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Holiday Magic

Rosie: [00:00:00] have a more festive, sweater on, but it was too hot, so I'm wearing, I was gonna be festive on top and then I'm literally wearing shorts on the bottom 'cause it's 72 degrees.

Welcome to the Moms for Social Justice podcast, where we talk about how you can make your community a more awesome place. This episode is about holiday overwhelm, and how it often falls to women to create the magic of the season, on top of everything else we already have to do. This imbalance in the distribution of household labor and care tasks can prevent women and mothers from engaging in projects that fuel them, like crafting something really cool, or volunteering for a cause that they're passionate about.

Mari, Taylor, and I talk about how our own parents did or did not split up these tasks and our own struggles in finding a balance in this holiday season with our partners. We also chat about how to establish standards with partners and family so that everyone, including us, has more time for holiday magic.

We hope [00:01:00] you enjoy this episode!

Rosie: . Welcome to the Moms for Social Justice podcast. Um, we are some of the moms for social justice. There's three of us, all three of us today. Moms for Social Justice is a progressive grassroots organization located in Chattanooga, Tennessee.

And we work to empower parents to fight for social justice and change in their own backyard. Um, so yeah, we, today we have Mari and Taylor. And, and me. I'm Rosie. Um,

and today we're gonna be talking about holiday overwhelm and the, mental load, the distribution of household labor around the holidays, all that stuff.

But before we get into that, um, we're just, we're just gonna talk about what's on our, on our heart. So, um, Mari, do you wanna go first? What's on your heart?

mari_1_11-17-2023_123740: Let's see.

Rosie: What's in your lungs?

Mari: Phlegm. [00:02:00] Phlegm is in my lungs. Yes. Just uh,

getting over,

Taylor: such a gross word.

Mari: isn't it? I kind of love it. It's like on a mono poetic, right? It's like,

Rosie: Oh yeah.

It sounds gross. . 'cause it is gross.

Mari: Anyway, um, I have that, I have phlegm from Covid. Uh, the whole fam has it. We're we're on the men though.

Um,

Rosie: We had that last Christmas. Speaking of like holidays

Mari: yes, this is the fourth time Covid has hit our house. Uh,

Taylor: Ugh.

Mari: first time it was just one of us. Then the second time it was three of us. Then the third time it was two of us. This time it was three of us. It's a lot. Um, anyway, but I think the biggest thing on my heart is just being super thankful for the vaccine. And I had just gotten the, the newest booster in early October, and I really think that is why I'm feeling so much better.

And,

Rosie: Mm-Hmm.

Mari: uh, you know, I'm just, I'm just very [00:03:00] thankful for science and I feel like,

Taylor: But Mari,

if you got the vaccine, you shouldn't have gotten Covid.

Mari: Well,

Taylor: Isn't that how that works?

Mari: I think

that's how that works.

Rosie: Same with the flu

Mari: But I, I did get Covid and I got a chip in my arm, so now I'm being tracked because

my phone wasn't enough. They didn't know that I was into art supplies and

liked fantasy romance books.

Taylor: from Mars?

Mari: the company or the, or the

Taylor: You want M and

mss?

Mari: I do,

Rosie: also. Yes.

Mari: dark chocolate Peanut M and mss Plug there. Yes. Anyway, I'm just super thankful. It's, it's a, a quick, easy thing, but I just feel like, you know, just a reminder that Covid is still around and that if you haven't gotten the booster and you're able to, please do because it, it helped me out a whole bunch.

Rosie: Yes. And it'll protect the more vulnerable members of your family, especially as we're like going around and

Mari: Mm-Hmm.

Rosie: and sneezing on [00:04:00] food and stuff.

Taylor: Yeah.

Rosie: I mean, not

Mari: Hug food.

Taylor: Double dipping in the

mac and cheese.

Rosie: I'm glad you're feeling better,

Mari: Thank you.

And I will be glad, uh, like we've all been home for the entirety

of this week and so that whole

Rosie: time to go somewhere.

Mari: they, they went out the window on day one. So

all of our brains are mush.

Rosie: Time.

It's nice outside. So, you know, shove 'em out there.

Taylor: Yeah. I am glad that you guys are coming on off the other side of that friend

and you.

look real cute, so we can tell you're feeling better.

Mari: Thank you.

Rosie: haircut.

Mari: I do have a good haircut. That's the only thing that made this whole week bearable, was the cute haircut.

Rosie: That's right.

Mari: studios

Rosie: Not sponsored, but also sponsored.

Um, all right, so Taylor, what's on your heart?

Taylor: You know, I have found that, you know, the, and I know I'm not alone here, the state of the world is just so incredibly overwhelming and heartbreaking that [00:05:00] I have found that I needed to take, you know, sort of mental Breaks,

Rosie: Yes.

Taylor: and I thought that's what I was doing when I tuned into, I mean, it's the number one show on Netflix right now. I think, uh, it's a docuseries about the internet cult twin Flame

universe.

Rosie: Whoa.

Taylor: Have you guys

Rosie: No, I never watch,

Taylor: about this?

Rosie: never watch documentaries on Netflix, so maybe I should I just listen to podcasts?

it. It sounds in very intriguing. I mean, all the cult stuff is like, yeah. Very intriguing.

Taylor: it's fascinating. Uh, I This is a whole other conversation how I feel like a lot of our, you know, mainstream religious culture in America is cult-like think and cult-like behavior that we have just

normalized. So we don't recognize it as that anymore. So it's interesting when they, um, highlight fringe cults because we have this collective, like that's so crazy that they believe that when you

stop to think about it, there are a lot of really [00:06:00] extreme beliefs that are just normalized. Um, but this one was a really Wild ride because it's a, a relatively, um, new cult that started in the pandemic. And so I thought

Rosie: Whoa.

Taylor: interesting that spoke to, and, and almost, um, exclusively online. So it spoke to number one, like the isolation that we all felt,

Rosie: mm-Hmm.

Taylor: in that, and particularly people who were alone going through, um, lockdown on their own, you know, sought these places online for, um, community and belonging and a sense of connection. And that can put you in a really vulnerable place where you can be sucked into something and then before you know it, you are thinking, um, really radical and extreme ideology and paying lots and lots and lots of money to people

who have zero credentials and unwarranted bravado and calling [00:07:00] themselves the master Christ. So anyway, it, uh, it was a really interesting watch, but also a really scary watch. And, um, it was what my brain needed to, you know, freak out about something else unrelated. So a highly recommended watch if you just wanna get real mad at average white boys, uh, taking lots

of

Rosie: that every day.

I do that every day.

Mari: morning average white boy, anger meditation,

Rosie: what shall I watch today? I've been watching the blue-Eyed Samurai on Netflix, so if you need something, it's like kill bill meets

Mari: Ooh.

Rosie: Um, it's really, really good. Also a very, not for children, I'd say animated very not for children, but anyway,

Taylor: noted

Rosie: recommended if you need more of an escape. Um, although it's very violent.

 Like we can, oh, I can watch the cartoon violence and it's fine, but, dealing with the, like social media violence is like too much for [00:08:00] me.

Mari: Ooh.

Rosie: Agreed. It's good to take a break from that stuff.

Mari: Yeah. It's hard to walk that line of like preserving our mental health, but staying

informed.

Rosie: Sure

Mari: And I think that's just been like a very, difficult thing to do really since, I don't know, even before 2016, really, just with the internet and with social media, it's just very hard. It's like you're either all in it and immersed in Feeling helpless and paralyzed, or every time something comes up, you just scroll because you can't, you can't deal with it In that moment. It's, yeah,

Rosie: well, the, the Washington Post released images of, uh, very graphic images of basically what an AR 15 could, can do, um, images, the aftermath of these mass shootings, Inc. Including, you know, some of these school shootings that we've, that we've seen after the bodies I think had been removed other than the Las Vegas.

Uh, seen and it's like [00:09:00] we're not necessarily the people that need to be seeing this , you know, like it's the, the people that are in power and the people that are advocating for keeping these guns, in, in our state and our nation, keeping them active that really need to see them. But, it's hard to balance of like, when do I need to like witness and understand versus when do I need to protect

my own mental health?

What, is it gonna be beneficial to me or not?

Yeah. That's

Mari: what is on your heart, Rosie?

Rosie: Oh, um, I, this week I have finished listening to all 500 albums on the Rolling Stones, 500 greatest albums of all time. It

Mari: Oh my gosh.

Rosie: all year,

Mari: is a

Rosie: was really fun.

Mari: It's been fun going on this journey with you sometimes in your car to various places

Rosie: Yeah.

Mari: hearing some of these

Rosie: Stevie Wonder album. Yeah.

Taylor: That's

Rosie: Um,

Mari: it

Rosie: yeah, I, I think it was, it was, it was fun and like I definitely have the privilege of a job [00:10:00] where I am moving squares and lines on a computer screen so that part of my brain can do that while my other part of the brain can like listen to song lyrics or podcasts or whatever.

Um, 'cause you know, the other, that's a lot of time to, so I'm, I'm curious what my Spotify rap is gonna look like at the end of the year. And then also just thinking about like, well, what challenge am I gonna do next? And my husband was like, well, you don't have to do a challenge. I'm like, yeah, I do.

What is my purpose? What is my, what do I, why do I exist in life if I don't have a challenge? Um, so yeah, I'm like, I'm weighing my, my options there. I can't do like two things, like watch a movie and design stuff that require, requires my eyeballs.

So,

 One, one of my favorite albums that I thought was, so, I just loved the concept of, and I just wanna share it with everybody. It's a Ray Charles album from 1962, and it is called Modern Sounds in Country Western Music. And he put this album together because at the time there [00:11:00] were black records and there were white records and never the two shall cross.

Um, so what he did is he took classic white country songs, dressed them up, took them to the orchestra, and played the shit out of them. And, um, they're amazing. Their arrangements are amazing. The instrumentation is amazing. His singing is amazing. I love that album and I love the concept behind it too. I thought it was so cool.

Um, so anyway, check that album out. That's one that you can pull from the list that I thought was great. I mean, there's so many that great.

Taylor: cool. I'm totally gonna do

that.

Mari: too.

Rosie: Okay, so we're gonna be getting into our topic, which is about the overwhelm of the holiday season and just how so much of this domestic labor and emotional labor falls on women, in, in households. And just, I'm just curious, like, what was it like when you guys were kids? What were the holidays like?

What did you see your parents doing or [00:12:00] not doing?

Mari: Most of the holiday magic did fall to my mom. In fact, a lot of times my dad would, uh, would not be home on Christmas Eve. That's when we

do like opening all of our gifts and stuff, because that's just our tradition. And every other year he would have to work and be on call. He had a cabin rental business and they went above

and beyond. So if someone couldn't get to their cabin because of snow, my dad literally drove them.

So

Rosie: I imagine a lot of people are like renting cabins for, you know, Christmas, get together or

Mari: yes, lots of people in Gatlinburg. Uh, so yeah, a lot of it fell to my mom. But it was being just me, you know, as an only child, like my mom and I, as I got older, we, she and I would really get into decorating together. We'd have so much fun. We would be making things for the theme that year. You know, we had, we really enjoyed that. Uh, but you know, as far as like. You know, all the piano [00:13:00] recitals and, and the, singing in church. Yes, I did that. mY, you know, she would be taking me to all the things, you know, if my, my dad was in the mood, he would go to church and listen, which, you know, now being how I feel about things, I would've never been in the mood to go to church, but

Rosie: He's like, I believe in Jesus today, but I don't know about

Mari: Every other day. No, not so much. Um, yeah, so it was mostly my mom. I don't really remember the holidays being too crazy hectic because I didn't have a very big family. It was just my great aunt that would come stay with us from New York City. She would come for like a month. I have amazing memories of it, but I, I do know that, like thinking back and doing it for my own family, I'm like, oh yeah, that was all my mom. , now my dad definitely took over all of the food.

Rosie: Hmm.

Mari: that was nice. You know, as far as like what we were gonna have for Christmas Eve dinner and Christmas morning breakfast and, and all that stuff. [00:14:00] He would, you know, buy all the stuff, play on the menu, make it, it would be delicious. And we just kind of showed up.

So I know that's a little bit different. Um, 'cause usually

that falls Yeah. Kinda wish that was still the case.

Rosie: And you guys don't have a theme every Christmas.

Mari: sometimes

Taylor: love that.

Mari: we would yes,

Taylor: Give us a couple of themes, Mari.

Mari: One was the secret garden.

Rosie: What?

Taylor: Stop it.

Rosie: cool,

Mari: We like collected, um, like chi, like China teacups and stuff from like different thrift stores. And we would incorporate the, I don't know, we were a little extra. Um, one year we did like

all

Taylor: can't tell that at all about you as an adult. I, I'm,

it's

Rosie: I know. I love that. I'm leading this podcast with two Christmas queens, so

Mari: Yeah,

Rosie: I feel like I should

Mari: atheist Christmas queens,

Rosie: leading it. Yeah,

Mari: Yes. I know. It's, it is funny. But yeah. Um, we, we went all in one year. We did like a crystal, but like [00:15:00] from old chandeliers, like

Rosie: Wow.

So you would decorate your trees like this, or like all throughout?

Mari: all throughout the

Rosie: Wow.

Mari: We

really only had one tree

Rosie: But that sounds so

Mari: I have graduated to having like five.

But

Rosie: Yeah. Exact Christmas queen,

. No, but I think that sounds fun. Especially knowing like your dad, he sounded like super busy during that time, so it was a lot of one-on-one time with you and your mom, and so that's cool that you guys were able to like build those memories together.

Um, Taylor, what about you?

Taylor: Well, uh, I do come from a very big family. So our holidays, uh, what I remember, were just incredibly chaotic. Lots of children running around. Um, lots of grown men screaming at the television,

watching football,, throwing furniture. I'm kidding. I mean, sometimes,

Rosie: Extreme

Taylor: But it, there was a definite gender division in labor, so I have very [00:16:00] strong memories of all of the women in my family at the time that my grandmother was alive.

You know, she was a, a really, a true matriarch, you know, in the center of the kitchen. But all of the daughters in-law, because my grandmother had four boys, and so it was all the wives,

Rosie: Mm.

Taylor: um, would all, would all be in the kitchen. all morning long and, lay out this beautiful absurdly, you know, huge spread.

If you can imagine what it is to cook for 40 people. We would all eat. There was the, you know, the, the proverbial kids' table

Rosie: Mm-Hmm.

Taylor: all of us were, were relegated to sometimes out in the garage. I remember the year that I graduated to the adult table was a, a big, big deal. Uh, but I get, I remember even as a kid feeling very frustrated that after all of that cooking, then all the women in my family also cleaned everything[00:17:00]

Rosie: Right, because the dads all had to go watch the game or whatever.

Taylor: absolutely fall asleep in their chairs watching football. And I remember having just a very. Strong sense of, injustice. I, I don't mean to use that word lightly, but even as a kid, that struck me as very unfair. And I knew that I did not want that as an

Rosie: Mm-Hmm.

Taylor: I will say, uh, as a mom and you know, as a wife myself, I. I will admit that a lot of the, the labor and like the emotional and um, just the mental load of planning the holidays and, planning the gifts, buying all the gifts, wrapping all the gifts, planning the menu, uh, planning. And we know that like the time around the holidays are just very busy. You, you take your kids to go see the Nutcracker, you take your kids to go see the Christmas lights,

to go to go visit

Rosie: done that yet.

Taylor: [00:18:00] all the things, there are, so there are all these little activities that

we do

Rosie: go along with it. Yeah.

Taylor: Yeah.

Um,

Rosie: It's not just the day. Yeah.

Mari: right?

It's the lead up. Yeah.

Taylor: So yeah, even though I, I really told myself as a kid that I was not gonna let all of that fall on my shoulders it,

it has, and part of it I will take some responsibility because I love it.

Rosie: Mm-Hmm.

Taylor: I love it. And I do have a, this, you know, feeling that I'm going to do it because I'm going to do it right.

Mari: Mm-Hmm.

Rosie: Mm-Hmm.

This is the way that I want it. Yeah.

Taylor: yes, if I relinquish control of, of, you know, orchestrating this, this masterpiece, the symphony of holiday magic, then it's not gonna be done, uh, the way that I want.

So I,

I

Mari: not be hung by the chimney with care. They will

be hung haphazardly in different

Taylor: out of order.

Rosie: on fire.

Taylor: So, [00:19:00] yeah, I, there there's, um. Yeah, there's personal responsibility, but then there's also, I think just, just the,

Mari: expectation.

Taylor: the expectation of, you know, the, the patriarchal structure that we have that these, uh, these duties fall on the mom. Now, I will say that the cooking and the cleaning is a little more divided, which I appreciate.

Rosie: , yeah, that's, that's interesting. 'cause I feel like mine is a blend of both of yours. In that, like, my dad did all of the holiday cooking, you know, for Thanksgiving and for Christmas. He enjoys that, especially like the baking part., And even like at the big get togethers, um, also like . Came from a big, big family, especially on my dad's side.

Um, it would be like my grandma in the kitchen with like my dad and my uncles, um, because I guess she like did an awesome job of like really imparting, you know, enjoyment of cooking [00:20:00] to her sons. Um, and my, and my aunt, her,

Taylor: I love that

Rosie: tHere's like a saying in my family like, don't be a Mary Jane.

'cause my grandma, she always, like, she never sits down. I mean she does now because she's in her nineties, but

Mari: She has to

Taylor: She has

earned

Rosie: has earned it. Yeah. But she would always just be like, you know, fu fussing with some other aspect of the meal or whatever. Um, and my mom, uh, being, uh, an RN working long hours, my dad took over quite a bit of the holiday magic.

He was the one who set up all of the lights outside and he would drive us around and look at all of the neighbor's lights and turn on Christmas music, um, and make sure that we had like Christmas treats and stuff like that. But I will say like, come Christmas time, he was just as surprised as we were when it came time to open the presents

Mari: Woo. You got that?

I mean, yes. Mm-Hmm?

Rosie: he, he, and, um, he and one of my uncles, they would [00:21:00] like, they would time each other, like, how quickly could they shop for their wives for Christmas? And my mom would like return basically every present, every year that he would buy. He did try, bless his heart. Growing up it was definitely, I felt more of like an even split. Um, and there were, there were instances like, you know, my mom would have to work Christmas Eve or uh, Christmas Day. And so we would, work around like her schedule and stuff.

We only went to midnight mass one time though, and that was because I, her, 'cause of her, she had to work Christmas Day. So then she, like, she stayed behind because she's not Catholic. And then, um, oh, when we came back, oh my god, Santa has been here. amazing. We can open presents and then we can all go to sleep 'cause mom's gonna work tomorrow.

Uh, stuff like that.

Mari: Santa

knew. Santa was like they needed it a little different time.

Taylor: Yeah,

Rosie: yes.

Taylor: it's the magic of

Santa.

Rosie: And so Taylor, I mean you talked about this a little bit, but how have you [00:22:00] split up tasks or not split up tasks now as an adult and like creating magic in your house? Because Yeah, you both are. Amazing at Christmas, and you do all of these, like, your houses are so cool and have like literal light shows and you have like multiple Christmas trees and all of these like events and traditions going up to that and like, yeah.

How, how do you divide that and how do you, how do you feel about it?

Taylor: When I was starting, the process of, of beginning our family, basically when I found out I was pregnant with my first son, I, you know, I started fantasizing about holidays because that's

Rosie: That's like the pinnacle to you? Yeah.

Taylor: Yeah, that's, that's something that I really love.

And, and the idea as a mother to be able to, you know, create these, um, experiences that what I hope will be really foundational and core memories. It's not about, um, it's not about the stuff and it's not about, [00:23:00] you know, the gifts or whatever. It, it's really, um, what I'm hoping is that my kids will have these memories where, there was just intense love and togetherness and, you know, shared experiences.

And so when I say that I, I have to take responsibility for the stress and the, the overload that I feel is because I take it on.

Rosie: Mm.

Taylor: if it were, you know, if it were up to my husband, it would be a lot more, paired down and.

Rosie: To be fair, he puts on an entire light show. Uh, then the front of your house. So, you know,

Taylor: Listen,

it's true. We, we all have hobbies. My, uh, it's funny, uh, both of our

mari and my husband's hobbies are elaborate. Um, LED light shows on our houses because they're big nerds,

Rosie: just a casual

Taylor: that's, [00:24:00] that's okay.

Rosie: a cool,

like,

Taylor: do, you know, do what brings you joy darling. And for him it's hours and hours and hours

building,

uh, an LED light show on our house.

But that's okay because that also has created a sense of togetherness and community within our neighborhood. And it's just a fun thing that I hope, you know, our kids will have really fond memories of.

Rosie: and maybe it's stressful for them, but you know, like you were saying, that's something that like, you have the things that you wanna take on and they have the things that they wanna take on, and there is like a partnership there and create, you know, creating this. Larger, I don't know, memory or, season.

Taylor: Yeah. Yeah.

Rosie: Is it the same in your house, Murray, where you take on more of the bulk of like the inside stuff?

Mari: Yes. And all of the planning and the, you know, whew. Yeah, it definitely mostly falls to me. aNd I wish it were a little bit different sometimes, and I don't think, you know, [00:25:00] we never sat down when we, you know, first got married and like, said, how are we gonna divide this up? You know? Uh, I, I feel like people have that misconception, and I know some people actually do do that, but I think of the majority of people, things just sort of happen and then once you're kind of locked into something, it's really hard to, to change.

Rosie: Yeah. I like my, you know, I've always folded my laundry this way. Okay. Well, never had a sit, never sat down and had a conversation with my husband about like, you know, do we actually need to fold it this way? Or can I just chuck it in a drawer? Yeah, those conversations, it, it's just like, yeah. Stuff, uh, happens more organically rather than sitting down and saying like, this is our vision.

Like this, this is how we want this to look for our family. , and being really intentional about it, which I think, you know, that's a, that's a hot tip. If you're feeling overwhelmed, maybe sit down with your spouse and say, have a conversation and say like, here's what's important to me. [00:26:00] Here's what's important to you.

Wow. I was stressed out about, about this thing that is not important to either of us, so let's get rid of it.

Mari: That's that's very true. , and I think one thing, like just during this conversation we are having, that sort of makes me sad and a little emotional. I don't know Rosie if this is similar for you, but, I don't wanna sound selfish, but I do feel like no one is making Christmas magical for us.

Rosie: Mm. Yeah. No

Mari: I know, and I don't know if you all have seen it's, it's a skit. And it's funny with the SNL skit where Kristen Wig gets the robe. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Rosie: Oh yeah,

Taylor: yes.

And mom got a robe

Mari: I got a this and I got this and I got this robe

Taylor: and it still has the

Mari: and it

has the tag, and it was 40% off. And then she's like, they're talking about their stockings, and she's like, and mine's completely empty, just [00:27:00] a sock hanging on the, you know, like,

Rosie: To be fair, I don't make it magical for my husband either, so. We, we mutually do not make it magical for each other.

Mari: that's, that's true. But I also feel like, I don't know how to put it. It's not, it's not really, it's even being allowed to have the time and the space to maybe do things

that

Rosie: I wanna go to Rock City and see the lights by

Mari: yeah. Or even like I, you know. For me, I would love to just like listen to Christmas music and soap, my tea and maybe read, or, you know, it's not even like I'm, it, it's a, yeah, it's having that time. But the problem is, is all of the time is full with

making it magical for everyone else.

Rosie: Okay. So that, that brings, I was like looking at researching this a little bit beforehand and this list drove me nuts. So it was an article about like how to, how to deal with the overwhelming holidays. Here's five helpful tips that [00:28:00] you could do, um, carve out time for yourself each week. Journal exercise, ask for help and seek counseling.

And I'm like, none of those things. And, and, and the counseling one was like, yeah, you're feeling really overwhelmed right now and like maybe you should talk to a therapist about it and like maybe talk to your spouse about this. Like, none of those things can happen without having a, a supportive partner

to actually like carve out time for your space for yourself.

You cannot do that if, if you have kids and there's nobody else to hold up the house for you while you do that.

Taylor: And, and the, the extra money to do that.

I mean, that, that's something that

we're not even kind of talking

about here is, you know, the,

Rosie: Financial

Taylor: financial pressure

of the holidays.

To some extent, we have to acknowledge that we're coming from a place of, of, you know, privilege that we can even talk about

having holiday stress because,

you know, we have the ability to have, take our kids

to these [00:29:00] experiences and, and buy them gifts.

And so, you know, let's, let's take some time and space to acknowledge that for some people the pressure of the holidays is to make any sort of

holidays. Yeah, Rosie, I can see why you would be so frustrated by that list when all of that suggests time and money that are non-existent in this season of the year.

Rosie: Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. And I will say, so like my, my husband and I, we, we have never sat down and, you know, had that conversation of this is what we want it to look like. But it's been a gradual, like all these smaller conversations and gradual nudge, like the big Christmas meal, honestly, I don't give a fucking shit about that

All I care about is the Christmas log that I make, or like some sort of fancy dessert. But we can go to

Taylor: What's a Christmas

Rosie: a yuel log, it's like a cake,

and, and then you roll, you put mousse in it, and then you roll it, and then you decorate the outside with ganache. My dad [00:30:00] makes it every year. But the thing is, here's the big thing for us.

We do not go home, uh, to Cincinnati where both of our families are live. We do not go for Christmas, we go for Thanksgiving.

Mari: Mm-Hmm.

Rosie: We do go not, we don't go for Christmas. Part of that is like weather. We're worried about weather, and part of it is just like, it's really stressful to do that and to like,

if we're hauling presents and yeah, how do we fit that in?

And all of the travel and stuff. We, we did that before. Um, we had kids, um, every year and it was just, my husband's parents are divorced, so then in inevitably with these big holiday events, you're going to like three or four or more of, you know, different dinners or lunches or events or whatever. , and so just like

Uh, honestly, I love Christmas. I love my family and you know, if they came here and hung out with us, that would be wonderful. But I love Christmas because it's just for us. I love the magic [00:31:00] of Christmas for me is like waking up at the ash crack of dawn on Christmas morning and, you know, we can barely talk 'cause our throats are like, our voices are so froggy and watching our kids open presents and then just like playing with our kids all day.

And like me not cooking, that's like my ideal Christmas.

Taylor: I love that.

Rosie: Um, and like, you know, watching Christmas movies, like doing nothing

is great. And so it, it's just been a gradual move toward that. Um, and it, like, my husband does not give a shit about Christmas at all. Like obviously he cares for our kids and he wants them to have a good experience and good memories and get Christmas gifts and stuff like that.

 I, I'm the one similarly, like, I'm the one who caress a little bit more about some of those, like making magic and tradition. So I'm the one who decorates the outside of our house, and I'm the one who, we have a tradition every year where, we'll, we'll get like cookies and we'll drive around and like, we'll go to your houses and look at the , the Light Show[00:32:00]

and look at the other neighbor's houses and stuff like that. Um,

Mari: aren't as cool as ours.

Rosie: yeah. Or, but like

Mari: I'm kidding.

Rosie: not, no, they're not. Let's be, let's be clear they're not. It's cool. Um, but you know, like I'll buy, you know, and we might do like one thing of Christmas baking or something like that. Um, or I'll buy the, like Trader Joe's build a gingerbread house.

Everything's already baked for you. . I'll do that. Um.

Taylor: are solid. The TJ gingerbread houses are solid.

Rosie: Yes. They are literally solid

Mari: Literally solid

Taylor: don't wanna eat

Rosie: You don't wanna eat them.

Taylor: you can actually build a structure out of them. Yeah. You know, I'm curious about, um, our kids' perceptions of things

because, um, you know, this happened recently about a, I don't know, a couple of weeks ago, whenever a career date was for our kids that my boys. Just very[00:33:00] nonchalantly said to me, well, we didn't ask you to come to career day mom, 'cause you don't have a job.

Rosie: Hmm?

Taylor: And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

whoa.

Mari: Let's have

a conversation, boys.

Taylor: we're gonna have a, we're gonna have a life lesson here,

boys. Let's talk about the value of unpaid

Mari: Mm-Hmm.

Rosie: Right.

Taylor: I had to have that conversation with them that, the work that I do in our home makes our lives, uh, possible.

It makes your dad's, uh, career

possible. I, make sure that you have everything in your life that you need and that you get to your doctor's appointments and therapy appointments and school and haircuts and you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. and and then as the holiday season's coming upon us, all of that falls squarely on my shoulders as well. And, you know, I, I make that stuff magical for you. When I go back to the paid working force and then so many women who are in the paid working force, and then also do

[00:34:00] all of these things that I'm describing, um, it's just really interesting the perception that our kids have of the labor that we're doing and the value of it. And I think it's our our shared

responsibility to make sure that they understand that What we're doing comes at high, high cost, both in time, energy, and, uh, has it, it brings a lot of value to their lives and their childhoods.

Mari: Mm-Hmm.

Rosie: Well, and like, you know, as they get older, you talk about Mari like spending time with your mom make, like making some of this magic with her, which in of, in that in of itself is magic.

 But like I know my daughter . She loves the holidays, she's always asking to decorate. I always get, compared to my sister who's like, also just like queen of all like birthdays and parties and events and stuff, holidays, stuff like that.

And I'm at the opposite of that. And you know, she'll, [00:35:00] she'll make comparisons like, why can't you be more like aunt , but like this past Halloween that she wanted to decorate the outside of the house, which we have standard, you know, decorations or whatever. And I was, I was just really busy. And so I'm like, okay, we'll get to it.

We'll get to it. And so what happened is like one day she and the neighborhood kids, they like, I'm like, if you guys wanna go in the garage and like get that stuff out, you go for it. And they did it. They, you know, I did some after and but, but they put out like the bulk of the main decorations

Taylor: That's so fun.

Rosie: Yeah.

And it's like the same thing for the, you know, in inside stuff too. And like, let's do it together. Um, and I, but again, like that's one of the things, like I have a table that I put a couple decorations on and like a Christmas tree and that's it. Oh. And I like a soap dispenser in the bathroom and that's it.

Um,

Mari: goodness,

Rosie: soap dispenser is key. It's 'cause it's, 'cause we saw it a target a few years ago and then we got big [00:36:00] dreams of like, what if we decorated the whole bathroom for Christmas? And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Maybe this like hand towel and a

Taylor: Slow down. Ha. Yeah,

Mari: Oh, I, as, as you're saying this, I just did the, our bathroom with a Christmas shower curtain

Rosie: Oh

Mari: that I swapped out. Yep.

Rosie: Yeah. But the thing is like,

Mari: this point,

Rosie: I, like, I don't, I don't care about that stuff as, as much. Um, and that's neither good nor bad.

Mari: No, exactly.

Rosie: is what It is.

Mari: It is.

Rosie: Um, but eliminating that pressure from myself has made me talking with my husband, it's like, well, what is, how are you gonna enjoy it yourself?

And it's like, oh, if I don't have to cook,

Mari: right?

Rosie: that's great for me. I would enjoy that. That would make the day good for me. The other, the other thing that I wanna talk about too is, family relationships. Because again, that's something that often falls to moms, to the women of the house, is like upholding these relationships with family members.

 And I'm wondering

[00:37:00] what your experience with that is, because that is another thing that I've, I've let go of a lot in order to like be more at peace. And honestly, like, if I had more time, I think I would do more of these things. But like, when it comes to family relationships, if, if I'm invested in that person, then I will make it a

priority to continue that relationship or reach out or whatever.

But if that person is not continually like reaching back to us and like . You know, and if it's a member of his family, I'm gonna let that go

like that's on you husband if you wanna

maintain that relationship. But they're not making an effort here, so I'm not gonna make an effort either.

Mari: I think that at the beginning of our relationship, I thought that was my duty because I'd seen my mom do it.

Rosie: Mm-Hmm?

Mari: and other female family members do that for their families. As I've gotten older, I have, I've let more of that go and kind of said like, if this is [00:38:00] important to you, you can keep these, these communication lines open. You know, who are we sending gifts to? Whatever it

is. That does kind of take a conversation though, because

for a little while in between. There was some like resentment of like, a few days before being like, well, I thought that was, you know, I didn't know that we were going to this event and, uh,

you didn't communicate to anyone .

So I, I've gotten better, but I do think, that's, that's something that, I don't know, the resentment and some of, there's some underlying anger

I think. Like, and, and it's not just having to do with family members and stuff, but I think sometimes that brings it out. But just around this whole conversation is we probably all do in different ways and just the mental load in general, because it seems so invisible. But yeah, I, I definitely feel like, doubt that, my husband has like some underlying anger issues around the holidays

Rosie: [00:39:00] Mm.

Mari: feels like too much is expected of him, you

know,

Rosie: right, right. Yeah. Well, and like to, to your point, Mari, like I, I often go take the kids to Cincinnati by myself because my husband, his work, he gets Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Year's off, and those are his three holidays. Like he doesn't have a lot of . Extra PTO and time off and like, you know, he can't take a long weekend 'cause he doesn't get that day off.

So I'm often the ones taking them up to see family and then I'm, that means that I end up being the one responsible for maintaining those ties.

And that means I'm the one that gets yelled at if I don't see so and so while I'm in town or if I don't go to such and such event or whatever. Like my husband's dad, I don't see him when I go to Cincinnati because he doesn't make an effort

to like maintain a relationship with our family. if my husband wants to maintain that relationship with his dad, then by all means [00:40:00] that's his relationship and not mine.

Taylor: Sure.

Rosie: Is that also the case Taylor, with, with you, where you're feeling like, or is it more evenly?

Taylor: yeah, you know, my, my husband has a small family,

Rosie: Mm

Taylor: I'm the one with the big family,

so

yeah. It's on.

Rosie: There's more pressure just because of the size of your family?

Taylor: Yeah.

Yeah. Being the, the only girl in my family and the eldest, I. I do feel just a lot of personal responsibility to keep family communication lines,, open and, I, am often, well, I notice that it's always the women, myself and my sister-in-Law

Rosie: Mm-Hmm.

Taylor: mother,

um, orchestrating gatherings and birthdays and,

you know, the things that, you know, mari to, to kind of what you were saying.

It's like, I think the holidays often come because the mental and emotional load of the holidays, it, it heightens, it's on top of everything

that we already do.[00:41:00] I think you're right sometimes those underlying, why is this always on me? Why does this fall on me all the time?

Rosie: Mm-Hmm.

Mari: I the only one who caress about this? Why?

Yeah.

Rosie: Mm-Hmm.

Taylor: uh, those feelings sometimes seep out and I think that's really important to keep, Tabs on just with within yourself. Like if you find it, I think it's natural for those feelings to, come out here and there. But if you have

a really overwhelming sense of there is too much that is falling on me to where you cannot enjoy your, um, the

season that you're supposed to also feel love and happiness and together togetherness with your family.

If that's not an enjoyable thing for you, then I think it's worth sitting down with your,

with your partner and journaling.

Mari: just kidding.

Rosie: about it.

Taylor: Have

Rosie: hate

Taylor: cup of tea.

Mari: That helpful list. Please

share that in the show notes so we can all benefit from journaling and, [00:42:00] and exercising

Taylor: Oh,

Rosie: going to therapy to bitch about our partners that we can't talk to.

Mari: Right?

What if we each kind of said something, maybe we were gonna do this holiday season as it's starting to, to edge toward pandemonium that, to maybe alleviate some of this. And I, I hate that it's us and it usually is like the person

Rosie: Mm-Hmm.

Mari: who feels the most overwhelmed,

Taylor: Mm-Hmm.

Mari: has to be like. I'm gonna read this book called Fair Play and figure out a Better System.

Rosie: It's a great bug.

Mari: And it's a great book. We, yeah, we did a, a workshop on it. It was really cool.

Rosie: Well, I, I was gonna to piggyback on that. I was gonna ask how are you gonna create some magic for yourself

Mari: Yes. I love

Rosie: season?, I'm gonna buy a really nice journal for myself.

Mari: and

never open it.

Taylor: I have so many unopened journals, y'all and calendars.

Mari: Yeah.

Taylor: Alright,

Rosie: my gosh, that does, that just ruined [00:43:00] me of a present. I do need to get my husband, I got him a dog shitting calendar last year, so it's like illustrations of it, like a family skiing and then there's like a golden retriever. Who's pooping in the background?

Taylor: I love that.

Rosie: So I gotta see if there's a new one. Um. Well, I wanna say I today be at, you know, thinking about that we were gonna have this conversation, I did reach out to my husband because we do not have a very cool LED light show in our hou in front of our house, but we do have lights and every year there's like strands that are broken.

And it's overwhelming because I don't really don't wanna go out and spend more money on more strands that are just gonna break next year. So I send him a text and I was like, Hey, this feels really overwhelming to me and I want, uh, our front of our house to look kind of nice and I never feel good about it.

And do you think you can help me with this? Whether like we can repair the lights or do something different that will, that, that will be satisfactory. , him being [00:44:00] awesome was like, sure, we can do that. I don't know how much we can do, but we'll figure it out.

Taylor: That's awesome.

Rosie: Um, and so.

Mari: just sharing some of that like burden, like that's something you are thinking about that's stressing you out, that no one would know was stressing you out unless you voiced it. yeAh, so I mean, to get back to that great list, it did say ask for help. So I,

I do feel like, but I, I, I hate that it's framed. Ask for help. I think it should be more like, let

your partner and your family know like

Rosie: Expectations.

Mari: about. Yes, exactly. And like, yeah, like you said, having that conversation of like, we don't, neither of us care about this thing.

Why are we even doing it?

Like, I would say this year, I'm, I'm, I'm leaning toward that with the Christmas cards, which

Rosie: Oh, I don't do Christmas

Mari: I know a lot of people don't, a lot of people don't. And I, I don't know, I don't know what I'm feeling this year, but part of me is like, what would it look like if I let that go and [00:45:00] didn't

Rosie: like it

Taylor: Oh,

Rosie: okay,

Mari: It might be okay.

People

Rosie: but I do

Mari: know that we exist

Rosie: I do like receiving

Mari: I do too. I do too, but,

Rosie: I'm not gonna send you one though.

Mari: right. No,

I know

Rosie: graphic designer too, so people are always so surprised. I'm like, you don't send Christmas cards? I'm like, no, it's the last thing I wanna design.

Mari: Right.

Taylor: I'm one of those that sends them like every four years or so. And so.

it just shocks people. They're like, Oh, Oh.

Mari: They, they're still

around

Taylor: You're

still

Mari: have a baby?

Rosie: I think you should try letting it go this year

Mari: Yeah, I might.

Taylor: we give you permission, Mari,

let it go.

Mari: you friends.

Taylor: I, what I did already is, , my husband God, love him. He really tries, for me with gifts and he is, uh, creative and, and, has come up with some interesting things. But I basically just laid it out to him this year. I was like, look, I don't want gifts. I want this thing for the house.

Mari: Hmm.

Taylor: That, that's what will bring me [00:46:00] joy. It will bring our entire family joy. This

Rosie: Wait, what? I'll, I

Mari: is it?

a giant fountain statue of

Taylor: of myself.

Mari: of

Taylor: Oh, it's myself as

Mari: and Jesus.

Taylor: I'm getting our, our fireplace has

never worked.

 sO we are getting gas, logs, which

I know people have different feelings about that. And that's fine. It's on a remote. I can turn it on and it will not make my entire house smell like smoke. So

Mari: Yay.

Rosie: yay.

Taylor: I'm very excited.

Mari: I love that.

Taylor: Thank you.

So you can

Mari: for a cozy winter.

Rosie: Mm-Hmm? . Mm-Hmm.

Taylor: cup of tea with me

by the, by the fake fire. Um, before I wanna know everybody's favorite holiday movie though.

Mari: Oh, that's important. Okay. Can we, can I do mine by like kids nostalgia one and like adult like deep in the feels One.

Rosie: Wait, hold on. I gotta look up the list. I'm not a movie

Mari: Oh my gosh. She has to look up a list. Taylor, [00:47:00] why do we even, why do we even

try with Rosie?

No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Okay, so favorite kids? Nostalgic. Like, as soon as I hear the music, I'm like, it's Christmas is home alone. But my favorite, like adult watch it without the kids, like just sob on my own is the family stone, which I feel like is a little bit of a

un like un

Rosie: Mm-Hmm. . I haven't seen that one.

Mari: Oh, Sarah Jessica

Parker. Claire Danes.

Taylor: It's so good.

Mari: Uh, oh my gosh. It's so good. It's funny. And also you sob. That's the, that's what

I want out of a

Rosie: you cry

Mari: Oh, you don't just cry, you

Rosie: Oh, I don't like those . It's too many feelings.

Mari: I, I love, oh, right, we talked about this. I love feelings. I have a lot of them. I wanna see other people having feelings. I wanna participate in their feelings.

Taylor: promote big

Mari: Mm-Hmm? . Yes.

Taylor: Um, okay, so my childhood favorite is the Muppet Christmas

Carol.

Mari: yes.

Taylor: [00:48:00] And my kids live it too now.

And I love it when my, when my kids are walking around the house going where? Marley and Marley. Yes, I

have succeeded. And then, I'm sorry. I love Christmas vacation..

My husband and I quote it, you know,

Mari: Why is the carpet all wet? Todd

Taylor: don't know. Margot.

Mari: Yours?

Rosie: have not seen Christmas vacation.

Mari: Oh no. We've done a bad

Taylor: Holy shit. Rosie.

Rosie: Yeah. I don't watch a lot of, um, I would just, let's see. My favorite kids one is the Year Without a Santa Claus.

Mari: Okay.

Mm-Hmm? , Franken and Bass.

Rosie: yes,

I loved all of, all of those. Actually. I really loved the Easter one too.

Mari: They're, they're precious. That's

like taking it way back.

Rosie: That's taken way back. Yeah. It's on an adult movie, but I do really love the new, what is it?

Klaus Klaus.

Mari: Oh,

Taylor: Oh

yeah.

Rosie: animated

Mari: one

that I cried. Love that.

Rosie: Um, yeah, I love the animation. [00:49:00] I love the art direction and the story is, is great. So they're both, both things I named for kids movies. That's, that's where I'm at.

Mari: what? If we get together this season, we can watch the family stone and we can watch Christmas vacation.

Rosie: That's right. Wait, I, uh, before we end, I wanted to ask, is it, did you have an idea of a way that you're gonna create magic for yourself? I was thinking I was gonna get myself an advent calendar 'cause I've never gotten one for

Mari: Ooh.

Taylor: Oh,

Mari: Ooh.

Taylor: I love that.

Mari: one. Do you know about the Bon Ma? Mom? Mont? Oh my gosh.

Bon Maman

Rosie: Oh,

Mari: Jam

Rosie: oh, it's jam.

Mari: you know that brand with the checkered

Rosie: My sister got it last year. 'cause her, her birthday is, uh, either like on or right around like this year, it's the day before Thanksgiving and last year she got the jam calendar. That's what

Mari: I'm not gonna lie.

Taylor: so instead of Jelly of the Month,

Mari: Right? I know. Every time

Rosie: of the day.

Mari: I think [00:50:00] about that. I do. But the cool thing is like, one of 'em was like strawberry chocolate cardamom, like spread

like they're, they're really, they're bougie

Rosie: Or like passion fruit, like, 'cause we don't have that here.

Taylor: Wow.

Mari: I know. Anyway,

yes. I

love the idea of an advent calendar.

Taylor: I think I'm gonna do that for myself too. I always see the chocolate ones and I'm like, my kids wouldn't like those, but

I would like that.

Mari: you would love that. I think, I wanna try to like, year before last, Ryan and I were like, we need to watch some of the movies that like, we don't necessarily watch with the kids, but like, you've got mail, kind of a Christmas

Rosie: Oh yeah.

Taylor: Mm-Hmm.

Mari: and we just watched it one night together and like, we were just cackling and you know, like it was, it was so

nostalgic and nice. Yeah. Like, I don't know, I feel like there's so many new things to watch

on shows,

Rosie: adult

Christmas movie night.

Mari: An adult

Rosie: More than just cuddles on the couch.

Taylor: Oh

Rosie: don't come down. Kids[00:51:00]

Mari: don't come down the chimney

Oh man. The Triple X mo No, I'm kidding. That is not what we'll be doing,

um,

Taylor: I saw mommy kissing Santa Claus.

Mari: But maybe

Rosie: bike

Mari: Ma. Magic Mike. That

Rosie: Honey,

I want you to do this

Mari: please. I don't,

Taylor: All right, y'all. This has devolved something that I like very much.

Mari: I thought you were gonna scold us and you're like, no, this is great. Keep going. Okay. So yeah, so maybe taking time like with my husband to kind of do some fun holiday ish stuff to make magic for both of us.

Rosie: Oh yeah. Like a holiday, A Christmas day. Actually, there's, um, there's an organization,

Mari: called a Christmas date,

probably

Rosie: I was gonna say there's a company called The Dating Initiative in Chattanooga and you can like, hire them [00:52:00] to like plan out a date for you so that that can take Yeah, so that's not on you or

Mari: Hmm.

Rosie: You're the magic just happens.

Um,

so maybe look into that. I, I also wanted to plug, um, if you need some like resources and feeling overwhelmed in like how to have these conversations with your spouse. There is the book Fair Play, which is more, it's not, you know, just about Christmas, but includes, you know, one of the things it talks about is Holiday Magic being a task. And there are, um, there's a podcast called Time to Lean, and they talk, uh, primarily about the division of household labor and they have come out with a, it's called The Time to Lean, thriving for the Holidays Toolkit. So they have this like downloadable, you have to pay for it, but it's like a downloadable toolkit of different.

Activities or prompts or questions that you can do with your partner in order to feel good about the holiday season and not feel overwhelmed [00:53:00] and be on the same page?

Taylor: I would like to challenge, uh, our listeners to leave comments with, Christmas movies, that they turn into adult themes. 'cause that sounds fun to me. How we were doing just

a moment ago. I feel like the possibilities are endless.

Mari: Oh

Rosie: what? Like a kid's Christmas movie that you make A adult . Is that what you mean?

Taylor: You take it how you want. Rosie

Rosie: Okay. An aside, you know how . How, uh, prince , prince Tuesday and Daniel Tiger is always doing like, he has so many odd jobs around the neighborhood

Taylor: Mm-Hmm?

Rosie: and I always joke with my husband that it's 'cause he is trying to get weed money and

Mari: Prince Tuesday does seem like. That would be

Taylor: That tracks. That

Rosie: babysits, he coaches a baseball team. He works at the grocery store. He does it all.

Mari: he does it all for that weeded

money. [00:54:00]

Rosie: He is a teenager.

Mari: how this episode has devolved

Taylor: Tiz tis the season to do what makes us happy y'all.

Mari: Rosie. You're gonna have a, a bear of a time editing this one.

Rosie: Rudolph is gonna get lit 'cause he literally is

Taylor: I thought you were gonna say laid. Let's, let's hope that

Rudolph gets lit and

laid

Rosie: he, I think he does though with Clarice.

Mari: Yeah,

Rosie: Because he gets, he's a grownup deer by the end of it. Right.

Taylor: Listen,

Rosie: And they have a relationship.

Mari: He's a full grown buck.

Rosie: Santa needs more lights for his leg. And that's only gonna happen

Mari: The closet meter has

Taylor: y'all, I'm gonna have to go Cool down.

Mari: Woo.

Taylor: All right.

Rosie: All right. Well, thanks for joining us on this episode, . Love you too. Um, thanks on Holiday Magic for [00:55:00] yourself. And yeah, see what's on your list that you can let go of and talk to your spouse about it too. You know, get on the same page with your spouse. I think that's key.

Taylor: Absolutely. Happy holidays y'all.

Rosie: Happy holidays,

Mari: Happy holiday. This Okay magic Mike. Go make that holiday Magic comma Mike

Taylor: woo.

​

This was a bit of a longer chatty episode, but we hope you enjoyed it and also that you feel encouraged to create more boundaries and have those conversations with your partner or family about what you want the holidays to look like so that everyone can enjoy it. You can find resources mentioned in this episode in the show notes.

Moms for Social Justice is a 501c4, and if you would like to support us, you can also find a link to do that in the notes as well. I'm gonna go look up some Christmas movies to watch, and we'll see you [00:56:00] back here in two weeks.

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To learn more about our work or to support us, visit our website at https://www.momsforsocialjustice.us/

Moms for Social Justice is a 501(c)(4).

Transcript:

Ep 4 // When a Loved One Takes Their Life

[00:00:00] This is the Moms for Social Justice podcast, where we talk about how you can make your community a more awesome place. In this episode, Taylor and I discuss a very heavy but important topic, depression and suicide. We both have our own experiences with this, and we wanted to bring this into the light in hopes that it will encourage discourse and help others feel more comfortable addressing these issues with their own loved ones.

Before we start the episode, I just need to remind everyone that neither Taylor nor I are mental health or medical professionals. If you or a loved one is dealing with depression or suicidal ideation, please seek professional help. We want you here. We'll provide some resources in the notes along with the episode.

Um, I just want to thank Taylor for sharing her experience and our awesome MSJ community for sharing all of theirs. Let's start the episode.[00:01:00]

Rosie: welcome to the Moms for Social Justice Podcast. Um, today, uh, Taylor and I, it's just the two of us. We're gonna be having an intimate conversation about depression and suicide. So big trigger warning, um, at the top of this episode.

And if you feel like it's not right for you to listen right now, that's okay. Um, we are here for you and we love you. We are Moms for Social Justice. We're a progressive grassroots organization located in Chattanooga, and we work to help and empower parents to fight for social change in their own backyard.

Taylor, do you wanna talk about what's on your heart and mind right now before we get into this deep topic? It's like, it's so heavy,

Taylor: and yeah, you know, I wish what was on my heart and mind [00:02:00] was a little bit lighter given the topic that we're about to delve into. But I'm just, I'm going to be transparent about what, what is really at the forefront of my heart and mind. And that's just, you know, the state of the world.

Rosie: Hmm.

Taylor: you know, it's hard to go about our daily tasks knowing that, you know, on the other side of, of the world, , there is just this, this humanitarian crisis.

And Again, this is one of those topics that it's hard to talk about and it's, you know, it's tricky and nuanced and we, sometimes avoid those conversations because we don't quite know exactly what to say or even understand the complexity of, of the history and what's happening. And it's not important to know or be an expert in matters of foreign policy.

You can still care about the suffering of, of innocent

Rosie: Mm-Hmm.

Taylor: On either [00:03:00] side of, of, you know, respective, uh, borders. And that really is what's on my heart right now when I tuck my, you know, kids in at night is I'm so grateful that they are healthy and they are safe and my heart just is broken for the moms, uh, around. The world who do not have that safety when they are putting their kids to bed at night.

Rosie: The Daily, the New York Times podcast, uh, released, voices from Gaza episode and you could hear missiles blasting in the background of these conversations. And people are just huddling and trying to survive and, it feels, I don't know, you don't wanna be a keyboard warrior. There's like not much else that you can, that you can do other than, staying vigilant.

 I think it's important to be a witness [00:04:00] to historic moments like this so that you can recognize when people are being denied peace and happiness in your own area and what you can do to remove obstacles for people.

Taylor: Yeah, I mean, that's the sad thing about war is it's often, you know, the innocent, um, often women and children who bear the brunt of it, uh, and, and have no responsibility in the conflict at all. , for those of us here, Rosie, you know, what you were, what you were saying, it's hard to know what to do.

You know, we could spend our time on social media, you know, debating the ins and outs of all of these things. And that, is defeating and in some ways, um, really debilitating to our mental health. And I saw something yesterday that really spoke to me that if you, um, find yourself feeling Just really helpless and overwhelmed by the state of the world. You're not, you're not [00:05:00] alone. There's a, there's a term for that. It's called empathy distress.

Rosie: Okay.

Taylor: Yeah. It's something, you know, that's very real for those of us who have, , empathetic hearts. And I think that often, we as mothers identify with, with having a lot of empathy for, you know, the people around us. it's important to recognize when you're feeling that way, when you're feeling hopeless and, and overwhelmed about things happening that are outside of your realm of control. To take a step back, pull those in your inner circle, close, um, and take care of your heart and your mind, because you are not going to be, uh, any help to anyone if your mental and emotional health isn't a serious state of decline.

Rosie: It feels like we, you know, it, it's a, it's a difficult space for us to try to, to navigate or like to have a say, but as mothers we can say that like, this is not okay on, on either side for innocent people to be, be [00:06:00] losing their lives.

So, um, yeah, it's, it's really heavy. But yeah, I think that's, that's a great point. Uh, uh, you said it was empathy distress.

Taylor: Yeah.

Empathy, distress.

Rosie: hadn't, heard of that before, but, um, yeah, that's,

Taylor: it was empathetic distress.

Rosie: Empathetic

Taylor: to look

Rosie: distress. Yeah. . No, that's, that's good. Good to know and good to know, like your own limits and when you need to step, step back from that.

Taylor: And what

about you, Rosie? What's on your heart right now?

Rosie: okay. So it's like totally the opposite direction, but somewhat, maybe, somewhat related. I'm going camping this weekend. My, uh, daughter is a cub scout and so it's their like. Cub Scout camp out weekend. Um, our Cub Scout area council, they own a property, , about two hours away. So that's where this is taking place.

And I did it last year. It was my first time ever camping and I brought both kids with me because I was like , I'll give my husband a weekend away, um, by himself and [00:07:00] I'll take the kids camping and we'll have a great time. I did not know, I did not know . There's so

Taylor: know what you don't know. Rosie

Rosie: what, I dunno.

It's so many people. There's, it's like, it's not just a, our little pack, it's like all of the packs that are part of the area. So it's a ton of people. And they have like different campsites on the property. So like, your pack is assigned a campsite. So like we get signed in my son is screaming his head off.

I'm trying to like, set up the, the, the tent. It's night. I, like, I have my headlamp on, you know, like I stick him by the fire with some strangers and I'm like, hang on, can you hang out with my son while I get this set up? Yeah. I frantically get that all set up. and then we get everybody in bed and I'm laying next to him and I realize that he has a fever and like we're sharing it's lights out.

At this point we're sharing this campsite with like strangers you could only bring one vehicle back to the campsite at a time. So my car is like half [00:08:00] an hour away through the woods in the dark and I barely, like, I have no idea how to get there.

Taylor: I am so stressed listening to you

Rosie: I know

Taylor: story,

Rosie: so I'm like, well, we're gonna have to leave.

But it would feel really weird to like, bring my van in the middle of this campsite while people are like trying to sleep. So I'm like, well, we'll just, he's asleep. My daughter's asleep. I'll just try to get some sleep. I was freezing. He was burn, like burning up next to me. My daughter slept great. I slept for like two hours.

I could hear coyotes, like I was just so cold and so uncomfortable. Like, I don't, I had a tent and I had like an air mattress and I brought some blankets, you know? I was like, oh, it'll be fine. It wasn't fine. It was not fine. Um, so anyway.

Taylor: I don't mean to laugh at yourself, Frank.

Rosie: No, please, please laugh at it. Um, so I sleep from like two 30 to four 30.

I wake up at four 30. I, like, I bundle up and I am literally just standing in [00:09:00] the tent for an hour, waiting for either my son to wake up or for there to be like some light, some sunrise.

So five 30 rolls around. It's still dark, but my son wakes up and he's like, I don't feel good. And I'm like, I know. So we have to walk over to like the med area and get him evaluated and, and okay, yes, he has a fever, so we're leaving just like, because they have to, you know, keep a account of everybody who's there.

and so then, yeah, my daughter wakes up and she's ready for her first full day of like Cub Scout camp. And I'm like,

sorry,

Taylor: worst.

Rosie: we're leaving

Taylor: Oh,

Rosie: She was so mad at me. She was so mad at her brother. So anyway, I have like all. Not, I know pe I people actually suffer from PTSD, so I don't wanna like diminish that at all.

But I feel so stressed going into this camping trip,

Taylor: I can imagine.

Rosie: luckily this time it's just me and her. We're not gonna bring my son. And, um, [00:10:00] my, uh, shout out to my friend Leslie and her husband. Um, they have loaned me like warm sleeping pads and insulated sleeping pads. So I will not be free freezing tonight, hopefully.

And hopefully I will sleep more than two hours. And it's two nights of camping, so it's, it's Friday night and Saturday night. Um, I'm supposed to be like 40 degrees tonight.

Taylor: I am wishing you all the good camping energy.

Rosie: I'm so stressed about this thing. But then there's this other thing happening in the world right now that is so major and so many people are suffering like this. This'll be fine. Like, I'll be fine. Like worst case scenario, I don't sleep or whatever, and we have to leave.

And my daughter has another, you know, horrible camping experience and she can blame me for it, but like, that's the worst, right? Um,

Taylor: Those are the core memories that you carry with you into adulthood.

Rosie: remember when,

Taylor: It's, it's funny because one of my strongest memories of my dad growing up was my, uh, girl Scout camp out. [00:11:00] Where he was, you know, helping, helping out with the big, the group camp out. And he thought it would be a great idea to tell a bunch of seven year old girls

the story of the Hitless horsemen

Rosie: no.

Taylor: in the middle of the woods then, and then proceeded to get up late at night and start making the sound of horse hoves.

Rosie: Oh my God. What a fantastic yet horrible memory.

Taylor: Yes. Well, I mean, it ended in disaster.

Everyone was screaming.

Rosie: oh, no.

Taylor: We all ended up going home

early the next morning. It was, it was a lot of traumatized little girls and, you know, my dad had to live with that, um, that little nugget for the rest of his life.

Rosie: Oh my gosh. . It's like one of those things that you think is gonna be a great idea as a parent, and then you realize actually

Taylor: No.

Rosie: it's not.

Taylor: How do I walk this

back?

Rosie: yeah. Yeah. You can't, you

Taylor: you can't.

Rosie: you just have to like say you're sorry,[00:12:00] . That's, that's what my focus is right now. I've like rolled up our tent. I've like packed away our sleeping bags and stuff, so, um, as soon as she gets home from school, we're gonna leave.

But

Taylor: I have a good feeling. I have a good feeling

for you.

Rosie: be better.

Taylor: And if it's not fine, then you'll have wonderful stories to tell us.

Rosie: remember

next time? Yeah.

Taylor: Mm-Hmm?

Rosie: All right, so we're gonna get into our topic now. Um, October is depression awareness month, which makes sense. Those a lot of people suffer from seasonal, depression. And as we get into the winter months, uh, Taylor, you and I both have personal experience with suicide and with depression.

I wonder, do you wanna talk about your experience first?

Taylor: I was just telling that story about my dad and, I was wondering going into this episode, how I was going to be able to handle this conversation and, [00:13:00] and. Really, if emotionally and mentally I could get through it and, you know, I'm gonna do my best. Um,

my

Rosie: might cry. It's okay,

Taylor: it's okay. I have a feeling that's gonna be kind of a, a running theme in this podcast. Lots of tears from the moms and that's okay.

Rosie: That's okay. We

Taylor: big feelings.

back in May, my father ended his life. It was very unexpected, which I have found out, you know, in the months afterwards that that's not unusual.

Rosie: Mm-Hmm.

Taylor: That a lot of times there, there are no major, uh, warning signs or, talk about self-harm.

So it really did come out of nowhere from the outside perspective. And there was also no explanation. I, uh, have come to understand that that is the norm, rather than what you think is that you get this lengthy, you know,

explanation or Note [00:14:00] or Yeah.

Some kind of message as to why the decision was made.

Um, it's more often that there is no explanation because often, um, that decision is made in a, in a really crisis moment.

Um, it's not, it's not often thought out and premeditated.

Rosie: Yes. I think, um, someone, we asked this question in our community about people's experience with depression and suicide and, and someone who also lost her father to suicide. She talked about it, you know, like how people can have a stroke or a heart attack. This is like a brain attack for a lot of people.

And I thought that was, that made it very, like, understandable to me. That felt

like a, a good, uh, verbiage for that. What, what's happening.

Taylor: Yeah. And f you know, for whatever reason that the knowledge that that was, the case for him, that it was, a momentary crisis that he just could not see his way out of that was [00:15:00] somehow easier for me to wrap my head around than, um, than the idea that he was, you know, in this really lengthy and. extended amount of, of personal and mental pain. and everyone's situation is different, but, for my father, it really did seem to be just a, a very difficult moment that he could not see his way out of. I'm, I'm still very much in the early stages

of grief and, you know, when you are grieving someone who has died by suicide, that's a very complicated grief. There are, there are lots of feelings that are, there's a lot of shame around the topic of suicide.

Rosie: Yes.

Taylor: People don't wanna talk about it. I've really tried to be transparent about, you know, what happened to my dad and what I am experiencing as, you know, the daughter of someone who died that [00:16:00] way. It, it's because it is such a, a pervasive issue that is exploding. have to talk about it.

Rosie: Yes. 100%. Yeah, because it used to be. Back in like edu Edwardian or Victorian Times, if you had a family who had died by suicide, like that was a black mark on your entire family. And like, you know, if you're a young woman, you might not be able to get married because there was someone in your family who did that.

Taylor: I.

Rosie: your point, by sweeping it under the rug, by not talking about it, by keeping it quiet, like we can't fix any problems that we don't acknowledge. And so that's why it's important to be open and have, uh, this discourse and like, that's why we decided to do this episode, because we felt like it's something that people need to talk more about.

Taylor: When we asked the, the question in our community, how have you personally been touched by suicide and depression? Just the, [00:17:00] you know, immense response that we received in such a short amount of time tells us that really you, we don't have anyone in our lives who hasn't been touched in some way,

Rosie: Yes, there were so many similar stories, you know, to yours, people who had lost their fathers that way, or people that had struggled themselves with depression or with suicidal ideation. Um, and I wanted to ask, you know, you said that you're still in the early stages of, of grief, but what are some of the things that have helped you move through this process?

Taylor: I started therapy pretty quickly after my, uh, father's death,

Rosie: We love therapy.

Taylor: yeah, I, I really cannot recommend that, highly enough. It's just having someone to talk, you know, through feelings that don't make any sense to you and try to put small, incremental, goals,

I guess,

Rosie: Mm-Hmm.

Taylor: because I think. Grief is just one [00:18:00] of those things that is, we like to think that it has a timetable, that you go through these, these stages of grief and that somehow you're going to get on the other side of it. You get like a little achievement award. I have

Rosie: All right. Done. Check

Taylor: yes, I think we are learning more and more that grief looks different for everyone and that grief is not linear. Sometimes, yeah, sometimes, I go through my day without, experiencing anything and then some days, you know, things wash over me like a tidal wave and I can barely get off the couch and that's. I think just the acknowledgement of where I am from day to day and moment to moment. Um, and I have, as I said, you know, a few moments ago, I've chosen to be really transparent about my grieving process because I want the people in my life who've, shown up for me and showed so much support.

I want them to know how they can support [00:19:00] me. And some days that that means, you know, letting me to myself,

and some days that means wrapping their arms around me. And I, I'm just so very grateful to, um, to have people willing to meet me in the moment that I'm in.

Rosie: I also wanted, wanted to ask if you had like, experienced depression or suicidal ideation or anything like that yourself or, if you have any family members other than than your dad.

Um, who struggled.

Taylor: I am so grateful and lucky that I have never personally struggled with, um, deep depression before. I think for the first time I'm experiencing a, a little taste of what depression looks like in this, this grieving process. I have never experienced suicidal ideation. I do have a family member who's very close to me, is, uh, younger, who has expressed, strong [00:20:00] feelings of anxiety and I think sometimes in young people, anxiety can become so overwhelming

Rosie: Yes,

Taylor: that it leads to things would be easier

if I just weren't here.

Rosie: yes. Sorry. This is ringing so true for me. Yes.

Taylor: So now I'm trying not. When you hear these beautiful little people get so overwhelmed with their feelings that they just want those feelings to end. That's how we know as parents, that we have to have these conversations with our kids. It's hard, it's scary, but their lives literally depend on us having these open, transparent conversations.

Rosie: One, 100%. And teaching, teaching them to how we can move through these feelings. Like we don't have to just hit a wall

and like. . Oh, the only way to end it is this option. No, we [00:21:00] can, it's, it's not gonna be easy, but we continue to work through it and we'll, we will get to the other side. But it's having, trying to teach patients and perseverance and showing up and be, and having support, , all of that resonates, like, so much with me.

 I have lots of experiences with this topic. I lost one, my, my cousin, and one of my best friends, uh, two postpartum depression last year. And she left behind three beautiful girls. She was my husband's cousin and I had grown up, uh, around her, but it wasn't until,

c-O-V-I-D, because she lived on the other side of the country that we connected, um, over Marco Polo and we got really close. And she had suffered from postpartum depression with her after her first child, but not with her second.

, it started occurring after she gave birth to her third child. And, this is the tough thing, [00:22:00] is like she recognized it and she had told me she had made an appointment with her midwife and, um, was getting help.

The weekend before she did it, she had been hospitalized. Because she was, because she couldn't do, you know, she wasn't functional. and

Taylor: there were lots of warning signs.

Rosie: so many warning signs, so many warning signs, and, and this is where it gets really complicated. It's like ultimately, ultimately it was her choice, but it feels hard.

 I physically wasn't there, but it feels hard, you know, you can't, you don't wanna put blame on other, other people, but it feels like things could have been done maybe because, as you were saying before, it can be a very like, spur of the moment, um, thing. And yeah, when she got home, um, she found a firearm, which we need to have a whole conversation about firearms.

But, you know, unfortunately that was not a [00:23:00] safe place for her to be. And she ended her life,

Taylor: I'm so sorry.

Rosie: I think this is what sometimes people don't realize and it's hard to see in the moment when you're feeling this way. but her death was a nuclear bomb in our family.

Taylor: Yeah,

Rosie: And I'm sure it feels that way in your family

Taylor: it does.

Rosie: Um,

Taylor: Completely.

Rosie: it has blown us completely apart.

Taylor: Yeah. The, the, the tidal wave that emanates from suicide is just, it's so far reaching.

Rosie: Yes. I, I don't know what she was, where she was in that moment, , I have my own experience with depression and suicidal ideation. I struggled with it for years in high school and in college. a lot of it stemmed from perfectionism, from comparing myself to other people, but I felt like a burden and, uh.

Being [00:24:00] depressed made me feel even worse about existing, I guess in terms of like, I'm not good enough at X, Y, Z, I don't deserve to be here. And also I'm putting this burden and this strain on other people that I care about so that it's like reinforcing that I shouldn't, should it be here. And I did things like I ripped up all of my sketchbooks.

I wrote horrible things about myself, all over the walls of my room and my ceiling my parents' bathroom door is broken because my dad broke down the door because he was worried that I was like attempting

and I made plans multiple times to end my own life. Mostly thinking about how I could do it so it didn't look like suicide, and my husband, uh, who at the time was my boyfriend, was there for me the whole way through as were my parents. Um, and, and this is a thing with, with depression, before we jump into that, I just wanna establish that like, sometimes people commit suicide and they, they are not depressed beforehand.[00:25:00]

You know, it can be other factors that lead, lead to that. Um, but we don't treat depression as a deadly disease. And it is,

and it should be treated like cancer. Where, what are the different ways that we're attacking this? Are we using medication? Are we using therapy? Are we having, uh, support groups or support networks?

 Are we having friends check in? Um, we don't treat it that way. I'm very fortunate. I'm still here and I'm so happy to be here. Um, I think most people that like encounter me would think of, you know, say I'm a very optimistic, like, happy, cheerful person. Not realizing this part of my life that I, that I went through.

Taylor: That's a huge, I think, testament and array of hope to, to a anyone who might be ex experiencing those, you know, those dark, moments right now and, and those types of ideations. It's also a ray of hope to parents [00:26:00] and caregivers who might be seeing some of these warning signs in their kids that, it is possible not only to survive, to get on the other side of that stage of that dark period, but also to, to thrive and to be a happy and healthy and wonderful mother that you are.

Rosie: It feels cliche, but like it does get better and everything changes and everything is temporary.

but when you're in that moment, it feels inescapable.

It feels like it will never get better. And I'm so grateful that I had people in my life to show up for me, and my mom was amazing.

I feel just thinking about like what she must have been feeling in that moment. It's really hard for me 'cause I know like she wasn't sleeping and she was so stressed and worried about me, but she took me to therapy and she got me different, you know, I tried a variety of [00:27:00] medication, all but she was there every step of the way and, um, as was my dad and as was my husband. I'm just really grateful that I had that. Um, 'cause not everybody does unfortunately. My own daughter is, uh, neurodivergent and so from an early age, I recognized some of those signs.

at age five she said that she wish she didn't exist. and so. I'm like, we are going to attack this from the get-go.

 I started therapy when I was in fourth grade. I remember like crying under, uh, a chair telling my mom that I was gonna kill myself because I couldn't, I wasn't good at like math or something like, like that.

Um, and so I recognize some of that stuff in my daughter. So we started therapy, we've started medication, we do occupational therapy. We have different, uh, like coping mechanisms at home. And I wanna arm her with as many tools as possible and as much support as possible [00:28:00] because I know like puberty is coming,

Taylor: Yeah.

Rosie: I, you know, kids' brains, they're like literally, I mean, not literally, but like

You know, kids, brain bodies are changing at the time. Their minds are changing even more. Yes. . And so I, I want to have our toolbox ready to go.

So that we don't get to the point that I was, I was at.

Taylor: I think that's, that's so incredible that, in our generation that you had such supportive parents. Because I feel like that is often not the case. There was this really kind of Pervasive stigma to mental health care and there still is

to, to a large extent.

Rosie: Especially among men and boys.

Taylor: , my partner describes, experiencing intense anxiety as a kid and years of insomnia[00:29:00] and just kind of crippling and debilitating anxiety, also tied to perfectionism. and then, and just white knuckling it,

Rosie: Mm-Hmm? .

Taylor: you know, through childhood.

Rosie: it out.

Taylor: And that has really led to some significant challenges in adulthood because those things don't just go away magically on their own.

I mean, may, maybe they do, but more than likely the emotional, you know, challenges that you discover in childhood will, if ignored, follow you into adulthood. And sometimes

morph into very destructive, you know, behavior.

Rosie: yes. At some point you're gonna have to handle your shit.

Taylor: Yeah.

Rosie: Which is, which is the hard thing Al also about depression is like you can offer someone as much support and you can sit in the darkness with them. But you cannot solve the problem for them. That is something that they need to work through on their own.

And with professional help. As much as we want an easy, quick fix for these things, especially as mothers,

Taylor: Mm-Hmm. [00:30:00]

Rosie: um, there's just not, and it's a long, ongoing process. And you have to have a lot of patience,

Taylor: Yeah.

Rosie: um, for, for seeing that through, I think to the other side.

Taylor: I can't, I can't agree more. And I think maybe we can spend, you know, just a little time talking about as parents, , what we're looking at and just how important it is to have these conversations with our kids. Because we know at this point, statistically that suicide is the number two leading cause of death in, uh, youth age, 10 to 24, 14 years old specifically is the most at risk and dangerous age

for boys.

Rosie: Wow.

Taylor: we don't, again, we don't have to be experts on why this is happening. It's a, More than likely a myriad of different stressors and, and environmental, issues that are, you know, causing a, an emotional crisis amongst our youth. , but what we do need to do [00:31:00] is have the tools and the skills to address the crisis that we're facing. , we can spend time to talk about the hows and whys later. I think it's really important that we just deal with what's at hand and, and make sure that our kids are safe and they feel supported by us.

Rosie: And when we think about kids, you know, also acknowledging our L-G-B-Q-T kids. I was going through this report, from the CDC about, suicide and it was talking about a study on, uh, middle and secondary school age kids.

 It found that the presence of a gay straight Alliance club on the school's campus lessened, uh, connections between gay bias victimization and suicide attempts through reductions in hopelessness. Going through this report that there's lots of other statistics on, you know, PTSD for veterans, and, and shows the existence of all of these different programs that [00:32:00] are

actually making strides and, and making differences and saving people's lives. Our kids are especially, you know, in middle and high school just at such a high risk for this. And thinking about like, what tools can our schools implement what programs can we take our kids to?

What, what support groups are there. Um, it's really important to advocate for those. I know even in our own school district, um, they recently added, social emotional learning coaches, which like is another thing that's cited in this report as, having evidence to, you know, reduce depression and reduce suicide rates among youth.

Taylor: Yeah. It's so critically important that we have emotional support in our schools. 'cause our kids spend so many hours a day there. That's why I get really frustrated when I hear this narrative coming, um, from the other side saying that we just need to get to the basics. Schools are only [00:33:00] there to teach arithmetic and reading.

Rosie: Yeah. Yeah. They're there for seven or eight hours a day, but they're, yeah.

Taylor: yeah. The idea that, yeah, that we, we cannot, address and see to kids' emotional wellbeing while they're in schools is just that's so dangerous and can be so destructive. So I appreciate our school district's commitment to, to making sure our kids have the emotional support that they need while they're in school.

And I will just say personally, you know, having, a child who's had some emotional challenges and, dealing with anxiety, knowing that I can in partner with the guidance counselor and the student support coach, I can be completely, you know, transparent about what's going on with him. I feel that my kid is so much safer at school because he has a safe place to go and talk about, you know, things that are going on that I may not be privy to.

Rosie: Mm-Hmm.

Taylor: it's, it's supposed to be a village, it's supposed to be a partnership[00:34:00] , Rosie, to, to your point, our L-G-B-Q-T youth are, are even at higher risk.

that is why it is so critically important that they have, uh, the support and a feeling of belonging in their social environments, in their school environments.

Because they may, let's be honest, they may not have it at home we know that having just, just one affirming voice really lessens the rate of suicide risk for an L-G-B-Q-T youth. I think that statistic comes from the Trevor Project, and imagine to me that's a pretty low bar, one affirming voice.

Like what if we have a whole, community and friend circle and educator circle, voices of of support and affirmation. Isn't that what every kid deserves?

Rosie: 100%. And I feel like if you see that in your school, even if you are a cis head student. , that's showing that there's empathy in the school, that people will show up and, [00:35:00] and support you no matter what direction you head. Homelessness, um, is another like point of intersection where people who are experiencing homelessness are also at a higher rate.

Um, and often L-G-B-Q-T youth are not supported at home and find themselves, um, homeless. This particularly, um, affects like black transgender and non-binary youth. Um, they're at a disproportionate rate, um, of suicide risk. this one statistic said 59% of them were seriously considering suicide and more than one in four, attempted suicide in the past year.

So that's why it's so important as . Parents as caregivers to show up and be supportive of our kids and be a space for them, be a shelter for them because we we don't always know all the facets of what's going on in their [00:36:00] life.

Taylor: I could not agree more, you know, within your, within your own home and your own family, it's important that you. Number one, understand. And this, I'll be honest, this took me a long time to wrap my head around. I was so afraid to bring up, suicide with my kids. 'cause I had this notion that that would plant the idea

Rosie: Mm-Hmm.

Taylor: head. And at this point, mounds of research and the pediatric, community, the psychology community all agree that bringing, talking with your kids about suicide will not make them consider suicide. It's far more dangerous, uh, not to bring the topic up with your kids.

Rosie: Right, because they feel like, oh, if you know my mom or dad or caregiver or whoever, if they're talking about it openly with me, I know that when I feel, unsafe

if I, if I feel like I'm considering it, [00:37:00] then um, I know I can go to them. Um, because we've already talked about it. I mean, it's the same thing with

You know, sex ed, it's like the, again, the, the other side is like, oh, we just need to like, not talk about it. And like, that's how people get pregnant and they don't know like what they're doing, doing,

Taylor: Knowledge is power. y'all.

Rosie: is power. Yeah. And arming our kids with that knowledge because they know themselves best.

Ultimately it's up to the individual to seek, help to seek out resources. So knowing that your kid, or a kid that you care about can come to you when they need help is like huge.

Taylor: If you have a thought or a feeling in your mind that there is a potential risk there, um, you need to listen to that,

that thought and feeling. Things that you can look for are, you know, your kids expressing worthlessness or hopelessness failure being worried, anxiety. [00:38:00] if you notice that they begin acting recklessly or aggressively, which is out of character for them.

Rosie: Mm-Hmm.

Taylor: Any changes oh, for older kids drinking

or

Rosie: Oh yeah. Substance abuse and depression go very hand in hand.

Taylor: If you start to notice self-injury, or, searching online for things, uh, surrounding self-harm. Certainly you need to take any threats seriously. Even if you think it sounds like a joke, um, joking about suicide should be taken very seriously. And also just be aware of situations that are stressors. So if something is happening at school that's causing a large amount of stress or anxiety you know, if bullying or humiliation or anything like that involving peers, puts kids at at high risk. And, once you kind of go through those and if you, if you make the assessment that several [00:39:00] of those The several of those box are checked, then you need to make an action plan and you can sort of determine whether or not it's a, it's a wait and see situation or it's an urgent situation, but even if it's a wait and see, it's important that you're having open and honest conversations and that you are consulting a medical professional.

Rosie: . The earlier the intervention, the better. we wanna prevent getting to that point as much as possible.

And I think there are a lot of barriers. you know, my, my own experience, my, my parents would talk about, oh, well we, you know, we can only do so many therapy sessions this year because dad's insurance only covers so much or

whatever. there are therapy, psychiatric, uh, offices in your area, therapists that will work on a sliding scale.

So if you are open about your financial situation, you know, people wanna help . That's, that's like, that's their job. That's why they're, they're doing it.

Taylor: [00:40:00] And that's also again, why it's so important to have that support structure in our schools as well.

Rosie: Oh, yes. 'cause that's a free resource,

Taylor: if kids are not able to access outside therapy, um, then there has to be that emotional support in, in the schools.

Rosie: Even if it's, uh, something that's , in the moment and that like never happens again and they need therapy for three months or whatever to like, work through the anxiety or depression or whatever it is that they're feeling, like those tools will stay with them for the rest of their lives and

make, make mountains, uh, much more easy to climb or make them much smaller.

You know, they'll know how to handle these feelings and these situations in the future. And that's what I'm really trying to, do with my daughter. I think the, the biggest thing too, um, especially with kids, you know, teens and tweens who are going through puberty or people who are depressed, is there is an inclination from that person will like, will pull away, [00:41:00] will pull back.

And we're, you know, we're very much in a society where it's like, oh, like I don't wanna say the wrong thing, or I don't wanna overstep, or I don't wanna be too obtrusive or obno obnoxious. And this is a situation where you do need to be obtrusive. You do need to be obnoxious. And if someone is in a crisis , where they're having suicidal ideation, like you need to follow them from room to room, you need to put away things that they could harm themselves with,

Put away firearms, even things like, if you're seeing a doctor or a psychiatrist talking about, you need to give me a dose to deal with this, but not a lethal dose,

Taylor: 100%. Making your home safe is one of the the best things that you can do. just in general.

Rosie: in general.

Taylor: When you have kids in the house, uh, firearms, medication, any sort of weaponry, um, it's important that you make [00:42:00] your home as safe as possible. To your earlier point, Rosie, it is very important that we are not vague or hyperbolic in these conversations with our kids.

We need to be very specific. You need to ask direct questions.

Rosie: Yes. And direct questions often be annoying , because the worst thing is like, I'm fine mom, you're, you're annoying me. I'm okay.

Taylor: Yeah. Mental and emotional checks need to happen frequently and specifically. You know, a lot of kids your age experience suicidal ideation. Have you ever had thoughts like this, like your, your questions need to be that specific and you need to listen to the answers.

Rosie: . So important to, yeah. As we were saying to, to be open about this because it just creates a, a through way for conversation to happen. Maybe there's not a conversation right now, but maybe there will be down the line.[00:43:00]

Taylor: I think it's important also to remember and recognize how your emotional wellbeing and, and your mental, temperature is, you know, do mental check-ins and emotional check-ins for yourself.

Rosie: Yes. Guess so. Frequently as caregivers, we. We put our own feelings, on the back burner and sometimes, like, just staying busy is how we ignore it. And then if suddenly we're not busy, it's like a flood of

Taylor: Yeah. It all comes out at

Rosie: it all comes out at once and one of the things that's been awesome for me, going through this with my daughter is I have tools now I have a better understanding.

 Even like looking back, like I see so much of the way that she reacts to things, like, oh, that's me. That's what I would do.

Taylor: You recognize that?

Rosie: I recognize that. And so I have those tools for my, myself now. And I, having [00:44:00] gone through it and having lived it, I feel so much more prepared, to help her going forward so that she doesn't get to a crisis point like where I was.

If you're trying to be a support person for someone who is suicidal or, dealing, dealing with depression,

you can feel very frustrated I think, um, because it is such a long process. Um, but I'm also like very. Grateful. My husband is the most patient person in the world, and I asked him this morning, I'd never asked him this before. I was like, what was that experience like for you? Like, I don't even know. Like I was just going through it.

And he said he felt scared sometimes for me, and it was hard, but he just tried to be as supportive as possible and it made, it made a difference.

Taylor: There's no way to put any sort of, um, quantifying a support structure is everything. And that's why we need to, do [00:45:00] everything in our power to make sure our kids feel supported and loved and valued. And every single one of our kids deserve that. And if they are not getting that at home, then the community has to really step up.

Rosie: Yes. Yes.

Yeah.

Taylor: I know we are going to provide a list of resources

Rosie: Mm-Hmm.

Taylor: attached to this podcast on different books that you can read and, and perhaps in different podcasts and conversations you can check out around this. We hope that our conversation has encouraged you as a caregiver to have these conversations with your kids, and we'd like to know how it goes. 'cause it, the thing is like, you don't have to be perfect. The, these conversations don't have to, you know, follow any kind of formula. They can be awkward and hard and weird, and that's okay.

Rosie: Yes, I think there's a concern that like, oh, if I say the one wrong thing, that might be the one wrong thing that like tips the scale, but talking about it is definitely the way to go.

Taylor: Rosie, I [00:46:00] appreciate, you know, you trusting me and our audience with this deeply personal story. I really appreciate the space to be able to share my personal story.

Rosie: Yes.

And we know so many people in our community also, this will resonate with them whether they've lost someone or have helped someone or are dealing with it themselves. , there's so many great resources. Um, there's also the suicide hotline, which is. it's 9 8, 8, um, now it's just like, kind of like 9 1 1, whereas before it was a long, uh, number and I've, I've called the suicide hotline before, not for myself, but, um, for a very, very close family member. And, you can do that also, if another family member is in a moment of crisis, you can call and they will provide you with resources in your area, for either yourself or the person that you care about.

But thank you Taylor for this, this conver this [00:47:00] tough conversation. Um, but important conversation.

Taylor: Thank you, Rosie. I'm glad. I'm just so grateful for our community and each other.

Rosie: Yes.

Taylor: Keep showing up for each other.

Rosie: Keep showing up for your community and the people and show up for yourself too.

You gotta show up for yourself. All right, friends.

Taylor: we're signing off on this really tough, tough talk.

Rosie: Take care of yourselves and, uh, take care of each other.

Thanks for listening to this episode. We hope we have encouraged you to be open with your own kids, friends, and family about depression and suicide. We hope that it inspires you to discover what resources are available to you, and investigate what supports your local government offers, and to ask for better supports if you find them to be lacking.

It's so important that we take the time to understand one another and to advocate for each other. Again, you can [00:48:00] find more resources in the episode notes.

// Transcript //

Ep 03 Dress Codes

[00:00:00]

Mari: Yeah, I feel like I have a little

Rosie: frog in your

Mari: frog. Freaky frog

Rosie: but we like frogs, so that's cool.

Mari: It's true. I love frogs.

Taylor: What's the, the MILF sticker?

Mari: Milk I love frogs.

Welcome to the Moms for Social Justice podcast, where we talk about how you can make your community a more awesome place. In this episode, Mari leads us in a conversation about dress codes in schools. We discuss our own experiences with dress codes when we were kids and with our own children and how dress codes make kids feel ashamed or embarrassed of their own bodies, their culture or gender identity.

Or, how they can work to safeguard a positive learning environment and make students feel accepted. We hope you enjoy this episode!

Mari: Hello. M SS J. We're back [00:01:00] with the Moms for Social Justice podcast, you may notice something a little different. we look more professional, more put together?

Rosie: we sound

Mari: Oh, right. don't know. I think we look more professional.

I also didn't have to worry about what my hair looked like this episode, so I like that.

Taylor: Yeah, we got fancy new headphones and, and mics.

Mari: do match. We need it to match. We

Rosie: cute.

Mari: We're

Taylor: we just take a moment and appreciate how cute we are? Rosie, I love your shirt today.

Mari: I know. It's adorable.

Rosie: I got a, at the like thrift consignment store. I'm on the hunt for more Hawaiian shirts. The problem

usually they're for men, so they're huge. And I

Mari: Right.

Rosie: So, um, you know, if I did so I couldn't make cute ones myself.

Taylor: Yeah. If you're listening and not watching, Rosie has on a very colorful tropical shirt, which is, you know, not really fall themed, but we're hanging on to the last, [00:02:00] uh, bit of summer because it's still 85 degrees during the day, so that's okay.

Rosie: week.

Taylor: And Mari, what does your shirt say?

Mari: My shirt says public schools, and it is from an awesome local organization called Unify Ed that is working to make our public schools here in Chattanooga more equitable.

Rosie: I with that. I agree with Billy. We should not fund public schools and we should not accept billions of dollars from the federal government.

Mari: Well,

kicked outta the podcast, Rosie. It's been nice. Your shirt added a certain but Goodbye

Taylor: out

Mari: You the weakest link. That is, that is a throwback. Gen Z will be like, what are they, what are they talking about?

Taylor: That's okay.

Mari: We are the Chattanooga Moms for Social Justice, a progressive grassroots organization based here in Chattanooga, Tennessee. uh, our goal is to encourage parents to fight for social change right in their own backyard. And [00:03:00] we do that, I guess we could say every day. We, we try to do it every day and we've been at it for six years, which is really hard to, hard to believe. So we like to start out our podcast with a little check-in and, uh, finding out what is on our hearts. then we'll kind of dive into our topic, which today is dun dun, dun dress codes.

Taylor: We don't talk about dress codes. No. Uh, we are gonna talk about dress codes. Sorry.

Mari: code but a of don't wanna talk about it. Uh, yeah. So Rosie, what is on your heart?

Rosie: Um, okay. Very exciting. There's a lot of like, art challenges in October, and I have a lot of, I want to do them in theory, but I'm really busy, so I decided to do my own challenge, and if anybody else wants to join, let me know. Follow me on Instagram, Rosie Fitzgerald. Um, I'm doing a challenge called Rest Sober [00:04:00] where you write out your, like sleep routine, like your night routine for good sleep hygiene.

So like mine is, I take a bath, I, I, uh, turn off screens at 10 30. I've installed like an app blocker, so I can't access social media because I've found, like, I'll go to my phone and say, oh, wait, I can't do that. I journal and um, I have to be in bed by 11 and then hopefully asleep by 1130. Usually I read in bed. The idea is that hopefully I will fall asleep faster and get better quality sleep and just more sleep. Um, and then the other part is to choose something every day that is either energizing or that you restful. Whether maybe it's like a 20 minute like engaging in your favorite hobby or doing some meditation or movement. And being really intentional about it because I am not, and I wanna be better. So I'm hoping that if I build up this, these habits, that'll feel better and that I won't stay up until two in the morning. Watching [00:05:00] Love is Blind

Mari: Not ever done that. Did you invent rest? Tober

Rosie: I did,

Mari: Rosie.

Rosie: invention.

Mari: Rosie's rest Tober

Taylor: love that.

Rosie: Yes, and I, yeah, I know it's hard. I feel like, I don't know, October's hard. We're busy, but also like having a good sleep routine. Even if I don't, if I'm not in bed by 11, I can still go through like my routine. Like journaling has been important I think and helpful for quieting my brain down enough for me to be able fall asleep reasonably quickly.

Know, if you let me know if you guys join and what you

Taylor: I love that and wish you luck in that. And it's interesting because we, you know, we develop sleep routines for our kids, you know, to get them in a, in a restful place and ready for sleep. So I love the idea of building one of those for, you know, yourself as well. I'm gonna take some inspiration there, Rosie.

I will, I will join you in trying to create a sleep routine for rest Hoover. Thank you for that.

Rosie: Yes.

Mari: that we can check in on our next episode and see how we're all doing.

[00:06:00] Okay, Taylor, what about you? What's on heart?

Taylor: Oh, what, what's on my heart is I recently reread the Giver

Mari: Ooh.

Rosie: Oh

Taylor: because my fifth grade son wanted to read it. He has recently, gotten into dystopian fantasy. He read the Hunger Game series over the summer, and it's kind of his genre of choice right now, but I wanted to reread it and refresh, , my mind on the themes and, you know, different things that we could talk about and have you guys read that book?

Rosie: yeah. I mean, it's been, it's

um,

Mari: it has been a minute.

Rosie: it's very like, it's very beautifully written. It's kind of sparse in its description her word choice is so Precise. It does enough to paint a picture of the world without being overbearing or overly descriptive.

Taylor: And it's a very quick read too. Um, if you wanna jump back into it, it hits so hard [00:07:00] and it has stuck with me all week long and it has, uh, really made me appreciative of color. Because I don't know if you remember in that that landscape, the world is devoid of color. So I've really been able to take some intentional moments to appreciate that around us.

Really just in general, it, has given me this, this idea that, you know, if instead of shielding our kids and banning ideas and books, From them. If we instead took the time to read those books and use the hard concepts and the hard ideas to have really interesting and hard conversations with our kids we might be really amazed with some of the things that, that come out of them.

So I am really excited to have really interesting conversations with my son about this book. I'm really curious how it's going to hit him and if it's going to hit him as [00:08:00] deeply and as hard as it has Hit me reading it again as an adult.

Rosie: I love that. I love that

Mari: Wow.

Rosie: reading it together too. That's so special. oh, just an aside. When I was a kid, I, you know, those dumb things that you think of or that you think are true when, when you're a kid, because all the sh old shows were black and white. I thought the wor the entire world was in black and white. You know,

the 1950s

Taylor: Yep.

Mari: my kids think that too.

Taylor: So did mine. I, I'll never forget my middle son saying, when did the, when did the world become color?

Rosie: like, oh no, we just got, we just got But

Mari: we just better at capturing the world.

Rosie: Yeah. Process that.

Taylor: That's so precious.

Mari: That is precious. Oh yeah. I need to revisit that book. I'm pretty sure I read it in middle school and then think I did revisit it as an adult, but I think I was maybe in college or something. So I think it would hit even more differently now. And I know they made a movie, but wasn't very

Taylor: I haven't seen it.

Rosie: no, I haven't seen it either. Yeah. Revisiting books I think is super [00:09:00] valuable. Just like listening to music in different stages

like, you know, yeah. Stuff that you rocked out too as a teen you're like, oh, that wasn't actually applicable to my life at all, and but it felt very important in the moment.

Mari: Yeah, for sure.

Rosie: Mari, what's on your heart?

Mari: On my heart. Um, well, last night we hosted a virtual discussion called Running for School Board 1 0 1, and we invited some local who for a local office and won. And then we had the amazing Gloria Johnson

Taylor: Woo.

Mari: join us. man, she's just such an inspiration, but all of these women were so inspiring and it really, it gave me hope and it inspired me. Um, I've pretty much decided that running and being an elected official is not my calling, but I, there were so many people in the chat during the conversation that [00:10:00] sounded excited and felt, I think they felt that support that we wanted to show, that we would give, it really is scary. It's scary to say, I'm gonna run.

And especially if you don't have a huge social network here, um, or locally, can be scary to think, well, no one, no one's gonna care. No one's gonna support me. So showing that Moms for Social Justice will be there for you is, is huge. I think. And, and Rosie even volunteered, you know, to make a logo for,

design some things for folks for free and I think it will, I think it will inspire some folks to run and it, even if it doesn't, it's still hearing the stories of those women ran and their, you know, kind of why they decided to run and why they felt they needed to step up was really incredible. didn't know a lot of them.

Rosie: I agree. It was, it was awesome. And to your point, Mari, like, I don't think, you know, just like, uh, moving through a dungeon requires, uh, different classes. You can't all just be [00:11:00] warriors. We need MAs, rogues as well. So it takes to run a successful campaign.

Mari: Yes it does.

Taylor: Rosie, I, I'm just gonna put this out here from now on every podcast episode. If you do not reference like d d or something nerdy, I'm gonna be really disappointed.

Rosie: Um,

Taylor: What, what class are you?

Rosie: Oh, what cla? Um, I like, I usually like to play as like a, like a MJ Healy Healy type class. I do the support aspect as Yeah, I, I like it, but I, I honestly, I played all classes. Like, I like being upfront and being a tank. Probably being a tank, which is the person who takes all the damage.

getting really nerdy.

Taylor: I love it. I love it.

Rosie: person who like does the buffs and, um, the, you know,

and stuff. I, I like that too.

Taylor: Yeah. Last night was really, uh, really wonderful as well to just hear,[00:12:00] taking that leap from having, the thought in the back of your mind, maybe, maybe I can do this. Maybe my voice, uh, is important. Maybe I can do something for my community.

It's one thing to have that thought, it's another, to take that leap and actually run for office and, and see these women who did that, who made that leap was just really, really inspiring, especially to hear how all of their win margins were so narrow.

Rosie: They were so Yes. Yeah. And

I re you know, canvassing, A lot of times when I knock on people's doors, I'll hear that people say that, you know, they don't vote or they're not registered because they really feel disheartened and feel like their vote doesn't matter. And that that's the complete opposite of the, the case. It really does matter, I think, in our in our area, or. know, sometimes looking at national politics too, it can feel very disempowering,

that's the magic of like local

Mari: Mm-hmm.

Rosie: and local is that that's where [00:13:00] you can a big impact and wield a lot of power and yeah,

influence and that those local elections will have a big influence on your own day-to-day life as well.

So they're really important.

Mari:

Well, thank you all for sharing. I think, I think it's nice to start that way. And, uh, our topic is one that's I'm not passionate about it all. Just kidding. Uh, dress codes in schools particularly. I wanna start with hearing from both of you and maybe kind of giving a little bit of my background. Like when you were in school, was there a dress code? Did it affect you at all? You know, what do you remember thinking about it? Were, did it just kind of not bother you? Were you angry? and then because we're all mothers, how has the dress codes in your kids' schools affected? You now and your kids.

Rosie: As, as you all know, I went to a Catholic school for about years, [00:14:00] we wore uniforms as you do in most, I think all Catholic schools. and my parents didn't have a lot of extra money, like a lot their money was going to paying for our school tuition. You know, we lived in a very small house.

So I, I like distinctly remember going to the like secondhand, uh, uniform sales that they would in the school gymnasium before the start of the year and, and like making sure that we go to that. and I just basically lived in my couple of uniform pieces. I didn't really have any, like, I had a few clothes from Kmart and stuff, but it was mostly uniform 'cause like where my parents' money went. Um, and so then I remember when I went to Uh, public, junior high in eighth grade, that was like a selling feature, of like, to public school and we can go to the mall and get clothes. And I was like, oh,

Taylor: Woo hoo.

Rosie: American Eagle? I don't know. Um, so when I was in, in high school and stuff, I didn't really, um, [00:15:00] I didn't run into any problems or anything. Um, but I do remember, you know, going back to, to Catholic school and wearing the uniform, I, it's a, it's really a difficult thing, but I do think it was beneficial in, in the way that, you know, my family didn't have a, a lot of extra resources. And there were kids in my school that that did, but when we were at school, except for, um, wintertime because I really wanted a starter jacket and my not

Taylor: I remember starter jackets,

Rosie: They a dollars and my parents were like, no, we're not spending a hundred dollars. But you know, the cool kids had it anyway. Um, yeah. And I remember over to kids' houses to play and like, wow, your house is like big and stuff, and didn't feel that disparity as much at school, which is a positive thing. Um, but I'm sure you know, the financial burden of just the cost of tuition and getting uniforms and stuff was a challenge for my parents.

Mari: And how about now, uh, with your two kiddos in public school, have [00:16:00] you been affected by it at all? Have they said anything?

Rosie: No, we haven't run into any issues yet, thankfully. Um, my kids still young and I feel like that's less of an issue when kids are young and becomes more of an issue once kids are interested in expressing themselves. I mean, the biggest thing is,

my daughter has is neurodivergent. And so she has some sensory issues.

And so I've been like pulled aside, if you will, you know, by the teacher saying, saying like, well, she won't wear her jacket, or, and I'm like, you know, I can't force her to wear, I can ask her to wear a jacket, but it's very uncomfortable for her. So not enforced necessarily.

Mari: How about you Taylor? Uh, what your experience growing up?

Taylor: Rosie, you know, you talking about it really putting a spotlight on, you know, the economic hierarchy. I, I remember that really distinctly as a child off brand Walmart clothes and, you know, they would try to make a, [00:17:00] they would make a brand name that sounded close to the, to the name brands like

I'm gonna age myself here. My brothers had to wear Brule boy pants as opposed to bugle boy. so, you know, I remember feeling just personal, em embarrassment and feelings of, being otherness, I guess. Not having the name brand clothing that some of my, my peers had. I rem as we got older, you know, the, the length of the shorts became I guess that was the most important thing going on in our assistant principal's day, because he would

Rosie: it's

the fingertips.

Taylor: Yes, the fingertips and he would line us up publicly, which I, so I remember like, shame was a big part of the dress, enforcing the dress code that you would be, you know, publicly called out if your shorts were too short and sent home.

Mari: it was a man that did this.

Taylor: Oh yeah, prince, principal hanky. I mean, this was back when they would still.

Mari: His name was Hanky.

Taylor: Oh, it was, yeah,

Rosie: Not to name names, but [00:18:00] to this horrific principle.

Taylor: I, I, I'm sure, um, God rest his soul, Mr. Hankey's no longer with us,

Rosie: probably a

Taylor: but, um, that I also don't feel a whole lot of personal, Mr. Hanky paddled me in his office, so, uh, there's no love loss there. Well, I had a choice, so I was late a lot. This is not related to dress codes. I was late a lot. Shocking, shocking no one.

And so I had a choice between detention at 6:30 AM or being paddled, and I chose being paddled. So I guess you could say that, you know, it's my own fault, but.

Mari: if you had chosen 6:30 AM detention, you might've been late.

Rosie: late for

Taylor: Most definitely, I would not have made 6:30 AM detention. But, but I guess getting back on topic, for me personally, I think one of the most difficult things for me is I was large chested as a teenager[00:19:00]

and there was strict rules about your bra strap being visible,

 it's, it wasn't, it was also not an option for you not to wear a bra,

Which I think is becoming, um, a point of contention with

With kids now, whether or not they, they feel like they're compelled to wear undergarments. So like there's just this weird double standard. Like you can't, you have to wear the undergarment, but you can't see the undergarment. And for, for a large chested teenagers, that I think is a, a struggle and also a source of embarrassment.

And it was for me.

Mari: Yep, a hundred percent. Um, and since you, have two boys in, public school right now, I know you have a daughter, she's not quite there yet. Have you experienced anything now with, with dress code or, you know, I know length of shorts may not matter so much, but I know that, uh, one of your sons. You know, likes to, [00:20:00] express himself a little differently than what is the quote unquote And I know you've experienced some issues with that.

Taylor: I wouldn't have thought that dress code issues would be a thing for us to deal with, and certainly in elementary school, but I've been sort of surprised that, we've had to deal with some, some of those questions. My older son, yeah, he presents a little bit differently. He likes to wear bright colors, pink and, and he likes to wear sparkly jewelry sometimes.

And recently he has, uh, begun to paint his nails. He likes to paint his nails and he wants to get his ears pierced for his birthday. As we've been kind of talking with the. of the school officials about some of the challenges he's run into with peers because he presents a little bit differently.

It has been suggested that may need special permission to wear earrings to school, which is a really, really interesting thing to me, why we would have a double standard [00:21:00] for, for boys who present a little bit differently. And it just made me think that elementary schools I think are gonna have to spend a little more time figuring out how they're going to support and make our kids who, who are a little different, feel included and feel like they belong.

Because that's the motto of, of our schools, right? That everyone belongs. Well then we need to create environments where everyone feels like they belong.

Mari: exactly.

Rosie: for sure. You know, if a, if girls can wear dresses to school, boys should be able to wear dresses to school.

shouldn't be an issue. And

Mari: A hundred percent. Yeah. And

your nails and you know,

Taylor: long hair

Mari: like we know we can't keep other kids from making fun of someone saying an offhand comment, but it's the culture of the school and how teachers treat students that maybe present a little differently or, [00:22:00] um, know break the dress code rules. think that really sets the tone. For how students feel if shame is a big part of it or not. so for me, , I went to school in East Tennessee, that's where I grew up, and we had a very similar dress code to what my kids have now and here in, in Chattanooga. And was a constant source of anxiety for me. I don't, I don't remember them lining us up, but I, I know for sure that, you know, when we would walk into a classroom, instead of the teacher being concerned with, you know, maybe like Are there clothes clean? Like do we need to potentially step in and, and help this kiddo out, , if they don't have a good home situation, something like that, thinking, you know, hmm, those shorts look a little too short. So I now, as an adult, I feel for the teachers having to, in my opinion, waste time dealing with that. But yeah, I [00:23:00] also had, a larger chest still do, and dealing with that was, was really difficult. And, in in the nineties and early two thousands, oversized t-shirts were not in, so everything was, tight.

Taylor: Mm-hmm.

Mari: , if I wanted to wear a V-neck, showed cleavage no matter what. Like, I, I, you know, and then we would layer with the tank top underneath with the little lace, and it still would,

Rosie: layers.

Mari: yeah. And I remember boys, uh, Wadding up little pieces of paper

Taylor: stop.

Mari: throwing them

Taylor: Oh my God.

Mari: And the teacher, teacher is a, I don't know that I would call him a teacher.

He was a coach He saw it laughed and did nothing.

Taylor: Oh.

Mari: I remember going home and crying and like trying to figure out a way to like, make my shirts go up higher and being like, I guess I can't even wear this stuff that's in, I need to wear like in the summer. And again, [00:24:00] that was something that the students did, but it was by teacher by not doing anything and kind of just thinking it was funny. Um, so that made me very upset. And then now ,some of those feelings have been coming up lately with my, my children. Um, my daughter is about to go into middle school. So, yeah, they didn't really enforce the dress code as much before this year, but they have started to, and my daughter is definitely like me and that she a rule follower and wants to do the right thing and doesn't wanna get in trouble. it's been really wracking for her. She's also tall, which I did not deal with.

And so know, that they sell in the stores,

So she's wearing Bermuda shorts, which like,

Taylor: those aren't, those aren't cute

Mari: like, they're fine, but if she, like, she can't just wear the comfy, [00:25:00] like moisture wicking, you know, athletic shorts because they're too short. As we mentioned in the beginning, it's 85 degrees or hotter here, even in. We're about to be in October it's been very frustrating. felt shame about it. She has noticed that geared toward, the, the girls,

Rosie: mm-hmm.

Mari: in her school and saying how unfair it was. And she actually wanted to do her speech last year on it.

They could do, uh, soapbox speeches where they could talk about something they were passionate about. she asked if she could do it about the dress code the teacher said for or against, and she said against. And the teacher said, no, you can't do that.

Taylor: What

Mari: I know. after seeing some of those speeches, they were on gun violence. And I mean, they were, it wasn't just like, you know, homework and no homework, you know, it was, they were serious topics and that was very interesting. So, .

Taylor: Well, you know, I think it, it really begs the [00:26:00] question like, what are we telling our young girls

We talk about shorts that are too short, that there's something about their legs that are obscene,

Mari: Mm-hmm.

Rosie: or, and like the way that clothes are designed for girls. Like the shorts are short.

You can't find, um, you can't find longer length shorts, or they're really difficult to find, or you have to find Bermuda shorts. There's, um, a super famous, she's like the best, um, ultra, you know, female ultra runner in the world.

The best, one of the best ultra runners in the world. Courtney Dewal. And when she runs, she wears like basketball shorts basically, and like bigger, bigger shirt shirts. And, um, that's just what she feels comfortable in. And, and she actually, um, one of the sports company, Solomon, like, she designed shorts that are more in line with like the length and stuff that she likes that you can go buy now. But that is so [00:27:00] rare. Um, and I, and I noticed that when I was buying shorts for my, my, daughter, I think Target hat has some options for slightly longer,

they called them MIDI shorts maybe. Um, but it's, it's very limited. Um,

if you wanna, you know, as your kids get older and they wanna be on trend, just like how you were struggling Mari with trying to in and match the current styles.

Mari: and not get things thrown down my Cleavage

Taylor: Ugh.

Rosie: Yes. Getting your bo like you have to have like the right body type or you might get in trouble for not adhering to the dress code and it's so restrictive and limiting over something that you have little to no control over.

Mari: Right. And it feels so unnecessary to me. our school recently had a, a committee to talk about the dress code, and I was excited to be a part of it because I thought, Ooh, we're gonna be making some big changes. And really it was more they wanted, [00:28:00] um, it wasn't being enforced the board consistently.

 Which I, I understand is an issue. And I'm sure, you know, as our community mentioned, we, we posed a question in our community group about dress codes and how people felt about them. And we know that, People with larger bodies tend to, uh, you know, get called out more on dress code. And it's just like we were saying, like whether you're tall short or you have a larger body or a larger chest, all factors into how clothes fit on you. Especially when we, you know, it's not fair. We know that a lot of plus size clothing costs more. It's harder to find. It's not on trend a lot of the time. So there's so many barriers. But it was very interesting hearing other parents talk about it. And the, the one that struck me the most was the idea of, of leggings and that kids can't, girls, let's be honest, they can't use gendered language in the actual dress [00:29:00] code.

I believe that's, that's illegal, but

Taylor: But we know who they're targeting.

Mari: know they're targeting. Uh, so yeah, you, you have to wear a shirt that covers your backside and your front completely. if you wear leggings, which I'm like, I'm not sure if you've been into a store, but that's what everyone's wearing.

Taylor: Yep.

Rosie: yes. Well, and I remember when leggings first became a thing, people were complaining about it for that very reason. Like, oh, they're just wearing, you know, tights

Mari: tights. Okay. What's wrong with wearing tights?

Rosie: like, I think, you know, I, what was it next in fa in fashion? Um, tan was talk, talking about like, yeah, underline underwear lines, they're fine.

Mari: right? Because

all it is is it means you're wearing underwear,

Taylor: Uh,

Rosie: thank goodness,

Taylor: oh my gosh. The fights I have with my boys to wear underwear, y'all,

Mari: wow.

Rosie: I have, I have those same fights too as my daughter,

Mari: Oh, Interesting. That's one I haven't had to deal with,

count myself. Lucky.

Taylor: But yeah, [00:30:00] what's, uh, what's gonna happen if the kid in front of you or behind you sees your underwear line? I'm like, what are we telling our, and that's, I think what drives me the most bananas about it, is that we are enforcing from a very young age that our boys have no self-control.

Our girls are responsible for boys' thoughts and boys' feelings. They have to, you know, police their bodies to, to protect themselves from the thoughts and feelings of their peers. To me that we are teaching that from such a young age, how do we expect them to unlearn that when they are in, um, you know, older age brackets where, we can't tell our, our young women, how you dress, it doesn't matter how you dress.

You're not asking for sexual assault. If we, if we taught them that from a very young age,

Mari: Yep.

Rosie: be Beyonce [00:31:00] helped me unlearn that. No, 'cause I, that that was enforced for, for me. Also, obviously, like in a Catholic school, you know, you need to cover, cover up

Taylor: those knees,

Rosie: Yes. And um, and so I struggled for a long time with slut shaming

Mari: Mm-hmm.

Rosie: I would judge other women or girls for , showing too

body. It was Beyonce's 2013 Visual Album she was talking about how, women should feel empowered to show, um, their bodies. And, and she, especially as a newer mother, had worked very hard to, get her body to look the way that she wanted. Wanted it to look and she wanted to show it off.

Taylor: Rosie, do you feel that that changes the way that you talk about other women in front of your daughter and your son?

Rosie: have wrestled with the question of, well, what do I do when, my son?

Or, presumably my daughter [00:32:00] maybe wants to dress more provocatively I honestly don't know exactly what I'm going to do yet because I do think, you know, for learning environments, for professional environments, I think some sort of dress code is Im important, um, far as putting everybody on a, on a like level playing field.

Taylor: I think it's a very nuanced topic, and I, that was one of the things that I found really interesting from our, um, community. You know, comment thread is, you know, we had parents weighing in, teachers weighing in, you know, with, with varied ideas on this topic. And to your point, Rosie. A few of the parents and teachers said that uniforms were really helpful in school for that reason, that it just sort of created a, a level playing field for everyone.

But then you have to talk about, and Rosie you talked about this in, in your childhood, that presents an economic barrier.

Mari: Right. Well, and I think that's like, [00:33:00] that's my biggest issue with dress codes is that they don't always give a purpose. And so it does, like, it leaves people to wonder, you know, um, is it because my body is shameful? Do you know do we have dress codes? , before that committee meeting that I attended over the summer at our school, I wanted to find out, what. Was the first dress code, what did, what was the reason? Um, I, I found it really interesting, uh, that it had to do with censorship, which is such interesting topic

Rosie: wow.

Mari: nowadays.

Taylor: Imagine that.

Mari: Right? So the first school dress code law was in 1969 by the US Supreme Court. And the case was Tinker v Des Moines Independent School District. And let's see, it says it involved several high school students who wore black armbands to school in a planned protest against the Vietnam War.

Taylor: No shit. That is awesome.

Mari: So, um, you know, they just. [00:34:00] They say it's a far reaching decision, you know, which I assume means people had things to say about it. but they decided schools can limit student expression if there's a legitimate concern that the expression will be disruptive to the learning environment or violate the rights of others, which I can understand the latter part, but the other part feels very subjective. And,

Taylor: Oh, absolutely.

Mari: is why, I did a little research and found a really neat dress code that I, that I thought was a fantastic blueprint, and it starts out with the dress code philosophy. It says this, this, uh, Evanston Township High School student dress code supports equitable education, educational access, and is written in a manner that does not reinforce stereotypes to ensure effective and equitable enforcement.

School staff shall enforce the dress code consistently and in a manner that does not reinforce or increase marginalization or oppression of any [00:35:00] group based on race, sex, gender identity, gender expression, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, cultural observance, household income or body type and size, which I feel is really cool.

And of course, I sent that to our school and was met with crickets, and I that not gonna, you know, feel super comfortable with that kind of language. Uh, but, but

Rosie: understand why though,

Mari: yeah, I don't either.

Rosie: to me. I mean, I know again, in our community thread, people were talking about instances of, uh, black girls and black women's hair being,

it can only be a certain way. And I'm like, well, if you have braids, how is that disruptive to the, to the learning environment?

understand allowing maybe, uh, t-shirts or sweatshirts with certain logos or

Mari: Profanity or

Rosie: yeah, or, or, you know, uh, gangs will, affiliate with

sports team. [00:36:00] Um, but then that's like very school specific, obviously.

Mari: right,

Rosie: It's, if it's not hindering the learning environment, then why is it, uh, against. The, the dress code,

Or, you know, even things like, like do rags are frequently banned. Which that is just protecting somebody's hair. it's a lot of effort to,

Mari: Mm-hmm.

Rosie: to put into doing hair and if you don't feel like doing it because you wanna get to school on time or whatever, like that should be allowed.

It's not distracting.

Taylor: Yeah, that just feels so racially coated. You know,

Rosie: 100%.

Mari: Looked at a few statistics before this episode and, you know, 93% of schools have some sort of dress code policies and 44% enforce a strict dress code. And I mean, that's, that's a lot, you know, so I feel like it, it behooves us to interrogate these and not do the whole, it's always been done this way.

Taylor: Right. Yep.

Mari: [00:37:00] keep doing it even though it's, you know, reinforcing stereotypes and, you know, making it harder for, you know, black and brown students, especially, female presenting students to learn. And it's interesting because I feel like the purpose is so that kids can be in a better learning environment and less distracted. And I feel like it's ending up potentially. Doing the opposite,

correct.

Rosie: too restrictive. Yeah. . Your shorts are too. Shorts are

Taylor: Yeah, if you're singling children out, oh, the paddling

Rosie: That's gone now. Right? Didn't we get rid of like just a couple of years ago?

Mari: Right. Yeah. Well one of the really interesting was saying if a school system has a uniform dress code and students have a difficult time complying, the system is mandated to find clothing for the student,

Rosie: Oh, okay.

Taylor: Interesting.

Mari: which I am sure most people don't And [00:38:00] I wonder if that could be an issue with maybe why schools don't. Some schools don't have uniforms. It's just so interesting 'cause I feel like the counter is like, you want our kids to feel like they have the freedom to express themselves. It's like, but then we're also gonna say you can't express yourself in these 10 ways.

that. I just, I almost feel like the, you know, the solution might be some type of uniform. Something like khakis and a solid colored shirt or, or something, because I don't think we're gonna change the opinions of staff and administrators that come up with these in the next, you know, however many years to realize that, do wanna wear dresses or have earrings or,, an underwear line showing is not going to prevent anyone's learning. Progress is much slower than we want it to be.

Taylor: Yeah.

Mari: I want, you know, I wonder if uniforms could be the answer, [00:39:00] if maybe that's just like a line item on, on the budget that, we're gonna take away all of this time worrying about enforcing a dress code and disciplining and calling parents and sending notes home. And we're gonna focus on learning you know, we're gonna have, we're gonna have uniforms that we can, we can potentially provide.

Rosie: And to, and to that point, you know, under federal law, it you cannot discriminate restrict a student wearing something that aligns with the gender that they want to present as, or their race, religion, or like other characteristics. Now, just because this is illegal doesn't mean that the

Mari: Right

Taylor: It doesn't happen right.

Mari: Wait, what? I didn't know that.

Rosie: , I, , pulled up some like stories. There was a, uh, North Carolina principal who suspended a high school, student, a girl. And attended her from attending because she wore a slightly off shoulder [00:40:00] top to school.

Mari: Not the shoulder. The dreaded shoulder

Rosie: dare we, what's,

ankle.

Mari: No

Taylor: Stop.

Rosie: There was another,

Taylor: That's outrageous.

Rosie: Texas who drew on a black boy's head in permanent marker cover up a shave design in his hair, which is

Taylor: Oh hell no.

Rosie: I mean, like, it

somehow, I don't know, let's, let's say worst case scenario, the shave de design is like the word fuck or something like that. Well, like we can cover it up like with a hat

Mari: Which is probably against the dress code

Rosie: or, yeah. Or like say, Hey, you know, you need to pick up your son and he needs to

Mari: Yeah, that sounds like, yeah, that sounds like that. that. principle has some issues with

Rosie: Oh, shaved to signs.

Taylor: No doubt. No doubt.

Rosie: Um, and, and also in Texas, a transgender, uh, girl was told [00:41:00] not to return to school until she followed the school's dress code guidelines for boys. So all of

illegal.

You

Mari: mm-hmm.

right.

Rosie: Um, but that doesn't mean that school districts and principals and teachers

Taylor: Yeah.

Rosie: won't try, um, and, and in their own beliefs

students.

Taylor: 100%. And you know, and it's worth it to have these conversations and to, to look at these dress codes because we have this, you know, entire generation of parents where a lot of us are teaching our kids that things like clothing do not have gender assignments. Like clothes don't have genders. The, the idea that we will have kids of, of all types wanting to wear all different types of things, they're, they're gonna have to really take a hard look at these dress codes and how they're enforced and how, um, you know, going back to the beginning of, of our conversation, if they're creating an environment where all kids feel a sense of belonging and feel included, no, no matter how they [00:42:00] present themselves.

Rosie: Yeah. To your point, Taylor, if, the, the teachers are what the students are making fun of pointing out as being weird or different or wrong,

all the, all the other students are gonna feel that way.

Mari: It's a tricky topic. And I think that's kind of what wanna do on this podcast. We wanna talk about some of these things that we experience and that Most folks are experiencing. And maybe look at some of the, you know, look at what our community is saying and, and talk about it amongst the three of us. 'cause we feel like nuance is really missing in a lot of our public discourse today. I think, uh, the internet has helped with that. And, you know, uh, character limits on tweets.

Rosie: Moms for social justice believes kids should go to school naked.

Mari: I mean, no,

Taylor: No.

Mari: You're just asking to be with a stung by a bee on the [00:43:00] playground. Um,

Taylor: Oh

Lord.

Rosie: No, but I think your point,

saying that we understand that that dress codes are beneficial, but I think it's important for school districts, and other, you know, individual

recognize the, difficulties or limitations of their own, like student population, financially,

socially, cult culturally, and write codes that are inclusive and

make kids feel othered.

Taylor: What we're asking for is culturally responsive dress codes.

Rosie: Yes.

Mari: Yes,

Taylor: Is that too much to ask?

Rosie: apparently

Mari: it

Rosie: Apparently it's too much.

Mari: This has been a really interesting conversation. I'm glad we, I would love to hear what other folks who are listening think and what their experiences have been and if, you know, if they have children in their lives, what their experiences has have

And I, you know, I do hope that we see a shift the only way to see a shift is to be that shift [00:44:00] and, you know, be the change you wish to see in your dress code.

Rosie: run school board.

Mari: I mean, it is kind of a full circle moment. If you have questions about this, your, you know, the dress code in your kid's school, maybe, you know, talk to the administrators and if we can get folks to start interrogating some of this. Um, and, and I, like I said before, I really think the important thing is why, why are we doing this? If there are good reasons and it keeps people safe, great. Love that. If it's just because it's always been there, Hmm, let's, let's look at that a little

Taylor: Yeah, if it's, if it's reinforcing, um, shame and, and laying the foundations for rape culture, then maybe we should reexamine it.

Mari: we shouldn't be doing that. So thank you all for joining us with this, uh, nuanced conversation about dress code and all kinds of misinformation out there. we hope you'll join us for another [00:45:00] episode. And, uh, we just wanna remind everyone that. Moms get shit done.

Taylor: Oh, we do

Mari: that's our tagline.

Rosie: We're not gonna say it together though. That's weird.

Mari: Nope. 'cause we tried it and it was very awkward. So we'll see you soon.

We hope this episode encourages you to examine dress codes in your own school district and see if they're actually serving students or not. And if they're not, maybe you can do something about that. Um, Moms4SocialJustice is a 501c4. If you would like to support our work, you can find a donation link on our website, Moms4SocialJustice.

us. And you can find us on all the places, Instagram, Facebook, all that. Thanks for listening. We'll see

you next time. Bye.

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