The Pupillage Podcast

For the final episode of the Pupillage Podcast, we look into the future: what lies ahead for the Bar? Are the robots coming for our wigs and gowns? We heard from three guests who have given this a lot of thought and found that the changes ahead are bigger than we could ever have imagined…

Guests

Jamie Susskind: author, speaker and barrister at Littleton Chambers http://www.littletonchambers.com/barrister/jamie-susskind/ and https://www.jamiesusskind.com/. To follow Jamie on Twitter @jamiesusskind and you can buy Future Politics here https://www.amazon.co.uk/Future-Politics-Living-Together-Transformed/dp/0198825617/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1537175876&sr=1-1&keywords=jamie+susskind+future+politics

Alex Glassbrook: barrister at Temple Garden Chambers https://tgchambers.com/member-profile/alex-glassbrook/ and author of the Law of Driverless Cars: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Law-Driverless-Cars-Introduction/dp/1911035282

Dr Christopher Markou: Fellow of Jesus College Cambridge https://www.law.cam.ac.uk/people/cp-markou/6574

Useful Links

A futurist’s reading list:

Future Politics by Jamie Susskind: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Future-Politics-Living-Together-Transformed/dp/0198825617/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1537175876&sr=1-1&keywords=jamie+susskind+future+politics

‘Tomorrow’s Lawyers’ by Richard Susskind

Forthcoming book by Richard Susskind ‘Online Courts and the Future of Justice’: https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Online-Courts-Justice-Richard-Susskind/dp/0198838360/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=online+courts+and+the+future+of+justice+susskind&qid=1565944646&s=gateway&sr=8-1

‘Hello World’ by Hannah Fry https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hello-World-How-Human-Machine/dp/1784163066/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1565946419&sr=1-1

For the decision of Leggatt J (as he then was) referred to by Alex Glassbrook: Gestmin SGPS S.A. v Credit Suisse [2013] EWHC 3560 (Comm) https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Comm/2013/3560.html

‘Weapons of Math Destruction by Cathy O’Neill by https://smile.amazon.com/Weapons-Math-Destruction-Increases-Inequality/dp/0553418815/ref=smi_www_rco2_go_smi_g3905707922?_encoding=UTF8&%2AVersion%2A=1&%2Aentries%2A=0&ie=UTF8

‘The Black Box Society’ by Frank Pasquale https://smile.amazon.com/Black-Box-Society-Algorithms-Information/dp/0674970845/ref=sr_1_1?crid=21KT2GUNTQ3VD&keywords=black+box+society&qid=1565968786&s=gateway&sprefix=black+box+so%2Cstripbooks-intl-ship%2C276&sr=8-1

‘Novacene’ by James Lovelock https://smile.amazon.com/Novacene-Coming-Age-Hyperintelligence-Press/dp/0262043645/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=novacene&qid=1565968810&s=gateway&sr=8-1

Glossary

ADM: Automated Decision Making, the process of making a decision by automated means without any human involvement e.g. a refund for an Amazon purchase to be returned; an online decision to award a loan.

Blockchain: a secure, encrypted, peer-to-peer transaction ledger used to record transactions

AI: Artificial Intelligence, an area of computer science which aims to create ‘intelligent’ machines (computers).

What if you are doing the GDL or the BPTC, or you’re searching for pupillage or busy

doing pupillage or you’re finally practising as a barrister… but you have a nagging

feeling that you’re the wrong person in the wrong place? And it’s not just that you

don’t want to be a barrister, but – horror of horrors – you don’t want to be a lawyer.

This episode is a little different from the others: in it we hear from people who have

decided to move away from the law. Our guests tell us how it felt to come to the

realisation that they wanted to get off the road marked ‘lawyer’ and travel somewhere

else; what practical steps they took to create their new careers and why it is that a

training in law stands you in good stead no matter where you end up. We loved hearing

about their experiences – we hope you do too!

Guests

Katrina Kutchinsky: for more information about Katrina, see

http://leagueofher.com/katrina-kutchinsky-founder-story/

Katrina’s PR company: https://www.akacomms.com/ and follow her on Twitter

@katrina_KK

Kathryn Perera: Director of NHS Horizons, @kathrynperera

Alex Aldridge: founder and publisher of Legal Cheek www.legalcheek.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/alex-aldridge-99728913/?originalSubdomain=uk

and follow Alex on twitter @AlexAldridgeUK

Olivia Potts: cordon bleu patissiere https://ahalfbakedidea.co.uk/, writer, author of A Half

Baked Idea available here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Half-Baked-Idea-courtroom-

Cordon/dp/0241380456/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=half+baked+idea&qid=1565876083&s=book

s&sr=1-1 and follow Olivia on twitter: @_Poots_ and Instagram @ahalfbakedidea

Alex Macqueen: actor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Macqueen and follow him twitter:

@Alex_Macqueen

What if you love the idea of being a lawyer but, in the end, don’t really fancy being a barrister? There are so many varied and exciting careers to be had under the rubric ‘lawyer’. In this episode we explore a few of the alternatives, and hear from our guests what the world is like beyond the Bar.

Guests

Christina Blacklaws: President of the Law Society until 2019:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/christinablacklaws/?originalSubdomain=uk

EJ Johnston Hawke: trainee solicitor at Edwards Duthie Shamash,

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/ej-johnston-hawke-42132343

Millicent Grant: President of the Chartered Institute of Legal Executives July 2018-July

2019

https://www.cilex.org.uk/about_cilex/the_cilex_council_archive/the_cilex_president

Master Lisa Osofsky: Director of the Serious Fraud Office

https://www.sfo.gov.uk/about-us/biographies/

Useful Links

Young Legal Aid Lawyers: http://www.younglegalaidlawyers.org

Becoming a legal aid lawyer: https://www.chambersstudent.co.uk/where-to-

start/newsletter/becoming-a-legal-aid-lawyer

Chartered Institute of Legal Executives: www.cilex.org.uk

Serious Fraud Office careers: https://www.sfo.gov.uk/about-us/careers/

Law society of England and Wales: https://www.lawsociety.org.uk

Glossary

Magic Circle firm: name given to the group of five city law firms in London considered to be ‘the best’ (Allen & Overy, Clifford Chance, Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer, Linklaters,

Slaughter and May).

Legal Aid work: legal aid is state funding for individuals unable to pay for legal representation in criminal, and some housing, family and immigration cases. Legal aid work is work in these areas. The fees are paid by the state, and administered by the Legal Aid Agency.

SFO: Serious Fraud Office a specialist prosecuting authority tackling the top level of serious or complex fraud, bribery and corruption. The SFO takes on a small number of large economic crime cases involving serious or complex fraud.

After 12 months of pupillage you’re told you’re not going to be offered tenancy. It’s really tough, there’s no doubt about it. But it’s most definitely not the end of the world lots of highly successful barristers (and some judges!) have done third sixes. In this episode our guests remind you to keep in mind how far you’ve come, encourage you to

be proactive and tell you how to pivot quickly, figure out your place in the market and bag a third six. They also give you some top tips for how to handle that third six, impress chambers and and convert pupillage into tenancy.

Guests

Ryan Turner, barrister at Lamb Chambers: https://www.lambchambers.co.uk/who-can-

help-you/barristers/ryan-turner

Olivia Potts, former barrister and now cordon bleu baker: https://ahalfbakedidea.co.uk

on twitter @_poots_ and Instagram @ahalfbakedidea

Alistair Richardson, barrister at 6 KBW College Hill

https://www.6kbw.com/people/barristers/alistair-richardson

Useful Links

The list of chambers recruiting for third sixes: https://www.barcouncil.org.uk/careers/third-

six-vacancies-and-best-practice/

Some more information on the STAR interview technique:

https://www.thebalancecareers.com/what-is-the-star-interview-response-technique-2061629

Last year data protection law firmly made its presence felt in all of our lives when we got dozens of emails about privacy notices and the GDPR: as Christopher Knight, one of our guests on today’s episode points out, data protection applies to everyone everywhere. So what does that mean for a data protection law practice? And what is the difference anyway between data protection law and information law?

Meanwhile, the news is full of issues which potentially concern planning and environmental lawyers, from HS2’s troubles to the housing crisis, to Extinction Rebellion’s demands for a reduction in carbon emissions, and the Mayor of London’s commitment to a reduction in air pollution.

We wanted to investigate what it’s like to have a practice in these areas of law, so in this episode we talk to barristers Christopher Knight and James Pereira QC about their respective practices in Data and Information Law and Planning and Environmental law. We learn how to keep calm amongst the Data Protection Act’s subclauses, and why a planning practice is partly about listening to people’s stories and selling a vision of the future.

Guests

Christopher Knight: barrister at 11KBW https://www.11kbw.com/barristers/christopher-

knight/

James Pereira QC: barrister at Francis Taylor Building

https://www.ftbchambers.co.uk/barristers/james-pereira-qc

Useful Links

11KBW’s Panopticon: https://panopticonblog.com/

Privacy International: https://privacyinternational.org/

Open Rights Group: https://www.openrightsgroup.org/

Media Law Defence Initiative: https://www.mediadefence.org/

Article 19: https://www.article19.org/

Big Brother Watch: https://bigbrotherwatch.org.uk

The Information Commissioner’s website: https://ico.org.uk

Peter Carey’s Freedom of Information Handbook: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Freedom-

Information-Handbook-Peter-Carey/dp/1907698183 and his book on Data Protection

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Data-Protection-Practical-Guide-law/dp/0198815417/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1567084243&refinements=p_27%3APeter+Carey&s=b

ooks&sr=1-1&text=Peter+Carey

Glossary

FOIA: Freedom of Information Act

GDPR: General Data Protection Regulation

DPA: Data Protection Act

ICCPR: International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights

These practice areas are, in the words of one of our guests, not for the weak-hearted. But if you are up for the varied and exacting challenges that a personal injury or clinical negligence presents, you will find yourself richly rewarded. We hear from Farah Mauladad who explains to us what it takes to cross-examine someone who went into hospital perfectly fit and came out tetraplegic, and from Gerard McDermott QC whose clients have often suffered catastrophic and life-changing injuries: he leaves us in no doubt that health and safety really

matters.

Guests

Farrah Mauladad: barrister at Crown Office Chambers

https://www.crownofficechambers.com/barristers/farrah-mauladad/

Master Gerard McDermott QC: barrister at Outer Temple Chambers

https://www.outertemple.com/barristers/gerard-mcdermott-qc/ and to follow Gerard on

twitter https://twitter.com/mcdermottqc?lang=en

Useful Links

Association of Personal Injury Lawyers: https://www.apil.org.uk

Action against Medical Accidents: https://www.avma.org.uk

Glossary

CFA: Conditional Fee Agreement – sometimes known as ‘no win no fee’

Did you love studying the weird and wonderful world of Equity and Trusts? Then today’s episode is for you. We hear from Constance McDonnell QC, a traditional chancery barrister, who tells us how a chancery practice can lead to that elusive work-life balance and why people skills - and not just intellect - are essential. And then we look into one of the most mysterious and little-known courts with Claire van Overdijk: the Court of Protection.

Guests

Constance McDonnell QC barrister at Serle Court

http://www.serlecourt.co.uk/news/article/constance-mcdonnell-qc

Claire van Overdijk barrister at Outer Temple

https://www.outertemple.com/barristers/claire-van-overdijk/

Useful Links

Glossary

CCG: Clinical commissioning groups

Probate: the law concerning the administration of a person’s property, money and

possessions (their ‘estate’) once they are dead.

Mediation: a meeting between parties to litigation or proposed litigation which aims to

resolve the dispute by arriving at a settlement. The parties are helped by a mediator who

facilitates discussion. Anything discussed at a mediation is ‘without prejudice’.

FDR: Financial Dispute Resolution Hearing, a judge-directed mediation where a judge will

assist the parties by expressing a view on a point of law.

Without prejudice: a party who makes a statement (either orally or in writing) and indicates

that it is ‘without prejudice’ cannot be held to that statement, i.e. that statement cannot be

relied upon by the other party in the course of the litigation.

P: the person without capacity whose best interests are under discussion in the context of

Court of Protection work.

Human Rights and Public International Law are two of the most appealing and popular areas

of the law, but what do they really entail and how easy are they to get into? We hear from

two junior practitioners who tell us about their own motivations and the challenges they have

encountered in their practices. Learn why it might not always pay to be an activist if you

want to go into HR and take note of a health warning about how to start a PIL practice…

Guests

Jude Bunting: barrister at Doughty Street https://www.doughtystreet.co.uk/barristers/jude-

bunting

Remi Reichhold: barrister at 5 Essex Court https://5essexcourt.co.uk/our-

people/profile/remi-reichhold

Glossary

CFA: Conditional Fee Agreement – sometimes known as ‘no win no fee’

NGO: Non-Governmental Organisation

PIL: Public International Law

Guests

Ruth Kennedy barrister at 2TG https://www.2tg.co.uk/people/ruth-kennedy/

Michael Bowsher QC barrister at Monckton Chambers

https://www.monckton.com/barrister/michael-bowsher-qc/

Useful Links

KCL procurement distance learning module: https://www.kcl.ac.uk/law/research/centres/european/programmes/procurementsyllabus​

The recent announcement by the Duke and Duchess of Sussex --- aka Harry and

Meghan --- that they are planning to sue Associated Newspapers after the Mail on

Sunday published a private letter from Meghan to her father, has put the spotlight on

media and defamation law – the topic of this episode of the pupillage podcast. We hear

about celebrities and super injunctions, but also learn that nothing is beyond the reach

of this fascinating area of law, from anti-semitism, to medical research, to the parish

newsletter. If you’re interested in the conflict between free speech and privacy, and in

truth and opinion then this episode is for you.

Guests

Felicity McMahon: barrister at 5RB

https://www.5rb.com/member/felicity-mcmahon/ and on Twitter @bitofalegalgeek

Master Adrienne Page QC: barrister at 5RB

https://www.5rb.com/member/adrienne-page-qc/

Useful Links

McNae’s Essential Law for Journalists, Mark Hanna & Mark Dodd

https://www.amazon.co.uk/McNaes-Essential-Journalists-Mike-

Dodd/dp/0198809573/ref=dp_ob_title_bk

Glossary

CFA: Conditional Fee Agreements – a no win, no fee agreement whereby a party only has to

pay legal costs if they win their case; if they do not, there are no costs to pay.

Recoverable Success Fees: an additional amount of the winning party’s legal fees which have

to be paid by the losing party, which since 6 April 2019 are no longer permitted in

defamation and privacy cases.

IPSO – Independent Press Standards Organisation

Master of the Bench – senior members of the Inns of Court

Costs Masters – costs judge – judges sitting in the Senior Courts Costs Office

QB Masters – Queen’s Bench Master, a judge who handles case management of cases in the

Queens’ Bench Division