The Quiet Light Podcast

Today we welcome Chuck (iii) Mullins, we are talking with him about his background, experience, his algorithm knowledge, ask him our rapid-fire questions, and pick his brain about the business.

Chuck built his first profitable website back in 1996 when he was an impressionable 18 years old. He studied computer software engineering in college, which taught him the skills to analyze search results and implement strategies. Throughout his career of developing, managing, consulting, and investing in internet-based companies, Chuck has developed a keen ability to spot opportunities and develop strategies that lead to growth and profitability.

Episode Highlights:

• Chuck's background, entrepreneurial experience, and success stories
• Web-based business ups-and-downs
• The difference in long-term cash flow from web-based businesses and get-rich-quick cash businesses
• Chuck's favorite web niches
• Chuck's favorite audience member (who is also a buyer)
• Websites that are more/less desirable
• The importance of knowing your Profit and Loss
• Biggest mistake buyers can make
• Best practices for buyers and sellers
• The importance of understanding the business and doing your research
• Quiet Light's vision and how we can help you

Transcription:

Mark: Joe, one of my favorite things about working with team Quiet Light is some of the camaraderie that we have with each other. The fact that we get to tease each other a little bit, egg each other on, but also help each other out; talk about deals, collaborate on our transactions because everybody at Quiet Light has so much entrepreneurial experience that it's like having this built in board of advisors for every single thing that we do. And one thing I think you and I need to do a better job of; I know we've had each of the advisors on Quiet Light at the Quiet Light Podcast. I think we need to bring them on a bit more so that others can enjoy some of the experience that they have. You had Chuck on recently and grilled him a little bit in this episode.

Joe: I did. I want people to get to know Chuck for the fun experienced entrepreneur that he is. And so I mixed it up a little bit. I had some fun with him we did some rapid-fire questions. I intentionally; just let me get this upfront and out there for the audience. I intentionally mispronounced somebody's name. I butchered it intentionally. Again I did it seven or eight episodes ago and I got some email saying I think the person you're trying to find is so and so. I did it again.

Mark: Same person?

Joe: Same person; yeah, if he's listening.

Mark: He needs to start listening to the podcast especially my episodes because frankly, I've got a leg up on you.

Joe: You have overtaken me for the most popular episode on the Quiet Light Podcast. I will overcome that because I've got some great ones planned coming in here soon. Chuck is a fascinating individual. I've known Chuck for a long time and he's really, really smart when it comes to his entrepreneurial acumen. It's almost annoying to be honest because with a model that we have at Quiet Light Brokerage; we don't have employees, right? No one's an employee of Quiet Light Brokerage. We have a lot of entrepreneurs who work together in sort of a collective group. Well, one of the benefits to that is all the advice and feedback I'm able to get from people. And one of the most annoying things is all the feedback and advice I get from everyone. And sometimes; Chuck especially, Chuck is so thorough. What's the term he gives to himself? Whatever it is he just hyper focuses on the most minute little detail and I fear asking questions sometimes because of the level of detail that he's going to give to me in terms of what I have to fix and correct in a document that I'm creating.

Mark: But at the end of the day even though sometimes it can be overwhelming like come on you think I'm doing everything wrong evidently because I keep getting his feedback, it's always on point. And I don't think I've ever received feedback from them where I look at it and say this is not worth considering or looking at; so a smart, smart guy. I'm looking forward to it. What are some of the things that you discussed in this episode?

Joe: Well we talked about some of; he's got almost three years brokering now and over 20 years as an entrepreneur now. And he talked about some of his experiences; the pros and cons of A. being an entrepreneur, some of the things that he's found that certain buyers do better than anyone else, and how he wants new buyers to adopt that style, and then the biggest mistakes that someone's selling their business can make as well. And it's fascinating as I just said he's got 20 plus years as an entrepreneur. I'm in the same boat. You're in the same boat. So collectively the team at Quiet Light I'd say what 250 years of entrepreneurial experience that we share with our team with our clients and I think it's fascinating. Chuck is just the tip of the iceberg here in terms of the experience. So it's exciting to share this with him and we had a lot of fun. So that's the key to this one.

Mark: Fantastic, well let's get to it.

Joe: Hey folks it's Joe Valley from Quiet Light Brokerage on the Quiet Light Podcast. And today we have the most special guest. His name is Chucky. Now that's not what we call him. It's Chuck. I use his personal email address. I'm not going to tell you at what you can all haul in the mail anyway. You know his e-mail address its Chuck@QuietLightBrokerage. Chuck Mullins, welcome back to the Quiet Light Podcast.

Chuck: Thank you, sir. Thank you. For any that's specific it's actually Charles Clifford Mullins III. That's my D-I-I-I.

Joe: You know I am from New England I can't talk with a British accent; it's something about us.

Chuck: Well I can't either.

Joe: Alright. Well listen you know the routine. Normally on the podcast we ask people to give their own background; who they are, what they're all about so that we're not sounding like we're reading from a script which we don't. We wing these things. You know that. Our audience knows that. But before we get into that I want to ask you a series of rapid-fire questions; the first one so that people understand and establish your experience here at Quiet Light Brokerage, how long have you been brokering at Quiet Light Brokerage?

Chuck: About two and a half; almost three years.

Joe: Almost three years. Okay. So let's start with…I've got a total of six questions. Number one; and you've got to give me a quick answer. Number one, who's your favorite broker?

Chuck: Joe Valley.

Joe: Good, good, good. Alright, if you were stranded on an island with me, Brad Wayland, and Jason Yellowitz and a rash floated by and they would only carry three of us; there's four altogether, who would you leave behind and why?

Chuck: Jason Yellowitz, because he would be able to burn his stacks of cash to stay warm.

Joe: And he carries it with him, is that what you're saying?

Chuck: Inaudible[00:06:25.8]

Joe: Jason I know you all listen to the podcast so everybody make fun of Jason. That's your job here. Alright, this is a really important question. Who is the better podcast me or Andy Youderainan; I mean in Andrew Youderian?

Chuck: I would have to go with Mark.

Joe: You are…

Chuck: Hello? Isn't it you that people come up to the Booze and ask for or is it Mark that they come up and ask for?

Joe: That's me. It's me. Mark doesn't go to Booze. Alright, sid you know Walker Diabel wrote a book; and a best seller book?

Chuck: Have you heard about the second book that he wrote?

Joe: No. He wrote a second book?

Chuck: Yes. If you go to WalkerDiebel.guru you can check out the second one that hasn't been released yet.

Joe: Okay, Alright. So this is a tough question. This is not a trick question. I want to know if you can answer this one. What's the name of Walker's book?

Chuck: Buy Then Build.

Joe: You got it. Okay. Alright.

Chuck: How can you not get it? I've heard it at every conversation. Every conference I go to there's these three books that are just floating around that conference and I'm like wait a second how did that get there?

Joe: And it's the bottom of every one of his e-mail signatures. One of these days you're going to dig way back into the archives when he was actually an actor and find a clip and we're going to change his email signature line somehow some way. Alright, so as you know historically Quiet Light Brokerage does not recruit brokers. I have conversations three or four times a week these days with people who want to join the team. But we, for the most part, don't recruit. We have as you know or Mark has as you know recruited a few starting with Amanda back in the day. She was the first. And I think Brad was also recruited. And yourself was also recruited. Of all of the brokers that Mark recruited; last question by the way, what was his best decision?

Chuck: Probably Brad. He's been killing it man.

Joe: Man and give yourself some credit Chuck. Come on. Anybody but you would probably be the politically correct answer but essentially you just threw Amanda under the bus. But fortunately Amanda doesn't really listen to our own podcast either. Alright, enough of this nonsense; let's talk about you and your experience. I know all about you but for the audience members, Chuck has been on the podcast before Mark had him on when he first joined the team two and a half years ago, three years ago. And the focus of that podcast was a tiny little bit about Chuck but mostly about Chuck's due diligence experience. And I think you had a list of was it 25 due diligence tools?

Chuck: Who can remember?

Joe: Yeah, a lot. And it's all; if you Google Quiet Light Podcast, Chuck Mullins, due diligence you'll find it. It'd be at the top of the Google search engine and it's great stuff. And I learned a lot when I did it. But I would say I refer most people out for due diligence; buyers that is to our friend Chris Yates at Centurica. They do a great job. Well, let's talk a little bit about who you are and your life experience and a little bit of your brokering experience now that you're three years into Quiet Light. So who the heck are you? Tell us about your entrepreneurial experience. I know that you started way back when you were in college, right?

Chuck: Yeah. I graduated high school in '96 and I always wanted a computer but we couldn't afford one. So finally for college I needed a computer so I got a computer and started a free website on it's like Angel Fire or Tripod or one of these things way back in '96. And I remember just putting up some content and that is an online library for college students. And I remember somebody offered me like 10 bucks at some point to put a link on my website. I'm like $10 awesome, I'm making money and then somebody offers me like a hundred bucks and I'm like what $100? So then I was; this is before I even had a domain so it was like AngelFire/blahblahblah. I started thinking about okay we'll buy a domain and back then they were like thirty-five bucks. I was talking to my mom and I'm like mom I'd buy a domain and she's like you're crazy you shouldn't buy you know like you're just wasting your money and why are you spending all this time in front of the computer and then it just started growing and then somebody offered me a thousand bucks. And before you know it I was making about sixteen grand a month off of advertising back in the '90s.

Joe: In college, right?

Chuck: In college; yeah, and so I was just…

Joe: That's a lot of Jägermeister.

Chuck: And the Internet bubble ended up bursting in like the 2000, 2001 and all that money like dried up overnight. So I was like okay now what? So I had to figure out how to pivot and myself and two other guys; we had different businesses. We all pooled together and started a membership site. The first month with our membership site we made like 60 grand. It was just like mind-blowing like oh my God we're in college. I didn't have keggers I had like full bottle; like full bar parties.

Joe: Everybody wanted to be your friend, right?

Chuck: It was fun and we'd stay at like the Ritz Carlton for Mardi Gras and like just do crazy things. We rented like a ski chalet; it was like a 15 bedroom house on the slopes and I forget where it was bit we then brought all of like; we had affiliates at the time, all our affiliates to come and ski with us and so we had a great time. And at some point, I was making a lot of money and I didn't really know what to do with it all. I was definitely wasting my fair share of it. Actually kind of going back, my mom, the whole thing with her telling me I shouldn't start the business and this and that in 2003 I think it was about my mom and sister cars for Christmas.

Joe: I wrote that down when you said it because I knew that. You told me the story about Christmas and your mom went outside and there was a big ribbon on a brand new car. I guess she's happy you bought that domain name, after all, isn't she?

Chuck: Yeah. Yeah for sure and I do not usually tell that story so maybe we'll have to edit that out.

Joe: No. No editing. Tell the story.

Chuck: I made two giant boxes and I had my mom like a box of some keys and she sees them and it had Lincoln in it which I had a navigator at the time and she's like oh it's a scavenger hunt he put his keys in here and she walks outside and sees this giant box and just like; my mom doesn't curse and she goes oh shit and she runs outside gets ready to tear into the box. And I said wait, mom, hold on hold on there's a card on there you've taught me better; open the card. And so she opens it and it says to my sister and my mom is like inaudible[00:12:57.1] my mom's like…well my sister is like to me? And again I wiggle the keys in front of my sister's face and she's like what?! So she runs and dives in and my mom looks at me like what this like WTF and I'm like you're over there. Then she starts walking and then sees it like buried on the other side of the house in a big box and like runs over and dives in. We're in Georgia at that time at a family house and it was cold and she didn't have shoes on. It was a great time. I've got the video. One day I'll have to share with somebody but I don't know that I want to share it.

Joe: What a great experience and a great thing to do for your mother and your sister did. Did your mother get the nicer car or was it equal to both?

Chuck: I was actually going to buy them the exact same car and then I was talking to my sister trying to like make sure that it was the kind of she would want and I said well what do you think Mom would like? And she said well my favorite car is a Sequoia and I ended up; my mom a Lincoln Aviator and my mom's Sequoia. They're about the same price. I think my sister was a little more but I did get some grief about that. Also the night before or a couple of nights before we went to Walmart and I bought every single piece of cheesy add on part you could get and added it to the car. So I got like a fuzzy steering wheel cover, dice, a little light-up things that go on the rims, and just totally like made the car look as ridiculous as possible and told them in order to get it they'd have to drive it with that stuff on it.

Joe: That's hilarious. So for anybody that's listening instead of watching if you look at my chin and Chuck's chin you'll see some gray; there're probably a little more on mine than his of course. His is more his cheek mine's dead on center of my chin that's because of age and life experience. So you had some amazing times Chuck out of college making more money in a month than most people in this country do in a year; all web-based business experience. It's not always wonderful though.

Chuck: No, absolutely not. Yeah, entrepreneurship is ups and downs. We've gotten hit by Google so many times I couldn't even tell you. And most of them were just algorithmic. But I have on one of my big businesses, we had about 12 that were all doing the same thing and one of my partners had used the same email address in our Webmaster Tools account and somebody from the spam team I guess noticed and went in and just manually penalized all of our businesses. I think except for two because those were the only two that didn't have those email addresses. And just overnight it's like poof gone and it's just like oh it's heartbreaking. At least when it's the algorithmic type of penalties it's easy to kind of; well maybe not easy but you're going to recover from that. The manual penalties, we hired somebody who used to work in the spam team. They told us what to do. We did it. We just haven't been able to recover from that on those other sites.

Joe: Yeah I know it's always hard. Google algorithm updates I think are getting a little better, a little easier to handle and manage I think ultimately. I always used to say this actually if you do the right thing the way Google tells you to do it, ultimately it's not going to hurt you; the algorithm updates. And I guarantee there are people out there shaking their head no right now because a good friend of mine, he built a great business, a great, great content site, and sold it and there was a an update recently. And the buyer, another great entrepreneur bought it and did have some negative impact. What they both know is that sometimes when Google casts a wide net some of the wrong sites get caught up in it and over time that does get corrected but it does sting initially, doesn't it?

Chuck: Yeah. And I will say like the reason we got caught up in a lot of the updates wasn't because we were doing the things that Google tells you to do. We were gaining the system and we deservedly got caught for doing those things and we would adjust our technique and then regain. So like one of our sites had like 100,000 pieces of unique content that we were in Google index for like 30 million pages.

Joe: Wow.

Chuck: So like how does one do that?

Joe: How does one do that? Good Lord.

Chuck: Trickery.

Joe: Well the grey in your chin has matured you to the point that I think you're beyond the trickery because you look at the long term cash flow and benefits of owning an online business now it's not just a quick cash anymore. At least that's the way I look at it; you too?

Chuck: Yeah, absolutely. And you're talking about like the algorithm updates and I feel like there's been so many and that most of the really garbage sites have probably gotten taken out by now. I feel like, and maybe I'm wrong but now it's more of like just tweaking the knobs a little bit. So unless you're in one of these like fringe business models I tend to believe and I could be 100% wrong but I tend to believe that most of the major algorithm updates have been already done and then now they're going after I guess like medical websites and things like that.

Joe: Yeah. The updates are far further I'm sure in between and in many cases not as severe. Alright so I'm going to throw a question at you. I don't know if I told you this story or not or if you've heard it. Some of the audience members might have heard it so I'm going to just test your algorithm update knowledge. And if you answer within two seconds then I know you heard the story. So I bought a business, I sold my business in November 2010; yada, yada, yada. People have heard this a million times, or at least tens of hundreds of thousands of times if they've listened to every episode and keep downloading everything. No we haven't done 100,000 episodes that's totally inaccurate. I can't do math by the way apparently. Alright so I bought a content site. I sold a great site. The content was amazing. And then I bought a piece of junk. I had 42 amazing days. I bought it March 1st, 2012. I had maybe 3 or 4 keywords on the first page of Google and then boom they fell to the bottom of page 1 and then page 2 and they were gone and I lost over a quarter-million dollars in the course of twelve months. What happened? What algorithm update was that? It was; again I bought it March 1st, 2012; I had forty-two amazing days.

Chuck: Panda. Penguin.

Joe: Penguin. Alright, you're close. We're going to have to throw that quiz out there. Everybody in the audience wouldn't throw that quiz out there for a price. Chuck's wearing a beautiful Quiet Like Brokerage…is that a polo shirt?

Chuck: Yeah.

Joe: We need to get some of those packaged up and give away prizes for that kind of stuff. Alright let's jump on to your Quiet Light Brokerage life; your entrepreneurial life, amazing ups and downs, a lot of great ups and you did some good things for family and friends. The downs, we learn from them and we try to take those lessons and make sure that we are really bringing great listings to market so the buyers are making good safe investments and the sellers of those investments can move on with peace of mind to their next adventures whether that's another business or retirement. In your history of transactions here at Quiet Light, is there any particular niche that you gravitate towards and enjoy more than another because as you said a ton of content and affiliate experience, but I think some of your larger deals have been physical product e-commerce sites. But is there anything that stands out for you?

Chuck: Yeah I mean so my heart is in like membership sites. I love recurring revenue. I think everybody does and that's why the multiples are higher because of that recurring revenue and the predictability. So I would say that that's kind of where I'd like to be but my biggest sales have been around physical products inaudible[00:20:53.3] an outdoor sporting equipment one that was great. One that I really love that I sold like six months ago was a company that did custom-tailored suits. That thing it's like awesome. Who doesn't want to say they have a business that sells custom-tailored suits? Like it's just; I think it's got the cool factor.

Joe: That's the amazing thing about what you do and what we do at Quiet Light is that we come to this role with a lifetime of experience that; I was talking with Walker and Brad about this recently that we didn't know it but all of our entrepreneurial life was preparing us for this role. And now we get to experience so many cool different business models. You come to this role with a ton of membership experience but custom-tailored suits and you're like that's the coolest thing. Who doesn't want to say they own a custom-tailored suit business? I need to buy a custom-tailored suit. I know who bought it and I can reach out to him. I know who he is too. Speaking of that I do want to ask a random question although its timing is not very random and you have to answer this. There's only one answer to this. This buyer listens to the podcast and he comments and he tells us about us sometimes when he's riding his bike. So do you have a favorite audience member that also happens to be a buyer? Yes or no? You have to say yes and you have to say his name now because he's a…

Chuck: Sure. Mike Nuñez.

Joe: There you go; Mike Nuñez, this is just a shout out to you. Thanks for listening Mike.

Chuck: Well I'll tell you it shouldn't just be a shout out to him. If anybody wants to know how to be a good buyer and how to buy businesses they should talk to Mike Nuñez because he is 100% the absolute best buyer I have. And not like just in a sense of like the actual acquisition of the company. When he gets on a phone call and talks to the sellers he makes them feel like they are the only person in the world; the most important person like he's just so smooth and he's not doing it as like a ploy or a gimmick. He's just a nice guy and he really appreciates these people and the businesses they've created. And it's just he's really good on a call.

Joe: It's the unknown secret that we tell all the time to buyers. Look, when it's a great business it's a great opportunity. There are going to be multiple buyers. And it's not always the most money or the most cash that gets the letter of intent. In some cases, it's the buyer that the seller likes the most. And being likable on those conference calls is critically important. Mike does it very well.

Chuck: And one of my businesses; actually I think two of them that Mike purchased, the sellers actually said like I want to sell to him. Make him buy this. It doesn't matter; I mean within reason, right? The price; but they were willing to take less than somebody else because they liked him so much.

Joe: Oh boy. Now if Mike's listening and he paid full price now he's going to be like inaudible[00:23:49.1].

Chuck: That is the problem because of course I did make him pay more than the other people but they were willing to take less. And what's funny is one of my sellers told him as much oh like I would have taken less from you and I'm like don't say that to him.

Joe: In his heart, he was willing to take less but his checkbook and his head was willing to take the highest bidder as long as it was Mike Nunez. That's the key. In your experience both as an entrepreneur and as an adviser here at Quiet Light you've seen a lot of businesses that have come up for first they reach out to us for a valuation, they start thinking about an exit sometimes the day before they want to exit, sometimes months or a year or so in advance. What do you see being the biggest thing; most consistent thing that those particular entrepreneurs do wrong time and time again that there's just if there's one thing you could just like shout into the microphone right now to everyone listening even though some of them are doing it right, what are the majority of folks not doing that that you want them to do to bring more value to their business?

Chuck: Silence question.

Joe: Yeah it was a long one. I kept rambling on in my sentences because I could see you thinking.

Chuck: Yeah.

Joe: Maybe I should have asked a little more.

Chuck: What's weird about at Quiet Light is we actually get so many great businesses to sell. People bring us quality things. So what are some of the bad things people do?

Joe: Let me just get some stats behind that though; because it's true what we bring to market, it's great stuff. But the reality is Chuck if you look at my numbers I've closed 105, 106 transactions in seven years. People say well that's not very many but in order to close those transactions; I've ballparked the math and I've talked to 2,500 entrepreneurs. That's 2,500 valuation calls. Your stats are similar. What is that consistent theme that if you could speak to somebody that someday may sell their business what should they be doing?

Chuck: Sure. So when we talk about like specific like product-level things like when people are just selling random shots keys that aren't unique in any way; those are really difficult to sell. When you have an actual unique product that's got some sort of a brand to it that's not easily knock off-able that there's a moat around it like that makes it so much more desirable to people and so much more valuable. One of the things I also see probably is just P & L's; having clean P & L's. Oftentimes people's profit and loss statements are just a complete mess. They'll lump, they want to save; I was just thinking about a specific one, but you see people are just lumping things in because they know they had a cost but they don't really know when it was or where it was and they just kind of guesstimate things and put them in the wrong ones. So then you'll see like really lumpy P & L's. And we always try to work with people to flatten those out and figure out where the real costs are. So that often takes a lot of time to just figure out what the true P & L is on a business. And for doing add backs; what's a real add back? We fight with people a lot on what's a real add back versus something they think they should be adding back.

Joe: Yeah I want to just step in and shout out that there's no question I think that preparing your business for sale is the number one thing that people don't do. They decide to sell as I say instead of planning to sell. That means they work their tail off. They launch this business. They work like crazy against all odds. They succeed. And it's producing solid revenue and profit for them. And they just burn the candle at both ends and then the candle starts to burn out. And they're emotionally tired, they're frustrated, they're exhausted, and they wake up one morning I'm just not into this. I'm going to sell. I didn't know I could sell but it just occurred to me. I'm done. I'm calling Chuck Mullins. And at that point because they're tired; because they're emotionally worn out they need to sell because trends will go down. They won't do the things that they need to do to keep the business growing and strong and in great shape for somebody else to take over. And so at that point you get those P & L's and you're like yeah Excel is not really accounting software. Ideally Quick Books and Xero or one of the other so that we can run a historical P & L and do year over year trend analysis and look at the metrics. All that is really hard and then there's the commingling. So I'm going to just mention a podcast; not ours, somebody else's. EcomCrewPodcast247. Chuck as you know I sold Mike Jackness' business ColorIt last spring. And Mike is a bright guy. Mike knew exactly what to do as most people in this audience do. They know what to do. And the mindset that Mike had was simply I'll get to it someday. What happens is you end up chasing too many rabbits and that someday comes when you get exhausted and in his case, he had four brands under one LLC and three of them were really not sellable at the time that we decide to list the business. So what does that do? You've got four brands all in one LLC, tax returns commingled, and you're only selling one brand. What does that eliminate?

Chuck: SBA financing.

Joe: SBA financing; exactly. Is it required to get an SBA loan? No it's not to sell a business; absolutely not. We sold multimillion-dollar businesses without an SBA loan. But what it does do is it casts a broader net; buyers. And even some of those buyers; I've had it. Have you had buyers that have more than enough money to stroke a check for a multi-million dollar business but they use SBA?

Chuck: Absolutely why not leverage if you can?

Joe: Yeah, so that's I'd say number one. I'm in total agreement on the documentation. We always talk about that the risk, growth, transferability, and documentation; gets your numbers right, get those P & L's in great shape and it's going to help you learn about your business and set goals and then that passion may get reignited and you may do more in the business and grow it and have a bigger exit someday down the road. It's not that I don't love it when somebody calls me and says I'd like a valuation and part of that is okay, what's your timeframe, when are you ready to sell, right now. Not that I don't mind that; I love that if everything's in great shape. It's just tougher to sell it when it's not. They get a lower value, right?

Chuck: Yup, absolutely. Having those four pillars and the clean books it makes a big difference.

Joe: It really does. I think I'm in total agreement. Buyers or sellers of businesses, get your documents in great shape. The best way to do that, just call, email [email protected], [email protected]. Reach out. It's a service that we provide. I mean what do we do Chuck? We help, help, help, and then keep helping, right?

Chuck: Build value.

Joe: Build the value. It's my; I've got a mentor that I talked to long and hard about all my business opportunities and in this particular one as we chatted about the model and what we do here at Quiet Light he's like well it just sounds like you're giving away all your knowledge for free in hopes that maybe they'll work with you. And I' like that's exactly right. We help first and we're entrepreneurs so there are times that we wish we got good advice and we were too young to listen or there was nobody around to talk to about it. And now we share that when it comes to business values and planning an exit. The number one thing you can do is just reach out to somebody. It's free. Talk to Chuck, he's got a ton of experience.

Chuck: I'll tell you kind of in my entrepreneurial days if I wasn't going to be an entrepreneur I always wanted to be a consultant and help other people. And I never had like the actual desire to go out and build a portfolio and charge people to help them grow their business. But like you said I've been do this since '96. I've met so many businesses; a lot of focus on optimization and SEO and just so many things. And one of the things I actually like about is giving unsolicited advice. So when I'm on all these valuation calls I'm constantly asking people like oh have you tried this, have you thought about this? So even if they're not ready to sell I'm often giving people advice on how to increase their business. And even when I do have listings like I think of one and particularly like I give him so many ideas and then he did those and the business just kept growing. That actually came to bite me because the business grew so much that we ended up pulling it off the market after getting multiple full-price offers because it just had grown so much and he wanted to just wait a little bit and we're going to actually getting ready to relist that here soon.

Joe: It's a good problem, right? I mean I've been in situations that you say it bit you but ultimately this is a long term play for us; it's building relationships and that person respects and appreciates you obviously because he's coming back for some of your entrepreneurial life experience and it's benefited them financially. It's going to grow the business and ultimately they're going to get a bigger value and tell people about what you did. So that was a little bit more about the sellers and the things that they can do and then number one I think we both agree, plan that exit; call somebody, e-mail somebody, get a valuation. It's not going to hurt. What about buyers; biggest mistakes that buyers can make?

Chuck: Disrespecting somebody's business. So getting on a call and like; I'm trying to think of a of a PC term that I could use that's not a profanity, just talking smack about somebody's business, trying to negotiate them down in price, and like trash-talking the business. That doesn't work. At least not at this size but maybe it works when you're dealing with a couple hundred million dollar business or something. I don't know. But at these levels, people care about their businesses at least the ones we sell. Inaudible[00:33:38.9] and when you talk smack like…

Joe: It's personal even at the 15 to 20 million mark. Mark just closed one just under 15 million. It's owned by an individual. When you're talking about a hundred million, yes somebody is up there at the top like their shareholders and the CEOs and COOs and all that and big-time attorneys are in there negotiating. It's not you're talking to the guy across the table that actually built it and owns it for the most part, right? So he cares about it.

Chuck: He worries about it like he's had the baby. I mean you wouldn't believe how many people I've talked to; sellers that cry on the phone about their business like it happens a lot. People are deeply invested emotionally in their business. When somebody comes in and disrespects it for no reason other than they're trying to negotiate, it doesn't go well. You need to be nice. That's what Mike does so well. And I want to keep talking about Mike. Well like…

Joe: Should we talk about Walker again?

Chuck: He's about people and he's nice.

Joe: Let's talk about Walker again then. Actually you're absolutely right. I remember being at the Rhodium Weekend Conference before you were a member of the team here at Quiet Light. Now he's up presenting and talking and I could swear in that environment and I used the word that begins with an A and ends with an E; figure it out, folks. Everybody's got one. And what's the secret to being a great buyer? And I said don't be one; as simple as that. I can see you out there in the audience shaking your head up and down. And that's exactly right. Mike is very nice, very kind. When I sold my business I had people that were well I remember one, in particular, ripping my business to shreds on a conference call; initial call and I'm like why am I even talking to this guy. I'm not selling it to him even if he gives me an offer over asking. And then, strangely enough, the last call, the person that ended up buying my business first thing he said is thanks for creating such a great site. Your products have helped people exactly like me. By the way I took stuff like this and I ran the Boston Marathon actually the Chicago Marathon last month and it's because of products like yours and I said cool. It was actually a really short call; 20-minute call. I didn't ask any great questions I had going on. That was really nice but I don't see he's buying my business and he almost; he bought it almost full price offer.

Chuck: I'll tell you what you just mentioned something that is often overlooked. When you get on these calls don't just wing it; do some research, educate yourself before the call, and ask the right questions. It's so important. So many times I get on a call and the seller or the buyer doesn't ask any decent questions and the seller just writes them off and says let's not take any more calls from that person. They weren't serious. So make sure that you understand the business and you're asking good questions that a good buyer would ask, right?

Joe: Yeah. They don't have to be the most intelligent questions the seller has ever heard but that you've done your research and you care. I mean yeah Chuck you put there together a great package and all the great questions are in there. They just have to dig into them and digest it a little bit and ask the same question in their voice and see if you get the same or similar answer from the client on it. I think that's great. I think you're absolutely right. Too many times there has been a few buyers that they're not prepared for. You can hear them walking down the street getting in the car and it just feels like a complete and utter waste of everyone's time including the person who's making the call and asking the questions. Okay, is there anything else; before we wrap up is there anything else you'd like to say about Walker Diebel?

Chuck: Visit WalkerDiebel.guru to check out his new book that's coming out in a couple of months.

Joe: Let's do this; actually everybody do is too. Go to IMDB and look up Walker Diebel the actor and watch some of the movies he's been in. Add a review, let's see if we can boost that one-star rating up to one and a half.

Chuck: Inaudible[00:37:37.6] tomatoes maybe.

Joe: Alright Chuck, you're a good man. I appreciate you coming on. We'll wrap it up here with time. Any last thoughts for anybody out there thinking about selling their business or buying one; any last pearls of wisdom and I know I didn't prepare you but any last-minute pearls of wisdom?

Chuck: Yeah. I would just say that reach out early. We're not here to be high pressure as far as trying to sign you to sell your business. We're here to lead with value. We're going to offer some hopefully some wisdom that's going to help you sell that business in the future. So don't think that like oh I don't want to reach out because I'm not going to sell it for six months or a year. Talk to us now. Let us help you get the business in shape to sell it later.

Joe: Great advice. That's Chuck Mullins folks. We will be back in the next podcast. See you soon. Thanks, Chuck.

Chuck: Bye-bye. Thanks.

Links and Resources:

Chuck Mullins

Chuck's LinkedIn

Walker Deibel's IMDB

This week we are talking about add backs, what is a legitimate add back, and how they affect your business valuation. The value of a business is dependent on earnings but it is also dependent on the company's discretionary earnings such as the add backs of owner salary and benefits. Then there are those one-offs – those non-recurring expenses which are also known as add backs. Those are the add backs what we are dissecting on today's episode. A seller's due diligence when it comes to discretionary earnings can help buyers see their potential ROI without any grey area.

Episode Highlights:

• Why we work off the seller's discretionary earnings and what that is.
• How discretionary earnings are a case by case calculation for each business.
• The three levels of add backs.
• Why it's important to take a scalpel to those third level add backs.
• Questionable add backs – what can fly what cannot.
• How math and logic are the key tools to determine legitimate add backs.

Transcription:

Mark: Alright, welcome back Joe. I know you just came back from Blue Ribbon Mastermind; Ezra's event. It was up in Seattle, is that right?

Joe: Yeah, a beautiful city and a great event. On a personal level, I had a great time. I took my 17-year-old with me and just explored the city in off-hours. Business-wise I'm telling you Ezra Firestone is sort of the Tony Robbins of the e-commerce world in my view. He gets up there, he's real, he says it like it is, he shares his own information to the Blue Ribbon Mastermind members and it's such actionable, transferable information. And the level of entrepreneurs and intelligence at the Blue Ribbon Mastermind I think is nearly unmatched; it goes very politically correct I think, right, nearly unmatched?

Mark: Yes. I think every conference that we come back from is our latest favorite conference. But Blue Ribbon and Ezra's events have been fantastic since we started going to them. And you're right he's just a fantastic guy. He gives a ton of information and has a ton of insight to share. So one of these days I'm going to get to go to the event instead of you because I want to get in on some of these. Awesome, glad to have you back, we do have a couple of conferences coming up. We will be sending these out in our email; our newsletters that go out every Thursday or Friday depending on when we get our stuff together so pay attention to those. Alright, this week Joe you and I are going to do the podcast.

Joe: That's right we have two very special guests.

Mark: Two very special guests; that's right. We're not bringing anybody else in on this one because we want to talk about add backs; what is a valid add back or what is a legitimate add back? And I know for a buying perspective this can be a little jarring the first time. If you're just coming into the acquisitions industry; if you're looking for your first acquisition and you look at a profit and loss statement that we provide you might be wondering well why are these guys throwing all these expenses back at me, these were on the tax returns shouldn't they be included? So Joe why don't we start with that? Why do we work off to this number of seller's discretionary earnings and what is seller's discretionary earnings?

Joe: That's a good question and a great place to start. Just defining it simply is the best way to go. So when you're running a profit loss statement as a business owner; hopefully in Quick Books or Xero or something like that, you're going to get a net income line at the bottom. So let's say you do it for the trailing 12 months you get a net income. But there are certain owner benefits that you get as the owner of the business. You have an Internet-based business; you may write your car off in that business. You may pay yourself $200,000 salary in the business. All sorts of things like that they're generally owner benefits and then there are some one-time non-recurring expenses; these are things that do not carry forward to the new owner so they're classified as add backs. So net income plus add backs equals seller's discretionary earnings or SDE. It is what business is in this general category are multiplied by; they're valued at a multiple of the trailing 12 months seller's discretionary earnings. So that's the critical nature of an add back; it can make a tremendous difference in the value of the business when using a proper formula. If you don't do that the add backs properly you're either going to under inflate or in some cases, unfortunately, some inexperienced brokers might over-inflate the value of your business. So it's critical for both buyers and sellers to know how to calculate seller's discretionary earnings and what is a valid or legitimate add back.

Mark: Yeah and I think on that the thing I would like to just add here and emphasize is that there are rules to seller's discretionary earnings. I know I've talked to some sellers, I've talked to some other brokers frankly outside of Quiet Light Brokerage and they feel as if well if you can make an argument for it then we can add it back and they approach this almost as if it's just a free for all as to who can make the best argument. The fact of the matter is there is an actual definition for seller's discretionary earnings and there are rules to follow. Now that doesn't mean that there aren't some situations that require interpretation. And we're going to go into some of those scenarios in this podcast today where you have to try and figure out is this a legitimate add back or not? But at the heart of seller's discretionary earnings when we are showing seller's discretionary earnings what we want to do is we want to show a baseline number for buyers to understand what is my potential return on investment? When you think about all the different buyers that are going to look at a potential opportunity, every buyer comes with their own set of assumptions, right? Some buyers might already have infrastructures set up to run a business; maybe they already have a marketing team in place or maybe they' already have a warehouse if it's an e-commerce business or if it's a SaaS business maybe they already have a development team in place. Those assumptions need to be worked into their own evaluation of the business. What we want to show is a baseline number so that you as a buyer can figure out what your potential return on investment is for you. And that's going to vary from one buyer to the next. So seller's discretionary earnings that's all it is; it's a baseline number, we want to be consistent from one business to the next that's why there are rules as to how we calculate this number.

Joe: Right and even though combined we've got 20 years of experience doing this and have sold well over a hundred million in transactions just the 2 of us combined it's still a case by case basis and you got to dig into each particular business and get an understanding of the nuances of it to determine whether or not it's worth doing an add back based upon the size of the business and the total number of add backs and if it should be done. Generally speaking, there are 3 different levels of add backs; the first 2 are pretty standard, it's the third one that we want to spend the most time on today because of the nuances of them. But let's run through that first and second level. Mark, if you want to start off with that first level why don't you address the owner's salaries in add back.

Mark: Yeah, absolutely. Joe, I like the format you put together here. You created these 3 levels of add backs; the obvious, the one time expenses, and then the ones that require a bit more interpretation. So the very top of the list here are these a level one obvious add backs. We have things like charitable donations; obviously, that's purely discretionary nature. We have accounting expenses such as amortization and depreciation. And then we have one owner salary. And I know there are buyers out there that look at this and say well why are you adding back somebody's salary; like you need to pay yourself some money? But this is a standard add back that we always include and it's part of the standard definition for seller's discretionary earnings. The reason for this is how you pay yourself as an owner, how much you pay yourself, and the format you pay yourself is completely discretionary. You could in theory not pay yourself any salary and just take distributions from the company from the profits. Or you can pay yourself a very large salary and run all your payroll tax through that which will show up on the profit and loss statement. What we do for the owner's discretionary earnings we do add back one owner salary. But there is an exception to this and that's if there's multiple owners that are working full time on the business. Because we know that if there's multiple owners working on a business you can't add back all of their salary. You can only add back one. Did I explain that well Joe or does that need more?

Joe: Let's go a little bit more. What happens; what do you do Mark if you have 2 owners that are working a combined 25 hours a week, one is doing customer service and logistics, and the other is doing sales and marketing. Do you add them both back?

Mark: I would add both those back.

Joe: Okay. Let's flip it up; let's say that one is doing sales, marketing, logistics, and the other is a developer. And the level of work that that developer does still only takes 15, 20 hours a week but it takes a different skill set than the average person has. Do you add them both back?

Mark: No, I would not add both those back. Although we will discuss this in Level 3 add back. I might adjust that second owner salary depending on what they're getting. But the reason I wouldn't do it is because of the specialized nature of it. So what we're assuming here is that the buyer is a single person who is coming in and needs to run this business. I wouldn't expect most buyers to have developer skills to run a business. So maybe you do; if you do, that's great you're going to do really, really well. But most people can't be that sales and marketing plus developer role. I've done this for over a dozen years now. I've run across that skill set a handful of times. It's not very, very common.

Joe: That's right. So those are the; even though these are just Level 1 add backs there are some complexities to it that require some attention to detail on the nuances of one business to the next. The only other things that are pretty obvious in there are personal meals and entertainment, travel, mobile home…mobile phones; everybody's got their own mobile phone that expense doesn't charge for. You've already got that expense. Things of that nature are pretty much Level 1 add backs. Jumping on the Level 2 add backs it's really focused on those one-time expenses; things like a trademark or a copyright, patents, things of that nature. And then there are some that are a little bit deeper like legal expenses and lawsuits and enforcement letters and things of that nature even the thing that we have to do often Mark which is referring potential clients; people that we do valuations for that are not using a kind of software. We'll refer them out to a bookkeeper. So in this situation Mark, tell me if we're on the same page. We will get a call somebody has got a great business but they've got 3 years of data in an Excel spreadsheet that is not using any accounting software. Or they might be using Fetcher and piecing different pieces together. I would refer them out to a bookkeeper like CapForge, MuseMinded, Stellar Accounting, Catching Clouds; one of those and get them on Quick Books or Xero. And generally, that's a one time expense for them to build that, put that data in the software in arrears maybe $1,500, $2,000. To me, that is without a doubt a one-time expense and an add back; would you agree with that?

Mark: Yeah I would and I'm glad that we agreed because if we don't it's just going to be an absolute brawl on the podcast, right? Inaudible[00:11:27.2] here is fighting with the microphones. No, absolutely that would be a one time expense. It's something that does not carry forward. But we have a great example of that with somebody who's been a friend of Quiet Light Brokerage for a while; Scott Deetz from Northbound Group. He's a strategic advisor who helps clients in a lot of ways. He does a fantastic job with his clients. Specifically a lot of Amazon stores but he also works with other companies as well. He does forecasting and a lot of preparation for an exit. And his fees are all one time expenses. Even though that you can see a monthly fee during that preparation, the goal is to prepare for an exit. So those are fees that get added back in the bottom line. So recasting books going back and trying to recast those books either in accrual format or just cleaning them up I would totally consider that to be a one time expense. As with the other things that you mentioned; the trademarks and the logo design, you shouldn't be punished for the expenses that are really necessary to be able to run the business or only occur once or will occur in the future.

Joe: Yeah. And there is again always nuances; sometimes an owner is going to buy a new computer. But it's their new laptop that they use and they're going to keep that and it's not going to carry for you then that's a one time expense; things of that nature, a case by case basis from business. So again nuances, deep-diving into the business, no 2 are alike.

Mark: I have been hearing you say this for a long time our own kind of sliding into this Level 3. But in Level 3 you always say math and logic Mark; it's for math and logic. What makes sense? How does the math work out? And look this actually works out for Level1 and Level 2 as well. You have to use math and logic. But Level 3 is where we start getting into the interpretation of different expenses, right? Because these are the grey area ones where maybe it's not as straightforward as saying amortization and depreciation; that's a pretty obvious add back. Charitable donations; pretty obvious add back. So let's go into this Level 3 and get some examples on a case by case basis. Here are things that we've seen in the past which; look at Quiet Light we've actually had some pretty big discussions with all of the advisors of Quiet Light that we have this large group chats and sometimes we've disagreed in trying to work out how we should actually treat these expenses. And I want to start out with one that Joe you and I have talked about a lot and that would be events, trade shows, and Mastermind fees; how do you handle those?

Joe: I almost moved this to the bottom of the list so we didn't start off with one that is pretty tough and it was talked about a lot. This is a case by case basis. If somebody joins a Mastermind group in the trailing 12 months prior to selling their business and they pay $20,000 to join that group, it's a one time expense; absolutely an add back, it kind of moves up to Level 2. But let's say they also choose to go to an annual event that that Mastermind group has. And they do that at their own expense; let's say they go to Seattle, I was just at Blue Ribbon, those people that were in Blue Ribbon; I'm sorry at the Seattle event not all of them were at the Miami event just 6 months prior and so it's definitely a choice to go to the event or not. Some people never go. There are lots of people that are in eCommerceFuel that we've never met because they never go to any of the events. So the choice to go to an event, it's an expense that doesn't carry forward. It's one that I see as an add back. Our team has talked about it quite a bit; that's an add back. But there are other types of Masterminds and events; we'll call them events in this situation that are not add backs that you and I have talked about. So if you are an advertising agency or any kind of company that's going to these events to build your company brand and reputation even amongst the people that are part of the Mastermind it's integral to your business. Like us, we go and we sponsor. That's integral to our business; our business models. We are sponsoring, we're getting our own brand and our own name out there; that's not an add back. An ad agency does the same but might just be a member of the Mastermind or events and is doing training courses in free valuations or free testing things of that nature we would have to really dig down into that one and determine if it's an add back or not. And it's probably not an add back. But for the rest of the folks most likely an add back; the only adjustment you and I have talked about that is we'd have to look at and say logically does it make sense to add this back? Do we have 2 lines of add backs? Is it a business that's valued at 250,000 or 2.5 million? Sometimes you say you know what at this level it's not worth adding it back; let's just leave it alone it's only going to add you another $300 per month back to it and you can play with a multiple in that situation. Would you agree?

Mark: Yeah I absolutely agree. You have to pick your battles on this and if you have to really fight to be able to justify an add back you should look at it and say is it really worth it? Like is it is a big enough expense where I'm going to gain enough potential value out of adding it back and making that argument. I want to throw a little wrinkle at you, Joe. We have not discussed this before and it's a question that I'd like to get your opinion on. The difference I see between these Mastermind fees, events, travel-related expenses would fall under this idea of is it a personal development or business development, right? I don't add back the business books I buy. The business books I buy are personal development and I consider that to be just for myself. Obviously, there's a business application for that. I want to become better at what I'm doing but I think that's more personal related. So the line I see is again this idea between is it development for business or is it personal development? So if I go to Pubcon without really putting Quiet Light name on it I'm just an attendee I would consider that to be a valid add back. Let's go into a scenario where you have an employee; let's say that you have somebody who works specifically as a content writer for you and is possibly doing SEO and you send them to MASCON because you want them to become better at SEO for the purpose of your business. How would you handle something like that?

Joe: It's off the top my head not an add back. But then you've got to look at the history of the business because that's business development, right? You got to look at the history of it; is that something that they're going to do every year, are they're going to get new information every year and develop their skills, are they going to send different employees, have they done it for the last 2 or 3 years? You got to look at all those nuances again and determine whether or not it's an add back. But because it falls in that business development versus personal development I think you and I know everybody on the team would lean towards no that's not an add back.

Mark: I would agree. So again this is where you have to kind of take a fine scalpel here and kind of slice this up and really understand what's going on behind this add back. And again as you went out with this Joe math and logic and I think reason as well. You have to be sort of reasonable with some of these so that it's not just you're going through; sometimes I see sellers come back with their own add back schedules and they're super aggressive and every last dime is trying to be added back. And it's a question at some point where you have to ask them what can we really say is a reasonable add back versus just being as aggressive as possible?

Joe: Right. So let's take that scalpel and dig down into a P & L for instance; of course we're not doing it live here, but one of the things that that when you peel back the different layers that we always ask the question okay you're spending a lot of money on advertising here; what type of credit card are you using for that advertising? And then are you getting points back on that, what are you doing with those points? 9 times out of 10 people are doing cashback credit cards or converting them over to travel but they're pushing all that over on the personal side of that's an owner benefit. It's income, right? You're getting cash back, you spend $10,000 you get $400 back. If you spend $10,000 a month on advertising and you get that $400 back and you slide it over to your personal side and it never shows up on your profit and loss statement we need to look at it closely. It's an add back. You can multiply that times whatever number you want and then make the decision, right Mark whether it's worth it to add that back or not. Jason and I had a listing that we worked on last fall where there were about $24,000 in cashback points added up over the course of 12 months and it was very, very measurable; clear and distinct because that person spent a lot of money on advertising plus he bought used inventory that was going to be refurbished. And he bought them from different places on the web. And all of that was done with a credit card. All of that was converted to cashback points that moved over to his personal side; amounted to about $25,000 on an annual basis. It's a significant number. The business was listed at a 4 time multiple. It was cash in his pocket so we did add that back and it bumped the valuation by $100,000. If we're talking about a business that's $4M but that amounts to $3,000 then maybe you don't add it back. You just got to play around with those numbers a little bit and again use more math and logic there.

Mark: Yeah and I think here that the key that I would look at would be the consistency of it. If you're advertising budget is over $100,000 a month for example and you're putting that on your Amex gold card and part of your strategy is look I'm getting some margin from the points I'm getting back; that's pretty obvious in that category of its part of your existing business model. But like you said if you have just kind of a small amount of points, it's probably not worth the effort to put that in there and try and justify that. So I think that's pretty reasonable. Joe one question that we hear a decent amount would be website redesigns and we can also throw in here product development or even in the SaaS world development on a SaaS product. Why don't we start to unpack some of these and we'll start with the website redesigns. Obviously, most people who have a web-based business unless you're purely Amazon have a website and part of that is you're going to have to redesign the website every now and then. I mean there are some sites out there that have look exactly the same since 2000 but most businesses do update that and those can be expensive. You can easily drop 10, 20, 30, $40,000 on that if not more. So how would you approach website redesigns or website redevelopments?

Joe: I would look at the history in the P & L to get a clue of the way the business has been run because that's the way it's going to be operated in the future. And if there's never been a website redesign and it's on a good current up to date platform like Shopify and the business is trending in all the right directions then; obviously there's been a website redesign because that's the point of this add back so let's say that it's been done in the last 12 months but had never been done before and the business is 7 or 8 years old and it's just been put on a new platform and they spent $20,000 on it I would say that; and I have in the past done 100% add-back on that website redesign. But again it varies from business to business. If I'm looking at a business that's operated like Quiet Light Brokerage just by example you have a tendency to redesign the website often. I think there's been 3 or 4 versions of it in the last 7 years that I've been with Quiet Light. So, in that case, it's either simply not an add back or you do some math and let's say you're going to redesign a website every 3 years you might take that cost; $10,000 website redesign and add back 50% of it or a third of it and things of that nature. Because if it happened in the last 12 months it's not an expense that's going to happen in the next 12 months so there has to be some mathematical adjustment there. And again math and logic; look how often it's been redesigned, do the math on when in the future would you redesign again, and just do partial adjustment more often than not.

Mark: Yeah, I would agree 100%. And the thing to look for here obviously if it's on the last 12 months it probably isn't going to get looked at too closely. But I think you have to look at why. Like the Quiet Light website gets redesigned a decent amount and that's simply because I get anxious about stuff like that. That's just kind of what I do. I'm always tweaking; always thinking that I should dust scraps and start it over again. And so I actually do think with Quiet Light it's mostly discretionary in nature but again this reasonableness needs to come in.

Joe: Not always discretionary but it takes 12 months every time that you start.

Mark: It's absolutely ridiculous.

Joe: Why don't you touch on product development? It's interesting you bring that up. I've got a physical products e-commerce business and I'm developing new products; do I get to add that cost back?

Mark: Yeah I think again we need to use math and logic here, a little bit of reasonableness, take a look at what type of business you are in. Here's the thing about e-commerce; Chad Reuben when he was on the podcast about a year ago mentioned this, product development is the lifeblood of most e-commerce businesses; you rarely, rarely run across a business that is truly evergreen with its product or you never have to iterate. Apple comes out with an iPhone every year. Android products are constantly coming out with a new phone every year. Car companies constantly come out with a new car every single year. Product development is the lifeblood of businesses. So on that note no I don't think that you can add back product development costs. I do think maybe if you're coming out with like a large truly one time sort of burst maybe I would look at it.

Joe: Maybe if there's a mold, right? If you paid $5,000 for a mold of that product that mold is going to last 10, 20 years perhaps. That mold maybe partial add back but yeah I'm 100% on the same page; product development is the lifeblood of a business. The molds thing is so rare; 105 businesses I think I've sold in the last 7 years and I think maybe only Sean van der Wilt's business has actual molds that are part of it and that he owned. In other cases, it's generally the manufacturer that has the mold anyway. So yeah adding back product development expenses can't really do it. What about the SaaS development? We're not all e-commerce here; we're selling content and SaaS and things of that nature as well. You've got a developer that's been doing some certain projects within the last 12 months; are you adding that back? Is that black and white?

Mark: It is not black and white but I do think that if you are looking at for example your initial build of the software that's going to be very intense, very cost-intensive. That I think could be added back. Regular maintenance, regular feature updates; absolutely not because a SaaS business needs to have updates, needs to have new features added. If you're going to redevelop the entire SaaS product from the ground up; maybe you're switching technology stacks, that's something where I would take a look at that and again reason and logic need to really…math and logic really need to reign with this. But generally speaking no; just as product development is the lifeblood of an e-commerce business, software development is the lifeblood of a SaaS business.

Joe: We are 100% on the same page. There is no question about it.

Mark: No fights here, thank goodness.

Joe: Yeah. We've got 3 points left and really the last 2 points I think are ones that get missed most often and can add a tremendous amount of value to the business. But the first one of the 3 here is pretty obvious and maybe we could have we actually talked about moving this up into Level 1 but it's a repaid relative. I sold a business a couple of years ago where the owner of the business paid his brother to do customer service. They paid him $20 an hour for 20 hours a week worth of work. I talked to the brother. I talked about his job and what he did. He said yeah I really only put in about 5 hours a week. Most of what I do is automated; it's canned responses with customer service. And so we talked about the work and the level of detail there and just added some logic there and some math and said look you are grossly overpaid. Your brother loves you. I'm going to suggest that he fires you; and again this is just before Christmas, of course, he didn't.

Mark: Oh my you told him to fire his brother. We've talked about this before.

Joe: I know. It was a $10,000 add back or whatever the number was. So we just did some math, right? We said alright how much does it cost to get a really good high-quality virtual assistant; $4 or $5 an hour. Okay, let's double that. We know you're only working 5 hours a week but we're going to go with you 20 hours a week times whatever the number is and we're going to add it back. So instead of the $20 an hour times 20 hours we took $10 an hour on those 20 hours a week and we added back the adjustment there. It's in black in white in the add back section with an explanation of why. So math and logic applied to a situation like that; that overpaid relative and it absolutely works and is am add back. And it has to be a big enough number to be an add back. In this case, the total add back was a pretty sizable number. So pretty clear there in my view would you agree with that on Mark?

Mark: Yeah I had a guy who had a really cool business. His mom was doing his bookkeeping and he was paying her $250,000 a year for her bookkeeping services.

Joe: What?

Mark: That's a pretty expensive bookkeeper. That's a pretty obvious case of look it's a relative; he's paying his mom good for him, what a great son; better son than I am to my mom, and pretty obvious add back. And look I'm going to tie in something that we had from Level 1 here and that is where you have 2 owners and you brought up the example one owner is business development and marketing, sales and marketing and the other one is a developer. And I said well we should take a look at that developer side probably and probably not add back his salary but you've got to take a look at how much is he getting paid. I'm dealing with a client who has that sort of set up and the developer side; they're both getting paid the same amount of money and it's basically the profits of the business. We're going to add back in a reasonable and a pretty generous salary for a replacement development. And that's kind of the way that we would look at that is what is a replacement cost? You don't want to be super aggressive on that. It's got to be reasonable. It might be a little bit generous to say here's what the replacement of this person would cost. So you can do that with relatives. It can get a little bit tricky. I had one company that I dealt with where literally the company was basically run by this guy's family which brought up some issues with the transferability of the business. Because there were so many people involved that were family related but they were all getting these big fat paychecks. And so if we had gone to market; we didn't go to market with that one but we would have had to go in and try to find reasonable replacement costs for most of these people which will be then a little tricky.

Joe: Yeah. Look, I can assure all sellers out there; all business owners that are smart enough to do some thinking and planning in advance of a sale, your buyers are going to be intelligent people that are going to be thorough and diligent. And doing that logical adjustment that Mark just talked about for that developer who's your business partner that is a non-transferable skill you've got to hire that out. You're just going to have to do that and it's going to help build trust and help you achieve your goals in getting your business sold. If we have to push the multiple if it makes sense because there's other amazing trends in the business then we can push the multiple a little higher as long as it's still within a reasonable area. The next add back is one that I just did this year as an example with Mike Jackness when we sold Color It. And I'm going to go ahead and mention the podcast series that Mike and I did because I think it's invaluable for both buyers and sellers to listen to and Mark I'm going to just tell you right now I think that you and I did a decent job in doing the intro for the podcast and then me doing an interview with Mike on our podcast. Mike did a much better job on his podcast. So I'm going to point people…

Mark: They're actually pros at this. They're very good at it. We're just kind of fly by the seat of their pants.

Joe: Yeah. He did an amazing job. And he actually did a series of 4 in total; 2 of them were with me and the one at the beginning one at the end was with his staff, his staff down in the Philippines before and after the sale. So he went through the whole arc. But it's episode 247 of the EcomCrew Podcast and the first one was Preparing Your Business For Sale and the second one was What It Was Like Going Through Due Diligence And Actually Getting It Sold. Now one of the things that we focused on in Mike's add back schedule was cost of goods sold. Let me give some just general numbers here; broad examples, these aren't actually from his business but let's say that what he did do was he renegotiated the cost of goods sold on one particular ASIN. He could have done it on more if he had planned in advance of selling his business instead of deciding to sell his business because he was emotionally ready to move on. We could have waited another year and he would have had a much more valuable business. But we didn't do that because he was ready. So in this situation again it's magic and loss; math and logic; oh my goodness, see this is why Mike's podcast is better…math and logic.

Mark: Well I'm sure a lot of buyers out there look at sleaze and say this doesn't look like magic; it doesn't make sense.

Joe: I said magic and loss; oh man, oh man. We're not editing that out. Chris, don't touch that. Alright, so Mike renegotiated the cost of goods sold on 1 ASIN. The reduction in cost was it came down $1.60. It was already on the books. He already had product in Amazon FBA and it was shipping and it's been in FBA already for 2 months. What we did; it was a $1.60, so what we did was we looked at the sales per month of that ASIN for the other 10 months going back in the P & L took that dollar amount and multiplied it times $1.60. Let's just say for simple math it was 1,000 units a month, right? I say simple math but here I am looking to the other calculator. If you got 1,000 units a month times $1.60 we're looking at 1,600 dollars a month times 10 months it's a $16,000 mathematical and absolutely legitimate add back; math and logic there. That times the multiple applied to the business; let's just say if it's 3 times that's a sizable add back, it's $54,000, no, $48,000. How's my math?

Mark: We'll 48,000. On this I want to go back to where we started this conversation; why do we do these add backs at all? Again it's the idea that we want to show a buyer they're expected return on investment and we want to show a set number standardized approach so that you can interject your own assumptions. And the reason that this is completely valid to do even though you can take a look and say well the actual expenses were not this is because this is the forward-looking numbers that we know are going; the way that the business is going to be run in the future.

Joe: That 10 months of expenses there will not carry forward so we needed to make an adjustment for that.

Mark: Exactly the only thing we would need to verify would be in due diligence the supplier is going to give the same or similar terms to the new buyer. That would be the only thing that we really need to confirm there. So I think this makes complete sense.

Joe: 100%.

Mark: Did you get any pushback from buyers on that?

Joe: Not an ounce and the buyer that bought the business is; I mean he went to Harvard, he's a very smart guy, he's bought 4 other businesses from Quiet Light Brokerage, and he understands all of this. And he's got investors that review everything so no pushback at all.

Mark: Yeah. Alright, next one on your list you have here reduced fees times units sold.

Joe: Look, everyone listening that's considering a sale of their business this last one is why you cannot have one conversation with a business broker for 30 minutes and decide that that's the one you've got to go with because if they're incredibly good at sales they're going to talk you into something in 30 minutes. Now I shouldn't say that because; well, look you've done research on Quiet Light, you've listened to the podcast, you've listened to different examples so maybe you can but you got to dig deep. This happened to me recently in like the third conversation on having in a review of the profit and loss statement. This is why we review profit and loss statements. We learned that the owner of this particular business that I'm talking about repackaged; worked on repackaging all of his product SKUs and in doing so it changed the level of pick pack and ship at Amazon. So he was at let's say Level 5 and he came down at Level 4; now these are costs. They're not called that but his fees at Amazon went down. Let's call it a dollar. So instead of $5 pick pack and ship fee, it was $4 because it was a smaller package, lighter package, things of that nature. So he did that. Again let's go to the same thing we did here with Jackness's business. He did it in the last 2 months, it's on the books for the last 2 months, so we're going to the prior 12 months and went okay how many units did you sell during those prior 12 months or 10 months times a dollar per unit and we're doing an add back for that because that adjusted expense in the past went away and it does not carry forward; same thing, different scenario.

Mark: Yup, absolutely. So I think there's 2 ways when we're looking at some of these kind of I don't want to creative add backs but the ones that require a little bit more explanation. The one thing that I would just encourage people to keep in mind is that when we see some of these add backs which go back and recast numbers there are some situations where it makes sense to rather than going back and doing that add back bake in some of the value into the multiple as opposed to the trailing 12 months. If we keep in mind that the basic approach to estimate in value in a basic valuation approach would be your trailing 12 months discretionary earnings times some multiple, it doesn't matter if you increase your discretionary earnings by 10% or increase your multiple by 10%; the result on your valuation is going to be the same. And so I think there is a little bit of discretion and strategy that needs be taken into account by both the broker and the seller when it comes to determining where do we want to get this value in. The thing you need to always keep in mind is are you actually offering real value to a potential buyer? Is this really going to be valuable for the forward-looking future for that; I don't know if there's a backward-looking future, for the future of the new owner of the business and where are they going to get that value? So you might be hearing this and thinking this is pretty complex I don't know if these things would be really a legitimate add back or not. Look if you find this difficult that's because some of it is and some of it does require discussion. And as I said at the beginning we have these discussions at Quiet Light all the time. We will share something with the entire team and say what do you guys think this? Here's what I'm thinking, I should have it added back. And sometimes we disagree but we always are able to figure out where that line should be. So I'm going to just throw this invite out; if you have a question on whether or not something would be an add back ask us. Hound us and say what do you think of this; do you think this would be a legitimate add back or not? And that would be on the buy-side or on the sell-side. If you're look at an opportunity and maybe with another broker or directly with the seller and they're adding something back and want to know what our thoughts are let us know. We'd love to weigh in on it.

Joe: Let's route another invite there and let's find a way to do an actual valuation; we'll do video as well as audio. We'll remove the client's names. We'll just use first name and we won't use the business name. And we'll do it sort of Mike Jackness, Ecom Crew Under The Hood Valuation and record it so everybody can hear the process we go through. Man that being in a 2 or 3 part series because it's such a long in-depth, detailed process. The only thing I want to throw is that we are developing webinars here at Quiet Light that will be up on the new 48-month long redesign that Mark's been working on. Yes that's a little wise-ass comment there but the webinars will be up, they will be available in detail for you folks to dig deeper and see us go through some of this add back schedule in the process of doing one that is titled "What's a Legitimate Add Back?" and all of this will be in webinar format where you can see actual profit and loss statements and whatnot.

Mark: Sounds great. I look forward to doing those. I don't have anything else on add backs. I think we've just covered the entire topic as deeply as you possibly could actually no we could probably talk for another couple of episodes in some of these things but I don't have anything else to add for this one. Do you have anything Joe?

Joe: No, we're good. It was great having 2 very special guests on the podcast; one much more special. According to Andrew Youderian, you're special.

Mark: I like that guy. He's such a good guy, isn't he?

Joe: Andy Youderian. Has anybody reached out to him with my little Easter egg stuff that I did on the video? But we're not showing the video yet, right?

Mark: I had and actually we are showing the video and that's something for you guys to know. Subscribe to us on YouTube at Quiet Light Academy. These podcasts are now up in video form so you can look at our pretty faces while you listen to us argue about add backs. I don't think anyone has reached out to him about the little Easter egg we had in that podcast episode. Because I talked to him recently and he didn't bring it up.

Joe: So for those that have no idea what we're talking about and have stuck with us at the end of this podcast here's the deal. I was driving down the road listening to the Quiet Light Podcast where Mark had Andrew on with state of the e-commerce.

Mark: One of the best episodes I think we ever did.

Joe: Whatever you say Mark. I think this is the best episode we've ever done. Alright, so Andrew says yeah you guys have been doing a really good job. I got to tell you Mark I think you have a bit of an edge over Joe. Because Mark and I always competing with who's got the best episodes and the most downloads. And I swear I almost; I had to pull over I was laughing so out. It was so, so funny. He's a bit of a prankster. So I figured I'd get him back. And so I had an Incredible Exit Series on, we had somebody; actually it was an Incredible Acquisition, right? Karl Selle bought Smart And Fresh and so we had Karl on a podcast about that and during the podcast I pretended that our producer Chris interrupted us and handed me a sheet that it was kind of an emergency, he was looking to get in touch with somebody named Andy Youderian. I could not pronounce Andrew's name properly. But for those that go to the YouTube channel you'll see that I have an EcommerceFuel t- shirt on and that the EcommerceFuel podcast is in the background; a mouse pad is in the background. So clearly I know Andrew Youderian. I want to call him Youderainan from now on. Clearly I know Andrew. My kind would call those Easter eggs. I think that's what they're officially called in Marvel movies. So I just threw in a few Easter eggs there. It was kind of fun. We did get one person that sent an e-mail to me and he goes I think the person that your producer is looking for is Andrew Youderian for EcommerceFuel. And I said well that was kind of a joke. I had to send a note back. But it was kind of fun.

Mark: Well he was right though. It is the person we're looking for. We have an Easter egg coming up in one of the movie quotes so you guys have to dig deep on these movie quotes. And I don't know which episode it's going to be live on. Listen to the different intros. There's going to be one that you're going to have a really hard time finding but I'll tell you what I want you to find this one whenever it airs. That's really, really difficult and I will get with our producer next week's podcast and make sure that we give you a little hint as to which podcast to listen to for this movie quote because it's just an absolute gem.

Joe: Awesome. Let's wrap it up with that.

Links and Resources:

ECom Crew Episode

Quiet Light Academy YouTube

The current China trade tariff threats have the entire e-commerce world up in arms and seeking solutions to undercut some of these rising costs. Today's guest has a perfectly legitimate way to avoid tariffs and import duties for merchant-fulfilled retail models. Bobby Armijio's company, Baja Fulfillment, offers logistics that help clients shave costs in the fulfillment supply chain.

It's so simple in it's execution that it is almost too good to be true.

Third-party logistics solutions in Mexico allow retailers selling B2C products to avoid tariffs and duties in the USA. These retailers are shipping to US customers from Mexican warehouses, where they avoid tariffs on goods that cost less than $800. This is an important episode for the e-commerce business owner looking to increase margins in their supply chain as well as for any buyer seeking an easy and attainable bump in equity.

Episode Highlights:

• Bobby describes the framework of Section 321 and the IMMEX laws.
• Where the savings comes into play for the e-commerce retailer.
• Why FBA cannot work with this tariff saving model.
• Normal e-commerce fulfillment vs Baja Fulfillment.
• Bobby walks us through the process step by step.
• Other logistics and fulfillment services Baja offers.
• Average savings per client.
• The three hard costs of fulfillment.
• Why the model is almost too good to be true.
• How Bobby's services can kick the can down the road on some duties and increase cash flow for retailers, even FBA.

Links and Resources:

Baja Fulfillment

Email Bobby

The more a seller expands his net, the more buyers he can catch. Often on the Amazon seller revenue lines we see the lack of traction on the international side of the game. How can you get your brand safely and productively into other Amazon Markets? The truth is that Amazon UK or any other country off the .com grid are potential revenue streams and expansion opportunities if approached in the right way. Today's guest walks us through that expansion process step by step so that business owners and buyers can envision the opportunities to be had.

Kevin Sanderson is a multiple six figure seller with over three years of experience on Amazon. When he started out simply selling on Amazon he had one item and very quickly turned that into about 80 skus. He learned that by expanding into the international marketplace he could target products that he could plug into that market successfully. He has a passion for helping others successfully sell on Amazon's International Marketplaces via his website and podcast and is here to tell you how you can succeed beyond dot com.

Episode Highlights:

• Which products are best for which country and where to start in the sell.
• Reasons Kevin recommends starting in Canada to get your feet wet.
• Where to go next and how to get over the translation hurdle overseas.
• Why Germany stands out in the arena.
• The recommended steps and estimated time-frame for the expansion process.
• What Amazon offers by way of help.
• Differences in taxation in the international marketplaces.
• How to approach the customer service aspect in those markets.
• Services that Kevin offers for someone looking to expand internationally.
• The importance of attending ECommerce events for opening doors and connecting.

Transcription:

Mark: Joe welcome back from your vacation, you've been gone for a few weeks and Quiet Light Brokerage absolutely nothing happened because you aren't here.

Joe: Did you missed me at all? I think I had an email reminder, a notification in there that said if you really need me find me on Whatsapp and no one needed me at all which is very humbling. The reality is that we think we're really important cogs of the wheel and if there's enough cogs you're not so nobody missed you at all.

Mark: Well the truth is actually people would email you and then they would get my email and then I was home that they don't want to work with you they actually want to work with me so I've just been picking off all your potential clients.

Joe: I love it, no, take all those 10 million dollar listings. Thanks, I appreciate that.

Mark: Absolutely I appreciate it too, very much, and so does my wife. Anyways this week I want to talk about something that we've seen a lot of with Amazon Sellers. We look at these P&Ls and oftentimes what you see are these revenue lines on the P&Ls where it's your typical Amazon sales coming through and then you see this Amazon UK or Amazon Europe or something like that and you see some revenue kind of pop and then trail off after a while. And when you talk to the client or the seller about this the backstory is always the same. I thought about expanding to Europe and UK but I didn't really gain traction there and it was just a lot more work than I really anticipated so we've decided not to really do that. The fact is though Amazon UK, Amazon Europe, Amazon Canada, and some of these other countries are really, really good expansion opportunities but you have to go about it the right way and that's not always as straight forward as putting the product up and launching that store. You talked to somebody who we guess went over exactly in that process how do you actually expand into in other markets on Amazon.

Joe: Yeah it's Kevin Sanderson from Maximizing Ecommerce. He's affiliated or associated with Scott Voelker who we enjoy from the Amazing Seller and Brand Accelerator Live. And Kevin talks about just that. Okay if you're going to expand start here then go there and then go there so that you're getting your feet wet and doing it in a way where you're learning without getting so frustrated you just throw your hands up and walk away which as he said I see too often. Interestingly enough yesterday I'm doing a valuation call and exactly what you talked about revenue line for Amazon.com and Amazon Europe overseas and there were 3 or 4 months of revenue starting to climb, climb, climb, and then nothing because that particular individual just got frustrated. She didn't think she was going to get a bang for a buck there because it was so complicated and confusing for her. But the reality is she took on too much all at once. Kevin's approach is more methodical and I like it. It's simple. It's clean. It's logical. It's not going to be earth-shattering for anybody listening. But what it is going to do is going to give them reinforcement to what they probably already know and what they should do and hopefully will do as well.

Mark: Yeah fantastic topic we do have a shout out to give to somebody who guessed the right intro to one of our podcast and you got that email, Joe.

Joe: I did it's from Westin Woodelf, I've got a cold after this vacation, Westin Woodelf, he sent me an email actually while I was on vacation. It is one of the very few emails that I checked. He guessed The Founder which is the story of McDonald's the movie clip. So shout out to you Westin and thanks for listening. I appreciate all the kind words and I assure you we will get more people that bought e-commerce businesses or online businesses from us and we'll get them back on the podcast 6, 12 months after that something that he said he enjoys listening to Mark and wants to hear more of.

Mark: Yeah and you know I went to a meetup; a shout out to the people that I met up with for the Rhodium Minneapolis Red Calibers meet up just a couple of weeks ago. I got some good feedback on the podcast there as well you know the point here being not to say guys you have to praise us because we need it for our egos more what do you want to hear. And I got some really good feedback on that. If you guys have stuff that you want to hear or a style of podcast that really stands out to you, let us know, send us an email. We do insist that we want to create content that's useful for you and helpful. And again keep guessing those movie titles that should be fun. The Founder is a great movie as well highly recommended for anyone that loves entrepreneurship.

Joe: And we actually respond to emails. Its [email protected] Mark and I get those personally. We also have our own personal email addresses which are really complicated [email protected] or [email protected] and Mark as a K, not a C.

Mark: I spell it the right way.

Joe: You do spell it the right way, sorry everybody else. Alright, let's get to this Kevin Sanderson, Maximizing Ecommerce, how to get your brand safely and productively in other Amazon markets.

Joe: Hey folks Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and today we've got Kevin Sanderson from Maximizing Ecommerce on the podcast. Kevin, how are you today?

Kevin: I'm doing excellent. Thanks for having me.

Joe: Where in the world are you?

Kevin: I am in south-ish Florida, about 35 minutes north of West Palm Beach.

Joe: Alright so we're recording at the end of July so you're definitely inside the house as always, right?

Kevin: Oh yes, it's nice and humid.

Joe: So as I said in the pre-call here that we don't do fancy intros so why don't you tell the audience a little bit about yourself and what your background is.

Kevin: Sure. So I've been an e-commerce seller for about 4 years. I remember when I got into the whole thing I just happened to be looking at my phone podcasts and this podcast called the Amazing Seller podcast came up. I was like this sounds interesting so I listened to it. I was like this sounds like something I want to go towards and I went out to Walgreens and they were closing out the summer specials of like whatever they're going to close out to make room for back to school and I bought a bunch of those blue cooler thingy's you'd use in your cooler to keep your cans cooled in the freezer.

Joe: Okay.

Kevin: And I remember sending some of them off to Amazon with a few other things. And I got an e-mail that my stock had been checked in and I was playing with the app like most people do once you start doing this for a while. It keeps saying this 0 sales, 0 dollars, all this and then all of a sudden I refresh it and there's a 1. I was like hey someone bought it. It was like the day it got checked in. I was prepared like mentally that it might take weeks or whatever but this just like rush of adrenaline came over me. And I went running into the living room and my wife and was like you have to see this and I almost like threw the phone at her. I was so excited. But at first, she thought it was insane just kind of like where is my husband who is this person but then she realized I was just excited about it and then she kind of got it. And so from then on, I've been hooked on the whole e-commerce game.

Joe: So it's that easy just go to Walmart, Walgreens, buy some stocked out items and put it on Amazon and you're in business. Everybody succeeds that way, right?

Kevin: Yes I came to learn there's more steps in the process for that. It was like one of the things I learned very early on in my resale arbitrage career which is short-lived was that I didn't like having to keep finding stuff and bending it in. So at least what it did was it clicked the switch in my head that like okay this is possible. It's not just I'm hearing someone talking about it. I actually saw like the 0 go to a 1 and it became real to me. Like okay now let's go after building my own brand. And so the fall was coming up and at the time I was a high school football official and I decided to take a year's worth of earnings and put that off to the side to go towards my 1st product. And so from let's say February of the following year which would have been 2016 I put up my own branded products and then I kept reinvesting into it. And then back in December of 2018, I left my job and it was like I'm going to do all this full time. And I now have about 80 products that I sell. 80 different SKUs as well as…I sell mostly on Amazon but still try to diversify as much as possible. One of the things that's been very successful for me is selling internationally; so I sell in Canada, the 5 European marketplaces, Japan, and I'm about to launch in Australia and Mexico.

Joe: Okay and that's what we're going to dig into today folks is how to expand beyond Amazon.com into these other marketplaces. You know I have multiple valuation calls a week talking to people that are looking to exit someday and just yesterday I talked to somebody that we have…she's a friend of Scott Voelker from The Amazing Seller who you're friends with as well. And she tried to expand to Europe and found that it was just too complex and complicated. So it's funny one of the growth areas that savvy; not savvy, that's the wrong word because this person is actually very savvy. One of the growth areas that people with a kind of international experience see is international. They'll look at an Amazon business it's US only and they can see where it may plug into one of the European markets or all of them. Whereas others they try it and they fail because it's just at a level of detail that is not good for them and their business and they stick to one; focus on the US. You set up a business for that where you're helping people expand beyond the US. So talk to me about A. which country because I have a couple in mind I want to see which countries are the best or if it's not that simple that different products are better for different countries.

Kevin: Well there's a little bit of different products are the best for different countries. But one simple thing people can do is if their product is selling in the US and they just look up the keyword of how someone might find their product, so if they are selling garlic presses as our friend Scott would use or fishing lures they could look up garlic presses or fishing lures on Amazon.ca or Amazon.co.uk which are the Canadian and UK versions of Amazon and just go to Jungle scout and Jungle Scout will give you an idea. Now don't get caught up in the numbers but what I would say is if you are making sales in the US and similar products to yours are making some sales internationally in those international marketplaces it's at least worth evaluating. You should at least try. Now to your point, there are some hoops you have to jump through. One of the things I recommend to people if you're going to start off with go into Canada because logistically I personally find it easier. They have what's called GST, HST which is their goods and services tax, harmonized sales tax, it's all kind of the same thing but for the most part most people are just going to register with the federal government there and it works very similar to how sales tax work in the US except it's simpler for most people. And in most cases, they're going to have to file for that sales tax once per year.

Joe: So do you do that just for the exercise of learning how to go international because it's easy because it is Canada, are you going to get your bang for your buck there, right? The population is 10% of the US so you can expect 10% of your US revenue in terms of Amazon. How do you; is it really worth it? And I think I know the answer. I think I know what you're going to say but I want to hear you say it. Is it really worth it in terms of dollars or is it a combination of dollars and revenue and the exercise of going international and getting comfortable with it?

Kevin: I would say all of the above. So the way I look at it is you have a net and as widen that net in the sea of Amazon you're going to catch more fish. And some of those fish are exclusive to; and by fish I mean customers, some of those are exclusive to Canada or they're exclusive to the UK. And as you catch more of those fish you're going to get more sales. So the way I like to look at it is if you said I'm just going to go into all the international marketplaces if you try to do it all at once it's going to be too much. Canada is relatively simple. I think it's a good place to get your feet. So what I did was I went to Canada and then I went to the UK that which is their sales tax is a little more complex and there's more kind of like landmines you could go hit on that you don't want to. So it's best to start off with Canada going to the UK. And then you can go into other parts of Europe and use UK as a base of operations. And the nice thing is if you go into the other marketplaces in Europe you'll most likely have to translate your listings but at least if you're starting off in the UK and Canada you're talking about 2 English speaking countries. So that also lowers some of the barriers.

Joe: Okay, so you're saying a little bit of everything going into Canada so I think it's a great idea that people start there. And if all you do; if you're doing $100,000 in discretionary earnings or profit and you expand to Canada and all it does is add $10,000 it's not hard. Kevin will talk about a little bit in terms of how to do it and can help people do it but that additional $10,000 in discretionary earnings if your business is worth a 3 time multiple you just added $30,000 a month to the overall value of your business if you decide to exit someday. But I like that baby-stepping it doing one country at a time starting with Canada and then another English speaking country being the UK. As far as VAT it is complicated. We've done podcasts on it with Avask accounting; the folks over there.

Kevin: That's what I use.

Joe: Great. Folks use them as well. I know Melanie they refer people back and forth to us. Anytime we've got someone buying a brand that's selling in the UK we always connect people with them because they're good. And for folks, that's AvaskAccounting.co.uk A-V-A-S-K. In terms of the next country so you're going to go Canada then you're going to go UK where do you go next?

Kevin: I would say most likely Germany. Germany outside of the UK is going to have some of the best sales in Europe. Now you're starting to get into a different language but there's translation services out there. Amazon has translation services but there are some asterisks that you might not actually be eligible for kind of strange.

Joe: I don't think the automated translation services work all that well and here's why. I was just in France and Switzerland and used Google Translate. It kind of worked. I'm literally driving down the highway from I think at the airport to Paris and I'm in the car with an Uber driver and he's got Google Translate up on his phone. I've got it up on mine. I say something and it spits it out in French. We're having this weird conversation but it didn't quite fully translate it properly. So I couldn't imagine using a translation service, an automated translation service like that. What kind of experience do you have with that if you're going to translate something to German? Do you hire individual people that are native speakers or do you use a translation service?

Kevin: So I've tried all kinds of different things. I've had Amazon help me with translations and theirs is essentially machine in most cases.

Joe: I got it.

Kevin: The ones I've seen it's machine translated and then a person checks it. Now the issue is who's checking the checker? So if you're English speaking and you're trying to check whether or not German is correct it's got to be a regular translator. I found a German translator that I've had good luck with and I had someone else check it. So if you find one let's say on Upwork or Fiverr or something and you have someone translate something for you, see if you can hire someone else to critique it. Or if you know someone who speaks German or Spanish or whatever language you want to translate have someone else verify it for you and then you know okay now I've got someone good. I've got; actually oddly enough in the office building, I work out of there's a translation company down the hall that actually they've worked with American Translator Association translators. They have contracts with all the court systems and they've done stuff for GE and Disney and a bunch of other companies. So I've found them to be pretty reputable too. But if you're not 100% sure always have someone else check it. Even if you're hiring let's say on Fiverr and you give like a paragraph of stuff, you can hire 3 or 4 people and have them check against each other. And whoever's getting the best load out of everyone else is probably the one to go with.

Joe: Awesome. I think that's a great idea. There's been times I've looked at Amazon listings and I could tell it's been written by somebody that does not speak English as their native tongue and it's obvious and I lose confidence and I don't necessarily want to buy that product. And I imagine it's the same somebody is in Germany thinking it. As far as the countries go, I know that one product is not going to be perfect for all countries but from a brokering standpoint and what I've seen over the last several years is that Germany stands out amongst all of the European countries as the one that seems to bring people that are exiting that have the most sizable business, sizable revenue. Why do you think that is? Is there something about the German marketplace that makes it stronger and larger than the other marketplaces? Is it population? Is it because of the affluent nature of the individuals in that country or is it just pure happenstance?

Kevin: I think it's a combination of several different things. So I think as; to take a step back as you go outside of the US and you have more hoops to jump through fewer people want to take those hoops. And then as you start getting into other marketplaces that aren't English now that's another hoop that you have to jump through of getting it translated. So fewer and fewer sellers I think are willing to do that from what I found and so you have less competition. So then combine with I think the population size and the people in Germany; I still do better in the UK than I do in Germany. It could just be my product but I've heard people say the opposite. So it just depends and you never know until you test it.

Joe: Okay, Alright so 1st step go to Canada, give it a shot, 2nd UK, and then 3rd another country; Germany. What services are out there? How do you expand? What steps do you recommend someone take in order to go through this process of expanding? And like how much time would you give it? We've talked about 3 countries here so far, what kind of timeframe would you give that in terms of checking those off and moving and expanding into these countries?

Kevin: Well if you're doing it alone what you would do is you would 1st register with whatever governmental agency you need to register with. So if it's Canada you go to the Canadian Revenue Agency and register for what's called non-resident importer status and also a GST, HST number. It's all basically the same number, it's just the programs that you're under.

Joe: Can all that be done through your Amazon accounts when you want to expand to different countries? Because they're always asking you to expand to different countries, are they offering those services or connections?

Kevin: So Amazon will often times help you. Here's my take on Amazon. If they're calling you, answer the phone. It's the way I look at it. See what they have to say. Now I don't want to disparage Amazon but what I've come to find is the people at Amazon they're always very well-intentioned but they're siloed. So no one fully understands the whole journey as a seller that you're going to go through like another seller. So I'm happy to help walk people through that. If people have other friends that are doing it check with your friends and get some advice as well. Just because there are a lot of pieces that even some services like let's say you know I know that there's freight forwarders that will help you get registered in Canada or another country but they may be not getting you into all the programs that you really should be in because they're looking at it from their standpoint of like okay to get stuff across the border you need this but maybe you also need something else that they didn't register you for because that's not necessarily their focus. And then Amazon, their focus is really in my experience the folks who are calling you saying hey sign up in wherever country they're just trying to get you into that country and then from there it's okay go for it.

Joe: Okay. First, do the research on that country and make sure that your products are selling or something similar is selling and you've got buyers there. Okay, and how are you dealing with the taxes and registrations? Can you cover that a little bit? We had Avask on the podcast talking about that. Can you talk briefly about the differences on how taxes work on products in the US versus over in Europe?

Kevin: Okay. Well, I think the simplest way to look at it is you have 2 buckets of taxes. You have sales tax and you have income tax. So income tax you're still most likely as long as you're using your US-based entity you're going to still owe Uncle Sam assuming someone's from the US, but you're still going to owe Uncle Sam for income taxes or whatever country you live in. So then in that country, there's going to be some sort of tax on the sale; so whether it's a GST, and the VAT; whatever.

Joe: What does GST stand for?

Kevin: Oh sorry goods and services tax which is the sales tax of Canada. So the nice thing about Canada is in most cases and a disclaimer here is I'm not a tax preparer so please make sure that you check with an appropriate tax professional about your own situation. But what I found is for most people and in talking to people that do this in the tax world is that you're most likely going to in Canada register for the goods and services tax and the harmonized sales tax. It's all just the same thing. Basically, federal tax and you file once per year. It gets added onto the sale just like here in the US. So if they live in a province where let's just say it's 8% and it's $20 then now 1.60 is added on and then you'll remit and file and then you actually in Canada have a few ways that you can save money on what you're giving to the government because if you pay GST at the border or some other way that you're paying you can get credits back. And then it works kind of the same way with credits back in Europe. Now Europe is where it starts getting a little bit more complicated. So the simplest way to look at Europe is where is the inventory getting imported into and where is it being housed. So if it comes across a border you have the requirement to file for VAT or to register and file for VAT in that country. If it's being housed in that country you're required to register and file for that country. So I think the simplest way to do it in Europe is to go into the UK and then keep your inventory in just the UK and they'll allow you to do what's called the European fulfillment network and have your products shipped to the other 4 countries from the UK. Now a lot of times what some people might steer you towards is what's called the pan-European program. It's a little bit of savings but I don't think it's really worth it because you save about a Euro per fulfillment fee and so you think oh wow that's going to add up over time. So the going rate is probably about 7,200 euros per year to be tax compliant, to have somebody do all the tax filings for you and then you end up with like Amazon will put some of your stock in Poland and the Czech Republic those aren't even countries where they have market places but they just store them there. So again once it's stored in a country now you have a VAT requirement and you might have to file; they're filing monthly for you and you have to pay. So you might have to pay the equivalent of like $10or $8 some months to the Polish government and it's just; it's almost like a little nap on your side and it's just like why am I having to do this.

Joe: Right.

Kevin: So it's expensive and what I came to learn is well I would say the best thing for most people is in Europe you want to sign up for what's called the flat rate scheme. Now when we think of taxes and scheme we think about handcuffs and going to jail. But in Europe scheme just means calculation method. So in most cases, someone who's listening to this is most likely going to be an online retailer and basically, the way it works is if let's say they sell a product in let's say the UK for 12 pounds. The price is actually 10 pounds and 2 pounds of VAT is included in that because the thing that's different about Europe is the price includes the VAT. So just to walk through that math there so you would owe 2 pounds for that sale to the government minus whatever you paid in at the border and whatever other VAT credits you had. Now if you're on the flat rate scheme you don't have to keep all your receipts for everything else. You just file 7½ % so that; just to make the math simple there using that 12 pound product you really just, it's 10 pounds is what you're selling it for so you would owe 7.5% of that which would be 75 pence which is like their pennies over there instead of having to figure out all that other nonsense of like credits and all that. What I found and I could be completely wrong on this is my accountants, they told me, there's not a flat rate scheme currently in the other countries. So if their VAT is 22 or 23% you owe that full 22, 23% as opposed to; because basically, the way it works is instead of like in the US tax is based on, sales tax is based on where the customer lives, in Europe it's where is it being dispatched from; so where they're shipping it from. So if everything is being shipped from the UK you pay the equivalent VAT to the UK.

Joe: So that's a pretty substantial saving. You're saving if you're doing penny you're saving a dollar or a euro but the percentages that you're talking about could be pretty substantial in terms of saving if you're shipping off from the UK.

Kevin: Yes.

Joe: Plus it sounds like your life's going to be a little simpler too.

Kevin: Yes.

Joe: And I think that's why a lot of people don't expand or expand to the UK and then pull back because it is a little complicated if you do too much too fast. So I like your simple approach here in terms of the flat rate scheme and sticking to the UK. What are you finding in terms of customer service and things of this nature? How do you handle that aspect of it when you're dealing with the European market place if you're in an English speaking native?

Kevin: A great question, so there are services out there that will do customer service for you. I've had translators make templates for me because there's a variety of issues that may come up if you've been doing this a while you kind of know what questions people are going to ask you. But also you can do and this is not necessarily something you have to worry too much about because at the end of the day Amazon requires that there's customer service for that customer in the native language. If they're fulfilling it they look at it pretty much as they're handling the customer service. So you will get some emails from time to time that you have to respond to within 24 hours just like you do in the US. And so I sometimes will take the message put it in Google Translate see what it is in English and then I flip it around. So if I'm going back from English to let's say Italian, I then write my response copy and paste the Italian or whatever language I'm using, send it to the customer and I've not really had anyone write back and say I can't believe you just said that to me.

Joe: Alright, so it does work in many cases. I did like it. It was an in-depth long conversation about soccer and kids and family with an Uber driver in France where it doesn't work. But I'm sure that in customer service it does work fairly well.

Kevin: Yeah like my product didn't arrive, okay we'll send you a new one, usually that that type of thing works pretty well and you can figure out and they can figure out what you mean.

Joe: Pretty simple. So, Kevin, you've gone from living in the corporate world to being an entrepreneur. Now you've got 80 different SKUs and you're also; you've got the Maximizing Ecommerce podcast, you are helping other people expand internationally as well. Are you doing that through Maximizing Ecommerce? How does anybody listening that maybe just bought a business and wants to expand internationally is it a service that you offer to help people go beyond the US?

Kevin: Yes. So what they could do is if they wanted to go beyond the US actually for your listeners I'd be willing to do a free 30-minute strategy session; no obligation. They could just go to MaximizingEcommerce.com/quiet and it will take them to a page where they can schedule something with me. Just looking for people of course that have an existing business, if they're looking to get started I'll give them a free checklist on how to get their 1st product kind of like how I did.

Joe: We'll put that in the show notes as well. Okay.

Kevin: Yes and then also if they wanted to hear more live you and I will be hanging out together in September in Fort Worth at Brand Accelerator Live and I will be speaking about selling internationally and then Quiet Light will be there as a sponsor. And then you, I will plug you as well. You will be on stage speaking about how to maximize your sale if you're looking to sell your business one day.

Joe: Yeah for folks listening that don't know some of the names we've talked about, Scott Voelker is an entrepreneur, an influencer, a speaker, a motivator, he's got the podcast the Amazing Seller. Scott's local to me sort of in South Carolina. He's got a place up here North Carolina. And Kevin's working with him on Brand Accelerator Live which is Scott's 1st big event. He's bringing in the best people in the marketplace; Greg Mercer from Jungle Scout, Mike Jackness from eComCrew and a whole lot of other folks. And I'm sort of in a very, very low tier of those folks. Greg and Mike and the other folks like that are very, very well known.

Kevin: We're really excited that you're going to be there.

Joe: Well thank you. But it's a place where I've heard in terms of the Amazing Seller podcast and what you're doing with Scott it's a place where I've talked to so many people who get such value to grow; and this is the thing, grow their Amazon business but take it beyond Amazon as well and learn about how to market off of Amazon and Shopify and e-mail marketing and Facebook or things of that nature and in the affiliate world and blog world and all that stuff. So I think Scott's done an amazing job with that. I love that you're working with him on this 1st and then we're excited to be there. Anybody that hasn't looked it up yet it's Brand Accelerator Live, is that right?

Kevin: Yeah Brand Accelerator Live. They can go to BrandAcceleratorLive.com and if someone is listening to this and is saying well I've never been to a live event before whether it's Brand Accelerator Live or something else if they're listening to this in the future go to something. You never know what's going to come out of it.

Joe: I'm going to interrupt and say yes that's absolutely true. You know when I 1st started doing what I do here in Quiet Light I had to go to an event and I think the 1st one I went to was in New Orleans. I can't even remember it but it was a big event and I hated it. Because I didn't like; I'm a bit of an introvert. Doing this right now, talking, podcasts, it's great. It's easy. I'm a bit of an introvert but I was at an event I forget exactly where it was and I heard the name Mike Jackness and I said to myself I'm going to find Mike. And I went to be pre-party and I saw Mike sitting there on a couch. I sat down beside and said hello and now Mike and I are really good friends. I sold his business. We've done podcasts together. We've got a lot of relationships in terms of people we know together. And I think he's made an impact on my life and my business and I've hopefully made the same on his. And when you see people; you go to an event like this and you see people standing around in a circle talking to each other and you don't know who they are, your instant thought is oh they all know each other I don't want to step in there that's really awkward. The reality is that they don't know each other. They're just getting to know each other. And I've been in a situation where literally I'm standing around like that somebody walks up and just sort of shoulders their way and starts to nod their head up and down and says hello and we had all just met each other and he came in and met us as well. So it's a hard thing to do but I think in this e-commerce world, listening to podcasts like this is invaluable but the most important thing you can do is get out there and meet people face to face and shake their hand. And then you can connect with them directly about what they're doing in their business and what you're trying to do with yours; and in this case with you taking Amazon businesses beyond the US and into the other marketplaces in a strategic process and how to do that so that you're going to have a higher success rate. So anybody listening get out there and go to a Mastermind event, whatever it might be, Brand Accelerator Live is not going to be a large one; it's down in Fort Worth in September; what are the dates on it?

Kevin: September 18th through 20th and then we also have a Mastermind for high-level sellers on the 21st and we still have a couple of slots available for those mastermind folks. But yeah I definitely recommend that you go to something. So to your point like sometimes you will have that feeling like oh gosh it's going to be hard connecting with people, I remember the 1st e-commerce event I went to and I walked into the opening reception and I go to the bar and kind of have that feeling like okay there's safety at the bar, the bartender is giving me the drink.

Joe: Unless you're in Mexico or the Dominican Republic but yeah, okay.

Kevin: Right exactly. So I turned around and I'm like okay not to go or I do have to like talk to someone. So there was this woman standing there and it was like hi I'm Kevin and then we just started talking and you know I still keep in contact with her to this day. And I started talking to some other people. And so just a random story here is that at this live event I got to know Scott Voelker and met him in another live event because there's that power in connection where you're meeting people live as opposed to even on the phone or messaging and Facebook groups or whatever case is and he was talking about how you wanted to do more to help people in the intermediate to advanced stage. And I like to think of the world as kind of like a puzzle with pieces that all have to come together that's why I do this international thing and then things to work in hotels and conventions. So I told them I think you should do a live event and I can help you with it because I had that experience. And I was thinking like he's going to say oh no [inaudible[00:37:19.2] whatever thank you graciously because he's a nice guy. But he actually said yes tell me more how would we do this. And so this has become an opportunity that's opened up doors for me because I talked to Scott. And I know all kinds of people, maybe it's not Scott Voelker that they're connected with someone who opened up some door connected them to a supplier, they found out some like I never knew about that service or that whatever and it opened up their mind to something else because they were having a conversation over drinks, breaking bread, or just talking or someone in between sessions at a live event because e-commerce sellers for the most part especially the ones that are doing it full time if they're at their house or whatever and they're just in front of a keyboard all day they want to connect with other people.

Joe: Yeah.

Kevin: Or if they're doing it as a; they have a full time job they are like I don't know anyone else that does this and so all of a sudden he's like surrounded by people that all do the same thing and most e-commerce sellers are not surrounded all day by other e-commerce sellers so it's like a treat being in the same room.

Joe: And you'll be amazed when you connect with folks like that how you figure out after a time that there's a half a dozen people in my surrounding area and then you can have a mini sort of mastermind group where you just get together for drinks once a month or something like that. So I think really important number one thank you for your time and helping people figure out how to expand beyond Amazon.com because it is going to bring more value for their bank account and an eventual sale as well. It's going to bring more value. But for those folks that haven't done it get to a live event, meet people face to face, it will make a difference in your business and in your life in my opinion and experience. It's hard to do. I tell you it is hard to do. It's what I do now that I've got this drink in my hand? You turn around and you say hello to someone and just take your hand out.

Kevin: Exactly.

Joe: And you end up being amazed with value you didn't get in that situation. Again MaximizingEcommerce.com, BrandAcceleratorLive.com, Kevin you're a good man. I appreciate your time and I look forward to seeing you in September.

Kevin: I'm excited for it. Thanks for having me.

Links and Resources:

Kevin's Website

Kevin's Podcast

Listener Promo from Kevin

Brand Accelerator Live 2019

When it comes to buying and selling a business, one of the first questions we typically get is how long it takes to complete the deal. These businesses are complex and looking beyond the multiple to see the potential value and return opportunities for return is key. Today's guest experienced a longer deal closing than expected but he is being rewarded for his patience. Some mistakes take longer to clean up than others but this is the story of how much the seller wanted to sell to this particular buyer despite the snags in the process.

A born entrepreneur right out of high school, Karl spent over 10 years building a handyman business on his own. Right around the time he heard about Amazon and a local kid making a million dollars on the platform, Karl started to dabble and found his way in. After a few false starts, Karl became experienced in the Amazon marketplace. Today he walks us through his business buying process and his plans for doubling discretionary earnings in a very short time.

Episode Highlights:

• The background on the business Karl purchased and how he knew it was the right fit for him.
• What happened with the SBA loan process and how that affected the deal.
• How Karl maintained the rapport with the buyer throughout the process.
• Why a price increase occurred during the process.
• The importance of keeping on top of the lender throughout.
• Karl's plan for doubling his margins and how he's implementing it.
• The importance of an in-face meeting with your Chinese manufacturer and how often to have one.
• Karl's advice to anyone planning a purchase.

Transcription:

Mark: Alright guys welcome to another episode of the Quiet Light Podcast. Real quick before I talk to Joe; if anybody out there hasn't left a rating on the Quiet Light Podcast, do me a favor go to iTunes or Stitcher or wherever you listen to us, leave a rating, we certainly appreciate it. Makes us feel good. Makes us feel like we're doing a decent job at this whole podcasting thing. So thanks in advance to everybody that has done that. Okay, so Joe, when we're talking to a potential seller or even talking to a potential buyer one of the topics that come up often, is how long does it take to complete the deal, right? And we have people wondering am I going to get this done in three months and what have you. The fact is these businesses are complex. On the upfront summaries what we see usually is pretty plain and simple. You see revenue, you see earnings, you see a multiple, and you kind of think well this should be nice and capsid and quick. And sometimes it is. But other times you have to look a little bit deeper. And you and I have talked about this before, right? For buyers to make sure you're looking beyond the multiple and the multiple is one point of data. And for sellers and buyers alike to also have patience with the process and understand that you're selling a complex asset. I know you had Carl on the podcast who is a recent buyer of one of our properties. And it was one of those situations where the deal took longer than expected and the numbers weren't as necessarily straightforward as maybe you would think when you just look at this. But the net result for him as a buyer and for a client were phenomenal by being patient and looking a little bit deeper.

Joe: Yes, no question. This particular deal took I want to say from letter of intent to closing seven and a half months which is probably the longest I've ever had. There's really specific reasons for it. And Carl is partly to blame for it because he made a mistake on his application to the SBA lender. So we had to do the process essentially twice. The seller Kevin hung in there with Carl because Carl was a nice guy. It made a difference. And at one point when the deal fell apart, we had to go back. Well, my advice was to go back out to market for an awful lot more money because the business has grown a lot; probably worth $400,000 more. Carl and Kevin got along so well that Kevin said no I don't want to do that to Carl. Let's just bump the price thousand $160,000; crazy. Most buyers would walk away. They'd be like no. Yesterday it was this price today you want $160,000 more. Carl didn't do that and he's being rewarded greatly for it right away instant equity, in my opinion, a quarter of a million dollars in the business. And then some things that he's doing on his end immediately once that first container load comes in doubling the discretionary earnings because of a focus on reducing COGS. It's just fantastic what he's doing. And it's a great lesson for buyers and sellers to be patient, to be focused on helping each other, and not looking just at that multiple.

Mark: You know I love this sort of story because I get it right from a buying standpoint you're looking at a lot of deal flow you need to evaluate businesses quickly. So the temptation is often to look at just the high-level metrics and to eliminate something based on that. But so many of these businesses and if I could just say you know maybe even a plug for Quiet Light you know when we bring a business to the market we usually believe in that company pretty strongly as being a good value play for buyers. And so taking the time to kind of dissect it and to understand more than the top-level metrics and what's going on underneath and look for those opportunities for that immediate win and again looking beyond that multiple. So this is a really good story of somebody doing just that and seeing a really quick reward on that. I want to listen to this. I want to hear all the dynamics. This is one of those more complex deals and I think a really good example of what happens when the deal isn't straightforward but still works out in the end.

Joe: Yeah. Hey, one other thing. I had a really strange interruption everybody in the audience I want you to get 10, 15 minutes in. Chris, our producer asked me about a particular person. I'm trying to find out who this is. If you could just get that far listen in and shoot me a note. I want to try to track that person down. Thanks, Ben. I appreciate it. Let's go to the podcast.

Joe: Hey folks Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage. Today I've got Carl Sally on the podcast. Carl recently bought a business from me and it was a long, long process. I think we; I'm going to throw a quick data to Carl, we originally went under LOI in October of 2018 and didn't close until June of '19 and we want to share the story of why with the buyers and sellers and talk about what happened during that period, how the business grew out, how we fell out of LOI, got back under LOI and eventually closed to the point where both you and the seller are thrilled and some of the things that you're going to do with the business going forward. Before we go over all of that why don't you give a little bit of background on yourself so the folks listening know who you are Carl?

Carl: Sure yeah so right out of high school I basically started out a little handyman company; very artificial, just a smelting yard and painting walls for a long time, offered a few contractors to work for free until I got enough knowledge to do plumbing and electrical and basically do the house from the ground up. I did that for 10 years. So in my late 20's that's when I learned about Amazon and I always had podcasts and things trickling in my ears, self-help books and what have you while I was tiling bathrooms or roofing on a house. And I heard the 4-hour workweek and kind of the same time I heard about The 4 Hour Work Week I heard about this kid, he was making a million dollars a year on Amazon. And so I said man if she can do it there's gotta be a way I can figure this thing out. And I did some free work for him at his warehouse. And he taught me a lot and just basically pointed me in the direction of YouTube. I learned everything I could. I had a few failures in my first project; my first product on Amazon. I think me and my partner lost maybe 10 grand on our first product and that was all credit card money. And then the very next product that we launched we did it the right way and we're able to actually start a business on that foundation and eventually grew that to five, six million dollars in gross sales.

Joe: That's amazing. Now let's just come back to this kid that was making a million bucks on Amazon. You didn't hear it online. It was somebody local in the area that you live in?

Carl: Yeah, it was just some random kid from the community.

Joe: And you tracked him down and said look man I'm here for free I just want to learn?

Carl: I was great at electrical work and I knew he needed some electrical workers for his house so I just thought he could do a little trade with me.

Joe: Fantastic.

Carl: He was thrilled. It was nothing to him.

Joe: That's beautiful. That's the way to do it. I remember hearing a story a long time ago doing the same; self-help books and everything like that where somebody was trying to develop a project, a real estate development but he didn't have enough money. So he brought in people with all of the expertise and gave him a piece of the pie and all that sort of stuff. Where there's a will there's a way. I mean that's exactly what you've shown here. And now you've bought a business that's quite sizable and you're running a business that's even much larger. So cool, good for you. That's a great story. Let's give a little background. Again just a review. We just closed the transaction. Today we're recording on June 26. I think we closed on the 12th of June but we went under LOI a long time ago. You and I've been talking for I guess it would be eight or nine months now. This is the first time we're on video folks as well. You might want to jump over to the YouTube channel and see what's going on there. The first time we've seen each other. We'd like to do a lot more video in the initial buyer-seller conference calls now. But this is our first shot together. So that's great.

Carl: Yeah.

Joe: But it's been a long time. We initially; a little bit of background on this particular listing folks; it's a listing that I had listed for sale I think it was in late '17. And the growth rate on it had slowed. The owner of the business had some competition and he reduced prices. And his sales went up, his total volume of orders went up I guess I should say. His revenue did as well but the margin shrunk because he cut costs. So growth had slowed to 1 or 2% and it concerned buyers. So for owners out there, sellers think about that aspect of it. It concerned buyers. Growth has slowed. He slashed prices. He had some great growth opportunities in the package but just hadn't implemented them out of fear. He didn't want to make a whole lot of changes before listing the business for sale which generally is right. But in this case, the combination of that slowed growth because of cutting prices to fend off competition turned buyers away. And we didn't sell the business. We had it listed for three or four months. And Kevin decided look I'm going to go ahead and implement these growth opportunities and come back at this in the future. And he did. He came back. He implemented those growth opportunities. He fixed what was broken and came back and the growth was phenomenal. Nine months later, 10 months later we saw a 25% year over year improvement in total revenues and discretionary earnings. We listed the business for sale. And probably within a couple of weeks, I think Carl you got the winning bid. We put that under offer at full price. You knew what you could do with the business which is fascinating because this one is it's in the home sector, right? You can do installation yourself and things of that nature. I didn't know there was a connection before with your background, how you grew up in that first 10-year high school. That's awesome. So it makes more sense now. But why don't we talk about it? This is we went under LOI and it was going to be an SBA loan and it fell apart. We were almost there and then we lost it because we didn't get a commitment letter. Can you talk a little bit about your process in terms of first maybe why you liked this one and then what the SBA loan process was like for you and then we'll get into how it fell apart?

Carl: Yeah sure. So the business itself I really liked because well one the numbers were right, it had a very; like you said a strong year over year growth which I found attractive. All the products; it had a small amount of products for the amount of revenue so that that ratio of low amount of SKUs to high revenue was very attractive to me. So it's less management and I could handle it myself. Also, the review ratings were really high. It had a great historical keyword ranking for most of the SKUs and all of those things kind of checked all the boxes for me. And then next I wanted to talk seller because a lot of it has to do with the seller as well. I knew this would be a long process with an SBA loan and I wanted to work with somebody who was honest. So as soon as I got on the phone with them I realized this guy's a straight shooter. And I've dealt over the last 15 years with a lot of shady characters and I just don't like doing business with those kind of people anymore. So it checked every box at that point and I said okay I should definitely; I don't want to screw around. I want to give him a good offer. I felt that it was a good price for the amount of growth that it had left to do. So I made that full offer. And then we started to kind of get into my first SBA loan experience.

Joe: I definitely want to talk about that. Let me talk about price. We're not going to give away the price here folks but we went with an aggressive multiple on the low side. I'd say we were at about 2.8 times even with that growth. But it's because we have listed it prior and it didn't sell. So we were able to list it for more than we did the prior time but at a multiple, that was relatively conservative at 2.8 times. And it's important to note that because of what we're going to get to at the end. So okay, back to the SBA process.

Carl: Sure. So we started the process and of course, I think I approached two different lenders and they had said each one of them had said oh yeah we'll get this done for you in 30 to 60 days. And I'm like oh man that is faster than I thought. That's great. Let's do it.

Joe: Yeah.

Carl: So we got it going. And I think about three or four months into the process that's when we realized that I had actually screwed something up in the paperwork. There was a personal financial statement for those who haven't done SBA loans yet, you have to declare everything that you have as an asset on this paper. And so in good faith, I didn't want to commit a federal fraud. So I declared everything that I thought was an asset including two properties that I have been receiving rental on for the last three years not thinking anything out. And then they went to go do a title search on them and realized that my name's not on the deed. It's not on the loan. And to me, those have always been performing assets. But in reality, since I didn't technically own them and I just had kind of handshake agreements; paper agreements on the side with the other partners in those properties, they didn't check out. And it's almost like I was in danger of performing fraud even though I came from a place of honesty. I put assets there that I technically don't really own. So anyway the bank at that point couldn't lend to me. I was untouchable. And we had just wasted four months of time. And of course, the seller was furious. I was furious. And the lender was furious. Everybody is just mad because I screwed up. I still wanted the business. The business was growing hand over fist every month. And I realized there was no way at this point even if the seller decides to keep me on that I'm going to be able to pay the same price for it. So I reapproached Joe and the seller just to see if we can still make a deal happen. There was literally just this one little thing in the paperwork that I screwed up so I knew I had this other stack of 100 documents that I could just drop in the next lender and hopefully accelerate that process. And I think probably Joe knows better. You know better. But I think that the seller saw that I had been moving extremely quickly the entire time even though when the lender had been dragging their heels. It was probably par for the course. I see now. And so he knew that I would perform very quickly for the next lender and that there was no way that he was going to get another SBA buyer that would move faster than me. And we had also established a pretty good rapport over the over those four months. He's kind of like I am in that he likes to move fast. So I think we just kind of hit it off and he still was able to sell it to me even though we did raise the price which I thought was an extremely fair raise. I thought he really took care of me on that which I'm grateful for. We were able to make the deal.

Joe: Yeah let me pipe in there because I have to; people are like what you raised the pricing? You kept going and you bought the business? First I want to touch on a couple of things there. When an SBA lender says yeah we can do this in 30, 45 days; definitely get that done. And you think yeah that's great, that's fast. You have to talk about from what starting point. Lenders have a different definition of closing, of starting; they're really talking about from the commitment letter; 30 to 40 days. And they're right. Sure. But we always want to talk that one language and that's from a letter of intent, right? We signed the Letter of Intent I think with the initial one was October 14. It's going to take anywhere from 60 to 90 days to close that deal. And by closing, we mean what? We clearly define that as money changing hands, asset changing hands, you taking control of the business, Kevin the seller getting funds; all of that is closing. So when anyone is ever talking to an SBA lender talk from the point of the Letter of Intent. Understand that there's going to be a time when you got to put that whole package together, submit it to them, it's going to go to underwriting, then you're going to get a commitment letter. That in itself can take 45 days. And then you're another 30 to 45 days to closing. So that's where we get that 90 days from the SBA side. It can happen quickly. We've got; I think Chuck did one in 45, 42 days something like that. But if it's a sizable deal and more towards the end of the year guess what they want to do it faster because they're trying to hit certain numbers. Yes, they could do it faster all the time right Carl?

Carl: Of course.

Joe: The other thing I just want to touch on. I'm on a podcast right now with a guy named Carl and I tried to talk my seller out of selling the business to Carl. It is pretty laughable, right?

Carl: I don't blame you.

Joe: Because when the deal fell through the first time I'm like look, Kevin, your business has exploded. It's worth a lot more now. We need to really jack the price. If we go back out based upon what's happening year to date and this is now, this was March 2019 at this point something. I gave a high number; a much bigger number, that the business is worth probably $350,000 more than we were under LOI with you. And you know what? He's like you know what Joe I really like Carl. We get along really well. I like him. All the paperwork is done. If we can just get it submitted the right way with another lender we could still fast track it. And you know what let's see if we can find a fair price that's going to work for Carl and me. So we did. We went back to you and we did jack the price. You ended up paying, and I'm not telling the list price, but you ended up paying about $160,000 more for the business.

Carl: Right.

Joe: Oddly enough the multiple still went down.

Carl: Yeah, that's how good it was doing.

Joe: Yeah. That's how good it was doing. You went from a 2.8 multiple to a 2.55 multiple. Yet you were paying $160,000 more. Now I'm talking about multiples here a little bit. Folks, one of the lessons I want you to get from this, Carl is looking at this business with an eye of what he can do with it, what he can accomplish, and how he can grow it. We're going to talk about that in a few minutes. Not the multiple. The multiple wasn't his main focus. It was wow it's doing this in discretionary earnings based upon things within the business I can correct, fix, shift and even with the same revenue, I'm going to jack up the discretionary earnings and have some instant equity. Speaking of instant equity we talked about it, I think that you have probably a quarter of a million dollars in instant equity in the business because I think it's worth at least that much more right now than what you paid for it based upon the growth. Okay, so there's my little two cents I wanted to go ahead…hold on a sec, my producer is poking his head in. What's up, Chris? This is odd. Okay, he gave me a piece of paper. He's asking me Carl have you ever heard of a guy named Andy Youderian?

Carl: I did not.

Joe: Okay Chris, no idea. Okay. Hey anybody in the audience listening, if you guys have any idea who Andy Youderian; sounds like somebody from Star Wars, have any idea who the guy is, reach out to me find him, let him know that our producer is looking for him. Alright, I'm sorry for that tangent guys. Back on track. Okay so we went out to another lender and it worked. Just touch on that in terms of how long that process was because you had to resubmit an entire package again.

Carl: Right. I mean they want; as soon as they said they wanted to work with me I dropped a document stack on them about 50 pages long; no 50 documents, some of those documents were 20 pages long.

Joe: Wow.

Carl: I mean it was just a huge stack of paper and in my mind, I'm thinking now we can get this bank down in three weeks. But of course they; when you get legal involved I realize that that's the real linchpin is the lawyers. It just takes so so long to review and get stuff back to you. They would expect to document for me in a week. I hand it to them in 24 hours. They needed it by close of business. They'd have it in five minutes. So I never ever ever want to be the person who's holding the ball. I think with SBA loans you got to just keep the ball in the lender's court over and over and over again. And sometimes it would be even though I'd get it to them so quickly I would be waiting for seven days for a response.

Joe: Yeah.

Carl: And this just; that time compounds.

Joe: You got to keep pushing.

Carl: And I would push and I was always squeaky; always squeaky with the lender.

Joe: Squeaky but nice folks. You can't put them off.

Carl: Squeaky but nice. Yeah, you don't want to put them off because I still do want to do repeat business with these people. So it's a fine line you walk. But I think in the end we really did close that super-fast. It wasn't like maybe even within that two months that they normally promise.

Joe: I think it was. It helped; we fast-tracked the package to underwriting which sometimes again takes 30 to 45 days. But because you had it we were able to get there fairly quickly. The other lender, by the way, helped out with that. He gave a lot of the package right over and helped out as well. Alright, so we did close it. Let's jump to the fun stuff so people can learn about what you're doing with this business. We closed June 12th; yeah 11th or 12th, then you and I had a conversation. And you basically told me that you're going to double the discretionary earnings. Can you talk about that a little bit and how you're doing it and what other folks should look at when they're looking at businesses instead of just looking at the top-line number in terms of the meat and bones of the business itself, what you looked at and how you're approaching it so that you know you can increase the bottom line number and the total margins?

Carl: Sure. Well, oddly enough I didn't even realize this until maybe three days before closing. But I was really excited to close finally and I put the deal in front of my partner for my existing business who does most of the logistics for us. And he said hey this product is really similar to some of the stuff we sell, why don't we run it past our existing supplier and just get a price out of them before shopping it around to other people in China. And so we did and I think the main item that the seller of the business I was purchasing was paying for; I think he was paying 16.50 for an item that this new manufacturer was willing to make for us equal quality for $8.05.

Joe: Wow.

Carl: And so I said holy crap this can't be real. So we just got the samples in yesterday and it's pretty similar. I mean probably with another dollar tweak to $9.05 it'll probably be damn near the same product. And at that point—.

Joe: How many units is that selling?

Carl: I think that's about like 20 a day, 600 a month; 6 to 900 a month. But what that did to the EBIDTA bottom line is I think it increases it by between 80 and 90%.

That's incredible.

Carl: Yeah.

Joe: We get a quarter million equity going in by—

Carl: It was a huge windfall. I mean completely unexpected honestly.

Joe: When it comes to relationships with your Chinese manufacturers, I understand your business partner from your other business spends a lot of time on that aspect of it. Do you find that it's important to get over there and meet with them face to face and spend a little time with them?

Carl: Oh absolutely; 100% yeah. To be able to press the flesh with the Chinese manufacturer is night and day difference. I mean that big of a difference; completely night and day. You're just a number overseas even if you have big order amounts. They like the green but they also like the in face meeting a lot. It's part of their culture. They call it Guanxi over there where it's business relationships; a special word for a business relationship that you develop. And the more Guanxi you can develop with your manufacturer, the more seriously they'll take you even if you have smaller order sizes, even if you're ordering less frequently, they give you the benefit of the doubt many times if you screw something up they'll pick up the slack for you. And some manufacturers will negotiate on their terms as well which is something that for most people who buy from China they know that they're very inflexible on that. But if you meet them enough and bring gifts and you offer respect and just have a good time; just go out, have some cigars and some drinks with them, the more often you do that the more a friend you are they really blur the line between friend and business over there. And the more that you can step into that gray area the more freely the favors flow and the more freely they'll give you really good terms which is even better than in my opinion getting a better price. Terms is everything because your cash flow is helped out so so hugely. So I think it's hugely underrated I think everybody should see their manufacturer.

Joe: For those that haven't traveled to China before, how complicated is it? Is it safe? Should you plan on spending three days there or five days, a couple of weeks and see multiple manufacturers? What would you recommend to people that haven't done it before?

Carl: Personally, I think at least a week is good. And I think starting their relationship with your manufacturer. Don't just go in blind. Have at least a few months of history with your manufacturer where they see that you do pay and you're a real buyer, you're not just a maybe then they'll already respect you enough to want to extend…roll out the red carpet for you. And just saying that you're going to be there for seven days. They will take care of you. They're extremely honored to have an American guest come to their homeland and care enough to see the things that they like and care enough to see their manufacturing facility that they've spent so much time developing. So yeah they'll take you on tours. They'll pay for your hotels. I mean I've never had it where at least it wasn't at least offered to pay for most of my expenses. They bought my family gifts. I mean I didn't; these were things I was uncomfortable receiving. But I felt like I needed to receive them in order to develop that relationship and not become one-sided.

Joe: I've heard that time and time again. I think one of the key things for buyers to take away from that is that if they've never been it's safe to go and people are honored to have you there.

Carl: Oh yeah. I felt very safe.

Joe: Business relations; Guanxi you call it, is that right?

Carl: Yeah, that's what they call it. Right.

Joe: So buyers that are looking at businesses one of the ways that if the seller of the business has never gotten on a plane, spend some time with the manufacturers in China. There's probably a good growth opportunity in terms of bottom-line maybe terms and do that. How often do you feel it's necessary to go over?

Carl: Maybe once a year if that, if not once every couple of years even. The first meeting is the best. If you can spend a good week there. It makes a huge difference.

Joe: You say [inaudible 00:28:42.4] every day or are they taking you beyond the manufacturing facility and recommending other things that you can see in China as a tour?

Carl: So we had two manufacturers. Actually the first time we went to we sort of split our time three days with this one three days with that one. And we saw them every day while we were there. We didn't know anything about anything. And we totally explained to them look if you have a business to take care of we can take care of ourselves we'll walk around town and just entertain ourselves with the new sights. But they were pretty adamant about wanting to be with us every day. So that's just how it shook out.

Joe: Terrific, that's fantastic. Okay, so a little bit of a tangent there folks but a great recommendation in terms of being a buyer and how to improve the bottom line numbers.

Carl: Sure.

Joe: Alright, so you're going to improve the discretionary earnings on this business that you already have a quarter-million dollars in terms of equity when you bought it by another 80 to 90%. How long is it going to take that to happen in terms of buying the product and getting it in?

Carl: Probably two months. So in two months, we'll start to see those savings in two months. We already have about three or four months of inventory on hand so it's plenty of pad to get the new inventory up and running. But that's probably what's going to happen. And then it'll take another year to log that. A year afterward to log that in as actual recorded earnings.

Joe: Right. You're thinking in terms of a resale of the business, total discretionary earnings on the trailing twelve.

Carl: Days to log in the equity; right.

Joe: The equity itself. Yeah, we have in the past when the cost of goods sold has been dramatically reduced then ordered hit FBA and sales occurred. We have been able to do an add back. And for folks that haven't already heard the podcast on the sale, I did with Mike Jackness on Colorit, Google Quiet Light Podcast Mike Jackness ColorIt or even eComcrew. Mike did a series and honestly, he's a fantastic podcaster if you haven't heard it. I think it's episode 247, 257. Just Google Quiet Light ColorIt eComcrew podcast and learn. Because you actually learn from somebody that's sold a business. And some of the trials and tribulations we went through when you've got four brands in one seller account under one LLC and you're only actually selling one of them. So sellers out there doing that please listen and learn because it's a major challenge. But we got through it. What other things Carl would you recommend to people that are buying a business when they're looking at things like you have and approaching it? You've done something I think really really impressive here; hanging in here for seven and a half months to get the deal closed. Building and maintaining a good relationship with the guy selling the business so he trusted you. We talk about the four pillars here at Quiet Light, well that's the fifth one right there. It's being a good guy, being likable, building good relationships with either your buyer or your seller. What other things do you think are critical when you're buying a business? As people are looking all the time they're looking at lots of things before they find the right fit. What would you recommend they do?

Carl: The first thing that comes to mind is anything sold at 5 million we're really looking at SBA funds. I think what I said earlier about just being forefront on pushing the ball into the lender's court; that is so important. If you're lagging on documents then it can damage the entire transaction and the relationship with the buyer. They see that you're lagging. So I mean that is underrated. I've always been a punctual person but I never realized how much that really plays in the business on different levels. I think one of the things that helped me was having built an Amazon business before so I really was comfortable with all of the key metrics and some of the red flags on the account didn't bother me at all because I knew that those specific things were common given the circumstances. So I think it really helps to either have that background or start small. I would never have jumped into this with both feet at this dollar amount with no prior experience. I think I would have rather pick something maybe 10 times less or maybe five times smaller and just gone in with an attitude of this is my intuition and I'm going to learn here. The mistakes I'm going to make, at least I'll probably break even. It's going to be cheaper than college and more lucrative. I think going into a smaller deal is still a good idea even if you can't put up big numbers to show off to your friends. It's not what it's about, right? Get that experience under your belt and then you can make really good decisions down the road. So buying small is good, starting out from scratch I think is a great experience as well. It takes time but you're better off putting in time than losing tons of money I think.

Joe: What about finding a mentor? You clearly did that. That's one of the things you mentioned. The kid in the neighborhood that was doing a million on Amazon.

Carl: Yeah. To be fair he really just pointed me in the direction of YouTube. That was his biggest recommendation. And I mean you can learn a ton just by listening to people. A lot of my mentors don't know me. I get them in books. I get them in podcasts like this one. I get them in blogs. So there's a lot of free information out there I never took a course and I feel like I've done pretty well.

Joe: Well, obviously you've done pretty well. I got to tell you just the YouTube thing I've got a 17-year-old and anything he needs to learn it's on YouTube.

Carl: Yeah.

Joe: I'm 63 so anybody my age, learn from Carl and those younger; anything you want it's on—

Carl: It's crazy. It's information at your fingertips.

Joe: At your fingertips and it's free; that's right. Alright, then this is great. We're just about out of time. I appreciate the last nine or 10 months. And I'm looking forward to working with you in the future on some other transaction as well.

Carl: Oh definitely. That is not the end.

Joe: Alright, thanks for all your time. I appreciate it, your patience and congrats on such a great business that you've got here.

Carl: Thank you, Joe. I appreciate it.

Links and Resources:

Mike Jackness Episode

A lot of buyers come to us and ask about the risk of buying an Amazon business. Likewise, when setting an Amazon business up to sell, what are some things to consider? Buying up businesses and creating a profitable portfolio is something that some very savvy buyers are going all-in on. Today we are talking about Amazon FBA with someone who has been doing just that. If Amazon is the past, present, and future of e-commerce and all the others are just playing catch where do YOU want to put your money as an online business owner?

Carlos Cashman, CEO and entrepreneur, has started over a dozen companies as well purchased, sold, and taken public many others. He is now CEO of Thrasio, an FBA business acquisition company. Thrasio has a wealth of experience purchasing businesses from all over the world. At Thrasio, the team guides the seller to a deal in record time backed by expert law, due diligence, and financial teams.

Episode Highlights:

• Carlos' take on the Amazon consolidation model.
• The importance of sku concentration, consolidation, and product stability.
• How many Amazon deals Carlos has made.
• Whether he places weight on secondary metrics such as email marketing.
• Where the efficiencies are in Thrasio's portfolio.
• Navigating a bad purchase and when to cut losses.
• Cross-collateral investing and how Thrasio sets that up.
• Why Amazon?
• Some statistics that cannot bely the retail ecosystem that is Amazon.
• If and how any business can compete, in the long term, with Amazon.
• Product creation and innovation best practices to follow.
• The importance of having representation when selling your business.

Transcription:

Joe: Mark, I have a lot of people that come to me and talk to me as either buyers and they say, Joe, what's the risk of buying an Amazon business? And I talk—5, 6 years ago everyone thought the risk was really high but today there are people that are a lot smarter than you and me and you and me combined and maybe all of our team that have raised 10, 20, 30 million dollars to buy up Amazon businesses and build a portfolio. And I understand you had Carlos from Thras on the podcast talking about just that.

Mark: Thras.io; he's very careful to approach to actually correct me on that at the beginning of the podcast and he tells me the meaning behind their name which is really cool. I'm going to save it for the podcast so people can listen to that. But yeah what I wanted to know so many buyers look at Amazon only businesses and they discount them for channel risk because they're like do you really want to be on this one platform or competition and products could be sort of ubiquitous, competition can be really tough and your subject in mercy to the whims of Amazon. And so here we have Carlos putting together a fund and buying up a lot of these Amazon Asense and the question is you're a smart guy, you've done a lot of business in the past and we've talked about how he had grown multiple businesses and sold them, so why is he going all-in on this platform and also why are people giving him money to go all-in on this platform; what's the reasoning here to say this is where the future of e-commerce is. And so we talked a lot of statistics on this. We talked a lot about what is the future of Amazon. And here's a spoiler alert Amazon's going all-in on FBA. It's one of their 3 biggest platforms, it's one of the 3 legs to their stool that they have with their aid of US being one and their sellers—their 3rd party services being one of the largest profit centers that they have. In addition, when you take a look at where do they stand in the marketplace, it's staggering. Everybody knows that they're huge. They're 49% of online e-commerce sales. When you look at this in terms of total retail sales; total retail sales make up about roughly 10% of all—e-commerce makes up about 10% of all retail sales. Amazon makes up about half of that. So what do we do here? What are we going to do? Okay, online sales is only 10% which means it's going to grow. Amazon is already half of that online marketplace. What's the future here? Well, the future is Amazon is trying to become the e-commerce internet. They're trying to become the de facto way of ordering products online and everybody else is playing catch up right now. And so they are betting and saying we get it. We know that Amazon growth is going to continue. We know it's going to continue at a rapid pace for a long time; there's lots of room to grow, and yeah there are competitors and we talked about this. We talked about; Shopify just announced recently that they're investing one billion dollars in their Shopify fulfillment network which is great news and he was ecstatic to hear that. He's like competition like this is good. But the fact is Shopify is playing catch up, Target is playing catch up, Walmart is playing catch up, and they're not there yet at all. They're more difficult to work with than Amazon. They don't have the same draw. And so it made me rethink this if we're looking at where do you want to put your money as a business owner.

Joe: That's it right there the multiples are going up on Amazon businesses tomorrow guys; that's it.

Mark: It's more sure of investment than maybe we've thought about in the past. It was; you know what? We talked to some of these guys that are doing this professionally that are on the Amazon space only; fascinating conversation. I enjoyed it thoroughly to talk to somebody who's doing this and sees things from maybe a different angle than what most buyers think about.

Joe: Well I think it's great because probably half the audience here is made up of buyers as well and they ask that question all the time; should I buy an Amazon business? And we know that I say we're going to raise the multiple on Amazon businesses, we actually don't as we always say determine the multiple. The buyers do because we do our best based upon historic numbers and then we get the feedback from the buyers. If we're wrong they let us know by driving the multiple down or driving it up in some cases. Year to date; this is end of June that we're recording this year to date I've seen the multiples on Amazon businesses at levels that I had never seen it in the past. So I think that the buyer pool is getting much more confidence in the Amazon channel. I think that that one channel risk is if you're focused on adding new Asense in growing the business worldwide on other Amazon platforms in countries the risk is diminished a little bit. Historically we've seen multichannel businesses sell for 10 to 20% more than single-channel Amazon businesses but I do think that's creeping up a little bit and catching up a little bit. So it will be really interesting to hear what Carlos has to say. He's a super nice guy. One quick aside I had Amazon businesses that I had for sale and Carlos had to call them, the guy loved him and they both happened to be traveling to Singapore at separate times. They actually got together and had coffee and dinner with their families just because they had met on a phone call. So Carlos is a super nice guy, very, very good at what he does, and obviously an expert on the Amazon site. So I'm looking forward to listening to this one myself.

Carlos: Oh that was all good stuff.

Mark: Yeah it was all the good stuff you see that's the thing, we always record the good stuff before I hit record. And I'm actually going to enter with that. Carlos, thank you for coming on the show.

Carlos: Cool. I'm glad to be here man.

Mark: Yeah so tell us who you are. I know who you are but tell everybody else who you are.

Carlos: Yeah everybody come look at LinkedIn, they usually do. But I'm a serial entrepreneur. I've started—it depends on how you count them size or whatever but you know over a dozen companies. I was thinking about this in a way because people are like wow, tell us about that. I started I think it's about 6 to 8 I got to figure out better multi-million dollar companies. I've taken company public, I sold them, I bought them, I've sold several for 9 figures, dealt with some amazing people along the way and it's always been tech-related. So software, advertising, some services related to that stuff and e-commerce stuff. So I've got a lot of miles on the road that way.

Mark: Yeah no it sounds like the profile for any of our brokers. So if this whole Thras.io thing doesn't work out for you let me know. So you're the CEO of Thras.io.

Carlos: I know we have the worst name in the world but let's just make it clear for everybody; Thras.io.

Mark: Thras.io, I'm sorry. It's good that I know that now because I've been saying Thras.io; so Thras.io, okay.

Carlos: So it's based on the review of your site, it's based on the greek word thrasos which means boldness or confidence but it was actually an Amazon warrior queen hence the kind of Amazon connection.

Mark: That's pretty cool. See I learned something. This is awesome. I love this. I love the name now.

Carlos: Josh came up with the name in just a second and I'm co-CEO and co-founder with my partner Josh Silberstein. And yeah he just came up with it and yeah I don't like to spend too much time naming companies even though I've done that professionally before so we just went with it.

Mark: So it was an Amazon goddess, is that what you said?

Carlos: It was an Amazon queen. So we actually had a whole lot of sub-companies for our Amazon warrior queen. I mean like things that do different parts of what we do in the ecosystem. It's got to stay with that theme or words.

Mark: I got to ask now I mean is Josh like some Amazon queen ruler aficionado and connoisseur?

Carlos: We're both aficionados of mythology and things like that but it just made sense getting into Amazon that we would do something like that.

Mark: I like it. I mean I like names of businesses that have secondary and deeper meanings and now I've got something if I'm really bored I'm going to go out and procrastinate by researching Amazon queens.

Carlos: There are a lot of them and their names can be very difficult to spell which is kind of a mess when we're trying to do with legal documentation and stuff but it's fun.

Mark: That's really cool. Alright, so I had a few companies that I would say is in a similar vein to what Thras.io does and that is this idea of consolidating multiple Amazon businesses under one roof. That said everybody's got a little bit of a different twist on it. So I would love to get your twist on this Amazon consolidation that you guys are doing in trying to acquire companies and anything that you're able to share as well. Like I mean how many acquisitions have you done and how long have you guys been in business so far doing this would be really interesting and if there's something that—alright I'm not going to tell everybody this then don't worry we'll just say it and only the 3 people that listen to the podcast will know.

Carlos: Alright so I hope you're calculating right—I've been listening to this for a while now. So I hope you're keeping track of these questions because I'm not taking notes. You just asked me about four questions right there so let me try to take them in any order that I kind of remember them. In terms of do, we have a particular twist on the market; now I don't think we do necessarily. I mean I heard Richard when you had him on here with 101 Commerce I mean that's—the idea is fairly simple. I think people get it. In terms of—I think what they see in this Mark is you know when you mention other people like there's someone who has built a great home goods business and now they want to expand and so looking for other home goods products to roll into that, right? We are really kind of vertical agnostics. So we're only looking on that from that point of view. We would just believe in the ecosystem overall, we believe in the fundamental transformation that Amazon has brought on the way we do commerce and particularly e-commerce, and we just see an overall appearance. We're looking for just great business. I mean look we want great products and now some people have top ranking, great ratings, and good number of reviews; all that stuff. That's really what we're looking for but as far as what it is, it could be all over the board really. Again the most important thing is that they've built a quality product. And it really comes down to the Asense; the Amazon listing itself; the product, the SKU, whatever you want to call that. So that's really what we're most focused on is we look at our business as a portfolio of those. So any business may have a handful of them and I know a lot of people in this marketplace some of the acquires in this place market space or tend to be still I mean you've probably seen a lot, you know, people looking for a single business, right? So yeah with the executive leaving some big company taking an SBA loan whatever we could talk through all that stuff later but for that person they're concerned with customs to concentration and rightfully so. It's going to be their one business wonders and they take out a big loan for it. It's actually kind of the opposite for us. So as far as our interest we are interested in the more concentrated your SKU's are the better because it's less for us to take on and manage the whole thing. And we're not concerned about the individual performance of that one because we've got hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of others. But I mean we are concerned about in terms of how it does but it's not going to sink us or make us by the performance of anyone SKU we acquired in one time. So that's kind of how we—that kind of answers how we look at the business and again we're not looking for fad products either just something clear to say. So if you got fidget spinners we're not interested in that. Those are hot for a year. My son has a dozen of them sitting all over his room and he's never going to spin them again. So we don't want things like that. And so we want stuff that is really stable in terms of its demand.

Mark: Yeah, I'm just going to put a note to everybody that's given up fidget spinners for swag, thank you for making my room, my kid's rooms just filled with stuff that's lying around because you're absolutely right and you know I will disagree with you on something here. You said that you guys really—you're not sure if you really having any expend but this idea that you guys have of looking at Amazon businesses not so much in terms of the business side of it but you're looking more at the Asense and trying to evaluate individual Asense and the strengths of those relative to everything else that's really what you're looking at. That is a unique way of approaching the marketplace and it allows you to look at something that has SKU concentration or a unicorn product and we do see that from a lot of buyers with a business that has a unicorn product kind of thinking I don't know if I want to bet 2 million dollars on this is unicorn product here and you guys are saying well no we've got a lot of products like that so that's a twist.

Carlos: Oh that's good to know. I mean alright so we do have a slight twist on it.

Mark: So how many deals if you're able to share even broadly how many deals do you think you guys have done so far?

Carlos: I'm going to be a little cooler here about some of these things. But we've done dozens of deals so not high but we're moving quickly and that number is increasing over time.

Mark: Yeah.

Carlos: So it's been exciting for us and then going back to the ego of the SKU concentration question, I just wanted to add something. You guys are talking about like because there's a lot of interesting; Amazon sellers [inaudible 00:13:56.7] you get this real business straight where they've used these products out there, viral launch or fellows got a [inaudible 00:14:02.6] and they found four different holes in the market so they're selling pot holders and humidifiers and some sort of potted plant for the fruit product you know great different [inaudible 00:14:13.5] and I got 4 of them. And you know to somebody external coming in looking at that would go sheesh they're all over the place. They're not just sporting goods and that's crazy. But we get it. We get that that's how Amazon works and what matters is the listing and it's position relative to its competitors in the keyword space, right? And that's what we look at and we care about. So it's usually like in that sense also that business is attractive to us because it's again concentrated even if it's in strange different products. We don't have to have like this suite of products around like I said one vertical where you're building a brand into it. Again that's an interesting point to discuss is the position of brand in the Amazon marketplace because let's face it were all talking about FBA businesses here and frankly most people who buy these things; I see a product in the wild all the time and I love it. You go to a friend's house and they've got one of your products sitting there. Like oh, it's great but where did you get it? Well, do they say the little brand that we happen to buy? No, they say Amazon, right? They got it on Amazon. They got it from Amazon, if they had a problem they would drive it to Amazon. We're at a place right now where we're still; we're all sitting on the coattails of Amazon; the brand halo that Amazon provides. So we recognize that and we're going to be very clear about that and how we look at the products and the ecosystem.

Mark: So do guys place much weight at all on a business building a brand or even building customers outside of Amazon such as email list and being able to drive that to products and new products or is that kind of a secondary metric that you look at?

Carlos: It's a secondary metric. I won't say we don't look at it, we certainly do and there is some value there but it is dwarfed by the value presented by the Amazon ecosystem. And so we care 1st and foremost about how you are positioned on Amazon. But of course it's nice to have someone that you know the e-mails and people that love your product or you know if you do because what happens now is oftentimes we will have or we'll acquire a product that is in the same space but we have 5 more. And so that becomes what we start to now as a business uniquely perhaps accrue some value from things like that. Because if you have that email list of 40,000 chefs or something; people who love cooking and I have 4 other cooking products now I can cross-promote our stuff right through there. So it does start to have some value the longer we go out there. I think that value will increase the more we do this but right now we're still pulling stuff in all sorts of different spaces. They don't always overlap and it's something we look at but it certainly is a secondary metric.

Mark: When I look at companies like yours not just specifically within the Amazon space and I want to talk about that in little bit here but when I look at companies like yours that are consolidating businesses and millions of them the portfolio the approach is typically to find efficiencies in combining things together. So if you're looking at a content network of websites so completely divorced from the Amazon world what you have usually is a staple of writers, editors, and an editorial process that can turn out new content to be able to build up a network that way. So bringing a new content site isn't as labor-intensive you have this natural efficiency. E-commerce stores in the past what I've seen have been logistic efficiencies. You're able to have maybe the same warehouse staff fulfill more products. When you guys are doing what you're doing and again I think it blends itself maybe to this Asense approach I think from my evaluation; I'd love to get your comments on this, it seems like you're doing this for 2 reasons. One I would imagine efficiencies which I'd love to know where those are but also a portfolio sort of approach to things and that you're spreading out over lots of different Asense niche vertical agnostic as you say but it's more of let's not bid on one winner let's bet on a lot of winners potentially. But I'd love to get into 1st of all have you confirm that and then get into are you doing this also for efficiencies within your company that you can run these businesses may be more efficiently and if so where are those?

Carlos: So that's a great point and something worth to think about. So I've done your traditional rollups before. We sold the company in the late '90s to a company called US Web; a lot of people may—you probably remember a national brand of webshops doing person websites and stuff. But you know the traditional kind of rollup looks more for the—like those efficiencies are more important there because it's all about pulling costs down, right? If you go acquire a 100 30 person companies and each one of those 30 person companies has inside person finance team or a 3 person finance team whatever and 3 salespeople I am sure you don't need all those, right? You need 3 finance people for all 100 of them or maybe 6 but still not a linear scale. So that kind of efficiency is certainly more important in a traditional rollup. Like you said rolling up content on websites that would be important there also because you have editors and writers and HTML people and designers and that can be where there can be leverage across more stuff certainly if you template size that. It's less of a big deal in this Amazon ecosystem. And what some reasoning about what Amazon has down here in creating all these millions of solopreneurs is they've taken not just Amazon also it's all the supply chain companies, it's the manufacturers. They've simplified this interaction so much that you can get a single person running a 5 million dollar business which is unheard of in history. It's incredible. So it's taken out a lot of the complexity. Now, most of the time when you get to that scale you've got a couple of assistants; part-time assistants, VA's, someone like that so it could be drive efficiencies there. Yeah, we certainly can if they're good but it's more about being able to improve the performance than it is a simple efficiency. So [inaudible 00:19:54.9] a lot of these, we meet a lot of great sellers who I just love them. Like classic entrepreneurs that dropped out of college or I just got out of college and started selling on Amazon and I travel the world and living the life and they built great products and they just hustle. And they're smart. That's great but when it comes to global sourcing and your supply chain I mean from all over the world and getting into different places in Amazon you're not going to be as good at it as the team that I have here. I've got a leader here who ran a 2 billion dollar supply chain in 140 countries for one of the largest shipping companies in the world. And we have a whole team of people under this on the side doing this work. And so we can do it better and more efficiently. We can negotiate better. We can do both on the shipping side and the manufacturing side with volume discounts. So we can do that better and we, therefore, carve out more profit from these products. I mean I'd look at it from creative; we're doing stuff across hundreds of products in all sorts of different areas. We know things that are working that are very likely work what the impact is and what is it and we are—I can afford to have photographers on staff if I want to because I don't have to try a different outsource for all this stuff all the time. Let's say advertising and marketing that's another key place where it's not necessarily about the efficiency of having less people doing it for more things. It's really about the knowledge. I've come from a performance marketing background. I sold 2 companies with our Google performance marketing company and a Facebook performance marketing company that were top of the line but we did. I've got a team here that is 2nd to none in understanding performance marketing and driving traffic from all these various sources. And Amazon is just another PPC marketplace so should we be able to do better than the individual seller who did a good job with their business? Yeah, we should. So I see it as efficiency in deploying new resources for new revenue; resources to improve the performance of the products where they are. It's not like a cost efficiency, right?

Mark: Sure. Now that makes complete sense. I want to ask; you know one of the problems I have seen companies run into when they're consolidating either businesses or in your case Asense but I would still consider them businesses to some extent but be the consummate of Peter robbing Paul. You buy a dog and it starts draining the resources of the companies. What have you guys done to protect yourself against that? When you do multiple acquisitions you're going to buy a bad one at some point. It's just going to happen. So what have you guys done to help protect yourself against draining the resources of the company? When do you pull the plug?

Carlos: You know it's not even so that you buy a bad one in this ecosystem; it's that you bought one that has bad competitors; but screw with that, right? I mean Amazon sellers know what I'm talking about very well. I mean the wrong complaint even if it's fake even if it's not correct put into Amazon can shut you down or slow you down or cause problems. So yeah look I mean we have to know the difference between a problem like that that we're going to fix versus someone like you said just a bad egg or we're going to pull the plug. I think we've done this a lot. My partner Josh and I both started a bit part of a number of startups, started companies ourselves. He's one of the most creative and experienced financial dealmakers I've ever seen. He's done more debt deals and equity deals than anybody. I think we look at those dispassionately with—I mean I think that's the key, think about capital allocation which is really what we're doing and you can go listen to a podcast about that all day, there's some great ones. You've got to know when to cut your losses and do it fast. That's the key. And we don't get emotional about it. That's hard to the seller who builds their family of 20 products and each one is kind of—this business is their baby and each one of those is another baby of theirs and they may be getting chilled on the [inaudible 00:23:47.8] or something or letter openers but they love it and they think they can get back to it and they're going to hold on to it longer than they should. We don't have that. We have no baggage on it. If the letter opener just sucks then we'll cut it off. So quite often if we buy a business that has a lot of SKU without the SKU concentration we like, we'll look at it and we'll cut the losers day one. I mean we're not even going to pay for them if we're not making money on it. In some cases we will actually—sometimes it's underperforming ones and the seller may want to keep them and keep working at them. We have actually—we'll buy individuals SKUs or separate SKUs from somebody so our Asense—I think everybody knows [inaudible 00:24:21.5] Asense it but more people have SKUs and SKUs are so. I think it's just a question. You just have to be dispassionate about it and have a financial mindset towards it. And you know look sometimes it's worth setting because you know you can get back but sometimes you cant.

Mark: I mean you may not have emotions related to some of these products but you do have investors within your company, right? I mean how much has that play into it as far as not wanting to pick that losing SKU or an SKU with bad competitors as you put it?

Carlos: It doesn't. I mean we have great investors but they're not that involved in the business for the looking at individual deals we're doing. We cross call there early on a decision we made that was really—I think really important. And that was the only way we're going to do it was we cross collateralize investors across everything we do. So there are some people who look to this market by saying hey I'm going to do an SPV and acquire this—

Mark: What is SPV?

Carlos: Social Partners Vehicle. So you can raise money in a single; it's almost like separate companies and then they're all related in some point in the future [inaudible 00:25:22.7] together and rationalize based on revenue and EBIDTA or whatever it is. But then we have a different set of investors and that ends up; that's a really bad idea because then you have your intent and what you want to do can be across purposes, right? At this group of investors over here their product is going down and I shouldn't focus on it anymore but this group over here the product is doing great and if I put more effort there I'm going to make a lot more money. The right thing for me and for the business is the focus where I need to and approve there but if you've done your financing that way then you're kind of shackled. That's what we did not do. We were not going to do that. It just doesn't make any sense. So it was important to talk about cross collateralizing across everything and say look everyone we buy that was into this and you all are part of this. So that allows us to have that broader focus.

Mark: Why Amazon? I mean there's a lot of different rollup place within the online space and you've got a really remarkable resume with tech companies. You could have gone for ad networks, you could have gone for content sites, you could've done any number of things as in the video—

Carlos: The advertising space.

Mark: Alright so maybe not that; bad example. But why choose Amazon?

Carlos: It's funny. This started actually as an e-commerce rollup. So you go back to it because maybe I [inaudible 00:26:39.0] why Amazon is probably one of the reasons you said why we were kind of coy about talking about what we're doing for a while and now we are talking about it. We discovered this and it looks super easy. It's not as easy as we thought but it never is. So we originally were going to do e-commerce like my Facebook Advertising company Orion CKB, we were all performance marketing which is not [inaudible 00:26:59.0] you know change names again but a fantastic group but we were very, very good at performance marketing on Facebook and so all of our customers were either e-commerce or lead gen but people who made money from what we did. And so we started looking at that and saying hey e-commerce companies are getting smaller and smaller and they're able to produce more value and this whole supply chain kind of thing is figured out maybe there's an opportunity to go out and rollup the small ones and take what we know how to do which is all the performance marketing which ultimately was adding value to these businesses more so than the other piece of it and we could create additional value by putting them together. So we were doing and looking at e-commerce and when you do that you start to look at Amazon as a channel obviously. So we thought Amazon would be a channel for our e-commerce play. I just started looking into it and started meeting people in the ecosystem and at the same time my e-commerce customers at my Facebook advertising agency were asking us like you guys are good at Facebook can you run our Amazon ads for us because we're not doing well there. So we started really looking into that. Once we looked into the Amazon ecosystem it was really—it was amazing. I mean to me to see the leverage that you've got. We all pay for it certainly to Amazon but like it's the green traffic; that's a sure thing. You're paying for it but anyone who is looking for product that you've got to build [inaudible 00:28:13.6] you'll get it. Or you can have great product and you don't have the right team driving traffic to you on Facebook and Google and no one is going to know about it. You're not going to get it. You're not going to get it to [inaudible 00:28:22.8]. So we just started to see that the Amazon ecosystem was really, really much more powerful and we think the deals were better and the opportunity to move here was quicker and to find these companies and then I think we—I would rather be lucky than good any day Mark but I think we just hit the right time when we sort of started looking at this and there were more and more businesses. We really just kind of went out to sites like yours and looked around to see what was on the internet available and we started to see these Amazon businesses and we said let's give it a try. Let's nab a couple of these. Then we really all started to gel from that.

Mark: So many Amazon sellers look at Amazon obviously with big eyes of opportunity but also wary eyes of distrust for what Amazon is going to do. And frankly for some people that have been selling on Amazon; let's talk about Amazon vendor central you know maybe that's been justified. Amazon as of the time we're recording this podcast well it was about a month ago they sent basically non-renewal just to so many vendors that saying we're not going to be buying any more products from you and poof those businesses are basically gone; not entirely but very, very damaged. How do you get over the suspicion of Amazon bad or evil I don't trust them but I'll make money from them?

Carlos: We get asked this a lot and I've dealt with these behemoths. That's all I've done for the last like 10 plus years 12 years. So Google I thought; I have an SEO company I've been doing SEO for a long time there we did Google PPC the company we grew here before we sold to the post companies like Facebook and Facebook Advertising company. I've dealt with these you know the fangs whatever these giant companies that seem kind of harmless in a move without caring and you can try to read the [inaudible 00:30:07.7] in what they're doing but I think the most important thing—I have longevity in all those places by doing a couple of simple things. Like by following the rules, being a good actor in the ecosystem, and understanding what they're looking for. And frankly this vendor central change; it's tough for a lot of those guys and you can go back to 2002 and start reading Jeff Bezos' shareholder letters and these telegraph—not telegraph I mean just really writing down in words this is what we're going to do, this is where we are. People asked if he was a competitor of Barnes and Noble back in '99 and 2000 and he said no. He's always had a vision for building a platform and a marketplace. He said they sell books. We're a marketplace. They needed to be the 1st party seller to be the whole vendor central platform to get it to the scale and size that they want to be. He's been writing about the marketplace since then and there are some great quotes about—he talks about the businesses they get married to that are great. They try a lot of stuff. And third party seller marketplace is one of them. It's that, AWS, and product. Those are the 3 pillars of their business. So think if you think about that, they're not going to destroy one of the pillars of their business. And then if you get into their numbers outsized portion of their profits is driven by—actually all of their profit is driven by these 3 businesses. And we all know that AWS provides an enormous part of profit for them and the marketplace they don't want it all breaking out independently. You can kind of read between the lines there and see its producing profit; a lot. And that's where these decisions are gotten from. And again profit is not always his goal that's why he's moved so much inventory and product over the years. But again I think it's been telegraphed there. So I really think that Amazon's positioning in this space is to be the marketplace to do what they've done. They say they have 500 million things or items for sale on Amazon. They didn't get there by having a sourcing team like Walmart does you know going out and sourcing individual products. You got to have a 20 million person sourcing team. They have 6 million person—there's 6 million accounts on seller central. We all know that a lot of people have double ones whatever the Chinese companies do different things but there was probably a couple of million sellers there for real make any kind of money. And they are doing all of that for them. So I just think if you look at the business it's clear what Amazon is all about and where they're going and from that standpoint [inaudible 00:32:28.5] after the ecosystem and you'd be in good shape.

Mark: Yeah I've quoted the actual number here and I don't do show prep but I actually prepped a little bit for this here and looked at some Amazon statistics 229 billion dollars in 3rd party services and then in 2018, 1 million new sellers joined their reseller services. About 3,000 people per day. Now again probably some duplicate accounts and there's probably some even 3rd or 4th accounts in there.

Carlos: 6 accounts yeah. There's a lot of real; I mean they've released the numbers. There's 200,000 sellers that make 6 figures and up, 100,000 a year and up US dollars. I mean there's 2 million who have made any money I think as the states or you know the 50,000 might be a lot of money to somebody I'm just saying in a year, right? So I think there are 50,000 sellers that do half a million a year and up someone like that. So that's a city man.

Mark: Yeah, I know absolutely, in fact, one of these statistics was if Amazon was a country they would be 140th largest country in the world something like that in terms of gross domestic product; absolutely amazing statistics. I tend to agree with you in the past I've been pretty publicly bearish on Amazon because I felt like it was a gold rush. However, seeing where they're going and you are ahead of the curve on this reading what Bezos was saying that they wanted to be a marketplace and they want to be that de facto ecosystem of the internet where people buy stuff. Alright, they want—when you think I'm going to buy something online, they don't want to think about any other solution other than I'm going to buy it through Alexa or through the Internet or through my app or whatever because that just works and that's where all the products are. So I agree I think they're going all-in on that. I don't think it's much of a mystery and so because of that, I think 3rd party sellers are actually really well positioned especially right now because it's still relatively immature but I have to ask you about competitors. Shopify recently announced that they are going to spend over a billion dollars on the Shopify fulfillment network which is going to be able to power all of their sellers with customized packaging and full-on fulfillment services. Obviously, Target and Walmart are offering free today shipping without having the Amazon Prime subscription. You said you don't want to read the tea leaves but I'm going to ask you to read the tea leaves. Let's talk a little bit about the future here with some of these competitors. Do they even stand a chance and are we going to see a consolidation of the marketplace or do companies like Thas.io—I'm going to get this right, need to have more of a multi-channel approach?

Carlos: I think that Shopify announcement was awesome. I love that. I think it's a brilliant idea and I hope it works. I mean we would love to have more channels. And we sell in other channels I mean in small amounts. It's really for us it's a question of focus; I've started a lot of companies and you know the platitudes and stuff about it you've got to focus strategy and saying no. If we have lived through that a bunch of times you don't really get it. It's like you don't always have to feel if the oven is hot to understand that we can have someone tell us. But it really is about having that—the focus is about saying hey look this is what we do, we do really well right now, let's perfect this and then let's worry about other things. If that thing is big enough and takes enough of your time that's worth doing so there's a lot of complexity in the Amazon ecosystem alone with some of it like I expected it's been more than I thought I expected it's been crazier and surprising but there's just some stuff in there that's even surprised me. The competition is quite [inaudible 00:36:11.1] stuff on there. But we fully intend to look at other channels and well I mean we are exploring. As I said we have some small alternate channel sales already. We're looking at retail. I mean let's face it as large as Amazon gets that I think retail is over 10 trillion [inaudible 00:36:26.7] or something like that and 90% of it is still transacted offline. I mean people are still buying a lot of stuff in stores so you'd be crazy not to be looking at that as a channel. So it's really a question time for us of when. So where we've been at this less than a year really, around a year, so that's a lot to do in a year where we're both acquiring all these products but then having to operate them and having to worry about improving them at the same time we're building the company. We're building the teams and the systems that allow us to do this and the processes and procedures. So it's really just a question of looking at that way and that's kind of just traditional kind of start-up thinking and how you go about this stuff. But I do think that whether they succeed enormously or not; Shopify, they have a good chance of succeeding with this. It's always just a question of what portion of revenue it accounts for. I mean we looked at a lot of these businesses that say they're going to start to sell on Walmart and stuff. We've seen people that are selling on Walmart and have been doing it for a while and it's 5% of their sales on Amazon, 10% of their sales and I'm like Amazon is so dominant when you talk about sort of pruning like how do we deal—what do we do the bad product. Well to an extent like if I can focus on that 90% of revenue that's on Amazon and do better with it I'm going to make more than my trying this hack out a little bit more on Walmart which is a more difficult to work with ecosystem right now. So I think those guys are going to have to up their game. I mean for everything I hear they're not as easy to work with and let's forget all the other channels beyond that. Shopify I imagine will do a good job of that. I mean they understand user interface. They understand simplicity as well better than anybody. So I'm excited to see what they do. But let's face it so I've been throwing around the statistics, some like 50%, 56% of product searches start on Amazon now. From all the products ranks and more than all the search engines combined including Google. But I just saw a new figure that among millennials and below it's like 76% chronic searches are starting on Amazon. Come on it is [inaudible 00:38:26.8] great when you're looking for something and you want to toothbrush you just pull up Amazon now and you go and you get it. It shows up at your door anywhere from 2 hours depending on where you are to 2 days, right? Or even 3 whatever but you don't have to think about it anymore. So I think that dynamic is just going to continue to play itself out. I don't think of Amazon as this company so to speak anymore really. It's a commerce internet. And so you're telling me you have channel risk, it's like telling me I have channel risk because I'm on the internet. People told me that and you probably too like 15 years ago [inaudible 00:38:58.1] problem that you're only selling yourself on the internet. I was like, okay, next [inaudible 00:39:02.6] person, right? And so from that perspective, I hope these other things are successful. I hope Shopify makes a go of it. We will certainly be in all these channels over time but right now Amazon is a great place to focus your efforts to drive value.

Mark: Yeah to your point about 90% of all retail sales are still happening offline and validated by the statistical research I was doing before this that Amazon accounts for 5% of all retail sales. So what does that mean? That means that the 5% of this highly fragmented online sales happening and that's been fragmented by Walmart, Target, and other big box stores that have gone online but then also the millions of onesie twosie sort of sellers online that are playing in 100 to $500,000 of revenue per year and there's a lot of those little businesses out there doing just that. So I think your point is right. Right now in the marketplace where we're at Amazon is dominant. Amazon is the new Google as for just e-commerce transactions online. So then that leads us to the question of how do you compete on Amazon? What are the most and this is going to round out our conversation, we're almost coming to the time here but how do you compete in the long term? The one criticism I hear about Amazon is look it's a marketplace so products tend to be somewhat ubiquitous and you kind of get into a race on the bottom because the only way to differentiate yourself in many ways is on price. You don't have better customer service because that's been equalized by Amazon. So you can differentiate on product or on price and where do you see the best way to set up a defensible long term position?

Carlos: So 1st I would say that I slightly disagree in a way customer service is handled by the companies themselves. Like how quickly you respond to queries, what you do if something has a problem, grand Amazon is kind of front line there but there's a lot you can do in that space. Yeah I mean look overall people don't always buy the cheapest product. Heck I know I don't. Maybe it's dumb but I'm the guy who goes to the page and I'm looking for a 2 grand [inaudible 00:41:15.4]. I don't just buy the cheapest one on the page. Some people do but I got to look for someone and someone I got to go researching, I look for quality. I mean it really comes back to what I was saying earlier like about playing with these giants these ecosystems is being a good actor in the ecosystem. Now people used to ask me about Google SEO like how do you guys do this? I've been running SEO properties for 10 plus years now through every Google change with penguin, panda, whatever animal name you want to bring up. They change multiple times a month and people will say what's your secret, how do you keep doing that? And my secret was I said those pages on Google, those site where they explain to you what to do for SEO. And that's what we do. We follow their rules. There's a lot of rules and we follow them all and we do a good job of that. Amazon says here's how to play, here's what to do, have a great product and make sure you're treating customers well and you're responding well. If your ratings are going down is it a problem with your product or how you deal with that right. So I mean I may sound silly hear [inaudible 00:42:18.2] but like the reality is make a great product, service the customer—where you can do customer service do a good job of it and be a good actor in this ecosystem. With that being said there is an element of Amazon that is cheap [inaudible 00:42:33.2] race to the bottom and you've got to think about how you differentiate yourself. I mean look if your supply chain is more efficient and you're better off than going to the bottom you'll win that battle and you'll sell a lot. I think you're going to start to see some branding differentiation over time. Right now as I said earlier we kind of discount that because everyone feels like they're buying from Amazon and this is just the evolution of marketplace as I think a little bit. But if you're in a category where you know tennis shoes or something someone is going to buy a Nike or Adidas or whatever they like. You got to think about some categories that will matter some it won't. I mean if you're buying a letter opener you don't really care if it's a Nike letter opener. Not really, right? So you have to be able to play by the other things I'm saying. Just be a good actor, have a great product, and make sure your supply chain is tight. I think for individual sellers looking at this marketplace, certainly new ones, I mean it's just tough to get into now. I mean that certainly is an issue because it's really just blown up in the last 5 years; 4, 5 years. And so there's people in almost every space crowding it out. But I don't want to—again it's a price differentiation already. We've actually seen products, deals, and you may have heard some of these said once or kind of funny like where they raised the price every week for like 6 months and kept selling more. There's counterintuitive examples of all these stuff and there's reasons people do things when they're buying and shopping and you don't necessarily know all of them but it's not necessarily just one [inaudible 00:44:13.2] press.

Mark: Yeah, I agree I mean I obviously look at a lot of Amazon businesses and more and more I'm seeing the ones that are consistently growing over the years are the ones that never really actually compete on price, to begin with. They've looked at a product or maybe even in a crowded category and said how can we innovate on this and create something just different enough that nobody else is really going to want to compete against us but we're going to create something that's super useful and then magically; of course it's not really magical like you said it's being a good actor and doing what Amazon wants and creating a good product that people like. It works for the long term and it's more sustainable. So I'm happy to hear you say that because of the broad experience with different Asense that you guys at your group have just kind of validates that. Now the last question I'm going to ask you it revolves around this idea of product creation. I am going to ask you for more of a general rule maybe it's not the right way to go because I do think that there are multiple ways to compete on Amazon but I want to see if we can get to a generic sort of here is maybe the best practice and how to be a good actor in the community. Where would you recommend sellers put most of their effort or break up their efforts and I'll put it into product creation and innovation and quality versus the Amazon-specific metrics of making sure that you have high ratings and maybe even going out and gaining those if you have to or being aggressive of as ways get those versus the PPC side I'm going to try and get as much sales velocity as possible whether that be on Amazon or setting off Amazon traffic as well to Amazon to get that most sales velocity. So kind of 3 groups here, right? You have the sales metrics that kind of influence things, the customer service and ratings, and then the product quality. Where do you think people need to really be giving up their time and again you might come back to say Mark you're thinking about this completely wrong. That's cool if that's what you think.

Carlos: No, but I would just say you just kind of summed up how do I be good Amazon business. It's all of these things. Like I don't think there's anyone magic bullet. PPC works for some parts, it works great. It doesn't work for all of them. I mean it's like—the thing I love about Amazon, to begin with, it is that there are certain products you can sell stuff on there you could never sell directly in another channel unless you somehow had magical viral take off or something. But like when we were on Facebook for instance; Facebook advertising, it's going to cost you 30 bucks an hour give or take something to acquire customer leads for a consumer kind of drive by product. Which means [inaudible 00:46:49.8] for 70, 75 bucks at least to make any money back after your COGS and all these kind of stuff in advertising cost. It's expensive so you can't sell a $10 item. Can you sell $10 items on Amazon? All-day, right? Because they're bringing to the people they are taking so much stuff out of the equation. But then you just have to play in the Amazon ecosystem well whether that product may not make sense to advertise to be paying to acquire customers on that one. It's tricky. I mean I think for individual sellers a product launch and new products are important. That's not something we sort focus on and particularly care about again because now you're talking about having more Asense and we're interested in having less. Lots of sellers that we've talked to it's actually they have—now you've learned all this and they know how they can launch something and they know how to do the quality of the stuff and how to get the initial purchases, they need capital. Again we don't focus on that [inaudible 00:47:48.4] one capital to do and so we will buy in like the top-performing Asense from them and they take that cash and put it back into these things they want to do and test out advertising and purchasing new product and stuff like that. I think the most important thing is just that there's more stuff now there, it's the quality question. It's the number of reviews and quality reviews. I would not—going back to what I said earlier, I would not suggest being aggressive with that or—being aggressive with following Amazon's rule is great and so whatever they say you could do. You can't ask for 4-star reviews or good reviews hence I wouldn't break in [inaudible 00:48:24.8] because my experience going back to 10 years with Google is you get away with it for a while but they catch you. They ultimately catch you and they'll burn you for it. I mean Amazon is coding reviews every month and their system is going through that probably every day but I mean they're going through it doing cleanups. And if you're doing something that's a bad actor thing in that space you're going to get busted for it. So I say do that but there are things you can do that are legit. Now if you've seen your ratings are going down because you've got some product quality issue then go fix that and send out free versions to all those customers whatever it is. Be a good actor in the system, have a voice, respond to queries, the question, and FAQs as quickly as you can and let people know you're on top of it and if that takes an external site that's informational where you talk to people about where you are who you are what your product is then do that too. I think that's an important to focus but it's hard for people to get a tall hold here now if you're not already in the ecosystem and with a product.

Mark: This has been fantastic. Carlos thank you so much for coming on. Do you have any last thing that you would want to share with the audience here or maybe a question I didn't ask that you think would be useful? Just something general Amazon or what you guys are doing over at Thras.io.

Carlos: No not really. I mean it's an exciting time to be in the space and it's a good time too for people to be selling their business and we're happy to do that help them—I'll buy them. I think you guys are an excellent brokerage. I've really enjoyed working with you guys. And I'd put a little plug there for you would. Getting someone on your side that understands what they're doing and how to represent your business and how to talk about it and help you understand what you should get and what you shouldn't; that's very important. And not all brokers are created equal, not all business people help you sell your business or equal and you guys have all done it and I've really appreciated that work with you guys.

Mark: Yeah, we've always appreciated working with your group as well. You guys have been fantastic to work with. I really appreciate you coming on here and sharing as much as you have. I mean I know what you guys are doing is pretty innovative. Not a lot of people are doing it. There are some doing it but it's great to get the insights from a company that is working with so many diverse different Asense because it just brings a different perspective to everything. I've greatly enjoyed this conversation so thank you so much. I know that the Amazon queens of the past are smiling down on your company and will continue to do so. So thank you for sharing that with me as well. And there you go. One moment do you sell that on Amazon; just curious?

Carlos: We don't sell those. [inaudible 00:51:03.8] I bought them on Amazon. It's great.

Mark: [inaudible 00:51:08.1] on Amazon. Alright, awesome. Carlos thank you so much for joining me.

Carlos: Cool. It was great talking to you, Mark.

Links and Resources:

Thrasio

Company Profile

A lot of buyers come to us and ask about the risk of buying an Amazon business. Likewise, when setting an Amazon business up to sell, what are some things to consider?  Buying up businesses and creating a profitable portfolio is something that some very savvy buyers are going all-in on. Today we are talking about Amazon FBA with someone who has been doing just that. If Amazon is the past, present, and future of e-commerce and all the others are just playing catch where do YOU want to put your money as an online business owner?

Carlos Cashman, CEO and entrepreneur, has started over a dozen companies as well purchased, sold, and taken public many others. He is now CEO of Thrasio, an FBA business acquisition company. Thrasio has a wealth of experience purchasing businesses from all over the world. At Thrasio, the team guides the seller to a deal in record time backed by expert law, due diligence, and financial teams.

Episode Highlights:

Carlos’ take on the Amazon consolidation model.

The importance of sku concentration, consolidation, and product stability.

How many Amazon deals Carlos has made.

Whether he places weight on secondary metrics such as email marketing.

Where the efficiencies are in Thrasio’s portfolio.

Navigating a bad purchase and when to cut losses.

Cross-collateral investing and how Thrasio sets that up.

Why Amazon?

Some statistics that cannot bely the retail ecosystem that is Amazon.

If and how any business can compete, in the long term, with Amazon.

Product creation and innovation best practices to follow.

The importance of having representation when selling your business.

Transcription:

Joe: Mark, I have a lot of people that come to me and talk to me as either buyers and they say, Joe, what’s the risk of buying an Amazon business? And I talk—5, 6 years ago everyone thought the risk was really high but today there are people that are a lot smarter than you and me and you and me combined and maybe all of our team that have raised 10, 20, 30 million dollars to buy up Amazon businesses and build a portfolio. And I understand you had Carlos from Thras on the podcast talking about just that.

Mark: Thras.io; he’s very careful to approach to actually correct me on that at the beginning of the podcast and he tells me the meaning behind their name which is really cool. I’m going to save it for the podcast so people can listen to that. But yeah what I wanted to know so many buyers look at Amazon only businesses and they discount them for channel risk because they’re like do you really want to be on this one platform or competition and products could be sort of ubiquitous, competition can be really tough and your subject in mercy to the whims of Amazon. And so here we have Carlos putting together a fund and buying up a lot of these Amazon Asense and the question is you’re a smart guy, you’ve done a lot of business in the past and we’ve talked about how he had grown multiple businesses and sold them, so why is he going all-in on this platform and also why are people giving him money to go all-in on this platform; what’s the reasoning here to say this is where the future of e-commerce is. And so we talked a lot of statistics on this. We talked a lot about what is the future of Amazon. And here’s a spoiler alert Amazon’s going all-in on FBA. It’s one of their 3 biggest platforms, it’s one of the 3 legs to their stool that they have with their aid of US being one and their sellers—their 3rd party services being one of the largest profit centers that they have. In addition, when you take a look at where do they stand in the marketplace, it’s staggering. Everybody knows that they’re huge. They’re 49% of online e-commerce sales. When you look at this in terms of total retail sales; total retail sales make up about roughly 10% of all—e-commerce makes up about 10% of all retail sales. Amazon makes up about half of that. So what do we do here? What are we going to

Ignorance is not bliss when it comes to sales tax. Believe it or not, today's topic is an exciting one for all buyers and sellers. Our guest is Diane Yetter from the Sales Tax Institute and Yetter Tax. She joins us to talk to us all about sales tax, sales nexus, click through Nexus, and more. Diane is a niche entrepreneur in her own right, uniquely helping other entrepreneurs navigate the tricky waters of sales tax.

Diane businesses focus exclusively on sales tax, helping companies learn what sales tax means for them and what they need to do to be in compliance with state tax laws. SalesTax Institute and Yetter Tax are educational consultancies, providing people with all the tools they need to learn the why, when, where and how of remitting sales tax for each state where they do business.

Episode Highlights:

• What click-through nexus is.
• Where and how affiliate payments are made.
• The Wayfair decision and the resulting state actions.
• Physical, Economic, and Marketplace nexus.
• Where to find the economic guide by state.
• Educational tools Diane offers on her website.
• Are there advantages to learning how these nexus' work versus hiring someone to do it?
• The penalties for collecting sales tax and not remitting it.
• Concerns and risks in the acquisitions realm.
• The process each state goes through to identify sellers out there.
• We go over the risks to buyers if the seller has not satisfied their state economic nexus.
• The odds of something coming back to haunt the new owner of a business if there are unpaid nexuses.
• The resources the Institute provides to help listeners wade through all this.

Transcription:

Mark: Alright guys welcome to another episode of the Quiet Light Podcast. Real quick before I talk to Joe; if anybody out there hasn't left a rating on the Quiet Light Podcast, do me a favor go to iTunes or Stitcher or wherever you listen to us, leave a rating, we certainly appreciate it. Makes us feel good. Makes us feel like we're doing a decent job at this whole podcasting thing. So thanks in advance to everybody that has done that. Okay, so Joe, when we're talking to a potential seller or even talking to a potential buyer one of the topics that comes up often, is how long does it take to complete the deal, right? And we have people wondering am I going to get this done in three months and what have you. The fact is these businesses are complex. On the upfront summaries what we see usually is pretty plain and simple. You see revenue, you see earnings, you see a multiple, and you kind of think well this should be nice and capsid and quick. And sometimes it is. But other times you have to look a little bit deeper. And you and I have talked about this before, right? For buyers to make sure you're looking beyond the multiple and the multiple is one point of data. And for sellers and buyers alike to also have patience with the process and understand that you're selling a complex asset. I know you had Carl on the podcast who is a recent buyer of one of our properties. And it was one of those situations where the deal took longer than expected and the numbers weren't as necessarily straightforward as maybe you would think when you just look at this. But the net result for him as a buyer and for a client were phenomenal by being patient and looking a little bit deeper.

Joe: Yes, no question. This particular deal took I want to say from letter of intent to closing seven and a half months which is probably the longest I've ever had. There's really specific reasons for it. And Carl is partly to blame for it because he made a mistake on his application to the SBA lender. So we had to do the process essentially twice. The seller Kevin hung in there with Carl because Carl was a nice guy. It made a difference. And at one point when the deal fell apart, we had to go back. Well, my advice was to go back out to market for an awful lot more money because the business has grown a lot; probably worth $400,000 more. Carl and Kevin got along so well that Kevin said no I don't want to do that to Carl. Let's just bump the price thousand $160,000; crazy. Most buyers would walk away. They'd be like no. Yesterday it was this price today you want $160,000 more. Carl didn't do that and he's being rewarded greatly for it right away instant equity, in my opinion, a quarter of a million dollars in the business. And then some things that he's doing on his end immediately once that first container load comes in doubling the discretionary earnings because of a focus on reducing COGS. It's just fantastic what he's doing. And it's a great lesson for buyers and sellers to be patient, to be focused on helping each other, and not looking just at that multiple.

Mark: You know I love this sort of story because I get it right from a buying standpoint you're looking at a lot of deal flow you need to evaluate businesses quickly. So the temptation is often to look at just the high-level metrics and to eliminate something based on that. But so many of these businesses and if I could just say you know maybe even a plug for Quiet Light you know when we bring a business to the market we usually believe in that company pretty strongly as being a good value play for buyers. And so taking the time to kind of dissect it and to understand more than the top-level metrics and what's going on underneath and look for those opportunities for that immediate win and again looking beyond that multiple. So this is a really good story of somebody doing just that and seeing a really quick reward on that. I want to listen to this. I want to hear all the dynamics. This is one of those more complex deals and I think a really good example of what happens when the deal isn't straightforward but still works out in the end.

Joe: Yeah. Hey, one other thing. I had a really strange interruption everybody in the audience I want you to get 10, 15 minutes in. Chris, our producer asked me about a particular person. I'm trying to find out who this is. If you could just get that far listen in and shoot me a note. I want to try to track that person down. Thanks, Ben. I appreciate it. Let's go to the podcast.

Joe: Hey folks it's Joe from Quiet Light Brokerage and believe it or not this is an exciting topic. It is about sales tax, sales tax nexus, click-through nexus; a term I had not heard until today. Our guest is Diane Yetter or she's from the Sales Tax Institute. So let me try that again. She's from the Sales Tax Institute, see being a podcaster is not as easy as it sounds. She's also from Yetter Tax; both all hers. Diane, welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast.

Diane: Thanks, Joe. I'm glad to be here with you.

Joe: Alright, so that I don't stutter and stumble my way through trying to tell people what you do, why don't you help us out with that?

Diane: Sure. What we do is we are a business that focuses exclusively on sales tax. And we help companies learn what sales tax means to them. So we are primarily an education business. And then we also help them understand what they need to do to be in compliance with sales tax. So we do that through helping them understand where they have nexus, what's taxable that they buy and sell, help them get appropriate systems set up so that they can handle that correctly, and then in the hopefully not event that they get audited we can help them with that. So we do that through our consulting side. And then we also provide a variety of educational courses through our Sales Tax Institute.

Joe: And it's good stuff. I just looked at some videos this morning and I've learned a bit already just in your free snippets online. And let's just throw out one of those things because I'm sure the vast majority of listeners have not heard of and I'm going to look at my notes click-through nexus. Let's just give them something that they don't know about right away before we reinforce what they should know about which is overall nexus and collecting sales taxes and the risks of not and the rewards of collecting when they go to sell their business someday. So why don't you just tell us what click-through nexus is, please?

Diane: Sure. Click-through nexus is a concept that New York started in 2008. And it's really just the attempt to move to a digital equivalent of paying salesman commissions which was found to be constitutional back in a case against Crypto Corporation in about 1960. And so what click-through nexus is is when a promoter or a seller and this really was intended to go after Amazon. Back in the day when all Amazon sold was books and people like you, Joe, if you wrote a book and you put a link on your website that referred people to Amazon to go buy your book that you would then get paid a commission; a referral fee or making that referral to Amazon. So Amazon was the seller. You were not. They paid you for sending somebody to them. Really no different than a salesman going around and knocking on a door and when they made a sale they would get a commission. And so what New York started and about 25 other states followed along over the years is that paying that commission to somebody in a state if they generated at least a certain amount of sales. Most states had $10,000 of sales from one or more commissioned agents that that created nexus for the out-of-state seller in this example Amazon.

Joe: Yeah. And it's a term I hadn't heard of before. I'm impressed if the state of New York actually originally called it click-through nexus back in 2008. Just curious do you know if they call it something else then and have [inaudible 00:09:09.2] click-through nexus?

Diane: Well what it was affectionately or unaffectionately referred to by the media was the Amazon Tax.

Joe: The Amazon Tax, okay. So most people look at nexus says okay I'm selling a physical product I've got a warehouse or Amazon has a warehouse in how many different states that's where my nexus is. What this is it's for the content sellers, it's for the affiliate marketers, it's for people that are doing product reviews where you don't actually have a physical presence. You don't have the—I'm sorry, the physical product. You're writing content, you're telling the story, you're doing reviews, and somebody in Hawaii—no I'm sorry, if you're in Hawaii and you write the content and somebody buys it in Minneapolis and there's no call center, there's no physical—I'm totally screwing this up, and there's no physical warehouse there, does that mean that you've got to collect sales taxes from that person that bought it or on that sale in Minneapolis?

Diane: So what it applies to is if the seller; so in this case, if you are not the seller of the content that you're just the person promoting the content for somebody else that's selling it.

Joe: The person that owns the physical product [crosstalk 00:10:24.5] sales taxes.

Diane: The person that owns the physical product is the one that would need to collect the tax if they make payments to you as the promoter of it.

Joe: Okay, so if anyone listening sells a brand on Amazon and also chose to do the affiliate program through Amazon and is allowing others to sell that product click-through. You should be collecting nexus wherever those sales. Is it—I'm sorry it's not where those sales occur or is it where that person that wrote the blog is?

Diane: It is supposed to be a combination of those two. However, that's often difficult to ascertain as to whether or not that affiliate payment generated the sale in that state. And so it really is going after where the affiliate payment is made to.

Joe: I got you. Okay, we may need title this to stumble through podcasts because sales taxes are crazy and there's so much information and misinformation. And is it really gray or is it all black and white conversations going out there that I think just the more we talk about the more we'll learn about it. So let's talk about the big Wayfair decision and what has come from that. Can you touch on that; what it was and the end result of for sales tax collection?

Diane: Sure. So the confusion that we just talked about with the click-through nexus actually is almost kind of going away because of the Wayfair decision and the resulting state actions. So last June 21st; so close to a year ago, the U.S. Supreme Court issued their long-awaited decision in South Dakota v. Wayfair which was a record-breaking case in terms of how fast it got to the Supreme Court. The original law was only effective in May of 2016. So for a law to be in essence validated and decided by the Supreme Court in just over two years is pretty amazing. But basically what the case was a test and when South Dakota passed their law they wrote it in such a way that they were in violation of the longstanding Supreme Court decisions and Quill Corporation and National Bellas Hess as well as the Commerce Clause. And so what the Commerce Clause said is that a state cannot impose a tax collection responsibility on an out-of-state seller unless they have a substantial presence in the state. Now what the Quill case and the National Bellas Hess case over the last 50 years had interpreted is they added a word into that Commerce Clause test. They said substantial physical presence. What the Wayfair court determined was that physical was never a word in the Commerce Clause and that the state or the prior courts had simply interpreted it to require that physical presence. So by their decision where they actually stated that their decision in Quill was wrong; and they actually said that in the decision, they were overturning that Quill decision. By doing that they said physical presence is no longer a requirement before a state can impose a collection responsibility on an out-of-state business. Rather it needs to have a substantial presence. The company has to have a substantial presence in the state. And the South Dakota law defines substantial presence as having more than $100,000 of sales or more than 200 sale transactions which we define as an invoice into the state. And so that is—

Joe: Does this make nexus defined as having a 3PL or Amazon having a warehouse, does this make nexus go away and it flips to what you're talking about now?

Diane: It does not. Physical presence is still the first test that needs to be identified. So if there is an Amazon warehouse and you have inventory if you're an FBA seller then the economic nexus really doesn't matter. And the thresholds that are set in the states with the economic nexus are not relevant because of the physical presence of the inventory in the warehouse.

Joe: Okay but if there's no physical nexus it then flips to economic nexus.

Diane: Correct.

Joe: Okay, and how many states currently have adopted the economic nexus?

Diane: So we have almost all; every state has either enacted it and it's effective, enacted it and it will be effective. The latest one we have going effective I believe is July 1 right now, we've got some October ones that are in propose. And we've got I think its six states left that are in proposed status right now. The only one that has rescinded and doesn't look like it will pass this year is the state of Florida.

Joe: God I love the state of Florida.

Diane: Right.

Joe: Where on your site and which sites; Sales Tax Institute or Yetter Tax can someone go right now and figure out which states have economic nexus? Do you have something like that?

Diane: We absolutely do. So you can go to SalesTaxInstitute.com and then go to our resources section and on that, you'll see a link to the remote seller nexus chart. And on that there are; that page will have all of the different types of remote seller nexus. So the click-through we talked about, affiliate, marketplace, economic, and the notice and reporting. There will also be a link on their specific economic nexus state guide which will give you all of the various different nuances of the rules for economic nexus.

Joe: Look at that you've even got a video in there as well. Fantastic. Okay, part of what you do at the Sales Tax Institute is education. You're training people to understand and learn about sales taxes. Are these a combination of in-person training or is it online training as well?

Diane: So we do a variety of different types of training. We have monthly webinars that are live in-person or live webinars where you can actually interact with me and ask me live questions. So we have a variety of different topics that you can look at.

Joe: Is there a cost to the webinars?

Diane: There is. Those cost $175 but you can have your entire team gathered around one phone line and it's a single charge.

Joe: And you'll sleep better that night or maybe not at all depending on really.

Diane: Exactly.

Joe: When I was looking at your some of the videos I wrote down is ignorance bliss?? And I think it's not when it comes to sales taxes. And we'll get into that a little bit more but—alright so there's a monthly webinar; very, very reasonable price.

Diane: A monthly live webinar, we also have some on-demand webinars, and one of the ones that might be very helpful to those of you listening now is we have a sales tax 101 webinar. And so that's on-demand. The cost of that is also $175 but you can watch it as many times as you want in 30 days. And that will go through and give you all the basic concepts and it was updated after the Wayfair decision so it's got a lot of the current information about what's going on today. So we've got I think it's five on-demands and then we also have live in-person classes. So we have a three-day basics of sales tax class if you really need to get in depth. That's held in June annually and then we have; it is usually in Chicago.

Joe: Okay.

Diane: And then our advanced workshop is for people with four or more years of experience and that is held annually in the April-May. We just had that this year in Chicago and next year we'll be out on the West Coast. We also have a; we've offered it twice now, a nine-week online class. We call it sales tax jumpstart. So we will offer that again in September. Exact date not yet defined. And that is really meant and who a lot of our attendees have been in our first two cohorts of that are people that are like your listeners Joe that are smaller businesses, can't get away for three full days of sales tax, and we give them basically all the steps and tools for what they need to do to be compliant. So we break it down into two-hour blocks over nine weeks. And we also share with them a lot of the tools we use in advising our clients. So we try to help them be more self-sufficient.

Joe: You know it's interesting as you're talking I know that we're sharing your URL. I mean we're 15 minutes into the podcast and we normally don't pitch and promote the people that are on. It's not about that it's about education. But I think that this is education that you can't listen to it; this podcast and understand everything about sales taxes. So I think I'm having Diane's share this folks early because this information is so complex and so in-depth and changing on a monthly basis because new states are enacting the economic nexus and you need to have some sort of downloadable chart to understand it. Or better yet Diane what we do here often is tell people to outsource. Like you can do the bookkeeping yourself but you're probably a marketer so focus on marketing and outsource the bookkeeping. Yeah, there's legal stuff you've got to do for your business, don't hire an attorney and bring them in-house so you'd outsource that. Why in the world does an entrepreneur that's running a small business with let's say a staff of six need to go through the Sales Tax Institute and learn all of these things themselves when they can hire a company just to do it all for them. I know you don't do that; you train, you educate, you consult. Why not just hire a company to do it all? Again is that a little bit of ignorance is bliss you still have to know it or can you just hire one of these firms that we hear about that will help you set it up and collect and pay the states, what to do and you just don't worry about it. Is that a fantasy?

Diane: It's not exactly. You could certainly hire. There are a couple of different things that you need to do. If you're selling on a marketplace platform there are less requirements that you need to worry about and that is because the actual tax calculation is going to be handled by the marketplace.

Joe: Let's call the marketplace Amazon. Is that Amazon is going to collect them?

Diane: Amazon is the marketplace; correct. If you're selling on Amazon you don't need to acquire software to calculate the tax because Amazon is calculating the tax on that order. Now Amazon is going to send you the data and the financial dollars that they collect in the sales tax. In some of the states, you are going to have to prepare the sales tax return and remit that tax directly to the state. Now the trend that we're seeing in 2019 is states are saying you know what we're going to remove the burden to the sellers that sell on marketplaces and put that tax collection and remittance responsibility on the marketplaces. And so we've got a vast number of states that already have enacted that legislation. And we've got a large number of states that have it still proposed this year. We call this our marketplace nexus on our charts. And so what we're assuming is that—I think there's only five or six states that don't have any legislation proposed to this year or passed yet. And the rest of them are really moving towards saying we're going to remove that burden.

Joe: Okay I just want to say. I love that. I love all in capital letters marketplace nexus because that takes the burden out of the hand of the entrepreneur, right? I mean they're just—

Diane: It does as long as they are only selling on a marketplace.

Joe: Right.

Diane: I think what we find is a lot of the sellers that sell on marketplaces also have their own website.

Joe: They should. In my opinion, it'll bring a higher value. The problem is that Amazon is growing at such a pace. There are more businesses that used to be 75% let's say Shopify, 25%t Amazon and now it's flipped.

Diane: Right.

Joe: That will level out over time I'm sure. But yeah let's talk about that. So somebody that is selling on third-party marketplaces but they've also got an Amazon store—I mean their own website, even if they're only selling 5% of their total revenues.

Diane: Correct. So where it gets challenging is most of the states require you to include the sales on the marketplaces along with your direct sales in determining whether or not you exceed the threshold to determine if you have substantial taxes. With most states its $100,000 of sales or 200 transactions. So if you're very successful on Amazon and only selling maybe 5 to 20% of your sales are on your own website then you still may exceed those thresholds. And now you do need to have some sort of solution in your direct sales to calculate the tax and then you'll have the responsibility for remitting it. So yes there are companies that sell software that can integrate with your e-commerce platform. Some of the e-commerce platforms have some of the software baked in so to speak so that you don't have to separately license it.

Joe: Which ones have that baked in?

Diane: So Shopify Plus has a baked-in version of Avalara. Magento I think has some baked in of either Avalara or [inaudible 00:23:58.2] depending upon the version that you're on but others you may have to pay a license fee for that calculation side. The second piece of it is once you calculate and collect the tax you need to remit that tax to the various different tax authorities. Those software companies also could do that for you as an outsource, your bookkeeper may be able to do that for you, and there are also other firms that we work with that are just sales tax outsourcing compliance, providers. My firm doesn't do that but we do work with other firms that do.

Joe: Do you have references for those firms on your website?

Diane: We do.

Joe: Okay.

Diane: We got those on our website.

Joe: So what would happen if somebody signs up for Shopify plus they collect all this money and they don't properly set up the remittance or the payment to the states? How long is it going to take for the states to figure out and what are they going to do?

Diane: Well collecting tax and not remitting it is about the worst thing you can do.

Joe: Can we call that a crime?

Diane: It actually is criminal fraud. It will earn you an orange jumpsuit.

Joe: It is the new black so that's—

Diane: It is the new black. You're right.

Joe: Thank you. I have to say it. Sorry, everyone.

Diane: You had to. Everybody does. So just as you never want to be withholding income taxes from your employee's paychecks and not turn those over to the government collecting sales tax and not remitting it is at that same level. Sales taxes when you collected are considered trust taxes. So you need to make sure that you are remitting the tax that you collect. How quickly will the state find you? That really depends. Often it can happen because an auditor bought something from you and then doesn't see you registered. Or it could be a customer that complains.

Joe: That could just be bad luck. Do the right thing folks; do the right thing. Ignorance is definitely not bliss. Let's talk about this a little bit. We're 20 minutes in let's get to the meat of what—say potential buyers and potential sellers are concerned about with both marketplace nexus and economic nexus know, right? Alright, I'm going to just redefine the economic nexus. I get that's when you hit a certain threshold. What's the first nexus? Oh, it's physical nexus.

Diane: Physical; correct.

Joe: Alright. So yeah this is the stumble through podcast. I'm going to rename it all. Okay, so we've got a business for sale. They've done four million dollars in revenue in the last 12 months. Let's just say they're keeping 20% so the profits are $800,000. The business is for sale for three and a half, four-time multiple and they get three point two million dollars. And let's say that they've been around for five years. They're selling on third-party marketplaces at this point it's probably that 75% there and 25% elsewhere on their own Shopify store, Zulily whatever the case might be. If they're only collecting sales taxes where they have physical nexus and in their own home state and I buy the business; it's an asset sale, not a stock sale.

Diane: Right.

Joe: What's the risk to me if any?

Diane: So I think the first thing is if they're actually collecting in all of the states who have physical presence; so where they've got inventory sitting in an Amazon warehouse they're steps ahead because that's where we're finding a lot of the risk is that these Amazon sellers are not collecting in the states where there is inventory in the warehouse. So if the only risk that they have are the states where there was economic nexus past which the earliest the state goes back on any of that for all practical purposes we have a couple of outliers is June 21st which is the date of the decision 2018 with New York. We've got Massachusetts and Ohio that go back a little bit further because they have something just to add a little bit more confusion to it Joe that's referred to as cookie nexus which is a digital present. So if you drop cookies which every Amazon seller is dropping cookies on their visitor's websites—on their devices so that they can track them. That was deemed to be a physical presence in both Ohio and Massachusetts so they go back a little bit further. Let's take those guys out.

Joe: Okay.

Diane: So if we're saying today we're selling our business we've been registered in all of my Amazon warehouse states and I've just got economic nexus going back almost a year. And if I haven't been registered in those states then there is a risk although we think that it's probably not a great risk if it is just the economic nexus. Okay? Average sales tax rate across the country is somewhere between 8 ½, 9% is the average rate. Of course, we've got some lower and we've got some higher. And so your risk is not 8 ½% of your profit but 8% of your gross sales. And so it's 8 ½% of—let's say 25% of your 4 million is in economic only nexus, 8 ½% of your million for the last year of sales.

Joe: And then you've got to further divide it up into—you've got to hit that economic nexus in those individual states. And with where you've got the physical nexus we're going to count that money and see if we hit that average $100,000 threshold or 200 transactions. It's very complex. Almost to the point where it makes me wonder if that state employee in the sales tax division making whatever they make really cares and is going to dig deep to try to find you that sold a widget after you've sold all the assets of your business. What is the process the state goes through to identify people that are selling products that didn't collect sales taxes properly?

Diane: So just as probably most of the sellers listening to this podcast are using data analytics to figure out what should they price their products at, what is a hot product to sell, the states are starting to use data analytics and advanced methods to identify sellers. They've also used methods including subpoenaing; their subpoena power to go to Amazon and ask for the list of the sellers in their states. So we've seen I think about eight or nine states that have done that including New York and Connecticut and North Carolina, Wisconsin, California, Washington. So those are some of the states that have actually gotten that list of those sellers. And we know sellers have gotten those letters from those states saying we think you should be registered.

Joe: Okay, they can figure it out is essentially what we're trying to say here. Let's talk about the risk to the—you said the risk to the seller it's still minimum if you've been collecting where you have physical nexus. So great that's the minimum. Well, what about the person that buys the business? And I'm going to try to say this in simple terms and you tell me, correct me, or lead me back on the right path here.

Diane: Okay.

Joe: Let's say I bought a business. I buy that business for three million dollars and it turns out that you; the seller didn't collect and pay on all the economic nexus that you may have had during your ownership and a few states figure this out and they go after you; your corporation. They're going to go after Diane's brand LLC. First, they're going to try to go after the state after you and if it's an empty—well if the LLC is an empty shell if you ever pierce that LLC by running personal stuff with a business they can then go after you personally for that. And then if you can't pay it on either of those things you're going to go okay well the assets are still being sold, the brand is still out there. I wonder who bought it. Let's go after them. Is that the right path and can they get all the way through to me if they first go after your LLC, can't get money out of the LLC, it's an empty shell or you closed it, okay fine they go after you because you pierced that corporate shell at one point, you're bankrupt, you've got nothing. Can they go after me and if so what's the real risk to me the buyer?

Diane: They can and to clarify just a couple of things. Even without doing anything to pierce the LLC all the states have provisions that allow them to go after the officers, the owners, or responsible parties whether the business has been closed down or not.

Joe: But everything else was I generally on the right path there in terms of the way it would work?

Diane: Correct. They can and there is also provisions that they have that are called successor liabilities. So that means that if they sell the business then they can go after the seller—I'm sorry after the buyer.

Joe: Let's just put a point of clarification on that successor liability, you said sell the business. These are assets sales for the most part. They're buying the assets of the business, not the entity itself. Does that successor liability carry through in that case?

Diane: It does.

Joe: Okay, are they going to go to that successor first or is that going to be the last resort?

Diane: It depends on the state and it also can depend on whether or not the rules were followed. Most of the states have something called a bulk sale notification requirement that applies on the sale of bulk assets. So this is not typically required on a stock deal but it is required on an asset deal. And so if you sell those assets there is a requirement that the state be put on notice that that is happening so that they can do a couple of different things. One they now know that this transaction is occurring. In some states, there might actually be a tax on the transaction itself. The second thing is that it gives the state the opportunity to give what's called the tax clearance certificate. So if they've recently done an audit let's say of the seller they can tell the buyer this is all clear. If there hasn't been a sale made or if God forbid the company has not been registered in the state then they can provide information to the buyer in terms of an amount to put into escrow and withhold from the purchase price.

Joe: Again though I'm trying to just visualize how that heck the state is going to do this. I buy the assets of the business. It's Diane's brand. I go to the state of North Carolina to get a tax clearance certificate or—no that's for the past is that right?

Diane: Correct.

Joe: So I want to start collecting sales taxes on my newly formed corporation for Diane's brands.

Diane: Correct.

Joe: And I do that there's going to—and I actually think I know the answer here. I was going to say how the heck is the state going to know that they were everest passed sales.

Diane: Right.

Joe: There's a questionnaire that I have to answer that have there been past sales. A few things, I mean I've heard some people just say no or whatever, people in authority, people that are experts like you, I've seen attorneys on this bulk sale notification go yeah no we're not doing that. Are these people just flat out wrong or is it—look the key thing here is risk. I think what I'm trying to help people understand and I need you to throw out numbers for me. I'm trying to understand the odds because that's what these sellers and buyers are going to look at because you can't change the past. You can't change what you did four years ago in terms of sales tax collection. In some case, you don't have to because economic nexus didn't exist back then. But what are the odds of this carrying through in this scenario? Again I'm buying your brand. You've been around. You sold four million bucks in the last 12 months. And I know you can't do this everybody calls labor the legend and I remember just after college I was at a temp agency trying to get a job and had to take a typing test.

Diane: Yes.

Joe: And I did it. And I was terrible. Terrible was like 82% accuracy at the time and the guy tells me it was. But I'm like what are you talking about. Like Larry Bird shot 66% from the free throw line and he was a legend. That actually got me the job nothing else; my expertise and anything else nothing. But Larry the Legend got me the odds, percentages; that's what people want to know. So I'm buying it. How much—is this going to keep me up at night or is there like a five or 10% risk here that some of this may carry through?

Diane: So I think it depends on a couple of factors. So I hate to give you a fudged answer but here's a couple.

Joe: I have to put you on the spot. We are recording.

Diane: Yeah. So here's a couple of things that come into play. If the only nexus is economic I think the risk is fairly low. If you have been an FBA seller you've got inventory in the state and you haven't been collecting. I think that risk is significantly higher because there is now ways that the states are getting that information.

Joe: Fairly low is 3% is that what you're talking?

Diane: I would say transactions happening within the first year, we're saying it's probably—you know will the state come after somebody for economic less than 20% chance.

Joe: Okay but first I bought your brand; first I'm going to go after you. First, they're going to go after your LLC then they're going to go after you. If they can't get money from either of those then they're going to come after me. So is that 20% on me or is it 20% first to you and then you're all saying—

Diane: I think it's about 20% that they're going to go and find that an economic seller did not register when they should have; an economic nexus seller.

Joe: And unless you're bankrupt they're going to take money from you first.

Diane: Correct.

Joe: And how do they get that money?

Diane: They will do an audit. So they will look at your books for reference and then they will calculate an assessment.

Joe: And if you can't write them a check you're going to work out a payment program.

Diane: Correct.

Joe: They are attorneys that can negotiate that down.

Diane: Correct.

Joe: All that still applies?

Diane: Yup that would still apply.

Joe: Okay, so economic nexus pretty low.

Diane: Correct.

Joe: Physical nexus fairly high but again even though their sell-through nexus—is that what you call it? There's so many different nexus here. The physical first; they're going to go after you first. The buyers here the concern should be fairly low unless the seller of the business is ultimately going to be filing for bankruptcy and there's no money there, right?

Diane: Correct. And how you would get caught as you said when you're filling out your registration application for your business because now you're going to be compliant. One of the questions that is on there is did you buy this business from anybody else. And that's on I think virtually every state application. And that's how it would be identified. Now if you choose to leave that blank the applications are signed under penalty of perjury. Although I have never seen a state actually pursue perjury charges on somebody that answered the questionnaire incorrectly; I got to advise you that that's what it says.

Joe: Sure. Okay, and we are 35 minutes in and generally we want to keep this short. Honestly, I feel like I could talk to you about this for another 35 minutes but I don't dare because the listeners would just drop right off a cliff. So Sales Tax Institute, Yetter Tax, what resources; we talked about them at the beginning and I was writing down—I can't even read my own notes, what resources are you making available on the length that we're providing. You're giving us a link on the QoP podcast so we know it's there and you're providing some specific resources for anybody listening. What are those?

Diane: Correct. So we're going to make it easy for your listeners Joe. We're going to give you a specific link, SalesTaxInstitute.com/quiet-light-podcast and we're going to load all of these great resources that we talked about right there so it'll be one place that your listeners can go to. And on there we're going to give them the ability to download our white paper that talks all about these different kinds of nexuses and what you need to do. We're going to give them the link to what we call our remote seller nexus chart which will include all the different types of nexus; click-through affiliate which is common ownership and agencies doing things on your behalf, the economic nexus, the marketplace nexus, and the one that we didn't have time to get into which is the awful notice and reporting which is when you don't collect tax. So that chart will be on there. We're going to have a chart for the economic nexus which is all the states and the different thresholds by state, their actual effective dates, what dollars do you include in doing that threshold calculation. We're going to give you a link to one of our greatest FAQs about what is nexus that has a little video about all of those nexus types explaining what they are. And then we also offer a service called our Wayfair Risk Analysis. We can take your data and go through and do the analysis to figure out what your risk is as well as where should you be right.

Joe: I love that. I hate that we're at the end of the podcast for that part of it because a lot of people just want to have this done for them. So you can do a risk analysis as part of—

Diane: Absolutely.

Joe: And do they—is that through Yetter Tax or the Sales Tax; since it'd actually to be through the link but look people listen and then they type it in. So if they go to is it Yetter Tax would they be able to figure out that analysis?

Diane: The easiest thing to do is go to the SalesTaxInstitute.com and then click on the consultation button.

Joe: I got it.

Diane: Then you will see a link to our Wayfair Risk Analysis there.

Joe: Alright, Diane you know your stuff. You are a sales tax nerd. I see it. I'm not insulting you. I see that on your Twitter handle. Thank you for being such a nerd and understanding this and sharing the knowledge with everyone here. Ignorance is not bliss. Learn about sales taxes because if you don't it's going to come up and bite you somewhere unpleasant and that's in your wallet. Thank you for your time, Diane. I greatly appreciate it.

Diane: Thank you, Joe. It's been a pleasure.

Links and Resources:

• https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/quiet-light-podcast
• https://www.salestaxinstitute.com
• http://www.yettertax.com/
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/dianeyetter
• https://twitter.com/yettertax?lang=en
• Economic Nexus State Guide: https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/resources/economic-nexus-state-guide
• Remote Seller Chart: https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/resources/remote-seller-nexus-chart
• Wayfair Risk Analysis: https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/wayfair-risk-analysis
• Sales Tax Software Vendors: https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/resources/tax-software
• FAQ: What do I need to know about the Wayfair Case and Economic Nexus?: https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/sales_tax_faqs/wayfair-economic-nexus
• FAQ: What is nexus? : https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/sales_tax_faqs/what_is_nexus
• Whitepaper: Nexus after Wayfair – What you need to Know: https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/resources/five-things-to-understand-nexus-whitepaper
• Sales Tax 101 On-Demand Webinar: https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/sales-tax-education/sales-tax-101-on-demand-webinar
• Sales Tax Jumpstart Live Online Class: https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/sales-tax-education/sales-tax-jumpstart
• Consulting Service: http://www.yettertax.com/about-us-services/

I don't think there is a topic we're more passionate yet equally in the dark about as CRO. For every dollar a business spends on Conversion Rate Optimization (CRO) they get nine back – which is a staggering statistic. You immediately see ROI if you use a CRO expert who is good at what they do. There is an entire user journey that happens with CRO, and those businesses that embark on the journey can massively grow their business quickly.

Jon MacDonald is the CEO and founder of The Good, a Conversion Rate Optimization firm. The Good uses data science to help brands turn their traffic into customers by tracking everything on their site and using the data they collect to come up with solutions for growth. Some of the world's largest companies convert their website visitors into buyers through their services. Jon is here to talk to about this little known powerhouse toolkit for both buyer and sellers.

Episode Highlights:

• What Jon looks at before starting a CRO project for a client.
• Where CRO fits in for buyers and sellers in the e-commerce space.
• The four key areas of data to be looking at to optimize e-commerce conversions.
• Why CRO gets ignored so often.
• Helpful dashboard elements for the three types of online businesses: e-commerce, SaaS, content-based sites and how those elements improve business.
• How microgoals can add incrementally change your flow.
• What CRO advice Jon has for someone who may be getting ready to sell a business.
• Where The Good gets their information and what they do with it.
• AB testing tools Jon recommends for a new business owner getting started.
• How much time an entrepreneur should spend studying and preparing for a good CRO approach.
• How CRO practice can increase asset value exponentially for sellers and buyers.
• The benefit of working with an outsourced CRO team.

Transcription:

Joe: Mark, one of the things that we see happen often is people—we go to these events that we sponsor, meet some amazing entrepreneurs, and sometimes in little pockets of them you hear people talking about their top line revenue. It's really not what the focus should be. In many cases, it should be about their gross profit, their processes, and what they do to optimize and maximize their bottom line revenue. Because ultimately that's what the value of these businesses are based on. And as I understand you had Jon MacDonald on from The Good talking about CRO; Conversion Rate Optimization and how important it is to drive that up and what a great return on investment that can be.

Mark: Yeah, that's right. I don't think that there's a topic I'm more passionate about yet equally horrible at than I am CRO; Conversion Rate Optimization. It's such a phenomenal field and when we look at what you can do using CRO techniques and methodology with a business it's rather remarkable. In fact, Jon quoted me a statistic in here that for every dollar a business invests in conversion rate optimization on average they get $9 back which is really, really amazing. I know that in the past I've hired a conversion rate optimization expert. And they cost a lot of money, right? So I was paying out I think like $2,000 a month. But you know what the first thing they did was? They saved me like $6,000 a month in advertising costs.

Joe: That's incredible.

Mark: I mean it's a net win. You're immediately seeing an ROI if you have somebody good at what they do. And when we think about CRO oftentimes we think okay we're going to change the color of this button bar, we're going to change the title on this, we're going to increase our sign-ups. What Jon and I talked about quite a bit more is the fact that CRO is much, much bigger than this. There is an entire customer journey, there's an entire user journey here, and there are all sorts of points along the way where this journey can be optimized and can be made more efficient for our clients. I know I've talked to clients in the past who have grown businesses massively by just spending literally years doing this and their traffic doesn't substantially change. But their revenue changes and their bottom line earnings change as well. It's a discipline that most of us ignore; low hanging fruit for almost all of our businesses. We should be doing it. Jon and I got to talk about some of the methodologies that you need to implement in order to really get going with some CRO optimization of any business for that matter.

Joe: I think it's going to be a fascinating podcast. I'm going to listen to it myself. Before we jump to that folks be sure to tell us what the movie quote is. Send us a note so we can give you a shout out on the podcast. Alright, let's jump to it.

Mark: Jon thanks so much for joining me.

Jon: Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

Mark: If you could can you provide a quick background on yourself to all the listeners?

Jon: Sure. So I am CEO and founder of The Good. We are a conversion rate optimization firm. Now what that means is we help brands to convert more of their existing website traffic into customers. So we do that through data science. Helping brands to track every click and movement that's happening on their site and using that data to understand where people are dropping off in the process, why they're not converting, what's engaging and not being engaged with, and how to solve those problems.

Mark: That's great. CRO is something of a—I wouldn't say a hobby of mine, I'm not very good at it but it's something that I'm fascinated by. I love the idea of being able to grow and sometimes pretty significantly grow a business without adding more traffic and scrapping forward for that more traffic but basically by improving that customer experience to the point where everything just kind of smoothens out and it just opens up more traffic internally but with the revenue of course; the conversions and everything else. Now in my understanding with your firm you guys have done some work with private equity firms as well that are coming into an acquisition of a web-based company and want to find some of those opportunities. Can you talk a little bit about that and maybe some of the scenarios that you've looked at there?

Jon: Yeah. So typically when you're buying an e-com company the first thing you're looking to do is optimize the return on the investment you've just made. And that's why a lot of folks end up with us. Typically these brands have a lot of traffic coming in already. They're spending a bunch of money to drive traffic to the site but perhaps that's just not converting at the level they'd liked or they're not seeing as high of a ROAs or return on ad spend as they would like to see and they see that that's an opportunity for optimization. And that's typically how we end up starting those conversations. It's not unfamiliar with us. A few brands we've worked with have increased their conversion rates, gotten their ROIs up and then made an exit right after. So it happens on both sides. Brands who are looking to make a purchase and or have made a purchase come into us to help them to kind of optimize a little bit and then also companies who are looking to improve their site and optimize it as they get ready to sell and want to increase the value of their company.

Mark: I often think that the CRO portion of a marketing mix is one of the items I think it's ignored the most often and is often one of the lowest bits of hanging fruit. And one of the things I think people forget about; I forget about it myself but CRO actually has kind of a double whammy effect for you, right? I ran an experiment on another business that I owned outside of Quiet Light Brokerage for getting people to sign up and I know my numbers pretty well. I know that every person that signs up even though they're signing up for free the value of that client is about $10, right. So I said okay I want to increase these free sign-ups more. But the result was I did increase the sign-ups, I did increase that conversion rate pretty significantly but the other benefit of that is that my cost of acquisition dropped. So not only was I getting more out of what was being sent to me but my advertising dollars dropped at the same time. And so I had this double effect of seeing an increase in my ROIs on both sides just from focusing on one thing. When you're talking to somebody who is preparing to sell; let's say it's an e-commerce business, what are some of the areas that you start to look to see where can you—what are you sort of tracking at a CRO project?

Jon: Well, the first thing is are they tracking the right data? True conversion optimization should not be about going down a checklist of best practices. You can find those and Google those online and I can tell you that really the most effective way to optimize a site is to base it on every click and movement of your specific sites visitors and to make data back decisions on those actions that are being taken. So the best way to do that is to make sure you're tracking the right data. Now, of course, you want to follow GDPR and all of the other privacy regulations that are in place. So all the types of data that you really should be tracking are done in aggregate meaning it's not personally identifiable information. And really you don't need personal identifiable information. But there are really four key areas of data that you should be looking at. The first of course is Analytics. If you're looking to sell you're likely going to have Analytics and the buyer is likely going to dive into those Analytics. So if you're looking at something like Google Analytics out of the box let's be honest here it's meant to help you buy more Google Ads. So it's not that helpful in terms of optimizing your site. Now the best way to do that is to build some dashboards in Google Analytics that are more focused on conversions. And also make sure that you're tracking the right events on your site to get that data in. So that's one of the first places we look. The second pieces of data are interactions on your site in terms of content. So looking at things like heat maps; where are mouse movements happening around the site, click maps where are people clicking on a page, perhaps they're often—we almost always find that people are clicking on things that aren't clickable, and that's a good indicator that they should be. So it could be as simple as that. You know we also want to look at scroll maps; how far down the page are they going. We do eye tracking as well to understand what people are looking at and how long they're looking at that content. Lastly—well third I should say you want to do what's called user testing. So we've just talked about all these quantitative pieces of data that really tell you what people are doing. But it's really hard to get the why behind that from all of that data we just talked about. So user testing comes in and helps us understand why. Now, this is where we send people to the site who match the ideal customer profile and we ask them to complete tasks. And while they're completing those tasks we are recording their screen and their audio and we also have trained these people ahead of time to talk out loud about the experience that they're having. So they're going through a site and they're saying hey I'm trying to find this page and I can't find it in the navigation or understand how to get to that content that I'm looking for, I don't understand what the value proposition is here, or just common struggles that they might be having. And that really kind of coincides with the numerical data to tell us not only what they've done but also why they're doing that and it gives us some context behind that. And we really we do what's called remote unmoderated user testing. And what that is is a software tool we use usertesting.com most often. And what that means is it's a piece of software that lives on their home computer that allows us to collect all this data so they can do it in the comfort of their own environment as opposed to somebody standing over their shoulder. Now we've done both. We've been optimizing sites for over 10 years now and we've done both. And what we found is that we get much better data when its remote unmoderated. The people are comfortable and they don't feel pressure to come up with something on the spot and always be telling us what they're thinking. We just find it naturally happens when it's remote and unmoderated. So that works a lot better. The last piece of data is A-B testing or multivariate testing. This is where you say you have 100 people coming to a site, you can segment those visitors and show 50 the current version of a page or even small change on the site, maybe moving content around on a page, or adjusting some headlines things of that sort. And then you would show 50 the alternate page and you test some metrics out of that to understand which one is doing better; the page that exists or the changes that have been made. And we can get really large tests like changing entire pages or we can go really, really small like just changing one headline and seeing what the differences would be and then stacking a lot of those tests and the variations of those tests to truly understand how to optimize each step of that funnel again based on data. So instead of just guessing and launching those changes with this piece of data you're actually letting the consumer's actions, your specific sites visitor's actions and tell you what should be done to permanently change on your site.

Mark: Okay. So I think that explanation was just great. I love the framework that you set up here but I think you just explained why CRO gets ignored so often. And that is there is a lot of stuff to set up here and to configure and I just let's start right at the beginning with Analytics. You're right right out of the box how useful is Analytics. It's interesting. You get to see how many people are coming to your site. You can see what pages are popular and some decent information out of the gate. But really Analytics starts to blossom when you start building dashboards and segments and everything else. But getting into that; I mean that's kind of a discipline in and of itself.

Jon: Of course.

Mark: I know we could probably talk about this all day and different dashboards for different types of businesses, what are some things that are some useful elements with a dashboard that somebody might want to consider building? And I want to break this up into maybe three different types of sites. And if you don't work with any of these types of sites that's fine, just let me know. But e-commerce would be one, SaaS would be another, and then content-based sites that are really looking more for that user engagement and reading and how much are they digesting the information. So what are some dashboards that you would recommend people look into for each of these?

Jon: Well, there's a couple built into Google Analytics that get ignored pretty quickly. On all three of these sites it would be helpful. But the first is page flow. What is the flow that people are taking through the site? And most people ignore this because in Google Analytics the view is one where it shows the funnels but then has lines drawn between them and it looks extremely complicated at first. So most people see that, they get overwhelmed, and they leave and don't really pay attention to the data. But there's so much rich data there you can dive into. And you don't have to do anything other than have the snippet on your site. So it's not requiring you to set anything else up necessarily. So that's a great place to start. For e-com businesses we often find one tidbit; a lot of companies no matter what their size is when they first come to us one of the first things we always check is do they have the e-commerce tracking engaged. It's one button to turn on and off. So many brands don't have that turned on and they lose so much rich data that Google automatically starts sorting through and looking for. So for e-com just having that turned on could be amazing. And it's so easy. Now in terms of metrics that we're looking for on e-commerce conversion rate in terms of to purchase but also what are the other metrics that you're looking for? We call them micro conversions; things that you know people are doing that influence that purchase. Is it signing up for an email? Is it where they visit certain pages on your site? So we know that if they are visiting or even just like a great instance of this is if they're visiting a product detail page but then they click to read more of the user reviews. That's always a great indicator because what we find is consumers who read reviews convert much higher. Because often consumers are going to trust the content that's in reviews much more than what the brand even says about their products because it's coming from people like them. They also; for a clothing site for instance or shoe site, it's really helpful because they will use that to better understand sizing, especially relative sizing. So a medium runs a little larger you're probably going to want a small things of that sort. That's really, really helpful for people who are really there to dive deeper and answer specific questions that are all buying questions.

Mark: Let me stop you on that real quick because let's say that you start measuring these micro goals. What does that give you? I mean I would imagine a lot of the people that are taking those actions already have a high user intent.

Jon: Right.

Mark: In my head I'm thinking okay let's say sizing options, you said I want to increase the number of micro-goals of people checking out the different sizing options. Does that really increase each individual user's intent or you're really just more making the flow easier for those that are already there?

Jon: Both. If you're finding that out of 100 visitors that 50 of them are looking at sizing and of that 50, 25 convert you really want to try to influence that metric. So if you know that people are looking for sizing then make that information surface at higher so it's easier to find. Now people only visit websites for two reasons. This is outside of Facebook or anywhere that you're just trying to maybe perhaps spend some time; kill some time. Now they are there because they have a pain or a need and they think that your website can help solve that pain or need. And two once they realize that it can or they believe that it can, they want to do research on how to convert as quickly and easily as possible. And that means that they've done that research and now they're ready to purchase. So you need to make those two things as easy to do as possible. Now it sounds pretty simplistic but understanding as you go deeper on those what people are looking to research and then surfacing that information as high as possible is really important. So making that as easy to find and do that research. So if you know that people who convert always are looking for sizing information but they have to go into the reviews to find it. That's a problem. So instead make it easier for people to understand what size they should wear. And if that's the case they're going to convert much easier. And then when they're ready to convert it'll make that checkout flow, that conversion process as easy as possible. And when you look at lead generation sites which is the second one of this one that you've mentioned, it's the same thing with form completions. We often work with companies who have made it very easy for somebody to come to the site and do research about what particular products or offering that that company has that aligns with their need. But we also see at times the consumers come to the site and they're looking at the home page and the value proposition is not clearly stated. And so how many times have you been to a B2B service page website and you look at it and you said I have no idea what these people do. So that can be a big challenge; just understanding is the consumer in the right place and allowing them to do that research. But then once they get to the form they're asking for a ton of information that isn't really necessary at that first step. So they might be asking how many employees do you have, or what industry are you in; all these things that could have been filtered prior to them filling out a form by just saying this product is best for people who have this many employees, this much revenue, this industry, and things of that sort. So trying to help people understand if they're in the right place and how to convert as quickly and easily as possible can apply to both e-com and lead gen.

Mark: That's helpful. Let's go on to one of the other ones here and that's the scroll maps and click data. A, where do you get this sort of information? Do you have any servers that you recommend? And then B, once you get in what do you do with this information once you start to get it?

Jon: Yeah. So Hotjar is likely your best fit. Now there are tons of different heat mapping softwares out there right now. Crazy Egg is another good one. There's a few of us who—we find Hotjar has the most reliable data and also for the cost has the best benefits. So I believe it's about $9 a month and it's totally worth the data you get back for $9; easily a large return on your investment there. Now, what should you do with that data? Well, Hotjar will let you track again all the mass movements that happen on your site and give you a heat map of those. Now for those people who aren't familiar with the heat map it just shows you from red to—and then cools off from there; so red, yellow, green, blue, and then the lack of colors where people didn't use their mouse at all on a page. So it allows you to really look at that and say where are people interacting. Now, a quick tidbit on this; on desktop, your eye will follow your cursor. So heat mapping is not so much about the cursor movement as it is about a good indicator of where people are looking and what they're engaging with on your page. Understanding just where a cursor is going on a page is not as helpful. So that's a better way we think to look at it is what content are people engaging with. And that's what's really helpful there. Now, what can you do with that data? Perhaps you find that there is a piece of data that you had found earlier that people really engage with every single time they purchase. Well it's really helpful to surface that content up higher on the page and then track whether or not people are engaging with that over time; so testing that by understanding what content to engage and moving that content to a different area of the page and then looking at the heat map to see if it's being engaged with.

Mark: So let's move on then to A-B testing and this is a personal pet peeve of mine because all the tools out there just feel—at least that I've used feel expensive and kind of shoddy and maybe I'm not using them right. Are there tools that you particularly recommend? What do you think about let's say Google Optimize as a free option there? And we'll start with that. I would also like to get into setting up experiments that actually make sense.

Jon: Right, of course.

Mark: Let's talk first about the tools.

Jon: So there are a numerous number of tools for optimization as you mentioned. It's pretty common now to try to sell a whole optimization platform; so one tool that can do everything. The great thing about Google Optimize is that it doesn't do that. It focuses just on running those tests. And it also integrates extremely well with Analytics so you can pull segments out of Analytics that you've set up and run tests just for those segments. Now it is free and it does have some limitations in the sense that you can run a limited number of tests at the same time. There are some ways to get around that. I would be happy to chat about that with anybody at some point but really the idea here is Google Optimize has come a really long way over the past year. It has in terms of pure testing the same functionality as a platform like VWO or Visual Website Optimizer which is another one that I would tend to recommend if you want to get over the number of tests limit that Optimize has VWO is a great tool. It works extremely well for the testing side. It has a whole bunch of other functionality that at The Good we don't typically use. But if you're looking for a full platform it could be okay. And then if you're in the enterprise space Optimizely is really the gold standard. They were the first really solid tool. They made a shift about two years ago to focus exclusively on the enterprise side. So we still have some clients that are on their legacy plans from five to six years ago that are paying 200 bucks a month. They don't offer anything like that anymore. It's now probably closer to 10,000 a month just for their platform. But if you are looking to optimize every experience; your mobile experience, and your app experience, and your desktop or web experience as well Optimizely is really where you'd want to play. But you need to have the budget and the traffic levels especially. This is another thing and I think most companies tend to want to jump into running testing but they don't have enough traffic to do it. And they sign up for something like VWO and start paying the fees for the platform and they aren't seeing the results very quickly. That's where it can get frustrating. You really need to make sure you have enough traffic to be able to see statistically significant results in a meaningful timeframe to get the return on that investment.

Mark: What would you recommend for sites that have low traffic amounts?

Jon: I would recommend playing around with Google Optimize but running bigger tests. So what do I mean by bigger tests? Try changing an entire page content; don't just change one piece of content on a page. So the bigger the test the quicker you're typically going to see some results positive or negative. Now it's hard to get fine-grained but testing even bigger tests like that you will see increases in the key metrics that you should be tracking like conversion rate, average order value, things of that sort that really are going to drive impactful meaningful improvement for your brand.

Mark: Yeah, that's great. I've noticed the same thing in the testing that I've done there where—and this leads to the next segment that I wanted to talk about that and that is saying that meaningful tests where the whole sale page changes. I just ran a test on another business I own where we did a whole sale page difference and the lift was significant. It was almost definitely the conversion rate on a completely different page design. When you're setting up a new test especially if you're coming in cold and say that you bought a business and you're now working on different ways to be able to grow that business that you just acquired, where are some places that you would typically start with testing? Let's assume that there is enough traffic there to be able to run more of this fine-grained sort of tests. Would you recommend some of these bigger tests to begin with or maybe a more nuanced approach?

Jon: I would typically recommend a little more nuanced approach that is based on the results from that user testing. So by starting; I mentioned four areas and I mentioned the A-B testing last because the other three are really going to help you determine what you should be testing. And that's almost as important as running tests at all. So if you are going; there are so many brands that we see that just sign up for these platforms to run tests and start running tests and they just randomly cherry pick ideas to run but they don't have any hypotheses behind them or data to back those up. So really again understanding the data has to come first so that you can make some data back decisions about what to test. Now, what's going to be impactful? I'll tell you that if you start reading general articles online about testing the first thing they're going to say is things like button colors, or maybe a headline change, or image change. Those very rarely actually move the needle. So you need to find that balance between a whole site or a page change and changing one small element on the page because it's in the middle where you're really going to see the results. But also the best way to be thinking about this is the testing needs to be a three or six-month plan. So that doesn't mean that you should expect one test to run that long but you should be thinking okay I'm running this test to make what learning do I want out of that test; positive or negative change? That's fine but you should always be learning something. In fact when a test doesn't have the outcome that we want here at The Good or that we were expecting I should say we don't call it a failure; we call it a learner. Because we're always learning something out of that. That will influence what the next test is that we want to run. And then you continue to stair step that. Conversion optimization should really be thought of as an iterative compounding effect over time. There's nothing that you're going to change on your site that is going to double your conversion rate overnight short of massive discounting. And I just call that margin drain. That's not an optimization. So you really want to be thinking about this in small incremental gains. That each test is going to help you get that will have a compounding effect over those three to six months. And so impactful tests are ones that you know are building the foundation for a larger change that you would like to see.

Mark: Talking to about this it seems so clear that you're setting this up into almost two distinct steps, right? The bulk of what you suggest of these four suggestions really relies and rests first on having good data and a good data framework for understanding your site and your business and knowing what sort of metrics you want. And once those metrics are set up then you can take a look and say okay well let's look at this or what would happen if we were to change this micro goal? Does this micro goal really have a correlation with revenue or is it just something that we're kind of seeing right now? Maybe there is no correlative effect. Maybe we can increase a micro goal and it doesn't change anything at all. But I think the challenge then becomes not necessarily how do you run a really great A-B test but how do you set up a really good framework of data and data collection and those dashboards as well. What advice would you give to an entrepreneur who's thinking about their business and saying okay I know I need to get data on my business, I know I have Analytics set up maybe I turn on the e-commerce tracking but I've not ever created segments. I don't really know how to use segments; 10,000-foot view, what's a way that we can instruct the entrepreneur here to just start understanding what they need to start setting up for a good data framework?

Jon: Well I mentioned the other three areas besides A-B testing and you don't have to go super deep on those. I know there's—you could. As you mentioned earlier we could spend a whole hour just talking about each of those individually perhaps. I think you need to start somewhere but just having that data tracking in place and then paying attention to it; look at it once a week spend; set an hour side on your calendar, just spend an hour once a week looking at that data. You will start to see trends. You will start to see things that help you to better understand how people are engaging with your website. And just giving that that hour per week will put you miles ahead of the competition because you're going to start to see those trends and the actions that people are taking on your site. And you'll start to have empathy for how they use your site. Now I often like to say that it's really hard to read the label from inside the jar. So many site owners or brands or e-com managers what they do is they build the site and all the content and the navigation for them because they know the product. But what happens if somebody comes in via Google to search in a topic. Google thought that site might be the best answer they send them there. They're missing all of that knowledge about the products they sell. So when they go to the navigation and if it's not set up appropriately the consumer has no idea what they're looking at or how to figure out what product is the best one for them. So that's another way that user testing can really kind of help. It's brief empathy for the end user and helps you see it from that perspective as opposed to somebody who built the site or is on the site every single day. So I think two things; one, just have the data and look at it and you'll start to build up that empathy. And that's really going to help you understand what you should test and where you should go from there. Then secondly you can really start to dive deeper. You can then say oh I want to run scroll tracking on these pages because I'm finding that people aren't reading this type of content that's further down the page and I want to verify that. So you start to post questions. It's not about the data; it's really about asking the right questions once you have that data in place.

Mark: You're echoing exactly what I heard at Traffic & Conversion this past year. I went to a CRO talk and one of the bits of advice that he gave was to start with the questions that you want answered because then the reports will build themselves. If your question is how many people are signing up for this email list and then taking a second action well now you know the report that you need to build there is a report that shows just that information. The other thing that you're saying that I think is fantastic and this is the trend in marketing in 2019 and frankly it started I think as early as 2017 and has been building steam and that is this personalization; both of the user experience but also in the way that we think as far as marketers and the internet is no longer just a big cold faceless place. Let's start putting a face to those numbers that we're seeing in Analytics and understand those are real people, real eyeballs and what is their experience like. And what you said you have some empathy for the user and what they're going through because then you can start asking those questions and building the reports. And then once you build the reports, you've answered the questions, now you can start forming the thesis of okay this is what we're seeing as far as the answer to this question. Now finally once we get all this in place lets A-B test. Does that summarize it?

Jon: Yes; very, very well.

Mark: Awesome. Alright, let's talk about wins.

Jon: Yes.

Mark: I could do your job.

Jon: I'm looking forward to it.

Mark: I know that for a fact. Let's talk about wins. Let's talk about some of the—without getting and divulging clients or anything like that, let's talk about this is what you want to put on your site as far as the testimonial because it's eye-popping and then also the realistic sort of wins that you would see say over six to 12 months from a CRO campaign.

Jon: Yeah. You know on average we see about a 9:1 return on investment. So for every dollar that's put into conversion optimization on average, you're going to see about a $9 increase in revenue. Now there is not one single metric that you can do that's going to have a bigger impact on your site than focusing on conversions. But I think the industry of conversion rate optimization gets shoehorned often into that one factor which is conversion. We've talked about a lot of different metrics today that really need to be improved and optimized and that all goes back into conversion optimization as a whole. Of course, average order value, cart abandonment rate, we talked a lot about ROAs and return on investment of ad spend. I think in a lot of that is what needs to happen there. Now specific wins, I have a bunch of case studies up on our site. They're public so I'm happy to talk about some of those. For instance, Easton Baseball; if you don't know who Easton Baseball is they make aluminum baseball bats mainly and softball bats. About 99% of college swings are done with an Easton baseball bat. They pretty much own baseball bats for Little League. And if you're a Little League player you're going to use one of their bats. Now, having empathy for the consumer; what we found when we came into their site was you go to their product page and it would be a wall of bats. Now if you imagine what a bat looks like online and you see a whole bunch of them. You have no idea what the differences are, right? And they're just maybe different colors but you really don't know because you can't feel the weight difference or really see how the size differences of the bats online that well. And especially if you're a parent with a kid in Little League, you have no idea what bat you should be buying. And we did a bunch of user research and what we found was that consumers were coming to the site to buy a bat for their kid and they would buy the bat take it to practice and had spent a couple of hundred dollars on this bat and then the umpire tells them they're not allowed to swing with that bat. Now the reason is that all these different Little Leagues have certifications for their bats and if their bat does not have that certification stamp on it you can't use it. Also, either your kid swings for the fences or he's just trying to get on base. And there are different types of hitters, and different bats fit with different types of hitters. There are also different price points that parents want to spend. So there's some that might want to spend $100, some are willing to spend 500. It really varies. Using just those three metrics what we found was that so many parents are buying the wrong bats that they were getting frustrated and there was a high return rate. They were calling customer service quite a bit. Well, what we did after learning all of that is we built up bat finder. So instead of having parents navigate through all these bats and look at all of them and spend time trying to figure that out, they simply just answer three questions and those three questions kicked out three or four bats for them. And so these are the ones you should really look at. Now once you got to those bat pages they often had; Easton had put in a ton of technical terms that were branded around what the bats did. So I can't remember the names exactly but instead of just saying this bat reduces sting because with an aluminum bat if you hit it really well and you're hitting for the fences you can sting your hands really bad. And Easton has some wonderful technology that eliminated that bat sting and still let you get the great pop of the bat to hit it over the fence for a home run. Well, what we found was they had branded that term instead of just saying it reduces bat sting they came up with some random term for that. And consumers didn't know what it meant. So we helped them solve that problem. And that was found through user testing and just having empathy for what the consumer is going through. So we fixed those two things on their site and they saw over 600% increase in revenue year over year and their conversion rates skyrocketed. I think it was 187%. And you know when you think about it just having a little bit of empathy and making those two small changes can have such a big impact. And that's really what conversion rate is about. It's understanding what people are doing, what they're not doing, and how they're engaging, and using that data to then inform what should be changed and tested on a site.

Mark: Yeah. And just to put this in terms of acquisitions; bringing it back to really the subject of this podcast here, I want people to think about this in terms of what I mentioned earlier on the podcast. If you're seeing a 600% increase in your revenue which is phenomenal you're also seeing a reduction in your cost of advertising to acquire a client which means your bottom line margin is actually probably improving more than that 600%. And that's an assumption on my part. But let's for the sake of argument just say that it also is increasing by 600% at a minimum, it might be even increasing more. And now you're taking the multiple approach of maybe for an e-commerce business 3, 3.5, maybe 4 and you can start seeing how much you're growing the asset value of a business that you own; maybe you acquired or you're preparing to sell. You are seeing significant gains in that asset value of what you're hanging onto to the point where the numbers really become kind of silly to even say it because it doesn't sound believable. But that's the low hanging fruit of CRO is the money that you said 9:1 investment to payback ratio. That's phenomenal and for preparing to sell or buying and trying to grow a business asset value you're not only getting that 9:1 you're getting the multiple on top of that as well. That's phenomenal.

Jon: Yeah. And I've specifically mentioned Easton because it's a public knowledge but after about 18 months to two years after we helped them optimize their site and then moved in and help them optimize their mobile as well for even larger gains there they did sell to another private equity firm and had a very good return on their investment there overall and that was almost entirely fueled by the digital side and the effort they'd all put in there.

Mark: That's awesome. Where can people learn more about you and more about your company?

Jon: Sure. Yeah. So The Good you can find us online at TheGood.com. That's just TheGood.com and you can sign up for our insights there. So if you liked a lot of the tidbits and helpful tactics I talked about today we do produce one great article per week about learning. There are no sales pitches involved it's truly just educational content about conversion optimization; things that you can take home and do to your site and start thinking in this way. We fully recognize that it is really hard for one person to have all of the skill sets at their company to do conversion optimization. I think you talked about this earlier when you said hey you just mentioned all these things and that's the challenge most people have around optimization. It's true. It's really hard for one person to do all of that. And so we try to help educate as much as we can around all of this type of things. But TheGood.com is the best way to get a hold of us. Feel free to email me directly if you have questions. I'm happy to answer questions that come my way it's just [email protected]. And I do try to read and respond to every email. So I will do my best.

Mark: Yeah. That's great. And as far as the task list, I mean you're exactly right. The fact is CRO is a mix of being somewhat of a data scientist and there's also a technical side to it as well being able to get all the integrations right and then there's also the creative side as well to understand how to really understand the user testing and how that empathy and then be creative with the tests and ask the right questions. It's very difficult to find somebody who can master all three of those skills and those abilities. So working with an outsourced team; I think CRO is one of those things where doing it alone is probably not the best approach unless you're just really, really some sort of a renaissance man who can have these multiple disciplines. Thank you so much for coming on Jon. This has been an awesome discussion I'd begin maybe because I just love CRO but I appreciate you coming on and sharing some of the tips.

Jon: Well, thank you so much for having me, Mark. I really do appreciate it.

Links and Resources:

The Good

Jon's Email

Hotjar

Optimizely

Getting his start in e-commerce proved to be a series of false starts for today's guest, Jaryd Krause. While he knew that getting away from a career in plumbing and having the opportunity to travel the world was the ultimate goal, it took him some time to figure out how to get there.

After several failed attempts, Jaryd realized he was not approaching his e-commerce career the right way and still had a lot to learn. Armed with the realization that what they say about ninety percent of all startups failing is true, he figured out that he needed to go in and buy an established business that had successfully passed the startup phase. He started to buy businesses and be so successful at it that people began asking him for advice on doing the same. Nowadays, Jaryd is running his businesses and coaching people on how to buy websites and earn passive income while following their dreams.

Episode Highlights:

• How Jaryd got his start and some of his past failures in e-commerce.
• Where and how he found the first business that he bought.
• The advantage of looking for listings with professionals brokers.
• Some mistakes Jaryd has seen with buyers he's advised.
• How he guides buyers to align the business they are looking to buy with their personality and past experience.
• How Jaryd teaches his clientele to become attractive buyers.
• Advice he would give to someone who is coming into the e-commerce realm for the first time.
• Trends in e-commerce and where Jaryd sees the opportunity for growth.
• One last tip Jaryd would give to someone just starting out in e-commerce

Transcription:

Joe: Hey Mark one of the things we need to do is to plug the movie intro. Folks if you know that what that movie was shoot us a note and we will give you an audio mention. Chris our content director is big on that. It's awesome and no cheating though. We've had a few folks that admitted that they looked it up on Google. Don't do that just send us a note by listening.

Mark: Yeah, I think both folks have actually guessed right.

Joe: Yes.

Mark: I'm looking at you, Mike Nuñez.

Joe: Alright, listen. You had Jaryd Krause on the podcast talking about something that we talk about all the time but it's good to hear it from someone else. We technically as Jason will always say our client is the seller. We have a contractual obligation to the seller. But as I always say to buyers look I can't help my client unless I help you as well; the buyer, and constantly having conversations with buyers on the approach to buy a business. It's great to hear from someone else. That's what Steven does. You say he's from Australia. You had a—not Steven; Jaryd, you had a conversation with him about this and his job. His process is actually teaching entrepreneurs or people that might be from the corporate world how to buy an online business is that right?

Mark: That's right. So he does coaching in this and obviously, he has a lot of background experience in this as well. He started out buying smaller sites and kind of building up. And we just talked—had a conversation about his views on buying which is I think fascinating for us to do in our role because you and I have some pretty set ideas as to the best way to go about buying online businesses. We do this from the seat that we sit in which is working on behalf of sellers and representing them. But like you said we can't do our job well unless buyers are also doing the job well and a good deal; a deal that's good for a buyer is oftentimes a good deal that's good for our client as well. Because if everybody wins, everybody's happy afterwards, everybody's making money; that's the goal, right? So Jaryd and I talked a lot about some of the things he looks at. What does he look at and what does he coach when he's teaching people how to make that first acquisition. So some of the things we talked about are like what are the struggles that people run into? How to get over this imposter syndrome that some buyers might feel when they're coming into an acquisition like I'm really not the same class of this guy that built this business. And he gives some really nice practical tips on how to overcome some of those problems and address those head-on. So I want to get right into this episode here and just listen to what Jaryd has to say and this conversation. And just by the way a huge asterisk, here I apologize. My microphone wasn't working properly on this. I thought I was recording through my regular podcast mic and was just going through my laptop mic so it's going to be awful. But here's the good news. I'm not really the person that you need to listen to. You need to listen to Jaryd. He's got the good information in this episode.

Joe: Well, let's get right to it then.

Mark: Alright, Jaryd thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. I don't know if you've listened to many of our previous podcasts but we typically have our guests introduce themselves. I figured you know yourself quite better than I know you. So tell us a little bit about yourself.

Jaryd: Thanks so much for having me on. I really appreciate it. So with about myself I'm from the Gold Coast, Australia. I love surfing and that was my goal to start making money online so I could travel around the world and surf. I got started in this a few years ago now and I started buying one business and then I bought another one and another one. And the reason I came into this is because I tried to start my own websites Mark and I just sucked. And I failed a fair few times. And I started failing forward and came across that saying 90% of startups fail. Well, it's actually the studies being done with that one. So I realized if 90% of startups fail why don't I go and buy a website that's past that 90% failure rate so I'm not just struggling and struggling and struggling. And I did that. I taught myself how to buy a website and then I got a little bit of help from different mentors along the way. And then I bought one and another one and it kept growing and eventually replaced my income to a point where people started asking me how to do it. And that's where I am [inaudible 00:05:30.1] in that position of teaching people as well just basically from my learning.

Mark: So you said you tried starting some websites and they failed. Can you share any of those with us? Not to make you relive failures of the past but [inaudible 00:05:43.7] so you should know.

Jaryd: Yeah. Well, the hardest one was—so I was in Egypt and I realized I didn't want to go back home broke to my job as a plumber. And I'm like I need to go here. So I thought what I really want to do is travel the world to make money online. So I typed into Google how to travel the world to make money online. I literally typed that in and what popped out was people travel blogging. And I just went yeah that's me. I'm going to go away and start travel blogging. And I did that for I think bit a bit over two years and I made a little bit of money. But what I realized eventually was just the competition was so fierce. Everybody with an iPhone was my competition pretty much. And it was a good value because I learned a lot on how to grow websites and how to build websites and all that sort of stuff. And that was—they did flop though like I'm just spending so much time on it and it wasn't really worth what I was getting back like at all. I was spending a lot of time on it. But that time grew into a lot of knowledge and then I thought alright I'm going to start; the second one was I'm going to start a drop shipping business. And I got home and I got my phone and I just spent a month calling people to become suppliers for this store. And it was called AusGlobetrotter—oh no it wasn't called that, my blog was called AusGlobetrotter and my drop shipping store was Trotter Gear. And I just wanted to put up a whole bunch of travel products like backpacks and heaps of these different types of travel products. And I got a bunch of suppliers and I built this store and I started making a few sales but it took a fair bit of—

Mark: What year was this?

Jaryd: 2013. And I started making a few sales and I'm like alright cool now I need to double this down and I forgot how long it takes to really build a business and get traction. Especially if I was doing it for free and not using paid advertising. And eventually, I realized that I was just coming up against some pretty fierce competition. You know all these big guys that are selling hundreds of these a week and I'm selling like one every now and then. And it was pretty deflating where I just I bit the bullet and ran around I'm just going to have to turn everything off and start again. And that's been two businesses that I started and I learned a lot. I didn't make a lot.

Mark: You value was in the education of going through that. Drop shipping is something that is a tough category to compete in especially if you're doing that around 2013. There's too much and a lot of people are getting [inaudible 00:08:43.4] drop shipping. So how did you start to realize well why don't I go ahead and buy businesses and websites that are already been established? When did you buy your first site?

Jaryd: So I bought my first one in 2014; at the end of 2014. And I was pretty hair locked; I rushed off into it and it was a good investment and I got all my return back and everything like that and it kept growing but I should have taken a bit more time and a bit more—build a better process on due diligence. So I don't know if that's the same for everybody when they're buying their first website. But it was certainly the case for me. I didn't really seek out coaches or help or mentors I was just running it on the fly and yeah early 2014 and that—but when I did buy it I realized like wow I'm earning so much more money from the share market when I was investing the share market. Any sort of investment I have ever made I was making more money and I realized that was the norm at that time with the returns or the multiples that were around just in that year.

Mark: So how did you start looking for your first business and how has that changed? I think one of the problems that buyers have today is deal flow, right? Every business I just put on the market that is worth looking at has literally dozens if not hundreds of people looking at it at the same time. Where did you find that first one and what are you doing these days to really secure good deal flow?

Jaryd: Yeah. So I found out about this marketplace Flippa. I went on there and realized that was a lot of not so great listings and much like—and I've spoken to the CEO of Flippa a couple of months ago and they're making some amazing changes; new CEO, it's really coming around which is great. But then they just hadn't had people that like though you were allowed to sign up anonymously and people were listing a lot of junky sites on there and it was—I felt it was a bit of the Wild Wild West. And I was just trying to find this diamond in the rough. And I looked for a long time. And that's where I bought my first business. And where it's changed now is I'm not so much on those marketplaces that are out now. It's because you've got to sift through so many listings to find something that's decent. And a lot of my clients they do that and they say I don't really spend too much time on there. I say have a look every now and then but where we're really finding them is the brokers like you guys where the listings; you guys have your brand name. You have a reputation. You don't want to list something that's a junky website or not so great. And that's why you have your process before you list it for sale. You don't want to sell something to somebody and it just goes down that go blow like that because people are going to complain and bad reviews; all that sort of stuff. And that's why I like to look to the brokers like you guys because they're more quality listings and there's already been a slight bit of vetting done and it makes the process so much easier when you come to do your due diligence. You guys actually help us buyers get more information rather than us to have to rely on sellers as like yeah maybe I'll sell my site here and I'll see if I can get some interest and they're just not like very prompt with their response should I say.

Mark: Sure. So are you still active in buying sites?

Jaryd: No. Personally I haven't bought a site in a while. I'm really—I do look at a fair few sites though especially through my clients. I help vendors in due diligence processing and stuff like that. So it's great to keep me in the game. If I wasn't doing that I'd be actively just purchasing. But yeah, I learned stuff. It's great too because I learned so much from that process too with my clients. How I can sort of take a backward step and not be fully in the game but I'm a bit out and just have a better—it's a really good approach for both clients and myself. We've both gained so much from it.

Mark: Yeah. So now you've transitioned over into this [inaudible 00:12:58.8] because of just how you're doing and all that so [inaudible 00:13:01.7] learn is that—I'd like to pick your brain a little bit on what you're telling people in this coaching process and some of the problems that you're seeing. So let's start off with this, out of the coaching clients or the clients that you're coaching, these are all people that are looking to buy websites and they're going out there and looking to maybe build a portfolio of these sites and getting into the game. What are maybe some of the top mistakes that you see most commonly among people that are looking to buy?

Jaryd: Yeah. The most common one is where people just start seeing dollar signs. They start to see—and a lot of my clients haven't really known that this industry even existed. And they start looking at sites much like a lot of people listening to this already know that your website is much like a property website where they can scroll through and look at listings. It's the same when people find this out. I noticed when I first come to this like oh my god I can buy this business this much and the multiples this much and I just go and this is in my end and it's only taking x amount of hours and they just go; they want to rush through it. And that's probably the biggest mistake is they sell themselves into the business. And what I've noticed is that sometimes whether you like this guy or not—what Donald Trump says sometimes the best investments are the ones we never make. And I find—and this is what I tell my clients as well is that if you can't sell yourself out of the business because the data shows it is so good. I feel that it's an investment that you need to really pursue. But instead of trying to sell yourself into the business why don't you try and sell yourself out of it and if you can't then move forward with it. In saying that cover all your steps during due diligence. And that's probably the biggest thing that I find when people come and want to buy a website. The second thing is a lot of people don't know so much about SEO and traffic and websites; how they work and stuff like that. So I have a few—a process and a few lessons teaching people what it actually is first, how it is incorporated in websites, and what it means for a website, and how important it is to gain traffic and to build your business up. And then there are obviously different techniques of marketing. And I think whether it's paid or SEO and a lot of SEO now is paid SEO. But that totally; they are two very important things. I would say a top thing as a third thing would be people being confident in speaking to the seller and knowing what questions to ask and knowing how to ask those questions in a way that it's a conversation. I noticed when I first had my first conversation with the seller is I asked a question about SEO and then I started talking about the finances for 10 minutes and then I went back to SEO. And I could tell after I came back off that call and a few months later I could tell the seller was just like these guys need to be game and I made the call really clunky because I was asking questions haphazardly. So that's a big thing is coaching people to have the confidence to speak to sellers because when they're first doing it they're like oh my god I'm speaking to like—I know that when I first did that I was like I'm speaking to a business juggernaut here that's owned business. They're a gun, I'm nobody. And just teaching people that like hey you've learned so much through this process of working for me, you actually know a lot more than you think you do. It's just a state; the state of being really. So getting them to state and really understanding like you've got this and that's a huge thing that we have to teach for sure.

Mark: I want to go back to your first point here, the first mistake that you put out there, and that's the people that are seeing just the dollar signs, right? [inaudible 00:16:52.3] into the business and it's just that I've definitely seen that. Personally, I've experienced that as well [inaudible 00:16:58.1] a couple of years ago where I talked about in that position that I made that was a mistake and I did just that. I sold myself into the business and I just flew completely past all the red flags and caution signs and everything else and I thought I can take care of this [inaudible 00:17:16.0] I know what I'm doing like I can somehow get around the work which you can't. But I don't want to talk about the extremes of that because you talked about being able to sell yourself out of this. So you sell yourself out of this, you [inaudible 00:17:29.8] it doesn't make sense. In my experience, there are some personalities though out there that A. either will privately still look at the data in a way that they're selling themselves into the business. So you look at the data and you rather excuse the stuff that doesn't make sense or you rationalize ways that makes sense for you. Or you just hyper focus on the benefits. And I've seen the flipside as well. I've talked to buyers that have been looking for businesses now for three or four years and there's always something wrong with what they're looking at which I get. How do you coach your client to balance that out and to be able to really take that objective step back to say look this buyer I know that you're risk-averse and buying any web-based business is risky. There's going to be risks in there. Or on the flip side hey slow down pump the brakes a little bit we need to take an objective standpoint. Generally just how somebody can do get that on top of text maybe of what type of personality they are?

Jaryd: Yeah it is definitely other than just a personality thing I think that's a huge point and probably is but it's also where you are at in your journey and whether you're just on a; at different times on my journey I'm being so gung ho and then a lot of times like just being very stand back-ish. As for tips on how to navigate that is I think people if they ask themselves like alright here's if I just do a massive pros and cons list. And they go here's what could happen that I don't want to happen. And you know here's the cons and here's the pros and then not just have yourself look at it but have somebody outside of being invested in this vehicle of investment to look at it as well. And I think that's very helpful and that works for most of my clients because I get to look at it because I'm not like invested. And I had a call with a kid yesterday and he was like yeah I want to go out and buy this business. I'm like do you think this is—and I didn't say like don't buy this business. I'm just asking questions in a way that helped him understand whether it was right for him or not because that's when we get the most profound learning; it's when we ask them questions and they come up and they ask these themselves rather than I just blurt the answers onto them. But I feel that that's a really good technique of getting somebody else to outside of it have a look at the numbers and the pros and cons and then that person asking the person who is looking on the business like are you willing to weigh up these risks, are you willing to take on these risks with the possibility of achieving X result? And I've done that with my second business with my dad and my third business with my dad. And my dad I love him so much but with parents what I find is they just want to protect you. And they love you but they just want to protect you. And dad was like saying like no this is a terrible, terrible business. And a lot of the business was—the financials were like; because I was buying in Australian dollars; I wanted to buy in Australian dollars because I was buying it from an Aussie seller. But I converted to US dollars for where the platform they're selling it on and then also from US dollars into a different currency that they were trading through. And it made the financials very, very messy. And my dad just like flat out refused. Do not buy this business. And I rushed off and I didn't rush off; sorry it took me like—I went through and I thought about this and our process for over a month. And I asked myself am I willing to take this risk to possibly achieve X? And the answer was yes because I knew the risk. I was willing to take it to achieve that. And it worked out amazingly well for me. But I think that's a great process that people can do.

Mark: Yeah. That's good. I think a lot of this actually ties into my next question because you have said the third mistake that you see was that confidence speaking to a seller. Now when you were speaking to sellers you had a little bit about imposter syndrome. First of all wondering why am I even on the phone, and you're kind of all over the place with that and giving the impression of not really being up for the game. I know we talked a lot to buyers and on this podcast, you talked a lot about making a good impression to a seller, right? Sellers in today's market they have choices in who's going to buy their business usually. And sometimes the best offer doesn't win because of their buyer. So there might be another buyer who has a better offer and [inaudible 00:22:15.2] paper. But if a seller might know the buyer better then they'd go with them. So there a process that you really use to ask the right questions and stay on track in making sure that here's the financial questions and now here's your product sourcing questions or your content guidelines or whatever type of business. Do you teach a method for this for looking at approaches to buyer and seller conference calls?

Jaryd: Yeah. And that's definitely a good question. Like how do you become an attractive buyer? Because you're so right; there's people that know their business and there's people that want to sell their business to somebody that can take it to the next level and not someone is going to just butcher it since they get it. And that's hardly—I think that's really important for everybody who's a buyer looking to buy a business if you can understand that and really respect that business, not just go—I mean they come in and just be a Wild Wild West cowboy and do this sort of stuff. I think that's a really good place to come from when you do go to jump on the phone is respect that that person has put a lot into that business. And if you come from a place of respect the rest will fall into place. But as in the techniques I feel on how to be attractive buyer is to ensure that you do as much research and you know as much as you can about online businesses. And you know the lingo. Like when people first thought they may not know what SEO is or SEM or CRO and all these different types of terms. If you can speak the language of the seller that's going to definitely gain you some points I feel. And if you are respectful and you make sure the conversation flows quite well and you're not too hard like you don't make the interview or your sales questions too much like an interrogation; if you can have some enjoyment and make sure it's a fun and safe conversation then I feel that you come across as a far attractive buyer. And there's also so many other techniques that you can use through—what's it called an NLP; neurolinguistic programming in matching the seller's energy and how you contact and phrase your questions with a middle that sort of stuff. But if you could just forget about that and throw that out the window if you come from a place of respect and you really understand the business and not just the business but the industry as a whole then the buyer is going to see like okay well this person's really done a lot of due diligence. They're asking really good questions. And I can see that they care about this business not just in a financial way but that they could be investing in this business to ensure it grows. And I want to be careful with invested in the business with emotions because you do need to be attached to a certain point as well. I feel that I think they vary; all those things help quite largely into being an attractive buyer.

Mark: And a lot of that's very, very good advice there. I want to talk about some of the suggestions you would give to somebody who is getting into this initially. You talked a lot about knowing the language and understanding some basic concepts is SEO and you teach some of these things as well. I know for myself with Quiet Light Brokerage we get people that are coming in from the offline world; brick and mortar world who are coming in first time and many of them will just say I want to buy an online business, others might say I want to buy an e-commerce business then I have a few ideas of what they want and don't want. But a common question I get is do I need experience before buying an online business? So I'm going to throw that question at you. What do you think? Do you think somebody needs experience to buy an online business? And if so what type of experience?

Jaryd: Yeah. I wouldn't say you need experience to buy one. But I would say you definitely need experience to grow one. And not just experience but education. Because everybody says like I should you have experience and you can't just—I know this when I first started looking for jobs when I was younger I was like you just you can't go away and get a job you got to have some sort of experience but you've got to start somewhere. And that somewhere is education. So if people do decide that like hey I'm going to go from brick and mortar to online businesses is like invest in your education in that. So then you can become more confident not just when you speak into the seller and become an attractive buyer but like hey I know what I'm going to do when I purchase this business. And I think it's an unnerving thing for somebody to come to the online world and go I'm going to buy a business but not know what their plan of attack is or what their strategy is once they do end up owning that business. And if you have anybody that's listening and has that feeling of like I don't know what I'm going to do I would suggest that you go away and get a bit of education. And there are so many people out there that do teach people how to start online businesses and that could be a place who will teach me where to buy websites as well. But understand and get some education on how the online business realm actually works. And then you put yourself into a better position for sure.

Mark: Yeah, that was what I would say as well. I often recommend the people to just understand the language. You don't have to be an SEO expert but understand the business and what people are talking about. But then understand what you are personally good at; maybe it's negotiating contracts [inaudible 00:28:01.0] look for a business that you really could get that optimized in that area and accelerate that. What are some of the trends that you're seeing recently? You're looking at a lot of deal flow and working with a lot of buyers who are currently in the market. Are you seeing any trends emerge over the past 12 months and maybe even forward-looking as well, are there any trends that you see coming up here?

Jaryd: I think hugely obviously Amazon, right? They're making some massive changes. We're seeing a lot of Amazon associate and Amazon FBA up until now. It's been big. Like a lot of Amazon FBA businesses are popping up and they had started quite a few years ago. But it can take time for it to snowball and traction on the shore. And Amazon FBA is a great way to go about it. People I think before these even existed didn't realize that there was like things like Zappos and different companies and different ways you could do order fulfillment for instead of having to do just drop shipping you could buy bulk from wherever you want in the world and send it to an auto fulfillment agency. But the way Amazon does it is they make things so much easier for you and feasible for everybody. So that's something that I feel is definitely been trending or whether it's had its trend or not, I'm not so sure. You can always speculate but you can't always be certain. And I feel now that with a lot of changes that have been happening with Facebook advertising and different types of advertising where it's getting more expensive and I've talked to a lot of people especially a boss over the world in Australia that they've been having troubles with getting results in marketing on that platform. I feel hugely that SEO and great content is going to come back into being a massive way to grow your business; the ones that you do buy. And I feel that's definitely going to start trending a lot more. That's what I feel and that's what I see.

Mark: That's fascinating. I want to pick your brain a little bit on that. Why do you see that coming back and then how do you counter that people that are saying voice aided search; Google Now and obviously Amazon website and Siri are pulling away from SEO? Where are you seeing the growth there, and what leads you to believe that that's going to be a good opportunity in the future?

Jaryd: Sorry, what are you saying they're pulling away from SEO?

Mark: Voice aided search as opposed to just type initiated search where you get results. You know you ask Google for when [inaudible 00:30:38.5] form and you're going to get an answer right away as opposed to coming to process with content sites. Where do you see the opportunity in SEO? I guess that would be the main question.

Jaryd: Yeah. Where I see the opportunity in that is in particular search as opposed to just where people hey Siri or hey whatever it is and give me an answer is that those deeper questions where you can get a profound value not just like a quick little win like you know what's the temperature today or whatever it is but for like something that's more in-depth like hey Siri how do I scale my business by using a specific type of conversion rate optimize—sorry my Siri just went off then.

Mark: [inaudible 00:31:20.0].

Jaryd: Did you hear that?

Mark: Just a little bit. Yes, that was pretty funny.

Jaryd: Sorry guys. And so I feel that if you want to go like hey I want to learn how to do this type of conversion rate optimization on my business on my website. I feel that if you got really good content behind that as—I'm not so sure if that's a blog post but it could be podcasting or definitely some sort of way people can consume content in audio or video. I feel that that's going to come up the top a lot more. That's a way people are consuming it a lot easier I feel these days. And I feel that that's going to win in content in audio and visual.

Mark: Yeah. I think watching how content has evolved in the past 20 years is fascinating.

Jaryd: Yeah.

Mark: But [inaudible 00:32:13.0] not as much content as we can and it's really matured to the point where if you're not offering clubby content you're just not going to compete at all.

Jaryd: Yeah, that's right.

Mark: Yeah. It's gotten way more difficult. Alright we're pretty much at the end of our allotted time but I do want to ask you what sort of; just as you were [inaudible 00:32:32.7] somebody for. You know a 30-second ride up and down and they said oh man that's really cool. What would you want to tell me to get me started in this route? What would you give somebody that's just starting out?

Jaryd: Yeah, I would say hey go to website brokers such as you guys and see what is available out there and start learning about the different types of business models. And you can see how much the businesses cost, what their expenses are, what their income is, and then also what the multiple would be. And you can see the sort of returns; start running the figures, running the math. And then dig deeper into those business. And when you start getting prospectuses on different business models then you start to get a bit of an education based on different types of online businesses and then grow from there. And then once you start doing that and you get more experience in looking at that. And it takes time to do so then you can decide if this is a route for you or not.

Mark: [inaudible 00:33:28.2] that's fantastic advice. Where can people learn more about you or reach out to you?

Jaryd: Yeah. So www.BuyingOnlineBusinesses.com; businesses plural. And then you can search that in Google or any search engine or go to my Facebook or social handles which is just Jaryd Krause. So Jaryd Krause.

Mark: Awesome we'll link to those in the show notes. Jaryd thank you so much for coming on.

Jaryd: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

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