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The Long Game with Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer
Based on Podcast App listening data
The Long Game with Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer episodes
- A Diesel Deal With Russia, a Dilemma for NATO, Houthis Escalate Saudi Arabia Attacks
President Trump has struck a diesel deal with Russia as fuel prices squeeze Americans. But what does easing restrictions on Russian exports mean for Ukraine and for efforts to end the war? Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer examine the deal’s potential economic impact, the growing tension between Washington and Kyiv, and the prospects for an energy ceasefire as winter approaches.
Then, renewed fighting between Saudi Arabia and the Houthis raises difficult questions about American commitments in the Middle East. With Saudi airports and energy infrastructure under attack, could the United States or Israel enter the fight? What could either accomplish?
Finally, an Options Memo for NATO’s Secretary General: How should the alliance respond if Russian sabotage kills civilians in a member country? Jake and Jon weigh “light,” “medium,” and “heavy” responses, exploring the challenge of restoring deterrence without triggering a wider war. Listen for the hard choices behind the headlines and the risks each carries.
Access to video versions of exclusive podcast segments, transcripts, and more on Substack: https://thelonggame.substack.com/
Watch the video version of this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@podlonggame
Email Jake and Jon at [email protected].
Follow The Long Game so you never miss an episode. New episodes drop weekly.
The Long Game is produced by the Vox Media Podcast Network.
References and supplemental materials
Gen. Alexus G. Grynkewich, Supreme Allied Commander Europe, NATO, Theory of Victory: How Do We Achieve Military Success Against Russia in Deterrence and Defence?, Warsaw Security Forum, October 12, 2026.
Feras Dalatey, “Amazon's AWS is unable to restore access to Bahrain, one UAE cloud data zone after war damage,” Reuters, September 15, 2026
Photo credit: Mohammed HUWAIS / AFP via Getty Images
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1 hr 17 min - How China Changed the Oil Market—and the Iran War
Javier Blas, Bloomberg Opinion’s energy and commodities columnist, joins Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer to explain why the Iran war has produced an oil market few expected: crude prices hovering around $100 a barrel while tankers are braving missile attacks, and sharper pain for people buying diesel, jet fuel, and heating oil.
How has China’s retreat from the oil market changed the pressure on Washington and Tehran? Why are some traders reluctant to bet on higher prices even when they fear escalation? And how long can the improvised system keeping oil moving through the Strait of Hormuz hold together?
Access to video versions of exclusive podcast segments, transcripts, and more on Substack: https://thelonggame.substack.com/
Watch the video version of this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@podlonggame
Email Jake and Jon at [email protected].
Follow The Long Game so you never miss an episode. New episodes drop weekly.
The Long Game is produced by the Vox Media Podcast Network.
Photo credit: Patrick T. Fallon / AFP via Getty Images
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1 hr 13 min - Anne Applebaum on the Grifters and Ideologues Reshaping US Foreign Policy
Anne Applebaum, Pulitzer Prize-winning author and staff writer at The Atlantic, joins Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer to discuss how far-right ideology and private profit have become intertwined in the Trump administration’s approach to the world; the subject of her new cover story for The Atlantic.
They also examine the opaque U.S. oil arrangements in Venezuela, the campaign for political influence in Greenland, and the difficult work of rebuilding American institutions and alliances after Trump.
For paid subscribers, Jake and Jon continue their conversation with Anne Applebaum. She details what changes to the White House and the Kennedy Center reveal about political power and culture in Washington.Subscribe to Long Game + on Apple or Substack for access and to support the show.
Access video versions of exclusive podcast segments, transcripts, and more on Substack: https://thelonggame.substack.com/
Watch the video version of this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@podlonggame
Email Jake and Jon at [email protected].
Follow The Long Game so you never miss an episode. New episodes drop weekly.
The Long Game is produced by the Vox Media Podcast Network.
Photo Credit: Viktor Kovalchuk/Global Images Ukraine via Getty Images.
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1 hr 4 min - The U.S.–China Relationship Is Moving in Two Directions
PHOTO CREDIT
China experts Jessica Chen Weiss, David M. Lampton Professor of China Studies at Johns Hopkins SAIS, and Julian Gewirtz, fellow at Harvard’s Belfer Center and senior research scholar at Columbia University, join Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer ahead of Chinese President Xi Jinping’s state visit to Washington.
What does Xi hope to secure from President Trump—and what should the United States seek in return? Could the current truce become a durable détente, or is the relationship moving in two directions at once: greater stability at the top and deeper competition underneath? And as concern grows about advanced AI, can Washington and Beijing reduce the risks without resolving their fundamental distrust?
The conversation also examines Taiwan, rare-earth export controls, China’s expanding global role, and the choices that could shape the relationship long after this week’s summit.
For paid subscribers, Jake and Jon break down President Trump’s United Nations General Assembly speech in a special segment. Subscribe to Long Game + on Apple or Substack for access and to support the show.
Access video versions of exclusive podcast segments, transcripts, and more on Substack: https://thelonggame.substack.com/
Watch the video version of this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@podlonggame
Email Jake and Jon at [email protected].
Follow The Long Game so you never miss an episode. New episodes drop weekly.
The Long Game is produced by the Vox Media Podcast Network.
Photo Credit:
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1 hr 8 min - U.S. Intelligence Under Assault and the High-Stakes AI Race With China
Julia Curlee, a former CIA analyst and acting senior director at the National Security Council, joins Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer to explain why she believes America’s intelligence system is being weakened from within.
Curlee also discusses her experience briefing Vice President Mike Pence and why she left government after nearly 20 years. After the interview, Then to argue for and against reaching a deal with the U.S. and continuing Beijing’s open-weight strategy.
Access video versions of exclusive podcast segments, transcripts, and more on Substack: https://thelonggame.substack.com/
Watch the video version of this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@podlonggame
Email Jake and Jon at [email protected].
Follow The Long Game so you never miss an episode. New episodes drop weekly.
The Long Game is produced by the Vox Media Podcast Network.
Photo Credit : Julia Curlee
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1 hr 20 min - 25 Years After 9/11: Admiral McRaven’s Warning for America
25 Years After 9/11: Admiral McRaven’s Warning for America
Retired Admiral William H. McRaven, former commander of U.S. Special Operations Command and Joint Special Operations Command, joins Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer as the country marks the 25th anniversary of 9/11. McRaven recalls watching the attacks while recovering from a parachute accident, and later planning and executing the operation that brought Osama bin Laden to justice.
They also examine why the Trump administration’s unexplained removal of senior military leaders could weaken candid advice and military preparedness; how special operations must adapt from counterterrorism to competition with major powers; and why America’s alliances remain essential to its security.
Access video versions of exclusive podcast segments, transcripts, and more on Substack: https://thelonggame.substack.com/
Watch the video version of this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@podlonggame
Email Jake and Jon at [email protected].
Follow The Long Game so you never miss an episode. New episodes drop weekly.
The Long Game is produced by the Vox Media Podcast Network.
Photo credit: TSgt Rob Hazelett, PublicDomain
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1 hr 8 min - Iran’s “Economic D-Day” and the US-Canada Rupture
Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent says the U.S. is entering “the endgame” with Iran, launching what he calls an “economic D-Day.” Closer to home, U.S.-Canada trade talks have collapsed after Prime Minister Mark Carney rejected Washington’s latest demands.
Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer examine whether Operation Economic Outcast can change Iran’s calculus, why China holds the key, and why Canadians are backing a trade fight they expect to hurt. They also stage a Red Team/Blue Team debate over President Trump’s new cyber memo, which allows private companies to conduct offensive operations against foreign cybercriminals. Jon makes the case for the so-called cyber privateers, while Jake lays out the risks.
Subscribe to The Long Game+ on Apple podcasts or on Substack for access to exclusive segments. This week, Jake and Jon tackle two listener questions: What should we make of CIA Director John Ratcliffe’s unannounced trip to Moscow? And, how did Jake and Jon manage the physical and mental toll of their years as national security advisors?
Video versions of exclusive podcast segments, transcripts, and more available on Substack: https://thelonggame.substack.com/
Watch the video version of this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@podlonggame
Email Jake and Jon at [email protected].
Follow The Long Game so you never miss an episode. New episodes drop weekly.
The Long Game is produced by the Vox Media Podcast Network.
Photo by ANDREJ IVANOV / AFP via Getty Images
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
1 hr 8 min - Corruption in a Shameless Age (with Patrick Radden Keefe)
Acclaimed investigative journalist and New Yorker staff writer Patrick Radden Keefe joins Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer to discuss his new book, London Falling.
They discuss London’s dirty-money economy, “Say Nothing” and the unfinished business of the Good Friday Agreement, whether the CIA helped spread the Scorpions’ “Wind of Change” behind the Iron Curtain, what a year inside the Pentagon taught Patrick about Washington, and why powerful people rarely see themselves as villains. At the end, Patrick, Jake and Jon share their summer reading list.
In an exclusive segment for subscribers to The Long Game+ on Apple or Substack: Patrick, Jake, and Jon examine how Trump-era impunity and outrage fatigue can normalize corruption.
Access to video versions of exclusive podcast segments, transcripts, and more on Substack: https://thelonggame.substack.com/
Watch the video version of this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@podlonggame
Email Jake and Jon at [email protected].
Follow The Long Game so you never miss an episode. New episodes drop weekly.
The Long Game is produced by the Vox Media Podcast Network.
Photo credit: Albert Llop/NurPhoto via Getty Images
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
1 hr 8 min - Can Europe Defend Itself Without America? Radek Sikorski on NATO & Ukraine
Polish Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Radosław “Radek” Sikorski joins Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer to assess Europe’s security at a moment of growing strain in the transatlantic alliance.
They discuss whether Europe can deter Russia with a reduced US military presence, how NATO should respond to Russian sabotage and possible false-flag operations, and whether America can still be counted on if Article 5 is tested.
Sikorski also lays out Ukraine’s possible path to victory, the pressure building on Russia’s economy, the prospects for tougher sanctions, China’s leverage over Vladimir Putin, and why he sees the European Union as a strategic shield for Poland and Ukraine.
Then, Jake and Jon discuss Sikorski’s strikingly cautious assessment of the US commitment to NATO—and revisit the closest they came to an Article 5 crisis while serving in the Biden administration.
For subscribers to The Long Game+ on Apple Podcasts: Jake and Jon break down the FCC’s new restrictions on foreign-made humanoid robots and connected power inverters—and what the action reveals about the widening US technology competition with China.
Subscribe to The Long Game on Substack for access to video versions of exclusive podcast segments, transcripts, and more: https://thelonggame.substack.com/
Watch the video version of this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@podlonggame
Email Jake and Jon at [email protected].
Follow The Long Game so you never miss an episode. New episodes drop weekly.
The Long Game is produced by the Vox Media Podcast Network.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
1 hr 2 min - Why Zelensky Fired His War Chiefs & Where Trump's Iran War Goes Next
Zelensky just fired his defense minister, his top general, and his prime minister in a single reshuffle — and thousands of Ukrainians poured into the streets. Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer unpack what's really driving it: a generational war over how to fight, Zelensky's wariness of rivals who outshine him, and a reckoning over corruption in military procurement. They trace how Ukraine's homegrown drone industry — now the front line of the war — grew out of a 2023 "tech sprint," and why it may soon make Ukraine one of the world's largest arms exporters.
Then, Iran. With the ceasefire dead and the Strait of Hormuz closed, Jake and Jon reopen their "options memo" — keep striking, cut a deal, go for a knockout blow, or walk away.
Subscribe to The Long Game on Substack for access to exclusive podcast segments, transcripts, and more: https://thelonggame.substack.com/
Watch the video version of this episode on YouTube.
Email Jake and Jon at [email protected].
Follow The Long Game so you never miss an episode. New episodes drop weekly.
The Long Game is produced by the Vox Media Podcast Network.
Photo credit: Danylo Antoniuk/Anadolu via Getty Images
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
54 min
About The Long Game with Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer
From the publisher's feed
The Long Game is a weekly national security podcast hosted by Jake Sullivan, President Biden’s National Security Advisor, and Jon Finer, his Principal Deputy—senior aides who sat in on the classified Presidential Daily Brief each morning and translated raw intelligence into policy advice. Each week, Jake and Jon will pull back the curtain on how power really works helping you make sense of the national security stories unfolding today.
Part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
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