The Outpost by UserEvidence

The TL;DR

Are you tired of battling churn and struggling to retain customers?

Today, Sy Pendergast (Goldcast), Lauren Alt Kishpaugh (Pendo), and Myles Bradwell (UserEvidence) get real about what actually causes customers to churn and break the myth that churn is just a Customer Success problem.

What’s working in B2B marketing:

COLLABORATIVE CUSTOMER SUCCESS STRATEGIES

Bridge the gap between Marketing and Customer Success. Discover how leveraging positive customer stories and refining your ICP can drastically reduce churn. Collaboration is key—unite your teams to drive real, impactful results.

What’s not working in B2B marketing:

OPERATING IN SILOS

Ditch the isolated approach. It’s time to bring Marketing, Sales, and Customer Success together. When teams work in harmony, you understand customer needs better and provide value that keeps them coming back.

The key takeaways

• Align Marketing and Customer Success: Break down silos between Marketing and Customer Success to ensure a unified approach to customer retention and expansion. Collaboration drives better results and creates a better experience for the customer.
• Understand the real causes of churn: Churn isn't just a Customer Success issue. Factors like product fit, pricing, and timing play crucial roles. To minimize churn, make sure your product is the right fit at the right price and time.
• Focus on leading indicators: Regularly review leading indicators like weekly active users or assets produced to measure the effectiveness of your retention strategies. This helps identify issues early and allows for timely adjustments.
• Leverage positive customer stories: Use success stories from your current customers to build trust and credibility. Highlighting these stories can help you retain existing customers and attract new ones.
• Continuous feedback loop: Establish a continuous feedback loop between Sales, Marketing, and Customer Success. Regular communication helps identify and solve issues early, ensuring all teams are aligned and working towards common goals.

The things to listen for

[00:00] - Intro to churn and retention

[02:20] - Marketing and Customer Success misalignment issues

[08:19] - Causes of churn in the B2B SaaS world

[14:25] - Sales' role in preventing churn

[18:28] - Using Customer Success data for Marketing

[24:03] - Collaboration across departments

[31:48] - Importance of net retention rate (NRR)

[38:52] - Real-time customer feedback loop

[43:36] - Aligning Marketing with customer needs

[49:53] - The future of Marketing and Customer Success

The TL;DR

Is your homepage sending the right message?

Robert Kaminski (Fletch) didn’t think so about Calendly and respectfully called them out on LinkedIn. Jeff Hardison, Calendly’s Head of Product Marketing, defended himself in the comment section. We invited them onto the show to continue the debate.

What’s working in B2B marketing:

MATCHING YOUR HOMEPAGE TO YOUR AUDIENCE

Let's be real—your homepage isn't just prime real estate; it's the front line of your marketing battlefield. In a world where most B2B SaaS homepages look alike, the ones hitting the mark are specifically tailored to an audience and what they’re looking for.

What’s not working in B2B marketing:

SELLING THE BENEFITS

Marketers and salespeople, especially in B2B SaaS, are over-indexing on this concept of selling the outcomes. While it has a lot of merit, it might not be the right message. Instead, we're putting too much emphasis on what closes the deal and forgetting about why someone came to the homepage in the first place.

The key takeaways

• Messaging for business outcomes: Move beyond product features. Focus on the tangible impact on the business.
• Homepage strategy: Don’t be misleading. Make sure your homepage communicates clearly who you’re for, and how’ll they’ll benefit.
• Balancing PLG and Sales-led motions: Balance minimalism and compelling narratives to drive freemium adoption and bigger deals.

The things to listen for:

[00:00] Intro

[05:12] Creating a separate storytelling mechanism for Calendly

[13:22] Motivating stakeholders and measuring success

[20:30] Balancing product-led and sales-led marketing

[34:42] Maintaining a product-led growth strategy

[40:58] Aligning marketing message with business goals

The TL;DR

Are you sick of spinning average products into marketing magic? Do you feel like a “poo polisher” as April calls it?

Today, April Dunford (Ambient Strategy), Kyle Lacy (Jellyfish), and Marcus Andrews (Pendo.io) dive into storytelling and how to write stories your sales team will actually use.

What’s working in B2B marketing:

TAILOR-MADE, ENTHRALLING STORYTELLING

Draw in your prospects with a compelling narrative that screams relevance. Skip the generic fluff. Dive deep into the psyche of your customer. Make them the hero of your story.

What’s not working in B2B marketing:

WRITING BY COMMITTEE

Chuck out the too-many-cooks approach. Embrace a dedicated "words person." Quality trumps quantity, always. When storytelling is focused and centralized, your message not only resonates—it reverberates.

The key takeaways:

• The importance of positioning: Effective marketing starts with strong positioning. Understanding your competition, unique value proposition, and ideal customer fit are crucial for creating compelling stories and pitches.
• Tailored storytelling: Craft customized, engaging stories that resonate with your audience. Skip the generic fluff and make your prospects the heroes.
• Adaptability and regular review: To stay relevant and effective, regularly revisit and update your positioning and storytelling based on market changes, competitor actions, and customer feedback.
• Internal alignment and buy-in: Ensure alignment across your organization, especially with sales leaders. Their buy-in is crucial for successful implementation and consistency in messaging. Engage executives early in the storytelling process to secure their support.
• Measuring effectiveness: Use both quantitative metrics (conversion rates, deal sizes) and qualitative feedback (customer reactions, sales team input) to measure the effectiveness of your storytelling.

The things to listen for:

[00:00] Intro

[02:02] "Polishing the poo" in marketing

[05:23] Challenges of corporate messaging and writing by committee

[09:42] Value proposition and its importance in storytelling

[12:04] Who owns the story in B2B marketing?

[16:38] Importance of differentiated value

[19:56] Revisiting and regularly updating positioning

[24:48] Adapting messaging to market changes

[26:29] Getting internal buy-in on storytelling

[28:53] Testing and iterating on new pitches

[34:36] Aligning sales and marketing teams with effective messaging

[39:12] Measuring the effectiveness of your story

The TL;DR

Features, benefits, or outcomes - where should your marketing strategy zoom in? With a sea of opinions out there, here's the lowdown from some folks who really know their stuff.

Anthony Pierri (FletchPMM), Emma Stratton (Punchy), and Chris Orlob (pclub.io) tell us where to shift our focus in messaging to B2B companies to be successful.

What’s working in B2B marketing:

CONVERSATIONAL, CRYSTAL CLEAR MESSAGING Speak plainly, or you might as well speak alien. Keep it simple, keep it straight, and watch visitors turn into leads.

What’s not working in B2B marketing:

MIMICKING THE GIANTS

Find strength in your niche market. When it comes to start-ups; narrow & deep will outdo wide & shallow.

The key takeaways:

• Tailor your messaging to the audience's pain points: Understand and directly address the specific problems that your target audience is facing. Mirroring customers' pain in messaging helps build trust and understanding. Using visual aids and credible niche targeting to resonate with risk-averse buyers is extremely effective.
• Contextualize everything based on where your buyers are: This is the technology adoption lifecycle curve comes in handy. Messaging should be customized to appeal to different groups, from early adopters who might prefer customizable solutions to the late majority looking for pre-built, low-risk options.
• Humanize your message: The "barbecue exercise," a strategy to strip away jargon to create a human-oriented, relatable message can significantly differentiate a company from competitors who rely on dry, indistinct language.
• Balance outcome and feature-driven messaging: While many believe that leading with outcomes is the most effective, focusing on the "what" and "how" makes messaging more memorable and effective. Send a balanced message that appeals to the intelligence of sophisticated buyers yet remains specific and tangible.
• Niche-ing down can lead to bigger opportunities: Achieving relevance often means excluding a larger part of the market to focus on a specific niche. A focus on a niche market, like Tesla, led to significantly larger opportunities, a key strategy, especially for early-stage startups. This reinforces the power and potential of targeting and growing from a narrowly defined market.

The things to listen for:

[00:00] Intro

[10:30] Be specific and differentiate in crowded markets

[15:35] People need a branding agency for tech

[18:24] Effective sales messaging focuses on customer pain

[25:09] Focusing on sales is challenging in this economic climate

[26:57] Product expansion leads to strategic complexity and stress

[30:37] Create content, target niche, reduce risks, and find success

[35:11] Startups can succeed by owning niche markets

[37:32] Use provocative messaging to engage pragmatist buyers

[45:19] Avoid dry business speak & write conversationally

[46:12] Encourage natural communication & simplify complex jargon

[49:43] Jargon's value in specific contexts

The TL;DR

Today, we're all about research—audiences, customers, markets, you name it. No fluff, just the raw truth.

Amanda Natividad (SparkToro), MJ Smith (CoLab), and Evan Huck (UserEvidence) talk about research (or lack thereof) for many B2B companies.

What’s working in B2B marketing:

CREATIVITY + CUSTOMER INSIGHT

Research needs to validate creative ideas. Hear how these three avoid marketing myopia.

What’s not working in B2B marketing:

INCONSISTENT RESEARCH Research isn’t a one-off activity. Don’t fall victim to the trap of institutional knowledge.

The key takeaways:

1. Understand the full scope of audience influences: B2B marketers should move beyond simple demography and firmographics to include the broader context of what influences their audience, including peers, competitors, and societal trends.
2. Blend creativity with customer insight: Although creativity is vital for differentiating your brand and marketing efforts, it needs to be backed by solid customer insights. B2B marketers should leverage research to validate creative ideas, ensuring they are addressing the real needs and challenges of their customers.
3. Utilize a mix of research methods: A combination of quantitative data and qualitative insights is crucial for a well-rounded understanding of your customers. Advances in technology are enabling richer qualitative insights at scale, but marketers must also look for the non-obvious insights that come from in-depth, tailored research conversations.
4. Consistent research is key: Research is a continuous process. B2B marketers need to stay on top of changes in customer behavior, industry trends, and underlying motivations by making research an ongoing practice.
5. Democratize access to customer feedback: In many organizations, customer feedback becomes siloed within certain departments. B2B marketers should advocate for democratized access to customer feedback across the organization to allow for diverse perspectives and to gain a broader understanding of customer needs and challenges.

The things to listen for:

00:00 Intro

05:27 Frequent research ensures institutional knowledge remains accurate

09:11 Audience research: interviews, surveys, content consumption

10:38 Balancing creative risk-taking in marketing

16:07 Be specific

19:22 B2B marketing relies on assumptions, which are often boring

20:15 Identify the correct target for potential sales

26:12 Use cross-functional customer engagement for better insights

27:14 Scarcity of customer feedback presents challenges for companies

34:20 AI-driven insights

37:35 Summarizing caller data to identify recurring pain points

42:10 Acquisition brought strategic MBAs, but lacked practicality

43:00 Closing

What's the secret sauce for a killer revenue game plan?

Join Mark and the squad—Emily Kramer (MKT1), Adam Goyette (Growth Union), and Jeff Ignacio (Regrow Ag)—as they spill the tea on crafting killer strategic revenue blueprints. They're not just talking shop; they're revolutionizing how we think about growth.

What’s working in revenue models:

ALIGNMENT IS KEY

Clear team goals aligned with company objectives create ownership. Big takeaway for revenue growth models - alignment is key.

What’s not working in revenue models:

POOR PLANNING PROCESSES

Planning meetings? More like blame games and snoozefests, where real strategy talk gets swapped for box-ticking. They're the reason solid plans and forecasts are MIA—everyone's too busy fighting over credit. It's a team effort, not a solo show.

The key takeaways:

• Align goals with team ownership: B2B marketers should set clear goals and ensure that each team member feels a sense of ownership toward those goals. Doing so aligns projects with the business's overall objectives and drives team members to work effectively towards common targets.
• Embrace full-funnel reporting: Marketers must adopt comprehensive planning and reporting practices, looking at the full marketing funnel rather than just top-level metrics. This full-funnel approach enables a better understanding of campaign effectiveness and customer journey, ultimately driving smarter investment decisions and growth.
• Practice realistic, detailed revenue forecasting: Instead of relying on optimistic assumptions or linear growth models, B2B marketers need to create detailed revenue models. These should include specific forecasts for various marketing channels and account for seasonality, market changes, and potential diminishing returns to set realistic growth expectations.
• Foster cross-functional collaboration: B2B marketing teams should work closely with sales, finance, product, and customer service teams to ensure alignment and consistent messaging. This collaboration is critical for setting honest and mutually beneficial goals, ensuring foundational reporting, and executing strategic plans successfully.
• Adapt to change with flexible planning: High turnover rates, unexpected market trends, and other challenges affect business operations. Marketers need to maintain flexibility in their revenue models and business plans, including ranges that allow for unexpected changes and continuous monitoring with feedback loops to make adjustments as necessary.

The things to listen for:

[00:00] Focusing on driving revenue

[03:17] Frustration with unproductive and contentious work meetings

[07:40 The high-stakes game of hiring and budgets

[10:56] Revenue models require detailed channel forecasts and planning

[17:41] Plan early with the top-down and bottom-up approach

[21:13] Honesty & reporting are key for planning success

[31:04] Organized planning processes are vital for successful businesses

[34:49] Team ownership of goals, accountability, and responsibility

[36:44] Tying the project list back to your goal

[39:56] Grateful for learning and open to follow-up

Adam Schoenfeld woke up and chose violence with his hot take on this one.

Adam (Keyplay) joins Trinity Nguyen (UserGems) and Jarod Greene (Vivun) to dig into some of the most common misconceptions around TAM, ICP, and ID’ing fit.

What’s working when defining your ICP:

LET DATA LEAD THE WAY Set it up in your CRM. Track your customers. What’s changed? Who’s churned? Why? Is our hypothesis for who’s a fit actually our best fit?

What’s not working when defining your ICP: OBSESSION OVER INTENT SIGNALS Fit > intent. For real.

Key Takeaways:

1. Importance of a Defined ICP: Precisely defining the Ideal Customer Profile (ICP) is crucial. Adam Schoenfeld stresses the need to establish clear parameters around the ICP to ensure sales and marketing efforts are aligned and focused. Trinity Nguyen's approach of regularly revisiting the ICP at User Gems illustrates the dynamic nature of ICPs and how companies must adapt to shifts in customer fit and market trends.
2. Patience with Strategy Implementation: Give new strategies time to take effect before making changes. Trinity Nguyen points out that particularly in a commercial SaaS context, it's important to allow time for the market to absorb and react to advertising efforts. The pitfall of frequently changing ICPs can be counterproductive and may not provide sufficient data on what works and what doesn’t.
3. Utilization of Multi-Source Feedback: Utilize both wins and losses to refine your ICP. Jarod Greene's insights into Vivint's process of refining their ICP by considering various attributes signal the importance of using diverse feedback channels. This informs a more strategic and adaptable approach to targeting customers.
4. Alignment Across Teams: Ensure alignment across all teams regarding the ICP. The importance of keeping sales, marketing, product development, and customer success teams on the same page regarding the ICP cannot be overstated. This unity ensures a cohesive go-to-market strategy and ensures that all customer-facing teams are targeting and supporting the same customer profile.
5. Focus on Fit Over Intent: Fit should be a priority over intent signals. While intent data platforms can suggest potential customer interest, understanding whether a lead truly fits the ICP is more valuable. The episode discusses the tendency of B2B marketers to over-prioritize intent signals, yet the panel agrees that a deeper understanding of the customer—including their challenges and fit within the ICP—is essential for effective marketing strategies.

Things to Listen for:

00:00 Deeply understand customers for building ideal profiles. 
05:02 Focus on serving the best customers effectively. 
09:46 Tracking customer criteria, part of company DNA. 
12:48 Learning to navigate variance for business success. 
15:07 Set boundaries, focus on strategic growth mindset. 
17:26 Challenges in using limited historical data explained. 
20:36 No's and not nows provide valuable insight. 
25:25 Rely on accurate CRM data for sales. 
27:27 Listening to gong recordings for sales improvement. 
30:59 Implement strategy into operations, test and analyze. 
34:05 Companies expand product offerings due to complexity. 
38:23 Champion needs to handle objections, targeted messaging. 
42:17 Team enjoys memes, aims for brand recognition.

B2B buying has evolved almost overnight…so why is B2B selling still running the same plays?

Nate Nasralla (Fluint), Rachel Shi (Metadata), and Mark Kosoglow (Catalyst Software) share their theories on why the sales playbooks in 2024 are still lagging, and the ways they’re changing the game within their own organizations.

What’s working in B2B selling:

GOING BEYOND SALES TRAINING Kobe took tap dancing lessons to strengthen his ankles. Arnold Schwarzenegger took ballet lessons to learn how to pose onstage. Going outside of your discipline gives you a better perspective and helps break tired plays.

What’s not working in B2B selling TRADITIONAL DISCOVERY CALLS ”Hey, what are the 3 biggest problems you’re facing right now?” - ask that, and your prospect is already zoned out. It’s time to find new tactics that will engage and impress as a first impression.

Key Takeaways:

1. Tailor Your Training: Rachel Shi underscored the importance of moving away from a one-size-fits-all model of sales training to a more tailored approach that addresses the nuances of B2B SaaS. B2B marketers should assess the specific needs of their sales team and customize their training programs to improve effectiveness.
2. Speak Your Buyer's Language: Rachel, Nate Nasralla, and Mark Kosoglow emphasized the significance of understanding and using the buyer's language within business cases and sales conversations. Marketers should ensure that sales tools and materials resonate with their target audience by aligning them with the buyer's internal terminology and perspective.
3. The Power of Polarizing Questions: The guest panel discussed the strategic approach of using polarizing questions early in the sales process to identify qualified prospects and position solutions effectively. Marketers should consider developing materials that assist the sales team in deploying these questions to uncover key customer pain points and motivations.
4. Prioritizing Empathy and Relationships: Nate highlighted that empathic accuracy is imperative for building genuine sales relationships, but it's often lacking. Marketers must foster an empathetic understanding of their potential buyers to craft campaigns and messaging that resonate on a human level.
5. Embrace the Deeper Discovery: Nate and Mark discussed the importance of engaging buyers with deep, pattern-breaking questions. Marketers should go beyond surface-level insights and leverage storytelling and illustrative examples in their strategies to provoke thoughtful buyer engagement and uncover the true drivers of purchase decisions.

Resources:

• How to Know a Person by David Brooks
• Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman

Things to Listen for:

00:00 Sales reps trained poorly in industrialized model. 
05:11 Building relationships requires understanding and empathic accuracy. 
08:58 Reps need mindset shift for effective sales. 
11:50 Rachel, do you do commission pieces? Summary: Discussion about sales and diversity in selling. 
15:24 Evaluating mental effort and fatigue throughout the day. 
18:38 System two thinking in complex deal dynamics. 
21:01 Engage individually, personalize outreach and follow-ups. 
26:13 Building business cases requires deep discovery conversations. 
29:59 Emphasize positioning, change, and asking effective questions. 
33:47 Clarify objections, redo role play to assess. 
36:45 Applicants share unique opinions and personal projects. 
40:32 Using written content helps shave sales time. 
41:26 Creating message together, internalized value in writing. 
45:26 Diving deep into buyer's language for solutions. 
48:29 Remember seeing Rachel's old business case. 
51:34 "Thanks for having us, of course."

Jen Allen-Knuth may have lost a few friends with this one.

Jen (DemandJen), Kaylee Edmondson (DemandLoops), and Jason Oakley (Productive PMM) share some of the biggest failings around creating, socializing, and iterating on GTM messaging that resonates.

What’s working for GTM messaging:

START WITH THE PROBLEM AND VALUE If you know your ICP, the problem you’re solving, and the value you’re bringing, your messaging will resonate. Period.

What’s not working for GTM messaging:
 CRAFTING IN A SILO Even if you’re your own ICP, don’t fall into the trap of not socializing your early messaging ideas and letting outside influence into your process

The key takeaways:

1. Trust and diagnosis in Sales: B2B marketers should empower prospects to self-diagnose their problems, thus fostering a trust-centered relationship. As Jen Allen-Knuth highlights, it is crucial to create an environment where customers can recognize and understand their pain points, rather than aggressively pushing products as solutions.
2. Internal alignment on messaging: Mark Huber stresses the importance of internal buy-in when it comes to new GTM messaging. Ensuring that influential figures, like the head of sales, are on board is crucial for consistent messaging adoption across the sales team, leading to a unified and effective market approach.
3. Data-driven Marketing strategies: Kaylee Edmonson's evolution in perspective on the value of product marketers underscores the necessity of good working relationships and the use of data in convincing teams of new strategies. Implementing any change, especially in messaging, should come with demonstrable results that support the strategy and help win over skeptics within the organization.
4. Targeting key Sales personnel: Jen's strategy of focusing on skeptics and top-performers to test new marketing approaches suggests that B2B marketers should identify and leverage internal influencers within the sales organization. These key individuals can provide valuable feedback and serve as advocates for the new messaging, aiding in wider team adoption.
5. The need for continuous feedback and adjustment: The discussion about the importance of ongoing feedback and adaptation, as echoed by all the guests, is a crucial takeaway for B2B marketers. Leveraging feedback from sales calls, involving marketing team members in the feedback loop, and adapting marketing strategies based on real-time sales experiences can significantly improve messaging relevance and impact.

Things to Listen for:

00:00 LinkedIn show featuring B2B SaaS experts & ideas. 
05:24 Logic-based journeys, client objections, and referrals. 
08:47 Avoid starting alone, in the dark, or mimicking competitors. 
12:57 Chili Piper's innovative product sold itself effectively. 
15:56 Balancing future vision with current challenges and sales. 
18:06 Exceptional marketers understand the value of persuasion. 
21:01 Inadequate context led to an unpleasant situation. 
23:28 Importance of aligning sales and marketing strategies. 
29:16 Jason fostered valuable work relationship, revealed industry insights. 
33:24 Teaching process for product launch and positioning. 
34:54 Feedback-driven approach improves sales messaging success. 
40:00 Enablement team and coaching improves sales effectiveness. 
41:47 Marketing team should listen to sales calls.

If you’ve come to hear Devin Reed at his spiciest, you’ve come to the right place.

Devin (Clari), Anthony Kennada (AudiencePlus), and Morgan J. Ingram (AMP) join host Mark Huber to talk very blatantly about the state of B2B content in 2024.

What’s working in B2B content:

MEASURING + ADAPTING
All 3 of the guys share their actual metrics of success for great content, and how to keep content plans in check based on the cold hard facts.

What’s not working in B2B content: 
CREATING FOR ALGORITHMS 
”Steal my template, bro” bros…beware. You’re not safe in this convo.

Key Takeaways:

• Differentiate Your Content: In the age of plagiarism and content regurgitation, B2B marketers are urged to create unique video content that showcases individual delivery and experiences, making it more difficult to duplicate and helping brands stand out.
• Focus on Authenticity: Authenticity in content creation has never been more critical, as social media is rife with exaggerated and false claims. Customers crave truthful and charismatic communication, which in turn can build real relationships and drive business growth.
• Emphasize Subject Matter Experts: Amplifying subject matter experts is crucial for B2B success. Marketers should incorporate experts into their content strategy - including internal executives and customers - to establish credibility and trustworthiness.
• Prioritize Charisma, Credibility, and Character: When evaluating potential influencers or brand ambassadors, B2B marketers should look for individuals who not only possess expertise but also embody charisma and character that align with the brand's reputation.
• Create for Humans, Not Algorithms: Marketers are encouraged to produce valuable content tailored to human interests rather than solely focusing on SEO and algorithm-driven engagement. Building brand awareness and thought leadership is about winning mind share, which can eventually lead to winning market share.

Things to Listen for:

00:00 Helping companies become media companies, creating categories.

04:30 "People want to feel great, do nothing."

08:16 Unique challenges arising from international content theft.

13:08 Content marketing for SEO in B2B explained.

13:59 Creating valuable content captures authentic audience attention.

19:12 Diverse content formats can enhance audience reach.

21:25 Corporate marketing and thought leadership driving revenue.

25:32 Amplifying experts and building media strategy.

28:27 Risk, credibility, and character are crucial elements.

32:10 Agree, build true advisor board for feedback.

36:34 Past advisory agreements consisted of equity deals.

38:47 Influential voices validated new product launch success.

43:35 Evaluate audience and pipeline growth for credibility.

44:26 Growing following, gating content to monetize.

48:52 Avoid online toxicity, focus on respectful disagreement.

51:15 Closing