Real-time payments occupy a unique niche in the payments industry, both for its diversity and its rapid growth. The Clearing House RTP® network processes more than $16 billion each quarter, and Zelle processes more than $120 billion. Direct push payments such as Mastercard Send and Visa Direct settle payments in less than thirty minutes and usually within seconds, and same-day Automated Clearing House (ACH) payments settle within hours.  

All these options have different use-case benefits and combine to create a very rich environment. However, this level of choice can confuse financial institutions (FIs) as they discern where to place their bets based on what their customers will find most important.  

To learn more about how FIs need multiple payment rails to achieve true payments innovation and why it is key for FIs to access rails through a unified “payments hub,” PaymentsJournal sat with Mark Majeske, SVP of Faster Payments at Alacriti, and Sarah Grotta, Director of Debit and Alternative Products Advisory Service at Mercator Advisory Group. 

PaymentsJournalWhy Banks and Credit Unions Need Multiple Real-Time Payments OptionsPaymentsJournal Why Banks and Credit Unions Need Multiple Real-Time Payments OptionsPaymentsJournaljQuery(document).ready(function ($){var settings_ap34859338 = { design_skin: "skin-wave" ,autoplay: "off",disable_volume:"default" ,loop:"off" ,cue: "on" ,embedded: "off" ,preload_method:"metadata" ,design_animateplaypause:"off" ,skinwave_dynamicwaves:"off" ,skinwave_enableSpectrum:"off" ,skinwave_enableReflect:"on",settings_backup_type:"full",playfrom:"default",soundcloud_apikey:"" ,skinwave_comments_enable:"off",settings_php_handler:window.ajaxurl,skinwave_wave_mode:"canvas",pcm_data_try_to_generate: "on","pcm_notice": "off","notice_no_media": "on",design_color_bg: "111111",design_color_highlight: "ef6b13",skinwave_wave_mode_canvas_waves_number: "3",skinwave_wave_mode_canvas_waves_padding: "1",skinwave_wave_mode_canvas_reflection_size: "0.25",skinwave_comments_playerid:"34859338",php_retriever:"https://www.paymentsjournal.com/wp-content/plugins/dzs-zoomsounds/soundcloudretriever.php" }; try{ dzsap_init(".ap_idx_379811_28",settings_ap34859338); }catch(err){ console.warn("cannot init player", err); } });

Banks Should Not Just Focus on One Payment Rail 

With the myriad choices available to FI executives, one might wonder why they do not simply focus on a one-stop-shop payment rail. “Not all rails have the same advantages,” Majeske explained. The RTP network, which was launched in 2017, covers 60% of the U.S. demand deposit account (DDA) market, so if a bank or credit union wants to cover the other 40%, it needs another payment rail. 

Other options have similar blind spots or unknowns. The FedNowSM Service is coming out in 2023 with high expectations but zero ubiquity. Conversely, ACH is well-established but generally does not process payments over the weekend. “I don’t think there is one rail out there that is going to satisfy everyone’s needs,” Majeske continued. “There has to be a level of flexibility within financial institutions and service providers to provide a broad number o...

The payments systems infrastructure at many traditional financial institutions — banks and credit unions — is showing its age at a time when new, nimble players are entering the space.

These lumbering systems, many of which were constructed 50 years ago for electronic funds transfers and card services, are being left behind entirely by fintechs, or they are being shored up with patchwork infrastructure additions and payments islands that can handle new authentication methods.

Whatever the case, it all adds up to an existential challenge for traditional financial institutions, one that was broken down in a conversation with PaymentsJournal by Jens Audenaert, Global Head of Payments Software at Diebold Nixdorf, and Tim Sloane, VP of Payments Innovation at Mercator Advisory Group.

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In their discussion, Audenaert and Sloane advocated for a move away from dated legacy systems to a cloud-based infrastructure, focusing on these key points:

* The inherent risks of legacy systems.* The primary drivers of modernization.* How to make the transition from legacy systems.* Key features financial institutions should seek in cloud-based infrastructure.

“The pace of changes in payments has been unbelievable in the last seven to ten years,” Sloane said. Meanwhile, he said, the traditional model “has poured concrete around [traditional FIs’] payments infrastructure.”

“It’s time for everyone to start to recognize that and think, ‘How are we going to be competitive?’”

The Inherent Risks of Legacy Systems

Traditional financial institutions derive 30% to 40% of their revenue from payments, Audenaert noted. Accordingly, the risks of maintaining legacy systems that he outlined all dovetail with banks’ need to continue generating those revenues.

The risks include:

* Costs, including the technical depth required to maintain legacy systems, the duplication of effort, and the software and hardware requirements compared with the cloud.* Resilience issues, including outages of the systems. Audenaert noted that 24-hour (or longer) outages have been “a huge issue.

Last January, Equifax announced a definitive agreement to acquire Kount, a digital identity trust and fraud prevention solution provider. On February 11, 2021, another Equifax announcement declared that the acquisition was complete.  

One year after the acquisition, Equifax has made noteworthy progress in combining the strengths of the two organizations to help businesses better engage with their customers online while combating fraud. With plans to move even deeper into the digital enablement space, Equifax is enabling businesses to thrive in a digital-first world with Kount, an Equifax company.  

To learn about what’s in store for the future of digital enablement, PaymentsJournal sat down with Brad Wiskirchen, SVP and GM of Kount, Mark Luber, Chief Product Officer at Equifax, and Tim Sloane, VP of Payments Innovation at Mercator Advisory Group. 

PaymentsJournalDigital Enablement Capabilities Enhance the Online Customer JourneyPaymentsJournal Digital Enablement Capabilities Enhance the Online Customer JourneyPaymentsJournaljQuery(document).ready(function ($){var settings_ap16837061 = { design_skin: "skin-wave" ,autoplay: "off",disable_volume:"default" ,loop:"off" ,cue: "on" ,embedded: "off" ,preload_method:"metadata" ,design_animateplaypause:"off" ,skinwave_dynamicwaves:"off" ,skinwave_enableSpectrum:"off" ,skinwave_enableReflect:"on",settings_backup_type:"full",playfrom:"default",soundcloud_apikey:"" ,skinwave_comments_enable:"off",settings_php_handler:window.ajaxurl,skinwave_wave_mode:"canvas",pcm_data_try_to_generate: "on","pcm_notice": "off","notice_no_media": "on",design_color_bg: "111111",design_color_highlight: "ef6b13",skinwave_wave_mode_canvas_waves_number: "3",skinwave_wave_mode_canvas_waves_padding: "1",skinwave_wave_mode_canvas_reflection_size: "0.25",skinwave_comments_playerid:"16837061",php_retriever:"https://www.paymentsjournal.com/wp-content/plugins/dzs-zoomsounds/soundcloudretriever.php" }; try{ dzsap_init(".ap_idx_379825_29",settings_ap16837061); }catch(err){ console.warn("cannot init player", err); } });

Bringing together physical and digital identity 

With access to a larger pool of data than either organization had alone, following the acquisition of Kount, Equifax has the combined digital identity and physical identity signals to create a safe and seamless online experience.  

Luber used the example of an auto loan to define physical identity signals. “When you get your auto loan, you are typically in-person for at least certain parts of the [process]. There are a lot of checks that go on throughout that,” he said. “For example, in-person buyers may provide a car dealership with paper proof of identification such as a payroll stub, utility bills, and a driver’s license.” 

On the other hand, digital identity relies on an ongoing stream of data from online interactions. “This is confirming the identity on an ongoing basis. It creates ongoing impressions of [a] consumer’s online behavior [and] creates ongoing confirmation of the identity associated with that person,” Luber added. 

When combined, digital and physical identity become even more powerful.

The fight for consumer mindshare is more competitive than ever. Customers are bombarded with messages in a number of different channels, and standing out among the noise can be difficult for merchants. 

The key to doing so is to deliver targeted, relevant promotions and offers in the mobile channel at the right time. To learn exactly how merchants can accomplish this, PaymentsJournal sat with Amit Chhabra, Head of the QSR/Restaurant Merchant Subsegment at ACI Worldwide, and Don Apgar, Director of Merchant Advisory Services Practice at Mercator Advisory Group. 

PaymentsJournalHow Merchants Can Use Mobile to Stay Vital to the Customer RelationshipPaymentsJournal How Merchants Can Use Mobile to Stay Vital to the Customer RelationshipPaymentsJournaljQuery(document).ready(function ($){var settings_ap42253122 = { design_skin: "skin-wave" ,autoplay: "off",disable_volume:"default" ,loop:"off" ,cue: "on" ,embedded: "off" ,preload_method:"metadata" ,design_animateplaypause:"off" ,skinwave_dynamicwaves:"off" ,skinwave_enableSpectrum:"off" ,skinwave_enableReflect:"on",settings_backup_type:"full",playfrom:"default",soundcloud_apikey:"" ,skinwave_comments_enable:"off",settings_php_handler:window.ajaxurl,skinwave_wave_mode:"canvas",pcm_data_try_to_generate: "on","pcm_notice": "off","notice_no_media": "on",design_color_bg: "111111",design_color_highlight: "ef6b13",skinwave_wave_mode_canvas_waves_number: "3",skinwave_wave_mode_canvas_waves_padding: "1",skinwave_wave_mode_canvas_reflection_size: "0.25",skinwave_comments_playerid:"42253122",php_retriever:"https://www.paymentsjournal.com/wp-content/plugins/dzs-zoomsounds/soundcloudretriever.php" }; try{ dzsap_init(".ap_idx_379740_28",settings_ap42253122); }catch(err){ console.warn("cannot init player", err); } });

Customers Want To Go Digital 

Apgar noted that according to Mercator research, consumers prefer interacting with businesses that they trust in a mobile environment. Digital adoption drastically increased during the COVID-19-related lockdowns of 2020, but that the level of mobile interaction has sustained since then, he added. This means mobile is a vital channel for merchants. 

“Being able to connect with a customer where they are at is of tremendous value,” Apgar stated. “Consumers have really become accustomed to interacting in a mobile environment.”  

For merchants, this means that using their own native apps in the most optimal way will help them to stand out on a consumer’s crowded smartphone; according to research from Simform, the average user has around 40 apps on their phone.  

“It’s important [for merchants] that consumers engage with [the merchants’] mobile app,” said Chhabra. “Many users will delete a mobile app they don’t find value in or don’t use often.” 

A New Tool For Mobile Engagement 

Chhabra said it was for this reason that ACI launched its Smart Engage mobile engagement platform for merchants in June. Merchants can integrate the platform through their existing mobile application via the Smart Engage software development kit (SDK). He added that the platform is designed to get consumers to interact with a merchant’s mobile app more frequently and create brand awareness. 

Merchants can use the platform to send consumers push notifications with specific offers or promo...

Consumer expectations are changing across the board. The world has become faster and more digitized. Payments in particular have been moving towards real-time operations for years, further expedited by the COVID-19 pandemic. Yet, physical credit and debit card issuance can still move at a snail’s pace. The solution? Digital issuance. 

To learn more about whether digital issuance of new or lost debit and credit cards is important and relevant to cardholders, PaymentsJournal sat down with Randy Piatt, Vice President of Product Solutions and Marketing at Fiserv and Sarah Grotta, Director of Debit and Alternative Products Advisory Service at Mercator Advisory Group. 

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The transformation of cardholder expectations 

Payments industry professionals have been prophesizing exponential growth towards digitization for years now, and only very recently have those theories been borne out. “We’ve had digital wallets since 2014 or so,” said Piatt. “We keep talking about the time that people are suddenly going to shift overwhelmingly to digital, and it was always, ‘It’s next year, it’s next year, it’s next year…’ What we found in the pandemic was an actual tipping point that forced people to be digital.” 

Financial institution customers by and large want to interact digitally with their bank, rather than needing to call or meet in person. This preference holds for all people irrespective of demographic, facilitated by the massive digital adoption resulting from the COVID-19 pandemic. “We used to talk about the digital divide,” noted Grotta. “That divide is really blurring now.” The definition of “digital native” is broadening to include older generations. 

Merchants are also pushing for digital purchase initiation, even for in-store purchases,

With the unprecedented rise in fraudulent activity financial institutions and their customers experience, the pressure for risk mitigation to reduce losses and protect FI brands is extreme across all payment channels. Fraudsters are more sophisticated and determined than ever, with new tools and technologies that challenge the banking system every day.  

One type of payments fraud, check fraud, has undergone steady transformation. As  check deposit behavior shifts from in-branch to remote channels, the need for financial institutions to protect themselves and their customers against fraudulent activity is key.  

To learn more about the challenges financial institutions face today as they continue to search for ways to mitigate risk, PaymentsJournal sat with Bev Nichols, Product Director of Deposit Solutions at Fiserv, and Sarah Grotta, Director of Debit and Alternative Products Advisory Service at Mercator Advisory Group. 

PaymentsJournalCheck Deposit Risk Mitigation for Financial Institutions PaymentsJournal Check Deposit Risk Mitigation for Financial Institutions PaymentsJournaljQuery(document).ready(function ($){var settings_ap39551311 = { design_skin: "skin-wave" ,autoplay: "off",disable_volume:"default" ,loop:"off" ,cue: "on" ,embedded: "off" ,preload_method:"metadata" ,design_animateplaypause:"off" ,skinwave_dynamicwaves:"off" ,skinwave_enableSpectrum:"off" ,skinwave_enableReflect:"on",settings_backup_type:"full",playfrom:"default",soundcloud_apikey:"" ,skinwave_comments_enable:"off",settings_php_handler:window.ajaxurl,skinwave_wave_mode:"canvas",pcm_data_try_to_generate: "on","pcm_notice": "off","notice_no_media": "on",design_color_bg: "111111",design_color_highlight: "ef6b13",skinwave_wave_mode_canvas_waves_number: "3",skinwave_wave_mode_canvas_waves_padding: "1",skinwave_wave_mode_canvas_reflection_size: "0.25",skinwave_comments_playerid:"39551311",php_retriever:"https://www.paymentsjournal.com/wp-content/plugins/dzs-zoomsounds/soundcloudretriever.php" }; try{ dzsap_init(".ap_idx_378852_28",settings_ap39551311); }catch(err){ console.warn("cannot init player", err); } });

Check Challenges 

Check fraud schemes have evolved and adapted to the greater adoption of digital deposit, which was often the only deposit method available during the pandemic. “[Mobile deposit] has now basically become a standard,” said Nichols, “but as we [made that transition], we came across risk challenges.” The AFP report showed that 66% of respondents believe checks to be one of the most susceptible methods of payments fraud. 

“We often forget just how often we do write checks,” added Grotta. “FIs are investing in their digital transformation, but there hasn’t necessarily been enough investment in activities to support checks.” Consumers and businesses are still writing billions of checks equaling trillions of dollars annually. Banks, credit unions, and their clients and members need fraud prevention that extends beyond manual efforts from overextended FI staff. 

How FIs Can Protect Accountholders (and Themselves) Against Fraudsters 

Marketplace solutions to fraud must align with the modern expectation for speed,

Bill collections still uses many manual, paper-based, and inefficient processes. However, that is beginning to change as fintech digital innovations are transforming the collections space and making it easier for consumers to pay off debt quickly and seamlessly.  

To find out how, PaymentsJournal sat with Don Apgar, Director of Merchant Services Advisory Practice at Mercator Advisory Group, and Lance Carlson, Co-founder of HealPay.  

PaymentsJournalHow Digital Innovation Makes Bill Collections Kinder (and More Effective) PaymentsJournal How Digital Innovation Makes Bill Collections Kinder (and More Effective) PaymentsJournaljQuery(document).ready(function ($){var settings_ap36218593 = { design_skin: "skin-wave" ,autoplay: "off",disable_volume:"default" ,loop:"off" ,cue: "on" ,embedded: "off" ,preload_method:"metadata" ,design_animateplaypause:"off" ,skinwave_dynamicwaves:"off" ,skinwave_enableSpectrum:"off" ,skinwave_enableReflect:"on",settings_backup_type:"full",playfrom:"default",soundcloud_apikey:"" ,skinwave_comments_enable:"off",settings_php_handler:window.ajaxurl,skinwave_wave_mode:"canvas",pcm_data_try_to_generate: "on","pcm_notice": "off","notice_no_media": "on",design_color_bg: "111111",design_color_highlight: "ef6b13",skinwave_wave_mode_canvas_waves_number: "3",skinwave_wave_mode_canvas_waves_padding: "1",skinwave_wave_mode_canvas_reflection_size: "0.25",skinwave_comments_playerid:"36218593",php_retriever:"https://www.paymentsjournal.com/wp-content/plugins/dzs-zoomsounds/soundcloudretriever.php" }; try{ dzsap_init(".ap_idx_379365_28",settings_ap36218593); }catch(err){ console.warn("cannot init player", err); } });

From Antiquity to Modernity 

There is still “a lot of antiquated technology” in the bill collections space, noted Carlson. He added that a common practice in the industry until recently involved storing a spreadsheet with names and overdue account balances on USB drives, and one party would sell the stored information to another that would then collect the debts. This, of course, is a laborious, manual process rife with human error, often leading to mistakes and confusion. Overall, the collections process is often a frustrating one for both consumers and businesses trying to get the debt paid. 

“However, you are starting to see things modernizing,” said Carlson. “We’re starting to automate many of these manual processes.” 

HealPay, for example, offers a consumer-facing digital portal that enables users to set up one-time or recurring payments with merchants or collection firms without having to log in.  

Businesses and collection firms have access to a portal that integrates with leading receivables and claims management software, automates formerly manual processes, and uses data analytics to offer intelligent payment options for partial, full and minimum payments. 

A Better Consumer Experience Leads to More Paid Bills 

While such tech innovation makes things easier for businesses and creates a much better experience for consumers, does it lead to more debt being repaid? That was a question Apgar posed: “How does a friendlier approach to the consumer result in more collections?” 

Carlson began by acknowledging that a segment of the populace simply will not pay past-due bills and “you can’t force them to pay bills if they don’t want to,

The market for financial services has never been more competitive. Digital banks, neobanks, challenger banks—even merchants like Walmart, groceries, and drugstores—and other fintechs are all offering financial services in a less regulated setting than that of financial institutions (FIs).  

Offering digital services is of paramount importance to financial institutions, but it can be very hard for FIs to acquire the technology and talent they need without having it funneled toward new regulatory and compliance needs. As a result, many FIs are partnering with fintechs to outsource the development of innovative payments technology.  

Earned wage access (EWA) is one of the hottest new features that fintech and FI partnerships are adopting. EWA is the ability for employees or contract workers to request immediate access to some of the pay they have already earned.  

To learn more about EWA and how financial services providers can participate in the on-demand pay movement, PaymentsJournal sat down with Rob Nardelli, Director and Business Development Lead for Strategic Partnerships at DailyPay, and Sarah Grotta, Director of Debit and Alternative Products Advisory Service at Mercator Advisory Group. 

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Fintech/FI Partnerships Are the Future 

After the 2008 Great Recession, the banking industry saw a massive regulatory overhaul. “Compliance became critical,” said Nardelli. Know Your Client (KYC), the Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC), and anti-money laundering (AML), according to Nardelli, “ruled the day, and in some instances, at the expense of the client/customer experience. Innovation became challenging, to say the least.”  

Meanwhile, fintechs with fewer regulatory hurdles were filling the gap in customer experience enhancement. Now, semi-post-pandemic,

Merchant services are riding a wave of innovation. For many years, the broadest distribution channel for merchant services was the independent sales agent. Merchants relied on their personal relationship with agents for competitive pricing and local customer service.  

Now there is a new trend where merchants are starting to value technology over the traditional merchant-vendor relationship. The sales agent relationship is still very important, but the COVID-19 pandemic has accelerated consumer demand for omni-channel payment facilitation. Access to technology is now a key piece of any payment solution sales agents might offer merchants. 

To learn more about changes in the payments industry and how the APEX technology suite from Agile Financial Services provides omni-channel merchant services, PaymentsJournal sat down with Dustin Siner, Chief Revenue Officer at Agile Financial Services (AFS), and Don Apgar, Director of Merchant Advisory Services Practice at Mercator Advisory Group. 

PaymentsJournalPivoting the Payments Industry with Disruptive Omni-Channel Solutions PaymentsJournal Pivoting the Payments Industry with Disruptive Omni-Channel Solutions PaymentsJournaljQuery(document).ready(function ($){var settings_ap35255417 = { design_skin: "skin-wave" ,autoplay: "off",disable_volume:"default" ,loop:"off" ,cue: "on" ,embedded: "off" ,preload_method:"metadata" ,design_animateplaypause:"off" ,skinwave_dynamicwaves:"off" ,skinwave_enableSpectrum:"off" ,skinwave_enableReflect:"on",settings_backup_type:"full",playfrom:"default",soundcloud_apikey:"" ,skinwave_comments_enable:"off",settings_php_handler:window.ajaxurl,skinwave_wave_mode:"canvas",pcm_data_try_to_generate: "on","pcm_notice": "off","notice_no_media": "on",design_color_bg: "111111",design_color_highlight: "ef6b13",skinwave_wave_mode_canvas_waves_number: "3",skinwave_wave_mode_canvas_waves_padding: "1",skinwave_wave_mode_canvas_reflection_size: "0.25",skinwave_comments_playerid:"35255417",php_retriever:"https://www.paymentsjournal.com/wp-content/plugins/dzs-zoomsounds/soundcloudretriever.php" }; try{ dzsap_init(".ap_idx_378647_28",settings_ap35255417); }catch(err){ console.warn("cannot init player", err); } });

Transforming the payments industry into a service-centric space 

Back in 2017 when it was first founded, AFS was called Rev19. “Rev19 was an independent sales organization whose mission was to transform the payments industry into a transparent service-centric space,” said Siner.  

At the time, the industry was fraught with sales organizations looking to reap rewards through unethical rate hikes and cost-cutting by offshoring service centers. Rev19 wanted to ensure it was aligned with best-of-breed legacy technologies and a sales model designed to deliver quality service at a fair price. 

After four years of 60-70% year-on-year growth and with an established network of several hundred independent agents, Rev19 rebranded as Agile Financial Systems in...

Payment processing is an essential part of any business. Forward-thinking merchants are pursuing omnichannel experiences that will yield the highest number of conversions in the most efficient way. However, many merchants still rely on legacy payment processors. Software developers need to create the next generation of modern and agile payments processing technology to help merchants achieve their goals. 

To learn more about why choosing an agile fintech payment processing partner is good for both merchants and software integrators, PaymentsJournal sat down with John Buchanan, Senior Vice President of Sales at AFS, and Don Apgar, Director of Merchant Services Advisory Practice at Mercator Advisory Group. 

PaymentsJournalWhy Partnering with an Agile Payment Processor Is the Smart Move PaymentsJournal Why Partnering with an Agile Payment Processor Is the Smart Move PaymentsJournaljQuery(document).ready(function ($){var settings_ap20374014 = { design_skin: "skin-wave" ,autoplay: "off",disable_volume:"default" ,loop:"off" ,cue: "on" ,embedded: "off" ,preload_method:"metadata" ,design_animateplaypause:"off" ,skinwave_dynamicwaves:"off" ,skinwave_enableSpectrum:"off" ,skinwave_enableReflect:"on",settings_backup_type:"full",playfrom:"default",soundcloud_apikey:"" ,skinwave_comments_enable:"off",settings_php_handler:window.ajaxurl,skinwave_wave_mode:"canvas",pcm_data_try_to_generate: "on","pcm_notice": "off","notice_no_media": "on",design_color_bg: "111111",design_color_highlight: "ef6b13",skinwave_wave_mode_canvas_waves_number: "3",skinwave_wave_mode_canvas_waves_padding: "1",skinwave_wave_mode_canvas_reflection_size: "0.25",skinwave_comments_playerid:"20374014",php_retriever:"https://www.paymentsjournal.com/wp-content/plugins/dzs-zoomsounds/soundcloudretriever.php" }; try{ dzsap_init(".ap_idx_377633_28",settings_ap20374014); }catch(err){ console.warn("cannot init player", err); } });

Modern software is difficult to integrate with legacy processing 

One problem with legacy payment processors is their incompatibility with modern technology. “Legacy systems are often built with the original concept of payment processing in mind,” explained Buchanan. “We’re talking about any industry that has been around since the ‘60s and ‘70s.” Legacy platforms are often disjointed and extremely limited. Even with the onset of EMV chips, legacy platforms still relied on “dumb” terminals – plastic machines with rubber keys. 

These days, customers have variable preferences for how and where they want to pay: curbside, in-line, at the table, etc. “Today’s solution must be omnichannel,” Buchanan continued. “Software developers need to build technology that enables merchants to meet their consumers where they are ready to transact.”  

Unfortunately, the term “omnichannel” is sometimes misrepresented as simply having multiple payment processors. But if the various channels do not communicate with one another and consolidate payment data, those extra features will not add enough benefit to justify their inclusion. “You’ve got to make sure that it’s not just a legacy platform with a bunch of flashy collateral,” said Apgar. “It’s got to be built for a purpose.”