The Rights Track

In Episode 7 of Series 4, Todd talks with Baroness Lola Young of Hornsey, a cross bench member of the House of Lords currently working to amend the Modern Slavery Act and Chair of the All Party Parliamentary Group on Ethics and Sustainability in Fashion. 

00.00 -  01.57

As a member of the House of Lords Baroness Young became interested in ethical fashion due partly to her own lack of knowledge about the fashion industry but also the need to focus on the issue of modern slavery in the fashion industry, and the need to make politicians “sit up and take notice”. 

1.57 – 11.09

There is a suggestion that people need to be more aware of where their clothes come from, how they are made and what is happening in the supply chains.

• First seeds sown by the Rana Plaza disaster in Bangladesh which raised awareness of the possible links between fast, throwaway fashion and elements of modern slavery

But Baroness Young says this requires:

• Moving public attitudes away from notions of cheap throw-away fashion
• Changing business models in the industry; the example cited is the Zara business model 

Demand in the fashion industry is volatile. Zara is set up to respond rapidly to surges and changes in demand, which is why it is so successful. It operates a system of real-time delivery but that often means sub-contracting out production to meet very short deadlines, but with decreasing control over the impact on the supply chain and its implications for forced overtime.

Some companies have a supply chain involving 10,000 suppliers.  

Fashion trends are constantly changing so there is constant pressure on suppliers to meet very tight production deadlines, which has additional ramifications for the labour force and human rights. 

11.09 – 13.00

As a member of the House of Lords Baroness Young believes she is in a good position to influence policy making in the following ways:

• As a member of parliament she finds it relatively easy to build a rapport with companies to develop dialogue and to help them improve their internal policies towards meeting the conditions of the modern slavery act
• She has access to government and through that influence on policy making
• Her work on cross party groups is also influential through the collection of evidence and the publication of reports

13.00 -  14.20

Emphasis placed on the systematic and rigorous collection of evidence rather than reliance on the anecdotal, for example the work of The Rights Lab, and Todd adds:

• Evidence is hard to collect
• Victims are hard to find
• Practices are difficult to observe

However, advances in science and technology are now being used in evidence collection.Todd mentions Rights Lab work using satellites to detect modern slavery. 

 14.20 – end

The discussion shifts to consider how sport and modern slavery intersect. Baroness Young finds that there is little realisation within the business of sport of how it can impact on human rights.

One of the roles of the All Party Parliamentary Group is to encourage sports organisations to recognise the existence of human rights issues within supply chains to include equality, discrimination, modern slavery and trafficking. Baroness Young notes that:

• Large sports organisations are notable by their absence at conferences on modern slavery
• The modern slavery statements of Premier League football clubs are "inadequate" 
• Football clubs do not have statements on attaining SDG goal 8.7

Todd adds that there is a wide range of activity to investigate. Anecdotally, many branches of sport have human rights issues but hard evidence is in short supply. These include:

• The manufacture of the football kit
• The manufacture of the footballs, memorabilia and so on
• The recruitment of the athletes
• The Construction of the stadia 

All of these involve large and complex supply chains, which are very difficult to monitor.

In Episode 6 of Series 4, we talk to James Cockayne, Director of Centre for Policy Research at the United Nations University in New York. He is the Project Director for Delta 8.7 – The Alliance 8.7 Knowledge Platform, and is Head of the Secretariat for the Liechtenstein Initiative for a Financial Sector Commission on Modern Slavery and Human Trafficking.

 0.00– 1.57

 Todd begins by reflecting on the size of the UN and asks James how it helps us understand the fight to end modern slavery.

• James agrees that the UN is a huge organisation and, as far as tackling slavery is concerned, it is:
  1. A forum for member states to talk about global problems like modern slavery.
  2. A set of technical agencies undertaking research to help us understand what modern slavery looks like on the ground.
  3. A set of organisations that can respond on the ground e.g. peacekeeping in conflict situations, delivering education programmes (Unicef, Global Children’s Fund) through to protection of workers’ rights by the International Labour Organisation
• James argues this allows the UN to look at the problem holistically revealing how it manifests itself differently in different places.

 1.57– 4.56

The discussion moves to whether the UN treats modern slavery as a human rights problem. James says it does but that it is not straightforward because:

• Modern slavery plays out differently in different contexts.
• Modern slavery is treated differently by member states and described and viewed differently within the UN system.
• Some parts of the UN see modern or contemporary slavery as a human rights problem based on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, whilst others see it through the lens of labour rights or as a criminal justice problem.
• Todd points out that quite a bit of modern slavery discourse surrounds conflict and humanitarian law.
• James agrees - in the last few years the UN has been grappling with the connections between these different manifestations and how to respond to it. He offers the example of ISIS/Daesh in Iraq and Syria who use slavery to generate money, to attract fighters by offering enslaved women and girls and dominate the local population. This leads to mass displacement creating its own vulnerabilities to trafficking in Lebanon and other surrounding countries that host refugees. These flow on into North Africa and Europe creating new problems demonstrating the complexities in the way the problems connect.
• James suggests that the UN is present all along the chain and that there are human rights issues across the chain, but they are probably playing out differently in each case. 

4.56 – 6.07

Todd moves the discussion on to modern slavery in a business context, mentioning the UN Global Compact and the Ruggie principles.  

• James agrees modern slavery is increasingly a part of this but asserts that the anti-slavery movement “has been a little slow on the uptake” in engaging with the broader business and human rights discourse.
• He believes lessons are being learned by business and by government about how to ensure respect for human rights in the business world and that this is flowing into the modern slavery movement and having a positive impact.

6.07 – 11.48

Todd asks how the UN is moving towards the realisation of its 17 Sustainable Development Goals and associated 169 targets especially those relating to modern slavery.

• James points again to the size and complexity of the UN and the ambitious set of goals and targets at the heart of its operations. He explains how progression in one area might have a knock-on in others (both positive and negative).
• For modern slavery this has meant having to think about how efforts to end it connect to broader efforts to achieve sustainable development, e.g. education, gender, work or environmental goals and targets. This requires a more integrated approach and for individual agencies to look beyond their own self-interest.
• James outlines how Alliance 8.7, led by the ILO is at the heart of this. He describes it as “a multi-stakeholder circus tent” where everyone is welcome and can test the effectiveness of their responses. He explains the science of this is interesting as measuring the incidence of modern slavery is very difficult. He adds that the work of Rights Lab and within the UN has led to major strides in this area. There is still work to be done to establish whether they are meeting their targets.
• The best estimate from the ILO from 2016 is 40.3 million slaves in the world meaning 9,000 people a day would need to be moved out of modern slavery to achieve the target. As things stand, James acknowledged they don’t know if the figure is moving up or down.
• Todd adds that the number of people moving into modern slavery also needs to be taken into account. James agrees and mentions that Brazil, which has a good track record, has removed 50,000 slaves across 20 years suggesting there is a long way to go. Good research and evidence is fundamental to progress as is the availability of funding.
• Todd agrees and outlines the problems with statistics in this area.

 11:39 – 12.49

 Todd asks about Delta 8.7 and its relation to Alliance 8.7? 

• Delta 8.7 is the knowledge platform of the alliance created by UN university centre for policy research.
• The aim is to make it easier for policy actors to understand the evidence in individual countries. James continues to explain how this is done using individual country dashboards which include easy to access and understand information on modern slavery along with other local factors.

 12.49 – 14.07

In February 2019 there was an event called Code 8.7 which Todd asks James to talk about.

• James explains it is an exciting new initiative with other partners including Rights Lab, The Computing Community Consortium, The Turing Institute, Arizona State University and Tech Against Trafficking.
• Aim is to explore the use of artificial intelligence to help solve the problem of modern slavery more quickly. For example, image recognition using satellite imagery through to guided decision making for survivor case management.

 14.07 – 16.27

Todd talks about previous podcast episodes with Patrick Ball, the Human Rights Data Analyst Group Executive Director, about machine learning and the discourse of perpetrators and Dr Doreen Boyd who used satellite imagery to identify brick kilns in South Asia. He asks whether this is evidence the UN would consider important in the fight against modern slavery.

• James says that we have to use every source of data available, and that artificial intelligence is important to sort non-traditional data streams. He believes that Code 8.7 offers new analytical pathways into the problem and also practical applications for helping accelerate response.
• Todd suggests James’ background as a lawyer is crucial in telling what machine learning and A.I. to look for. There is a fear that natural biases from coders will lead to a misuse of these new tools meaning that definitions and legal parameters become more important.

16.27 – End

With this in mind Todd asks what is the core content of modern slavery?

• James says target 8.7 “talks in one breath about modern slavery, forced labour, human trafficking and the worst forms of child labour” and believes this sends a powerful signal to political actors that there is a need for a collaborative response.
• Modern slavery itself is not a term of international law but an umbrella discourse term to encapsulate a range of things.
• A group of academic statisticians led by the ILO, has created a statistical methodology providing a basis for national survey methodologies giving us a common starting point regardless of the varying legal definitions. This will take several years to get results on the ground but James hopes other technologies will also evolve in this time to make a meaningful difference.
• He concludes by saying survivors have to be at the heart of this process with their explicit consent to avoid traumatising them and increasing vulnerability. Todd agrees and highlights the dilemma in human rights arguing that they are articulated differently in different areas. Emphasising the need to avoid a dissonance between the ivory towers of the UN and the reality on the ground.
• James says the first 3 words of the UN charter  are “We the peoples” and then it goes on to talk about countries which creates a natural tension between intergovernmental politics and the people we are supposed to be serving.
• He asserts that the UN have to engage with the communities they are trying to help without being patronising.

 Previous Rights Track podcasts of interest

Eye in the sky: rooting out slavery from space Dr Doreen Boyd on how satellite imagery is being used to root out slavery

How can statistics advance human rights? Patrick Ball about how statistics can be used to advance and protect human rights

Crunching numbers: modern slavery and statistics Sir Bernard Silverman about modern slavery and statistics listen to 

References

1. Hopgood, The Endtimes of Human Rights (New York: Cornell University Press, 2013).

In Episode 5 of Series 4, we talk to Pradeep Narayanan Director-Research & Capacity Building and Anusha Chandrasekharan (Senior Programme Manager - Communications) from Praxis, an India-based not-for-profit organisation which works to democratise development processes and institutions in order to ensure that the voices of the poor are heard and acted upon. 

00.00 – 3.39

• Praxis is a development organisation based in India, aimed at supporting poor and marginalised communities.
• It works with the most marginalised communities who would otherwise be excluded such as the “dalit”communities, and particularly dalit women, on matters which are important to them.
• 17% of the Indian population are dalit(untouchables), which is the lowest category of people in the Indian caste system.
• Although it is easy to gain access to these communities in both rural hamlets and urban slums, the challenge is to how to get their concerns in front of policy makers.
• Referred to as ground level planning, a range of methods are used; participatory video, digital media and face to face meetings with policy makers.

 3.40 – 12.10

The discussion moves on to describe the relationship between the dalit and higher caste groups in relation to bonded labour and forms of modern slavery. 

• Modern forms of slavery in India have emerged from the caste system where high caste landowners engaged dalit as bonded labour. The dalit were effectively indentured to landowners, working on the land and receiving various forms of payment.
• This practice was abolished by The Bonded Labour Act 1976.
• Urbanisation has led to significant numbers of dalit living in underserved settlements or slums, seeking work in manufacturing industry in the city.
• They are vulnerable to exploitation and a system has evolved very similar to traditional bonded labour whereby money is advanced to the poor and marginalised, who then are obliged to work to pay off the debt.
• The very poor are vulnerable because they do not have easy access to cheap or safe credit and so cannot cope with emergencies that may arise, for example ill health, or other expenses such as weddings, funerals, and at festival times. Employers’ agents take advantage of the situation to advance money to vulnerable families who are then required to “work off” the loan. This involves long hours, bad working conditions, physical and sometimes sexual abuse of women.
• There are also instances of people not being paid for their work; e.g. the brick industry.
• The workers are not free to leave. Employers operate via a climate of fear and intimidation which is used to control the workers.
• Working with the labourers is challenging because they are in fear of the employers, and unwilling to speak about their situation or even to accept that they are in bondage. 

09.55 – 14.20. 

At this point a link is made with  research by Austin Choi Fitzpatrick, who writes of a cultural acceptance of debt bondage in the villages, which is also borne out by the experience of the speakers.

This acceptance on the part of the labourers creates a situation whereby labour exploitation can occur. The question is how to change the labourer’s awareness of their situation. Praxis is working with Freedom Fund on a programme which involves; 

• The formation of an action research group within a community which collects case study information, identifies what drives debt bondage, for example health, and works with the group to understand the link between poor health and bondage.
• The collection of evidence within and outside the group leads on to discussion, and the group are able to define what they understand by the term bonded labour and to relate it to examples of bonded labour within their local community.
• Once the group have identified examples of bonded labour the next step is to encourage action at the local level, which may be in terms of questioning traditional attitudes and practices and raising petitions.

 14.20 – 17.17

The discussion now moves on to review the outcomes of the interventions made by Praxis. The main outcomes are:

• At the local level the development of action groups and raising community awareness is moving people out of debt bondage. However, on its own this does not offer the poor a viable alternative.
• There is very little data on bonded labour. Consequently, it is difficult to get policy makers to address the issue. Work with the Freedom Fund initiative feeds into this issue and is helping to raise awareness.
• They are seeking to re-open the discussion on the Bonded Labour Act 1976 to develop discourse with the government.
• They also want the focus to move away from citizen – state, and to broaden the focus to include major businesses and in particular the supply chains of those businesses.
• Praxis is a partner in Corporate Responsibility Watch which monitors the top 100 Indian businesses looking a number of indicators including their supply chains to see how compliant they are with labour laws, whilst at the same time influencing government policy.
• This is, however, a slow, incremental process. 

17.17 – end 

Todd reflects on the work of Amartya Sen on democracy and famineand wonders whether in the world’s largest democracy whether a similar argument could be applied to debt bondage and bonded labour.

The situation in India presents a number of constraints.

• The democratic process, although not broken, is flawed.
• Whilst current laws list basic entitlements which should be open to all this is not the case
• Two related issues are; getting the government to look seriously at the links between poverty, social rights, and bonded labour, and also to be able to hold government to account.
• A further constraint is that, in this multi-cultural society, development is not yet seen as the sole issue to be addressed.
• Removing the barriers to achieving basic rights is the key because it is the barriers which cause vulnerable communities to become trapped into bonded labour in the first place.

In Episode 4 of Series 4, we talk to the Right Reverend Dr Alastair Redfern,  Chair of Trustees at Sarum College and, until recently, Bishop of Derby and member of the House of Lords committee which helped to frame the Modern Slavery Act 2015.

0.00 – 5.35

Todd begins by asking Dr. Redfern to describe the Clewer Initiative, and how he became involved. 

• The initiative is the Church of England’s response to modern slavery although in reality it works closely with the Catholic Church and other faiths.
• In its own words it focuses on  “enabling Church of England dioceses and wider Church networks to develop strategies to detect modern slavery in their communities and help provide victim support and care.”
• His participation arose out of his work with the food industry in Lincolnshire and in Derby. He was approached by nuns from the Clewer House of Mercy based now at Ripon, who invited him to become involved.
• The initiative, which is funded by the Clewer House order, involves building a network of modern slavery practitioners to share best practice and for professionals with expertise in different fields to work alongside volunteers who are better placed to provide comfort and emotional support to the victims.
• Todd suggests there are parallels with the Baptist church in the USA and the Civil Rights movement.
• Dr Redfern sees the role of the church as helping to connect the police, local authorities, charities and voluntary organisations.
• The Clewer Initiative is not a service provider. It aims to convene, enable, encourage and provide practical support.

5.35 – 7.40

Discussion of the Clewer Initiative’s Car Wash App as an example of the practical efforts it is making to tackle modern slavery. 

• A simple to use app which can increase awareness of modern slavery in plain sight.
• The app provides a valuable extra source of intelligence material to the police
• Todd points out that it is an example of crowd sourcing technology, which can engage the public with a countrywide reach across over 16,000 parishes.

7.40 – 10.00

Todd asks how bridges are built between faiths to work on the problem of modern slavery - mentions The Santa Marta Group as an example of another faith group that is involved

• Dr Redfern says that working with other faiths is not a top down process. Many faiths are locally autonomous and not subject to central direction. It works by inviting people to participate on their own terms and to use the tools and information provided in ways that work best for them.
• The approach also requires sensitivity, an understanding of cultural context when working with different faiths and cultures

10.00 – 13.40

Todd points out that some passages in the bible appear to endorse slavery and asks how the church comes to terms with that.

Dr Redfern suggests that the church can approach this in two ways.

• One approach is to say that it was historically contextual and that times have changed along with attitudes.
• The other view concerns an interpretation of what slavery means. He sees two forms of slavery.
• The abusive, controlling form or modern slavery
• People in general are enslaved by their own selfish needs and wants, some of which may be connected to the exploitation of individuals
• He adds that we are all complicit to some degree in supporting modern slavery for example mobile phones may well have components that have been manufactured using slave labour.

13.40 – 16.39 

SDG 8.7 commits to the ending of modern slavery by 2030. Todd asks Dr Redfern to comment on whether he thinks this is achievable.

• He sees this as a political target and wouldn’t want to commit to it.
• He talks of encouraging signs. Set against the backdrop of the state retreating from the oversight of public life, business is becoming an increasingly important player in global citizenship.
• There is a clear inference that consumer pressure may become important with major companies in moving away from products produced using slave labour.
• He is less optimistic about the role of policy making in supporting the process.

16.39 – 19.38

Todd’s final question is about the impact  the church, though its bishops can have on policy making in The House of Lords.

• Faith leaders sit on committees that help to frame legislation.
• House of Lords includes numbers of appointees with a wide range of backgrounds experience and expertise which can be drawn upon. This may be a better model for governance going forward.

In Episode 3 of Series 4 Dr Patricia Hynes from the University of Bedfiordshire and Patrick Burland, Senior Project Officer for Human Trafficking and Modern Slavery for the UN Migration Agency (IOM) discuss their research which looks to improve understanding of the causes, determinants and ‘vulnerabilities’ to human trafficking as well as the support needs of people from countries who have experienced trafficking into the UK. 

0.00 – 2.32 The episode begins with a short clip of Kieran Guilbert of the Thomson Reuters Foundation who spoke to the Rights Track about a forthcoming project profiling the lived experiences of people who have been trafficked. Kieran begins by referencing contemporary examples of stories from survivors of slavery. His view is that while we know a great deal about trafficking we know little of how victims are helped to recover.

He speaks of a multi-media project featuring the survivors of slavery which takes as its starting point the idea that freedom from slavery is not the end of the story but the beginning of a new story which includes healthcare, counselling, education jobs and integration back into society.

 2.33 – 3.07

Todd refers to the clip and asks Patricia Hynes to comment on Kieran’s suggestion that the conversation about trafficking needs to “move forward”. He then goes on to ask about the model of vulnerability that they have developed.

3.08 – 5.25

Patricia agrees it’s important to look forward, but doesn’t accept that we have full knowledge of what trafficking involves given that:

• the nature of exploitation is evolving
• whilst we know a great deal about sexual exploitation, little is known about the trafficking of men and boys from the countries they have studied
• there are gaps in national statistics on trafficking

 In her view there is a need to focus on:

• plugging the gaps in our knowledge re trafficking
• identifying the next step is for survivors
• finding out more about needs of survivors or how they recover from trafficking

 So look forwards but also look backwards.

 5.26 – 6.05

Todd asks why their research focuses on people from Nigeria, Albania and Vietnam when the largest proportion of survivors listed in the National Referral Mechanism(NRM) are UK nationals.

6.06 – 7.08

In reply Patricia gives the following reasons: 

• they were in the top 4 countries re: NRM referrals
• the focus on UK nationals is very much child sexual exploitation whereas they wanted to be able to use the International Organization for Migration’s determinants of migrant vulnerability model
• for funding purposes the countries had to be ODA eligible countries(the UK is not)

7.09 – 9.27

Todd moves on to ask how survivors can look forward to a positive future.

According to Patrick research conducted in the field indicated a lack of knowledge around trafficking to the UK and what support was given to victims on their return. However, given that it is difficult for the victims to remain in the UK in the longer term, it appears that on their return to their home country they find it difficult to access comprehensive support and assistance programs, leaving them vulnerable to being re-trafficked.

9.28 – 9.37

Todd asks Patrick to explain the IOM model of determinants of vulnerability

9.38 – 12.19

Patrick outlines 4 levels of determinants that affect vulnerability prior to, during and after the migration experience. It seeks to understand what might provide protection and resilience to the individual during the migration journey.

1. Individual - age gender, education, wealth/income/employment
2. Household and family - size, household wealth/family background
3. Community - how protective is the community of individuals, beliefs and practices - found to be a significant factor in placing people in vulnerable situations
4. Structural - access to safe migration opportunities, governance, rule of law, corruption, the socio-economic situation within the country

12.20 – 12.54

Todd summarises this as looking at vulnerability “from the micro to the macro”. He asks whether established cultural practices lead people into being trafficked unwittingly.

12.55 – 13.53

Patricia agrees and says their research in Albania confirmed this. She talks of a “code of silence” where trafficking is not mentioned.

She points to gender imbalance and the inability of the state to protect individuals as structural aspects of vulnerability and confirms that income inequality is also a major factor in vulnerability.

13.54 – 14.38

Todd refers to an earlier Rights Track episode with Austin Chioi-Fitzpatrick who has conducted research on the perpetrators of slavery and asks whether, during their research, they obtained information on the traffickers themselves.

14.39  - 17.35

Patrick replies that across the 3 countries the profiles of traffickers can be quite different. However they able to investigate the ways in which traffickers are able to recruit their victims and the role of households and communities in influencing the decision to engage with a potential trafficker.

They found that:

• traffickers often have strong connections directly or through intermediaries to the victim via family or community which develops feelings of trust and security in the individual.
• these people may have a higher status within the community which can create pressure on an individual to engage in the process
• the people approaching the individual may or may not be aware of the potential for trafficking to take place 

• migration involves connecting an individual to a complex and shifting network of contacts and intermediaries, starting within their family and community but ending up elsewhere.

17.36 – 18.43 

Todd moves on to consider the situation in the UK and the proposed Victim Support Bill.He asks two related questions:

1. What is the status of the victims; will they be returned to their home country or do they have asylum status how many?
2. Is the Victim Support Bill a welcome development?

18.44 – 20.04

Patricia says she supports the Victim Support Bill although she argues that it represents a beginning

• She supports the extension of the 45 day reception period which she argues is not long enough
• She suggests that even a 12 month extension period may not be long enough. Research shows it takes a long time for individuals to feel safe, secure and to be able to talk about their experiences given the extent of the traumas they have experienced.
• She Infers that the current system in the UK is not as supportive as it might be

20.05 –  21.37 

Patrick refers to research he undertook with representatives from NAPTIP (National Agency for the Prohibition of Trafficking in Persons, Nigeria)

In all they have only supported 6 victims of trafficking who had returned to Nigeria from the UK. The assumption is that the number is greater given that Nigeria ranks in the top 5 NRM referral countries and this suggests that very few victims returning to Nigeria are able to access assistance and support back in Nigeria.

21.38 – 21.54

Todd asks about plans to share the research findings with policy makers and the wider community attempting to put an end to slavery.

21.55 – 22.28

Patricia explains:

• The research has generated substantial data set of 170 interviews (58 are of survivors) and there is a wish to disseminate it as widely as possible
• They are working on the final draft of a report to Parliament due in March; the working title is “Between two Fires”

In Episode 2 of Series 4 of The Rights Track, Todd talks to Dan Vexler, Director of Programs at The Freedom Fund  and asks the question “How do you fight slavery on the ground?”

In an interview recorded on International Anti-Slavery Day We also hear from David Westlake and Steve Webster of The International Justice Missionabout their approach to the problem.

 0.00-6.20 mins 

• David Westlake and Steve Webster talk about the partnerships they make to help them build and pursue a criminal case against the perpetrators of modern slavery an support the victims through the process and afterwards 
• Todd’s asks Dan whether The Freedom Fund adopts the same approach
• In response Dan agrees that modern slavery is a crime and should be prosecuted as such but argues for a broader approach. He sees law enforcement as part of a solution but argues that we need to ask why people become enslaved, and suggests that it is because they are viewed as second class citizens with fewer rights, and thus more vulnerable to the exercise of power over them
• Todd picks up on this argument and in particular the idea that social norms within societies can lead to modern slavery being ‘acceptable’.
• By way of example Dan talks about the exploitation of migrant labour in the Thailand sea food industryworking in appalling conditions. He argues that Thai’s view such exploitation as permissible because they see these migrants as second-class citizens; a view that is tacitly supported, for example, by the police

 6.20-11.30

• Todd points to the twin elements of deception and coercion which lead to migrants in Thailand becoming trapped on boats for months on end without pay and asks whether this fits the definition of modern slavery, which is confirmed by Dan 
• Todd then goes on to ask what the Freedom Fund does to tackle the problem
• Dan explains the Freedom fund are working in many places for example; Thailand, India, Nepal and Ethiopia, and so that it depends on what the issues are in each place
• A key focus is prevention, via information to communities about the reality of the situations they may find themselves in, raising awareness of the deceptions practised by recruitment agencies, raising awareness of their human rights including the legality of their work situation, and organising them to watch out for traffickers
• The other strand is prosecution and advocacy to power holders to protect citizen’s rights
• Todd summarises the above and then moves on to ask about migrant workers in Qatar and the UAE and how they are coerced into a situation of modern slavery
• Dan refers to the programme in Ethiopia which focuses on female domestic workers and argues that deception and coercion occur all the way through the process from the pressure she feels to travel to the Gulf to support her family, the misrepresentation of contracts made by local brokers, the long hours she is forced to work, the and the degrading way she is treated by the family she works for
• He adds that The Freedom Fund is not against migration as such because of the economic benefits remittances However, he sees migration as ‘an entry point” which can lead individuals into modern slavery

 11.30- 13.30

• Todd points to similar situations happening everywhere in the world including The USA and the UK
• Dan agrees but would see this as being an exception given the strength of legal institutions in countries like the UK and draws a distinction between the UK and Bihar where large numbers of people are in debt bondage
• Debt bondage is another form of modern slavery involving lower caste people working on the land to pay off debts either recently incurred or inherited. They often work unpaid or are charged exorbitantly high interest rates which they can never repay

 13.30-17.30

• Todd now moves on to ask about the concept of “Hot Spots”what they are and how they are chosen?
• Dan explains that rather than spread their resources too thinly they concentrate on a limited number of slavery hotspots globally.
• They are chosen based on a number of factors; prevalence, whether there are local NGO’s they can support, the government’s position and a guarantee of sustainable funding
• The focus is on supporting front line local community based organisations which he feels have been neglected in funding the fight against modern slavery
• The role of the fund is to integrate the work of different organisations to ensure they share common objectives and to build a coalition working for systemic change in terms of criminal justice, and awareness raising, and advocacy to business organisations
• By way of example Dan refers to lobbying for more protection for migrant workers in the Thailand sea food industry, and pressing the Ethiopian government to develop policies to make economic migration safer rather than preventing migration

17.30-end

• Todd’s final question is about how the Freedom Fund measures success
• Success can be achieved by putting pressure on governments
• Success can be evaluated by universities who analyse which interventions are working best
• Dan points to the change in policy in Ethiopia from prevention of migration to developing policies for safe migration as an example of success

Todd summary:

• Shift away from criminal justice focus
• Increased attention to root causes of slavery including cultural norms
• Intervention raise awareness
• Some cautious optimism for achieving change over the long term

In Episode 1 of Series 4 of The Rights Track, Todd is in the United States, where he interviews leading slavery experts Professor David Blight from Yale University and Professor John Stauffer from Harvard University about lessons from history that are applicable in today's fight to end modern slavery.

He starts by talking to David Blight about his recently published biography of Frederick Douglass, the escaped slave who became the greatest orator of his day and one of the leading abolitionists and writers of the era.

0.00-5.00

• David talks about his quest to find out over nearly a decade to understand why Douglas was so steeped in the Old Testament
• He mentions Old Testament scholars recommended to him including Robert Alter  Walter Bruggemann and Abraham Heschel.
• He explains how reading those scholars led him to describe Douglass as a Prophet of Freedom

5.00-13.13

• David says what Douglass had to say about a host of issues related to issues of inequality still resonates today
• He goes on to explain that being a successful campaigner who achieved great things by the time he was in his forties he went on to see many of those victories eroded as his life drew to an end - he references the Jim Crow laws
• Douglass' power lay in his facility with carefully crafted words and prophetic language. He references the Fugitive Slave Crisis, the Dred Scott decision and the black exodus to Kansas
• David talks about his favourite words from Douglass' second autobiography My Bondage and my Freedom describing how he will continue use his voice, his pen and his vote in the fight against slavery and how he thinks that's all any of us has today to fight slavery.

Todd asks John Stauffer what lessons from history are being harnessed in what's been describes as the 4th wave of an anti-slavery movement

13.25-end

• John talks about the power of the voice in history and today  (orally and written) - he references the first abolitionist newspaper,  William Lloyd Garrison's The Liberator  and the response that drew from John C.Calhoun, a political advocate of slavery and someone credited with 'starting' the American Civil War
• Todd asks if it's the voices of slaves themselves that are more important or the voices of people who represent slaves - John says it's both
• John explains that even though there was no internet or social media to help spread anti-slavery messages, the power of public speaking then was as influential as the voices of celebrities today.
• John says the abolitionists, despite only being 5% of the population, may not have turned people into abolitionists, but they were effective in making people anti-slavery
• John says that silencing slaves is the weapon of modern day slave owners just as it was more than 100 years ago so that speaking out and bearing witness is the key to mobilising action to end slavery. 

In Episode 8, guest host Zoe Trodd, Director of The Rights Lab at the University of Nottingham interviews regular Rights Track host Todd Landman about taking a human rights approach to researching and tackling modern slavery. They reflect together on why this is important to their programme of research aiming to end modern slavery and on the important and insightful conversations that The Rights Track has had about the work in the Series to date.

00.00 – 05.40

Discussion around quantitative analysis and why it matters in the field of human rights and anti-slavery research. Todd points out that there are aspects of lives (attributes) which can be quantified and that this:

• Adds precision to analysis
• Allows comparison between groups of people at different scales and across countries
• Allows researchers to explore the relationships between different attributes or variables leading to generalisations and predictions

Zoe then asks what this means for the relatively young field of modern slavery research. Todd agrees the field of modern slavery research is in its infancy, but points out that so is the use of quantitative methods in the field of Human Rights.

He points to an early work by Donald Greer in 1935 which mapped violence during the French Revolution and the work of Mitchell and McCormack, World Politics Vol 40 1988 as the first real attempt at applying quantitative methods to the study of Human Rights. He says the fields of Human Rights and Modern Slavery share certain characteristics:

• They study hard to find victims and practices
• They use the same models
• They share the same sources of data

Note: the study of hard to find populations and practices has the potential for measurement error which requires caution when dealing with the data and analysing the results.

05.25 – 11.20

Zoe points out that the field of human rights dates back to the 18thcentury and the work of the anti-slavery abolitionists and yet there is very little co-ordination between different groups working in the field of modern slavery. She wonders what Todd’s thoughts are on a human rights approach to modern slavery:

• For governments and NGO’s, who concentrate on a criminal justice approach
• International labour organisations who focus on modern slavery as a labour rights issue
• Now human rights has been seen as a development issue (see SDG 8 plus table)

Todd sees the study of modern slavery evolving in a similar way to human rights:

• Developing precise definitions and measurements of modern slavery
• Human Rights work on obligations of the state to protect rights could be applied to the prevention and detection of modern slavery
• Will need to move away from the narrow focus on civil rights violations and to look at what governments can do to create the socio-economic conditions to stop people falling in to modern slavery
• It needs to move away from a law-based focus and to engage with other disciplines for example, statistics, to see what they can add to understanding
• Techniques that have been developed in the field of human rights can also be applied to modern slavery; for example; “the who did what to whom” model, and multiple systems estimations
• Combining rigorous research with advocacy requires researchers to remain as objective as possible – this can be a challenge when you are also looking to change something e.g. abolish slavery

11.20 – 15.50

Discussion around defining what modern slavery really means. Todd says:

• As with other aspects of human rights such as torture, definitions are contested – mentions the Handbook on Reporting Torture
• Definitions of modern slavery should be neither too narrow nor too broad
• We live in a world where traditional indicators property, control, and coercion are not as obvious

Todd suggests modern slavery is the intentional denial of  “agency” or freedom, and the task is to identify what the intentional denial of agency involves.

15.50 – 21.10

Slavery as a development issue. Todd points out that historically slavery provided an exploitable work force and was a tool for economic development. He adds:

• Slaves are a cheap form of labour, but he argues that this can be a drag on economic and social development because labour is not used efficiently, modern slaves are not wage earners or tax payers
• Liberation on its own is not enough - there needs to be strong financial support mechanisms otherwise people may fall back into slavery

 21.10 – 27.50

Todd’s thoughts on The Rights Lab - measuring progress on HOW their 4 main questions might be answered.

1. How many slaves are there in the world?

This needs to involve use of:

• multiple measures
• generation of indicators
• precise definitions
• developing proxy measures
• looking at risk factors
• identifying where there is a high probability of slavery: e.g. the geospatial analysis based research being carried out by Doreen Boyd at Nottingham University

1. Why does slavery persist? Todd suggests three approaches/questions:

• What are the economic conditions which cause people to fall into slavery?
• What are the structural and institutional conditions, which allow people to fall into slavery?
• What are the cultural circumstances, which lead to forms of slavery becoming normalised?

1. What approaches to tackling slavery work? 

• Map how many NGOs are working in this field and find out what they are doing
• Look at the success or otherwise of individual projects and understand why they were successful and importantly why they were not
• Compare different interventions and contexts to understand why they worked

1. What is the freedom dividend?

• Need to acknowledge there may not be one
• Identifying and measuring what constitutes a freedom dividend is very difficult
• The link between liberation and a dividend will be difficult to prove

Zoe mentions the business case for removing slavery from supply chains as a possible dividend in this respect 

27.50 - end

Todd is asked to reflect on his highlights of the first year of The Rights Lab. They include: 

• The passion of the researchers and the contributors to the Rights Track podcast
• The innovative ways of generating and analysing data
• The Geospatial work, which has revolutionised data collection. All human activity leaves a trace including slavery, and using geospatial analysis potential slavery activities have been identified enabling NGOs to be alerted and slaves to be liberated.

Todd finishes by talking about what next for The Rights Track including planned discussions with stakeholders and beneficiaries of the research and ideas to take the podcast on the road to talk to non academic groups involved in the struggle to end modern slavery.

Further links and resources

• Fuzzy set social science, Charles Ragin
• Rights Track interview with Kevin Bales
• Global Slavery Index
• Michael Ignatieff
• Bellagio-Harvard Guidelines
• Rights Track episode on the perpetrators of slavery with Austin Choi-Fitzpatrick
• Rights Track interviews with Bernard Silverman, Andrea Nicholson and Minh Dang, Doreen Boyd, Alex Trautrims
• Satellite Sentinel Project– George Clooney
• Finding research pathways to a slavery-free world Zoe Trodd writes for Open Global Rights 

In Episode 7 we talk about the perpetrators of slavery with Austin Choi - Fitzpatrick, author of What Slave Holders Think - How Contemporary perpetrators rationalise what they do.

00.00 - 06.06 

• Discussion of what drew Austin to research the perpetrators of slavery: not enough known about them and their relationship with the people they hold in slavery. Also important to consider the role perpetrators play both in the enslaving and freeing of people
• Explanation of bonded labour in India, a practice where perpetrators are violating human rights but not local norms and where they don't see themselves as criminals, so the practice is in plain view
• Todd refers to the well known Star Trek Prime Imperative (Directive) to suggest a possible metaphor for how how Austin approached interviewing the perpetrators of slavery
• Austin says going in and labelling people immediately would have conversations to an abrupt end and explains how he took account of people’s own experiences and lives in his approach.
• Using open ended questions about local issues: the climate, government, local law enforcement and relationships with local labour and advocacy groups in the community, helped him develop a picture of the nature of modern slavery
• He avoided the use of abolitionist language and tried to learn more about how perpetrators see themselves 

06.06 - 10.30 

• Todd asks how Austin came to be accepted by the local community and built trust and rapport
• Austin explains how he discounted snowball sampling as a method and instead used a Leapfrog method - when he found people he believed to be perpetrators he got them to refer him on to others who were also involved with bonded labour
• It was a challenge to work out if perpetrators were telling the truth Austin did by triangulating what he was told ‘on the fly’ to see which bits added up and which bits didn’t.
• Austin describes how he grew his beard because that seemed to confer additional spiritual status within the community and shared his own family experiences as a grandson of a farmer to establish his credibility
• Todd summarises this as a rapport and empathy approach 

10.30 – 17.20 

• Austin explains he interviewed 40 perpetrators and 20 victims/survivors for his research and describes the main insights he gained were around

1. A sense of lost relationships with their workers who they felt earlier had been members of their family
2. A sense of lost respect of their workers that they had earned from relationships.                                                                Austin says it may have been a façade but found the choice of language was really interesting and what he was least prepared for

• Todd then asks Austin to say more about the relationship between perpetrator and slave
• He says that commonly the exploiter would be on the edge of the community or circle not separate from it (as for example a trafficker) and that then raises the issue of how people live together post emancipation
• Todd makes a comparison with community courts called Gacaca in Rwanda which leads on to a discussion about issues surrounding reconciliation within communities, and what restorative justice looks like
• Todd then asks if, once uncovered, perpetrators stop the practice
• Austin says in some cases that depends on access to capital and cash either, to go into legitimate business or to use their status and connections with the police as a credible threat to the labour force and to carry on as before 

17.20 - 19.60 

• Discussion around what motivated the perpetrators and how they rationalised what they were doing
• Austin explains in many cases perpetrators had inherited the situation of control but were asking themselves why they would continue given the negative political impacts and whether they wanted to be seen as perpetrators of slavery - there is also a suggestion that for many there are few alternatives to the status quo
• Austin then makes the point that there is not enough known about what it takes to come out of abusive relationships not least of all for the perpetrators – he adds it needs both victims and perpetrators to work together to reach some form of attributive justice
• Todd references the work of Bill Simmons discussed in Series 1 of The Rights Track and his upcoming book Joyful Human Rights which raises the idea that human rights abuse victims also have a normal side to the lives they lead and comments that this is also the case for perpetrators or abusers 

19.60 - 24.52 

• Todd wonders if Austin's research in India is applicable elsewhere
• Austin suggests that it applies where labour exploitation is embedded in cultural practices e.g. India, Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh
• In broader terms he says he is dealing with violation of human rights but not social norms and in stepping outside of the slavery context he recognises that social change means that current behaviours can become unacceptable - one question he raises is how we deal with behaviour that was once acceptable, and no longer is
• He makes a final point about the way we all find ways to excuse exploitive
• Todd highlights how our view of Human Rights principles is evolving, and how human rights terminology isn’t necessarily recognised by local communities
• He closes by focussing on Gramsci’s notion of false consciousness in which people didn’t know they were being exploited or accepted they were perpetrators

Further links and resources

• Watch a You Tube video of Austin talking about his research

In Episode 6 we talk modern slavery statistics and the challenges that face those trying to get to the hard facts about the issue. Our guest is  Sir Bernard Silverman, a mathematician and statistician who produced the first scientific estimate of the number of modern slaves in the United Kingdom.

 00.00 - 04.10 

• Todd begins asking Sir Bernard about the difficulties in researching "hard to find populations” such as the victims of modern slavery, and in particular the issues of sampling and bias when drawing inferences from such difficult to obtain data.
• Sir Bernard agrees and suggests that the only way to avoid errors is to construct mathematical models and construct a sampling methodology to describe the data. He explains that classical sampling methods are not applicable to the victims of modern slavery
• Todd points out that the only way to identify victims is if they come forward to the National Crime Agency and/or other referral mechanisms, to create different " convenience samples"

 04.10 - 08.20 

• Sir Bernard mentions similar work carried out in Kosovo on the difficulties of estimating the number of deaths as a result of the conflict in the Former Yugoslavia
• Todd suggests that in this and similar instances the focus was on the number of dead bodies and was relatively easy to count whereas modern slavery is much harder to define and thus counting the numbers involved is much more complex
• Sir Bernard agrees adding that counting the number of dead has a lower margin for error - with no clear definition of modern slavery, there will be greater uncertainty about arriving at a total number of modern slaves

 08.20 - 12.41 

• Todd asks Bernard about the estimate of modern slavery victims in the UK and how it compares with the rest of the world
• Bernard answers that the quoted numbers (10,000 - 13,000) for the UK are probably under-estimation but says the number is large and should concentrate the minds of politicians, the police and the public
• World wide the UK ranks towards the bottom in terms of the risk factors that lead people into slavery
• Todd develops this theme by comparing slavery estimates for India and Luxembourg in terms of absolute numbers and the percentage of the population, in particular the estimate of 100 for Luxembourg, a number which may not quite capture the fact that .work-xbased commuting may actual double the population for Luxembourg and by inference the number of possible slaves.
• Sir Bernard adds the caveat that it is an estimate based on comparisons with neighbouring countries, not a fully accurate number
• Sir Bernard argues that the recent legislation makes the UK increasingly hostile to modern slavery in comparison with other countries

 12.41 - 15.26 

• Todd turns to discuss government spending and asks what level of priority is given to modern slavery in comparison with other forms of crime
• In Sir Bernard's view the focus is less about budget allocations and more about agenda setting for the police and awareness raising for the public, NGO's and academics

 15.26- 18.59

• Todd asks how can proxy measures be use to indicate the prevalence of slavery
• Sir Bernard lists the following possibilities:

1. Suspect bank accounts
2. Very cheap services e.g. low cost car washes
3. Individuals offering the same service in different locations
4. Suspicious financial transactions
5. Suspicious patterns of personal behaviour

• The development of reliable proxy measures is in its infancy - extrapolating from proxy measures to reliable numerical estimates is not easy
• Looking for change in reliable proxy measures may well be better indicators of the effectiveness of anti-slavery measures

 18.59 - end

• Todd asks whether there is away that Big Data techniques can be used to enhance proxy measures
• In reply Sir Bernard suggests undertaking textual analysis on company policy statements on supply chains. Larger textual analysis would need to focus on specific sectors and investigators will need to know in advance what they are looking for.

Further resources and information

• 2017 UK Annual Report on Modern Slavery for current spending on anti slavery measures see Executive Summary page 4
• Harnessing the power of data to put an end to modern slavery Thomson Reuters blog
• Using big data and quantitative methods to estimate and fight modern day slavery Monti Narayan Datta University of Richmond, USA
• A Typology of Modern Slavery Offences in the UK, London: Home Office