The Non-Billable Podcast

James Hacking and Mike Estill from Kindleworth join the show to unpack one of the more salient shifts in Big Law right now: senior partners leaving large firms to launch specialist practices - and why the market is suddenly making that move feel much more doable.

They explain Kindleworth’s model: helping partners with client followings set up boutique or specialist firms “of their design”, then running the day-to-day operational backbone once the doors are open. The conversation digs into some of the best-known projects they’ve been involved in, including Pallas and the rapid Rosenblatt spin-out, and what those launches reveal about how quickly new firms can be stood up when the right pieces are in place.

A big theme is friction, and how to remove it. Hacking and Estill argue that better access to capital, dramatically improved tech, and a growing pool of partners who don’t fit neatly inside the strategic priorities of ever-bigger global firms. They talk about conflicts in the broad sense - not just classic conflicts of interest, but conflicts of strategy, pricing and business model - and why that opens space for focused firms built around a portable book of business and a clear vision.

The episode also looks ahead: why Burford Capital invested in Kindleworth, what a US expansion could look like, and how technology and outside capital could enable a new breed of “scale specialist” firms. The practical takeaway is simple: if you’ve got the itch to go it alone, don’t be scared of exploring it - because the fastest way to get clarity is to start having the right conversations.

To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/

Chapters

00:01 Introduction

01:20 Kindleworth Origins & Founder Backgrounds

02:20 What Kindleworth Does & Who It’s For

03:56 High-Profile Launches & the Rosenblatt Rescue

05:17 Burford Capital & Funding Law Firm Spin-Outs

08:08 Why Kindleworth Is Taking the Model to the US

12:11 Why Starting Fresh Beats Fixing Big Law

14:13 Which Practice Areas Are Ripe for Breakaways

18:18 Advice for Partners Thinking of Leaving

26:03 Pricing Pressure, AI & New Firm Economics

38:53 The Upside: Freedom, Ownership & Building Legacy

About Non-Billable

Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.

Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

John Quinn is one of the most influential figures in modern Big Law. In this episode, he reflects on how Quinn Emanuel grew from a four-lawyer spin-out in Los Angeles into the world’s leading litigation-only firm - which is constantly rated as the the “most feared” firm.

Quinn explains that the disputes-only model wasn’t fully formed on day one, but became a powerful differentiator once the firm realised that “we do one thing and we think we’re the best at that,” rather than trying to be everything to everybody.

A central theme of the conversation is why specialisation - particularly being willing to act against the world’s largest commercial banks - created an “unmet need in the marketplace” that full-service firms couldn’t fill because of conflicts. Quinn also discusses how that focus helped build internal cohesion: “we’re all litigators,” he says, which avoids the fragmentation he sees inside large full-service partnerships.

Quinn offers a candid comparison between litigation in the US and the UK, from the power of depositions and jury trials to the cost structures and role of regulators like the DOJ. He also shares his perspective on the evolution of Big Law, including rising concentration at the top end, the erosion of lockstep, the growth of non-equity partnerships, and why he thinks the business of law itself “hasn’t changed much,” despite constant talk of transformation.

The episode closes with Quinn’s views on AI, private equity investment in law firms, and what actually makes a great lawyer.

Chapters

00:01 Introduction

00:55 On launching Law Disrupted and staying busy

03:38 Founding Quinn Emanuel and the early years

05:02 Why Quinn Emanuel became a litigation only firm

08:14 Suing the banks and finding an unmet market niche

09:40 Opening London before the financial crisis

10:07 Building the world’s largest patent litigation practice

11:51 US vs UK litigation and the power of depositions

16:04 Costs, risk and why US litigation works differently

20:52 How Big Law has changed and why the strongest firms win

22:23 Why law is a “stupid business” structurally

24:26 Lockstep, partner pay and the rise of superstar compensation

33:14 Private equity, external capital and law firm ownership

35:11 Why AI won’t replace litigators anytime soon

40:26 What makes a great lawyer and why judgment matters most

About Non-Billable

Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.

Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

Pierson Ferdinand launched in January 2024 in what it says was the largest law firm debut in US history - starting with around 130 partners and growing to more than 270 in under two years. In this episode, co-founders Michael Pierson and Joel Ferdinand explain the model behind what they call an “AI-native,” fully distributed, partner-only law firm.

They break down how the structure works: no physical offices, every lawyer signs a partnership agreement, and compensation is decided by a formula-based algorithm that updates in real time. Partners keep a far greater share of their billings than in Big Law, with Michael noting that most lawyers who join “earn 2 to 3x what they were earning” at traditional firms. Pay is completely transparent: every partner can see every other partner’s earnings inside the firm’s internal app.

A big part of the model is technology. The firm mandates firm-wide licences for Harvey AI and uses additional tools across the business to automate both back-office processes and junior-level work - something they say they’ve “replaced almost all of” already. AI is now part of standard workflows: summarising due diligence, producing first drafts, organising deal terms and creating client-ready matrices and charts.

Michael and Joel also discuss their London expansion - already more than 20 fee-earners and growing - and their recruitment pitch: a chance to escape the traditional hierarchy, avoid massive infrastructure costs, and build a practice with more autonomy and more upside. “Happy lawyers make better lawyers,” Joel says. “We’ve been purpose-built for people who want something different.”

Chapters

00:01 Introduction

01:00 Introducing Pierson Ferdinand & the Founders

02:20 How the Firm Launched as the Largest Debut in US History

03:37 Inside the Distributed, Partner-Only Model

04:29 How Partnership, Compensation & the “Pro Algorithm” Work

06:48 Why Remote-First Makes the Economics Work

07:22 Firm vs Partner Clients & How Work Is Shared

08:40 How Matters Are Staffed Without Associates

10:11 Horizontal Integration & Internal Work-Sharing

11:16 The Pitch to Clients: Big-Law Quality at One-Third Less

13:01 The Firm’s AI Strategy - Harvey & Beyond

15:58 Could This Model Work Without AI?

17:13 What Lawyers Want: Frustrations With Traditional Big Law

18:23 London Launch: Practice Areas & Early Momentum

21:14 Competing in London’s Hyper-Competitive Market

22:19 The Pitch to London Laterals

24:17 Can Partners Earn as Much as at Kirkland or Paul Weiss?

27:02 Radical Transparency: Everyone Sees Everyone’s Pay

28:02 The Big Catch - Why This Model Isn’t for Everyone

30:08 Growth Plans for the Next Five Years

31:43 Culture, Community & Why “Happy Lawyers Make Better Lawyers”

About Non-Billable

Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.

Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

In this episode, we speak with Simon Leaf - a former Mishcon de Reya partner who has launched Three Points Law, a tech-enabled boutique focused on technology, sport and commercial/IP work alongside fellow former Mishcon lawyer Tom Murray.

After 15 years in Big Law, Simon left to build a firm that uses AI from day one and is structured for the kind of fast, high-volume commercial work he handles.

Simon explains why the traditional model no longer fits. As his hourly rate rose and teams grew around him, he felt further from clients and constrained by incentives tied to billable hours. At Three Points, he’s leaning into value-driven pricing and using AI to cut out most junior-level work so he and co-founder Tom can stay close to clients and move faster.

He shares how the firm is using Legora and other AI tools across the workflow - from business development and fee proposals to standardised contract review processes. The tech isn’t perfect, he says, but in the hands of experienced lawyers it’s powerful enough that he’s “100%” confident it replaces the need for junior hires. The early traction has been strong enough that they’re already recruiting senior lawyers instead.

Simon also breaks down the mechanics of starting a modern boutique: partnering with Excello for back-office and regulatory support, avoiding external capital to stay client-focused, and building a culture where he can do high-quality work without the pressures of Big Law. His advice to others thinking of making the leap? If you have the relationships and the appetite to do things differently, “go for it.”

Chapters

00:01 Introduction

01:00 Simon’s Background

01:56 Why Three Points Law?

03:09 Life at Mishcon & Leading the Sports Group

03:46 Inside Premier League Player Contracts

06:23 Why Big Law No Longer Fit

09:10 The Billable Hour Problem

10:58 Going All-In on AI from Day One

13:23 How AI Replaces Junior Work

16:23 Moving Away from the Billable Hour

19:12 Why Human Lawyers Still Matter

20:18 Will More Boutiques Break Away?

21:58 Three Points’ Vision and Culture

23:18 How They Set Up the Firm

27:41 Advice for Aspiring Boutique Founders

About Non-Billable

Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.

Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

Alongside Harvey, Legora has quickly become a frontrunner in the legal AI platform race, offering lawyers a suite of productivity tools for contract review, drafting, legal research and large-scale document analysis. Its rise has been startlingly fast.

Founded just two years ago, Legora hit a $1.8 billion valuation in its October funding round and has signed a wave of major UK firms this year alone.

Today on the podcast, we’re joined by Alex Fortescue-Webb, Legora’s head of UK and Ireland and head of legal engineering. Alex began his career as an M&A lawyer at CMS before moving into legal operations and managed services roles at BCG, Axiom, Thomson Reuters and EY.

Alex breaks down what Legora actually does: reviewing and comparing documents in seconds, handling heavy diligence exercises, and assisting with drafting directly inside Word. He also talks through the current limits of legal AI - especially the challenge of missing context - and why complex tasks still need to be broken down into smaller steps.

The conversation also covers Legora’s new Portal product, which lets firms expose richer, AI-powered work product to clients and offer controlled self-serve tools built on their own IP.

Alex argues this shift will make knowledge management even more critical as delivery becomes more productised. Finally, Alex discusses Legora’s rapid momentum with leading firms, the company’s US push and recent funding round, and how he views the competitive landscape. His focus: not beating rivals, but driving real adoption so AI becomes embedded in how lawyers actually work.

Chapters

00:01 Introduction

01:00 Welcome and Alex’s Role at Legora

01:13 Inside Legal Engineering: Ex-Lawyers as the Bridge to AI

03:20 What Legora Actually Does for Lawyers

05:41 SPA vs Term Sheet: A Practical Legora Use Case

07:48 Who’s Using Legora Most (And How Usage Varies)

09:10 Where Firms See the Biggest Time Savings

11:12 The Limits of Legal AI Today: Context and Zero Data Retention

13:13 Solving the Context Problem and Future Integrations

14:25 Portal: Rethinking Law Firm-Client Collaboration

19:01 Productising Know-How and the Future of Knowledge Management

22:20 Legora’s Growth Story and Adoption Playbook

25:45 Funding, US Expansion, Harvey - And the Legal AI Platform Race

About Non-Billable

Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.

Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

In this episode, we sit down with Camilla Wallace, senior partner of Wedlake Bell. A private client specialist who has spent 18 years at the firm, Camilla talks through Wedlake Bell’s evolution from a sub-20 partner outfit to a headcount of more than 350, why it has stayed a single-office City firm, and how it balances its 245-year heritage with a “1780 but contemporary” mindset.

Camilla explains how she defines the senior partner role today - part chair, part ambassador, part counsellor - and why that structure works alongside managing partner Martin Arnold. She also discusses the firm’s measured stance on international expansion and external capital, and how culture underpins many of those decisions.

A major theme of the conversation is mental health in the legal industry. Camilla shares the data she’s seeing through her work with LawCare, the pressures on junior lawyers, and the initiatives Wedlake Bell has launched, including anonymous learning reviews aimed at building psychological safety across teams.

Finally, Camilla turns to the ‘millionaire exodus’ and what’s driving high-net-worth clients out of the UK. She outlines the broader economic impact, her concerns about policy uncertainty, and her own surprisingly simple idea for tax reform.

Chapters

00:01 Introduction

01:10 Camilla’s Background

01:46 WedLake Bell's Growth and Market Position

04:41 Balancing Heritage and Innovation in Law

08:06 The Role of Technology and AI in Law

10:58 Growth Plans and Market Positioning

12:55 The Senior Partner Role in Modern Law Firms

15:46 Challenges in Leading a Modern Law Firm

19:29 Mental Health in the Legal Industry

24:27 The Changing Expectations of Junior Lawyers

27:28 The Impact of Wealth Migration from the UK

32:15 Taxation and Its Effects on the Legal Sector

About Non-Billable

Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.

Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

Private equity is closing in on the legal industry, and few people have a better vantage point than David Morley, former managing and senior partner at Allen & Overy.

After steering A&O through the 2008 financial crisis, Morley moved into the investment world, chairing a private equity firm and heading up Europe for one of the world’s biggest pension funds.

Earlier this year, he teamed up with fellow A&O alum Wim Dejonghe to launch a consultancy advising law firms and investors on the surge of capital eyeing the profession.

In this episode, David explains why investor sentiment toward law firms has flipped “gradually, then suddenly.” He says private equity’s move into legal mirrors what happened in accountancy a decade ago - starting small before rapidly scaling once investors see proven success. “There’s a level of investor interest we’ve never seen before in the legal sector,” he says.

We talk about what this means for firms of all sizes - from smaller players under pressure to consolidate, to elite firms exploring capital as a growth tool. Morley breaks down how deals are structured, where money would actually go, and why capital brings more than funding.

He also reflects on the limits of the partnership model in funding innovation - and why looming tax and structural changes could accelerate a shift towards more corporate-style models. His message for firm leaders: whether or not you plan to take investment, you need to understand the forces driving it.

Chapters

00:01 Introduction

01:30 Introduction to David

03:06 Navigating the Financial Crisis

07:14 Lessons from Crisis Management

10:07 The Rise of External Investment in Legal

12:50 Changing Perceptions of Legal Investments

17:00 Market Dynamics and Future Trends in Legal Investments

23:23 The Competitive Landscape of Law Firms

24:19 Investment Opportunities in Legal Sector

25:25 The Role of Private Equity in Law Firms

29:43 Innovative Business Models in Legal Services

33:54 Understanding Private Equity Investments

37:34 Strategic Use of Capital in Law Firms

39:44 Private Equity vs. Traditional Financing

42:35 Future Trends in Legal

About Non-Billable

Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.

Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

In this episode, Siobhán Lewington, partner at leading legal headhunter Macrae, joins us to unpack what’s driving the lateral partner market in London.

A former Allen & Overy and Arthur Cox lawyer, Siobhán has more than two decades advising firms on partner hires and team moves giving her a unique view into how City law has changed.

She explains how the market has evolved from the “gentlemen’s agreement” era - when Magic Circle firms avoided poaching from one another - to today’s fiercely competitive landscape dominated by US players. We explore why private capital remains the engine of London’s growth, and what makes a truly competitive platform: from tax and competition support to leverage finance and associate bench strength.

Siobhán also breaks down the New York-London axis, the growing wave of transatlantic mergers, and how firms are positioning themselves in the race to join the global elite. She shares why money alone doesn’t move partners, the real purpose behind multi-year guarantees, and how firms can better integrate lateral hires for long-term success.

Finally, Siobhán offers advice for partners weighing a move - from identifying push and pull factors to finding a genuine sponsor at any prospective firm. Packed with insight on talent strategy and firm identity, this episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the current state of the London market.

Find out more about Macrae at their website: https://www.macrae.com/

Chapters

00:01 Introduction

01:00 Introduction to Siobhan and Macrae

02:05 Transition from Law to Recruitment

03:23 Evolution of the London Recruitment Market

07:03 Current State of the London Private Equity Market

11:00 Concentration Risks in Private Equity

13:52 The Changing Landscape of Law Firms

16:26 Growth Areas Beyond Private Capital

19:48 Litigation Market Dynamics

21:53 The New York-London Axis

22:15 Mergers and the New York-London Axis

28:34 The Mechanics of Partner Moves

40:09 Advice for Partners Considering a Move

43:28 Strategies for Firms to Attract Talent

About Non-Billable

Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.

Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

Harvey has become the poster child of the legal AI boom - used by over half of the top 100 US law firms and backed by more than $700 million in funding. But what does the startup actually do for lawyers day to day, and how is it turning hype into genuine impact inside Big Law firms?

In this episode, John Haddock, Harvey’s chief business officer and a former Stripe exec, takes us inside the company’s rapid scale-up. He explains how a 50-person team of ex-Big Law lawyers works directly with firms to embed AI into real workflows, turning the platform into what he calls “a port of first call” for legal teams.

Haddock also lifts the lid on Harvey’s Advanced Legal Researchers - a team of former Big Law lawyers who benchmark and fine-tune every new model release through what the company calls its Big Law Bench. He shares why data, not hype, is the biggest constraint in AI performance, and how Harvey’s partnership with LexisNexis is helping to close that gap.

We also talk about Harvey’s recent investment from European private equity firm EQT, what the company’s expansion into Europe means for the legal market, and why Haddock saw a viral Reddit thread questioning Harvey’s adoption as a positive sign. “It’s proof we’ve crossed into the mainstream,” he says.

Chapters

00:01 Introduction

01:00 Background on John

03:30 Understanding Harvey's Product and Customer Engagement

06:12 The Role of Chief Business Officer at Harvey

09:02 How Harvey Empowers Lawyers

12:11 Partnership with LexisNexis

17:54 Fine-Tuning AI Models for Legal

21:38 The Buy vs. Build Debate in Legal Tech

24:20 EQT Investment and European Market Expansion

26:37 Competition in the Legal AI Landscape

28:28 Scaling Operations and Talent Acquisition

31:39 Onboarding and Change Management in Legal AI

32:41 Contextualising Legal AI for Enhanced Productivity

36:12 The Future of Integrated Legal Workspaces

38:36 The Reddit Thread and Building Trust in AI

42:24 Challenges of Scaling and Hiring in a Growing Company

About Non-Billable

Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.

Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

Few people have had a closer view of the modern City law market than Charlie Geffen. As former senior partner at Ashurst, he helped build one of London’s top private equity practices before moving to Gibson Dunn in 2014, where he became global co-chair of private equity.

Today, he splits his time between chairing the taskforce getting the UK ready for T+1 settlement of financial trades, a senior position at the University of Surrey and occasionally weighing in on the big debates shaping the profession - earlier this year, he sparked discussion with a letter to the Financial Times, defending the decision by some firms to strike deals with the Trump administration.

In this conversation, Charlie looks back at four decades of transformation in Big Law - from globalisation and specialisation to the rise of US firms that now dominate the global elite. He explains why American firms’ structure, scale and domestic market have given them a lasting advantage, and why, in his words, “the global Magic Circle is entirely American.”

We also discuss the major transatlantic mergers reshaping the landscape, including A&O Shearman and Herbert Smith Freehills-Kramer Levin, and what the likes of Ashurst can realistically do to compete. Charlie reflects on his own experience leading Ashurst through its growth years, its failed US merger talks, and how the firm ultimately found its footing through reinvention.

Finally, he shares his take on the next phase of disruption: how AI and private equity could drive a wave of consolidation, why law firms will need far fewer people in future, and why, despite it all, he still sees enduring value in the partnership model - and in knowing exactly what your firm is, and what it isn’t trying to be.

Chapters

00:01 Introduction

01:30 Evolution of the Legal Market

06:45 Comparative Analysis of US and UK Law Firms

09:44 The Rise of US Firms

12:27 Current Landscape of UK Law Firms

17:26 Strategic Insights for UK Firms

19:45 The Rise of Private Equity

22:03 Strategic Decisions in Law Firms

27:23 Transatlantic Mergers and Their Implications

29:45 Big Law Firms Response To Trump Executive Orders

37:51 The Future of the Legal Market: AI and Consolidation

About Non-Billable

Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech.

Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk