What separates great real estate investors from those simply chasing the next deal?


In this episode of REdirect, Greg Fink, Chief Investment Officer of Lightstone Direct, sits down with Mitchell Hochberg, President of Lightstone, to explore how one of the nation's largest privately held real estate firms grew into a $12 billion platform while preserving the entrepreneurial culture that fueled its success.


Drawing from decades of experience across residential, hospitality, commercial, and mixed-use development, Mitchell shares the principles that have guided Lightstone through multiple market cycles and why protecting capital has always mattered more than maximizing projected returns.


This conversation explores how Lightstone evaluates thousands of investment opportunities to pursue only a select few, why uncertainty often creates the best buying opportunities, and how disciplined underwriting becomes even more valuable during volatile markets. Greg and Mitchell also discuss the importance of aligning incentives between sponsors and investors, and why patience consistently outperforms attempts to time the market 


So, whether you're evaluating real estate sponsors, building a diversified investment portfolio, or looking to better understand how institutional investors think about risk, this episode offers a practical framework for making better long-term investment decisions.


What You'll Learn:
Why protecting downside matters more than maximizing upside

Mitchell explains why every investment begins with preserving capital first, using conservative underwriting and disciplined assumptions before evaluating return potential.

How institutional investors find the best opportunities

Why reviewing thousands of deals to invest in only a select few creates a competitive advantage and allows disciplined investors to remain patient until exceptional opportunities emerge.

Why uncertainty often creates the best buying environment

Periods of market volatility frequently produce the most attractive investments, not because assets become inherently better, but because disciplined investors are willing to act when others hesitate.

How alignment creates better investment outcomes

Why meaningful sponsor co-investment ensures managers succeed alongside investors, creating stronger incentives than fee-driven investment models.

The three questions every passive investor should ask

How evaluating a sponsor's experience, financial alignment, and incentive structure can dramatically improve investment decision-making before committing capital.
Why relationships still drive the best real estate deals

Even in an increasingly data-driven industry, many of the highest-quality opportunities are sourced through long-standing relationships, reputation, and market credibility.

How Lightstone scaled without losing its entrepreneurial culture

Why combining institutional processes with an owner's mindset has allowed the firm to grow while maintaining the speed, flexibility, and creativity that differentiate it from larger competitors.


About the Guest:
Mitchell Hochberg is the President of Lightstone, one of the largest privately held real estate investment and development firms in the United States, overseeing a diversified national portfolio exceeding $12 billion across residential, hospitality, commercial, industrial, retail, and life sciences assets.

He has more than 30 years of experience in every facet of real estate investment, development, and operations, including the residential, hospitality, commercial, gaming, and mixed-use sectors. 

Mitchell is also an Attorney and a Certified Public Accountant, bringing decades of experience in real estate investment, capital allocation, and institutional asset management.


Quotes:

1. "When you're investing your own money, the first fundamental investment criteria is not to lose your money. Then you could look at how much money you're going to make." 
2. "We're not just doing cookie cutter deals. We always have looked for something under the covers that other people are not seeing in the deal." 
3. "If I was evaluating a real estate sponsor, I would look at their experience, I would look at their track record, and I would look at their alignment."
4. “When we recruit, one of the fundamental things that we're looking for is the best athlete. I'm not necessarily looking for the best second baseman. I'm looking for the best all-around athlete. I can teach them how to play second base.”

REdirect is handcrafted by our friends over at: fame.so

What if the biggest advantage in real estate wasn't timing the market but thinking differently than everyone else? 


In this episode of REdirect, Greg Fink, Chief Investment Officer of Lightstone Direct, welcomes David Lichtenstein, Founder, Chairman, and CEO of Lightstone, to share the investment philosophy that has helped build one of the nation's largest privately held real estate firms.


Over nearly four decades, David has navigated multiple recessions, credit cycles, and structural shifts across the real estate industry. Rather than relying on market timing, his approach has always centered on disciplined underwriting, deep due diligence, aligned incentives, and the creativity to uncover opportunities others overlook.


This conversation explores why downside protection should always come before projected returns, how investing across multiple asset classes creates flexibility when markets change, and why the best deals are often found through relationships instead of competitive auctions. 


So, whether you're an active real estate investor, passive limited partner, or business leader looking to make better long-term investment decisions, this episode offers a practical framework for building durable wealth through multiple market cycles.


What You'll Learn:
Why sponsor alignment matters more than projected returns

David explains why every investor should evaluate whether a sponsor has meaningful capital invested alongside clients, a proven track record, and incentives that reward long-term performance rather than fees.

How protecting downside creates better long-term outcomes

The biggest investment mistakes often come from overlooking hidden risks. David shares why disciplined due diligence and understanding worst-case scenarios matter far more than chasing optimistic return projections.
Why diversification across asset classes creates opportunity

Instead of relying on one property type, Lightstone invests across multifamily, industrial, hospitality, retail, and other sectors, allowing the firm to pursue opportunities wherever market conditions are most attractive.

How creativity becomes a competitive advantage
In increasingly competitive markets, successful investors differentiate themselves by uncovering value others miss, sourcing off-market opportunities, and solving complex problems rather than simply bidding on widely marketed assets.
Why due diligence uncovers what spreadsheets can't

From structural issues to overlooked tax liabilities, David shares how deep investigation often reveals risks and opportunities that separate institutional investors from the rest of the market.

How structural disruption is reshaping commercial real estate

The conversation explores how e-commerce, remote work, artificial intelligence, and robotics continue transforming retail, office, industrial, and hospitality properties—and why investors must continuously adapt.

Why long-term conviction beats trying to time the market


Rather than waiting for the "perfect" entry point, David explains why patient investors who focus on fundamentals, discipline, and quality opportunities consistently outperform those attempting to predict market cycles.


About the Guest:
David Lichtenstein is the Founder, Chairman, and CEO of Lightstone, one of the largest privately held real estate investment and development firms in the United States. Since founding the company in 1986, he has grown Lightstone into a diversified national platform with more than $12 billion in assets spanning multifamily, hospitality, retail, office, industrial, and mixed-use real estate.


Beyond Lightstone, David serves on numerous civic, industry, and educational boards, including the New York City Economic Development Corporation, the Real Estate Board of New York, The Economic Club of New York, and Brookings Institution's Economic Studies Council. He is also the founder of Friendship House, a nonprofit organization providing housing for families of seriously ill children and adults receiving medical care in the Greater New York area.


Episode Chapters:
[00:00:00] Intro

[00:04:38] The Importance of Skin in the Game

[00:06:47] Three Questions to Ask Any Real Estate Sponsor

[00:10:51] Inside Lightstone’s Due Diligence Process

[00:14:29] Balancing Upside, Downside, and Capital Preservation

[00:16:08] How Technology Is Reshaping Every Asset Class

[00:23:29] Timing the Market, Finding Opportunities, and Rapid-Fire Predictions

Quotes:

1. “Whenever you're following what everybody's doing, it's just gonna get very mediocre returns. As much as we can differentiate ourselves and think originally and think out of the box, that's where we have blue water.
2. "Every single box has changed, and it's required for people to be much more knowledgeable, to be able to think out of the box, to be able to see around curves."
3. “The risk and the downside ultimately will kill you. If you manage to upside incorrectly, you'll make less money. But the downside has the ability to really make you lose your capital.” 
4. “I think residential is by far priced most highly because people understand that it has the least risk, and I agree with them.” 

Episode Resources:

• David Lichtenstein on LinkedIn

REdirect is handcrafted by our friends over at: fame.so

What if becoming a better physician started with becoming financially free?

In this episode of REdirect, Jonathan Spitz and Storm Murphy welcome Dr. Jordan Frey, board-certified plastic surgeon, educator, and founder of The Prudent Plastic Surgeon, to share how he transformed his financial life without ever stepping away from the operating room.

After finishing medical training with over half a million dollars of debt, Jordan realized that earning a high income alone wouldn't guarantee financial security. Instead, he built a deliberate strategy centered on real estate investing, diversified income streams, financial education, and long-term ownership, growing his net worth to more than $2 million in less than two years.
The conversation explores why so many physicians fall into the "social contract" trap of assuming wealth will naturally follow years of training, how real estate became the cornerstone of Jordan's financial plan, and why active investing isn't as incompatible with a demanding medical career as many believe.
Jonathan, Storm, and Jordan also discuss the realities of managing rental properties, building scalable systems, leveraging real estate tax advantages, and balancing entrepreneurship with family life and patient care. 
So, whether you're a physician, business owner, or high-income professional looking to create lasting wealth beyond your primary career, this episode offers a practical blueprint for building financial independence while continuing to do the work you love.

What You'll Learn:Why high income alone won't create financial freedomMany physicians spend years assuming financial security will naturally arrive after training. Jordan explains why intentional investing, not simply earning more, is what ultimately builds lasting wealth.

How to build wealth while keeping your full-time careerWhy financial independence doesn't require leaving your profession, but instead creating additional income streams through investing, entrepreneurship, and disciplined capital allocation.

The one-third framework for growing wealthHow splitting excess savings between debt reduction, stock market investing, and real estate creates a balanced approach that builds wealth without relying on a single strategy.
When active real estate investing makes senseWhy physicians may actually possess many of the skills needed to succeed as real estate investors, from managing complex situations to communicating effectively with people under stress.

How to scale rental properties without creating another full-time jobThe systems, contractors, property managers, and operational processes that allow real estate portfolios to grow while minimizing day-to-day management demands.

Understanding real estate professional tax benefitsHow Real Estate Professional Status works, why it often requires strategic household planning, and when the potential tax savings justify pursuing the designation.

Why financial wellness improves career fulfillmentJordan explains why burnout is often driven by financial pressure rather than medicine itself and how removing money-related stress allows professionals to rediscover purpose in the work they already love.

Episode Chapters:[00:00:00] Intro[00:03:07] Stepping Away From College Baseball And Into Medicine[00:06:21] The Financial Reality of Becoming a Physician[00:12:47] Taking the First Steps Toward Building Wealth[00:14:04] Building a Cash-Flowing Real Estate Portfolio[00:19:57] The Challenges of Managing Rental Properties[00:27:20] Real Estate Professional Status and Tax Benefits[00:31:48] Why High-Earning Physicians Still Live Paycheck to Paycheck[00:37:32] The Complexity of Finding Work-Life Balance
About the Guest:Dr. Jordan Frey is a board-certified reconstructive plastic surgeon specializing in breast reconstruction and microsurgery at Erie County Medical Center, where he also serves as Associate Program Director of the Plastic Surgery Residency at the University at Buffalo.

Outside the operating room, Jordan is the founder of The Prudent Plastic Surgeon, a physician-focused education platform dedicated to helping doctors build financial independence through investing, real estate, entrepreneurship, and intentional financial planning. Through his writing, podcast appearances, educational content, and growing community of more than 20,000 physicians, he helps medical professionals reduce financial stress, prevent burnout, and build wealth while continuing to practice medicine. 

Quotes:

1. "Once I started thinking about money and created that financial well-being and set myself on the path to financial freedom, that's when I rediscovered everything that I really love about medicine."
2. "The chances of any of these kids I'm coaching going professional is slim to none, but the chances that these lessons they can take to be very successful in life are hopefully a hundred percent." 
3. "Do not invest in real estate just for the taxes, because if you have a deal that is not cash flowing, that's still a bad deal."
4. "If you magically made every physician financially free, we would have the ability to change and shape healthcare in such a positive way for patients, for physicians, and for the whole of it."

Episode Resources:

• Jordan Frey on LinkedIn
• The Prudent Plastic Surgeon Website

REdirect is handcrafted by our friends over at: fame.so

What if the multifamily market's recovery is already underway but most investors are still looking in the wrong places? 
In this episode of REdirect, Jonathan Spitz welcomes Jay Parsons, one of the most respected voices in rental housing economics, to break down the realities of today's apartment market and why the industry's long-awaited recovery will look very different from past cycles.
Drawing on years of advising REITs, operators, lenders, and institutional investors, Jay explains how the sector survived one of the largest supply waves in modern history and why the conversation is now shifting from construction deliveries to demand fundamentals. With new supply projected to fall sharply over the next two years, investors are beginning to focus on where rent growth, occupancy, and long-term value creation will emerge.
The discussion explores why submarket selection has become more important than choosing the right metro area, how tier-two markets are quietly outperforming many high-growth cities, and why investors must rethink valuation expectations in an environment where cap rates remain stubbornly compressed.

Jay also dives into regulatory risks, the disconnect between public and private market pricing, and why the most compelling opportunities may require patience rather than aggressive short-term return expectations.

Whether you're an apartment owner, allocator, REIT investor, or real estate operator, this conversation provides a practical framework for navigating the next stage of the multifamily cycle and understanding why 2027 may ultimately be the year investors have been waiting for.



What You'll Learn:Why "survive until 2025" became "survive through 2025"
The industry underestimated how long the supply wave would last. Even in 2025, apartment deliveries remained among the highest levels seen in decades, forcing operators to reset expectations around rent growth and occupancy.
Why demand is now the key variable
With new deliveries projected to decline dramatically, future performance will depend less on construction activity and more on job growth, household formation, and renter demand.

The "flight to quality within markets" framework
Success today is increasingly driven by submarket selection rather than broad metro-level bets. High-quality locations with strong amenities, infrastructure, and diverse employment bases are outperforming weaker pockets within the same city.

Why tier-two markets are gaining investor attention
Markets like Grand Rapids, Indianapolis, and Greenville have avoided the extreme supply pressures seen in many Sun Belt metros while benefiting from steady population growth and diversified economies.

How to invest in a tight-cap-rate environment
Cap rates have not adjusted as much as interest rates, forcing investors to focus on long-term income growth, durable fundamentals, and extended hold periods rather than quick exits.

The regulatory risks investors may be underestimating
From rent control initiatives to tenant screening restrictions, housing regulations continue to expand. Understanding policy risk is becoming an increasingly important part of underwriting.

Why multifamily REITs may be sending a market signal
Public apartment REITs continue trading at meaningful discounts to underlying asset values, creating an arbitrage opportunity that private capital is increasingly exploiting through take-private transactions.

Why 2027 could be the real inflection point
As the supply wave fully works through the system and occupancy normalizes, rent growth could accelerate beyond historical averages, creating a much stronger backdrop for apartment fundamentals.

Episode Chapters:[00:00:00] Intro[00:03:38] Why “Survive Till ’25” Took Longer Than Expected[00:06:49] Supply Slowdown And The New Demand Story[00:10:11] AI, Hiring Uncertainty, And Economic Resilience[00:13:28] Sun Belt Vs. Midwest: The New Multifamily Divide[00:19:10] Valuations, Cap Rates, And Long-Term Investment Strategy[00:25:25] Distress, Regulation, And Risks Investors Are Watching[00:37:18] Lessons From The 1970s And What Comes Next For Multifamily

About the Guest:Jay Parsons is a rental housing economist, advisor, and one of the most widely followed voices in multifamily real estate. He advises institutional investors, REITs, operators, lenders, and housing organizations on market trends and strategy. Formerly Chief Economist at RealPage, Jay is currently Economics Advisor to JPI and Strategy Advisor to Madera Residential. He also hosts The Rent Roll with Jay Parsons, one of the industry's most popular housing podcasts, and has been featured by The Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg, CNBC, The New York Times, and numerous leading real estate publications.

Quotes:

1. "Supply is the easiest thing to forecast because it's based on things already permitted and started, whereas demand and rents obviously have uncertainty around them." 
2. "I think the real story for the next cycle is less about the market and more about the location and the deal within that market."
3. "You want to find places that have year-round drivers to them and aren't just dependent on one thing like a tourism-type thing." 
4. "There is going to be more distress that hits the market, but it's not going to be systemic and it's generally probably going to be less desirable real estate." 
5. "What you're going to see is that the highest quality distress is getting resolved behind the scenes through recaps and loan extensions because everyone's bullish on the outlook." 

Episode Resources:

• Jay Parsons on LinkedIn
• Madera Residential Website

REdirect is handcrafted by our friends over at: fame.so

What if financial freedom didn’t require fixing toilets or flipping houses?

In this episode of REdirect, Jonathan and Storm welcome Chad Ackerman, Founder of CARE, to break down the realities of passive real estate syndications. Drawing on his experience as an advisor and business coach, Chad shares the lessons he learned the hard way so others don’t have to.
The conversation goes beyond surface-level deal analysis and dives into what truly drives outcomes for limited partners. Chad explains why operator vetting beats spreadsheet projections every time, how communication style reveals integrity, and why community intelligence can protect investors from avoidable losses.

They also tackle overlooked topics like vintage diversification, bonus depreciation, capital stack awareness, and how to position yourself when capital is sitting on the sidelines. For busy professionals who want exposure to real estate without the operational burden, this episode offers a practical roadmap to building passive income with discipline and confidence.


What You'll Learn:Build your buy box before reviewing deals
Why defining your risk tolerance, target returns, liquidity needs, and non-negotiables upfront helps you eliminate emotional decision-making and say “no” faster.
Why you always bet on the jockey, not the horse
 A strong operator can navigate a challenging deal; a weak operator can destroy a great one. Track record, transparency, and alignment matter more than projected IRRs.
The communication test that exposes integrity
 How operators handle bad news tells you more than how they market good news. Transparency builds trust; defensiveness signals risk.

How to leverage community over solo due diligence
 Why joining LP communities and gathering referrals dramatically improves outcomes and reduces exposure to inexperienced or predatory sponsors.
Why vintage diversification matters
 The year you invest can shape your returns more than the asset class itself. Spreading capital across cycles smooths volatility and reduces concentration risk.
The tax advantages most passive investors overlook
 How bonus depreciation and cost segregation can offset income and enhance after-tax returns when structured properly.
How to prepare before deploying capital
 If you’re not investing today, use the time to study capital stacks, loan structures, and operator history so you’re ready when an opportunity arises.


About the Guest:Chad Ackerman is the founder of CARE (Chad Ackerman Real Estate), an education and coaching platform that helps busy professionals build wealth through passive real estate syndications without becoming landlords. Today, Chad equips high-income professionals with the tools, community, and guidance they need to invest confidently - focusing on disciplined operator vetting, smart portfolio construction, and long-term wealth building.
Quotes:

1. "I couldn't figure out how to scale and stay in my W2, but when I discovered passive investing, I realized I can stay in my W2 and scale as much as I want because I'm just investing money." 
2. "If you find an operator that isn't going to put skin in the game, walk away."
3. "Trust is hard to build and easy to lose, and transparency is the number one thing that builds credibility with operators."
4. "Get over FOMO, there's going to be another deal that comes around, so if there's something that just doesn't feel right, trust your gut and walk away." 
5. "Deals can be found in any environment, but you've got to do your due diligence, have your buy box set up, and have operators you trust."

REdirect is handcrafted by our friends over at: fame.so

What if real estate could trade with the speed, transparency, and efficiency of public markets, without sacrificing institutional trust? 


In this episode of REdirect, Jonathan Spitz sits down with Phil Bak, founder of Skyline Standard and former ETF innovator, to unpack why tokenization may fundamentally reshape commercial real estate over the next decade.


Rather than framing tokenization as a crypto trend, Phil explains it as a market structure innovation: one designed to solve the biggest friction points in private real estate investing - illiquidity, fragmented data, inconsistent reporting, and lack of standardized trust infrastructure.


The conversation dives deep into why real estate tokenization differs from stock tokenization, how blockchain-enabled verification systems could automate due diligence from months to minutes, and why the missing “trust layer” is the key to unlocking broader institutional adoption.


Phil also explores how embedded proof systems, standardized data protocols, and automated compliance could transform the way investors evaluate assets, while simultaneously reducing operational burdens for property owners and operators.


From ETF innovation to digital asset infrastructure, this episode offers a practical, forward-looking framework for understanding how real estate markets may evolve and why the next generation of investors may expect transparency and liquidity by default.


What You'll Learn:
Why tokenization is bigger than crypto speculation
How tokenization should be understood as a market structure innovation that reduces friction, automates processes, and improves transparency, not simply as a speculative blockchain trend.


Why real estate is the ideal use case for tokenization
Public equities already trade efficiently. Real estate, by contrast, remains fragmented, illiquid, and operationally complex, making it far more likely to benefit from blockchain infrastructure.


The “trust layer” missing from private real estate
Why every successful liquid asset market relies on standardized verification systems and why real estate still lacks the authenticated data infrastructure institutional capital requires.


How proof-based investing could modernize due diligence
How zero-knowledge proofs, embedded property data, proof of occupancy, and automated compliance systems could allow investors to verify deals digitally in real time.


Why operators benefit from tokenization too
Tokenization doesn’t just help investors, it reduces manual data rooms, accelerates fundraising, broadens buyer pools, and streamlines reporting for property owners and sponsors.


Why demographic shifts may accelerate adoption faster than regulation
Younger investors and future institutional leaders are increasingly comfortable with blockchain-native systems, creating long-term adoption tailwinds independent of government mandates.


How tokenization compares to REITs and private funds
The trade-offs between liquidity, governance, transparency, and access and why tokenized structures may eventually sit between traditional public and private real estate vehicles.


About the Guest:
Phil Bak is the Founder and CEO of Skyline Standard, a platform building the trust layer for tokenized commercial real estate through standardized, proof-based investment infrastructure. A two-time founder with two successful exits, Phil previously served as CEO of Armada ETF Advisors, a REIT-specialty asset manager later acquired by Inveniam. He is also the host of The Phil Bak Podcast and author of Bakstack on Substack, where he writes about the future of asset management, tokenization, and private markets. 

Episode Chapters:
[00:00:00] Intro
[00:02:35] Breaking Down Tokenization


[00:06:35] Understanding Ownership, Rights, And Liability


[00:09:20] Making Institutional Due Diligence Faster


[00:12:01] Solving The Real Estate Trust Layer


[00:16:21] Why Ratings Infrastructure Matters


[00:24:00] How Skyline Standard Supports Tokenized Deals


[00:30:33] Benefits Of Tokenized Real Estate Over REITs


[00:41:13] Building Confidence For A Trillion-Dollar Market 


Quotes:

1. "Tokenization is just a better way to take assets, secure them to a blockchain, and transact with them in a way that everyone knows has more transparency and potential for liquidity." 
2. "Every asset class that has gotten to a state of liquidity has been preceded by some trust layer that investors could look at and feel comfortable making investments."
3. "These trading rails work just fine for cryptocurrency, and when you take a real asset with tangible value and put it on the same rails, there's no reason to think it won't work."
4. "If we build this the right way and help people take their properties and automate their reconciliations, there's a natural virality to this and growth trajectory."
5. "The whole point is to make real estate investing easier and more accessible, not to force everyone to become an expert in crypto or zero knowledge proofs."

Episode Resources:

• Phil Bak on LinkedIn

• Skyline Standard Website

REdirect is handcrafted by our friends over at: fame.so

Richard Barkham spent over a decade as Global Chief Economist at CBRE, leading a research team of nearly 600 people. In this conversation, Jonathan Spitz and Storm Murphy sit down with Richard to talk through where we are in the real estate cycle, what risks investors should be paying attention to, and where the best opportunities are today. They also get into the craft of communicating n a fast-moving market — why research firms have moved away from long white papers toward shorter, more digestible content, and the role storytelling plays in translating complex topics.

A few of the topics covered:

• Why Richard is more cautious now than he was a year ago
• What today's pricing is really telling us about the market
• How the Fed quietly avoided a banking crisis in 2022 and 2023
• Why the housing shortage makes multifamily the cleanest place to invest right now
• The long-term opportunity in downtown urban cores as offices convert to housing
• Why the "wall of maturities" headlines rarely play out the way people expect

A candid, practical conversation for anyone trying to make sense of the real estate market today.

About the Guest:

Richard Barkham is a globally recognized expert in macroeconomics and real estate cycles. He previously served as Global Chief Economist and Global Head of Research at CBRE, where he led more than 600 research professionals worldwide. He is currently a Senior Fellow and Lecturer in Real Estate at Harvard University’s Graduate School of Design and Professor of the Practice at the University of North Carolina’s Kenan-Flagler Business School.


Richard is a Member of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors (MRICS) and a Counselor of Real Estate (CRE), and he continues to advise institutional investors on navigating global property markets through economic cycles.







Episode Chapters:

[00:00] – Intro


[05:16] – Creating Content That Caters to Shorter Attention Spans


[09:18] – Navigating Shocks: From The Great Financial Crisis To Covid


[20:09] – Banking Stress, The Fed’s Response, And The Wall Of Maturities


[29:07] – Where Should Investors Deploy Capital Today?


[36:20] – Is Now The Time To Seize Opportunity In Commercial Real Estate?


[40:03] – Downtown Revival And The Office-To-Residential Shift



Quotes:

1. "You've got to keep pace with how social media is serving up information and content, which is in small bite sized chunks."

1. "I'm not convinced that real estate pricing is completely advantageous at the moment. The spread between cap rates and bond rates is about 250 basis points, well below the long term average." 

1. "Real estate is cyclical, and we've definitely been through the downswing of the cycle. As long as the macroeconomy keeps growing, I think there are opportunities for steady gains in real estate."

1. "The pace at which you had to update your view of the market went from quarterly to monthly to almost to weekly, and then you really had to focus hard on keeping in contact with the professionals on the ground."

1. "People still want to live and work and play in downtown areas. If you can be part of that in a constructive way, you could see outperformance with patient capital over the next ten or fifteen years." 

Episode Resources:

• 
  Richard Barkham on LinkedIn
• Company Website:
  • CBRE

REdirect is handcrafted by our friends over at: fame.so

What if the public market is telling a completely different story than private real estate and both can’t be right?


In this episode of REdirect, Jonathan Spitz and Storm Murphy sit down with John Pawlowski, Managing Director at Green Street, a leading independent real estate research firm, to explore one of the most compelling dislocations in today’s market: apartment REITs trading 13–25% below their net asset value.


Drawing on Green Street’s 40-year research methodology, John explains why this disconnect exists, how government-backed financing advantages are skewing valuations, and why the current environment is triggering a wave of privatizations across the REIT landscape.


The conversation goes deeper into how investors should interpret NAV discounts (and their limitations), why public and private market signals are diverging, and what that means for forward-looking capital allocation. John also breaks down where real opportunity exists today, from senior housing benefiting from demographic tailwinds to single-family rental REITs trading at steep discounts and why the “housing shortage” narrative is far more nuanced than most investors realize.


Whether you’re a public market investor, private real estate operator, or allocator seeking relative value, this episode offers a clear framework for navigating market dislocations and positioning for what may be the next major opportunity in housing.


What You'll Learn:
How NAV analysis actually works (and its limitations)
Why NAV discounts are useful for identifying relative value across sectors over time but not reliable as short-term timing tools for individual investments.


Why apartment REITs trade at persistent discounts
How government-backed financing (Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac) gives private buyers cheaper leverage, structurally pressuring public REIT valuations compared to other sectors like industrial and self-storage.


How to spot real estate arbitrage opportunities
When public and private market pricing diverge significantly, it signals mispricing. Today’s REIT discounts suggest either public markets are oversold or private valuations need to adjust.


Why rent growth expectations need a reset
Even as supply moderates, slower job growth means rent increases will likely remain modest, not the sharp rebound many investors are underwriting.


Why the housing shortage narrative is misleading
Shortages exist but are concentrated in specific segments like affordable housing and single-family homes, while many apartment markets face oversupply.


Where to deploy capital in housing today
Why senior housing offers higher yields and strong NOI growth potential, why select apartment markets like San Francisco may be recovering, and why single-family rental REITs present discounted public market exposure.


How demographic trends shape long-term returns
Why the “silver tsunami” is creating powerful tailwinds for senior housing and how demographic shifts should influence portfolio positioning.


About the Guest:
John Pawlowski is a Managing Director at Green Street, where he leads research coverage across apartments, single-family rentals, and manufactured housing, overseeing analysis on roughly 10 publicly traded real estate companies. A widely cited voice in the industry, he has been featured in The Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg, and CNBC, and is a member of the National Multifamily Housing Council (NMHC). Prior to joining Green Street in 2014, John worked as a financial analyst at JPMorgan Chase. 
Episode Chapters:
[00:00:00] Intro
[00:03:20] How Green Street Values REITs Through NAV And Private Market Signals


[00:06:06] What Public-Private Pricing Gaps Reveal About Real Estate Value


[00:11:02] Why REIT Privatizations Are Accelerating Across Real Estate


[00:19:41] Apartments, Supply Peaks, And Why A V-Shaped Recovery Is Unlikely


[00:23:39] Residential Market Selection, Class B Demand, And The Housing Shortage Debate


[00:35:36] Which Housing Sectors Look Most Compelling Over The Next Five Years


[00:40:03] Career Advice, Key Takeaways, And Where To Follow John Pawlowski



Quotes:

1. "To be really good at valuing REIT securities, we need to know the private market real estate trends really well." 

1. "NAV discounts and premiums are very helpful in flagging a particularly cheap and particularly expensive stock, particularly when the premiums or discounts are large in nature and persistent in magnitude."

1. "If you're going to deploy capital in the private market, I'd probably be acquiring at maybe a low five cap rate versus building to what I think is a six, but the six is really illusory and a bird in the bush."

1. "REITs are highly correlated to underlying private market real estate trends - the value of a REIT is just a function of the value of the underlying properties."

1. "I think it's different by shelter, it's different by price point, but in general, the narrative of housing shortage is painted with too broad of a brush and almost used as a lazy check the box on investment committee." 

REdirect is handcrafted by our friends over at: fame.so

What if today’s turbulence in commercial real estate isn’t disorder but the cycle unfolding as it should? Returning to REdirect, Richard Hill brings further perspective on how to navigate this moment. Jonathan and Storm explore his framework for reading cycles: listed REITs lead, private market valuations adjust later, and distress in debt comes last.


The conversation moves into practical, actionable insights. Richard explains why tiering across property type and quality now dominates performance, why modern logistics and Class B housing offer selective opportunity, and why data centers should be viewed as infrastructure plays rather than speculative tech bets. He highlights secondary and overlooked markets poised for growth, from Knoxville to Columbus to Greenville, driven by industrial reshoring, AI demand, and long-term demographic shifts.


Listeners will also learn how to think about CRE like equity sector rotation, why patience and operational skill outweigh financial engineering, and the importance of focusing on net operating income and unlevered IRRs over headline cap rates. 


For anyone deploying capital, evaluating risk, or trying to separate signal from noise, Richard provides a clear, disciplined roadmap for the next phase of CRE - emphasizing humility, long-term thinking, and simplicity.


What You'll Learn:
Build vs. Buy - when it actually makes senseWhy high construction costs + below-replacement pricing can still create rare development windows, especially in logistics.


Why unlevered IRR beats cap rates
How focusing on true project returns (not headline yields) can justify selective development, including data centers.


How “tiering” reveals where growth really is
Top-tier assets are winning while older stock struggles and why Class B housing and modern logistics stand out.


Why CRE behaves more like sector rotation than one asset class
Different property types move on different timelines and the averages hide opportunity.


The lower-risk path to data centers
Why “powered shell” development lets investors earn strong returns without becoming a tech company.


Office isn’t dead - it’s divided
Most vacancy sits in weaker buildings, while high-quality assets may quietly present long-term value.


AI + reshoring as long-term tailwinds
From data centers to the new “battery belt,” industrial demand is being reshaped for the next decade.


Simple rules that outlast every cycle
Stay humble, think long-term, and keep the math straightforward - quality + valuation still drive outcomes.

About the Guest:
Richard Hill is Senior Managing Director and Global Head of Real Estate Research & Strategy at Principal Asset Management, where he leads global research, shapes capital allocation strategy, and delivers the firm’s real estate outlook to clients. With more than two decades of experience across derivatives, capital markets, and research, Richard previously led real estate strategy and research at Cohen & Steers and headed Commercial Real Estate Research at Morgan Stanley. 

Episode Chapters:
[00:00:00] Intro
[00:01:34] – 2026 Market Outlook

[00:02:52] – Build Versus Buy: Why Modern Logistics Development Still Makes Sense

[00:05:26] – Class B Opportunities, NOI Growth, And The Cap Rate Debate

[00:16:39] – Employment Trends, AI Spending, And Consumer Strength

[00:17:41] – Investing in Data Centers 

[00:28:40] – The Rebirth Of Secondary Markets And Transformational Economic Booms

[00:33:18] – Three Nuggets of Wisdom on Investing in Real Estate


Quotes:

1. "Commercial real estate is not just about interest rates. Net operating income growth matters, and financing conditions matter as well."
2. "You need to focus on net operating income growth. If you can find the right property types, the right markets that are achieving that NOI growth, you're gonna do really well this cycle."
3. "We're just real estate investors. We're focused on acquiring land in markets where there is always going to be a need for data centers, and we have a very clear path to getting power."
4. "Markets that are perceived to be small might not be small ten years from now. Richmond, Virginia, Nashville, Tennessee, Jacksonville, Florida - these are now huge markets that were overlooked before."
5. "Be humble because you're going to get it wrong. Think long term because this is a longer-term asset class. And don't complicate it, this is not rocket science."

Episode Resources:

• Richard Hill on LinkedIn

• Company Website:
  • Principal Asset Management

REdirect is handcrafted by our friends over at: fame.so

What if today’s turbulence in commercial real estate isn’t dysfunction but the cycle working exactly as it should?


In this conversation, Jonathan and Storm are joined by Richard Hill, who brings decades of perspective across derivatives, capital markets, public REITs, and private real estate. Richard lays out his framework for understanding cycles - why listed markets trough first, private valuations adjust later, and distress in the debt markets often shows up last.


From there, the discussion turns tactical: how rising rates compressed valuations even as fundamentals held up, why “tiering” across markets and property types is now impossible to ignore, and why this cycle belongs to investors who can genuinely operate, not simply rely on appreciation.


For anyone allocating capital, underwriting risk, or trying to make sense of what comes next, Richard offers a grounded, data-driven roadmap for navigating the next phase of CRE - with patience, objectivity, and discipline.


What You'll Learn:
- Why cycles don’t move all at once and how to read the “trough sequence”.
 Listed REITs reset first, private valuations follow, and debt distress lags - understanding this cadence helps investors avoid panic-selling and recognize early recovery signals.


- How rising interest rates caused valuations to fall, even while fundamentals held steady
 When financing costs spike but rents stay flat, bond math forces prices down. The selloff wasn’t irrational, it was mechanical.


- Housing shortage vs. housing mismatch: what investors often get wrong
 The U.S. isn’t simply underbuilt. It’s misbuilt: too much Class A in hot markets, not enough attainable housing - creating opportunity for selective, disciplined capital.


- Why the next decade will reward operators, not speculators
 Appreciation-driven returns masked weak execution in the 2010–2022 era. Now leasing, expense control, and asset management drive alpha.


- How to evaluate markets beyond hype headlines
 Household formation data, not population alone, reveals oversupply risks and hidden outperformers, from Louisville to Knoxville to Huntsville.


- Why distress can signal the beginning of opportunity, not the end
 Lenders resolve problems late in the cycle. Rising delinquencies often indicate acceptance, stabilization, and attractive entry points.


- Why today quietly resembles the late 1990s playbook
 As investors rediscover income stability and diversification, CRE may once again outperform broader risk assets despite macro uncertainty.

About the Guest:
Richard Hill is Senior Managing Director and Global Head of Real Estate Research & Strategy atPrincipal Asset Management, where he leads global research, shapes capital allocation strategy, and delivers the firm’s real estate outlook to clients. With more than two decades of experience across derivatives, capital markets, and research, Richard previously led real estate strategy and research at Cohen & Steers and headed Commercial Real Estate Research at Morgan Stanley. 

Episode Chapters:

[00:00:00] Intro


[00:02:41] – Richard Hill’s Journey: From Wall Street To Head Of Global Research


[00:05:26] – Understanding Real Estate Cycles: Public REITs And Debt Markets


[00:12:32] – The Reasons Behind Resilient Global Economies


[00:14:35] – Financial Engineering Vs. Fundamentals In A Higher-Rate World


[00:23:32] – Supply, Demand, And Market Selection: Where Opportunities Are Emerging


[00:27:42] – Build Vs. Buy: Replacement Costs, Tariffs, And The Development Slowdown


Quotes:

1. "Debt markets drive commercial real estate because it's inherently a levered asset class, and understanding how the debt markets are influencing valuations is really important." 
2. "We do not have an undersupply of housing problem in The United States. We have a housing mismatch problem in The United States."
3. "If fundamentals are holding up well, why did property valuations go down so much? Your cost of financing went higher, and if your fundamentals are stable but not improving, that means your margins compressed." 
4. "People like objectivity. And if you're true to yourself and you remain objective and you're steadfast over time, I think people really come to appreciate that."
5. "Control what you can control, which is just focusing on net operating income growth, and if you can do that across markets, I think you can be successful."

Episode Resources:

• Richard Hill on LinkedIn

• Company Website:
  • Principal Asset Management

REdirect is handcrafted by our friends over at: fame.so