The Motivate Collective Podcast by Melanie Suzanne Wilson

What if the most powerful currency in business isn't money — it's generosity?

In this conversation, Melanie sits down with Suela Pirushi, Albanian-born founder and CEO of the Milestone Hub, author of The Business Currency is Love, UN Women UK Ambassador, and PhD candidate in Epistemic Leadership and Human-AI Collaboration. Suela has worked across the World Bank, the Ministry of Justice, NGO management, and a decade in B2B commercial partnerships in the UK — and through all of it, one truth has remained constant: business is fundamentally human.

What we explore in this episode:

Suela opens by sharing her remarkable journey from post-communist Albania to the UK, living and studying across Bulgaria, Germany, Italy, and beyond — a life of never quite fitting in that ultimately shaped her as an expert in cultural nuance and cross-border relationship building.

She introduces her philosophy that every successful business must invest in trust, relationships, and generosity — giving before gaining. It's not just a nice idea; she traces how these principles have played out across corporate roles, World Bank projects, NGO leadership, and now her own consultancy.

The conversation turns to AI and the fear many professionals feel about what it means for their futures. Suela reframes it entirely: AI frees us up for the things that matter most — human connection, partnership, and trust. As someone writing a PhD on human-AI collaboration, she speaks with rare authority on both the opportunity and the responsibility.

They also discuss the power of storytelling over statistics in business; why legacy matters more than ROI metrics; how to start a business from scratch using only your existing skills; the importance of going global rather than staying local; and how to navigate authentic online presence without oversharing.

Suela closes with three lessons every business owner needs to carry: give before you gain, build relationships — not transactions, and always see the human being in front of you.

Guest Bio:

Suela Pirushi is the founder and CEO of the Milestone Hub, a consultancy and coaching company helping small businesses and solopreneurs convert their expertise into revenue. She is the author of The Business Currency is Love, available on Amazon, and holds three master's degrees alongside an in-progress PhD in Epistemic Leadership and Human-AI Collaboration. Suela is an Ambassador for UN Women UK and volunteers for two UK charities — one supporting women experiencing violence, the other helping young women and girls from Albanian origins access STEM education. She is based in Buckinghamshire, UK.

My website: www.themilestonehub.com The book: Amazon Australia

https://www.amazon.com.au/s?k=suela+pirushi+the+business+currency+is+love&crid=ZZEG8JYBMUDO&sprefix=the+business+currency+is+love%2Caps%2C240&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_1_29 Amazon.co.uk

Amazon UK

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=the+business+currency+is+love+suela+pirushi&crid=2G13WF4MY9UOQ&sprefix=the+business+currency+is+love+suela+pirushi%2Caps%2C327&ref=nb_sb_ss_mvt-t11-ranker_1_43 amazon.com

Amazon US

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=the+business+currency+is+love+suela+pirushi&crid=B1NXMNPHUHKF&sprefix=the+business+currency+is+love+suela+pirushi%2Caps%2C247&ref=nb_sb_noss

Connect with Suela: Find her book The Business Currency is Love on Amazon.

🎙️ Listen now via your favourite podcast platform — links below.

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SHOW NOTES 🎙️ The Motivate Collective Podcast Episode: From Paralysis to Purpose — Aakriti on Resilience, Self-Love & the Psychology of Healing

CONTENT NOTICE & SUPPORT RESOURCES

Before you press play, please read this.

This episode contains an open and thoughtful conversation about physical disability, depression, anxiety, mental health, and the long road to healing. Aakriti shares her lived experience with courage and clinical insight — and some of what she shares may bring up feelings in you.

If you are currently struggling, please know that you are not alone and that support is available right now.

GET HELP NOW

Australia

• Lifeline — 13 11 14 | lifeline.org.au (24/7 crisis support, call or chat)

• Beyond Blue — 1300 22 4636 | beyondblue.org.au (anxiety, depression, mental health)

• Suicide Call Back Service — 1300 659 467 | suicidecallbackservice.org.au (24/7 counselling)

• 13YARN — 13 92 76 (24/7 crisis support for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples)

• Kids Helpline — 1800 55 1800 | kidshelpline.com.au (for young people aged 5–25)

India

• iCall — 9152987821 | icallhelpline.org (psychology-based counselling)

• Vandrevala Foundation — 1860-2662-345 | vandrevalafoundation.com (24/7 mental health helpline)

• NIMHANS — nimhans.ac.in (National Institute of Mental Health)

International

• findahelpline.com — find crisis support in your country

EPISODE SUMMARY

At 18 years old, Aakriti was prescribed the wrong medication — and woke up to find the left side of her body paralysed. Overnight, the confident, independent young woman entering her first year of college became entirely dependent on her family for every basic task. What followed was four years of psychological recovery, surgery, and an 18-year journey of healing that is still unfolding today.

In this episode of The Motivate Collective, Aakriti — rehabilitation psychologist, counselling psychologist, art therapist, and career counsellor — shares her lived experience of disability, depression, perfectionism, and the slow rebuilding of confidence and identity. She speaks candidly about the difficulty of finding the right therapist, the importance of self-love and emotional regulation, and why her own story of loss and resilience became the foundation of her entire career.

This is a conversation about how much life can change, and how much more it can give you in return — if you're willing to make peace with the path it takes.

GUEST BIO

Aakriti (At Peace Artist) is a rehabilitation psychologist, counselling psychologist, art therapist, and career counsellor based in India with six years of professional experience in psychology. Her current work focuses on vocational rehabilitation for young people with autism and ADHD — equipping them with life skills and pathways toward independence. Aakriti's clinical focus areas include adolescent mental health, anxiety, and addiction. Her brand, At Peace Artist, reflects her core philosophy: that healing requires finding a therapist and support system you genuinely feel at peace with. She is also a guest lecturer and handcraft business owner, and is currently working with her own therapist after a years-long search for the right fit.

WHAT WE COVER IN THIS EPISODE

[00:00] — Introduction and Aakriti's remarkable professional background [01:49] — The medication error at 18 that paralysed her left side and derailed her life [03:19] — Losing independence overnight: the psychological impact of physical dependency [04:20] — How she began to heal — and the therapist she still calls her angel [06:17] — Family as the first pillar of recovery; why her father's positivity was everything [07:23] — 18 years on: what residual symptoms still look like and why she keeps going [08:32] — The neuroscience of eating together and the loneliness epidemic [10:39] — Social media addiction, virtual autism, and what Aakriti sees in her clinic [13:09] — What people really need: not someone checking on them, but someone to turn to [14:10] — Setting boundaries without burning out: emotional regulation in caring professions [16:43] — You can't pour from an empty cup: the truth about self-care for helpers [18:58]— Preparing to be well — not just recovering after the fact [21:29] — Sharing your lived experience as a story of resilience for others [25:06] — The long search for the right therapist — and why fit matters more than credentials[28:10] — How to lead a wellness space while being gloriously imperfect [30:11] — Breaking perfectionism: how her health crisis dismantled every rigid expectation [33:43] — Losing a plan, gaining wisdom: the 360-degree career switch from design to psychology [37:32] — Three lessons everybody needs: self-love, gratitude, and self-forgiveness [40:08]— How to rebuild confidence after a sudden health shock

KEY INSIGHTS FROM THIS EPISODE

On identity and sudden loss of independence Aakriti's lived experience of losing physical function at 18 — the exact age most young people step into independence — offers a profound mirror for anyone who has ever had the rug pulled out. She needed her mother to dress her. She needed someone to take her to the bathroom. Understanding how that feels is essential context for the empathy she now brings to her clients.

On finding the right therapeutic support Aakriti searched for the right therapist three times over nearly two decades. Her lived experience taught her that a credential is not the same as a connection — and that feeling safe, heard, and at peace in the room is what makes therapy work. She named her brand At Peace Artist precisely because of this insight.

On self-love as a clinical tool — not a luxury Aakriti is direct: self-love is not selfish. It is the prerequisite for caring for anyone else. Her lived experience of burning out, of cancelling clients, of showing up depleted, informs the boundary-setting and emotional regulation work she now teaches to every client — particularly women in India who have been culturally conditioned to give everything to others first.

On perfectionism and letting go Before her health changed, Aakriti had a list of exactly when she would graduate, start her career, and marry. Her illness dismantled all of it — and she now considers that one of the greatest gifts of her recovery. The lived experience of losing control taught her that plan B, C, and all the way to Z are not failures. They are options.

On turning pain into purpose Aakriti changed careers entirely because of what she went through. She could not find a therapist who understood her condition — so she decided to become one. Her lived experience of navigating the mental health system from the inside became the reason she entered the field at all.

STANDOUT QUOTES

"It gave me much more than it took away. I'm okay with that."

"You can't pour from an empty cup."

"Self-love is not selfish. You have to take care of yourself to take care of others."

"I didn't want there to be another Aakriti suffering from all this."

"To err is human. You are a human being; you are going to make mistakes. Forgive yourself."

"If you fall, there will be someone who will hold you up."

"Not having plans is the best way to live."

"I have 26 alphabets for a reason. We can have plan Z also."

AAKRITI'S THREE LESSONS FOR EVERYONE

1. Self-love — You cannot give from an empty cup. Taking care of yourself is not selfishness; it is the foundation of caring for everyone else.

2. Gratitude — You don't always know what someone else is carrying. Be kind. Be grateful for what is manageable in your own life — and if it isn't manageable, seek support.

3. Self-forgiveness — You are human. You will make mistakes. Learn to forgive yourself as readily as you would forgive someone you love. It lifts a weight you didn't realise you were carrying.

HOW TO REBUILD CONFIDENCE AFTER A HEALTH SHOCK(Aakriti's clinical advice from lived experience)

• Ask for help without hesitation. When you let people in, confidence returns.

• Stop looking backwards for blame. Focus forward — what is possible now, not what went wrong then.

• Surround yourself with positive, empathetic, non-judgmental people. Honest and kind are not opposites. You need real people, not just cheerleaders — but you need them to be in your corner.

RESOURCES AND LINKS MENTIONED

🌐 Follow Aakriti on Instagram: @atpeaceartist 🎙️ Aakriti has previously appeared on two podcasts in India — one on Spotify, one on YouTube

CONNECT WITH THE MOTIVATE COLLECTIVE

🎙️ Listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts 🌿 Join The Motivate Collective community for more conversations, events, and resources built around growth, wellness, and conscious living: www.motivatecollective.com

TAGS / CATEGORIES Mental Health | Psychology | Rehabilitation | Resilience | Self-Love | Boundaries | Personal Development | Wellness | Gratitude | Healing | Disability | Perfectionism | Emotional Regulation | Forgiveness | Purpose

Produced by The Motivate Collective | Host: Melanie Suzanne Wilson

Aakriti Transcript

Aakriti (At Peace. A (00:00)

It's Akriti.

Perfectly, baby.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:05)

How do you explain to everybody, first of all, what exactly you do?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (00:10)

Okay, I have a long list of that, but okay, let's give it a try. So, I'm a rehabilitation psychologist. I'm a counselling psychologist. I'm a career counsellor. I'm an art therapist. I'm a guest lecturer. I have my own do-do business also on the side but my basic work is with psychology. I've been in this since now six years it has been since I've been in psychology and yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:12)

We'll come back.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (00:39)

I've been a psychologist for 6 years now,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:39)

What general psychology do you specialise in, anything in particular?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (00:46)

This is the counselling one. We deal with adolescents. It's basically anxiety, addiction and any kind. The rehab ones, yes, that is the rehab one that is the main. That is what I'm doing right now. We are doing a vocational rehab thing where we bring in the kids with special needs, the autism, the ADHD ones. We teach them life skills, and they learn to on through it. That is what we're doing currently.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:58)

Are you working with extreme special needs?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (01:18)

No, exchange station needs as of now.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:22)

Okay, so low-level special needs with high functioning in life.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (01:28)

Right, the people who can be trained for what they can do in life, so that they can be independent basically. That's our main motto to make them independent somehow.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:40)

Right, right. So they can aim for independence. That's great. What led you to want to focus on this specialty?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (01:49)

Okay, so I was like completely ill at a point of time when I was 18. I was on my bed like completely on bed rest. couldn't move. My left half was paralysed due to some wrong medications that happened. I particularly have, sorry.

I was given some wrong medications that led to my left side getting paralysed like completely. I wasn't able to move it at all, so it yeah I wasn't well at that time

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:17)

Are you saying you were okay, and then you got the wrong medication, and then your left side went paralysed?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (02:28)

Yeah, that happened with me. So it took four years.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:31)

My goodness!

Remind everybody,

Sorry, remind everybody how old were you when this happened?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (02:40)

Sorry?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:41)

How old were you when you became parallel? What a way to start adulthood.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (02:43)

I was 18. 18.

What a way to start college, was in the first year of college at that time. So that got disrupted completely, life was a complete mess. I couldn't get what I was going into, what was going around me. Depression, anxiety, all of that came along with it. So yeah, that was a bad phase basically. It took me four years to get out of it. Somehow, the psychological part, it took me four years, and then I had to go through surgery for my left leg

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:00)

So you took what four years, did you say?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (03:14)

Okay, okay.

Yeah, four years to get better psychologically.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:19)

Did that mean you were looking for confidence and faith in your abilities? Was it the overcoming of the depression?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (03:31)

Both you can say overcoming the depression and getting my confidence back, because I lost it completely when this happened. know, being a chirpy girl who's just going around anywhere she wants to, and now she's dependent on someone, especially my family, my parents. had to be, like even for the washroom, I had to tell my mother, me to the washroom. That was the condition at that time. So, we did become that bad.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:54)

U.S. Tourism Administration don't know what the age is for adulthood in your country, but here, where I am in Australia, people become independent adults, at least officially at 18, and you are becoming the opposite of independent at that age.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (04:00)

Your team.

True that. True that. Yes. Yes. That is what it was.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:20)

How did you make peace with that change?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (04:25)

At that time, psychology was a completely alien topic to me, honestly. I never even had heard about it. This all happened in 2008. Psychology wasn't a great term at that time. So we were like, okay, let's try to understand what was going on with me. I met my therapist. She made me

I wanted to understand how it all works, but I wasn't ready to give in. I was like, no, can't, I am not able to accept it as of now. But she was very patient with me. She sat with me throughout. She gave me complete four to five years. She was with me throughout through thick and thin. She was there with me all the time. And she was the one who basically got me out of it. I still call her my angel for that reason.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:10)

Does this mean you were trying to figure out what had even happened?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (05:18)

So we figured out almost in six months, but the thing wasn't going away. The paralysis part wasn't going away. I was still on bed. I couldn't walk. I couldn't do anything on my own. Even dressing was my mom's thing. She used to dress me up, and everything was, I was completely dependent. Like I couldn't do even one thing by myself. Only the college work is what I could do by myself. Nothing else.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:44)

So, for at least half a year of not being able to live independently, he didn't even know why.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (05:53)

Yes, I was completely clueless what was happening around me. Completely clueless.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:00)

Did you feel scared?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (06:02)

Very scared. was just crying all the time. I didn't know what to do with my life. I wasn't even sure I was going to live through it. I was like, no, I don't even want to live like this.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:04)

Wow, what brought you out of that darkness?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (06:17)

I believe it could be my family, first of all, they were very, very supportive, very understanding. They were the first ones who were basically there for me. They were like, no, you will get better. We are there to support you. Especially my father, he was very, very positive about it. He was very sure we will get out of it. And he's still there. He's still like that, that you will get out of it completely. I'm still not out of it. I still have still need support to walk sometimes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:39)

Aakriti (At Peace. A (06:45)

And whenever I get a bit anxious, starts twitching. So you can see that the paralysis part comes back somehow.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:50)

You get anxious and stressed.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (06:54)

Whenever I am stressed, this part again starts twitching; my left hand won't function properly. It is still, the residual part is still there, it hasn't completely gone away. But I'm still in therapy, and they say it will leave in a few years now. So just waiting. It has been 18 years, and we're still working on it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:12)

18 years.

You're saying that over time, everything should ease gradually so you can feel a bit, but not much.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (07:23)

Yes, it is going away. won't say it is still that troublesome. I do my whole work by myself. That is a big achievement for me right now. I can do everything in my room. I can even cook sometimes. I do like to cook. can even cook. That is a big achievement for me. At least I have a life skill with me that will keep me alive. But yeah, I still need help.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:48)

Cooking is so important because you can help yourself to feel healthy and get energy with the right foods, and you can feel some control over what you are eating when you know what goes into your food.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (08:05)

True, true. It also involves feeding the family. like to, like, they have been through so much along with me. So I like to do something for them in return. So that is my way. I like to sometimes cook something for them so that they can also enjoy. They can also feel I'm there for them. So they're going over now. So I have to take care of them, is what I realised. So I have to get better for that too, not just for myself.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:28)

Yep.

For your family.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (08:31)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:32)

It's a great feeling of being useful, and also, some people say that we can live longer when we eat with other people instead of in isolation.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (08:41)

Yes.

That happens, is a chemical thing that happens in the brain. Call it chemical imbalance or chemical balance, whatever you call it. Yeah, it happens whenever you are with your family or you're eating with anyone for that matter. That gives you more happiness, that would give you a satiety, feeling of satiety very soon. I give that to my clients also that you should eat with someone. I know you are not feeling well. Even when I was depressed, I won't eat with anyone.

You need to force yourself for that, for at least one meal a day with someone, at least. So that girl that does help them, yeah. I give that out to my clientele.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:22)

Do you ever see that your clients just have the option of eating in a public space around other people instead of eating alone in isolation? Do you find that that's a step in a good direction?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (09:37)

That is for some; some are like very, very introverted. They won't, they are not very confident in public. They don't feel like eating in public. I am also one of them. I am, I don't eat at marriages at all. I can't eat with so many people around me which is a problem with me, I guess. But yeah, that depends on the person basically.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:57)

So essentially, do you think we should either feast with our families or our unofficial chosen families that could be friends or a community?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (10:10)

I'm sorry I didn't get the question.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:12)

Should we... are you saying we should eat with family or community or friends?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (10:20)

We should, at least one meal a day should be with someone. Rest, you can have it on your own, but at least one meal a day should be with someone. Especially breakfast, for that matter, that's how you begin your day, but yeah, otherwise also it's okay.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:33)

What difference have you seen? What change have you seen when people do this?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (10:39)

The feeling of loneliness that we are seeing nowadays, people are being too much involved in their phones and the social media is what is engrossing them a lot, it keeps them busy but the feeling of having a person, a physical person in front of you that gives you a feeling of having someone, not the loneliness, the loneliness feelings, it just goes away somehow.

Plus, social media is causing many problems. The addiction is the thing that we are seeing right now in my clinic. have seen a lot of kids. The virtual autism thing is coming up. Kids are getting addicted to phones, 2 or 3 year olds and they go to show symptoms of autism. Perfectly fine kids. But they got addicted to the screen and now they showing signs of autism. So that also happened. That is a reversible thing, but still, that is there.

When we see kids with addictions, social media, yeah. Social media is causing a lot of problems, too. It is there for a benefit, but we are not using it for a benefit. When we are at it, it problems all around. So that is something I tell them: keep your phone down. That's what I do. If I am with my family, no phones in the room. I have made it a strict rule, if you come to my room, no phones in my room. You have to talk to me. You can watch the TV, but no phones in my room. So no one is allowed to see phones in my room.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:05)

That you can see some social benefit from some things we do on the phone. I know this podcast recording is sharing your story with people anywhere. However, it sounds like we also need to remember to see people in person or gather together.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (12:26)

That is the necessity, that is how we get out of that shell that we have created around us. And that is, we have a bubble around us that tells us, no you are alone, you don't have anyone, you don't know how to ask for help, you have lost all your social skills. But having someone around will give you that confidence, okay? No, you have someone you can rely on, you can give a call to someone, and someone will be there for you.

Now that gives a sense of you being, a sense of having someone around is just a sense of happiness I feel. For some, it is, for some, it isn't, but that again depends on the person. But yeah, having someone would actually give you a sense of happiness is what I feel.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:09)

Do you find that generally, for happiness and survival, people need to know that someone out there is wondering if they are okay?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (13:20)

Wondering if they're okay, I'm not sure, but someone out there is there for them. Just, you know, knowing that you have someone you can rely on. That would do the task.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:21)

Someone to turn to.

So someone to turn to when you need it.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (13:34)

Exactly. You have someone; if you fall, there will be someone who will hold you up.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:40)

To hold you up, that's a great way to put it. And a question there, I know that people get burned out, people get tired and busy. I'm wondering how can we hold up the people around us without feeling too busy and tired, or without doing too much, doing more than we can fit in our day.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (14:10)

So we teach boundaries, I have been teaching that a lot to my clients. Boundaries are something you need to learn. You need to learn how and when to create it. I won't say stay in the boundaries forever. It can be permeable for someone; it could be a normal, big boundary for someone, but you need to have a boundary. You need to have emotional regulation for that part.

When you regulate yourself emotionally, you are a healthy dietitian, then you can take care of someone. When you are not healthy, you can't take care of anyone. If you are burnt out,

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:42)

Just remember, so we need a boundary.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (14:46)

Yes, you need to have boundaries because that is how you take care of yourself. Self-love is the thing that comes here. When you can't take care of yourself, you won't be able to take care of anyone around you. If I'm emotionally burnt out, a client comes to me, I won't be able to take care of them like I would have normally. So I, on the days that I'm not well, I avoid taking clients, as you know, I am not well, I won't be taking any clients today cause I don't feel fine. That is how it should be, I believe

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:18)

Does that mean it's okay for professionals to say, I need to cancel a few things occasionally if I am suddenly feeling not quite okay?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (15:33)

Yes, you can say that I usually take my appointments in the morning. So that is how I know if I'm not going to cancel out on anyone. Yes, if that happens, cancelling, we don't feel good. We don't feel good while cancelling on someone because we know the person is having trouble. That is the reason they're coming to us. And if we also cancel out on them, then what is going to happen with that person? We have to take care of them, too.

If I am not able to give my 100%, then what is the point of them coming to me, seeking for help or seeking for solutions? What is the point then? If I am not giving my 100 %?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:15)

I'm like,

I apologise so much. Yes, go for it. Tell us more because I think that some of us show up when we are feeling empty, and you're saying you need to refill your cell and you need to have what you need to be able to give and provide help.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (16:43)

True, true. Yes. You can't pour from an empty cup is a famous saying there, and that applies to almost every one of us. Especially us in the healthcare professions. That has to be a thing. We can't take care of anyone when we are not well. Even for my family, even for my mother, say that if you are not feeling well, how are you going to take care of us? Please take care of yourself first. That is how you will take care of us. Because she is the one taking care of the whole family. She has to be well, for that matter.

If she lies on bed, the whole family would be shaken. I know she's a pillar of the family. So that is why I always preach self-love to every lady out there, especially in India that happens. Females here forget about self, they are just about the family, about the people, about the person with them, but they don't think about themselves. That is why I have that boundary part. I teach them emotion regulation. The self-love thing is...

I can call it preaching. I am kind of preaching it to everyone out there. They not teaching but I like to preach it to every person out there. That is me. That is how I have been well throughout the years. That is how I have gone out of my shell, not being well. So now I can proudly say I am getting better. I am not perfectly fine, but I am getting better every day because I know what gets me better. So, emotional regulation has to be there.

And sometimes when you are feeling like, okay, I don't think I can do this. You still have to take in the client cause cancelling out on them isn't something that is doable on a particular day. You can't cancel out on someone as randomly. You need to take time for that. We give them a 24-hour car notice period before they cancel on us. So we also have that thing in us that we have to take 24 hours at least before cancelling out on them.

So we have to be mindful about that too. If I have a session with you tomorrow, I have to be mindful that I have to take care of myself today. So I don't have to cancel out on you tomorrow. That is something we have to keep in mind so that we don't have to cancel out on anyone, for that matter.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:58)

That right there is the importance of self-care. We have to prepare to be well.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (19:05)

Go. Go.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:07)

That is so crucial, and it's going back to basics. I can tell you some organisations have been asking lately, how can people be well? And it sounds like a part of this is through setting up the habits, but also preparing when you know more things will be happening, allow yourself the time leading up to it.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (19:31)

Hmm.

True, yes. If I know I have like I have three appointments today. So yesterday I was on off, I was taking care of myself, working on my things, but not seeing clients per se. That is how I prepared for myself. I have three appointments in the day today. Like three different appointments, different meetings. I don't have clients, but I meetings today. So I prepared for it yesterday, and I didn't take any clients yesterday.

I booked for Thursday and Friday, but not for Wednesday. That is what I did.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:05)

Clients and podcast recording.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (20:07)

I like to multitask, that is me, I guess. I like to multitask, I like to do everything that I can do. That is why I have a Jholi business too with me. I like to make Jholi by hand, that is what I do there. So yeah, that is my therapy, I guess.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:22)

It's wonderful having these conversations on the show and exploring what we need and how we can solve things. I find that it's just a great sense of community, and it's therapeutic for us as creators. I agree with you. Have you been on any other podcasts?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (20:41)

So it is.

Yes, I've been on two before this. Both in India, but I've been on two before this. One is on Spotify, and one is on YouTube right now. So yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:55)

Right. So this is your first one outside of India.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (21:00)

Yes, yes, that is the first one. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:03)

Awesome. And what I'm curious, so you're sharing your truth and you're being brave in sharing your experience about your health and your work. Have you seen that it is helping you in sharing your truth with the world?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (21:29)

Yes, I believe it gives out a story of resilience to people. can see, if this person who has been through so much can do this, then why can't I? So that is what I have heard from my clients. Okay, we have seen you, and we feel that we have nothing in front of us. Not comparing, personally, I don't say compare your problems with mine. Not a fair way to deal with it because you might have bigger problems which are not showing up yet, but mine is visible because it is physical. Yours might not be, since it's psychological. It might not be visible to people. But still, I'm not saying compare it. But the story of resilience is what I hear people love. And even my clients, my family, they all told me to write a book about it. But me being Ganesh, I don't write anything. But they want me to write a book about it. It will inspire more people out there.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:24)

I think you should write a book about your experience, and did you say that you were 18 around 2008?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (22:31)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:32)

You are pretty close to my age. And I was going to say that earlier. I'm really close to your age. And so it's sinking in so much for me that I know life can feel so long after this much adulthood. And what I'm learning from your story is that we take for granted what we do have. Seriously.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (22:57)

True, yes, that happens. Now, if I talk to someone and they're like, okay, but you know, this happened with me, I say, okay, that is your problem, that is what you're going through, but you will come out of it. But don't forget to say your gratitude, because you might have something that the other person might not have. You at least have access to therapy; some people don't even have that. For example, if you have a problem with your family for some matter, they never had that exposure to therapy, weren't, you know, they didn't have this option of therapy when they were young. But you have it. Your blessings, for that matter. Say gratitude that you have that thing that you can talk to someone you can understand, and you can, you know, get better in life. They didn't have that option.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:43)

Even in lots of locations, there's so much access to therapy now. Over here, some services are covered by public insurance, but also there are online therapies that you can access anywhere. And have you found that therapy is so much more accessible than it used to be?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (24:01)

Hmm.

Honestly, yes, when I was not well, and I was trying to find a therapist for myself, it took me around a year to like have a therapist, like find a therapist who could treat me okay. See, she left the country after five years, and she's not in the country right now. When she was handing me over to someone else, we again had that problem. Again, it took me time to find a therapist who could like actually understand my condition because I was out of it now, but I still needed therapy somehow.

I was out of bed-reading version, but still, I needed some kind of therapy. Still, there was something residual in me. Again, it took me years to find a good therapist for myself. Now she left the job after that. Now, the third time, when I had to look for a therapist and now I am a therapist myself, it becomes all the more difficult. Since I have access, most of them are my colleagues or friends. Now I am stuck. What do I do?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:39)

Yeah.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (25:06)

So it took me a lot of time. It took me a lot of time to find a therapist. Now I have found a therapist for myself. Almost after 6 or 7 years, I could find a therapist for myself. It took me 6 to 7 years to find a therapist. I have been on and off with therapy. I have been trying to find a therapist, but I couldn't. I feel miserably at that. So finally I found a therapist. Now that is after about 6 years, and I have just had one session with her, but I feel better already.

So I know this one is meant to be for me. Finding a therapist and finding a therapist who fits your condition is the thing here. Like, who understands, yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:48)

Are you saying it's okay to look for the right person instead of just anyone?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (25:54)

True, you have to find the right person for that matter. Yes, that would be a correct word. Not saying fit, but yeah. Finding a correct therapist who you feel a vibe with when you talk to them. That is what I personally feel. I don't feel vibes with someone, and I say no, this isn't going to work, because I know I'm not feeling that with you. I don't feel that peace of safety. I don't feel that peace while I'm talking to you. So that won't lead to a good therapy session, that is what I realised so as I say go for a therapist who you feel at peace with that is why I have the name at peace artist that is the reason I have my pages name at peace artist. That is my brand, that is why I came up with it

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:38)

I'm so keen to ask also as a therapist and as someone who goes to therapy, I'm curious, do you see that it's important to even simply have someone to talk to at all?

just to talk to someone.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (26:53)

It is very important to have someone to talk to. I feel if after I have had a very hard or very heavy therapy session, call it maybe for grief counselling or trauma counselling, at that point of time I would need someone to talk to. I don't need to share the details with them. Just a 15-minute break with someone, could just chit chat and could come back to my room. That gives me lot of power back.

Although I have talked a lot in this session, I am tired from talking, but I still need that kind of interaction, that kind of conversation to happen. So that I can feel myself again for the next client. have to be prepared for them too. So I feel yes, it is very very important to have someone to talk to. And the person has to be someone with matching with your EQ. Otherwise, you will go crazy again.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:42)

The right emotional intelligence… is that what you're saying?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (27:46)

Yes, yes, exactly.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:48)

That's crucial. I'm wondering how can we, when we are leading a wellness space or a health space, how can we let ourselves be flawed when still showing strength and courage at the same time?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (28:10)

I didn't get it right, I'm sorry.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:11)

Okay, so when we are leading health spaces, how can we let ourselves be not perfect when still showing courage and being brave at the same time?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (28:17)

Hmm?

I feel that's human, right? That is what human beings are. We don't have to be perfect. We have to be good humans. That's all that matters in a therapy room or in a therapy space. matters. I... Initially, I was like, what do people think when they see me walking with someone, walking with the help of someone? Because that's what I do. I get scared while walking alone because of the surgery that happened with me. So I need someone to hold my hand. Initially, I was very, very sceptical. How would...

The clients feel that their client, their therapist, is not perfect themselves. How would they feel? But later on, I realised I don't have to be that person for them. I have to be a therapist in the room. I have to be a different person in the room. When I am sitting with them, I am there as a therapist. I am a human being. I can have my flaws, but they are all outside the room. Inside the room, I am a human being sitting with them, trying to provide them a completely judgment-free space, trying to be their empathetic partner there, then. So yeah, initially I was very, very sceptical. But now I know I am a human being, I can make mistakes, I can have regrets, I can have anything and everything that they have. But in that room, I had to be very, very true to myself and true to the client. That is that all that matters is what I believe. That is what is important.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:49)

Yes.

Were you feeling your perfectionism when you wanted someone to hold your hand and are you saying you wanted a bit of help to walk steady and you had to feel confident and know you are great despite needing help?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (30:11)

Hmm?

Yes, I would say yes. My perfectionism has been there since I was a child. I know that for myself. I don't know how you came to know about it, but that was me when I was a child. I needed everything at that particular time in that particular order. That was me when I was a child. But it all got disrupted because of this thing. Because now it was my mother who was doing things for me. So it all got disrupted. So every, every, what do you call it?

I don't remember the word, but every thought, every stupid thought that I had, that if this doesn't happen in this way, it would lead to something bad. That was how I used to be when I was 18 years old. But all that broke due to all this, so I'm happy about it. The myths that I had, that they all just broke away somehow in therapy rooms and after therapy rooms also. The perfectionism thing was there.

I guess it is still there to some extent, but now it's not hurting me or anyone. Initially, it was hurting everyone around me, including me. Because that is how I needed things to be. Now I'm like, okay, if they're not going this way, they'll go that way. We'll have a plan B, we'll have a plan C. have 26 alphabets for a reason. We can have plan Z also. That is how it can be. Now it is okay to make mistakes, to fall down. It is okay.

I have to go with the flow, have to understand how things work. I don't have to be a perfect person. Otherwise, I would be a god, for that matter. I am a human being. I am happy being a human being.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:47)

It sounds like you're saying that as human being, we can't control everything. And it sounds like even before your health changed, were, so even before your health changed, you were wanting everything to be perfect. Am I, no? After? Yes, that was right. So you wanted things to be perfect. Even after, sorry, even before

Aakriti (At Peace. A (32:08)

Yes, yes, exactly. Exactly.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:16)

Your health changed from an early age, and it sounds like I'm guessing a health change would teach you the lesson that you can't control everything.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (32:25)

That's what happened, and that makes me happy now. Initially, it was very, very depressing, but now I'm happy about it. That is how I was taught, and I'm okay about it. That is how I had to learn this thing. But I learned something good out of it. That makes me happy. Okay, this happened, but it taught me something good in life. It gave me much more than it took away. I'm okay with that. I'm completely fine with it now. I've made my peace, basically, is what I believe.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:52)

You made peace. gave you lessons. It gave you wisdom.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (32:59)

It did. And this is what made me change my course in life. It made me switch the career that I was in. I was into a leading design college in my graduation. Yes. And I switched to psychology in my master's. I did clinical psychology in my master's. So that helped me make a switch. Because I understood the condition of mental health in the country, I could see what is going on.

I could see that I couldn't find a therapist myself. So I said, no, I have to do something that another girl doesn't face a problem like this. There isn't another Akriti for that reason is what I say. I didn't want there to be another Akriti suffering from all this. Let's get into the field and let's understand what happens inside the field. So that even if I'm able to help a person, even if one person I'm able to help, I've done my need.

I've lived my life, I'm okay with it, I've made peace with it again. So, yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:00)

amazing. You are inspiring people even more than I realised because we're all going to lose something at some point. We go through grief, we have an injury. For me, I broke my leg years ago, and I took years to recover, but I can walk around now, and I can tell you that I was losing other things

Aakriti (At Peace. A (34:09)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:29)

More recently, and what I'm seeing from you is that we do lose things and then we gain things, and we're not going to have control over all of that.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (34:42)

Trying to control would make us even more crazy, more anxious, even more depressed when things don't go our way. So why try to do that? Yes, some things are needed to be controlled. That is okay. But we have to also learn the art of letting go. We have to let go. Some things, at least in life. Not everything is going to go according to our plan. I had a great plan when I was 17, 16. I had like a long list of plans. What I'm going to do with my life.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:59)

Letting go.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (35:11)

It took a complete 360 there. I don't know what happened then, and the switch has been quite a major switch to be honest. Not even a smaller one. It has been a major switch. I was supposed to get my 26 according to my list. I'm 36 and still single. So... Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:31)

So you made a list before the health change. Are you saying that you wanted to be married by a particular age? Did I hear that right?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (35:35)

Yes, I have the complete list.

Yes, yes that was my plan when I was 16, okay? This is the age I'll have my career, like I might have made my career, and this is the age that I plan to marry. That was my plan when I was 16. I'll make plans for next 10 years.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:00)

You say you are 36 now, we are close enough to the same age, and it's nice to, and by the way, for those listening on audio, we are both wearing blue, and it's reassuring to, this is what I love about the podcast. I'm in Australia, you're in India, right? And we can say, okay, at this age, you don't know what's going to happen. And all you can do is make

Aakriti (At Peace. A (36:11)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:27)

Peace with how unpredictable life is.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (36:31)

I still can't make a plan. Now I'm a bit afraid of making plans. I'm like, okay, let us see whatever comes. We'll go according to that. We're not making any plans now. So my father said you should think about marriage when you're 35. I said, okay, let's think about it now. The thinking process has started somehow, but no plans as of now. I'm just happy being in the family. I'm just happy being here in my mother's house. I'm happy with that right now.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:00)

Okay. To get nearer the end of the conversation, I like to find some wisdom that everybody can learn from. Some big truths. And do you have three lessons that everybody needs to learn or do after this? It could be as simple as gratitude, just any concept.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (37:07)

Hmm.

Hmm?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:28)

anything that everybody needs to remember to be okay.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (37:32)

The first and the major one here I would like to talk about is self-love. We talked about, and I still would like to talk about, because I believe people still lack in that part. They still not okay with the self-love part. They feel it is being greedy, being selfish. But self-love is not selfish is the line that we give here. Self-love will never be selfish. You have to take care of yourself to take care of others around you. The first would be that.

Second, believe having gratitude is very, very important. We never know having gratitude is something that is very important in life. Yes, we don't know what the other person is going through. We have to be kind to them, and we have to be grateful that we are not going through something major. The thing that we have is okay and is manageable, yet. If it is not manageable, go talk to a therapist, but if it is manageable, let it be with you.

Let yourself be through it. Try to go through it and try to understand what happened, how it happened and how you have come over it. So that gives you a life lesson to move on in life, making peace with it. The third one is going to be a bit difficult, that's to think about it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:49)

Okay, what's one thing you wish you knew when you were little?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (38:54)

Not having plans is the best way to live. Nothing in life needs perfection. To err is human, is what I have kept in front of me right now. To err is human. You are a human being; you are going to make mistakes. Forgive yourself. Learn to forgive yourself. The third one came out. You have to learn to forgive yourself. Yes. Practice forgiveness for others and for yourself, too.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:56)

What happened?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (39:21)

That takes away the burden to a great extent when you sleep at night. When you learn to forgive others along with yourself. I wasn't able to do this. I'm a bad person. No, that is how you learn to forgive yourself. That is why self-love is important again. yeah. The third one also came out, and we have a lesson. Yeah. Sorry.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:41)

Forgive yourself and others.

They are great lessons. Crete, thank you so much for sharing your truth. And beyond these three lessons, one other thing I wanted to check is if someone does get a big surprise with their health, how can they return to their confidence?

Aakriti (At Peace. A (40:08)

Okay. For that, I would say don't hesitate in asking for help is the first thing is when you ask for help, you have people around you, then the confidence somehow gets restored. Plus, don't start blaming. Don't look for reasons out there when you're in, you have gotten a very big shock or surprise, as you call it, with your head. Don't try to look for what you did, what could be going wrong. Look for what could you

What could you do with your life now? What could be your future now? Not going in the past, going for the future. And the third one would be having as many positive people around you. Now, positive is what I'm putting the weight on. Positive is what you need to find back your confidence. If you would have negative people, you'll have only criticism and that won't let you have back your confidence.

Yes, not everything is sugary and sweet, but you can have a bit of mean words in between, that is okay, but you need to have real people for that matter. Who are empathetic, who are positive and who are non-judgmental. They can give you good feedback, and you can get back to your life more easily. I had a lot of foster people around me, and it did give me a great, great help to move on in life.

The people that I found, I still cherish them. They are still with me. It has been almost 17-18 years, they still with me. They still in my life. The friends that I found at that point of age. My school friends are there, but these are the people that I can cherish for my whole life. They were there when I actually needed someone, and they held my hand when I wanted them to. Without even asking once. So having such a person in life is a blessing, I believe.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:02)

Have people in your life.

Aakriti, thank you so much again. You are so brave, and you are so bold, and I hope so many people can hear about your story and your strengths. Thank you.

Aakriti (At Peace. A (42:18)

Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for listening to me. Thank you so

Renee Borgelt lost her husband to suicide after 32 years together. Hear her lived experience of grief, healing through meditation, and finding purpose on the other side.🎙️ The Motivate Collective Podcast

⚠️ CONTENT NOTICE & SUPPORT RESOURCES

Before you press play, please read this.

This episode contains an honest and compassionate conversation about suicide, suicide loss, grief, PTSD, and mental health. The lived experiences shared here are told with courage and care — and they may bring up feelings of your own.

If you are currently struggling, please know: you are not alone, and support is available right now.

🆘 GET HELP NOW

🇦🇺 Australia

• Lifeline — 13 11 14 | lifeline.org.au (24/7 crisis support, call or chat)

• Beyond Blue — 1300 22 4636 | beyondblue.org.au (anxiety, depression, mental health)

• Suicide Call Back Service — 1300 659 467 | suicidecallbackservice.org.au (24/7 counselling)

• 13YARN — 13 92 76 (24/7 crisis support for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples)

• Kids Helpline — 1800 55 1800 | kidshelpline.com.au (for young people aged 5–25)

🇺🇸 United States

• 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline — call or text 988 | 988lifeline.org (24/7, free and confidential)

• Crisis Text Line — text HOME to 741741

🌐 International

• findahelpline.com — find crisis support in your country

💛 HOW TO SUPPORT SOMEONE YOU'RE WORRIED ABOUT

One of the most important things Renee shares in this episode is that the signs are often there — and that simply showing up, listening, and meaning what you say can make a profound difference.

If you are worried about someone in your life:

• Ask directly. Research shows that asking someone if they are thinking about suicide does not plant the idea — it opens a door.

• Listen without judgment. You don't need to fix it. Just being present matters.

• Mean what you offer. If you say I'm here for you, follow through.

• Help them access support. Offer to sit with them while they call a helpline, or to help them book a GP or counselling appointment.

• Take care of yourself, too. Supporting someone through a crisis is emotionally demanding. You deserve support as well.

A NOTE FROM MELANIE

This is one of the most important conversations I have hosted on The Motivate Collective. Renee's lived experience — her courage, her honesty, and her ongoing commitment to turning pain into purpose — is a reminder that healing is possible, even after the unthinkable.

If this episode moved you, please share it. You never know whose life a conversation like this might quietly save.

With love and intention, The Motivate Collective & MSW x

Episode: Finding Purpose After the Unthinkable — Renee Borgelt on Grief, Healing, and Starting Over EPISODE SUMMARY

When Renee Borgelt lost her husband of 32 years to suicide on September 14th, 2023, she didn't just lose a partner — she lost the entire life she had known since she was sixteen years old. In this deeply moving episode, Renee shares the lived experience of discovering her husband's death, navigating the fog of grief without financial access to therapy, and rebuilding herself through meditation, journaling, and an unexpected spiritual connection that would ultimately reveal her life's purpose.

What emerged from unimaginable loss is a story of radical resilience, community building, and the courage to show up — imperfectly, exhausted, hair in a bun — and help others do the same.

GUEST BIO

Renee Borgelt is a grief guide, online community builder, and author-in-progress based in Iowa, USA. After losing her husband to suicide following his recovery from two strokes, Renee turned her lived experience of grief into a mission to help others feel less alone. She goes live on TikTok four nights a week, has built a following of nearly 18,000 people across five platforms, and is co-founding a suicide prevention and outreach foundation called The Door's Always Openwith her children. She is currently writing two books: a compilation of spiritual messages she has received through meditation, and a memoir titled My Journey Back to Myself.

WHAT WE COVER IN THIS EPISODE

[00:00] — Introduction: The morning that changed everything [02:15] — What the weeks leading up to her husband's death looked like — and the signs she wishes she had understood sooner [05:14] — The identity crisis of losing the thing that gives you meaning (a theme all listeners can reflect on) [07:32] — How Renee found a reason to stay — and the one sentence her daughter said that changed everything [09:00] — "What heals you will heal others": the message that revealed her purpose [11:47] — How lived experience of loss can become a calling to guide others [14:29] — What her online community actually needs from her each day [17:21] — The discipline of grief: "have your moment, then get up anyway" [19:13] — Starting every morning with the question: Who can I help today?[22:03] — How to support someone who may be struggling — what to look for, and what to say [25:01] — The role of spiritual connection and divine guidance in Renee's healing [28:15] — Letting go of perfectionism and just getting your voice out there [33:43] — Why Renee would go live after working 20–28 days straight across two jobs — and why it was worth it [36:05] — Returning to Iowa: full-circle healing, facing PTSD, and the peace that followed [40:00] — Final words of wisdom: presence, gratitude, and the ripple effect of small acts of kindness

KEY INSIGHTS FROM THIS EPISODE

On grief and survival Renee's lived experience of losing a spouse to suicide challenges the assumption that grief follows a predictable path. Her process was minute-by-minute, then hour-by-hour — not a tidy journey through stages, but a raw daily commitment to keep breathing.

On identity and purpose after loss When her husband's ability to drive truck was compromised by strokes, it stripped him of the identity that gave him meaning. Renee draws a powerful parallel for all listeners: when we lose the thing we do well and love, the impact goes far deeper than skill. It touches our sense of worth.

On healing avoidance "You can shove it under the rug, but eventually you're going to trip over it." Renee's lived experience of returning to Iowa and walking back through the day of her husband's death — deliberately, intentionally — was the final piece of her healing. Avoidance delays, it doesn't protect.

On showing up imperfectly Renee went live on TikTok four nights a week while working two jobs, sometimes 20–28 days straight. Her lived experience of building community in exhaustion taught her that authenticity always outperforms polish. People don't want a script. They want you to be real.

On perspective as a healing tool The shift from this is happening to me to this is happening for me was pivotal. Renee's lived experience of sitting with that reframe — especially in the early months of grief — didn't minimise the pain. It redirected it toward meaning.

STANDOUT QUOTES

"What heals you will heal others."

"I could have laid in my bed for a year and a half. But where would that have gotten me?"

"Your feelings are valid — even when they don't make sense to the outside world."

"You have to feel it to heal it."

"If you're still here and you're kicking and you're breathing, you have a purpose in this life."

"Just get your voice out there. That's more important than anything perfect you could put out."

"A smile from somebody in line at the grocery store meant a lot to me. You never know what somebody is going through."

RESOURCES AND LINKS MENTIONED

🌐 Follow Renee on TikTok, Facebook, and Instagram to join her live grief support community (search Renee Borgelt)

📖 My Journey Back to Myself — Renee's upcoming memoir (watch her platforms for release updates)

📖 Untitled daily messages book — a compilation of positive, uplifting spiritual messages to inspire daily reflection

🏛️ The Door's Always Open — Renee's upcoming suicide prevention and community outreach foundation, with a focus on youth

IF YOU OR SOMEONE YOU KNOW IS STRUGGLING

This episode covers suicide, grief, and mental health. If anything resonated and you need support:

🇦🇺 Australia: Lifeline — 13 11 14 | lifeline.org.au 🇺🇸 USA: 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline — call or text 988 🌐 International:findahelpline.com

You are not alone. Somebody will miss you.

CONNECT WITH THE MOTIVATE COLLECTIVE

🎙️ Listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts 🌿 Join The Motivate Collective community for more conversations, events, and resources built around growth, wellness, and conscious living: www.motivatecollective.com

TAGS / CATEGORIES

Grief | Mental Health | Suicide Prevention | Resilience | Purpose | Personal Development | Healing | Spirituality | Mindset | Wellness | Storytelling | Community

Produced by The Motivate Collective | Host: Melanie Suzanne Wilson

Transcript

Renee Show Notes

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)

Renee, welcome to the show.

Renee Borgelt (00:03)

Thank you for having me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:04)

You have quite a story to share. Let's dive right in and share what happened.

Renee Borgelt (00:11)

Okay, basically, let me start with, have you ever had that voice inside of you that says something's not right, right, or don't go that way, or you shouldn't do that? Have you ever had that voice, and you didn't listen? That was, yeah, that was me on the morning of September 14th of 2023. I had been at my brother's down the street from where we had been staying in our camper at my mom's, and I had been doing some painting, and that little voice was screaming at me. And that was the second time in my life that I didn't listen. And I had walked over to fill my paint roller, because like I said, I was doing some painting for my brother, and I could see my husband outside the window because we had been staying in our camper. My husband had had two strokes the year prior.

And so, my husband was a truck driver and he was, we were living in our camper at my mom's. So my husband could drive truck again from my husband after he recovered from all of his strokes. And so I had looked out the window and I seen him take the dog leash off of the camper, the outside dog leash. And I didn't think anything of it at that second. And then I went back to painting, and within minutes, my alarm bells were just screaming at me. And they're like, something's not right. You need to walk back. And so I put down the roller, and I proceeded to walk back towards our camper, where we were staying. And I was trying to call my husband's phone as I walked, and I wasn't getting any answer, which was really strange. And as I got closer, to the camper, had discovered that my husband had taken his life.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:10)

Is that he had taken his life. That was after he noticed the dog leash was missing.

Renee Borgelt (02:15)

Mm-hmm.

Yep. Yep. Yeah. I seen him take the dog leash off. And like I said, the alarm bells in my head were screaming at me, and I knew something wasn't right. And so when I walked over there, yeah, he had proceeded to take his life, which in that moment, you know, we had been together for 32 years. So 32 years just gone, crumbled, you know, my worst nightmare had happened.

And.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:50)

It really is. It is.

Renee Borgelt (02:52)

It was, yeah, my worst nightmare. I, you know, I, and so I proceeded to try to give him CPR and tell the paramedics to come and, yeah. And then the rest of the day was just kind of a blur. And, for the next two weeks, it was, it was even hard to breathe. Cause in that 32 years we'd been together, we'd never been apart more than two weeks. And.

I didn't know what to do. know, everybody kept telling me, Renee, just keep putting one foot in front of the other. And, I could barely breathe. So it was literally minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day. I was just getting by, you know, so.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:38)

What happened leading up to this? Was he depressed?

Renee Borgelt (03:44)

Well, like I said, he had had two strokes. He had gotten sick at the end of 21 with pneumonia and went into the hospital. And, while in the hospital, he had had two strokes. And so, that let, cause he actually got better pretty quickly, but then the strokes happened. And so he was in the hospital for 88 days. And by the time he got out, he had no muscle mass left. had.

He basically had to learn how to do life all over again. And so we went through six months of physical therapy to get his life back, and he did really well. And he went back to driving a truck, but he didn't have his upper mobility back. So we couldn't get up on a truck and tarp it yet. And so my brother owned a trucking company. And so that's when my brother said, Hey, you know, why don't you come, come home and bring the camper, and I can put him to work and he doesn't have to get up on a truck and it putting back behind the steering wheel again, which is what he loved to do. Right. That's all he ever wanted to do is drive a truck. And, I had noticed the weeks prior, something was really weighing on him. And I know that he was really struggling, I think with directions, right? And thinking, you know, Hey, I'm not sure how much longer I'm going to be able to do this. Right. And, you know, which meant, okay, now what am I going to do and how am I going to take care of, you know, my family? Right. And so.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:14)

So it's really direction driving.

Renee Borgelt (05:16)

Yes, yeah, he was really getting mixed up. Yeah, so yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:23)

That's a theme that a lot of people can relate to because a lot of people, whether they get older or something happens to them, they certainly can't do the thing that they knew how to do and identified with. And that's, think, something we all need to reflect on for a moment. I want to really allow space for the listeners to absorb that.

Renee Borgelt (05:40)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:52)

We need to really allow space for people when they are struggling to do the thing that they enjoyed, they did well, and that brought them meaning. What do you think it was for him that brought him so much joy driving? Was it going to all these different locations? Was it feeling helpful? Was it something else?

Renee Borgelt (06:16)

I'm not quite sure. Just like I said, that's all he ever wanted to do, you know, is just to drive. He enjoyed driving. He wasn't a long-haul driver. He usually drove locally. He hauled a lot out of like saw mills and stuff. But he just loved it, right? That was his thing. And he had had an episode a couple of days prior to this happening, where I believe he had another stroke.

And that led to, you know, he had, I think, just given up at that point. Um, so yeah, I mean, there, there were signs, definitely there were signs there, obviously, you know, you know, hindsight's 2020, right? You know, we wish we could go back and, you know, when we, when we see those signs that, but, you know, you just, you never think, you know, and anybody that knew my husband knew that he wasn't, you know, that just wasn't his character, right? Like he was the happy-go-lucky guy that everybody loved and wanted to be around, you know, and so it wasn't in his character. So that's not something you just would have thought that he would do, you know? So, but, sorry, go, no, go ahead.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:32)

How did you find peace with the new reality after he left?

Renee Borgelt (07:45)

It took a little bit. So like I was saying to you earlier, I wasn't sure, honestly, I wasn't sure I was going to stay, right? Like I, I didn't know how to live without him. We had been together since I was 16 years old, and I never knew an adult life without him. And, I was seriously, you know, not in a good place. And my daughter, my youngest daughter, said to me, she said, " You know, Mom, your life is worth living, right? And that was, that was the first time since he had passed. That was probably about a month in that I was like a light bulb moment, right? Like, wow. Cause I had basically lived my life for my kids and my husband, you know? And so, I was like, okay, I'm, know, I've got to figure out how to heal myself. My husband didn't leave me in a great spot financially. So therapy was out. And I'm the unique girl, know, the circle that don't fit in the square. So I was like, I don't think group therapy is going to work for me either. And so I'm like, I have to figure this out. And so I just started to deep dive into meditation and journaling. And I would go sit in nature, and I would journal, and I would cry. And what I was discovering is, is the more I went into meditation, then I, that's when I started making a connection with my spirit guides and they were giving me messages. And the first message they ever give me is what heals you will heal others. And somehow instinctively, I just knew that was going to be, lead me to my purpose. Why I had to go through everything that I went through and.

That just ended up taking me on a whole other journey that I never, ever expected. Ever.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:39)

What heals you heals others.

That's crucial. And I can share with you that I've explored so many types of forms of looking after ourselves on this show, but it's very occasionally that someone has explored grief in this way. So I wanted to really hold that. And I wanted to start now asking, what do you want anyone to know if they think they might end up in a situation like yours, what do you want people to know first?

Renee Borgelt (10:17)

Basically, what I've learned through my journey has been about two and a half years. And what my biggest takeaway from all of this is, is that the things that we go through in life aren't happening to us. They're happening for us. And that was a pivotal moment for me when my guides were like, Renee, you're not, this isn't happening to you. You know, you had to go through all of this and, it.

And it led back to the day that I really, besides that message, then about a couple of weeks had went by and I had went into meditation, and I didn't get any messages that day, which was a little unusual. But as I came out of meditation, my husband had sent me a song. Cause my guides, that's what they had been doing. They'd been sending me messages and songs, and I could tell that it was from him, and he sent me that song, If You Could Turn Back Time And I could hear it playing on loop in my head. And it was like this light bulb went off in my mind, and I just sat, and I sobbed because it was like, no, we couldn't turn back time. And even if we could, I couldn't because this was what I had to go through in life, so that I could help other people. And that was the moment that I knew for sure, then this was my purpose in life to go through what I went through to help others.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:47)

Do you perceive that other losses that people are going through can lead them to a role or a purpose of guiding other people after any sort of loss?

Renee Borgelt (12:02)

Absolutely, absolutely, right? Like, you know, I've now been online and, you know, I'm on TikTok live four nights a week, and I'm on there, and I'm helping people through loss. And, you know, that's my goal, you know, is to just help people and to make people realise that, like I said, everything in life is about your perspective and how you look at it, right? And you can look at it that you know, everything that you're going through is, poor me, it's happening to me. Or you can go, no, you know, it happened for me. And what lesson can I learn from this? And how can I use it to be a better person or to help somebody else? Right?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:48)

Absolutely. Did you find any sense of community in any form after all of this?

Renee Borgelt (12:56)

Oh yes, I have a huge community actually online. I'm on like what, five platforms. So I have a huge community right now. I think I'm up to almost 18,000 followers at this point. hopefully I'll just keep climbing, right? Cause the more people, the more followers, the more I get my word out there that, one, you're not alone. That's the biggest thing, I want people to know that they're not alone. And

If I can get through it, anybody can get through it. You know, like I said, 32 years of my life just crumbled in the blink of an eye. And my, my ultimate goal is, is one for somebody to never, ever hopefully have to go through what I went through, you know, if I can prevent that. And then second, you know, is just being able to, there's so many people that are stuck.

You know what I mean? Like they lose somebody like I did. I, you know, I didn't know where I was going or, you know, and, know, my goal is to be able to help people not only through loss and to heal that loss, but to take it full circle and healing as far as, know, like somebody like me, okay, I don't, didn't have a life to go back to, right? That door closed that day he made that choice. And so to be able to help people go, okay, I healed, but what's the next step?

Right? You know, what is your passion? What is your goal? Where are you going to go from here? And so that's kind of my goal at this point.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:29)

Your purpose is such a part of your next step that is crucial because especially you were so focused on your family and now you have space to support other people beyond family. And I'm curious, what have you found that your community normally needs on a normal day?

Renee Borgelt (14:55)

Like I said, mostly number one is just for people to know they're not alone. I get online and to know that what they're feeling is okay sometimes. When you go through a loss and a lot of these feelings come up, and I was talking to a lady the other day about, I think she had lost her son. He had taken his life.

And she said, you know, she was angry with him, but at the same time, she was upset with herself for being angry with him. You know, and that's one of the things that I teach, you know, when I'm, when I'm online is that, you know, even if it doesn't make sense to the outside world, your feelings are still valid, right? You know, I was angry with my husband for a long time. I worked through, you know, the loss and the guilt pretty quickly, but the anger, the anger stuck around, you know, until last summer, it was last fall before I finally was able to, to journal to him and to say, you know, I forgive you, I forgive you for leaving me. And, you know, here's the thing: I know that he wasn't in a good place. You know, you know, that logically, right? That's the logical mind, right? Saying that, you know, I know where you were, but the heart says something different, right? Just like that, mother, her heart is longing for her son, and she's angry that she no longer can hug him. But the logic in us says, well, that's wrong, but it's not. And so that's what I do. I get on and I tell people, it's okay, you're not alone. And it's okay to feel what you feel. Your feelings are valid. But my biggest thing is, is, you my grandma always told me, she said, you know, there's two types of people, there's those that, those that make excuses, and there's those that find a way, you know, and I could have laid in my bed for a year and a half and said, you know, feel sorry for me, and I lost my husband and my whole world. And, but instead, you know, where would that have gotten me, right? You know, it's just easier to get up, you know, and I tell people all the time, it's okay to have a moment.

Maybe you have 10 moments through the day, you know, but it's about not unpacking and living there, getting up and, okay, what am I gonna learn from this, changing your perspective and keep moving forward.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:21)

You keep moving forward. So part of what anyone can do is have a moment and then get up.

Renee Borgelt (17:29)

Yep.

I know that sounds harsh, but that was my grandma's thing, you know?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:30)

Sometimes... No!

It reminds me of that old phrase, pick up your measured walk.

Renee Borgelt (17:37)

That's when my grandma always used to say, " Have your pretty party, girly. Now pick up your pull-up your big girl pants, and let's go."

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:44)

Yes, pull up your big girl pants. Do you find there's a discipline in that? In just saying, okay, you can feel the feelings now, get up anyway.

Renee Borgelt (17:47)

Right.

Yes, yes. Yep. Cause you have a purpose here. Everybody has a purpose here. You know, maybe mine is to touch thousands of people, but maybe somebody else's is just to touch one purpose, but that doesn't make their purpose any less than mine. Right. And so, you know, if you're still here and you're kicking and you're breathing, you have a purpose in this life. So, you know, have your moments, but keep going, keep going. Cause your life is important. And that's the other thing is reminding people that their life is important too.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:23)

Just keep going. Do you find that structure helps in the day when you are keeping this discipline within your purpose?

Renee Borgelt (18:32)

Yes. Yes. For sure.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:35)

How do you make that happen and stick with it?

Renee Borgelt (18:40)

I just ever since then, I'm a big meditation girl. So, you know, I get up, I do my meditation. Part of that for me is like I said, you know, I talked to my guides, and so Daily, I'm putting out messages that I get from my guides. So that's that, you know, the first thing I do I get up, I do my meditation You know, and I focus on like I said, okay What do I got to do to you know to be a better me today, you know, than I was yesterday and who can I help today? So that keeps me going every day.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:13)

That question at the start of the day, you ask, " Who can I help today?

Renee Borgelt (19:19)

Yep. Yep.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:21)

That is significant because we live in a culture and a world where people are normally just wondering what can they get for themselves in a day. So it sounds like part of why it elevates your purpose is to return to a service mindset.

Renee Borgelt (19:40)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. If you always go back to my thing is gratitude, you know, on the days where I am struggling, I go back to gratitude. I write in my gratitude journal. And then that always, you know, refocuses me back to, let's do this. Who can we help?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:58)

But let's do this. It's amazing. And do you get any community aside from your followers online? Anything local?

Renee Borgelt (20:01)

Thank you.

I haven't really, my kids and I are starting a foundation for my husband. We haven't quite got that off the ground yet, but that's in the works. We got our mission statement, and our board figured it out. We just got to get all of the, you know, the ins and outs of the legal stuff figured out. But yeah, we're in the works for that, so.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:28)

That's amazing. Tell me more about that.

Renee Borgelt (20:31)

Basically, we just, it's going to be called the doors always open, and it's going to be a suicide foundation, outreach for the community. One of our big goals is to start young, right? We have so many youth that are, that are checking out on us, you know, because they just, they feel alone, right? They don't feel like they don't have anybody. And so one of our goals is to, to get into the schools, you know, and to start young and say, look, you know,

You change somebody's story. And that's what I think people don't realise is, you know, when you're in that bad place, you don't realise you think that you're taking away your pain, but you don't realise that you're changing somebody's story. Like my husband, he didn't just change my story. He changed my kids' story, my grandkids' story, you know, his friends' story, you know, and to be able to get, you know, if we can get into the schools and start young and, and, and say, look, you're not alone, you know, and maybe you feel alone now, but, you know, you won't always feel alone, and you won't always be in this place. You know, there is hope.

But just being there for communities and being a safe place for people to go if they are struggling. And so they know that they're not alone. So that's our goal.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:48)

What things do people need to keep in mind when they are supporting someone who is heading in that direction? I know that they need to be very mindful of how they approach it. What do people need to know?

Renee Borgelt (22:03)

Well, just being aware, that's the biggest thing. In my husband's case, in a little bit, I was aware, but at the same time, I guess I didn't realise how bad he was struggling, right? And a lot of times you hear people say, they put on a smile, but there are little signs that they like to leave. And so just be aware of those signs. And if you see them, be supportive, but here's the thing, too is, ou know, maybe they need some help, get them some help. You know, that's the big thing, to lead them in the right direction and always just so they know they're not alone, you know, and that they are worthy and their life is worth, you know, worth living. And, you know, as I said, they would change somebody's story, and they would be missed. You know, I get online every day, and I tell people you would be missed, you know, somebody will miss you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:00)

Someone will. Yes. So the books. We want to be mindful of how some listeners could be more or less spiritual, but it's a good time to ask, what do you talk about in the books?

Renee Borgelt (23:05)

Yes.

Okay, so my first book is just gonna be a compilation of the last two and a half years of the messages that I got from my guides. And they're just positive, uplifting messages. That's the first one. And then the other book is going to be, it's called My Journey Back to Myself. And it just, it talks about my story and where it's kinda led me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:40)

Going through the story. That's really crucial. The positive messages in the first book are those little bite-sized things? How do you think someone will, how do you know that someone might benefit the most from consuming that? Will it be an affirmation at the start of the day that they read into the next one, or is it something else?

Renee Borgelt (24:02)

It could be something like that, right? Because they're all different, right? So one day it's just, it's like a life lesson for you. And then the next day, it's just a little bit of inspiration. So maybe it's something where they can just go through, like you said, every day and pick something out that just resonates with them, right? That's the message that they need to hear. Because that's what I believe. I believe everything in life happens for a reason, right?

And so, if you're opening this book, the right message is going to pop out at you at the right time when you need it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:36)

You'll see what you need to see. We've all had that moment when a song plays nearby, or we see a chunk of a book at the right time. So people see what they need to see.

Renee Borgelt (24:38)

Yep.

Yep, exactly. And I believe the divine, whatever it is you believe, like I said, puts that right in your view, right when you need it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:01)

Absolutely, absolutely. Was that connection with some sort of divine crucial for your healing?

Renee Borgelt (25:10)

Absolutely, absolutely, every day. And they're the ones that guide me. I live my life now. When it first started, they are like, you need to put these messages out to the world. And I was like, OK. And so I was just, at the time, just kind of fooling around with Facebook Live. And I put it out there. And then my guides are like, no, no, no. You need to be doing reels every day.

I'm very technologically challenged. So I was like, I don't even know how to do a reel. And so that first Christmas, I went to Christmas with my kids, and I said to my granddaughter, she was a preteen at the time. And I said, " Can you help Grandma figure out how to do a reel? Cause I don't know what I'm doing. And so she's, she showed me how to do a reel. And of course, my guides were still, you know, they were nudging me. They were like, Renee, you need to be getting your story out there.

And I was like, yeah, yeah, I don't know if I want to do this, right? You know, I was leery. So come January then, because they're very persistent. If you know anything about spirit, they're persistent. So come January, I started putting reels out on Facebook and Instagram. And then February came around, and they're like, now you need to be on TikTok. And I'm like, I don't know how to be on TikTok. And so my daughter had a baby in March.

And so I dragged my feet till March, and then all my grandkids were at my house in March when my daughter had her baby. So I said, Hey, how about you guys help grandma start a TikTok? And they were thrilled, right? They had like six grandkids in my living room, all excited, you know? And so they helped me get on TikTok. And then that July, that's when my guide's like, okay, now you're ready. Now you need to be going live on TikTok. And I started going live four nights a week, and I've been doing four nights a week for two years.

And it's been the biggest, not only a blessing for me, right? Because it's funny, I always tell my followers, I'm the guinea pig here, right? My story is out there. Everybody knows my life. It's an open book. But when I get on Lives and whatever it is I'm talking about that night, because a lot of times I have a topic that my guide will give me and whatever I'm talking about is usually either something that I've been through that she's walked me through, or she's like, okay, you're not getting it. So you're going to tell everybody else how to get it. So you get it, too, right? So I'm the resident guinea pig. That's what I always say, you know, because I'm learning right along with everybody else, you know, at times, you know, so it's beneficial for me and them.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:45)

This is telling me so much about how to talk to a community. Everybody can learn about how to share more about their experiences. You are guiding your followers through your learning journey, and it's not about having reached your destination.

Renee Borgelt (28:06)

No, that's one of probably the biggest lessons too, I've learned is it's not about the destination. It's about the journey getting there. Yep.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:15)

Absolutely. And I'm sensing a lot of freedom from perfectionism in all of this, and not worrying about being an expert in vertical videos instantly, not worrying about having all of the answers, letting yourself be the guinea pig. Was that crucial? Freeing yourself from perfectionism.

Renee Borgelt (28:35)

Yes, and that was one of my lessons. That was a lesson to me, actually, because I'm very much an A personality, right? I like to have things, and I like to be prepared. And my guides like to keep me on my toes. The day of, I'll be like, hey, I still don't know. Because I rely on them. They tell me what I'm going to talk about. And then depending on when I get online, if I talk about that, if somebody's got a loss and that takes precedent, we talk about that.

You know, they'll lead me right up to 10 minutes before I'm going to go live and be like, okay, you know, and then they give me a topic. But yes, that's been very crucial for me, especially putting out my videos every day, because you know how you are, you know, it's like, I'll start it, and then I'll say something wrong. And it's like, okay, take one, you know, and there's been times I've been up to 12 takes. So it's like, and my guides are like, Renee, no, this isn't the point, you're missing the point, right? The point is getting the message out and being real with it.

You know, and there are days where it's like, I'll read what the message they give me, and it's not completely perfect. And I've learned now it's okay. Just hit next and post it because that's what makes me relatable to people is, you know, I'm just Renee. I'm just Renee, like I said, trying to do better than the person I was yesterday and trying to help somebody. And yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:57)

Don't do loads of takes and try to make it perfect. Just get anything out there.

Renee Borgelt (30:03)

Yep, just get it out there. Get your voice out there. That's more important than anything perfect you could put out there.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:09)

Say anything. I completely agree, and I saw a freedom from perfectionism to some extent when I used to talk to groups a lot in person, and I knew it would go how it goes. But what you are saying is very crucial because, actually I was collaborating with someone who wanted every word to be precisely perfect, and the words will flow, and the audience will connect when you just let go. Do you think?

Renee Borgelt (30:51)

Yep.

Absolutely. Yep. Yep. Yeah. There's, for instance, last week I was doing, I did my live, and we had decided I was going to invite my girlfriend on, and we were just going to have some real talk between the two of us. And I just hit the live button, and we lost power. We were in the middle of a blizzard and I couldn't see my notes that my guides give me. So it was like, you know what? We're just going to go with this, right?

And, that's the thing is people don't, people don't want a script. They want you to be real, you know, they relate to you because you are real, and you know, they can relate to your story or something that you went through because you're a real person, right? There's nights I get on, you know, and I have my hair in a bun, you know, I'm not always perfect because after my husband passed, I had to work two jobs, you know, and I'm exhausted, and I'm getting on a live an hour a night after that, you know, and

My hair is always dirty; I don't care. But you know, I told my guides, I'm like, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to be the authentic me. Right. And so sometimes, you know, you just get what you get, but at the same time, I'm still here. I'm still doing it. I'm still showing up. You know, that's the point, show up anyway.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:09)

You are showing up online, and you have two jobs. This is significant because, honestly, I'll share with you that I nearly got to the point of thinking I'm exhausted. There is so much going on. How much do I really want to be doing? And then I end up in a conversation like this one, and it reminds me, okay. This is why I keep doing something, doing this, but what you are showing is you had two jobs, you were exhausted, you were probably still in a phase of your grief as well. You had duties and emotions, and there's a serious physical depletion going on, and you still show up.

Renee Borgelt (32:49)

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Yep. Exactly. 'Cause that's what you do, you know? And there was days, like I said, not only did I have two jobs, I was working 20 to 28 days straight, both jobs. And I would get online anyway, you know, I'd come home completely exhausted. And my guy's like, have a rest cause you're going to get on, you know, and you just do. And the thing is, I might've been exhausted when I started.

But it was so invigorating by the time I get off. If I touch that one person, because that's my goal, right? Every night, if I can just touch one person or plant a seed with one person, that their life is important or that they're not alone, right? Then it's worth it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:43)

Absolutely. That's why everybody should be doing something like this. To the listeners out there, I actually want to show more people how easy it is to show up in the form that feels right. I like the longer conversations like this. I love talking to people like you. And the podcast, though, although it takes a few tools, it's so easy to put a podcast out.

I took so long. I mean, it's easier now.

Renee Borgelt (34:15)

Well, look at me. I didn't even know how to do a TikTok, you know, but you just you figure it out as you go, you know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:15)

No, I think so. Have you been in other podcast episodes aside from this one?

Renee Borgelt (34:27)

I have a good friend who talks about serious things like suicide. So we kind of touched on that once with her about a year and a half ago. But otherwise, you're my first.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:38)

That's awesome. I'm so glad for that. And you can go on so many others. I don't know if you found me on threads, but I get so many people on threads and you know, there are podcasts out there, but the reason why everybody should share their stories and, create space for storytelling is because everybody has an experience.

That's an example that we can learn from. And what you said today goes so much deeper and is so much more tangible than just reading a textbook.

Renee Borgelt (35:10)

Yes.

Right. And I love how you said that everybody has an experience because you know, maybe something that I say doesn't resonate, but something you says to somebody will, right? Because of how somebody else says it, or they resonate with their personality. So just because I'm doing it doesn't mean that somebody else shouldn't be doing it too. Right. Because I'm going to have people resonate with me, and they'll have people that resonate with them. So share your voice anyway. Right.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (35:49)

And you never know who you will reach. Where exactly are you, somewhere in America, I trust.

Renee Borgelt (35:56)

Right now I'm in Iowa. I'm sitting in Iowa at the moment. It's not my favourite place, but you know, I'm starting over. I'm learning how to put my life back together.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:05)

I know the feeling a lot, and I feel so inspired by you, even though you are where you are, you trust that you can start over and see where that leads. Are you trusting in the unknown a bit and saying it could end up wherever it ends up?

Renee Borgelt (36:23)

I just know, and I guess I hadn't told you that part. I've had visions of my future, so I kind of have an idea where I'm going. You know, they don't tell me everything, but I have an idea where I'm going. But yes, I've just learned, I learned to stop having that tug, right? That tug of war with the divine God, universe, whatever it is that you believe, right? I stopped having that tug of war because, you know, like I said, I dragged my feet and I dragged my feet, and then they're like, and then I ended up doing it anyway, you know? And I wouldn't even be here where I'm at with my followers, and you know, I don't even think of them as followers. A lot of them are my family, right? Like I talk to them on a daily basis, and we message, and you know, but I wouldn't have that had I not listened, right? Had I not just went with the flow. And so that's kind of where I'm at, you know? I honestly, I just wait for that next step.

And I just actually, the reason why I came back to, I'm in Iowa, is because this is where my husband passed, and I had one piece of my healing journey that was left. And I was struggling really bad with PTSD and flashbacks of that day. And my guide said, "You have to go back and do full-circle healing." And so I came back and I literally walked back through that day and, like I tell everybody you have to feel it to heal it and that's not sadly That's why a lot of people don't heal is because they don't want to feel that again, you know But you do you have to like I say all the time you have to walk through that storm and You know, you don't get the rainbow without the storm usually or the rain, right? And so I came back, and I walked through that healing, and my flashbacks are better

They actually, my guides actually replaced the flashback with another vision for me of him. And I had a complete piece come over me that I've never had in my entire life. And it was the moment I've never had. And ⁓ now I'm, you know, I'm like, okay, I'm ready to open that next door. I'm ready to start that next chapter, finally. So that's why I'm here.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:40)

I asked earlier about making peace with the new reality, and it sounds like part of how you did that was going back to where everything happened and not avoiding it.

Renee Borgelt (38:58)

Yes, that's extremely important. I talk about that a lot, you know, when you're avoiding it, you're shoving it under a rug, basically, so to speak. And I tell people, you know, you can shove it under the rug for so long, but eventually you're going to trip over that rug. You know, and that was in a way I was avoiding that part of it because, you know, I wasn't sure how I was going to heal that part, right? Like, how do you replace what you've seen?

You know, and I came back and like I said, I walked through that. That was a crucial part of my healing. And it was crazy because two days after I walked through that, I was sitting here and I said, OK, you brought me back to do this. And I did it. So what's the next step? And then, you know, that next step is just appearing. And like I said, I just have faith, and I go with what they tell me. And I.

I just wait for the next step. I don't look towards what, I know what the future is gonna hold a little bit, like I said, and I know what I want it to hold, but I also know that it's not my plan. And I just take it day by day. And one of the other lessons I learned is just being present, right? Being grateful and present in the moment each day. Yesterday's gone, we can't redo it, and tomorrow's not here yet. So just be present and be grateful and find your joy today. And whatever tomorrow brings, tomorrow brings.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:31)

Tomorrow will be what it will be. What are any final words of wisdom that anyone who is listening needs to keep in mind? And before you answer that question, do want to add the disclaimer. I think, okay, I will definitely add a few things in the notes because this is a deep topic, and AI will help me to put the right things in about where people can go if they need help. In Australia, people normally say call Lifeline. So in that sense, is there anything that where you are, people should do if they think they need help?

Renee Borgelt (41:15)

Just reach out to somebody. That's my thing, right? Just anybody, anybody, if you know if you're struggling, find somebody there, somebody will listen, right? You know I have I have a guy on my TikTok here, a couple of months ago, that he had lost his wife, and he was struggling, and I spent the whole hour just talking to him and telling him that you know, his life was important, and you know, and one of the other big takeaways is, you know, mean what you say, right? So if you tell somebody, you know, I had a lot of people tell me when my husband passed, you know, hey, if you need somebody, reach out. And I actually did that. And that's hard for me because I'm not one of those people that, you know, like to ask for help. And I did reach out to two people, you know, and they kind of were like, like, what are you reaching out to me for? You know, and so

Mean what you say. know, if you tell somebody, hey, I'm here for you, mean it. Right. That's really important.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:18)

I agree. I agree. And there's a potential for a balance in this. I know that people feel overwhelmed. People have a lot happening in life, but we need to be there if someone needs to turn to someone in the moment, if it reaches that point, and it's crucial.

Renee Borgelt (42:41)

It is crucial.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:43)

It is, it is. So sure, be overwhelmed. Sure. But show up for people anyway, because it could be necessary.

Renee Borgelt (42:55)

Well, and here's the thing, you don't have to, you I'm not saying you have to get on TikTok like me every night. You know what I mean? Showing up can be opening the door for somebody, you know, giving somebody a smile. And those first couple of weeks when I lost my husband, you know, I could have fallen apart at the drop of a hat, you know, standing in line at the grocery store, and just a smile from somebody meant a lot to me at that time, right? Saying hello to the cashier or giving somebody a compliment. Somebody could be having the worst day of their life, and you don't know it, and you say, " Your hair looks really pretty today. That could be their lifeline. You never know what somebody's going through. Just a small act of kindness goes a long way.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:41)

It really does. Renee, thank you for sharing your truth.

Renee Borgelt (43:46)

Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:48)

It has been such a gift and a privilege to create space for such an honest, real story. I appreciate how you have put the time in, and you shared details about an experience that was not easy, and how you are finding your next chapter afterwards. And I wanted to congratulate you for that.

Renee Borgelt (44:15)

Thank you so much.

The Motivate Collective Podcast — Show Notes Episode: The Psychology of Eating — Breaking the Habits That Keep You Stuck

Guest: Dr Denise THINKS Host: Melanie Suzanne Wilson

Episode Summary

Dr Denise THINKS — a food psychology expert with a PhD in educational psychology — joins Melanie to unpack the hidden patterns, conditioning, and emotional loops driving our eating behaviours. From the neuroscience of autopilot eating to the role of Big Food in engineering addiction, this conversation is equal parts eye-opening and immediately actionable. Dr Denise shares how she reversed her own health challenges — fibroids, adult acne, deteriorating vision, and joint pain — through changing what she ate, and why awareness (not willpower) is always the first step.

Guest Bio

Dr Denise THINKS is a food psychology educator, researcher, and speaker based in the United States. Holding a PhD in educational psychology, she specialises in helping individuals break unconscious eating patterns and reconnect with food as a tool for health and vitality. She runs a 13-week step-by-step program and regularly speaks on stage and in community settings. Her work sits at the intersection of behavioural science, nutrition awareness, and personal transformation.

Key Topics Covered

The psychology of eating and mindless habits. What food psychology actually means — and how the food industry has spent decades pairing foods with activities (movies + popcorn, commutes + fast food) to create automatic behaviours we barely notice.

Breaking autopilot with tiny disruptions. Inspired by Dr Brian Wansink's research, Dr Denise explains why doing small things differently — getting out of bed on the opposite side, brushing teeth with your non-dominant hand, taking a new route to work — can rewire your brain's defaults and interrupt unhealthy food loops.

Sugar as addiction. Research suggests that sugar is more addictive than cocaine. Dr Denise explains how food scientists deliberately engineer products to hit the addiction threshold without tasting overtly sweet — and how corporate-funded studies have historically obscured this.

The screen time–eating connection. The average person spends four hours a day scrolling. Dr Denise connects digital overconsumption with distracted eating, discussing James Clear's Atomic Habits framework on environment design and why the couch faces the TV — always.

Food, fibroids, and reversing disease. Dr Denise shares her personal story: fibroids the size of tennis balls, adult acne, buckling knees at 29, worsening vision — all traced back to diet. After shifting to a plant-based lifestyle, she reports reversal of arthritis symptoms, clearing skin, and improved eyesight without glasses.

The emotional root of cravings: Why reaching for a doughnut is rarely about hunger. Dr Denise unpacks the emotional drivers behind cravings and why food can never permanently fill a psychological void.

Cooking at home and reclaiming flavour from oyster mushrooms as fried chicken substitutes to the tamari and maple syrup combo Melanie swears by, this episode gets practical about how to make whole, plant-based food genuinely delicious.

Belief, desire, and expectancy. Dr Denise closes with her framework for any goal — not just food. You need to believe you can reach it, desire it deeply enough to stay consistent, and expect that you deserve the outcome.

Timestamps

TimeTopic00:00Introduction — what is food psychology?00:54Mindless eating and conditioned food habits02:05How to break autopilot patterns at home05:32Free food, workplace habits, and saying no07:10Consuming content vs. taking action08:41Average screen time — four hours a day09:13Phone addiction by design10:11Sugar vs. caffeine vs. alcohol — which is most addictive?11:32Hidden sugar in savoury foods13:15Cooking demonstration — the oil absorption experiment16:16Dr. Denise's personal health journey and plant-based shift17:23Fibroids, weight gain, and the decision to go deeper20:17What is a fibroid?21:47The problem with "just cut it out" medicine23:45The flavour comes from the plants — mushroom and tofu cooking tips26:03When professionals say "just eat anything"29:35Who funds nutrition research?32:12Charity fundraising and the food culture contradiction35:03Working with children and community groups36:29What Dr. Denise teaches first on stage — awareness over swaps38:35Popcorn, movie theatres, and distracted eating (the Wansink study)40:16James Clear, Atomic Habits, and environment design41:45Tiny changes that make healthy habits hard to fail43:56Dr. Denise's path into food psychology51:55Tapping into internal joy rather than external stimulation55:33Three closing lessons: belief, desire, expectancy

Guest Mentions & Resources

• Dr Brian Wansink — Food lab at Cornell University; research on distracted eating and the five-day-old popcorn study

• James Clear — Atomic Habits; environment design and habit stacking

• Google Scholar — Recommended starting point for peer-reviewed, unsponsored nutrition research

• Dr Denise's 13-week step-by-step program — Available via Dr Denise's platform (link in bio)

Quotable Moments

"The food scientists know just exactly how much sugar to put in a product to make you addicted to it, but not make it sweet at the same time." — Dr Denise

"Your body keeps record. It's going to tell you straight up, black and white." — Dr Denise

"If you have to get something from outside of yourself to enjoy life, that's the wrong kind of mentality." — Dr Denise

"I want you to enjoy your life instead of just consuming enjoyable things." — Melanie

"I don't even bring up food for a while. There's so many other things outside of us that drives our behaviour toward food."— Dr Denise

Key Takeaways

1. Awareness is the foundation of change — not willpower, not a new diet plan.

2. Your environment is programming your habits. Redesign it intentionally.

3. Sugar functions like a drug in the body and is hidden in foods you'd never expect.

4. Emotional and psychological patterns drive cravings more than hunger does.

5. Small, almost-impossible-to-fail changes compound into lasting transformation.

6. Belief, desire, and expectancy are the internal architecture of every sustainable goal.

Connect with Dr Denise

[Insert Dr Denise's website, Instagram, and program links here]

Connect with The Motivate Collective

🎙️ Listen and subscribe: www.motivatecollective.com 🌿 Join the community for conversations, events, and resources built around growth, wellness, and conscious living: www.motivatecollective.com

#TheMotivateCollective #FoodPsychology #WellnessPodcast #ConsciousLiving #MindsetShift #PersonalDevelopment #HealthAndWellness #PlantBased #HabitChange #AtomicHabits #SugarAddiction #EatingPsychology #GrowthMindset #WomenWellness #ConsciousLeadership

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:00)

Dr Denise, welcome to the podcast.

Dr Denise THINKS (00:03)

Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:05)

It's such a privilege. You are a food psychologist. What does that involve?

Dr Denise THINKS (00:11)

All right, well, let me clarify something. I'm not a psychologist because that means license basically, but I do have my PhD in educational psychology and research, and I have a focus on the psychology of eating. And so basically what that means is I help people think outside of the box when it comes to their food and how we look at food, because we do a lot of mindless eating, right?

So I help kind of interrupt those patterns that no longer serve people.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:44)

patterns, right? What sorts of patterns are getting in our way with the gap between what we know we should be doing and what we are doing?

Dr Denise THINKS (00:54)

That's a great question. It's really interesting, with this work that I do. So I look, I like to look at things that are things that just the world has shown us what goes together. So when I think about, you know, watching TV or a movie, what goes with that snacking and eating popcorn, right? Just things that the industry, the food industry, has taught us to kind of marry together, and we just automatically just kind of go down that rabbit hole and be like, okay, that's normal. It may be normal, but it's not necessarily okay, but it can get us into trouble, right?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:33)

Right, so it sounds like the foods have been paired with other habits in our lives or other activities, and what do you do to normally overcome that? Do you recommend that people attribute or combine a different food or a different habit with these activities, like going to the movies?

Dr Denise THINKS (01:58)

Yeah, so I mean, just if anyone notices that they want to feel better, for one, obviously, it's typically linked to food and the different patterns that they are probably doing without even realising it. There's a great book by Dr Brian Wansink, I think, W-A-N-S-I-N-K. He has a food lab at Cornell University, and he just kind of basically breaks it down to where you want to think about doing things opposite, because we have gotten to a space where we do things on autopilot. We get out of bed the same way. We may go right to the bathroom, and then most people go to the kitchen to drink coffee. Well, as far as me and my studies, and I'm trying to break someone's pattern, I'm just saying, okay, do everything opposite. All right.

Get out of bed on the other side of the bed. Even if you have someone lying with you, just say, excuse me, I'm running an experiment. Let me just get out of autopilot for a second. Let me get my brain neurons just kind of firing for a little bit. If you go right to the bathroom, that's fine. Do what you got to do. We're not saying hold it and do something else. But if you're brushing your teeth, I say brush your teeth with your opposite or non-dominant hand.

And what that actually does, it actually kind of makes you pay attention because if you are brushing your teeth, for me, my non-dominant hand is my left hand. And if you kind of hit the curves a little bit wrong, it's going to hurt. So you got to pay attention. And that's the point of it. It's going to be uncomfortable. And that's going to make you actually pay attention to what you're doing instead of just the same old grass or groundhog day, like, okay, I'm brushing my teeth. I'm getting ready to do this next. So it's just all about interrupting any kind of normal routine that you normally do. Even if it's healthy for you. One more thing is like, you know, for a person that has a nine-to-five job and they go to work Monday through Friday, take a different route to work because you're seeing the same billboards every single time, and that's just more marketing and advertising. You're passing the same restaurants that you may go to after work because you need that little quick little snack, that little burger and fries or something like that before dinner time. So things of that nature just helps you get out of that typical routine is what I help do with the autopilot thinking.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:29)

It sounds like changing the rest of the routine will change the food habits. That is joining so many dots for me. And I'm sure anyone who's listening can think of examples in their own lives, right? Where some things become automatic. I found myself going for a roll of sushi every single time I went to the gym, and I had to ask myself, this is becoming so consistent, but years ago, the unhealthy habits, there are some places where someone would get something a bit more fast food style. And I was going into the city where every place had pastries, a lot of pastries. And I bet you some people would be grabbing a pastry on the way to every single workday. Do you see people getting into those unhealthy habits where especially on the go when they're in a rush, they just grab something and they're not thinking about the calories or the impact. They just do it because it's there.

Dr Denise THINKS (05:32)

Yeah, like you just said, because it's there, right? A lot of times, like how many times can we say no at work maybe and it's a, you know, a three o'clock meeting and they're passing out donuts and you're not even full or you're, you're full and you're satisfied and then, but it comes by you and you're like, well, it's free. So I have to have one. We do those things so often, and most people, like you said, don't realise it. So.

Yeah, it's all about just waking up and paying attention. And I know there's things out there like food diaries and journals and things of that nature. ⁓ But there are some other creative ways that I kind of like to bring about the awareness and whatnot.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:15)

Do you find that taking action is going to create more momentum than just writing about a change in a diary or a journal?

Dr Denise THINKS (06:26)

I mean, I would say still writing about it is still a good start. It's taken some kind of action toward the direction of where you want to go for sure. Because a lot of times we can get caught up into consuming information instead of doing. And that's one of the challenges that I find with a lot of people that may follow me on social media. And some people even think just watching my videos, they're doing something truly beneficial for their bodies. And I'm like, well.

In a way, yes, knowledge is great. However, you got to pair that with motion. know, anything people can do to go in that direction where they're actually doing the action of it, definitely a good start for sure. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:10)

Going to trust that approach could help us in all sorts of changes in our lives. Because a lot of people now, for example, are looking at videos about work, or videos about how to help ourselves with all sorts of things. And have you seen essentially a gap at times where people are consuming a lot of content about what they should be doing, and you know, they need to be taking more action?

Dr Denise THINKS (07:38)

Yeah, it's, mean, we all can kind of get caught up in scrolling, right? So I actually just kind of released a challenge to where I'm walking people step by step on how to get started and where to begin. And somewhere in the middle of it, you know, is around where people are saying to me, well, I just don't have the time. I've got...

Family drama, I've got kids, I've got work, I'm trying to start my business and then trying to eat healthy, da da da. And I'm like, okay, no problem. Let's pause for a second, open up your phone to this particular area, and let's just see how much you're spending on scrolling through social media. And what do you think the average amount of time is for the average person to scroll?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:24)

I could only guess the numbers because I haven't looked at mine in a while, and I don't know the average, but we can get accurate info because the phones do tell us the screen time. What did you find people are doing on their phones in a day? How much time?

Dr Denise THINKS (08:41)

Four hours.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:42)

Four hours on the phone.

Dr Denise THINKS (08:44)

Yes, four hours, yes, between all of the naps.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:48)

Is that between everything? And we should admit that some of this screen time could be things like this, recording a podcast, but we have to really check how much of it, and it's really easy to say, okay, was there an appointment and the rest of the time, what's going on on the phone? Is it just flicking through content? That's it's so much time in our lives. Do you think people really are addicted?

Dr Denise THINKS (09:13)

For sure. And it's created that way on purpose. Absolutely. Yeah, just like, you know, any other kind of drugs, smoking, which, actually, they say smoking is not an addiction. It's just a neuropath type something. can't remember what the name is. It's not an addiction. It's actually, I can't remember the terminology, but no, it's not an addiction because, and...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:30)

It's not an addiction.

Dr Denise THINKS (09:39)

The reason why they say it's not an addiction is because once a person stops smoking, there is no symptoms that happen. You don't get headaches, and you don't get any other kind of issues that happen when you get off of drinking alcohol or something like that. By terminology, it's not an addiction, but obviously it is addictive, right?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:01)

Okay, addictions.

Have you looked at what other things are addictions? You mentioned alcohol, and I'm curious about coffee as well.

Dr Denise THINKS (10:11)

Yes, coffee. That's definitely an addiction by term because when most people stop drinking coffee, they do get a whole lot of headaches and things of that nature. But I think a big part of it, and the number one addiction that I understand, is sugar. And in research, sugar is more addictive than cocaine, which, to me, when I found that out, I think is astounding.

I think if we were looking at sugar, maybe 30 or 40 years ago, in research and maybe the food and drug regulation, we're kind of categorising it as a food. I don't think it would be able to be called a food because it truly is a drug. But the fact that FDA is in the same administration, that's also kind of interesting too. But yes, but sugar is.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:03)

Okay, there's our clickbait.

Sugar is a drug. And I can tell you that a few people, at least one, talked on the show a while ago about how sugar is hidden in so many foods we wouldn't expect. And I was grateful to receive a lemon pepper seasoning, a sort of powder seasoning. And I looked up the ingredients, and from what I remember, I think there was sugar added to that.

Dr Denise THINKS (11:06)

Yes, right.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:32)

And so I might use that a little bit, but I have to be mindful that, okay, I need to really stick with what I know, which is making things from scratch. So I know what goes into it. Two questions stem from this. Firstly, do you find that when people make their own food, or if they know what someone else is putting into their food, making it from scratch, do you find that they have less hidden ingredients that they don't want?

And the other question tied in with sugar is, did you find that some other sweet ingredients like maple syrup might be a bit more okay than using added sugars?

Dr Denise THINKS (12:09)

Great questions. I love those. Definitely people are definitely way more aware when they're cooking at home. So we've got to figure out a way to get back to that. And that is something that I do talk about in my 13-week step-by-step program. Because, like you said, sugar is in everything or almost everything and things that are not even meant to be sweet. The food scientists know just exactly how much to put in a product to make you addicted to it, but not make it sweet at the same time. So that alone just kind of tells you what's going on. So for sure, if someone is cooking, like I know one of my things that I became more cognizant about was I was trying not to eat as much oil. And so, but I love fried foods. I'm plant-based, I'm 100 % plant based. So I fry mushrooms now.

And it's like, that took me off a wave of them fried chicken, right? And so the first time I fried some mushrooms, you know, we got the oil in the pan. of fact, this is my office back here.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:15)

You can show for those watching the video, we can show the pan if you want to, and then we can just explain it for those who are listening on audio. So, is that a proper pot-shaped pan behind you? What do you use? You can bring it over to the camera if you want to. Why not?

Dr Denise THINKS (13:34)

So.

Let's see, let's see, let's see. All right.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:38)

We see like those demonstration shows. like this. I love those pans. So that's your frying pan. That's nonstick.

Dr Denise THINKS (13:47)

This is my Brian Pamplemore,

Yeah, for sure.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:50)

So it's deep for those who can't see, it's deep, what an inch or two maybe, so you can fit a lot of food in there.

Dr Denise THINKS (13:57)

Yes, for sure. Yes. And so, you know, when you're frying something, you pretty much want to have it covered from bottom to top. And when I took the five mushrooms out, I was like, what happened to all the oil that I poured in here? Yeah, yes. And I'm like, that's a lot of oil to ingest. And yes, there are better oils out there than canola and vegetable, which are the worst too.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:12)

It's all soaked in like a sponge.

Dr Denise THINKS (14:24)

But even if it's avocado oil or grape seed oil or anything, that's still a lot of oil to put in your body. So just from that knowledge alone and actually seeing that connected with the emotion to it, that's what made me pull back a lot on a lot of my favourite foods. yeah. So definitely when people can see what's going on versus just ordering, yeah, they'll definitely be more aware.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:43)

Yes.

Dr Denise THINKS (14:51)

able to stop.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:53)

So much is coming out from this. I can tell you that my first step towards wellness was food, and I'm resonating with what you are saying so much. I discovered whole plant diets before the pandemic in the year or two before it. And I don't mind what everybody else will eat. We're all different. We all have our preferences. I'm not trying to convert the whole world, but I know what can work. And, and the thing about eating whole plants is you then end up exploring different ways to, for example, use the oils. Some people get a reusable spray to just have a little bit of oil on. I try to, if I'm frying something, I don't mind having a bit of oil just shallow in the pan and not completely letting something swim in oil. However, there are now the the air fryers. So then there's oven baking, but then how much oil are you pouring onto something before it goes into the oven, right? So we have all these habits. There are so many questions out of this. Did you find that switching to some sort of habits with the oil helped to

Do you aim for moderation now? How do you handle that?

Dr Denise THINKS (16:16)

Man, that's a great question. I'm pretty, so I've been playing around with the whole plant-based lifestyle for almost 10 years now, I guess. So just a little bit of context. For me, I was raised on chitlins, pig feet, everything on the pig from the rooty to the tootie, right?

If you guys could see her face right now, it's hilarious.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:46)

Well, I'm not a TV presenter. I have too much expression. Okay, so you were raised eating basically the entire pig, nearly.

Dr Denise THINKS (16:55)

Absolutely. So when it comes to people thinking I'm judging them for not being vegan or plant-based, whatever, listen, I have no heaven or hell to put you in because I get it. I was addicted to all of those foods, and I thought it was normal, you know, until I, you know, came into some health challenges. I was like, it's connected to these foods. OK, but I still can't stop eating them. So.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:19)

What was it for you? Was it weight? Was it something else?

Dr Denise THINKS (17:23)

Yeah, I was definitely gaining weight for sure. It was fibroids growing inside of me. had two of them the size of tennis balls. And so, yeah, I just couldn't understand why my stomach wouldn't go down and just bloating was easily for me and all these kinds of things. And, you know, the solution was to just cut them out. But I was like, let's go deeper and understand why they're there, how they got there, all that kind of stuff.

And it's basically what we're consuming every day. Yeah, so to go from, and I'm sorry, I'm not even sure if I remember your original question.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:00)

I think the question was, the original question was around habits, I think, but when you said you had health issues, look, this is my thing. I feel like this is so special because I can tell you the first time I was a guest on a podcast, I accidentally stumbled into talking about my health journey out of the blue. And I took it for granted. I think people need to hear about this. And I wanted to emphasise - some people feel like there are best selves on diets other than this one, and I'm not going to try to influence that, but you're saying that you had these fibroids. want to understand what a fibroid is, and to really get the common ground here, I can share with you that I very accidentally dropped what became 20 kilograms, and now it's more like 25, and it just happened. I didn't

You know, people join programs, people track point, people do all these things. I just dropped weight accidentally by eating foods that was not well, foods that was real food and not junk. So I'm so curious about your health experience, partly with plants, but also just with eating real food and getting sensible with your habits. I'm guessing you would have been consuming other things aside from the entire pig being in you're in America, right? So you would have been surrounded by the junk foods, the fast food, all that was playing a part?

Dr Denise THINKS (19:28)

Correct, yes. A huge part, huge part. I mean, I played basketball in college. So, you know, I was in pretty good physical shape. And so I have the mentality that I can eat whatever I want to because I'll just work it off. And that's actually where more of the problems even started because, you know, doing the physicals in college, learning that I was anemic, and then we were trying to figure out why I'm anemic. And then it finally, finally traced back to the five words because I was

bleeding so excessively and just like, all right, this is not my cycle. It went from one week to two weeks to three weeks and one month, and didn't even stop. So it was like, what's happening?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:17)

Gosh, that's nearly biblical, and the fibroid is that. Does that feel a bit like a tumour? Is it like a lump? What is that

Dr Denise THINKS (20:26)

Sorry, yes, so fibroids are tumours, and they're, quote unquote, almost always benign, almost, which is a good thing, but it's still a tumour. And the way that it's treated by most people in the medical profession here is that it's just no problem, it's no big deal. mean, my doctor just kind of shrugged his shoulders, and I was asking all these questions and.

15 minutes in of me asking questions, he seemed to get a little bit irritated, and he was just like, just cut them out. And I was like, well, will they come back? And he was like, probably, it happens a lot, especially in Black women. So just come back, and we'll cut them out again. I'm just like, no, that does not sound right. That does not sound okay.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:04)

I'm not!

This is why some medical people hate me because it's controversial to want to... I'm getting wound up and passionate here. It's controversial to want to prevent something instead of literally just waiting until you have to cut out the tumour. It's controversial to want to prevent the habits that lead to reaching that point.

And it's controversial to not just end up at the same place you were in again.

Dr Denise THINKS (21:43)

Exactly. Yes, that part. That part.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:47)

That's what the doctor said

to you, just you'll end up cutting out more tumours later.

Dr Denise THINKS (21:51)

Pretty much. And I actually get a lot of clients that come to me that have been down that road. One of my most challenging, I guess, clients had 16 tumours several years ago. Then, well, she wasn't my client then, but several years ago, she told me she had 16 tumours. And then multiple years later, she had 32. So they doubled, obviously.

And, you know, and I was just telling her, know I had her write down everything that she ate for like two weeks. And I saw it in plain, in black and white. Like, this is the reason, this is part of it. And she didn't want to believe it. She had family members or one or two family members that went through the same thing, female cousins, and they were trying to tell her, as well as I was trying to tell her. But, you know, we, food is love.

Food is how we express ourselves. Food is, it's cultural. Food is like almost everything to everybody. You know, it's the one thing that we all have in common, no matter where we live, no matter where we're from, no matter what we look like. Food is what we all have in common, right? Whether you can afford to eat or not. So she was just really, really tied to certain foods. And it's no secret why she keeps going in and out of the hospital.

Well, fast forward later, and I was able to help her retrain her brain to look at food for what it is. It's either life or it's death. So now I've taught her to actually, there's a substitute for everything. Just like I said, I had a love for chicken, but I know what chicken does for me from an animal. So I just fry some oyster mushrooms. They're the same texture, same look, same crunch, same flavour.

The flavour comes from the plants. So when people are like, no, I can never give up my meat. I'm like, listen, the flavour comes from these seasonings. know, it's not the meat itself. If you just ate the meat, it would be disgusting. All right. Like, no. So that's it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:45)

Yes.

It's plain. Okay, flavour.

I'm so keen to add for those who have not tried, whether you are eating plant-based or not, you have to try this. Everybody get a tamari soya sauce, which is, I think, gluten-free from memory. Do you think it is as well? So, a gluten-free tamari soya sauce and maple syrup, those two ingredients together will change your life. That's a step one. Do you think so?

Dr Denise THINKS (24:05)

Yeah, it is.

Wow. What kind of flavour does it give?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:17)

It's like a teriyaki. And both of those ingredients, I think, burn pretty fast. So it will just have that sort of sweet umami teriyaki kind of quick-cook barbecue feel really quickly.

Dr Denise THINKS (24:19)

Okay, gotcha, okay.

Wow.

Wow, that seems amazing. And that just reminds me, it's like that's part of food psychology. We get so addicted to things because we remember how it tasted the last time. And just hearing you describe that was like, what can I make with that tonight? Like, you know?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:53)

Okay. It is so easy. The quickest thing you can do is get a block of tofu. And if it's a firm tofu, do really thin strips and maybe heat those in the pan with a bit of oil or without oil and toss on those flavours. It will, a lot of people use that for a bacon feel without the bacon. But also you can, you can put that onto the mushrooms.

So the other trick I saw for mushrooms is you have the mushrooms in a pan. My gosh, this is becoming a cooking show for a second. You have the mushrooms in a pan, and then they're frying for a bit. And then you put another pan on top to squish them, and then they improve the texture. Then I would, once you put the sauce on, it's going to cook really fast. So you want something to be pretty much cooked and ready to just heat and flavour and then toss it on the plate.

Dr Denise THINKS (25:28)

No!

Yes, yes, yes, that's an amazing method. A lot of people use that to make a steak-like texture. So yeah, I was never a steak person, so I never really tried it. But yeah, that sounds really good though.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:03)

But okay, so we could talk about the food methods all day. But I think we should pivot a little bit. One of the things that came to mind is that some people have the attitude, and I've seen this in some health professionals, some people have the attitude that eating anything is okay, or enough, sufficient. And although

Eating anything is better than not eating. The concern I've had is more recently, some people from other fields who don't focus on food, they are saying just eat anything and back years ago, a fancy doctor was telling me eat whatever you want. That's a long time before I lost weight, I can tell you that. It was after I stopped eating just whatever I wanted. Skip the pies and cake.

Dr Denise THINKS (26:55)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:56)

And then changes happened. But the point is that I'm a little bit worried that professionals and experts are saying just eat anything, and that even translates to the processed foods. Some people are still choosing food from a packet that has added sugars, salt, and other ingredients. I'm wondering how do you approach the regular mainstream individuals and also the experts who are saying that attitude when we know from our personal experiences that after we changed our habits, our bodies changed.

Dr Denise THINKS (27:36)

Wow. Well, I mean, I would just have them look; the proof is always there. The numbers don't lie. How you feel doesn't lie. How you look doesn't lie either, you know? So I would just have them do some real, true soul searching and just say, how do you feel? And if you're questioning certain things, usually that's your intuition telling you that doesn't sound right.

You know, and again, I shouldn't be so exhausted. Yes, if I have a family, if I have a job, if I have this and that, it's still not normal for your body to be so fatigued. And so your body keeps record, and it's going to tell you straight up, black and white, like if that's okay to keep eating X, Y, and Z, you know, it's just the proof is there. I'm a researcher. And so I look at the facts.

And it's always, it always tells the story, right? So.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:31)

Look at the facts. It's that simple.

Look at the facts.

Dr Denise THINKS (28:35)

Yeah, yeah, wow, that's concerning.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:39)

It is. Are there any go-to resources from yourself or from anyone else? Do you recommend any resources for people who need guidance for the first step essentials?

Dr Denise THINKS (28:53)

Um, sure. So, you know, if you want, if you're the type of person that can do your own research, um, I would just say, you know, cause I know this is the world of AI now. Um, and information is just some of it. It's not the greatest, as we just got through talking about. So if you're going to do your own research, make sure you know, maybe start at Google Scholar.com and look at the research that is peer-reviewed, unbiased and non-sponsored. Because if you remember, maybe 10 to 15 years ago, when a study came out and said, sugar is healthy. OK, what do you think? Who made that research? What do you think? Exactly, right?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:35)

Who paid for it? You

know, I need to find out later. I'll look it up. I'm so keen to know who paid for that.

Dr Denise THINKS (29:43)

I mean, you can just think of the top beverage companies in the world. So yeah, you know, it was from, yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:51)

Wow, normally the step one don't have the soda, it's the easiest thing.

Dr Denise THINKS (29:57)

You know what, when we're so addicted, just think of a crack addict or a heroin addict. You know, they're looking for any kind of, you know, excuse to just continue on with the habits. And so if you love chocolate for one, for example, and there's a study that says, you know, chocolate is good for your heart, you're going to keep on eating it because you're like, wow, I love chocolate, and I'm doing something for my heart. So why not? You know, no, that's just everything is just taken out of context. And again, you have to look at who is benefiting from telling you this information, you know? One of my most interesting stints in college was my marketing professor. And he, this was 30 years ago, 30 plus, but he was one of the first people to have me aware of certain like food marketing and how it works. And so there was one company, I can't remember what it was, but it was an orange juice company, and they're pretty much all the same now. But this orange company had like on the carton, said, you know, heart healthy or good for your heart or something like that. Right. Now, obviously, the average person is going to think, OK, if I drink this juice, I'm doing something good for my heart. We'll know. Did it have what?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:10)

So then have lots of it.

So did people then drink lots of it, like have extra?

Dr Denise THINKS (31:17)

It was the number one orange juice company in the world for multiple years. So yes, in the world.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:21)

in the world? Not

in the world. Okay, let me guess. Was there sugar in the juice?

Dr Denise THINKS (31:27)

Of course, there was. I mean, you're not going to have something that tastes good and looks good and is the number one in the world if it doesn't have the addictive substance that we're talking about, right? So, plenty of added sugar, plenty, plenty. And so...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:40)

I did sugars.

I'm sorry,

I will stop face-palming because I'm just stunned by what these people have been doing.

Dr Denise THINKS (31:51)

Yeah, and so the interesting part about the whole thing that this is heart-healthy, it was basically some of the proceeds from your purchase go toward heart research.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:01)

It had nothing to do with the ingredients.

Dr Denise THINKS (32:04)

Nothing at all. If anything, it made you worse just from drinking it. So yeah, sneaky stuff.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:12)

That's why I'm so sceptical.

People have good intentions. This has taken us in a very interesting direction because it's a slippery slope. Firstly, there are fundraising companies, charities, NFPs, not-for-profits that are trying to prevent some diseases, cancer, diseases, that sort of thing, where they might have a fun celebratory

say morning tea fundraising program that they get everybody to do, do your own morning tea, that sort of thing. And on the surface, it might seem fine. And I think one cupcake in your year is no big deal, but they are not changing the food culture in doing that. It's just using the current food habits.

then raise money to try to fix something that some of these foods are contributing to. And again, it's okay to eat a birthday cake, you know, we're not, we're still living life. But I wonder to what extent those programs are even talking about food. Have you seen sometimes very good-intentioned people who want to make a change? They have the opportunity to address the food factor a bit more.

Dr Denise THINKS (33:33)

Yeah, for sure. mean, yeah, I think a lot of people do have good intentions. And then, of course, there's also a lot of people that are not even thinking about it because they're in the same loop and cycle and trapped as everyone else. So it's just like, it's a birthday. OK, let's have cake. Let's have ice cream. Let's have all these other traditional things that we're used to. And so, yeah, I think that, you know, not everybody's evil or anything like that. But there are definitely some people that get paid a pretty good salary to trick us and all those kinds of things. So yeah. Good.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:09)

So do you think money

is a part of it?

Dr Denise THINKS (34:11)

Do I think what?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:11)

Sorry, I apologise. Do you think money is a part of it?

Dr Denise THINKS (34:15)

Oh my gosh. Oh my goodness. I unfortunately, yes. Yeah. That's a big part of it. It's not the only thing, but it's a big part for sure.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:23)

Okay, so the money is a factor in what people are telling us about what we eat.

Dr Denise THINKS (34:31)

Absolutely. mean, again, going back to the sugar study, know, it's like sugar is healthy for us. Once again, who benefits from that? Because it's going to be so many people. like, OK, great. I can do this and that. You know, you know, deep down you shouldn't want to, but you're looking for any sign to help encourage your so-called bad habits, you know? So, yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:53)

I'll ask another controversial question. Do you deal with families and children, and the food habits around learning from a young age?

Dr Denise THINKS (35:03)

Definitely. I don't do children one-on-one, but I have done group workshops for classes, community centres, and things of that nature. And of course, I love working with kids because they're so green and they're just so happy to learn and all these other things that the world has not gotten to them yet. They're so excited about it.

And it reminds me of when I was a kid and I was trying to get my mom desperately to stop smoking. I wouldn't do anything. I would break her cigarettes. And of course she break my backside. I didn't care because I was like, I want you to stop smoking. It's so bad for you. But of course, you know, 30 years later, she's 30, 40, almost 50 years later, still smoking. But yeah, kids have the greatest intentions.

So yeah, I pretty much work with anyone, group setting, small, large, on stage, doesn't matter, as long as I get to teach.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:04)

That's amazing. When you have a larger audience and you are on stage, you have a set amount of time to change how they act, how they live their lives. What's normally the top thing they need to do first to get their habits back on track? And what's the first myth you normally need to bust? Is it the sugar or something else?

Dr Denise THINKS (36:29)

So I get them to just become more aware. You know, I spend a lot of time in my step-by-step program on becoming aware and how to become aware. It's just one thing to say, you need to pay attention to this. No, but there's creative ways that you can have someone become more aware of what they're doing, what they're eating, what it even tastes like. You know, earlier when we were talking about, popcorn and movies, there was a study done by the Dr. Wansink that I was talking about where he did a study where he rented out a movie theater and he offered a free movie and free popcorn to the guests. And those guests had just finished eating dinner or lunch. I can't remember what time of day it was, but they had just finished eating, and the free popcorn was five days old.

And so he was watching them the whole entire time, pick up the popcorn, eat a little bit, and then they'd make this face, and they'd put it back down. Well, within minutes, movie is going, they pick up the popcorn again and start eating it again. Their faces are like, this is disgusting, but they're still eating it, even though it's disgusting, because again, because of the comparing. And so a lot of times we're distracted by watching TV or movies.

gulping food because of whatever is going on, the music or all kinds of different cues that are just making us eat, eat, eat, and we're not paying attention. And our brains are telling us, hey, we're full stop, you know, but that's why we have a lot of digestive issues. So just helping them walk through that is takes a lot of time and a lot of work, but it's definitely foundational to what we're building. And so those are the

One of the first few things that I'm teaching people is to how to become aware and step by step, just keeping things really, really simple, nothing too elaborate over the head, just one, two, three, keep it really simple. yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (38:35)

What I'm seeing in that example is a step further than what I expected, which is awesome because lots of people talk about swapping food, and I had phases of enjoying popcorn at home. I would make it in a pan or a popcorn maker and not add anything. No salt, no dairy-free butters or

No oils, nothing, but chances are. Okay, so a little drizzle of something is nice. know, look, I'm weird, but people can, okay. Some people add nutritional yeast. I don't eat that a lot. It sort of relates to my tummy a bit strangely, but it's the thing people can do. Or I have occasionally added a

Dr Denise THINKS (39:05)

It feels like some foam.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:28)

Slight drizzle of olive oil, but either way it didn't have all of the stuff that's on the popcorn you see in the movie cinemas. But you're going beyond the swap because what I'm seeing and what you revealed is that people are not even thinking about their eating, and it's the default of if I'm looking at a screen, I am eating something as

I'm looking at a screen and considering people's screen time became four hours in a day on average, that's an average. So it could be more on some days. Are some of those people then defaulting to grabbing at food just because they are looking at something?

Dr Denise THINKS (40:16)

For sure. mean, so there's another author that I enjoy reading his book, James Clear. And he's the author of Atomic Habits. And so he does a lot of teaching and research on how our environments are designed. So if you walk into any house, I bet at least nine and a half out of 10 times you walk in someone's house.

Where's the couch going to be faced? It's going to be faced toward the TV, right? So why does that have to be? Like it's a place to sit down and relax. Why can't it be facing the window or facing the wall or facing some art? You know what I mean? But we have gravitated to where it's our design, to where it faces the TV. So that alone just kind of tells you how we've been conditioned to think about relaxation time or

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:46)

The TV.

Dr Denise THINKS (41:11)

Food in general and all these different pairings. So it's so interesting when you like take a step back and really pay attention to what's going on. So yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:21)

In times in my life when the living room or my switch-off space did not have a TV, I was more focused on doing other things. And I'm not saying that we should all not have a TV, but are you, are you suggesting we could rearrange our surroundings in our homes to change our habits?

Dr. Denise THINKS (41:45)

Absolutely. mean, there, so when I, think to go back to your earlier question about, you know, when I'm talking to large groups of people, what am I really teaching them and what am I trying to have them leave home with or leave, you know, that place with to take home is tiny little patterns that we can make adjustments around our environment to make it where it's so small, it's almost hard to fail. So the, redesigning your couch and your living space, that could be a big deal for some people. But one example that James gave was he wanted to start flossing more. And a lot of people don't typically floss because usually I'm gonna ask you, where do you keep your floss in your home? Or do you have?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:32)

I keep my floss and my toothbrush in my tote bag that's essentially like a handbag, which is a bit controversial. I should probably keep them somewhere more visible.

Dr Denise THINKS (42:45)

Exactly, yes. So that was kind of the point. So I myself, I have a little cup where I keep my toothbrush in. And then, you know, if you want to start flossing more, get a little bowl and put your little, the string or however it comes designed right next to your toothbrush, because most people like myself, the floss is in the drawer, and it's not seen. So little small, tiny patterns like that to improve your habits that you want to gravitate toward.

Little things that almost make it hard to fail if you redesign and make some simple changes for yourself. yeah. If you want another one, I can tell you another one.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:25)

I have another one and then I have another question after this.

Okay, the next question I should really ask. Did anything else aside from your health struggles lead you to fully work in this space? Did something tell you people need more guidance? I know you had a few different professions or a few different things you explored. You studied marketing. What made you say people need to prioritise this as a thing they need to learn?

Dr Denise THINKS (43:56)

That is a great question because I've been in multiple different areas within the health and wellness space. So, of course, my own, you know, growing up, I always played basketball since I can remember. So obviously, that's automatically a lot of exercise, but on the food side, it didn't become more important because again, I could eat whatever I wanted to. I thought, and it didn't start,

I didn't start paying more attention to that until maybe almost 30 years old. And so I remember getting off the couch, and my knees just almost buckled. And I think I was 29. Yeah, I wasn't even 30 yet. And I was just like, man, it's my time to get arthritis. Almost everybody in my family has arthritis, and I have a pretty big family. And so I was like, well, it's just my time to get arthritis. And then I started to get acne, you know, within a year. And I was like, I didn't have acne as a teenager when most people get it. What is really going on? So it's just growing more and more and more. And I could probably smack you with my acne from here to where you are. Cause it was just so bad.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (44:54)

Really?

It so it was visible. It was distinct, visible acne around age 30.

Dr Denise THINKS (45:15)

Absolutely, yes. I would barely want to leave the house and if I did, I packed on makeup just to try to hide it. But of course, it's protruding from my face, so it's tough to hide. And so that was one of the things where I start reading a little bit. It's like, okay, why do I have adult acne? Why do people get it? And the most consistent research that I found was dairy.

And I was like, Dairy, no, I can't let go of my milk and cheese. So that can't be it. Let's look for some other stuff, right? Cause we try to make excuses for certain things. And once, you know, I think I left dairy or milk alone for about two weeks, huge difference already. And I was just like, wow, okay. What if I stopped eating cheese? What's going to happen? Cause every lot of people in my family have glaucoma, and what's the other one?

With the eyes, glaucoma, and it starts with a C.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:07)

I don't know, what's glaucoma?

Dr Denise THINKS (46:09)

So it's basically a disease in the eyes to where it begins to a point to where you are, you can become legally blind, essentially. So yeah, so from what I understand with ⁓ dairy, it just becomes built up so much in your body and your system that it just covers everything, and you get to a point where you can't even see anymore. multiple family members in my on my mother's side to where they have glaucoma. And I can't remember the other one. It starts with a C. Anyway, pretty much the same issues. And I was just like, I don't want to go down that road. So I want to pay attention to what's going on in my family. Let me do the opposite of what they're doing. And let's just see what happens. That's when I started running experiments on myself. And so was like, OK, I am losing a lot of weight unintentionally.

It's just happening because I'm watching what I'm eating. I used to I've worn glasses since I was in the sixth grade, even though I needed them well before then. Vision was terrible. Now I'm getting older, and I don't need my glasses anymore. Skin is clearing up. My knees are no longer hurting, no arthritis anymore. What's happened? Like this is like I'm aging backwards through literally.

And I'm just like, what's happening? And I found out that the top nine of 10 diseases are all caused by food. And so that's when I went down rabbit holes of just research of more and more, like what's going on. So that's how I got there.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:43)

I want to emphasise to anyone who is on the fence that even if there is some chance, some people use this logic for other beliefs as well. If there is any chance food could help, you're not exactly going to get more sick having a few more chunks of broccoli. You may as well do what you can. Why not? You know, what do you have to lose by eating better food?

Dr Denise THINKS (48:08)

Right, definitely, right? You can always spit it out if you don't like it. But again, if you season your meat, season your veggies so they can taste just as good. For some reason, they are left bland, and I don't understand why. Put some seasoning on these.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:24)

goodness. You are tapping

into something that is so prompted from my childhood because I grew up with the chunk of meat and then peas and carrots, maybe a broccoli, something like that on the side, right? I think this was in a few countries. Were you basically the same? The peas and carrots, something like that, on the side of a plain chunk of meat? And let me know if you did the same, because this is what I was doing as a kid. How do you make it have flavour at all? What you would call ketchup, I would call tomato sauce. I have no idea how much sugar I was pouring onto my vegetables every day. No idea, but there was more of a chance that I would eat it because I knew nothing about how to create flavours. So, do you think that one of the best solutions we have is to reconnect with flavour?

Dr Denise THINKS (48:58)

Wow, got you.

Oh my gosh, absolutely. Like, I'm actually encouraging a friend of mine to help people understand how to season things because if he's, and he's a chef, and so he's like, no, this needs more cardamom. And I'm like, I don't even know what cardamom tastes like. You know what I mean? So, how do we kind of help people with that? You know, but it is definitely interesting for sure. But start with what you know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (49:46)

I would love to collab with some of the cooking shows. I considered making a cooking show, but I think that I would have needed a whole set-up for that. And initially, no, you don't need a whole set-up.

Dr Denise THINKS (50:02)

We try to make we try to complicate things way too much. No, I know so many people that have a large following, and they live in a box. You know, so no use what you have if you are good at what you're doing and it can explain it. That's all people really care about, so start…

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (50:21)

I think you are influencing this. can tell you more than 60 people have talked on this show. And the thing that's evolving is food is playing such a part. We need other things as well. We need to look after our mental health. But food influences the mind, the emotions, it influences your energy, your clarity, of course, your appearance, and it's not shaming. We're not shaming someone who is a particular shape. So to be honest, I'm an Aussie size 12 right now, which is gosh, I think that your 10 is out 14 from memory. So for sizes, so I'm not tiny. It's like I'm not a size two or four or anything like that. We're not telling everybody to be a thin size. It's not about that, but it's about feeling okay and feeling well. Do you agree? It's not, it's not simply about fitting into a shape, but it's about feeling okay. And the role that food plays in that is so significant. But what you are reminding me of is that the simple habits, I think I took it for granted because I learned these habits and they became my new normal. And you're telling me other people have yet to learn the magic of the combo of tamari and maple syrup or other things. So there's a room for people to make a few simple steps and then really not just eat in a way that helps them, but also have fun.

Dr Denise THINKS (51:55)

Right. Yeah, for sure. You know, again, it's kind of like tapping back into the innocence and the fun that we had as kids, you know, whether, you know, and this example that I'm going to give, I'm not shaming anyone either, because I've had my own challenges, right? And still do, because it's not about perfection either. But when people tell me that they go to sporting events and they like to drink a lot of beer, and the alcohol is what makes it fun, it's like,

No, when we were kids, we could play with a box and had fun. You know what I mean? It's not the alcohol, it's not anything outside of you was what makes it fun. It's internal, you know? So if you can just reach from within to figure out what you actually enjoy, I think that's one of the bigger problems. We're not doing things that we enjoy anymore. We're just going through the motions, and just like doing it because we have to, you know? So.

Yeah, if you have to get something from outside of yourself to enjoy life or enjoy a moment, that's the wrong kind of mentality. So yeah, we got to figure out to be kids again, you know?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:05)

You need to enjoy your life instead of just consuming enjoyable things.

Dr. Denise THINKS (53:12)

Absolutely, yeah. That's one of the first things I talk about as well in my program is I don't even bring up food for a while. Like, it's so many other things that's outside of us that makes us, that drives our behavior toward food. And it's the stress, it's the emotions, the ups and downs that make us drive toward a particular food. And if you can stop yourself in the middle of that and be like, okay, why do I specifically want a donut right now. It's something else that's emotional that's going on. So when you were talking about, you know, not putting anything on your popcorn, most people, including myself, were like, wait a minute, that tastes like styrofoam. So what do you mean you don't put anything on your popcorn? But if you want a sweet popcorn or a savory type of popcorn, that tells a story on what's going on that your body is really truly asking for. So, um,

Really dialing back and figuring out, okay, am I happy in my life? If not, what's gonna make me happy? What is making me feel the way that I am? Is it because I feel like I just went through a breakup in a relationship, so I'm missing that person now? Well, the toppings that you would put on your popcorn or the way that you gravitate toward a donut or a cookie or chips, that all tells a story on what's going on the inside.

And so you have to pay attention and actually address that. If not, you're going to keep reaching toward those things outside of you and trying to fill a void. And guess what? You're never going to fill that void because food does not serve that purpose. It may feel like it does for temporary reasons, but after 10 minutes, 30 minutes, you're going to be back in the same loop again. And so, yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:55)

What fills the void for you? Is it a purpose? Is it something else?

Dr Denise THINKS (55:01)

I'm just being talking to you and talking to people like this, doing these workshops. I absolutely love it. And not, you know, for them and for myself, it's reminders for myself too, because again, I'm not perfect. This is not about perfection. There's no such thing, but there are certain things I'll think about when a client comes to me, and they ask me certain things, and I'm like, yeah, let me tell you about this X, Y, Z. And it's a great reminder for myself.

This is my playground. So yeah, I absolutely love it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:33)

I want you to, I want you to be on this playground as well. I want to wind up with three lessons that everybody should do or remember because I love having three of something, and it can be a wind-up of a call to action for everybody who's listening.

Dr Denise THINKS (55:54)

Okay. So I kind of gave away some of my nuggets already, as far as I know, waking up, doing things opposite. No, no, no, it's all right. I'll give you some new ones. This comes from research as well. So belief, desire and expectancy. You have to, and I don't want to sound like an afterschool commercial, but you do have to have belief in yourself. Okay.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (55:59)

And you can read up.

Dr Denise THINKS (56:20)

You do have to have belief into whatever it is that you're an aspiring or aspiring to do, whatever goals that you want to reach. You have to actually believe that you can reach it. If not, we need to scale back on that goal before we just, you know, a lot of us just try to bite off too much, and the brain is going to say danger, danger. That's way too much. Let's just go back and sit on the couch because that's safe.

Our brain is doing exactly what it's supposed to do when we try to bite off way too much at one time. So if you have a goal and you don't actually believe that you can get to that goal, you're exactly right. So we need to scale back and figure out what some smaller steps to get to that bigger goal. And then from there is the desire. In order to believe that you can get to a goal, you actually have to desire it. You actually have to figure out some kind of way where you can link it to where this is what I want to do. I want to find my own playground and whatnot. So I have to have that desirability in order to keep going and be consistent. And then from there is the expectancy theory. It's like, I expect myself to get there, and I believe that I deserve to get X, Y, and Z from these particular goals. So belief, desire, and expectancy that open up a world of doors for you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (57:43)

Dr Denise, thank you so much for your time, your conversation, your wisdom and your personal insights as well. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Dr Denise THINKS (57:54)

No, thank you so much again for having me, and let me know when you want to come back. I'd love to come back again.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:00)

Awesome! Will do!

Dr. Denise THINKS (58:01)

All right, you have a good one.

🎙️ The Motivate Collective Podcast Episode: Your Nervous System Knows — Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard on Trauma, Generational Patterns & Healing the Body That Remembers

EPISODE SUMMARY

What if the anxiety, perfectionism, people-pleasing, and emotional reactivity you've carried your whole life didn't actually start with you?

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard is a Queensland-based psychologist whose work spans private practice, community clinics, academia, and the media. She speaks from both professional expertise and personal lived experience — having witnessed domestic violence and experienced abandonment in childhood — and brings to this conversation a rare combination of clinical precision and genuine warmth.

In this episode of The Motivate Collective, Dr Emma-Leigh unpacks the nervous system from the ground up — how it gets shaped in childhood, how unprocessed trauma shows up in the body and the workplace, and what it actually takes to break the generational patterns we didn't choose but often carry. She also takes a fascinating detour into the neuroscience of why we leave things in hotel rooms, the long-haul nervous system hangover of COVID, and why having a village might be one of the most important mental health protective factors we've quietly lost.

This is a conversation that connects the dots between childhood, adulthood, the body, the brain, and the world — and it will change the way you think about why people behave the way they do.

GUEST BIO

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard is a registered psychologist based in Queensland, Australia, with experience across private practice, community clinics, and academia. Her areas of clinical focus include childhood adverse events, generational trauma, anxiety, workplace bullying, burnout, and emotional regulation. She has contributed to national media and publications — including writing for newspapers on supporting children through COVID and an upcoming piece for a national travel magazine — and is a passionate advocate for early psychological education in schools. At the time of recording, Dr Emma-Leigh was on maternity leave following the birth of her second daughter, and will be returning to private practice later in the year.

WHAT WE COVER IN THIS EPISODE

[00:45] — Why Dr. Emma-Leigh became a psychologist: adverse childhood events, empathy, and being the person people turned to [02:06] — Boundaries as a life skill — not just a therapy concept — and why empathetic people burn out faster without them [03:01] — Her personal lived experience of witnessing domestic violence and experiencing abandonment — and why she doesn't blame her parents [04:46] — Generational trauma: how anxiety, perfectionism, people-pleasing, and guilt can be inherited — and how to cut the cycle [05:21] — The nervous system explained: how it gets imprinted in childhood and what that means for adult behaviour [07:00] — Fight, flight, and freeze: how different people respond to the same threatening environment [07:53] — Fear underneath anger: why Yoda was right, and what school refusal really tells us about a child's inner world [09:13] — Why healing often starts with the parent, not the child — and why that's such a hard conversation to have [10:14] — The lasting impact of a teacher's words: how authority figures shape us during the brain's most malleable years [12:04] — Workplace bullying, authority, and why some people struggle to stand up for themselves professionally [14:14] — The physical body under chronic stress: migraines, IBS, muscle tension, and the symptoms doctors can't explain [15:45] — People-pleasing and perfectionism in the workplace: the fast track to burnout — and where it usually starts [16:45] — Leadership, ego, and the inner child: why some people in authority are running from their own unworthiness [18:12] — Anxiety and control: why leadership roles can mask deeply anxious inner worlds [18:24] — Narcissism in the C-suite: self-loathing disguised as grandiosity, and the workplace cultures it creates [19:55] — The doormat vs. the bulldozer: finding the assertive middle ground in any environment [21:02] — Why the next generation may be better equipped: mindfulness in schools, emotion regulation frameworks, and the Zones of Regulation [22:37] — Media work: writing for newspapers on children and COVID, and an upcoming travel magazine feature [23:33] — The neuroscience of why we leave things in hotel rooms — and practical hacks to stop it happening [28:54] — Brain fog, dissociation, and the brain that can't brain: what stress and trauma do to memory [31:07] — Re-traumatisation: what happens when memories surface, and why you shouldn't navigate that alone[32:59] — The COVID nervous system hangover: why so many professionals are still running on hypervigilance [36:11]— Internal vs. external locus of control — and how to hold both personal responsibility and systemic awareness at once[38:18] — Spirituality, meaning-making, and why belief is a genuine protective factor against mental illness [40:18] — The village we've lost: why modern individualised societies are harder on mental health than most people admit [42:02]— Circling back to the essentials: nervous system, boundaries, and a life that actually works

KEY INSIGHTS FROM THIS EPISODE

On generational trauma Dr. Emma-Leigh's lived experience of growing up with domestic violence and abandonment is the foundation of her passion for generational trauma work. The core question she brings to every client: is what I'm feeling mine, actually — or did it come from somewhere else? Anxiety, perfectionism, people-pleasing, guilt — these patterns often have roots several generations deep. The lived experience of tracing them back, naming them, and choosing to stop passing them on is some of the most important therapeutic work she does.

On the nervous system as a lifelong record. From the moment we are born, our nervous system is forming a map of the world. Is it safe? Are my caregivers safe? Am I safe? The lived experience of growing up around anger, chaos, or unpredictability gets imprinted — and it shows up decades later in a snap at the kids, a panic response to raised voices, or a paralysing inability to speak up at work. Understanding this reframes "difficult behaviour" as nervous system logic — not moral failing.

On fear beneath anger One of the most clinically important insights in this episode: anger is almost always a surface emotion. Underneath it is usually fear or anxiety. The lived experience of a child with school refusal who kicks and screams is not a behaviour problem — it is a child whose nervous system is terrified. Labelling it as defiance without asking what it's about causes harm. This applies just as much to adults in workplaces and relationships.

On the body, keeping score. Chronic stress and unresolved trauma don't just live in the mind. Dr Emma-Leigh's lived experience as a clinician has shown her over and over that migraines, IBS, muscle tension, and shortness of breath are often the nervous system screaming for rest and re-evaluation. When the doctor says nothing is physically wrong, it may be time to ask what the body is actually responding to.

On the COVID nervous system hangover, Dr Emma-Leigh names something that many people sense, but few say out loud: we are collectively still recovering from years of hypervigilance. Checking case numbers every night, managing homeschooling, navigating an unpredictable world — all of it conditioned the nervous system into a state of sustained alert. The exhaustion, the irritability, the Mondayitis and Sundayitis that people are still experiencing years later — it doesn't have to be the baseline. But first, it needs to be named.

On spirituality and meaning as protective factors. Research consistently shows that people with some form of belief — spiritual, religious, or simply a personal sense of meaning — have a genuine protective factor against mental illness. You don't have to like what happened to you. But finding what it means for how you want to live, and who you want to become, is one of the most powerful things therapy can help with.

STANDOUT QUOTES

"Is this anxiety, this perfectionism, this people-pleasing — is that actually mine? Or did it come from somewhere else?"

"Children model everything from us — good and bad."

"Anger is usually a surface-level emotion. Underneath it, most of the time, is fear."

"Your nervous system is screaming at you to slow down."

"You don't have to live in a perpetual state of feeling absolutely exhausted and despising work. It doesn't have to be that way."

"I can control how I respond internally — and I can help my nervous system feel safe right here, right now."

"You don't have to like what happened. But what did you learn about yourself? And what does this mean for how you want to live going forward?"

"If we had our village again — in many ways, that would be more supportive of our mental health."

DR. EMMA-LEIGH'S PRACTICAL TOOLKIT

For parents navigating big emotions in children: Look underneath the behaviour. A tantrum, school refusal, or aggressive outburst is often anxiety wearing a costume. Ask what's driving it — not just how to stop it.

For adults navigating the workplace: If you struggle to speak up to authority, there may be a reason rooted well before this job. That's worth exploring — in therapy if needed. In the meantime, start small: an email, a message, a low-stakes conversation. Build the muscle.

For travellers who keep leaving things in hotel rooms: Create a notes-based checklist of your most important items. Use a two-person check if travelling with someone. Or create your own mnemonic — even a little song. Sounds strange, but the neuroscience backs it up.

For everyone navigating the current world: Name the hypervigilance. You may still be in a nervous system state shaped by years of collective stress. It's not weakness — it's biology. And it can shift.

THE ZONES OF REGULATION(Mentioned by Dr Emma-Leigh as a classroom tool for emotional regulation)

A framework increasingly used in Australian schools from prep/kindergarten age:

• 🔴 Red — I'm angry, I need space and time out

• 🔵 Blue — I'm feeling sad or worried

• 🟢 Green — I'm feeling good and ready to learn

• 🟡 Yellow — I'm excited or have too much energy, I need a little regulation

RESOURCES AND LINKS MENTIONED

🌐 Follow Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard on Instagram for psychology content and tips 📰 Watch for her upcoming article in a national Australian travel magazine on the psychology of leaving things in hotel rooms 📚 Evidence-based therapies mentioned: Trauma-Focused CBT, Cognitive Processing Therapy, EMDR, Schema Therapy, Parts Work

CONNECT WITH THE MOTIVATE COLLECTIVE

🎙️ Listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts 🌿 Join The Motivate Collective community for more conversations, events, and resources built around growth, wellness, and conscious living: www.motivatecollective.com

TAGS / CATEGORIES Psychology | Nervous System | Generational Trauma | Childhood Trauma | Anxiety | Burnout | Workplace Wellbeing | Emotional Regulation | Boundaries | Parenting | Mental Health | Healing | Neuroscience | Personal Development | Wellness

Produced by The Motivate Collective | Host: Melanie Suzanne Wilson

⚠️ CONTENT NOTICE

This episode contains an open and thoughtful conversation about childhood trauma, domestic violence, adverse childhood experiences, workplace bullying, burnout, PTSD, and anxiety. Everything is discussed with clinical care and compassion — and some of what is shared may bring up feelings of your own.

If you are currently struggling, please know that you are not alone and that support is available right now.

🇦🇺 Australia

• Lifeline — 13 11 14 | lifeline.org.au(24/7 crisis support)

• Beyond Blue — 1300 22 4636 | beyondblue.org.au

• 1800RESPECT — 1800 737 732 | 1800respect.org.au(domestic and family violence support)

• Kids Helpline — 1800 55 1800 | kidshelpline.com.au(ages 5–25)

🌐 International:findahelpline.com

Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:00) I like the fancy chair that looks really nice for video.

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (00:02) Just a rocking chair, but yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:04) Rocking chairs look very fancy and big.

Emily, welcome to the show. You are talking from Queensland in Australia and you are a therapist who has done a lot in academic spaces with families, with people who were bullied in work. You've talked with media, you've done all sorts of things.

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (00:27) Thank you for having me. Yes, yes, yeah. All different, like private practice, community clinics, at the moment, I'm just on maternity leave after the birth of our second daughter, but I'll be getting back into some private practice with some of my existing clients later on in the year.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:45) Amazing! What made you get into psychology to begin with?

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (00:51) Great question. So I think it's twofold for me. I think having some of my own childhood adverse events, I think kind of when I was in adolescence, I then started to think about why do people tick the way that they tick? What makes people tick the way that they do? What makes people behave in certain ways? Why are people like that? And so that was one thing going on in my head. And then I just sort of became interested in psychology. But then also, when I speak with other fellow psychologists, they also report this as well, a lot of the time, that as we were growing up, we were often seen in our friendship groups, as that person that someone would come to for help, it just naturally happened. Quite an empathetic person. So if someone had a problem, they would come to me. But I then had to learn appropriate boundaries and things like that as well. So it wasn't too much for me.

But yeah, it was just, I guess, a shoulder to cry on.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:48) That's so sweet. So you learned at a pretty early age something that a lot of people learn a lot later on, which is to help people, help people without giving everything and giving your whole self and setting a limit because you can't constantly help everybody.

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (02:06) Yeah, you're exactly right. And I think boundaries is something that is really important as a therapist, and actually just as a human as well. Just sometimes we feel like we've got to, you know, not as a therapist, me speaking now, but just in everyday life, we feel like we've got to, you know, it would be good to help X, Y, Z and do this. Especially if you're a very empathetic person, that can be very draining on the physical body if you don't have those, and mentally as well, if you don't have those boundaries and stuff in place.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:39) I think we'll explore that a little bit because I know that for me, even recording heavy conversations, amazing conversations that can have a lot of emotional weight, there needs to be a way to contain that in some way. But you mentioned that this was after something happened in childhood. Can you share anything, any hint about what was going on?

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (03:01) Yeah, yeah, just, I'll touch on it briefly — one day, maybe I'll write a book or whatever on it. But in my experience of growing up, I — and look, it is quite unfortunately common to experience what we call an adverse childhood event. And that includes like witnessing violence or experiencing violence. So for me, I observed domestic violence within the household that I grew up in, and then experienced like abandonment, rejection sort of things from both parents. But I sit from a place of not blaming either one of my parents. And that's a really difficult spot to get to eventually. And other people will say this, that it is difficult to get to a place where you don't look back on your caregivers and blame them for things that you've experienced in your life.

Because often it is a generational thing. Often, they grew up with some adversities in their life as well. And so they just never learnt how to stop that pattern from going on and on and on. Which is why I'm really passionate about generational trauma and working in that space — to work on, okay, if some of these behaviours, if this anxiety, if this perfectionism, if this people pleasing, if this feeling of so much guilt — is that actually mine or did it come from somewhere else in the past? And like, my parents, my grandparents and so on. Often, we see it many generations back. And then, is that mine? What I'm feeling, or is it theirs? And then how can I cut that cycle and stop that cycle, so it doesn't kind of pass on? So for me, that's kind of been an unfolding journey, having experienced and witnessed parts of this abuse and violence and things like that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:46) Some questions about what could typically happen. I'm so curious. Firstly, when people are growing up at a young age around angry feelings or seeing people having angry feelings, then I'm curious, do people typically or often end up growing up anticipating the worst from people, or what's the response that people end up applying to everybody else as the sort of safeguard default?

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (05:21) Great question.

What you're really talking about there is the nervous system. So the nervous system — obviously, we all have our own nervous systems. But from the moment we are born, our nervous system is starting to understand whether the world is a safe place, whether my caregivers are a safe place, whether I'm safe as a person in my own body, and then the people around me. And so if you are growing up in an environment where someone, for example, is angry all the time, yelling, abusive, violent, things like that — that can get imprinted in the nervous system. So then your body can start to — now, this is not the same for everyone — but your body can start to feel unsafe. And the way that you respond might be different.

So, for example, some people might model that behaviour. And so when they feel threats, for example — and we see this follow through into adulthood — often a lot of people aren't aware of what's going on, why they're angry all the time. But some people may respond to a threat the same way as they were modelled to them. So they may also yell, also be abusive, maybe physically or maybe not physically, just verbally. Like they don't understand perhaps why sometimes they just get so angry that they just snap, and they might yell at the kids and say something they didn't mean to, or get stuck at the traffic lights and all of a sudden they're putting a rude finger up or yelling verbal abuse at someone else in traffic. Not being able to regulate the emotions.

So it can be that way — maybe you're modelling that — or it can be really internalised, which is that anxiety that you're speaking about. And we speak in the nervous system about fight or flight and freeze as well. A fight is where there's a threat, and we just want to attack it. And so that might be that more anger, yelling, that sort of response. Whereas the flight is like avoidance, running away. I don't feel safe, I want to get out of the situation, I want to escape. And that can be that anxiety, that avoidance of doing things. Potentially for some people, if they are around people who yell — they've grown up around this yelling environment — that might actually trigger them internally. And when they hear different people yell, they might have some sort of physiological reaction as an adult and go, okay, I don't really know why, but I'm starting to feel a bit anxious around what's happening.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (07:53) I'm wondering if sometimes people confuse the feelings — perhaps sometimes an inner feeling of fear could look externally like anger or something else. And a behavioural specialist who was on the show a while ago quoted Yoda. I'm wondering if you agree with Yoda — where fear leads to anger that leads to hate and to the dark side. We'll start with that. Do you think that's true?

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (08:19) Yeah, I do. For a great degree. Absolutely. So often, anger is like a surface-level emotion. But underneath anger, most of the time, is fear, is anxiety. And a really good example of that that I say to parents all the time is that if you think about a child who has school refusal, for example, you might often see tantrums, kicking, screaming, and automatically it's labelled as a behaviour problem, noncompliance, defiance, without actually considering what might be going on in that situation. Often it's not a behavioural problem. Often, underneath it is actually huge amounts of anxiety about school. And our job is to find out why that anxiety exists. So it may be difficulties with friendships, academics, teachers and so on.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:13) And something could be really going on at school. I'm wondering if sometimes the grownups find it easier to blame the child and blame how they think the child is built instead of looking at themselves.

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (09:29) Yeah, Melanie, you're absolutely right. Yeah, often it's a really difficult conversation for me to have with parents — that often healing starts with ourselves a lot of the time. As much as we'd love to think that we're perfect, there's always things that we can do to work on ourselves, which then flow onto our children as well. And I like to remind parents that children model everything from us, good and bad. So they learn how to ride a bike because we're showing them, we're teaching them, we're explaining stuff to them. Same with many other things in life. But we can also inadvertently model things that perhaps we don't like, like smacking, hitting. That, unfortunately —

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:14) — anything. Yeah. It could be beyond the parents. I know some kids are bullied at school. Some — who hasn't got a story, even to use a light version — who hasn't got a story where, sometime during childhood, a teacher said something, and it stuck with us our whole lives.

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (10:31) Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yep. And if it still is there, if it is still stuck, I do challenge people to — we want to unwind that a little bit. We don't want that to trigger us anymore. And in psychology, we speak about trauma reminders. And while that is not necessarily classified as trauma in the definition of trauma — a teacher saying something that might have hurt our feelings — it has a huge, profound impact. I can remember things that teachers have said to me that impacted me. Because as a child, as an adolescent, our brain is really malleable. So we are very vulnerable, and picking up on mixed messages from people in authority can have a really big impact on us.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:17) It really can. We look up to those people, and sometimes things are said in front of a class. So essentially, we're trying to feel okay within a group and tribe, that sort of thing. So that can sort of happen anywhere. I'm wondering if people have had similar feelings, then in the workplace, to go back to the workplace bullying that you mentioned. Seriously, there are workplaces where a boss can have that authority energy of pointing a finger or judging people when really something else was the cause of something. Okay, what do you think is going on in workplaces that people need to learn from?

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (12:04) Yeah, yeah, it is really tricky. And look, in some situations, you've got to get out of there. To be frank, sometimes for your own mental health and your nervous system, it's okay, this environment does not serve me in my highest and best good anymore. And I need to go somewhere else that is going to be in alignment with my values. However, before you jump to conclusions, of course, there are other things that we want to try and implement in that environment.

Some people — I actually spoke about this a little while ago on my Instagram, I did a post on this — some people can have a real difficulty standing up to authority figures, standing up to like a boss or a parent or a leader in some description. Some people can; other people it's much easier for them. And so, unfortunately, sometimes with some of those people, they can then be taken advantage of. And that's like a fast track to burnout. Of course.

So we want to get into a space where we can confidently say what our needs are, or at least have that conversation. Even if it's like — I feel really uncomfortable with putting boundaries in place, maybe I need to send a little email or something like that to start with. And then you're kind of building up from there.

But we want to understand also, okay, why do I have such challenges in standing up to authority? And often that can be work for therapy. But if you pull that apart a little bit, it can be — potentially, there's been rejection in the past. There's been experiences in the past where you have stood up, and then you've been rejected, you've been abandoned, you've lost a job because you have spoken up before, or you've lost a relationship and so on. So somewhere in your mind, you're going, it's not safe to say what I want to say — that this is too much, I can't handle it, I'm burning out and so on. But if we don't do that, when we get to burnout, it can literally get to the stage where you just can't get out of bed, you can't leave the house, you're having so many sick days and so on.

So there's a lot to evaluate within that, and everyone's circumstances are obviously individual.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:14) And it would probably be amplified and extended because a full-time job could be 8am to 5pm. It could be longer than a 9 to 5. It's the bulk of the waking hours sometimes — or the bulk of the day. It's quite a chunk of someone's life and someone is choosing to, for that much of their time, be in that sort of situation.

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (14:40) Yeah. And that then can start to have impacts on the physical body as well, which people are not often aware of. They're not often aware that these migraines they keep having, this IBS, these headaches, this muscle tension, this shortness of breath — they've been to the doctor, they've said nothing is wrong, but often they're not aligning that with maybe it's the stress that they're going through or the burnout that they're experiencing. My nervous system is screaming at me to slow down, to maybe reevaluate my environment.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:13) Yes. A couple of other things I'm wondering might be going on.

I do want to ask — firstly, before the one about overcommitting — I'm curious if sometimes people do the opposite of not standing up to authority, and if they are trying to comfort themselves by making sure they are in the centre of what's happening and making sure they're always climbing the ladder, elevating — that sort of thing. Have you seen that as a trauma response?

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (15:45) Totally. Yeah, absolutely. Nail on the head. Yes. So people pleasing, perfectionism — feeling like you just have to, you know, if I don't do everything that my boss asked me to do, then something bad's going to happen. I'm going to lose my job. I'm not going to get that promotion and so on and so on. Also a fast track to burnout. Even if you're not aware of it. All of a sudden, you're working — like you said — well beyond the nine-to-five. You're working till 11 o'clock at night, four days a week, and then you're having to do weekend work as well, just to try and do all this extra work to impress your boss and so on.

Again, for a lot of people, this people pleasing, perfectionism, and stuff like that tends to start in childhood. It can be in environments where maybe you grew up, and you felt like you weren't good enough, and then you had to start to prove your worth to other people. So deep down, a lot of these people may feel like they're not worthy and may feel that love is conditional and so on. That might have been what they've been taught.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:45) I'm curious if you've seen those feelings in people who are in management or leadership. So, not trying to please a boss, but trying to always feel like they are above everybody.

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (17:00) Yeah, yeah. And that can be a self-worth thing as well. It can also be an internal battle within themselves — I'm constantly striving to be X, Y, and Z just to tell myself that I am good enough. And that can be that inner child part of people — that inner child part of someone that needs to be fulfilled because you were never fulfilled perhaps when you were growing up and when you were a child. And so we call it parts work or schema therapy — we talk about that inner child part of us, and those parts of us that maybe were abandoned and so on. And that can be — it's an evidence-based therapy that can be so helpful and effective at looking at those parts.

But also being in a leadership role — often a lot of those people can be, not always, but can be highly anxious. Because you're in control of that situation. And anxiety loves control. Because it means that it's an illusion of control — you're trying to control an environment that's often unpredictable. So you're trying to make it predictable, which should, in theory, reduce the anxiety. So I do see that as well.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:12) The predictability, the feeling of control. Okay, so part of being in leadership is knowing that we can't control everything in the world.

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (18:24) Exactly. Yeah. Unfortunately, I do see the flip side as well. We do see CEOs and other high-level executives that do have things like narcissism. And that is a different sort of control — that control is maybe more so about, again, a lot of people who have narcissism have very low, poor self-esteem and self-worth, but they don't realise that they do. They're often self-loathing. They often think very poorly of themselves. They overcompensate by having this grandiose sense of self. And that's what can cause often toxicity in the workplaces and burnout, especially when people feel like they're not being listened to and not being heard.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:12) It's a lot, handling the identity in any level, because all sorts of people might start off or continue — I'm so keen to get my brightness up a little bit, I just feel like it needs a bit more brightness. So so many people work for someone else, either alongside working for themselves or because they are wanting to work in a larger space — and they need to make sure they are feeling supported. But then, when people are doing leadership roles, it sounds like it's a balance of not putting ourselves down too much, but not overcompensating with our egos, or however you might put it.

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (19:55) Yeah, great. You've put it really nicely there. Yeah, it's a nice balance — we don't want to be — I often say this with children when I'm working on assertiveness — we don't want to be a doormat where someone's walking all over us, right? Just doing all these things just to potentially get a promotion that may never come, and just burning ourselves out. And therefore that's then overflowing into our family life, or we're never spending time with our friends and family, or never working out and eating properly and so on.

But then we also don't want to come across as really aggressive either in our approach. So it's that sort of balanced approach of, okay, how can I communicate what my needs are? They may or may not be met, but at least I can communicate that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:44) Communicate them. If anyone can learn that in childhood, I think they are a step ahead of a lot of grown-ups.

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (20:49) Yeah, absolutely. And to be honest, it's pretty rare that you'll find parents who are pretty attuned to that — because we just don't get taught. It's no one's fault. We just don't get taught this very well in school.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:02) At least there are conversations like this now. I know that years and decades ago, people weren't even talking about these things. At least it's a conversation. Did you find that growing up, people weren't talking about all of this as much?

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (21:17) Yeah, yeah. So exactly. These days we're seeing psychology as an elective in high schools — yes, we are seeing that, which is amazing. We're also seeing schools starting at prep or kindergarten — I think it is in New South Wales, we call it prep in Queensland, or primary school, elementary school — we're seeing mindfulness and meditation taught from a really young age, from like five or six, and just having mindful breaks. And I'm also seeing children learning how to regulate their emotions better. So in classrooms, there's a fantastic resource called the Zones of Regulation. And that shows — red is stop, I'm angry, I need space, I need time out and so on. There's blue, I'm feeling sad, I'm feeling worried. Green, I'm feeling good, I'm happy. And yellow, I'm feeling maybe excited, I've got a little bit too much energy, I need a little bit more space to regulate. Those things we're starting to see come into classrooms, which is huge.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:22) Interesting, interesting — colour code, of course, that would translate to young ones. And you did something with media. What have you been focusing on when you were talking to media?

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (22:37) Yeah, a few different things. So in the past, when I was working in academia, I enjoy writing. In academia, I was writing some tips and things for newspapers around how to support children during COVID. So that was quite good at that time, of course, because anytime a child experiences — you know, cyclones that we had in Queensland last year, just natural disasters, or like a pandemic — anything like that — it's new and different for all of us, but for children it's really difficult for them to understand what on earth is happening. So I've written some articles around how we can explain things like COVID in a friendly, childlike way.

I also enjoy going on podcasts. Recently I wrote another article for — it hasn't been released yet, but it's coming — for a national travel magazine, around why we leave things in hotel rooms?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:33) Oh, I love this one! I left my MacBook charger in a hotel once or twice, and I felt so guilty — and people were so kind because I was thinking it was my fault, but they knew that those MacBook chargers are not cheap, and they left it aside. They tried so hard. But I feel like — why? I never do that. Is there something — okay, what's going on with our weird brains when we're travelling and we leave something that we normally never leave? What's going on?

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (24:04) Yeah, so there are a few things. Number one — ideally, when we're on holidays, our nervous system hopefully should shift into more of a parasympathetic state — rest and digest, relax, chill, drink piña coladas or whatever suits you, or just go on a yoga retreat or whatever. So we're relaxed. But then usually when we're packing, ready to get to the airport, and so on, it can be — exactly — this sympathetic activation, this drive of like, I've only got a certain amount of time, I've got to get to the airport. Sudden rush. And then that quick switch into a sympathetic nervous system activation can potentially mean that we forget things and so on. But also, we're in a different environment. We're out of routine. So then you've got — we're out of routine, different environment, different place, I've got time pressures, and I've just been relaxing for so long. We've got all of this going on.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:37) I'm wondering about the solution to that. I'm guessing part of the answer is to allocate some time well before that shift to where we are going next. Are there any little hacks to stay organised when our brains are ultra zen?

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (25:19) Yes, yeah — of course, extra time, but often for most people that probably doesn't happen, especially if you've got kids. But checklists are really good. So, especially checklists of important things. So a good idea is to have maybe notes on your phone, for example, of the most important things — so MacBook charger, rings, my passport that I put in the safe, or whatever, my watch or whatever that's in the safe, or this is on the bedside table, or what have you. So having a list of that that you can then check off at the end is really important.

If you're travelling with someone, a two-person check is also really important. As well as allocating extra time.

If you have a really poor memory like some people do, but you really want to remember something that's really important — like something you've left in the safe, for example; the safe is often where people will leave things or forget things — out of sight, out of mind — you can do things like — now this might sound funny but there's a stack of research behind it — in neuroscience, coming up with your own little song or rhyme. I think they call it — don't quote me — I think they call it mnemonics or something like that. And that's where you might literally come up with a little tune that you sing to yourself — okay, watch is in the safe, rings on the bedside table, and so on. And then you've got this kind of stuck in your head that you can use from hotel room to hotel room. Sounds funny, but there's a stack of research behind it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:54) Turn it into a song!

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (26:56) Yeah, exactly.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:58) I like that. Okay, would you pick a cheesy song? I don't know why, but my brain has been gravitating towards those really — I don't know if we're the same age or not — but you know those 90s school disco songs? Do you think something really catchy is going to help, or are we going for the really steady — just make it a rhyme — or does it not really matter what someone picks?

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (27:28) Look, I think if it resonates with you, that's what's going to work for you. So catchy is great, if it rhymes, also great. And look, some people don't love that idea, and that's fine. There's a lot of research behind that. But if it works for you, it works for you. Maybe for other people it's the list — it's doing the checklist — and getting into what we call habitual learning. Every time I go away on holidays, every time I stay in a hotel room, this is just what I do. I just, as I'm packing my bag, I write my list of those important things. And before I leave, I check off that list of important things. And that's habitual learning.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:08) It's awesome hearing a therapist say, " Do what works for you. Things are not one size fits all.

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (28:14) Exactly, exactly.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:17) That helps a lot. Okay, deviating from travel because that's awesome. Oh, that reminds me of what else I was so keen to ask about — because you're talking about memory — have you seen that if people have had a very stressful time, or maybe a workaholic moment, or something that's clearly traumatic — death, any of those things — that the brain just can't — I use this silly phrase of the brain can't brain. It's like it's just not doing the things that it normally always does, be it remembering or planning. Is there a name for that?

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (28:54) Yeah, a few things. So an informal name is what people now refer to as brain fog, right? So some people might not realise, but actually a symptom of anxiety is attention and concentration problems, also in depression. So that can mean working memory issues. So yes, when we're talking about PTSD, complex PTSD and very traumatic experiences, we can do what's called dissociation.

And regions of the brain or memories can literally switch off. I also see that in young children who have significant meltdowns and trouble regulating their emotions. The amygdala is in the centre of our brain and that is mainly responsible for emotional processing. And that is right next to the hippocampus, which is highly associated with memories as well.

So when you have all these — if you think about trauma, anger, really extreme emotional responses — all these neurons firing and that part of your brain region is lighting up, it can really overwhelm the brain. And sometimes those memories can then — you can dissociate from the situation. Or those memories can kind of lock in. It's actually not uncommon to hear a child who has significant emotion regulation problems say that they actually just can't remember what had happened. And you're going — but Henry, you just hit your sister across the head. And sometimes people think that they're lying, but in actual fact, they actually don't remember.

It's just like — the same things can happen with extreme trauma as well. People will often describe that maybe they remember bits and pieces, but they have a lot of gaps in their memory. Sometimes there's some emerging research that's showing that over time, when the body and the brain starts to feel safe, some of these memories — without sounding cliché — actually unlock, and they remember some things that maybe happened in childhood all of a sudden, which is really fascinating.

It's very fascinating neuroscience and research. Yes, stress — huge impact on the memory.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:07) So then, once we calm down and remember things, is there the risk to then feel perhaps triggered, or alternatively, just reliving things, and then it's like going through a whole new trauma, suddenly remembering things out of the blue. Does that happen?

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (31:28) Yeah, so yes — what you're describing is being re-traumatised. So yes, perhaps — I'd like to think that the brain is only showing us that because it thinks we can handle it in that moment. So, which, you know, you may have brought down your sympathetic activation enough for your body to then say, I don't need to avoid this anymore. Maybe it's time for me to start processing some of this stuff potentially.

However, I don't recommend doing it alone. Some people never get there. Some people have been traumatised so much that — and they haven't done any therapy, or it's just too full on, just too scary to look internally and look within. And there is no judgment with that. Because some people have been through some awful things.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:14) From the intensity of — those sorts of trauma — I'd love to look forward because I think there's a lot of change going on. It's worth asking someone like you about some of the trends.

I mean, I think people are looking at a lot of change. It's been a year or two where a lot of workplaces wanted people to go back to the office, and that's a shift after working from home a lot. People are seeing that AI is finally really coming into the workplace — in a lot of jobs that probably didn't involve that a few years ago, there are definitely a few shifts. Are you seeing that professionals are needing to navigate a lot of changes at the moment?

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (32:59) Yeah, definitely. I think everyone's nervous system is probably still recovering from COVID. I think if we think back to those times in 2020, 2021 — I can even remember myself — everyone, you know, we're tuning into the news at 10 o'clock to see how many cases there were that day. Okay, so that's going to be — if we reflect on that — that is actually hugely triggering to the nervous system. And you're exposed to that for a good couple of years, where we're seeing, you know, there's 855 cases today or whatever it might be. And we're not realising that at the time, but we're starting to live in this perpetual fight or flight state. So then we obviously had a lot of changes. For people with children — homeschooling, changes, juggling, working from home, managing children — and then people initially were fearful about how working from home was going to work and so on.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (33:57) COVID — if you don't mind me diving in. Look, I haven't seen official stats, but have you seen that so many people had breakups after and during COVID?

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (34:07) Yeah, yeah, yeah — relationship breakdowns — it really impacted people in so many ways. And it's changed us forever. Yeah, we just — you're right. So many people are expecting people to work back in the workplace. But we're also seeing a lot more people working hybrid, which has brought about a lot of good change for people seeking a better work-life balance. Yeah, in some industries that are allowing that. But I think we're still seeing our nervous systems being a little bit on guard still.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:40) Okay, I feel like you're confirming something that a lot of people don't admit. Because I felt like when I was interacting with, especially some bureaucratic spaces, people think they're just being formal and precise, but I kind of — my gut sensed this ultra alertness. This — it felt like people are still heightened in some way, and I couldn't quite pick it. But it feels like you're acknowledging something that people don't want to say. Because we're not meant to comment on that era too much socially or culturally anymore — but I think you're saying that unspoken feeling we're all having, where we're all still recovering from the world.

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (35:27) Yeah, it's like a big long hangover, you know. One way to put it. But yes, people may be fearful to say it, but I think there's a lot of people that are unaware — to be honest — that maybe it's not — I don't want to say normal — but you don't have to live in a perpetual state where you're feeling absolutely exhausted, drained, still tired after sleeping all night, and just really despising work and struggling, having Mondayitis and Sundayitis, and being irritable and yelling at the children and stuff all the time. It doesn't have to be that way. And so COVID and that era definitely put people into what we call hypervigilance a lot more, where we're really on edge.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (36:11) Okay, do you see some people blaming individuals for that hypervigilance when really they might be responding to an environment that sort of caught up and brewed that collective feeling for a while?

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (36:27) Yeah, yeah, great point. Great point. So sometimes, in psychology, we talk about something called an internal and external locus of control. So an internal locus of control is where you really take responsibility for your own feelings, thoughts, behaviours and actions. That's not being ignorant to the fact that we are always influenced — we are influenced by politics, the media, people around us and so on, of course. But then there are some people that identify more with an external locus of control. And those are the people that say that nothing is my fault, everyone else is to blame, and I can't control anything. All this stuff is happening to me — poor me, victim mentality. And so you do get those sort of people that are more like that and feel like they have less control in the world and blame other people.

But we want to acknowledge that, yes, there may be some really awful things happening in the world and some things that are absolutely totally out of our control — politics and natural disasters and war and the weather and whether it's raining or not. Right, we have all of these things. But I can control how I respond internally to that and how I think about that. And I can help my nervous system feel safe right here, right now.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:48) I see. I see.

Okay, I think a great concluding chapter — because I feel like we could talk all day, especially visiting every hot topic, and I'd love to talk about every single one of these for an hour each — but you mentioned spirituality. Is that one of the keys? I'm wondering if you can let people know about how spiritually and emotionally they can level themselves out with everything that's going on.

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (38:18) Yeah, great question. What I will say about spirituality and belief systems in general is that the research shows that people who have some sort of belief — whether they're spiritual, whether they're religious, regardless of what their religion is, whether they just have some sort of belief in what the meaning of life is — those people have what we call a protective factor against mental illness, or against additional anxiety, depression, trauma, and so on. And what the research is showing is that having some sort of faith or belief in something outside of themselves can just help reduce that anxiety and so on. So it can certainly be very helpful.

But some people are atheist and that's okay as well. But when I look at people who've gone through trauma and adverse life events, our evidence-based therapies — like Trauma-Focused CBT, cognitive processing therapy, and even EMDR — help us not only to process it, but then to find meaning. Maybe why it happened — but not necessarily like, why did this have to happen — but what did I learn about myself in that situation? And what does this mean for me moving forward in terms of — does it change who I am or how I want to live my life? Does it change the values that I want to live my life by?

So you don't have to necessarily be spiritual or religious or what have you, but certainly finding meaning can be hugely beneficial.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:47) It sounds like part of the meaning is saying — you don't have to like what happened, especially if it's a trauma, a disaster, or anything like that. But even if you don't like what happened, how can you grow afterwards in a meaningful way?

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (40:01) Exactly. That's exactly it. Thanks for summarising for me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:05) Is there anything else that you think everybody — I apologise, or rephrase — is there anything else that you know that everybody needs to learn as we grow and deal with this wild world?

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (40:18) Yeah, yeah. I think just circling back to the nervous system again — for centuries, we've gone through war, and we've experienced adversities, but they look very different now. And we're in many cultures much more individualised, with less support than many centuries and decades ago. Like we don't have, you know, necessarily in many cultures, that village to call upon around us, which is —

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (40:50) Sorry to dive in — do you think that's one of the solutions that we need to sort out? Do you think we need that village?

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (40:57) Well, again, it's certainly a protective factor. I was just reading the other day — someone speaking about, you know, if we had our village again, how — in many ways, I'm not going to say better, but in many ways more supportive — that perhaps would be of our mental health. And it would be. But with today's society, it is so challenging when both parties in a household are expected to work, or it's difficult to not work even if you're a single person. I mean, work has a lot of protective factors. But I guess what I'm saying is — people are hugely time poor, and that's a function of today's society. And living intergenerationally with families all the time is challenging in today's society.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (41:47) It really is. So maybe we need to figure out how to be less time-poor — to have more space and time and mental clarity to connect with potential tribes or villages.

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (42:02) Yeah, yeah, and that's circling back to boundaries as we were discussing earlier — looking at a good work-life balance.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (42:10) Boundaries. Okay. So nervous system, boundaries — back to those essentials. Emily, you really have brought everything together. Thank you so much for sharing a glimpse of your reality and so much expertise.

Dr Emma-Leigh Senyard (42:28) Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed this chat.

What if everything you thought you knew about dopamine was wrong?

In this episode of The Motivate Collective Podcast, Melanie Suzanne Wilson sits down with Dr Sankalp Garud — Oxford-based neuroscientist and PhD in Psychology and Neuroscience — to explore the brain science behind motivation, connection, creativity, and happiness.

From why the journey genuinely rewards your brain more than the destination, to how your environment directly shapes your dopamine levels, to the very real risks of AI replacing human connection — this conversation will change the way you think about your own mind.

Dr Sankalp also shares his deeply personal story: a misdiagnosis, the wrong psychiatric medication, and a night he thought he wouldn't survive — and how that experience became the fuel for his life's work.

In this episode:

• The real role of dopamine — and why it's about wanting, not pleasure
• Why your environment is part of your neurochemistry
• The brain region responsible for reading social context
• How touch, vulnerability, and authenticity build deeper connections
• Why your best ideas come on walks and in the shower (it's neuroscience)
• Dunbar's Numbers and why losing friendships over time is completely normal
• AI in mental healthcare — co-pilot today, pilot tomorrow?
• Three science-backed lessons for motivation, connection, and self-awareness

Dr Sankalp Garud is a neuroscientist and researcher at Oxford University whose work spans motivation, decision-making, social connection, and dopamine. He has studied happiness across cultures, practised meditation extensively, and brings both rigorous science and lived experience to everything he shares.

📍 Find The Motivate Collective: https://www.motivatecollective.com 📸 Instagram: [your handle] 💼 LinkedIn: [your handle]

🎙️ Subscribe so you never miss a conversation that matters.

Chapters 00:00 Introduction 00:32 What is motivation? The science explained 01:23 Dopamine: wanting vs. liking 03:09 The journey is tracked in the brain 03:59 How to manufacture motivation 06:31 Dopamine and your environment 09:26 Are we a product of our surroundings? 11:37 Social connection as a survival need 12:35 Personal vs. professional relationships in the brain 13:54 The orbitofrontal cortex and social context 16:34 Social skills are learnable 19:34 Can we see trauma in the brain? 21:22 Neurofeedback and real-time dopamine signals 24:02 Movement and motivation 24:36 The default mode network and creativity 28:57 How context shapes friendship 32:41 Vulnerability, touch, and deeper connection 40:26 Dunbar's Numbers and relationship circles 45:13 AI, loneliness, and pseudo-relationships 51:45 AI in healthcare — how far will it go? 1:00:22 What inspired Sankalp's research 1:02:20 Misdiagnosis, medication, and a near-death experience 1:07:10 Three lessons for motivation, connection, and happiness

summary

In this engaging conversation, Dr Shanae Jefferies explores the sociological forces shaping society, the state of the US and global community, and the importance of authentic human connection in an increasingly digital world. She emphasises the need for honesty in leadership, community building, and focusing on individual tasks to foster peace and understanding.

keywords

sociology, community, US politics, social media, AI, human connection, leadership, societal change, mental health, social cohesion

key topics

The role of sociology in understanding society Global influence of national policies and actions The importance of community and social support Impact of social media and AI on human interaction Leadership qualities needed for a peaceful future

guest name

Dr Shanae Jefferies

Titles

The Sociology of Society: How Global Processes Shape Us Building Community in a Digital Age: Insights from Dr Shanae Jefferies

sound bites

"America is more divided than ever" "Human connection is irreplaceable" "We all have similar core needs"

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Sociology and Its Importance 03:00 Current State of the US and Global Perception 06:00 Community and Collective Needs 09:03 Political Climate and Group Conformity 12:00 The Role of AI in Politics and Society 14:44 Privacy Concerns in the Digital Age 17:35 Self-Perception and Societal Standards 20:52 Socialization and Gender Differences 23:30 Conclusion and Reflections on Identity 36:16 Body Image and Social Perception 38:36 The Importance of Community Connection 41:16 Navigating Online Communities 46:11 The Role of Technology in Human Interaction 51:18 The Need for Human Connection 55:49 The Impact of COVID-19 on Social Interaction 01:01:36 Cultural Change and Individualism

Transcript

Dr Shanae Jefferies - transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)

Shanae, welcome to the show.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (00:04)

Thank you for having me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:06)

This is such a joy, and you are such an expert. have so much to share. What do you want people to know first about what you do and what you teach everybody?

Dr Shanae Jefferies (00:20)

Okay, so I do this thing called sociology of the week on my TikTok. And I really like the big part of this is that I love sociology, and I want sociological research to be respected in kind of the way that psychological research is. Because it's about how society is forming around us and how that impacts our person. So I feel like that we should say more about this and in more conversations that are just like, research is only science. Research is also studying society and its people. So yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:57)

It really is. So is the difference that psychology tends to focus on the individual, and does sociology look at the broader collective and what we're all doing as a trend?

Dr Shanae Jefferies (01:09)

Kind of. It's in there. Sociology is looking at the processes of societies like the infrastructures and the institutions that are shaping us, like are shaping around us, but also in a global atmosphere, like what are we doing in one country that affects another country? As first-world or first-class or whatever countries, what are we doing that actually is degrading others in a non-like super tense way, but just like affecting other nations to keep them under our foot or in this stronghold. So I think like just seeing like what how the nations come into play, how the institutions within one nation. And of course, I'm from the US, so all of this feels like, my goodness, please help us. But like...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:05)

Okay, on that note, how are you feeling in the US right now? I saw some headlines in the news. What's your main feeling and impression of your nation and the world right now?

Dr Shanae Jefferies (02:20)

Embarrassment. I think the rest of the world kind of knows that this is not the unified American foot that is being put forth now. I hope that they do. But right now, we kind of just have to sit and watch what happens because we're not in control. So embarrassed is the big one. I'm going to say embarrassed.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:48)

I feel so much compassion for that. I know that Americans can feel very patriotic, and the impression I get from the outside is that there's clearly division and has been for a long time. I think in some ways, other countries are having feelings like that as well. Over here in Australia, the thing that really sunk in deeply for me, did you hear about what happened in Bondi?

Dr Shanae Jefferies (02:54)

Yeah.

Yeah.

I did not.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:20)

So basically, there was an attack on Jews in Bondi. Yeah.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (03:27)

Where is Bondi?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson:

So, it's basically, it's a beach area in Sydney. So that made headlines everywhere. mean, you know, politicians in other countries were commenting on it. It was it was huge. And I think that Aussies aren't always feeling divided. Mean, I have talked with a few Americans on the show to get the impression that there's this intense division, especially when there's the 'conservative and opposite'. But I think that what I'm sensing over here, at least in my impression, is that there's something underlying going on and people are losing faith in politics and

Dr Shanae Jefferies (03:59)

Yeah, yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:17)

I have to be so careful in how I word this. I don't want to say people are losing faith in government; I think that people don't know who they can trust at the moment. Is that the sort of feeling you're getting?

Dr Shanae Jefferies (04:23)

Yeah.

I think it's so much deeper than that. I'll speak as a Black woman, but knowing how the government and systemically we've been treated, we knew better than to have any faith or hope into the government system. So like after the election, we weren't surprised, we were disappointed, but we weren't surprised. So I think now it's coming to where other racial groups, ethnicities, other class groups are starting to feel some pressure about who they are and their freedom or their privileges in the US. And that's what's having people say, like, we're more divided than ever before. Or like, I didn't know it was this bad. We used to be a better America. And so as a Black person and as a Black woman, I don't think I know a better America. It feels like they're doing to other people what they've done to us. And still, not everybody is affected by this. So it's still like, who knows how much longer this could go on before people have had enough and are ready to do something.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:39)

I want to find a way to express a lot of love and care towards the people who are feeling like or experiencing that their needs aren't being met while also trying to be loving towards people who perhaps have been socially connected with some of these spaces that turned into something they don't expect and

Dr Shanae Jefferies (06:04)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:07)

The thing that's becoming a parallel on what you're saying is that more and more groups are wondering how their needs can be met in this era. I mean, over here, the special needs people are, that has been a flag that's getting waved these days. I'd say maybe a decade ago or, more recently, the rainbow flags were getting waved a bit more with an effort change. And what I'm saying, though, is that we've lived in a lot of change post-COVID, things like that. And do you think that everybody is wondering, okay, how can everybody have what they need? But also, I also need to ask this feeling of feeling like, I'll rephrase that, this feeling of our collective needs as a group were never met. I can see that as being manifest in perhaps the Indigenous communities over here and in other spaces. So what do you think is the next step for people who are having that experience and need to find a next way forward relating to everybody.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (07:36)

I think that those people are finding community. And so that's something really special. Under the circumstances, we wish that they were better. But people are finding community, and they're finding support in that, in places where previously they might have used their own resources or used the government. So community is coming out of this.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:00)

That's really powerful. Do you think that historically, community was a way for everybody to cope decades or centuries ago? Do you think that's something we need to return to?

Dr Shanae Jefferies (08:16)

Yeah, I think it looks different now, which is why people are like, no, let's not do it or they don't recognise it. So even like the threads community, like we're talking because I responded to a post you made on threads, you know? So we're finding community in social places, or sorry, we're finding community in, what is the word? Internet? Online.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:39)

Yeah, online.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (08:41)

Thank you. We're finding community online within different groups, and we're finding some commonalities. We still, this is what I wanted to say to your previous question. I don't know how tense it is in other nations or other countries, but it did feel particularly like a stomp in the face going to work the day after election day that we had, like the day after the presidential election day, because you know for a fact that the people around you have voted against your best interests completely, you know? And then you go to work, and we're one big happy community, and we help each other and yay, yay, yay. And it's like, we can't ignore this, you know? So even finding community within the workplace is something like, okay, now we're siloed over here because we're not the majority. Like the majority, I live in Texas, so red flag waving state very conservative. And so you find your pocket of liberals, and you're just like, I'm so glad to have found you, you know? Like it's not common that you see them in the workplace because the state is so heavily populated with conservatives in like these bigger places, these bigger cities and the smaller ones as well. You know.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:06)

I have a couple of responses to that. Firstly, I'm going to be very vague in sharing that I knew someone in politics relatively recently who didn't actually fully believe or align with some of the statements that person was making. And so I wonder if there's a sense of conformity from some of those groups that you're

Dr Shanae Jefferies (10:09)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:35)

not aligning with, it's possible. I'm wondering if a bunch of them feel like they have to toe the line everybody else is towing.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (10:46)

I think so. think it's groupthink, it's group conformity. When the people who are doing well are saying one thing, you want to be in that group. And so I think they find whatever unites them with that group, and they hold that line. It takes a lot of courage, I think, to step over the line, because the line is so bold. So yeah, I think. Yeah, I'll say that. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:13)

Absolutely, absolutely. It takes courage to do something that contradicts the standards that you're surrounded with.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (11:23)

Yeah, yeah, I can say, and this feels like, I don't know how politically deep we're going to get, but we just have the, okay, we just have the primaries in America. And that's when we pick.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:31)

Well, we'll go anyway.

What's that?

Dr Shanae Jefferies (11:40)

Who is going to be on the ballot in November? So this isn't the presidential election. It's like the state, like, who do we want in the House of Representatives? Who do we want in the Senate? Who do we want to be the governor of our state? Things like that. And so you have one person from the, no, one person from the Democratic party, one person from the Republican party. And so maybe somebody from an independent party as well. But there are like, I think this year there may have been like governor eight potential governor candidates that we had to vote for. And so whoever is on that majority is then who runs against the majority Republican governor candidate, which is the same governor that we've had for years and years. And I really hope that we change, but that's who's going to be opposing them. And so now we concentrate all of our like power, our voting power against that or with, sorry, we concentrate all of our voting power with that person who aligns with our party.

And that way it's like, it's, yeah, yeah, it's focused. Like it's what you're going for, one candidate or the other. It's not a confusion. And so now I think because of how conservative the right has been, and by, I don't just mean like conservative values. I mean, like blatant lies. Like we know that Trump has set like blatant lies, and we're sitting there fact-checking, and there's no.

There's no accountability, there's no repercussions. So things like that are making some of the people on the conservative side get just a tad bit more liberal. It's not all of them. It probably isn't the majority of them. But that is where we get to see people toeing the line like, OK, that's the last straw. We famously had an ice blizzard a few years ago, and our governor was in Mexico on vacation.

He didn't care. You know, things like that have people on the conservative side, like maybe we should see what this other guy's talking about.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (13:49)

What people need is to see signs and actions indicating that the person representing them really cares and will show up when there are crises and when they need something. This isn't just… and I think this is probably happening in a lot of countries. People don't want someone to just sit in a parliament and talk about things for them. People want someone who is going to show up when it's needed.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (14:51)

Yeah.

Yes, absolutely.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (14:58)

What do you think the next leaders need to do to show that for everybody?

Dr Shanae Jefferies (15:06)

Gosh. I personally would appreciate if they were honest.

You know, like not the, you know, we're here for citizens, and I've always believed in us, and hey, it's looking a bit bleak outside. And so we've got to get it together. Like these, these communities that you formed are great, but we need to band together as a bigger society. And so we can do these specific things that he's willing to change. It's two men. So, yeah. But the specific things that these people in power are willing to do, I think they need to say them and stand on them while also being honest. If you don't plan to unite Texas, don't say that you do. There's a lot of propaganda. There's a lot of bread-crumbing people to hopefully get their vote or to have them at least feel like they're misaligned with the other side. So if they're not going to vote for you, at least they won't vote for the other person. They're just not going to vote because they don't feel an allegiance to any side. And so I've seen that happen a few times, where people just don't turn out to the polls because they disagree with one candidate but can agree with the other side.

So I think things like that, if we're being honest, if we're calling a thing a thing and being direct about what we're going to change and how we're going to help and possibly what we may have to wait for help, you know, like we can't, we can't change everything as soon as the two years start. But to say that these are my priorities and then I want to work on this, you know, if I, if we have more space, if we have more room in the budget, we can work on these secondary things, but primarily this is what is most important and it's what actually like affects the people, the majority of the people, not just what affects you and the people who want to identify with you as a politician.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:07)

What aligns with what the majority of the people need. Do you think part of the way to even identify that collective need is to find a common thread as human beings? There must be some things that we all need regardless of where we are in the political spectrum. Or do you think that the solutions to those problems are contrasting so much because people's values are so contrasting.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (17:38)

I think it's the latter. think we're past being one America. They'll tell you that the most united the United States was on 9-11.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:40)

Sure.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (17:49)

That's when we were like, oh, America is under attack. But any other time we're fighting within ourselves. Like it's, you know, we're fighting different, we're fighting racial groups, we're fighting ableism, we're fighting sexism, like all of these, all of the isms, we are actively fighting against each other. So that was the one day that we were like, wait a minute, America has been attacked. Not my home. But after that, we immediately went back to fighting each other. So I think...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (18:17)

Instantly.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (18:20)

Yeah, it's like racism hasn't ended because 9-11 happened. You still had people with their prejudices on the campgrounds of 9-11. You know, like they need help, but they still are, they still have the values that they have. So, yeah, it's pretty, I don't mean to be so bleak about the US. There's other great things, you know? But this is, I think, this is the state of our the atmosphere, like the atmosphere that the government has created and has just kind of been propelled. And we know that there is fault within us for propelling the system, but not all of us. Didn't all do this. So it's like we're suffering because other people have voted this way.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:05)

Juicy question, and I really hope I'm not going to frustrate too many people in politics and media who might notice we're having this conversation. But I'm so curious, do you think that other bureaucracies or other institutions are supporting and fuelling what's going on with these government issues? The obvious one to list is

Dr Shanae Jefferies (19:09)

No.

Melanie Wilson (19:33)

The media, or perhaps there are some social groups. know in a few countries there'll be a social group that's kind of nudging the government behind the scenes. Do you think that's going on?

Dr Shanae Jefferies (19:44)

Absolutely. There's no doubt. They come out and say that directly. So, most recently, is the story how I heard it or how I read it. Claude AI and another AI company were contacted to be part of President Trump's backing. He wanted their money to fuel what he's doing now.

And so notably, this is why we know about it. They said, no, no, we won't. We don't agree with what you're doing. We don't want to stand behind it. We don't want to be aligned with it at all. So ChatGPT comes and says, wait, we've got money. What do you need us to do?

And so now we're seeing it's an uptick, but there's like a boycott or removal from ChatGPT to these other companies that are either less aligned or not aligned with the current administration. So it's up. Yeah, they're not hiding it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (20:49)

Okay, that is giant. Because whichever side of politics we are on, we have that question of do we want the AI companies that we are, frankly, at this point, depending on for so much of our everyday life, do we want them financially contributing to political efforts and potential political outcomes?

Dr Shanae Jefferies (21:08)

Yes.

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:17)

That's a giant question. And it also shows this is where someone in politics knew there would be money, and this is where someone was turning. There are lots of places to find money, and this is where they were looking for funds. That is giant. And the understanding I have of using AI is that

Dr Shanae Jefferies (21:26)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:43)

If you have been using GPT for quite a while, it will have an understanding of this context within it of the individual of you, of me, and what we need, our tendencies, our habits. And then a lot of people are feeling like they are starting from scratch with Claude and others. And so we need to then rebuild.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (21:58)

Nope.

Yeah, I, so this is what I did personally. I asked Chat, what does another AI bot need to know about me to continue our conversations? And he made a list, you know, there were bullet points, there were things I like, things I don't like. And so you upload that file to Claude or whoever else. And now it's in there, you know, it's in there.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (22:20)

Nice.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (22:33)

And so, like creating GPTs like the different bots within ChatGPT, like you would drop a file for like background knowledge, so I assume helping that you can do the same thing with quad where, like, if you drop the file that the other chat made It will continue those conversations. I don't know that everything is transferred, you know, but it has a basic running knowledge of who you are, what you do, how your tendencies are, what you're searching, why you're searching, all of that.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:07)

We have so much trust in those AI platforms even now. And I don't know if we are always thinking about how much information we are giving to those companies.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (23:12)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, no, no. At this point, I think that there have been so many data breaches that it just, at this point, I should just give you my information, you know? Because, yeah, like, who are we kidding? You get it from different companies that collect my data. So let me just tell you it all so you can help me in the best way possible. It's kind of the approach that some people are taking, me being.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:32)

Just hand it over.

That's really interesting because a few years ago, I was doing some writing when I was hired by a company, I was doing some writing about cybersecurity, and there were so many efforts to try to prevent breaches, and it's good to prevent things. Sure. I mean, you want to make yourself safe, just like you're going to lock a door or whatever, but it feels like there are so many ways for this to happen. I saw some conversations that other people had online about how someone can hack your phone, and you wouldn't even realise. So it seems like the technology is at the point where we don't expect privacy.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (24:23)

Mm-hmm.

Right. It's a risk that you know you have to take. And we also have companies that capitalize off that. You know, like, if your information is somehow hacked, if you pay our subscription each month or each year, we're going to tell you immediately, and we'll help you fight it. You know, everywhere somebody has made like a capitalistic ploy. So, yeah, it's I don't know that we assume that our information is private anymore.

Yeah. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:01)

Pretty much the moment you email someone, even, I wonder, even having audio calls, sometimes Facebook Messenger, right? You can call someone on Messenger, and I don't really know. I'm just guessing I don't know how much privacy is in that because it is going through an app.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (25:10)

Yeah.

Yeah. And also this, I'm pretty sure Facebook backs the current administration. Like they are funding the current administration. And so again, we're giving our input here. Like, there's no other way for us to protect it. I think within reasonable thought. So either you are not on the internet at all, or you know that your data, your information, your tendencies, whatever you value, wherever you go to work, all of that is free information so that they can market to you. But also so that something else might happen. We don't know what, but I don't know what else they would be using information for. They say it's for marketing, but you have a lot of information on us. You know, it can't all be marketing. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:18)

I knew someone, and I'll be so vague here, I knew someone in government who, many years ago, said to me that these days people make their personal information publicly available anyway. It's not even a difficult task to find personal info. Look at how much we put on our public profiles readily available.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (26:48)

Right.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:49)

Someone actually asked me, do I think that someone could have been, now, of course this wasn't happening, but someone asked me if someone could have been stalking me through my social media. And I said, well, I don't typically tell social media, this is the precise location I'm in right now. Do you remember the days when we would check into a location on Facebook? I'm at this cafe right now. I don't think we all think that's a good idea anymore.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (27:08)

Okay.

I thought that was so weird. You know, when it's like, these seven people have been to this airport before. And you're like, why would you? You wouldn't just say you're going on a vacation. Like, why would you check into the airport? Do we need to know if something happened? We do. Do y'all have the alerts of like, if a natural disaster just happened, it'll alert the social circle of that person that you're marked safe from that natural disaster?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:46)

I got the understanding that there's a button people can click if they want to. I mean, look, the computers and the apps privately know all of this stuff because the location tracking is probably constant. But in terms of what someone can publicly Google, that's a bit different.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (28:04)

Yeah. I think, so I try not to do this, but even like posting like photos of where you are, it's gotten to the point where a lot of influencers do not post until they are in another location, you know, just so that nobody is tracking them, because stalking is prone to happen for people like they, they become obsessed, they become super fans. And so they're looking for you now in real life, because they think that they know you.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:32)

I actually take a bit of comfort in doing the opposite. I might say, people are hanging out at this place. I just want to be a bit quiet somewhere else. And so I know everybody's over there. I'll go over here to just have some peace. No, no, but I mean, other people do. And look, actually, a friend said to me that there's no privacy in life anyway. So what difference does it make?

Dr Shanae Jefferies (28:48)

Do you post it?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (29:02)

I mean, you don't have to be very precise. No, I don't. It's so funny. I'm saying this in a recording. Okay. I don't normally say precisely where I am. It got to the point where some people close to me wondered which area I'm in. I would say city, but some areas are smaller than that. But I mean, the world doesn't need to know everything about you.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (29:35)

Yeah, what are they gonna do with that information? You know, like, I don't know. Some people, I won't say that stalking doesn't happen, I guess. But yeah, I just think you put the things out there in hopes that people will not go searching for it because it's so readily available. So yeah, I think.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:01)

Oh, and it's worth comforting ourselves, right? And we do not need to get paranoid. And this is where perhaps your expertise and our personal experience can be drawn upon to say, okay, we're not going to get paranoid. I had a moment of wondering, oh, why are some people so fussed over what I'm putting online, blah, blah, blah. And I needed to pull myself in and say, people are thinking about themselves. And I think when there's

Dr Shanae Jefferies (30:24)

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (30:31)

That precaution of don't give the opportunity for something silly to happen, that's more like just a precaution. Like, don't leave your phone unattended in a public park, whatever. You don't do something silly. But we have to keep in mind, and just let me know if you agree, most people are in their own worlds.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (30:46)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, they are. I've been doing a lot of self-development and stuff, and so that's one of the things - nobody's thinking about you. They're not. I read The Courage to Be Disliked, and that book game changer. But yeah, was like, nobody's thinking about you. They're not. When you, so like, I'll say.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:05)

Yes!

Dr Shanae Jefferies (31:20)

I guess the stereotype is that girls do this more. I don't know about guys doing it, but you know how, like some girls will take a picture and they look at it and they immediately go to their flaws. Like, can you see that? Like my hair is out of place, or you know, stuff like that. And so we think, like, my God, that's an awful picture. Everybody's going to notice everybody else is looking for themselves in that picture if they were there, you know?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (31:35)

Yes.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (31:45)

Like they're not looking at you specifically. They're looking at who else was in the group. Where is my face? Because the other girls in the group are going to say, my God, my hair. My God, my belly. My God, my shirt, something. And so it's just like we're not; nobody is focused on you. And once you get past that, it makes it a little easier to go about the world because you know that they're focused on themselves. They're not looking at what you're doing or what you're not doing. So I think it's a good and a bad, you know, because they're not conscious, but also, you're not conscious of my flaws, and that's what I appreciate.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:20)

I totally agree, and we all do it. We all have something we feel self-conscious of. My thing lately was that I don't like the shape of my arms, even though I dropped the weight, the pounds, kilos, whatever you're into, and yet my arms are just not what I want them to be. And then, and the tummy as well, but

Dr Shanae Jefferies (32:28)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (32:48)

Everybody will have something, and I think a lot of women can relate to that, but I think a lot of men probably can relate to that as well. There's an ideal they want to look like, and the reassurance. I hope you've had this experience as well, that normally people accept you and actually like how unique you are, a lot more than we realise.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (32:50)

Yeah.

Yeah, that's I'll take a picture, and I'll be like, my God, delete that. And they're like, no, you look stunning. And it's just like my collar was turned up here, you know, like it's one little thing. I'm like, I throw the picture away, and they're like, no, this is we all look great. Let's keep this one. So in group settings, of course. But yeah, even like.

And I hope I'm not taking this off on a tangent. But even doing selfies and things like that, women, I guess, are more open about how they attack themselves when they see that picture. Not to say that men don't also have their flaws that they look at. It's just not, what's the word? It's not the common etiquette for men to say, my gosh, look at my beard. my, look at my hairline. Look at blah, blah. Like they just say it, they acknowledge it, and they keep going. And I think it's another part of everybody not paying attention to you. They're paying attention to themselves. So yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (34:17)

Interesting.

I wonder, maybe the men are not thinking about it as much. Maybe they are not talking about it as much. Or I think women have been a collective support group for each other for a long time because a lot of us women grew up with the magazines, the TV advertisements, and then it's going to be safe to assume that in some forms, the ideal images on social media probably were growing, possibly more for us at some point than for men. I know that's a bit of a generalisation, but you know, I think that it had to be females taking up the filtering apps, all of those things. And, but either way, I think because a lot of us grew up with, especially the nineties, thin ideal things like that, we've had to emotionally cope with that inner battle for quite a while. I mean, my filter that I have is I was actually too thin in my early teens, and I felt, I felt personally embarrassed because there was that stereotype that you had to have an eating disorder if you were thin, and then I was too big, going too far in the other direction. And do you think women always either feel too thin, too big. Do you think we don't know how to just be satisfied with how we are?

Dr Shanae Jefferies (35:56)

I think so, we're socialised this way. So this is the sociology coming back into it. So when we are young children, girls or females tend to be socialised in groups. Like you are looking for your community friend group. On the other hand, males or boys, they are socialised to like competition. know, like, I'm better at this than you. Or girls are like, let's play in a collective group. You know, let's hold hands. And guys are like, no holding hands, and I'm racing you, and I'm going to beat you. So I think like the socialisation of how we grow up, of course, that changes us and our projections of like how we see ourselves in our identity as we grow up and as we're adults. But also, I think that we see a lot more focus on like women and their body weight or their appearance in the media. And so that also socialises us. Like you said, like, if you're too thin, people are going to assume that I have an eating disorder or maybe that I don't have enough money at home or something like that. And you're just like, no, so I have to self-correct so that people don't think this thing about me. And again, people aren't thinking about you; they're thinking about themselves. I know it's a bit different in like high school and stuff, but once you get to adulthood, people are thinking about themselves. The things that we were socialised to care about in high school are no longer concepts for us. And you just, that's that transition period to move through it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (37:22)

That's the reassurance for everybody. That's what we can come back to for a lot of this, partly because we are simply thinking about ourselves, because that's how we are wired. And also, people are probably too busy as well to fuss over everybody else.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (37:38)

Yes, yes, that's something I remind myself of. Like, even when I'm busy and just like straight shot to where I'm going and where I'm going and where I'm going, I'll see other people, and I'll think like, my gosh, what a cute skirt.

And so I'll tell the lady, you know, and that like, I love when people do that to me because a compliment. Thank you so much. But also, you'll see people who are just as busy in their day. And it reminds me like there are people who have young children that need to go to the store and come back, you know, like it's not, it's not about me trying to make my way through Costco with the least amount of attention or conversation. There are also people here who had to bring their children because maybe they could not put them in childcare or something, or like maybe they are out of work, and so they are now babysitting. You know, like there's so many other factors in life that we even see that helps us be like that person is not worried about me, and so as we apply that to other people, we're more like we know that people are self-absorbed. We may try ourselves not to be as self-absorbed, but still we know that nobody is going around looking like, ⁓ my gosh, Melanie, what are you wearing today? I've been waiting for this all morning. You know, like nobody's saying that. It's not a problem.

So, we do have other problems, of course, but it's really about the identity that you have within yourself and how you've evolved that with the different roles and the different statuses that you've held. And you become into the person that you are right now, because that person might be different tomorrow based on the circumstances of today.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (39:22)

This is leading perfectly to the question I was keen to ask, which is how we can use that mindset to then connect more with communities online and offline. I'm asking that because the thing I'm inspired by within what you are saying is to use the podcast as an example. I learned to think about the individual who is coming onto the show and it's not just, I think early on I just thought, okay, this person has this listed on their LinkedIn, but the context that I need to keep in mind and I say that, gosh, I had a four shot coffee before this, so I'll catch a breath, but the thing that I need to keep in mind is someone might have set aside an hour within a really busy day. Someone needs to get to their kids after, or a client might be waiting, or someone could have had a really long day, and it's their dinner time, and they're just so keen to eat afterwards. And that's one of the things I love about speaking, and it really translates after having talked to in-person audiences. It's not just what do I want people to hear; it's okay, where is their mindset, and what do they need in this moment, along with beyond today, and I think that communities would evolve so much if everybody could have that mindset, whether they are at a microphone or just having a chat within a group. Do you think so?

Dr Shanae Jefferies (40:53)

Mm-hmm.

I believe so, yeah. I think again, like the way that we're building community, I love threads for that.

And it's mostly honesty, you know, like that's what you don't have to tear people down. You don't have to do all the things. It's just like, hey, I just had this experience. Isn't this funny? And you add a gift, you add whatever, you add a picture, and now we're all cackling, and we have 7.6K likes, you know? Like that's, it's not a personal attack on anybody. It's a reflection of what you wanted to share with the world, and you leave it there.

Of course, they're all trolls and people who just want to be negative online, but a lot of what I've seen, and again, I really enjoy threads these days, is that they don't pay it any mind. Like they don't.

You now have like a trolling comment, and it has zero likes and zero comments. So nobody's saying, hey, you, no, that's not right. You have to do blah, blah. We can govern ourselves. I don't need to govern you. You're not actually part of my community. So it's not a problem, you know? And so I think that's the thing with social media because it seems like other platforms, i.e. were...

It was great at the beginning, you know, like it was a great conversation starter. We were building community with people across the world. And then it got to be, this is about likes and comments and clicks and followers. And so let me just say the most absurd thing that I can think of, so that people like it or they interact because they know that it's wrong or against it. And so.

You know, there's two sides to every coin. So I don't know that we'll fix something without having a major problem on the other side. But that part of community of being able to share your actual day-to-day interactions, just what you feel, what your perspective is on it and leave it there. It's not bashing somebody else. You're not flowering it up. You're telling the truth, your truth, and it may be hilarious. And so we want to laugh.

It's a shared thought there, yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (43:20)

What I've seen is we found a current platform, and I think the ideal platform or the option is different in any other moment, but we found a platform for human storytelling. And there was probably a moment when Twitter was a space to say this happened in this moment, and then that happened in that moment, and it could have evolved into see this story on this link, whatever, but we also know that Twitter got filled, or at least infiltrated with bots, fake profiles, some sort of automated, I don't understand all of the tech, I like to be, look, I grew up around tech a little bit, a tiny bit, and I like to be the one who simplifies it to say, okay, something automated was going on, to be able to get a robot to say things or write things on Twitter. So it wasn't even all human. It's, I think it's a mix, let me know if you agree. think it's a mix of the robots and the humans who are trying to stir things up too much, and even Substack. had issues with Substack. So I think this is where your expertise comes in. It seems like the conflict just eventually comes into whichever space, and then people end up wondering, okay, where can I go to just have some common thread? Pardon the pun. We want that common thread because I've been talking with people from any countries, like what I was saying to you before we recorded, a lot of my guests are from anywhere and

Dr Shanae Jefferies (45:01)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (45:13)

We all have very similar experiences, needs, and that's why years ago I was able to even connect in person.

Years ago, years ago, I was able to connect socially with people from seriously polar opposite ends of the political spectrum, which is controversial and confusing to some and comforting to others because I just saw we all have different ideas of what we need or not, we all have the same core needs and different ways that we think that can be addressed like what we said earlier in our conversation. We all want to feel seen, we all want to make sure we can put food on the table, we all want to feel connected with human beings, all of those things. But we have different ideas about how that can happen, or even the word freedom gets interpreted in so many different ways these days. So the thing that's going on in threads is we're just all at the moment finding people who want to tell a story without judging, and I never want to be married to a platform, though. I want to emphasise that. Never marry a platform. Do you agree?

Dr Shanae Jefferies (46:39)

Yeah.

Threads has a spot in my heart right now. Like it's my go-to social media app because my TikTok, I think it got like bot-heavy. Like I posted a video of me in South Africa, and then it was like, my gosh, you're in South Africa. We love you. And then it was like, go back home. Why are you here? Yeah. Go back home. When Do You Leave was one of the...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (46:59)

What? Seriously, go back home? What? I don't even understand what happened.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (47:08)

One of the responses. So yeah, it's just like, I don't know if that's a person. I don't know if that's a bot, but that it breathes hate because now there are people like, she said that she was leaving on this day. You can't read, or you can't listen. And now we're bickering back and forth, you know? So it's that one seed of negativity that kind of blossoms even in a wave of positivity. So

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (47:22)

My god!

Dr Shanae Jefferies (47:36)

Yeah, I think that I would agree. It is it's funny how things are evolving because of course they're made to evolve, but we resist change so much. So the way that Facebook evolved to Instagram evolved into Twitter evolved into what was in the middle of that.

I think we have Blue Sky for a second, and Threads and Spill and all these other platforms. It's people searching for community. And unfortunately, sometimes that community that they're looking for can be hate. And sometimes the community that some people find themselves in are program bots. It's something that you would run into. But I'm sorry, I think I'm rambling. What was your question?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:23)

No, no,

I think the tangents take us to the road less travelled.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (48:29)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (48:31)

And the bots, look, I think AI is super useful when, for example, you want to buy something, and you're just stuck with a step in the process, whatever, some of those things, the AI is handy for that, but people still want human interaction. And I know that the online platforms have been a way to find people, but the live human conversations are, I think, more valuable than ever, and it's awesome chatting with people online. It's great knowing, okay, this is so real, and I think one of the things that can make us more human is our unpredictability. AI, from what I understand, relies on predicting based on a past thing. However, I do believe personally I think that in person community matters as well. What you're saying is people are finding an online, we're wanting to find community online. So do you agree we need a way to essentially maintain the humanity and the peace?

Dr Shanae Jefferies (49:41)

Mm-hmm.

I do, and I think that this is something that we, I'll say we as in whatever conscious thread space of America that I am in that shares it. If the Wi-Fi gets cut off, we don't know our neighbours. We don't know people in the city. We don't know how to get around. We don't know a lot of stuff that could save our lives. And so that...

Reliance is scary because again, if we and we're I don't know if we're on the brink of war, if we're actually in war, but in that case, that would be a… that's a great tactic. know, the people we can't mobilise, we can't stand against, we don't do these things because we sit in our households, and we've created such communities, beautiful communities online, but that lessens the social interaction that we have human to human. I'm reading this book called The Five. Gosh, now I forgot it.

It's something about the five wealths, the five sources of wealths or something like that. And social wealth is one of them. And it says that someone who does not have that social richness with like at least a few people that they can get deep with, they're going to be void of joy because that's something that brings you actual past happiness. You know that this person knows you, and you know where to find that person, and you know that they care about you. And so that intent, or that yeah, that intention of making that connection and keeping that connection is kind of what makes your days go by. It's what brings you what is the word?

Purpose. It's part of what brings you purpose. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (51:46)

Yes. And survival by the sounds.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (51:50)

Yes, yeah, we you need that interaction. Those who we talk about in sociology, we talk about like socialisation and like nature and nurture. And then we talk about people that have grown up feral. And so it's just like the ways that they come back, or if they want to come back to the community. But they are missing that thing. In a lot of cases, the children or the people who have grown up feral have likened themselves or put themselves into another animal group. So even outside of the context of humanity, most animals grow up in a pack, or they have a pack and know about it. And so we see that these feral humans, I don't know if there's a better or more appropriate way to say that, but if it is just, that's what I meant.

They are looking for some sort of community, even if it's not human. You'll see people who may live alone, but they'll have a bunch of cats, they'll have a bunch of dogs, they have animals. That's what gives them purpose. They now have something to feed, something to play with, all of these things that you need social interaction for. So they find it in other places.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:05)

are joining so much because we all disconnected from human interaction in COVID. I still walk around and see a few signs. I think around the transport, somewhere there were a few signs saying, keep as much distance from other people as possible. A sign is telling me that there is no reason for me to keep as much distance from other people as possible. That's the opposite of what we evolved to do. And if you are saying that people look for something else to connect with when they didn't or can't connect with humans, I would say the thing we gravitate to is the tech.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (53:58)

Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (53:58)

And

It's a tool, but it's not a person.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (54:02)

It's not a person, and people they have. There are people who do treat it like a person. There are people who want to get married to their GPT bot and things like that. So they really like again, I think it's been this is something I notice where some questions that I might have, like asked a friend for advice. I now type into GPT, and I'm like, hey, what do you think about this? And so.

Theoretically, we are asking the joint cloud of what has been put into AI, like the human processes and the human, all of that components and logic that humans have put into AI. Theoretically, we're asking a bunch of people, what is the average opinion? But now we've forgotten to ask.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (54:52)

Yes.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (54:56)

The average person. You know, like we don't ask the person next to us that we need help. We put into chat, what are the steps to do? And it creates like an individuality that is just you and tech alone. It's like I can conquer the world with tech because it answers all my questions. It does everything that I need it to do. So I don't need people. And even like the automation and like grocery stores and things like that, we lose a lot of that social interaction and connection. And that's what gets people out of bed in the morning.

If you see somebody like going through the transition of retirement and they lose their title, they lose their status, they tend to retreat back to a silo. know, like they whatever job they had each day to go into or even if they had it online, you have people that you have to talk to, you know, like you, you say hello to your coworker, you go get coffee, you warm up your breakfast, you all of that is points for social connection that they now do not have access to anymore. And so in situations like that, you see them retreat into themselves. And for a lot of us, we saw other people doing that with COVID. If you don't have a reason to speak to people, if it's not customary to greet people anymore, we see less and less interactions, and we get less and less conversation.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (56:21)

I saw that in such a profound way during the pandemic, it had a clear impact on young people who didn't really understand what was happening or how long it would go on. And they couldn't understand this social disconnection, getting away from the people who had provided a tribe for them. But now in this moment, I would say there are efficiencies. If you are really in a hurry, you know, I know there are benefits to the quick way to go shopping, but the anecdote I can give about this morning is I went to buy some oranges very quickly at the grocery store before this recording. And I was mentally adjusting to the sudden 8 a.m. start.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (56:57)

Right. Yeah.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (57:18)

And by the way, I love having a great morning where I can talk to someone, but I said to the person at the register, 8 am start. And that person said something like, that's not a great start to the day. And I realised it was my attitude. And it was that conversation with someone just selling oranges to me. I think leadership and therapy can come from any space because after hearing that interpretation from that person, I said, oh no, I can have joy for the opportunity to have this 8 am start! It was a real train as I was buying fruit.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (57:50)

You got an early start.

Yes, yes. And I don't know if Chat [GPT] is going to tell you that, you know? But that is the thing. That person also had an early start to their morning. And instead of being like, crap, I'm here, they're like, productivity, I have the rest of my day to do what I need to do. You know, it's that human perspective that changes things and don't get me wrong, chat can be very encouraging, technology can be very encouraging when it's talking back to you, but to know that somebody else had that impact on your day is also helpful to them.

They saw your attitude, they saw your perspective change, and they know that they've said something that landed. So it's a two-fold straight. Chat does not care that you thought they had a good idea.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (58:44)

I feel so grateful that I did grow up with people who saw the very early evolution of computers in some form. And I learned this simple logic that a computer will give you something based on what you put into it. And so, I have that interpretation of AI. I can tell you AI has been great for making the post-production of this podcast go a lot faster, and it's easier.

AI can help us to create things. The human connection is something that can't be replicated, or it's something that we evolved to need, and computers can be a tool. We are lucky that the computers can now draw upon the collective consciousness. Like what you were saying, it's referencing a collective, but that's different to two individuals having the trust. I think part of it is the trust because it's like what you were saying before about how if the WIFI went down, who would be there for you?

Dr Shanae Jefferies (1:00:39)

Yeah, yeah. If we do not have that internet or something and it's so. What is the word? It's so…

It's so easily destroyed. You know, like it's so vulnerable. That's the word. Wi-Fi and our connection to technology it makes us so vulnerable.

And so, yes, if we don't, we're not prioritising the human connection because the technology connection is so much easier to foster. I say anything to the computer, it gives me its response back. There's no emotion tied in. If I give emotions to the AI, the AI knows to say, there, there, it's gonna be all right and tell me whatever the next solution is. But you cannot hug AI human connection, human touch, some sort of body to body connection is necessary for the dopamine in our brain. Like you need it to be a happy human being. And so, cutting that out, again, there are good reasons for it, but there are reasons against it. And I think that we can cohesively use AI and like human and social networks and interactions.

We just have to be intentional about it. Like, we need to let people know that this is why you still need human interaction, not to force it on them so that they resist, but to say that this is helpful for you and me. Just, you know, it's mutually beneficial.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:02:19)

You can have both. I follow some people online, and they were using AI and other tech to distribute their ideas to thousands or millions of people. I was just one of the viewers, but then seeing those people in person locally, the word energy was used. There was an energy. It was just totally different.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (1:02:21)

You can't have them.

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:02:47)

So even for a moment having that, it made a difference. But the thing I was keen to ask you about is, I'm wondering if part of the solution as we wind up is, I know, I feel like some of these needs to go through three hours. But I'm wondering, do you think we do need to think about other people more? And do you think that cultural change is possible.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (1:03:19)

Absolutely, we should think about other people more because again, we're all focused on ourselves, and Culture has no choice but to change. It has to change. So we see the evolution We see the metamorphosis, whether we want to see it coming or not. There were people who fought tech tooth and nail, you know. There were people who didn't want to use a typewriter because hand script would go away, and now people's handwriting is either deteriorating or obsolete because we all use computers. Yes, things have changed, and we've lost certain things, but we've also gained other things. So that change is inevitable. No matter how you fight it, it just puts you on the later side of coming into that change. And so I think that is, I don't know that we can label it good or bad. I think it's just a thing. It's a process that has to happen; fighting it only delays the inevitable, and embracing it gives you an advantage. You know, did that answer your question?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:04:27)

Kind of. I was thinking more about how we've been in an individualistic society, and we just, like we were saying before, we need to connect with community, and that means looking beyond ourselves, surely. Do you think so?

Dr Shanae Jefferies (1:04:32)

Yeah.

Say the last part you said that we something ourselves.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:04:45)

I'll slow down. It's early. So I'm wondering if since we both know that we need to connect with community, do you think we need to remind ourselves to think beyond our personal individual selves and remind ourselves to think about other people more?

Dr Shanae Jefferies (1:04:48)

Thank

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely. I think that I don't know if we could sum it up, and so that's the problem, but I think that is a huge majority of the problem that we have in our different nations and as a people in general. We're thinking a lot about ourselves. And then there's that I can't believe I forgot it. There is a word, is it? My gosh.

Words are escaping me, and it's not even 8 a.m. for me. There's something that means sameness. There's a word that means sameness. And so...

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:05:40)

The common thread. So basically the things we all have in common.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (1:05:49)

Not that, I'm thinking of groups of people tend to populate around people who are very similar to them. Yeah. Yeah. So we have, we'll have these pockets of community, and they'll just, yeah, yeah, you're talking to yourself. That's who you're around.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:05:57)

Right, yes, we do.

Segmented and you know what the marketing, sorry to dive, in the marketing textbooks taught us, appeal to this segment, that segment it was well segmented separately.

Dr. Shanae (1:06:16)

Yep.

Yeah, as if we don't have similar needs. Yeah. Yeah. If you phrase it this way, then this group is going to pay attention. And of course, it spreads within that group because one person has it. They tell their friends who have the similar problem as them. But this group over here has the same problem. They just call it something different. And now they'll never know the solution because these groups don't talk. So yeah, I do get a bit gung ho in there and yeah. So.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:06:48)

Winding up, what is one key lesson that you think everybody needs to learn and act on so we can have a more peaceful future?

Dr Shanae Jefferies (1:07:07)

Just one thing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:07:08)

Or can make it three if needed. I normally ask three.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (1:07:11)

Okay, one thing is what stuck for me, and I know there's a lot of good points from the book, so I don't want to undersell it, but I did. I just finished, maybe like a week or two ago, The Courage to be Disliked, and it had such an impact on me. Focus on your own task.

I think is the thing. Like we get to the point, and this may sound like hypocritical, but we get to the point where we start trying to police other people's lives, that we lose what's going on in our own.

So you're losing the script on reality because this person doesn't do something the same way that you did it. And so if you focus on your own task, you'll know that you need human connection. You need food, water, shelter, clothing, you know, like these are your basic needs. And so if you work on that, you create a community within itself. You're going to have to talk to the person at the grocery store. And it's not your problem to complain or sorry, it's not your task to complain about other things or to be hateful for other people. You focus on what you're doing. You have that human interaction with somebody else without judgment because it does not matter. It's not your task. And you keep it moving. So we think at some points we're forced to be in community. But also, some points you don't need community. We do not need a mob of hatred. We don't. We don't. So it just.

Sometimes those are the ones that are quickest to form. But also, I think...

That so that one is like coupled in with the let them theory. Let them do whatever they're going to do, and let me focus on. Yes, yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:08:58)

Praise from Mill Robbins,

Dr Shanae Jefferies (1:09:01)

Yes, let them do what they're going to do and let me focus on what I'm going to do. Let me focus on what's important for me. So I think that if we, if everyone were to focus on their own task and solving those problems, we would probably get a lot further in a society because we have people jumping in this issue over here while they're leaving this issue to not…

So yeah, think that that's one big thing. I'll do two. I think that the other thing that we...

No, I think it sums it up in that one. Everything I have to say is in that, like you focus individually, you focus on healing yourself, and that makes for a better society because then you are able to interact with other people without bringing out hatred or derogatory remarks or anything like that. Once you are healed within yourself, you know you can go this far, and then you don't need to stretch anymore, and that gives the next person room to do their job so that you're not trying to do both.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:10:08)

Amazing. Shanae, thank you so much for bantering, for talking, and I think we've had a great chat.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (1:10:12)

Yes!

I've loved it. Yeah. Yeah. This has been great for me. Thank you for having me as a guest. This is amazing. Also, sorry about that 8 a.m. call time.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:10:27)

I think this was the best way to start a Saturday.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (1:10:31)

Awesome! And it's a, are you off on the weekends? Do you do, do y'all do?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:10:35)

This is the only one for this weekend.

Dr Shanae Jefferies (1:10:39)

Okay, well, yeah, enjoy the rest of your weekend.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (1:10:42)

Yes, you too!

content type

Interview

primary goal

Educational

summary

In this insightful interview, Kym shares her unique approach to peak performance, blending kinesiology, yoga, and emotional mastery to help wellness professionals and female golfers overcome mental roadblocks. She discusses her personal journey through grief, her focus on holistic wellness, and practical strategies for managing emotions, routines, and self-care.

keywords

peak performance, kinesiology, yoga, emotional mastery, wellness, golf, self-care, resilience, gratitude, mental health

key topics

Kym's background in sports kinesiology and energy medicine The role of movement, yoga, and emotional mastery in performance Personal journey through grief and using golf as a structure for life Strategies for managing emotions, discomfort, and balance The importance of routines, gratitude, and play in well-being

guest name

Kym Coco

key frameworks

Hand Model of Wellness Energy Medicine Principles Mind-Body Connection Strategies

action items

Practice micro breaks and pauses during the day Start a gratitude journal and reflect nightly Try different styles of yoga to find what suits you best Use visualization and reprogramming techniques for emotional balance

Titles

Unlocking Peak Performance: The Power of Movement and Mindset How Yoga and Kinesiology Transform Wellness and Golf

sound bites

"Beliefs can make us feel safe or unsafe." "Gratitude puts on the lens of appreciation." "We are more powerful than we think."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Peak Performance Coaching 02:05 The Journey into Golf and Personal Transformation 04:59 Navigating Grief and Finding Purpose 08:48 Community Connection After Loss 10:10 Emotional Navigation in Coaching 13:59 Holistic Approach to Wellness 17:02 The Quest for Balance in Life 22:01 The Importance of Nature and Movement 22:44 Yoga: A Lifelong Practice and Teaching Journey 25:54 Layers of Yoga: Beyond Movement 29:34 Embracing Discomfort: Lessons from the Mat 35:42 Miracles and Transformation: A Personal Journey 38:50 Caregiving: The Gift of Presence 48:10 Energy Awareness: Adapting to Life's Cycles 53:30 Empowerment and Play: Keys to a Fulfilling Life

resources

Kym's Book: Miracle on the Mountainside - https://www.amazon.com/Miracle-Mountainside-Kym-Coco/dp/XXXXXX Energy Medicine Resources - https://www.energymedicine.com Yoga Resources and Sequences - https://www.yogaresources.com

guest links

Website - https://www.kymcoco.com Twitter - https://twitter.com/kymcoco LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/kymcoco

Listen to the entire conversation at The Motivate Collective Podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, or The Motivate Collective website.

Join as a member now to receive benefits and exclusive offers for upcoming events.

https://www.motivatecollective.com/join

-

content type

Interview

primary goal

Educational

summary

Jesse Cruz shares his inspiring journey from military service to personal growth, faith, and impactful storytelling. Discover how faith, self-awareness, and strategic networking can transform your life and career.

keywords

personal development, storytelling, faith, military, growth, leadership, motivation, self-awareness, coaching, success

key topics

Jesse Cruz's military experience and lessons learned The role of faith in personal transformation Strategies for effective storytelling and personal branding The importance of community, mentorship, and continuous learning

guest name

Jesse Cruz

key frameworks

Gift of Life Framework Storytelling for Impact

action items

Hire a coach to refine your storytelling skills Share your story from a place of healing Invest daily in personal growth and faith

Titles

From Military to Mastering Your Story: Jesse Cruz's Journey to Impact Unlocking Your Gift: Lessons from Jesse Cruz on Personal Growth

sound bites

"Don't focus on what others have." "Focus on serving, not judging." "Find your people to grow and thrive."

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Jesse's Military Background 00:26 Dealing with the Challenges of Deployment 01:18 Deciding to Leave the Military for Family 01:28 Creating a New Life Through Faith and Environment 02:30 Reflections on a Year of Personal Loss and Growth 03:32 The Gift of Life and Finding Your Purpose 05:04 Transitioning to Youth Advocacy and Community Impact 05:41 Advice for Young People and Social Media Realities 06:54 Faith as a Catalyst for Change 08:20 Peace Amidst Challenges: The Power of Faith 10:05 How Faith Could Have Changed Jesse's Military Experience 11:49 Sharing Your Story for Healing and Impact 15:22 Balancing Vulnerability and Healing in Storytelling 16:57 The Importance of Inner Work and Healing 18:19 Starting Your Personal Brand with Social Media 19:57 Overcoming Fear and Serving Your Audience 21:48 Finding Your People and Growth in the Right Environment 25:01 Advice for New Military Members and Life After Service 26:18 Making a Career in Paid Speaking 27:00 Three Key Lessons for Personal and Professional Growth

...

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Transcript

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:01)

Jessie, welcome to the show.

Jesse Cruz (00:03)

Thank you for having me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:04)

You have been quite a speaker, and you have quite an experience. I saw that you worked in the military. Do you want to share anything about that first?

Jesse Cruz (00:15)

Yeah, so I joined the military in 2007, was there until 2011, and I was in the army, and I was deployed in Iraq for a year.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (00:27)

My goodness. Tell me anything about that.

Jesse Cruz (00:32)

Yeah, I mean, it was one of the scariest things of my life. I had a child that was just born, and then within 72 hours, she wouldn't see me again for like a year. So she was born, and then I left. And that was really hard for me to deal with, is leaving so soon after she was born. And then being there for a year was tough, but I couldn't wait to come home and...

So I decided when I got back home that I would get out of the military so I could be involved and be around and be in her life because being away from her for that long was not fair to her, and that's not the kind of dad I wanted to be.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (01:18)

Absolutely, a whole year. So what did you do to change your life and to create freedom after a year away?

Jesse Cruz (01:29)

Yeah, well, I mean, most importantly is I returned back home because I was stationed at Fort Hood, Texas, for a while. got back and came to New York State, where I'm from, and got involved in my faith and my church. Very important to me. Started hanging out with different people, different friends and started to surround myself with a different environment of people upon returning home so I could kind of leave behind like a wild life that I was living because I was not living maybe like a really good life at that time and I realized that I needed to do better for her and for me and so I really had to change the people I was spending time with.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (02:14)

Okay, so you were surrounding yourself with faith-based people and people who are responsible, and it sounds like it was a wild time. said, what was it about the, what happened? What can you share about the year away?

Jesse Cruz (02:30)

I mean, that year away, I was, I just felt so lost. You know, I spent so much time away from the people I cared about the most to do something I didn't fully love or have the passion to do. And so I felt like a complete, like a failure, really, because I wasn't fulfilled. This wasn't my purpose. I didn't have meaning in it, you know? And so just being there.

I was blessed with the opportunity to have some great guys I was with. I became very close with and care deeply about until this day. We're still very close. But it was a big learning time about me, about who I am and what I want out of life and what I don't want out of life, because that's also extremely important as well.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (03:23)

I'm wondering what words of wisdom do you have for people who are starting or ending a journey with that sort of work?

Jesse Cruz (03:32)

Yeah, I think it comes down to knowing how you're And until you've learned how you're uniquely gifted, you'll wander from thing to thing trying to find where you fit in this world. And so that's why it's so important to really learn about the great gift that you've been given. I like to use the metaphor of like, it's like the gift of life under a tree, everybody has a gift with their name on it, under that tree.

And some of us are too scared to go to the tree and open up the gift. Some of us are excited to open up the gift and can't wait to see what's inside. But then there's other of us who are so consumed and concerned with what everybody else got in their gifts that we get so distracted by the gift that they have, we don't get to appreciate our own. And so just what do you want to do with the gift you've been given, and don't focus on what other people have. Don't be concerned with their gift. Just be thankful that you have one and then open up that gift and then share it with as many people as humanly possible.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:45)

Right, find your thing and don't worry about what everybody else is doing.

Jesse Cruz (04:49)

Absolutely.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (04:51)

Absolutely. So you got into speaking eventually, but after the military, did you do some sort of mainstream work or what did you end up doing?

Jesse Cruz (05:04)

Yeah, so I was a youth advocate. So I was mentoring youth and families in the communities which I was from. And so I started to do that, and that was extremely rewarding. I was really making a difference. I am making an impact. I was helping kids who, you know, maybe had a lot of disadvantages in life and being there to support them along the journey. So that was a huge change of scenery for me that I'm thankful for, and being able to help the next generation in that way was a huge blessing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (05:38)

What do the young people need to know now?

Jesse Cruz (05:41)

They need to know that not everything that you see on social media is actually real. I just had this conversation with my daughter just yesterday, and I had to remind her, don't ever compare your chapter one to somebody else's chapter 20. It's easy to look at someone's highlight reel and look at all the followers that people have and all the great posts that people have, right? No one's in there really posting their losses. They're just not doing that. And so we gotta understand that, yeah, some people are going to win big, they're going to do well. They may seem further ahead than you, but you don't know what they had to go through to get to that. So my encouragement to the youth is stop comparing where you're starting to where somebody else finished. And just only comparison you need to make is the comparison with yourself. That's it.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:30)

think we all need to learn that.

Jesse Cruz (06:32)

Yeah, most definitely.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (06:33)

Definitely. Especially anyone who's trying to build a career and then seeing the end result of someone else for sure. So, sorry, how did faith play, sorry, how did faith play a part in changing?

Jesse Cruz (06:54)

Mm-hmm. Yeah well, I spent most of my life not having any and I realized that there has to be more like the emptiness that I'm feeling the depression that I'm experienced the anxiety that felt never-ending there had to be something else there had to be something greater and I had a lot of struggles a lot of addiction a lot of pain a lot of problems

And I realised that I was trying to fix it myself. And I thought that by my own willpower, I could literally just do all the fixing. But then I got to the point where I realis]ed that I can't live like this no more. And then I had a conversation with God, and I said, you know what? If you're real, I'm gonna give my life to you, and we'll see how this thing goes. And when I said that, it was like the first time I felt peace in my life. Now that doesn't mean I still don't have challenges and problems. But what I learned in that moment is that you can have peace and still have problems. I just had all the problems. But if I can learn how to have peace through a problem, that's a different level of happiness that I had never experienced before. And so faith is the number one thing in my life. It is what gets me through everything.

And it is the foundation of what I build my life, my family, and my business on.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (08:26)

It sounds like part of having faith is detaching and letting go from the pressure to put everything on our own shoulders, and you can hand things over to something else.

Jesse Cruz (08:40)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, most people and I'm included in this is. I didn't come to the faith sooner because I wanted to be in control. Because I think I know best. Because I think I have the answers. I had a serious problem with pride and ego to believe that I couldn't just figure this all out. And then eventually, I just got too tired of just trying to figure it out. I tried everything to fill the hole in my heart, and nothing worked. And only thing that was able to really give me that peace and fulfilment was God.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (09:21)

So it was letting go of the ego, partly.

Jesse Cruz (09:25)

Yeah, think that's a daily battle for all of humanity, but I think you have to die a million ego deaths to actually come out the other side of being the person you're supposed to be. I think every day is a test of the ego. And some days, I'll do well. Other days, I may fail miserably. But I just get back on the saddle again and keep going, because I know that eventually I can improve, I can make progress, I can get better.

Letting go is one of the hardest things to do, but it is also one of the most freeing.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (10:00)

Do you think that your military time would have been different if you had faith?

Jesse Cruz (10:05)

100%. I lived a wild life while I was in the military. God was not a regular part of my life at all. And that's when I was at my worst, you know, I was mentally unstable, emotionally impoverished. It was a really dark season in my life, and I didn't have any faith, and I do believe if I did have faith at that time in my life, even though it was a challenging season, I would have been able to make better decisions along the way.

I do believe I would have been able to make the best of a hard situation.

I can't go back and change it, but I can only reflect on it now. Going forward is the more a person has faith, which I believe is one of the most important decisions anyone can make, the more peace they will have. And I do believe all of us want more peace in our life. We want more freedom in our life. We want more joy in our life. And you can have those things without faith, but it's a million times harder.

So I've just decided that I wanna have those things, so they're probably gonna have faith.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (11:27)

Fair enough. So it was that much of a wild time, and you need the thing. You need it. So what's, what's your key message? Are there any other key messages you normally give to everybody aside from don't compare yourself to other people on social media? What else do people normally need to know?

Jesse Cruz (11:49)

I would say people need to know that they have a story and that story matters. I think sometimes people go through dark seasons of life, and that no one can relate, or they're very different, or they don't fit in, or their story doesn't matter. There's this like belief that no one would want to hear what you have to say. And I've been blessed with the opportunity to train hundreds of podcasts or speakers authors coaches and business owners on how to share that story effectively from stage and it's changed their life because when you share your story it gives you permission to heal and It gives permission for the people and the audience to heal and I do believe we are all just one story away from healing this world together We just got to have the courage to share our story.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (12:43)

Stories really do make a difference, and I completely agree. I think we were all conditioned to think that we have enough authority when we have reached a particular point in a career, but we all have a personal story that people can learn from. And it's amazing you're teaching that to so many people. Have you seen moments specifically when people have heard a story and had that moment of realization or that recovery.

Jesse Cruz (13:14)

I had a very dark season in my life, and I went to college, and everybody knew I had gone through a significant challenge in my life. And my professor said, Jesse, we all know what you've just gone through. Would you like to share about what's going on? And you don't have to. And then I shared what I went through.

And then he, you know, sent us off to break. And when I was walking to the bathroom, one of my classmates came up to me, and he shared something with me of a deep, dark personal secret he had kept.

And when he said it to me, I was like, wow, he doesn't even really know me that well. And for him to share so boldly with me about what he went through, I was like, wow. And I said, thank you for sharing that with me. Who else have you told? And he said, other than my wife, you're the only person that has ever known this.

It is something I've kept to myself for decades. And then he walked away. And I was just like, wow. The lesson I believe I learned in that moment is that you never know what other people are struggling with. And they just need to see another person have the courage to say out loud what they've gone through and how they're making it out the other side, how they're getting through it, how they're dealing, how they're healing, how they're coping.

And he taught me a very valuable lesson. And I think I did for him as well. I know that when he saw me share my story, it inspired him to share his with me. And so I know that we all have the capacity to share stories that transform lives.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (15:03)

We really do. And that's totally aligned. I totally agree that you never know what someone is experiencing. So this is an important question for speakers, and it, or anyone considering sharing something: where do people draw the line? Because people sometimes want to share something, but they can't share everything. How do you encourage people? How do you encourage people to say just anything or find the bit of the story that's going to help others without feeling maybe more vulnerable than what they can handle?

Jesse Cruz (15:33)

Thank you.

Yeah, and there's a fine line in that, and I remember before one of our events before when I was training some of the speakers They had a similar question. He was like Jesse like I've gone through so many traumatic things, and I just know that if I go to share that on stage, I'm gonna be an emotional wreck. I'm gonna be up there crying. Should I do that? And I said well You don't want to start trauma dumping on people and just sharing all your trauma on stage because then it becomes all about you. Now there is a way to share your story about your life that doesn't make it about you. You always want to connect your story, the pain of your story, to the audience's pain as well. And so my encouragement to people who are debating or they're hesitant to share their story is that you want to share your story from a place of your healing, not from a place of your woundedness.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (16:41)

That's the key there. Talk from your healing, not your wounds.

So does that mean it's crucial for people to make sure they are working on themselves and trying to heal themselves as they pursue storytelling?

Jesse Cruz (16:57)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. You gotta do the inner work, the daily process of Dealing with what you've gone through, and that doesn't mean that you still don't have rough days and painful moments. That's okay But it's like how do I get up on this stage whether that's a physical stage or a virtual stage and how do I Share a story in a way that brings hope and healing to the world That means you have to be focused on the hope and healing from your life that you've dealt with that that you've cope with that that you learn from that. I tell people you gotta have a coach, hire yourself a coach. Whether someone hires me or they hire somebody else, just hire someone who can help you process some of the things that you've gone through, and that will help the person feel equipped and competent enough to share their story on stage.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (17:53)

Get some help for sure. Get some help. I'm wondering now, I'm wondering what advice do you normally give to people who are forming a bit of a personal brand that would be tied in with their story? Because it seems like you have a bit of a personal brand around storytelling. If someone is already linked with something else, maybe a business that they made, where do they get started?

Jesse Cruz (18:19)

Yeah, because I have so many speakers, authors, coaches, all these people reach out to me about storytelling. That's the question I get the most, like where do I start? Right? Like so, if someone is not in a position to hire a coach and like they're not there because not everybody can, is that you also have been blessed with the opportunity, is that if you have a phone, you have a stage. So what you do is you take out your phone, you hit the record button and you start speaking. And no one is stopping you from doing that. And then what you do is you take that message and you want to upload that to your social media channels because pretty much everybody I know has a social media account. And so whether you have 100 followers or 100,000 or 100 million followers, you have people in your audience who would be willing to listen to what it is that you have to say. But do you have the courage to put it out there? And then also do you have the determination to hire the right people when you get to that point to help you share that story anyway that changes your life, changes your family's life, and then changes your business.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:29)

Start with just talking online and then hire people.

Jesse Cruz (19:36)

Yes.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (19:36)

Okay, so the old talk to the camera. That is an early step.

That's something I'm coming to terms with because it has been easier to have conversations with other people on the podcast than just talking alone to a camera. But I'm wondering, how did you get started with what you do online?

Jesse Cruz (19:57)

Well, first and foremost, it's first understanding. It's completely awkward and uncomfortable to speak into the camera and I've been doing it for years and I still think it's weird and that's okay, but what I realized is that It's not about me and so it's about the message It's about the people and if I make it about how I feel about it Then it's really just about me and then I'm not able to serve the people I'm called to help and so what I've learned is when I'm coaching my clients is that they hesitate so much on sharing their story. They hesitate on going live on social media. They hesitate on uploading the video, creating the reel, making the post. There's this hesitancy. And we process that and where that actually stems from, where that comes from. And what I've seen, one of the challenges is...

They don't care enough about the people they're called to serve. They care more about the opinions of people they're not called to serve. And that is the problem. Because we fear the judgment, the opinions of family and friends. What are they gonna think? What are they gonna say? And they're not even your assignment anyway. And so what happens is we actually replace our assignment in calling in life with fear of opinions rather than the obedience to your assignment.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:16)

My goodness. Okay, that is something everybody needs to remember because everybody probably worries about what people think of them. We all do. It has to be part of human nature.

Jesse Cruz (21:29)

It definitely is. And once the person gets to the point where they're more focused on serving the people they're meant to serve rather than the judgment of critics, then they can finally have some peace in their life.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (21:43)

Find your people? How did you, how did you find your people?

Jesse Cruz (21:48)

Well, I've been blessed with a great family, great wife, great children, and they inspire me every single day to become the man that they need me to be, so I can set the example for them. I prayed to God for him to add the right people in my life, also to remove the wrong people from my life. I've learned that getting in rooms, going to conferences, investing into communities, hiring coaches who are in alignment with.

My mission is one of the best things that I've ever done. Because sometimes we stay in environments for a long time because they're comfortable and familiar. Then we outgrow them, and then we still stay in that environment. And every time we step back into that room, we have to shrink again to fit the mould of the people in that room. And I got tired of shrinking myself to fit the mould of these family members and friends because they just wanted me be the person they always thought I would be.

But then I started to grow and then because I was growing, I was ⁓ intimidating them. So when you change, family and friends don't look at you and say, man, you've grown. They don't know how to say that. They say, man, you've changed. That's because they don't know how to say you've grown. And so I want to get in rooms constantly where everyone in that room is better than me. Like those are the rooms I strive to get in constantly. It's like, I want everyone in this room that I'm about to step into.

be smarter than me, be better than me, be further along than me, because I want to be the one that's the furthest behind, because I have the most room to grow. I think I have an advantage when I get in rooms like that. And so I continuously seek out rooms where people are further along than me that I can learn from.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (23:32)

It is better when we are a small fish in a larger pond instead of being the big fish, because then there is room to grow in a better, in a better space. And honestly, I think you said something that I'm normally too shy to say, which is that family and people who knew you a long time will not really understand your growth.

Jesse Cruz (24:00)

For sure, they definitely won't and not only will they not understand it, they may also ignore it, they may also criticize it, they may stop talking to you over it, and they may never support you about it, but that's okay; they're not part of the assignment.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:15)

That is so encouraging, knowing that happens to other people as well. That's why I like hearing from speakers and anyone who has had that experience, because it can be really isolating. I think this is something to address when people are growing, then there is potentially a bit of isolation in that growth. And then having a bit of distance from family can add on to that isolation. So that brings us back to what you said about how it's crucial to find our people.

Jesse Cruz (24:50)

Hmm, yeah, most definitely.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (24:53)

Definitely. I'm keen to ask if anyone is getting into the military now. Do you have any words of wisdom?

Jesse Cruz (25:01)

Say I mean if someone's gonna get in the military now make sure you have a good plan of leveraging the benefits that they offer take advantage of every benefit there there's so many benefits that I think most military members they just don't know about and some of them are across for all branches some of them are certain branches some were federal benefits some of them are state benefits but you just want to have a good mentor when you get into the military, someone who's been in a long time and has helped other soldiers become successful. And be preparing for your life after the military from day one. Because most people are only thinking about their time in the military. They think that time is gonna be a forever thing. But guess what? It's not. And so what are you gonna do when you leave? know, so you always wanna begin with the end in mind.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (25:50)

Begin with the end in mind. Do you think that lesson translates to other work as well?

Jesse Cruz (25:55)

Yeah, yeah, because I mean everything has an expiration date, you know, so we got to be thinking about life after that expiration date. What does it look like?

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:05)

Definitely. I'm curious about paid speaking. It seems to happen a lot in America, hopefully in other countries as well. What do you normally say to people who are looking to make a career out of speaking?

Jesse Cruz (26:18)

If you're going to do, you know, hire a coach. One of my biggest regrets is I was trying to figure out everything on my own. It was highly frustrating. It was aggravating. was discouraging, even depressing at times, because of how challenging this industry can be. But if you hire a coach that can show you the path and the steps to take, it really is a shortcut to success. And so if you're going to be getting into the speaking space, hire yourself a good coach. Be specific on the problem that you solve, the audience that you serve, and your unique solution on how you make that happen.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (26:53)

Okay, good to know. A lot of this is coming back to Finding Coaches. That's a lesson for all of us. Are there any three lessons for anyone who's listening, wherever they found us? Three lessons everybody should keep in mind as we wind up.

Jesse Cruz (27:01)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, number one, God is the most important. Number two, utilise the gift that you've been given to make the world a better place. And then number three, invest into yourself daily because that pays the highest dividend.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (27:32)

First, invest in yourself.

Jesse, thanks for your time. know it's a busy week, and it has been a real privilege. I learned so much more than I expected because I didn't know what exactly how it was going to unfold. And I know that everybody who listens to this nice little half hour will learn so much about how to grow. So I really appreciate your time and your wisdom.

Jesse Cruz (28:02)

It's my pleasure, thank you for having me.

Melanie Suzanne Wilson (28:04)

Thanks.

Okay.

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Unlocking Energy and Overcoming Burnout with Lisa Gornall In this episode, Lisa Gornall, a gifted energy healer and intuitive guide, shares powerful insights into how emotional energy impacts our wellbeing, success, and relationships. Whether you're feeling stuck, overwhelmed, or burned out, Lisa reveals actionable strategies to clear energetic blocks and realign with your purpose. Key Topics:

• How Lisa's intuitive abilities help prevent burnout by reading and reprogramming energy
• The difference between energy work and traditional card reading or therapy
• Recognising and releasing stored emotional stress that manifests physically
• The significance of divine timing and understanding the flow of life
• Practical boundaries for entrepreneurs and high achievers to preserve energy
• The impact of generational patterns and past life influences on current behaviors
• The importance of investing in yourself to truly value your growth
• Overcoming victim mentality and self-sabotage to step into personal power
• Balancing work, life, and emotional health to prevent burnout and foster fulfillment

Timestamps:00:00 - Introduction: Lisa's intuitive work and how it helps prevent burnout 02:12 - Understanding energy reading versus traditional healing methods 04:00 - Lisa's experiences with spirits and energy awareness from childhood 07:09 - When to seek Lisa's help: signs you're feeling stuck and needing clarity 09:23 - Differentiating between perceived and real feelings of being stuck 10:55 - The role of dreams and purpose as personal roadmaps to fulfillment 12:21 - Past life influences guiding current fears and choices 14:14 - The importance of energy clearing in medical recovery and wellbeing 16:33 - How stored emotional stress impacts physical health and manifestation 18:13 - Clearing negativity and reconnecting with the divine light 19:33 - Divine timing and trusting life's natural flow 20:23 - Balancing predetermined fate with free will and personal choices 22:44 - The significance of energetic boundaries in relationships and business 25:12 - How to recognize and shift from victim mentality to empowerment 28:15 - Breaking generational patterns to heal family wounds 33:30 - The necessity of investing in truth and worth to avoid self-sabotage 38:33 - Practical steps for entrepreneurs: creating boundaries and managing energy 44:05 - How self-care, joy, and unplugging prevent burnout and boost productivity 49:14 - Returning to human connection and emotional awareness in busy lives 50:43 - Overcoming fear, limiting beliefs, and recognizing subconscious patterns 55:39 - The power of objective perspective: choosing your environment and company 58:12 - The impact of investing in paid support and community over free groups 60:12 - Essential tips for new business owners to safeguard energetic health 63:01 - Final thoughts: Letting go, trusting divine timing, and living intentionallyResources & Links:

This episode offers a clear start to recognise energetic blocks, harness divine timing, and create the boundaries necessary for a balanced, fulfilled life. Whether you're looking to improve personal wellbeing or elevate your business, Lisa's insights provide a powerful roadmap to overcoming obstacles from the inside out. Transcript

Lisa Gornall (00:00)

Sounds good.

Melanie Wilson (00:02)

Lisa, you work with people to prevent burnout. How do you explain to everybody what exactly you do?

Lisa Gornall (00:12)

So I'm a medium.

So I was born with the ability to become one with people's energy. So I can literally feel what you're holding in your body, why, sometimes, how long it's been there. And then I'm intuitively able to help you let that go. I can tell if it moves somewhere else in your body, if it's not really leaving. And then we reprogram it with positive energy. So that's one of the major things that I do with everybody that I work with.

Melanie Wilson (00:39)

Okay, how did you get started with that?

Lisa Gornall (00:43)

I was blessed in that I was born with that ability. I had no idea that what I did was different. I thought everybody could read energy the way that I do. had no, I mean, we all have intuitive abilities. I just didn't realize that I was like really intense with what I can do.

Melanie Wilson (00:47)

Okay.

Okay, so how did you realise you can do this?

Lisa Gornall (01:06)

So as I got older, and I started just talking to other types of healers, like Mayan shamans, I did Reiki, became a Reiki master. And as I put myself in those areas, I would realise, like, you know, like the Mayan shaman would be like, you have this here. And I'm like, yes, and I have this, and I have this, and this is from this life and from this experience. And his eyes just got really big. And I was like, okay, now everybody can do this. And like when I got the Reiki master training,

Like I could see the attunements, whether or not they would like take place or not. And the person that was performing them can't even see that.

Melanie Wilson (01:40)

What...

What does that mean?

Lisa Gornall (01:45)

So Reiki is like an ancient Japanese hands-on healing technique. And there's three different trainings that you go through to become a Reiki master. And what the master does is they stand in front of you and they do something three times, like in certain chakras and they say certain things to open up the chakras to give you the attunement. Well, I can see when the attunements weren't taking. I can see where there was a block and why there was a block, what needed to be let go so that way they could receive the attunement in that space.

So that's just a couple of examples. And then when I was like nine, we had a paranormal investigator come to our house because we had a spirit in the house. And as soon as she like was there, she was putting her into the white light, like I could see the spirit. And I was like, like all of these times that like, you know, I had seen the spirit in the house or in my room or like messing with the cat or whatever. But because nobody had ever said to me, Hey Lisa, this is a spirit. My mind didn't know to categorise it as a spirit, or this is what this is. And even when my uncle had died, and my grandma couldn't connect with him, I was like, Uncle David's right outside. He's on the porch. All you have to do is just see him there. My mom and my grandma didn't say, Lisa, you're seeing spirits. It was just kind of like, I just saw these things, and I said things, and nobody said, this is what you're doing.

Melanie Wilson (03:06)

Okay, so you could just say things. I'm wondering, how do you deal with the sceptics?

Lisa Gornall (03:17)

Well, the sceptics aren't my people. I'm not here to try and prove it to them. I've been doing this my whole entire life. I'm 49 years old. I'm not here to prove to anybody. You either get what I do and I can help you, or you don't get it, and that's totally okay. But I'm not gonna try to like get you to see or believe me. You know, and the funny thing is like I was actually very analytical. My grandpa was an education for NASA. My grandma was a nurse. Like.

You know, like I was taught to look at things very analytically, which is why I think it took me so long to realise that I had these abilities, because like I didn't, you know, understand how to process them, because, you know, there's not books when I was growing up that explained any of this to me.

Melanie Wilson (04:00)

Okay, that's something. So you weren't growing up surrounded by alternative spiritual thoughts. You weren't growing up in an intensely religious space, I assume.

Lisa Gornall (04:14)

Well, we were very Catholic. So we were very like we went to church, we did all the things that were required of us. And my mom was open, and my dad is very intuitive. But like, it wasn't like, you know, my mom would like take my sisters and I into the bedroom and like she would pull out like cards and she would, you know, you had to say if it was red or black, where the card was, why couldn't do that? There's no energy on that for me to read. Like, I don't read inanimate objects. If you lose something and you call me, like, I don't know where it's at. That's not my gift, right? That's not how I work. Like, I have to read the energy. So my sister's kind of burned out on like that kind of stuff at a young age, but there was, there wasn't a lot of alternative things happening besides my mom bringing in that paranormal investigator to clear the house. There wasn't a lot, you know, happening.

Melanie Wilson (05:08)

Right, right. So there's a big difference between what you do and how people read cards. And there are trends for that now. There are Tarot, there are other cards. So this is totally different. With what you do, is it a bit more intuitive? Are you going with a feeling?

Lisa Gornall (05:16)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I just know. So I'm just becoming one with the energy, and I feel it in my body as if it's mine. So wherever people have their blocks, like I can feel it. I'm not going to go through your blocks with you on your podcast, and we're not going to do that for you. like, but I can, like that's like, that's what I do. And that's what I do in my calls because what happens is, is we store things in our body to deal with later. When's later? Right?

Melanie Wilson (05:45)

Okay, so are you feeling it?

Lisa Gornall (06:00)

We don't know when that later moment is going to be. So it's really important that we start to recognize like, I'm stressed, I'm overwhelmed, I'm mad, this person hurt me, right? And we just keep storing all this energy and we don't deal with it. And then what happens is that we implode as some poor, innocent bystander. And then we have to fix it.

Melanie Wilson (06:20)

I want to apologize, it flipped to my phone microphone just when I was...

Lisa Gornall (06:29)

⁓

Melanie Wilson (06:36)

I... what? I swear to you this has never happened. One second. Okay, there it goes. It's back to the right microphone. I was just making sure it doesn't have the echo. I'll edit this part out, don't worry, but I was making sure it doesn't have the echo, and then it switched.

Lisa Gornall (06:39)

you

That's okay. I just try to keep going in case it could still get me, and I was like, whenever you were doing was okay.

Melanie Wilson (06:53)

No, it's cool.

Yeah, yeah. We'll just use your stuff. No, that's going with the flow so much. So I'm wondering in what situations do people need to seek someone like you for help?

Lisa Gornall (07:09)

Thanks. Yeah. People usually come to me when they feel stuck. They're not happy with their life. There's something big going on and they don't know how to move forward. And they've usually tried therapy. Most of my clients come to me and they've had some experience with therapy and it didn't quite get, I also have a lot of people that have worked with a lot of different types of healers that can do pieces or parts of what I do, but they couldn't do all of it. And so people have done some type of self work before they come to me. If they haven't, it's very difficult, and I'm probably not the person to start with because they're like, I don't know how I feel. You need to at least know how you feel when you come to work with me. Yeah, it happens.

Melanie Wilson (07:52)

They need a starting point. And I'm guessing there would be some cases where people are in extreme situations, and they need more help than getting unstuck.

Lisa Gornall (07:54)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean, it just depends. Like a lot of people feel overwhelmed or burnt out. A lot of women come to me when they're not happy in their relationships anymore, because a lot of times women settle into relationships, you know, at a young age, or there's nobody else around, or they've been with their partner for so much time, and they're like, we just have to get married. And then, you know, as we get older, as we hit those hormone changes, and we don't have the patience for all that anymore.

A lot of women come to me, and you're not going to see this on my website anywhere because the husbands would not approve, right? But to leave their relationships when they no longer were.

Melanie Wilson (08:41)

It's interesting, and I need to be careful about what I say with that sort of thing, but do you find that sometimes people have a gut instinct or a feeling?

Lisa Gornall (08:51)

That's it.

Melanie Wilson (08:55)

And you can't fully articulate it, but sometimes you just know something.

Lisa Gornall (09:02)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's my life.

Melanie Wilson (09:07)

For those listening, we're sitting and just nodding for a while. Nodding. I love it when I have a guest who's just on the wavelength. Totally. Just nodding. So, okay. So that happens quite a bit. um, and, and so the stuck feeling, is there any difference between people thinking they are stuck and really being stuck?

Lisa Gornall (09:23)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Wilson (09:37)

Or if we think we're stuck, is that simply what's going on? Is there sometimes more to it?

Lisa Gornall (09:46)

Usually, if we're feeling stuck, it's because we're not doing what we're supposed to be doing, and most people are disconnected from their dreams, right? Your dreams are your personal roadmap to happiness, and how many of you out there have your dreams sitting back there on a back burner of some day? Like you're not taking any steps. You're not doing anything, and you're like, you know, I'll get to it eventually. When we're not doing what we're here to do, we feel stuck.

We get angry, and we throw ourselves into work, thinking like, well, I'm working, I'm busy with work. But then it doesn't matter, like how many promotions you get or raises or whatever, because it's not enough. We are here to follow our dreams.

Melanie Wilson (10:29)

Yes. Doing something doesn't mean you're doing your calling. And the way I translate that sort of thing is I wanted to differentiate the great dreams that we can have, where, for example, I grew up hearing that some dreams are far-fetched, and there was a time in history when, f you remember the Idol shows were coming out and so it was one person in an entire nation who was winning the dream. So it was a scarcity thing that happens. But I think what you're describing is what some people call alignment now, or it's that to translate it into the thought that, or the framework that I grew up with, it's that we're all built a particular way.

Lisa Gornall (11:03)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Melanie Wilson (11:25)

And in a way that can serve a purpose. So do you see people sometimes simply not serving their purpose? Like maybe they have a skill or a strength in a particular thing, or they could do great work and great contributions with a particular group, a particular place, and they're literally not going there.

Lisa Gornall (11:35)

Mm-hmm.

That happens all the time because sometimes people, you we grew up in our parents' family, those closest to us tell us that's not an option, you can't do that. Sometimes we're afraid of doing it. Sometimes we're guided by past lives. The reason I went to nursing school was because I was being guided by a past life. In sixth grade, when they're like, what do you want to do when you grow up? I wrote a whole paper about being a nurse. I saw myself at this red cross truck. I saw my husband was over in Europe somewhere, fighting the war.

I wanted to find him. I left our kids behind, and I went there. I was 12. I'm not married. I don't know this person. And yet that was guiding my future. And so many times, we're guided by past life experiences. Whether we're open to it or not, it doesn't matter. We have irrational fears. have, you know, we meet certain people? We're like, absolutely not. Right. There's all this past life stuff that's guiding us that we're not even aware about, but past lives also guide our dreams or our failure to follow them because we have fears.

Melanie Wilson (12:55)

Did you end up working as a nurse as well?

Lisa Gornall (12:57)

No, I did not. I had two classes left to graduate, and I changed my major, and my gosh, my grandfather that worked for NASA, was livid. He's like, being a nurse is good enough for your grandmother, it's not good enough for you. But I was sitting, sitting on my patient's bed, which is not allowed. I was on the cardiac unit, and I was giving him 20 pills, and he had a tendency to hide the pills. And so I had to, like, really make sure he was taking all of his medications.

And I just felt like in his chest, there was something going on with the family and we needed to address it. And so I asked him how things were going with his family. And he said that he was estranged from his daughter. And so we kind of talked about that. And I was like, well, you're the dad. You've started this pathway with them. They followed your lead. Like, you can go back and you can fix this. And he took all of his pills, and he was so happy, and he was smiling. And I hated every single day that I went to clinical, but I'm so glad that I went because I have that knowledge and a lot of my clients have injuries and they get sick or whatever. So I'm able to read that as well. I'm definitely not a medical medium. I wouldn't claim to be that in any way, but I have an understanding when those things happen. And last year, my dad had a double bypass surgery, and he almost died twice. And being in the hospital for 20 days with all the nurses doing the energy work that I do, I was so grateful that I had the knowledge.

Melanie Wilson (14:14)

Yes

Lisa Gornall (14:22)

And I could not believe that the medical system was not doing any energy work at all because that's what really helped my father. He was in a coma for eight days.

Melanie Wilson (14:31)

That's a lot. I have so much sympathy for that. And I must admit, I'm still wrapping my head around the energy part. I've been hearing perspectives that are scientific, all of that. But part of what you said is the relational side, that if someone is perhaps near the end of life or in a situation, whatever it might be, part of it could be they have a physical issue that needs a pile of pills. Sorry, my eyes popped when you said 20 pills. I don't know how normal that is to take that many, but.

Lisa Gornall (15:04)

Depends on how many conditions you've got.

Melanie Wilson (15:14)

Fair enough, but aside from the physical conditions, people can have these underlying issues, like relational concerns and other things. And we all know that stress and feelings and so on can affect us physically, right?

Lisa Gornall (15:34)

Mm-hmm. Well, they manifest, right? Like I was saying earlier, we store that stuff in our body in specific areas to deal with later. Common places that people store their stresses in their chest, they feel like there's a weight pressing on them in their stomach, right? Like their stomach feels tight, maybe their hips feel like they can't move, or they feel like they can't speak. Those are the four common places people store energy, and they just keep putting it there until they explode over something that had nothing to do with something just to release some of that stress, some of that pressure, right? And then we got to make amends and fix things. But we only release a little bit. Like we are not taught to let go.

We're taught to deal with it later. You're busy. Focus on the task at hand. You can deal with it later. It's kind of like the dreams, right? The dreams are on the back burner, and all the stress and the worry and all that stuff that we carry. We just keep carrying it. We are not taught to clear it and let it go. And it manifests in other things.

Melanie Wilson (16:33)

Absolutely. And the dreams you talked about, people basically, well, being in situations that could lead to them either continuing their lives or not. And it really reminds us that if we have something in life that we need to do, if we have something that is our calling or our purpose or a problem to solve, then you don't know what's going to happen tomorrow and, and it might make more sense to address things or attempt things today. Do you think so?

Lisa Gornall (17:14)

I agree with that completely. Anytime that we're carrying and holding on to anything from the past, it keeps us stuck. It's like a weight. There's this image I like to share on social media where there's this blue butterfly with a string, and it's carrying like this rock. Imagine that. But that's what we do to ourselves all day long. Somebody said something, and we're hurt. Somebody does something, and we're hurt. We're mad about something that happened to us in our childhood. We're mad at stuff that we carried in from past lives.

What are we doing to clear that energy? And it taints us. know, like one of the things I like to teach people to do is to bring in white light, which is God, love, universe, source, whatever you want to call it. Right. And you've heard that we're born into the light. We cross over into the light. Like we are the light. But as we put all this negativity and stress and worries in our body, it blocks that light from channelling. It's kind of like a river getting clogged up with debris. Right.

This is energy, and it turns into matter, physical illness, physical disease, what have you. So you want to clear your energy out so that way you're in a good space, and you're not easily triggered. You feel better, and you attract in more abundance.

Melanie Wilson (18:29)

Over here, I have seen a slight trend. I don't know statistically how common this is, but I would wonder how many elderly people pass away almost precisely after they turn 100 or after a particular birthday. So the difference in Australia, maybe some other countries do it as well. Clearly not in America, but when someone turns a hundred, they can get a letter from what was the queen. Maybe the king does it. I don't know. They have their own stuff going on right now, but that was the tradition for a long time. If people were that way inclined, and it's amazing, realising that some people really did somehow just keep going and then pass away after that. And sometimes.

Lisa Gornall (19:19)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Melanie Wilson (19:24)

Also, things just line up neatly in our circumstances, where something pops up at a moment that it just feels too good to be coincidental. I'm wondering, have you seen timing just looking a little bit divine sometimes?

Lisa Gornall (19:33)

Mm-hmm.

Timing is always divine. Even if we don't think it's divine, right? Like, even if we think something happens that's bad, that is happening to course correct us to get us back on our best path. Divine timing is happening all the time. It's just, are you aware of it or are you not?

Melanie Wilson (20:00)

Right, it's always divine timing.

Lisa Gornall (20:03)

It's always happening.

Melanie Wilson (20:05)

I love these sorts of questions. I'm so keen to ask. I mean, everybody will have a different take on this, but how do you balance the, what do you call it? Predetermined fate and steering our own destinies.

Lisa Gornall (20:23)

I like to describe it as you have your pathway, right? Like you come into this life and you say, these are the things that I want to do. These are the things that are going to happen. These are the challenges I'm going to take on. Right. And then you hit that challenge, and you're like, actually, I changed my mind. Never mind. I don't want to do that anymore. I'm to go over here. But you keep getting pulled back to whatever that thing is because there are certain things that you are supposed to do. And then the things that aren't set in stone.

You know, maybe you said, well, maybe I'll aim for this, but if I don't do it, it's okay, because then I can go this way. Right? So it's very fluid. Like, there are some things that are going to happen that you don't have control over, but you have control at all times over how you think, how you feel, your energy, your environment, what you're eating. There's so many other things that we do have control over. So when we're having experiences, we can decide, is this a good experience or is this a bad experience?

And how we decide to think about whatever's happening greatly impacts how easy or how hard it is to get through the thing. And if something keeps happening on repeat, like you're the common denominator, it doesn't matter where you go, but this thing keeps happening. You have some inner work to do. Like that is your red flag. That is your sign. Like, Hey, pay attention here. You're not getting this. If you keep doing the same thing, you have something to heal, and so that's how you can know that that's one of those predetermined things.

Melanie Wilson (21:57)

Sometimes the world is telling us something by giving us the same lesson until it's Groundhog Day, right?

Lisa Gornall (22:03)

Right? It is. It really is. And so if you're just like, why me? You're a victim. You've handed over your power. It's going to be a really hard struggle. Right? So you always want to be like, okay, this is happening. How do I move forward through this? Is there anything that I need to let go of? Is there anything that I need to do in a new way or differently? Is there somebody that I should talk to about this so I can have a different perspective? Because we get so stuck in our heads and we build things up and we make them really, really hard. And then it just all adds to that momentum of like, I can't move forward, I'm stuck, and I can't get past this. But we can.

Melanie Wilson (22:44)

We can.

Lisa Gornall (22:45)

We can.

Melanie Wilson (22:47)

We can. Yes, we have to just get ourselves unstuck. We really do. I was going to say that if you did want to talk about my blocks as an example, then you'd be welcome to, but I don't know what that would involve. Or if you wanted to talk about your own blocks. Okay.

Lisa Gornall (23:06)

Yeah, yeah, we can talk about mind blocks. I do a lot of training on mind blocks. So there's a lot of different things that, you know, we do to ourselves to hold us back from what it is that we say that we want, right? One of those things is self-sabotage, right? And self-sabotage is always something that we do to ourselves. You can ask for abundance all day, every day. You can have the gratitude journals. You can do all the things, but if you have decided that you can't have whatever it is that you say you want to have, you're self-sabotaging, you won't have it. Like I always do this block in front of my chest, like you're blocking yourself from having it. The other thing is the victim. And I always do a V, and I go down into the ground. Victim is when we believe other people are doing stuff to us, right? It's like you're pointing a finger, but you've got three fingers coming back at yourself, right? We're not victims. If we are like this, let's say, like if somebody is raped or somebody takes advantage of them or something like that, when you go into that victim's place, we hand over even more power, right? Because then we go into this deep fear of this could happen again, I lost my power, I lost control, what have you. So whenever something happens like that, we wanna make sure that energetically we are doing the inner work, healing, forgiving.

Clearing and not continuing to carry that energy because the moment that we think we've lost our power it impacts every single thing in your life. It's very hard to get out of right They'll be like pull yourself up by the bootstraps like that's an American saying, pull your pull yourself up by your bootstraps, right? When you're in victim, it's so dark, and it's so hard, and people start isolating from you. It becomes like this whole thing, so we don't want to go in that space and then…

Melanie Wilson (24:57)

Is that because people can sense it?

Lisa Gornall (25:00)

We can, we read energy. Even if you don't understand that you read energy, we're all reading energy. You know when you meet somebody if you like them or if you don't, or if you're indifferent, right? The worst relationships are when you meet somebody, and you're indifferent. Because those, as you get older, like especially, you know, marriages and stuff, those ones are just like, the grass is greener somewhere else, the grass is green over there, like I'm indifferent, right?

The indifferent people they're not going to be your best friends. They're not going to be the people you want to hang out with all the time. And you definitely don't want to marry them. The people that you meet, and you're like, I don't like you, you probably have some past life stuff with them that needs to be healed. We can recognise the energy in different forms in different lives. And then if you meet somebody and you love them, then you have some connection with them that you're bringing forward. We are like, hey, we're finding each other again. Hey, we're connected. Like, hey, let's create a relationship. And those work together really well.

Melanie Wilson (26:00)

Have a juicy, weird question. Not juicy, but a bit of a controversial question.

So if someone is, for example, hypothetically, every so often having a feeling of wanting to just get away or flee, and they know that past generations had a mentality of blend in and essentially hide yourself in plain sight, and you'll be safe if you do that. Have you seen people having some sort of mentality of either blending in in plain sight or just running away, not literally running away, but just avoiding things in some way, that sort of thing, various forms of avoiding. Have you seen that in some sort of generational way in the past?

Lisa Gornall (26:57)

absolutely. And I've seen people who are adopted meet their biological family members or, you know, a couple of them or whatever. And the patterns are astounding. So even though they're raised in a different environment with totally different people, they have a few of their things, but they're not as strong as the genetic patterns that come through our DNA.

Melanie Wilson (27:20)

Yes, I was thinking that earlier that, you know, we talk about these generational things and it can sound very woo-woo, but part of it is DNA and some schools of thought these days have said that traumas, experiences, what not, somehow influence our DNA and they seep through to the next generations. Have you seen ways that people can break the pattern? Is it about these blocks or is

Lisa Gornall (27:21)

There's a lot happening.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Melanie Wilson (27:50)

There are more to it.

Lisa Gornall (27:50)

It is.

It is. Well, they call them like generational family healers, right? So like I can tell you about like, you know, a lot of the relationship stuff that I healed in my family. Like when I look at my grandmothers on both sides and the relationships that they had, they weren't, you know, they weren't amazing relationships. There's a little bit of abuse in there, right? And then

you know, watching my parents and, and, know, just seeing all those different levels. When I first started dating, I started dating those similar types of men and I would see it and I'd be like, Nope, Nope, Nope. Right. And then I didn't do a lot of healing work with my dad until after my girls were born and my girls are 21 months apart. So when they were born, I did all this work and I came back to my dad and I was like, Oh my gosh, dad, I'm so sorry for blah, blah, blah, you know, whatever. And then when my girl started dating,

They were dating these types of men too. And I was like, but I didn't marry that. How is this happening? Like, this is not what you see in your family. How are you dating men that can be emotionally manipulative or abusive to you? Because I did the work after they

So it got passed down to them. So I'm always like, no, I'm like, who are you dating? What's happening? I see this. No, right? So it's probably not super fun for me to be your mom, but my clients love it. Cause I'm like, no, no, no. But absolutely we have these patterns that we just, we, we, we not only are we repeating what we see, but there's something energetically going on that we just keep carrying through the line until it keeps getting healed.

Melanie Wilson (29:14)

You

Lisa Gornall (29:33)

and then it shifts things for the next generation.

Melanie Wilson (29:37)

It's so fascinating when we can see that people, be it ourselves or anyone else, people can truly end up with daddy issues or mommy issues.

Lisa Gornall (29:48)

A lot of people have them. Most people, I would say, have them, to be honest. You know, because we're seeking approval. We want that love that we didn't get from them. And then we keep dating people who have those things, trying to prove it to them, because it's going to be different. But is this a person?

Melanie Wilson (29:53)

Most.

Okay, that's

leading on a path because you're talking about approval and this show aims to help people who are trying to look after themselves as they do great work. And frankly, how many people either get into workaholic habits or extra aspirational. And I wonder what percentage of entrepreneurs of high achievers

Lisa Gornall (30:25)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Wilson (30:35)

have some sort of family issue, be it conformity, trauma, something. I just feel like it's no...

Lisa Gornall (30:44)

I haven't met somebody who hasn't. And I've

been doing this work since 2002. I have not worked with somebody who has not had something that they're trying to prove. That's what drives them. That's why they're so successful. Because they're proving it in an area where they can see the checks. Like, okay, I hit these metrics, I'm gonna get this position. I hit these metrics, I'm gonna get this raise. Like, I'm climbing the ladder to get this approval, but they're only doing it in work.

And then, and then, and then they don't have the energy to put into the relationships because all their energy is being spent at work. Right? It's this vicious cycle. It's a vicious cycle.

Melanie Wilson (31:15)

my gosh.

That's why we do it, it's not-

And it's not only to tick the boxes in the actual work. have you seen some people subconsciously at least delving into or pouring themselves into work so much that of course they're not going to have the energy or the time frankly to then. Pursue anything else. I mean, it's almost the stereotype, but maybe that is what we're doing. Sometimes we are.

deliberately or not consciously withdrawing ourselves from relational possibilities by just absorbing ourselves into work.

Lisa Gornall (32:12)

Mm-hmm. And then it keeps us safe in the relationships too, because even if we're in one and it's not working or we're not happy in it or whatever, you don't have the bandwidth to deal with it because we're so immersed in our work. And if work's not enough, then we're over giving to the community or we're over giving to like whatever. It's like we just are on autopilot to just auto over whatever.

I'm always writing articles and videos out over giving over working over caring over whatever because

Melanie Wilson (32:46)

Did you

see my bio? This is just spooky.

Lisa Gornall (32:50)

Well,

I did, but that was last week. But this is what I do. And what I help people do is I help them get to the root of why they're over giving. Why are you overworking? What are you trying to prove? Because here's the crazy thing. We can't prove something to anybody else. When we come to people like trying to prove something, it gives off an icky vibe and they're like, ⁓ I don't want to be there.

Right? The moment we start trying to prove something, we've lost it. When I was, you know, first starting my business and I was trying to prove I had my intuitive abilities, people took advantage of that. Cause it's, it's like, yeah, because they're like, you're trying to prove something. Let me get from you when I can. Versus when you stand in your power.

Melanie Wilson (33:30)

Really?

What did people...

What did they try to get? What happened?

Lisa Gornall (33:40)

When they were just trying to like ask me

questions outside of session time or like just trying to get more like back in the day when I first started, I had like free 30 minute session or whatever. They would just try to keep pushing and like, I just had to create boundaries around all of that just be like, this is what I'm giving and no more. Because the moment you start trying to be like, Oh, let me help you. Like one time I had a kid who had an alien, I don't even know, like white light, white light, white light aliens. Okay. And I spent like

an extra hour on the phone with this kid back in the day because he was so in the trenches. Like there was so much clearing and like so much stuff and it was insane. And I didn't get paid a penny for it. Cause I was just trying to prove that I can see it and help. like, you know, I had, you know, all the counter to what he was doing, like everything he said, I was like, no, this is the truth. And you're like, I'm like, I hear you energetically, this is the truth, right?

Melanie Wilson (34:26)

⁓

Lisa Gornall (34:36)

And he got to a good place and he was really grateful. Even at the end, he's like, do you want me to pay you? And I'm like, I don't even know what to do at this point. Like, let's just go. think we're done. Right. But when I first started working, I think too, because of like the analytical background that I came from, and I think also just, you know, me proving my worth through overworking and all the different jobs that I've had as well. You know, it just was something that just came about that I was trying to heal.

Melanie Wilson (35:04)

So did you have an overworking tendency? said that you were proving something. It sounds like you were helping someone even more to prove something.

Lisa Gornall (35:10)

Yes.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that I was good at my work, right? That I could do this, that this was what I was here for, right? Like just going over and beyond and above. And a lot of people do that by, you know, working extra hours every day, working on the weekends, you know, buying people presents or like, you know, going above and beyond relationships, just trying to make up for it in all these ways because like they're not present. Like there's all this

over giving and over doing that we're doing in society and that's not what we're here for.

Melanie Wilson (35:54)

my goodness. The relational version of that, think people can relate to this as well. And that's showing me that we do all need to set standards for ourselves. think the vague, yes, boundaries. I didn't even understand that word for so long, but I think I can vaguely tell you, and it wouldn't really say a lot, that

Lisa Gornall (36:09)

and boundaries. ⁓

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Wilson (36:23)

At least once in my adulthood, probably more, there would be someone who says, are you free? Are you around right now? Instantly. And I seriously just get up and go right away. I drop a hat and, and I think.

Lisa Gornall (36:36)

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. You gotta ask yourself,

what is the cost to me? What is the cost? Women are known for overgiving and overdoing. There are men that do it too, but predominantly women have been taught to put their needs last, to make sure everybody else is taken care of. You're falling apart, it's okay. You're sick.

and you feel like you're dying, get all these things done. Like, you know what I mean? It's a whole different perspective on the genders, but there are men, it's just, there's a lot more women.

Melanie Wilson (37:18)

Let's explore that for a second because I, I feel like I don't relate to the cultural norm because I can't wrap my head around this weird mentality where we are meant to have the version of a woman's hero's journey where we became completely wrecked and then rescued ourselves. But look, I appreciate the people who created great success amid

their burnout and exhaustion. I appreciate that. My version of it is at one point in life, I was rushing around for things that weren't going to create abundance. I slipped and got what's called a tibial plateau fracture. So you'd know what that is because you studied nursing. I Googled it and it's 1 % of fractures or it was at the time. So, you know, I have that story, but some people have these great stories.

Lisa Gornall (38:02)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Wilson (38:15)

that become a hero's journey and it's great that they recovered from their burnout, but I'm worried. Do we have to put ourselves through that? Surely there could be a version of this where we find our purpose without getting wrecked in the process.

Lisa Gornall (38:33)

Yeah, I mean, I think there's just so much programming and training and our lack of self love and self worth and self enoughness and just proving to everybody that we can do all these things at what cost. And I'm serious, I'm always saying that to my clients and to myself, like, what's the cost? Because I've done it all. I've hit burnout twice, you know, once when I was 18 and then 10 years ago, for what?

Right? First lesson wasn't enough. And so it's about realizing that I'm not meant to do everything. I'm only here to do the things that I'm here to do. And I need to do things in a balanced way because we need to look at our energy levels, like our cell phone batteries. When our cell phone battery is at 0 % and it doesn't charge that night and you try to make a phone call the next day, it's not happening. But as humans,

We are at 0 % and we're like, we're going to keep going and we start going into negatives and that's how we get sick. That's how we get injured as well. And so we've got to stop this whole mentality of I can do it all. Of course we can do it all. The question is, what do I want to do? What am I here to do? What are the things that really matter to me? We need to stop getting distracted with all the shiny objects and all the distractions. When is my path?

Melanie Wilson (40:02)

The battery that is spot on. wanted to reference what Brene Brown says because she talks about marriages or partnerships and how she will say with her husband, have 20 % left. have 40 % at the end of the day. And then the other person just says, okay, this is what percentage I have energetically.

I really worry that we don't have the space or opportunity often to tell the world, our community, or whoever we are supporting. I have 10 % today. And especially as women, I think it's going to be controversial to say most of us know the working world wasn't set up for women to have more energy one week than the other. And I remember times in my career when I felt kind of shamed.

Lisa Gornall (40:53)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Wilson (40:58)

for saying, I just don't have the energy today. You look like you're just not up to it. You're not built for the work, even though we all know how we are built.

Lisa Gornall (41:04)

Right?

Mm hmm. 100%.

100%. And that's why we push ourselves to burnout. That's the only path that there is. And the crazy thing is that people who are in the hustle will defend the hustle. They might be in the hospital recovering from some procedure and they are working and they are bragging online about how I'm still going.

And then they keep getting things. And this is what I'm talking about when like you keep hitting an obstacle and you're like, I'm not getting the lesson. I'm not getting the message. Like things are not clicking. We're not meant to overdo. When we get stuck in the hustle, we have totally lost touch with our dreams. We don't know what brings us joy. We don't do any self care. And people will be like, I got my hair done or I got my nails done. Were you on your phone the whole time checking emails?

Yeah, then that doesn't count. You know what I mean? But we are so conditioned to just keep going and give it your all and don't tell anybody that you can't do it all. Which goes back to what I said earlier. We don't have to do it all. What are we here to do? What is our purpose?

Melanie Wilson (42:23)

Yes, we don't have to do it all. And even if we are focusing on our main purpose, we need to be realistic about our energy, but also to tie in with what you do. Do you see that if people need to be realistic about their, I don't know if you put it emotional, maybe you put it as emotional energy, something like that, where maybe people are having a phase of grief or

Lisa Gornall (42:32)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Melanie Wilson (42:51)

they're overloaded with the personal responsibilities and still trying to get through the normal work. Have you seen that fluctuating for people as well?

Lisa Gornall (43:04)

Yeah, yeah. And that's hard too, because then you're more triggered. You're constantly triggered when you're in that space because this is happening. ⁓ It just keeps feeling that emotional charge that you have. Right? So I always tell people if you are triggered, you got to do some letting go. Because the goal is, that no matter where you're at and whatever's happening around you, you can be calm, balanced.

rounded, aligned, and be collected. And if you're not in that space, you're going to say or do things that you have to fix later.

Melanie Wilson (43:44)

Right, I'm wondering if you can do vague examples or any sort of illustration for how people can really thrive in their work and create value at scale or in some sort of great way when they are overcoming these things.

Lisa Gornall (44:05)

I think the number one thing with work especially is that we have to create boundaries around our time at work. And if you're an entrepreneur, you have to have an off time. You have to. Even if you work for a corporation or a company, we have to have an off time. It is good for the people we work with. It is good for ourselves. We are not meant to work all the time. When we work all the time, we're not going to have fresh ideas. We're not going to be happy, pleasant people.

we're not going to be in a good space. So you have to have an end time and you also have to have a start time. Like I tell people when you wake up in the morning, the first thing you should always do is bring in the white light. God love universe source, whatever you want to call it. Cause who knows where you went while you were sleeping. Who knows what dreams you had, what energy you're starting your day with. Right? So you want to bring in the white light and just say, I am peace. I am calm. I am balanced. Something like that. I am statements are always three words. Then

start to get ready for the day. Have your hot cup of something, something, eat your breakfast, wash your face, get dressed. You're not sitting at your computer checking your emails before you do that. Your day is done, right? You've got to start your day by recharging and giving yourself back more energy. Cause what if you didn't sleep good, especially if you're a woman with your hormone shifting or whatever, you've got to do something to balance your energy and give you a little bit more charge to your battery when you first wake up in the morning.

Now once you're ready for the day, okay, go ahead. Now you're working. And then you have to take a lunch, like a lunch where you can recharge and you have to have an end to the workday. We just bought like a fixture for a year and a half ago with some land. So we're outside, we might be doing things. I might be exercising. I might be in the pool if it's warm, depending on what it is. I might just go sit outside in the chair, you know?

When you have to do something to signify, this is the end of my work day. And if you have a brilliant idea or something that you think about for work, you have to write it down on a piece of paper, not your phone. Because if you go on your phone, you're down a slippery slope, right?

Melanie Wilson (46:14)

Yes, it will

lead you to then get tempted to look at everything else.

Lisa Gornall (46:18)

And then you've got to make time and schedule in things that bring you joy. Most people when I ask them what brings them joy, they don't know. They have this blank look because we're not focused on what makes us happy. We're not. And it's very normal for me to ask somebody and they just sit there and they just give me a blank look for 30 seconds. And I'm like, what are the things that you did when you were a child that brought you joy? Do you want to do any of those things as an adult?

and schedule them on your calendar so that way you do them because the only way you're going to stop overworking is if you have something else to look forward to because you've got to break that pattern.

Melanie Wilson (47:10)

the mic again. This is never happened. Oh, it's so weird. I mean, I've been holding the mic for just a few of these episodes, but yeah, it keeps just disconnecting through this one. So I was saying that, I was saying that what we need to do by the sound is to bring into the day the things that make us human.

Lisa Gornall (47:13)

There you go. That's so crazy.

Mm-hmm. We need to stop focusing so much on work and productivity because that's going to burn us out. And there is no badge of honor. There's no reward. There's no, woo, you can't burn out. It's months, weeks, when it has you, whenever your situation is of you recovering and doing all the inner work to not get back to that place again.

So if you've not experienced burnout in your life, I highly don't recommend it. I'm assuming you don't recommend it. Like you've got to make time to do the things you want to do now. Right? Like you hear all the time about like people wait to travel until they're older and then it's harder for them to get around. know, whatever it is that you want to do, there is no magical someday. It's now. You have to do those things now to give you the quality of life that makes you excited to wake up in the morning and work.

Well, a lot of people love their work. That's not what you're just here for, right? That's a piece of it. It's not all of it.

Melanie Wilson (48:40)

Yes, we are more than the work. So looking at the energy that people have and that blocked feeling, do you find that sometimes people can feel unstuck and less blocked in terms of feeling light? For me, I think that sometimes that stuck feeling can literally be like perhaps not moving freely or

just pretty much like a numb feeling. I don't know if that's what it is for everybody, but for something like that, do you find that people are freed up from whatever it might feel like when they are bringing those human experiences back into their day and week?

Lisa Gornall (49:14)

Mm-hmm.

100%. 100%. The reason

that we feel stuck is because we're not doing the things that we want to do. We're doing the things that we think we have to do in the ways that we have to do them. But really, even when people have like a traditional nine to five job or whatever it is, who is saying that you have to work more? The more you work, the more work people are going to give you because they think that you want it.

They're like, well, this person will get it done. They don't think about you on the outside world or how you feel or what are you giving up to do all these things? They're just like, they're doing all this work. I'll keep giving them more. And if we have to prove I am worthy, I am enough, I am love, I'm going to do all these things, we are so lost because we're not here to only work. Nobody is here to only work.

Melanie Wilson (50:23)

What is the proving? I'm curious. Have you seen people either trying to rescue everybody or trying to be rescued? I think the damsel in distress mentality might happen sometimes and also the opposite, like people wanting to be the hero. Have you seen that a lot?

Lisa Gornall (50:43)

Yes, because that gives validation to those feelings. Like I am worthy. Look at what I just did today or I am enough. I helped them with this or whenever it may be, right? So we want to make sure that we're always coming back to why am I doing this? What is the cost to me? Do I need to do this? And usually the answer is no. And even as a medium, you know,

My mom used to call me nosy when I was little in the grocery store because I'd be in the cart and I would be in everybody's business. Right? I'm just in the grocery store, just reading all the energy. And I would ask questions to people that I should not be asking. I would say things that I shouldn't be saying because I didn't know any better. Right? I was just a young child in the grocery cart. I'm like five or six years old, right? Just doing my thing. It's not my job to be out there trying to fix everybody. Most people don't want to be fixed.

They want to stay where they're at. Even if they're miserable, even if they're complaining to their friends, most people don't want to make a change until they are so uncomfortable. They have to do something different.

Melanie Wilson (51:53)

my goodness. Do people sometimes not realise that they are having that preference?

Lisa Gornall (52:00)

Well, you know that people, I mean, I can list off several people's names right now, but I won't because if they listen to this and they'll know. But I know several people who, know, even people that are like, at least I want to work with you. And like, I read their energy and they are stuck with the same thing for years. For years. Because just because we know something's wrong.

Sometimes there's this comfort in, I understand what's happening right now. Like this feels comfortable. I'm afraid to make that leap. I'm afraid to do something differently. Or I don't think I can have what I want to have. There's all these different things that hold us back and keep us stuck. And we've got to decide, am I more miserable than this uncomfortableness where I'm hating my life and complaining all the time? Is this worse than taking a risk and seeing if things can be better?

Melanie Wilson (52:52)

Absolutely. Absolutely. And that pattern, that pattern can be a fear. It can be a feeling. Sometimes I think what I can draw upon is we kid ourselves. And so we, we have to sometimes look beyond our own denial. And I think that's where people like you and others

Lisa Gornall (53:10)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Wilson (53:22)

come in drawing on my own frame of reference for a second. I remember so early on, mean, I could talk about more recent things, but very early on when I started learning how to present, people said that I looked nervous and I thought, but I don't feel scared of this, but there was some sort of lightiness or flittering. was this, they could sense something. And

Lisa Gornall (53:46)

Mm-hmm.

Melanie Wilson (53:48)

It was like this inner fear and very occasionally in life, people said just occasionally, you seem scared. And so perhaps sometimes people don't realize that they are holding onto the fears. And have you seen that sometimes with the people you work with, they are not seeing their own limitations?

Lisa Gornall (54:15)

We don't see our own limitations because they, even though they're holding us back, and I always describe fears as like they're like pulling on your shoulders and they're literally holding you back. You're not going to see them unless you talk to somebody who's helping you see it objectively. You know, I watch a lot of dating shows with my girls because they're, they're college age, they're 21 and 23. And I think it's fun. And we talk about the relationships and like all the things. And you know, on these dating shows,

They always go to like their friends who have the same perspectives and the same views and they keep you small, right? They say that you are the sum of the five people that you spend the most time with. And I've said this to my clients and they've been like, wow, these people are in the office or these people are here and like, this is who I'm with. And I'm like, but you chose for those people to be in the office. Like you hired them, you brought them in. But it's true. You're not going to see bigger.

than the amount of people that are around you because they're going to usually side with you. Most of the time friends aren't challenging you. Maybe you need to go to a sibling to get challenged or, you know, hire somebody to help you see more objectively. But the power comes in being objective and saying, Oh, I didn't even know that was there. Yeah, that is guiding me. I don't want that to guide me anymore. And that's where the power is.

Melanie Wilson (55:39)

Yes, you are not the first one to say that some people can become a yes man. I assume that phrase is used over there as well. It's a bit gendered, but there are forms of a yes man or reaffirming. And these days people say that AI might do that, but also our friends can do that. And I think what you're saying is very significant because

Lisa Gornall (55:47)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Melanie Wilson (56:08)

People are realizing we need to reconsider who we're surrounded by and who we draw upon. So there has to be a way to level up and, and the, the comparison that I want to use for what you're saying is I'm a little bit careful with those free networking groups. They're lovely and it's a good mingle, but have you said to that as well that sometimes

Lisa Gornall (56:32)

Uh-huh.

⁓

100%. They're called, I like to call them, well, here we call them freeple, like free people, freeple. They often have a lower energy vibration because they're not willing to really do anything or move forward and whatever is the cheapest, easiest, even if it's not getting them anywhere, that's kind of where they stay.

Melanie Wilson (57:02)

That really is. And that's why I've been so reluctant to, gosh, I'm saying this in a recording. I'm so reluctant to do free events. I mean, people do that sometimes, but I think the reluctance and feel free to give an energetic perspective on this. really worry that when you give people a lot for nothing, then that's what they expect. And I say that they don't.

Lisa Gornall (57:26)

They don't value it. Well, they don't value it either. They

don't. I can give people the most amazing advice on how to be on their best path and what they need to do. And if they don't pay me for it, they don't do it. It's crazy. Like when they started like all like the higher ticketing coaching and like all of this stuff, I was like, I don't know. I don't know. But there is something to be said about it because if you get something for free,

you don't value it and you're not going to do anything with it. But if you're paying for something, you're investing money that you've earned through time and energy and resources, and you are more likely to participate and to do something new.

Melanie Wilson (58:12)

Yes. Yes. You invest more of your mental attention. You have more at stake as a reason to take action. Absolutely. And that's why I've seen sure some people will. The example I'll give is someone that I look up to as an ideal role model had over here, a one-off free gathering. that's fine. But I, but

Lisa Gornall (58:41)

It still messes with it.

Melanie Wilson (58:42)

I don't.

But I think that it was still by this thing and come along and it wasn't completely, it wasn't assumed that we are putting absolutely nothing into it at all. And also we are giving our attention. We might've looked at a lot of the content, but I think when we're giving absolutely nothing to something, ⁓ you know, I think.

Lisa Gornall (59:15)

We don't see the value.

Melanie Wilson (59:15)

what we're talking about

here. No, no, and what we're describing here is bless them so much. Bless the ones who gather these communities for free. But then I look, to be honest, I think sometimes people who go to those things are stretching the definition of what those communities are even about. And look, to each their own, it will still be ⁓

way to be around human beings and not be isolated. That's great. But we're talking about leveling up. And what we're saying is that when we want to challenge ourselves and reach the next level, really find abundance, then we're going to do that by putting something in and not expecting something for nothing.

Lisa Gornall (1:00:07)

100 % I agree with that completely. I've seen it so many times.

Melanie Wilson (1:00:12)

seen that a lot. So a lot. I'm so curious to wind up a little bit because we reached an hour. I'm wondering, ⁓gosh, I'm wondering energetically, what do you say to people who are starting out as an independent business, kind of like how you are an independent business and they do want to protect their

Lisa Gornall (1:00:14)

I see that a lot.

Melanie Wilson (1:00:43)

professional energy so to speak, also there are triggers. What are three things that people can do, whether they are starting or growing, to look after themselves especially?

Lisa Gornall (1:00:58)

Yeah, so the first thing is always going to be to bring in white light. We talked about it earlier, white light to just balance and ground your energy. So before you send a client email, before you meet with somebody in person or online, before you do anything, ground balance and align your energy because even if people don't understand it, they are constantly reading your energy. So that's the first one. The second one, let go. Clear your energy, stop.

holding on to all the things. You're gonna hear a lot of no's. If it's a no, it's just not your person. It's not the right time, it's not the right whatever. Don't take it personally and mean that you have to stop. Let go of whatever is coming at you that doesn't feel right. Let go of the stress, let go of the worry. When we worry about something, we put gray energy on it and you don't wanna put anything gray in your business. Love the color gray, it's one of my branding colors, but energetically, we don't put gray on anything. And the third thing is

Boundaries. Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. Boundaries are completely useless if we don't set them and enforce them. You need to have boundaries around how you're spending your time. Your clients, like, don't over give to them. If they're paying for an hour, give them an hour. They have something else to do and you're keeping them from doing it, right? Make sure you have boundaries around the amount of hours you're working. Don't work on the weekends. Whenever you're setting up, use boundaries to help you get there more easily and effortlessly.

Melanie Wilson (1:02:28)

Use boundaries. That is great advice. And the positive boundary that we have found is I feel like I get to talk about this with you all day. And it's nice to set the expectation of that hour for the listener and for us. This has been so fascinating. It is the first time talking to someone who does this kind of work. Thank you so much for shining a light on

Lisa Gornall (1:02:37)

Hahaha

Melanie Wilson (1:02:55)

what you do and what we can all learn and how we can let go.

Lisa Gornall (1:03:01)

Let go. Let go and be.

Melanie Wilson (1:03:05)

Thank you so much, Lisa.

Lisa Gornall (1:03:07)

Thank you.