The SEO Freelancer

Introducing Ryan Darani

Ryan Darani, recovering agency SEO turned freelance SEO joins us today to discuss his career.

In today’s podcast, we talk with Ryan who has gone from making < £40K/M a year to £40K/M per month. We spend time discussing the discrepancy between UK and US SEO salaries and how mental health plays a significant role in a freelancer’s journey.

Individuals that Ryan recommends following:

* Steve Toth - listen to TheSEOFreelancer interview with Steve

* Aleyda Solis - Sign up for her weekly SEO newsletter #SEOFOMO

* Eli Schwartz - read the TheSEOFreelancer interview with Eli

How to connect with Ryan Darani

Check out Ryan’s SEO consulting website

Connect with Ryan on LinkedIn

Connect with Ryan on Twitter

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If you are interested in being a future SEO Freelancer podcast guest? Please email me directly at [email protected]

Podcast Transcription

Nick LeRoy  00:02

Hey, Ryan, how's it going?

Ryan Darani  00:32

Hey, Nick is going good, man. I'm happy to be here. How are you?

Nick LeRoy  00:35

Yeah, thank you so much for joining us on The SEO Freelancer very excited to talk to you.

Ryan Darani  00:41

I'm really, really excited.

Nick LeRoy  00:42

So for everyone listening here this month, we're talking to Ryan Darani. And he is roughly making 40,000 pounds a month freelancing full time. But the twist is, he's still considering going back to nine to five. So I'm super excited to talk to him about this. I want to understand you know, what's going really well, you know, what's not going well? And why somebody who's having so much success would still think it's amazing, you know, to potentially go back to the nine to five world. So, again, Ryan, thanks for joining. Do you mind for the audience here just giving us a little bit of an introduction? Yeah, who are you? What do you do? How long have you been doing SEO?

Ryan Darani  01:23

Yeah, sure. So for those of you who don't know me, which is probably everyone, my name is Ryan Darani, I've been doing SEO now for close to 10 years in some description. So I've kind of gone through the mill. So I started off in house at an insurance company some time ago. And then I transitioned into agency life where I started off at kind of like a SEO lead level, working with smaller budgets, smaller companies. And that gradually progressed, and I started to run campaigns for some of the bigger kind of international brands, looking at kind of six figure per month budgets for a couple of years, which kind of gave me the all round perspective behind SEO campaigns and bigger budget campaigns. And for the last two years, I've been well, just short of two years, actually, I've been running my own solo consultancy, and it's been a whirlwind. And I'm really happy to kind of dig into that with you guys today and kind of share my experience with it.

Nick LeRoy  02:30

That's super exciting. So I think the one question that everybody loves from this podcast so far is I always ask everybody how they started their career. So I appreciate that you volunteer that in house position, you know, in insurance, but the magical question, if you don't mind sharing, what was your first salary?

Ryan Darani  02:48

Or how much first salary? So my first at the Insurance Committee was the insurance company. So it was 32,000 pounds. Okay.

Nick LeRoy  03:00

And so just for comparison, people have heard I made $32,000 back about 2008/9. For me, I guess, a couple of years later for you. Yeah. But if we were to assume the, what do they say? Just the comparison between a pound and dollar? You're probably making just a little bit more than I was?

Ryan Darani  03:23

Just a little bit I think maybe it was maybe it'd be 37/38?

Nick LeRoy  03:27

Sure, obviously, you know, rolling in the dough, right.

Ryan Darani  03:30

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Ready to the eyes. Yeah.

Nick LeRoy  03:35

It's not that exciting, though. I don't know at least when you're going through school and you graduate. I still remember to this day, my very first paycheck from this job was $1,111. And change. And I spent it actually on a big screen TV, because somebody had told me once that you should spend your very first paycheck because it's the richest you feel like you'll ever be, and with the least amount of responsibility.

Ryan Darani  04:01

That's, you know what, that's entirely true. Same for me, like my first my first ever pay was, I was 18 or 17. And the first month's wage I ever received, I think was about 800 pound. So like, not a lot of money in the grand scheme of things, but at 18 years old, I was so excited. I'm like, I can put petrol in my car, I could go out to eat like it was so cool

Nick LeRoy  04:27

back then. But what's better than you know, prior to my full time experience, you know, basically working minimum wage where I was trying to be able to get enough money to see the movies and like you said they're all a gasoline car. Yeah. Yeah. So walk us so you walked us through a little bit your your career, but can you tell us a little bit more about the last full time job you had if you feel comfortable? You know what the difference was in salary from when you had started and when you had left? And then just tell us maybe a little bit more about what encouraged you to go freelance? Yeah,

Ryan Darani  05:05

sure. Yeah. So it's actually a quite a quite an unusual journey for me. So the insurance company I started at where I had little to no experience, I kind of like to be honest, I kind of talked my way into that job. Like I had read a lot about SEO, but I had never done anything in practice. And I wrangled my way into that job somehow. But when I joined the agency at that point, I had two years under my belt. And I had ranked a couple of local sites by myself. But to actually join that agency, because I wanted the experience and to work with these different clients, I actually took a pay cut. So I joined the agency, which was my last time, my last full time role. And my salary, if I remember was 28. So I joined at 28,000. So I took a 4000 pound pay cut to join. And that was genuinely because I loved the agency that I wanted to go and work for. And I was willing to take the pay cut to do that. And the journey from that point was, you know, I learned so much so fast in kind of six months. And again, I'll be super honest, like the pay, jump after that six month period wasn't high. It took me to Italy to 33,000 pound, and I was a senior SEO lead at that point managing like millions of pounds of budget. So yeah, that that transition, or that progression kind of seems backward in that sense financially. But I think what kind of prompted me to go freelance from that point is obviously financially, I was in a position where I just knew I was never going to earn the kind of money that I wanted to. And I had learned so much and had, you know, a few successes under my belt that I felt comfortable and confident enough to go out and try doing it myself.

Nick LeRoy  07:09

Wow, that's really impressive. There's two things that I want to cover here. So one, you not only took a pay cut, but when you went freelance, you are now making what you did annually per month, your ad is crazy. And congratulations, that's a fantastic piece. But what I want to spend more time talking about is an issue, I feel like the SEO industry kind of tiptoes around. So we started, like you said, very similar, you've made more than I did with the 32,000 pounds versus $32,000. But now we look at individuals with your level of experience. And I've seen this many times, you know, managers, directors, they're making maybe 50,000 pounds, where that role could be worth anywhere from say 75 to $150,000. Sorry, in the US. I'd love to hear from you. What do you think, contributes to this discrepancy in pay between the US and the UK? So?

Ryan Darani  08:19

Yeah, I think it's, it's a very unusual one, I think, like we had kind of spoken about the health care is probably a big contributing factor. But my genuine experience, and this is just, you know, personal opinion, not not a factor or anything. But I've worked with both US companies and UK companies. And there are only a very select few companies within the UK that really get the kind of at least in my experience that really understands how SEO works. And I feel like the US in general are ahead of us, in the sense of they understand the kind of art and the skill set that goes into it a little bit more. They definitely respect experience a little bit more over in the States. I from my from my experience. And like you said, you know, I think at an agency, in particular, a manager role, you're probably looking at less than 40,000 45,000 pounds. Again, it's been a couple years since I've been in an agency. So that might have gone up a little bit now. But compared to some of the job roles I'm seeing in the US where like managers or directors or even seniors are getting, like you said 75 to 100. I, I genuinely believe that the US are just a little more ahead of us in that sense. And the UK don't, at least the consultants that I've spoken with that have such a good skill set, don't value themselves enough to push for a bigger salary,

Nick LeRoy  09:51

sir, no, and that makes perfect sense. I think one thing in hearing that if they don't, barely potentially value and again There's just more personal thoughts here. Do you think does this transfer into how much you believe agencies are charging their clients? So coming from tenure agency career on my side, I've seen everything from your standard $2,000 a month for more of a small business to 2030. I even know someone who has a client, that's $100,000 plus a month. Do you think is there a gap in what is being charged in the UK for SEO versus the United States? And that is how it kind of trickled down to pay? Or what's your thought on that?

Ryan Darani  10:44

That's a very good, very good question. Likewise, I've, you know, I can speak from experience that the some of the budgets that clients are willing to kind of invest in SEO, especially at kind of enterprise level in the UK, is significant. You know, I've seen budgets 1020 30 100,000 Plus. But that does not translate into salary. So I think the profit margin in the UK might be slightly higher from an agency model perspective. Now, that's obviously not everybody, I'm sure there are agencies that have paid or do pay their staff very well. But from my experience, the budget definitely doesn't reflect in people's salaries. And that is from kind of junior level right through to managerial level. So yeah, it's a very, it's a very interesting one. I don't know if that's just because cost of living where where I am, is quite low. Versus bigger cities like London, Manchester, Liverpool are quite expensive to live in. So I don't know it's a it's a peculiar one. I definitely think some UK companies do invest in the radio quite heavily and agencies do benefit from that. I just think, and this is, I mean, I've spoken to a lot of agency owners in the UK, people are jumping from agency to agency right now, because of the potential of earning more money upfront. I don't know if that's similar to us.

Nick LeRoy  12:16

Yeah. So you literally just nailed the last question I was gonna say is like, in the US here, it's very common to Job hop, you know, I'll just arbitrarily say, every two years, and a lot of people are doing that, because you can either get 234 percent cost of living increases to your salary, or you can leave and potentially get 10%. Yeah, that's probably one of my biggest regrets. You know, looking back at my agency careers, I was always so loyal to the company to a fault, where, you know, I could have easily made more, you know, if I had moved, but, you know, it's interesting, I kind of had thought maybe that wasn't the instance, in the UK. But sounds like that is very similar.

Ryan Darani  13:05

I think I definitely think so. Now, I think this kind of COVID has kind of prompted an explosion in PR, SEO kind of fields. And we've liked the rise of people that are going freelance and earning decent money, you know, it compact in comparison to what they could earn as a full time employee has maybe done two things, one is helped people understand that, you know, there is more out there for them for them to go and achieve. And to if they are considering, you know, leaving an agency or an in house position that there is the demand out there, and people will invest in them.

Nick LeRoy  13:44

That makes a lot of sense. And the one thing I'll just add on and we'll jump on to our next topic is I talked to quite a few people who are interested in the idea of freelancing, and one of the first conversations I have with them is, you need to kind of understand the amount of effort and success you'll have to make up for that salary. From if you're in the UK, or even take my first salary, making up 30 to 40, maybe even $50,000 is a lot easier, that could be taking 123 clients as a freelancer and making more than you ever had before. But what's interesting is I would almost be a bigger advocate for anybody who's considering freelancing over in the UK or let's just say not the US, because if you truly have 10 years of experience, and you're making the equivalent on the high end of 50 grand if you have the ability to sell and communicate I'm gonna go on the record and say like I can almost guarantee that you're gonna make more than you are currently.

Ryan Darani  14:53

At you know what, I will back you on that Nick 100%

Nick LeRoy  14:58

that very interesting, so We'll move on to a different topic here. But for anybody who's listening, please feel free to comment on the Seo freelancer.com. Or tag Ryan and myself on Twitter, a topic that we don't people talk about it, but I swear we only scratched the surface. So I want to hear more about what people say. Yeah, for sure. So right, this is a really good segue. And I think I know the answer to this. But you know, so you are working at the agency, you have the experience, you're obviously good at what you're doing. But what was it that just kind of made you say, I'm gonna do this, I'm going freelance full time, I'm done. You know, everything you said you enjoyed and loved about agency life, I'm done. I gotta do this myself.

Ryan Darani  15:46

Yeah, like, I think the truth of the truth of the matter is, is that when I first started out in SEO, I loved it, I was obsessed with it. And that was the case for, you know, the first year at the agency, but agency life for for anybody who hasn't been in this world or been in that world before, it can get very hectic and very overwhelming. And you get to a certain stage where you just feel like you're part of a part of it, like a conveyor belt. So you, you get assigned a task or something you have to deliver for the client, and then you pass it on. And there was never this sense of like, I kind of lost the sense of fulfillment and purpose in my role. And I became friends with Craig Campbell. You know, awesome, awesome, dude. And I went up to see him we met for the first time, he kind of showed me this, you know, the law of being your own boss, and what it does for you. And I had kind of toyed with the idea for two years, and never had the balls to do it. And it's the truth of the matter is, if you're, if you're skilled, and you've got experience, and you make a leap, and you want to become a freelancer, what's the worst that can happen that, like, you go back and get another job, right. And I finally understood that to be the truth. And I was like, if this doesn't work, so what I'll go back to get another job, I'll try again in six months. But at least I gave it a shot.

Nick LeRoy  17:22

And I think that's one of the big benefits to freelancing in the search space, you know, whether it be paid or you know, let's just call it digital as a whole. I think when people think of entrepreneurship, you know, they think of the amount of money that it takes up front and time and SEO, specifically, I'll speak to kind of what you and I do. It's a lot of sweat equity. And I've always joked, I even told my wife when I made the decision. And when we made the decision together is like, oh, for me, you know, if freelancing doesn't work, I have to go find another six figure, agency job, like, you know, life is so hard. And I think what I mean from that is like, I don't mean to be put upon or, you know, I'm grateful for the opportunity, but there's very little reason to not give it a shot, if it's something you're interested in. So I just completely understand what you're saying and, and why you would want to do it. And I'll even give you kudos, because you say you didn't know that you didn't think you'd have the guts to do it. I made every excuse in the book, I had to get literally fired during COVID to be able to finally put my foot down and say, I'm John, I'm gonna I can almost guarantee you and I am embarrassed to say this that had I not gotten fired. I might have to be in a chair somewhere right now. So kudos to you.

Ryan Darani  18:50

Likewise, man, we both made the jump. And I think we both saw the other side of what success look like for sure.

Nick LeRoy  18:56

But I think this is a really good segue again, so we just talked about how, especially in the UK, the nine to five obviously had benefits, probably not making so much. But you still are kind of a Lord you. You still think about it. You know, you you and I have talked offline. We talked a little bit before this. And you're even willing to talk about now but why would you want to go back nine to five you can make your salary in one month. You know, you're your own boss. I feel like you know, a lot of people including myself, we sit there and say it's like I've never gone back. I'm not working for the man. Yeah, so walk us through that a little bit. Like I want to hear a little bit more what it is about nine to five that isn't leaving your mind. You know, like a lot of freelancers hope.

Ryan Darani  19:45

Yeah, it's it's kind of counterintuitive or a little bit weird to be in that mind space, especially, you know, from where I was to where I am now. And genuinely and I know this is gonna sound kind of like kinda, I don't know, maybe like a humble brag or something like, it's definitely not meant in this way. But the money side of things initially when I wanted to when I started out, freelancing was like the sole motivator, I wanted to earn money, I wanted to earn X amount, and I thought it would change my life forever. And there is a point where the money stops being such such a big deal. And it's more about your kind of quality of life, your headspace your ability to switch off. And, you know, I think I wouldn't ever go back to, if I'm honest, I would never go back to an agency environment. But what I would consider is falling in love with a brand and helping that brand become, you know, a giant in the space. And I think it would take a fantastic brand for me to ever consider doing that. But the, if it was ever to present itself, I would definitely take that opportunity, even if it meant I was making, you know, a fraction of what I am now. Because I've kind of matured past the point of I say, that's probably not entirely true, because I still chase more money and more clients now. But I've kind of matured in a place where I'm happy to live comfortably, and love what I do, and also work for somebody else. But I think I might be wrong. But because of the places is probably the same for you the place where we are in our careers as freelancers provide us with a very good platform to not necessarily work for somebody, but work with somebody in a brand. Absolutely.

Nick LeRoy  21:47

And I think you nailed it. You know, I came in very hard. I know even when you and I talked offline, I was like, why would you even do this is gone so great. But I think you honestly nailed it. Like, one of the biggest benefits of freelancing, again, I'll speak on my experience is I don't feel like I necessarily come in as a contractor. Because I take projects on where I feel like I get to be a legitimate partner. And if you aren't valuing me at a similar level or role that you're in, then we probably aren't working well. But so to your point, maybe it's less about truly going back. And I'm Eric quoting here, do the nine to five, but a brand that you can fall in love with, potentially build. And I will add, because I do personally like to chase the money. But if you could even get equity, like that, too, I can definitely see why that could be really appealing. Because one thing that I'm trying to do with the SEO Freelancer here is give a little bit more of a well rounded view to freelancing. Because I think it's very exciting, similar to how we kicked off this conversation, you know, making 40,000 pounds a month, when people you know, with 10 years of experience, they're making 40,000 pounds a year. You know, that's the exciting part. But what people don't always talk about are the stressors of freelancing to be able to make 40,000 pounds or however much it's just replacing it with whichever, you know, works for you. It requires managing your clients and setting expectations and turnover, and doing your taxes. And if you're in the US the health insurance, which by the way I spent $18,000 A year paying for. So I'm ranting now, but I want to give you an opportunity, right? Like walk us through a little bit more like what do you think you'd get a little bit of a reprieve from? If you were to go back to the nine to five?

Ryan Darani  23:50

is a excellent, excellent question. And my it's an unusual one. So when you like I said it at an agency you're balancing a lot of things you're being pushed from pillar to post you've got 10 different industries that you're managing at any one time and you kind of have to It sounds easy to people that don't work in this line of work that don't do SEO or anything digital marketing related it's really difficult or mentally taxing to jump from you know finance into retail into I don't know what cannabis or whatever you've got all kinds of and they're all different clients all different personalities, all different budgets spends. So you have to You're all day kind of balanced in between a bunch of different people and, and stresses and levels of input. So when I think about our fight, you know if I could work on one brand and just be in love with it, and this is my sole focus, and I can execute on it exactly how I want to like the reprieve for Mi is to be honest mental headspace. Like, I haven't got to think about a million different things in a different in a million different industries, I can think about one thing and focus my attention on it. And kind of get back to that point where you're, you know, completely engrossed in what you do day in day out. And you can focus on it all of the time.

Nick LeRoy  25:23

I really like that, as everyone is our heard, and I was very vocal to you, Ryan, I came into this, I was like, What are you thinking? What are you doing? He was freelancers, we got to stick together. But I will admit, I'll take a step back and say, everything that you said, is exactly why I may consider a role in house as well. You know, I don't really see it happening anytime soon. But I think first and foremost, you and I both agree, if there's ever a day where the money does dry off, or something does happen, again, beyond the fall back into a role like that, where you could fall in love with a brand and have the support of a larger company would be great. But I think all the juggling, there's just so much juggling when it comes to freelance life. And you and I were talking offline to is it's actually really interesting to hear that you agree with me because I said, I feel like I'm actually the most stressed out when I have the least amount of deliverable. Whereas when I'm, you know, constantly going, and it's checkboxes and checklists and invoicing and all that y'all don't have time to be stressed out.

Ryan Darani  26:34

Yeah, that's, that's so so true. Like when you have those moments of, quote, unquote, peace, it's normally when you start to overthink every little part of your job. So you know, I don't know how you feel your time when you run into that. My issue is when I have these kind of down periods, as I look like you said, I look for stuff to do, like, should I be doing this? am I providing value to the clients by not doing, you know, the extra eight hours today when everything's complete already? So I think it's definitely a balancing act, you have to really understand your value at a top level. And if you start to question that you will drive yourself and mean, you have spoken about this, you will drive yourself insane, worrying if you are doing the right thing.

Nick LeRoy  27:22

Very true to what you're saying, you know, what do you do with that time, and I'm either doing exactly what you said, it's like you're nitpicking these sites and trying to help out, you know, we're giving just a little bit extra to the client, which isn't adding significant value. So that's where I am spending more time on branding and personal projects, do things like this, there's podcasts, you know, this is fun, I enjoy meeting like minded individuals, I like helping people that are on the edge of whether they should freelance or not. It's productive time that otherwise I just kind of sitting in that headspace and who knows what I'd be doing.

Ryan Darani  28:00

Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you started this. I think it's an awesome, awesome platform and an awesome idea. So big thanks to you, Nick for this.

Nick LeRoy  28:10

So with that said, so now we talked a little bit about freelancing is awesome. But maybe there'll be a day where I'm not freelancing. So we're kind of doing that jumping back and forth. Ryan, what advice would you give to somebody, regardless of their in the UK, or the United States, wherever, if they wanted to freelance? What advice would you give them?

Ryan Darani  28:39

My biggest piece of advice is, if you are one of those people that genuinely has always wanted to try it, or you've always wanted to kind of be your own Boss in any aspect of work, whether that's SEO, digital marketing, it could be that you want to just, you know, be a content writer full time or you know, whatever it might be. If you think about it enough, and it doesn't go away, I highly recommend that you do it. But I would never put myself in a position where it has too much risk. So by that, I mean, if you have the freedom or the luxury of a nine to five job that's paying you every single month, and you're able to, you know from seven until 11 At night, work on your network, work on your personal brand, work on a side project, and kind of get a feel for what it's going to be like if you were to ever do this full time. That would be the best route I would recommend because you kind of ease that stress of I'm getting a salary one minute and then the next minute I have nothing. And I've also not spent the time building up to this point. So I highly highly recommend you do that. First have the have the framework laid out by three months, six months, it doesn't matter. There's no rush, you've got time. After that six months, and you've built up some some income from your side projects and you feel comfortable, then take that leap. You'll be in a much clearer headspace at that point.

Nick LeRoy  30:17

I absolutely love that advice. Because I can tell you, as I've been very vocal about, I got fired. And I didn't have a whole ton of, you know, backup money or a slush fund, you know, it just, I always had thought, you know, I'm a high performer, there's no reason, you know, SEO is a very progressive, forward thinking marketing initiative. There's no way I'm gonna lose my job. I'm off to I say something stupid, which I guess is always a risk with me. But I thought that'd be, you know, the case. So I started out with kind of a, I cannot fail mentality. But what that led to was taking on projects that I shouldn't have things that weren't paying very well, you know, probably got a little bit bullied by some clients. And I think everything you just said, not only building a backup, you know, whether it's literally cash in the bank, or if you have another, you know, you have your nine to five job. Every everything right, and that is so perfect. And, you know, I would agree with them. 100%. on that? Yeah, absolutely. I think that's one thing we didn't talk about was, did you create a slush fund? You doing freelance? You're part time in addition to your full time role?

Ryan Darani  31:42

Yeah, so funnily enough, I didn't, when I first started doing kind of freelance projects, they weren't SEO specific. So they were kind of I would do a web build for 700 pounds, and try and tack on SEO as like a, you get this as well. So I kind of did that for a little while, like, it was probably a year and I'm going to be frank, I'm a I'm a terrible, terrible web designer. So like, it just doesn't, I just don't connect with it. And but anyway, it allowed me to have, you know, a little bit of a safety net in the bank, so that if anything did go wrong, or I didn't get any work in the first three, three ish months, I was kind of covered for my bills. But kind of, you know, luckily, and thankfully, I within the first 45 days was able to, you know, not need that extra cash.

Nick LeRoy  32:42

Congratulations. And that's awesome. I think we hear a lot of horror stories of people, you know, struggling. And but when you figure it out, and you know what you're doing, and you're good at what you're doing. It just shows how incredibly valuable this skill set is.

Ryan Darani  32:58

Yeah, Yep, absolutely. Yeah.

Nick LeRoy  33:01

So, Ryan, you already gave us some really good advice for people that want to potentially start freelancing, whether it be full time or part time? Do you have any particular resources, books, individuals that you would recommend that people check out or follow?

Ryan Darani  33:18

Yes, I do. I think you are an immediate choice. I was you know, I was I'm absolutely suit like suit like fanboying out a little bit when we finally got to speak. If I'm super honest, so proud of I think there's a couple of a couple of other really good people in the industry that I enjoy following. Steve Toth is one of them. Later, solace, there's another. Who else Eli Schwartz, who is I'm a big fan of as well think those are, it's really difficult. There's probably like 100 that I can I can remember if I looked at my Twitter, but off the top of my head, those are the guys that I was looking at. When I wanted to make this jump. Course wise and book wise, I read product led SEO, which is great. Course wise, I've done them all. So affiliate hacker income school, etc, etc. So I can't really give a super positive or confident recommendation to these courses just yet. But for anybody that is kind of looking to dig into this, what I would I would recommend if you've already got a skill set in SEO, or whatever the skill set is that you have, I would look into the kind of admin and legal aspects of being a freelancer. So handling contracts, handling, personal income, your taxes, all of this kind of stuff you have to know and understand if you can get a wrap on that before you You kind of get into this into this game, you'll be 100 steps ahead of what I was when I started.

Nick LeRoy  35:07

Right? Again, that was a theme here where I love what you're saying. But you're so right, being able to optimize the title tag and build a link and submit a sitemap, you know, that's one skill set. But to be able to run a business, a lot of people have never had to do that. So just doubling down on what he said, Yeah, I love the idea of talking to an accountant, make sure you get your books in order, because that probably is one of my constant stresses. Because I'm not an expert in that field. I can migrate the largest of largest websites. But you want me to balance my business book.

Ryan Darani  35:47

I hate you, man. It's such a pain. I hear you're on that one.

Nick LeRoy  35:51

All right. Thank you so much for your time today. This is an amazing conversation. For anybody who's listening today, what is the best way for them to be able to connect with you?

Ryan Darani  36:03

The best way to get a hold of me is either LinkedIn or Twitter. So my Twitter handle is search for Ryan. And my LinkedIn. If you just search for Ryan to Ronnie, you should be hopefully there's no one else with my name. I'm not sure there is it's an unusual last name. So if you search for Ryan, Ernie, I'm on LinkedIn. And you know, Nick, I have to say it's been absolutely awesome speaking to you today. I'm so glad we got to do this. And yeah, thanks again. Dude. I appreciate it.

Nick LeRoy  36:32

Yes, thank you. And I will put all those links as well as a link to his homepage as well in the notes below. But Brian, again, thank you so much. Appreciate it. And I'll see everybody else later. Thanks. Take

Ryan Darani 36:46

Take care.

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Introducing Steve Toth

Steve Toth, the author of SEONotebook.com, has been in the SEO industry for ten plus years and freelancing full-time since 2020. Steve reached out to me after reading my interview with Eli Schwartz and we quickly got a call on the schedule.

In today’s podcast, we talk about Steve’s journey from entry-level copywriter to freelance consultant making many multiples of his old salary. If you want to learn more about starting off as a freelancer, value-based pricing, utilizing LinkedIn to get clients, and even hiring for help then you won’t want to miss this podcast episode!

Steve’es Book Recommendations - no affiliate links.

The go giver & Million-dollar consulting

How to connect with Steve Toth

Sign up for Steve’s weekly email: SEONotebook.com

Connect with Steve on LinkedIn

Connect with Steve on Twitter

If you are interested in being a future SEO Freelancer podcast guest? Please email me directly at [email protected]

Podcast Transcription

Nick LeRoy  00:00

Welcome to the SEO Freelancer podcast. I'm your host, Nick LeRoy. And today I am talking to freelancer, Steve Toth, who made over $40,000 A month while he was working full time. Let's get right into this. Hey, Steve, how's it going?

Steve Toth  00:18

How's it going, Nick? Well, it's been a while since I've worked full time. But at the time I was doing that. But it's been about two years now that I haven't done

Nick LeRoy  00:26

that. Yes, absolutely. So today, just to be clear, we're gonna be talking about a time when he was bringing in significant income while maintaining his full-time position. So Steve, let's start. Can you give us a little bit of an introduction? You know, what's a brief description of your background? And how long you've been freelancing?

Steve Toth  00:46

Yeah, sure. So I've been in SEO since about 2010, started more as a blogger, and then just got a job at an SEO agency actually being more of a Content Manager role. But, you know, those things are pretty closely linked. So I started blogging about SEO, you know, even before I was really doing it, just because I was so interested in it, this was back in like 2010 2011. And, you know, quickly realized that that's what I wanted to be doing. Got to ask tons of questions to the SEO folks like who, you know, have been having more experience at that agency every day and just quickly accelerated my knowledge to the point where I became the SEO director. And then just tucked between a couple of agencies got laid off, and then got a job at FreshBooks, which was definitely sort of a launchpad for me, grew their organic visits to over 50,000 visitors a day, and ranked for keywords that had ranked number one for keywords that had 300,000 search volume. So basically did really well at FreshBooks. And when I left that company, I was actually hired as a consultant by them. So they were one of my first clients when I broke out on my own.

Nick LeRoy  02:07

Wow, that's fantastic. And I know you kind of gave us a little bit of a walk through already of your career. But do you mind sharing a little bit more specifically about that? That first copywriting job? I think you said was 2010. And maybe what your salary was getting?

Steve Toth  02:22

Oh, yeah, for sure. So I was a copywriter at a web development agency called Web Canada, they are no longer alive, but they actually rebranded a while, but I think they sold that company. And that was just a web copywriter for them. And that was making 30k a year. And I remember, like, I was basically put in charge of using, sorry, launching their blog. And one of the first blogs I ranked was How long should I wait to redo my website? So it was like, redo your website was, was was the keyword and, you know, I just put it in like seven times, and boom, I wrecked and I thought it was so cool. And I remember like showing my boss and they're like, yeah, that is really cool. And, and from there, like it was just kind of like, you know, I can do I can keep doing this. So basically, you know, that that time this was, yeah, 2010 2011 and 2012. I think SEO was a really exciting time back then is I mean, just as it is now, but this was sort of the Matt Cutts era of SEO and this is when, you know, Panda and Penguin were first released. And those were like, you know, I would say Google's two big blows to the SEO industry in terms of changing, you know, how business was done. Like, quite significantly. So it was really fortunate to be a part of that, at that time, and like witnessing that big shift, you know, in the sort of 2012 2013 era.

Nick LeRoy  04:01

Just to be clear, Steve is from Canada. So 32 is even a little bit less if you were to convert that to US dollars.

Steve Toth  04:09

It's pretty pathetic.

Nick LeRoy  04:12

Which was funny because my first job raised about that same area 2009 was $32,000 us for kind of a similar role of brought in to teach myself SEO.

Steve Toth  04:25

But you know, what was actually interesting Nick, at that time, in 2011, there was parity between the US and Canadian dollar. There was actually this remember, I bought a very expensive pair of headphones and I was like, Man, I got such a deal because the dollar was the same.

Nick LeRoy  04:44

I love that. You know, fun story real quick. My very first paycheck I won't forget it simply because it was $1,111 I used to buy a flat screen TV because somebody had told me once you know this will feel like the most money you've ever made because as you get older You'll just have more responsibilities. So, yeah, isn't it kind of funny how we look back? And $32,000? You know, kind of felt like a blessing at the moment? And now, maybe not quite so much.

Steve Toth  05:11

Yeah, you can make that month pretty easily, I would say, as a freelancer.

Nick LeRoy  05:17

So you mentioned that your last job before going off for you freelance full time was at FreshBooks. Do you mind sharing what your final salary was there? So kind of making the difference between 10 years starting point to 10 years later?

Steve Toth  05:31

Yeah. So just to give you an idea, like, I was doing really well, I'll just backtrack just a little bit before that. I was at an agency and it was a good gig. And I was actually earning commission, because I had created several new services at the agency. And for one reason or another, I won't get into the minutiae, but I just knew I had to leave. And they offered me around 100k to stay. And and I ended up declining it and making more of a lateral move to a different agency that then laid me off. So I was like, Okay, well, I have gotten, you know, I've got no job. So I'm much more open to different offers. And when I started at FreshBooks, it was 75k. Canadian a year. And then I got one raise 280 K, so wasn't a whole lot. And I knew like the value that we were bringing in, we had 10. Next our free trials, throughout SEO and, you know, getting a raise at a company like that is not based on performance. It's more based on how you play the game. And I wasn't playing the game as well as some other people. I don't think,

Nick LeRoy  06:45

Steve, I think you and I can be the not playing the political game, correct club, because that's kind of a big deal. On my side. As some people I have seen with my own story, I got a $10,000 raise, and then was like go a couple of weeks later, during COVID. But still, it shows you that you know, performance is only worth so much. And yeah, the politics behind it. I was an easy one to cut off evidently.

Steve Toth  07:13

Well, the raises come by committee, right? So they basically have everybody's name on the board and all the directors vote on who they think they should get the raise. So if you're not popular, and you've never spoken to half the directors in the marketing department who are voting on that, you're never going to get it. Right. How

Nick LeRoy  07:31

are you going to make that case for yourself? When maybe three of the five people in the room know your name?

Steve Toth  07:38

Yeah, it didn't, it didn't really matter in the end. But yeah, it was just it was, yeah, it feels it feels like a slap in the face of the time. Because, you know, like the, at least in my case, I knew that the contributions I was making to the company was significant. But it was also interesting, because this was around the time that like that we had cycles for each raise. And the time that I really thought I was going to get one because our we were performing so well, I didn't. But at the same time, like this was like September 2019. At that time, I was probably making around 15k through my my freelance business, and then by the time I left FreshBooks, I was making significantly more than not.

Nick LeRoy  08:22

And let's jump into that, because as we know, from the title of this podcast, when you were working FreshBooks you were freelancing as well, and bringing in basically half your salary every single month. So can you walk us through a little bit of what that, you know, what's that process? Like? I mean, obviously, from $1 perspective, it's pretty enticing to leave the nine to five, but walk us through just a little bit what it was like juggling full time and freelance and what was the final moment where you're like, I'm done. I'm just going to work for myself.

Steve Toth  08:55

Yeah, I think also like worth mentioning, just like how it all started to write. How did I go from like having one very small lawyer client to suddenly like three really nice paying clients for that at that time. That was about you know, September 2019 It was about 5k a month and at 5k per client per month. And so what I basically happen was we had ranked number one for invoice template and that was the big keyword that we were going for and we finally did it right didn't know how long it was gonna last ended up lasting just under two years but we ranked number one and I we were on our way to an escape room just for like a team outing. And and I just posted on LinkedIn like oh my god, like we've ranked number one for this keyword. Thank you, Chris Wesley and like all the people who contributed and I really didn't think anything of it. I press post and then went to the escape room and then Um, I got two leads out of that. And each of those were, one was, I think 7k. And then the other one was like 4k, per month. And then I started working on those two clients based off of that one LinkedIn post. So it just showed me the power of LinkedIn first and foremost. And this was also right around the time that I started SEO notebook. So you know, having those two clients plus that criminal lawyer that I was working on, started to like, really be like, wow, like I can make much more than I'm currently making it. I have my job. And, you know, maybe if I just keep on doing these LinkedIn posts, maybe I can get some more clients, right. And, and this is also the time where I launched yet SEO notebook, and about two months into my newsletter, where I just email out one piece of strategy each week, I had about 1000 subscribers. So it also started to provide leads as well. And actually today, I would say that I get most of the inquiries through my website. And maybe it's like an ad, maybe 7030 split between my website and LinkedIn these days. And sorry, you had some other questions here as well. But I kind of just went a little bit into the to the past a little further than

Nick LeRoy  11:24

that. No, that's super helpful. And first off, I'll just say, everybody, definitely go check out Seo notebook.com. It's an email that I appreciate getting each week. And as someone who also sends out an email each week, you know, through the SEO for lunch, I can, you know, say pretty much the exact same things, it's an amazing opportunity to get your name out there be able to spread some really good information. And it's kind of a constant opportunity to pitch your services and your brand. It's no surprise at all that you found so much success with that.

Steve Toth  12:01

Yeah, anybody? Did they the key is consistency. And you'll say the same thing, right? Nic like you have to be sending weekly, you can't, you can't let it slip. I know there's certain people I won't name any names, but like people start newsletters and then stop them. And then like really like, just don't keep them up and they don't do anything. And I just got that advice very early on is like if you don't be if you're not sending weekly, then people are simply going to forget who you are.

Nick LeRoy  12:33

And that's so true. There's I will out one person because he's a buddy of mine, but like Sean Marquis, like he has a really good newsletter that I've always appreciated. He's kind of snarky, and to the point. And he was really good for a long time. And I gave him a bunch of crap, because he's kind of stopped and put it back together. And yeah, it's just all about what you're prioritizing at the time. But I think similar to you, Steve, like I've been writing the SEO for lunch for five years now. And you know, I have 5500 subscribers, and it's just now I don't want to let anybody down. They the people that I've talked to have told me it's important to them. And selfishly, it's a good opportunity to get my name brand out there. And I suspect you see the same value. And you probably have a similar routine for SEO notebook as well.

Steve Toth  13:19

Yeah, usually Fridays, I put everything together. Okay,

Nick LeRoy  13:23

yeah, mine is Monday. That's like, I don't have the patience to be able to do it out of

Steve Toth  13:28

yours is a little different. Because you've got to get like breaking news, right? So but for me, like I'm just literally like, I'm noticing things in my own work. Or I'm noticing a thread on Facebook or Twitter on LinkedIn, that has some interesting knowledge. And I'm just taking one piece of advice, like my emails could literally be like three sentences, and just telling you to do something, right. So like, it's a little bit different than the curation that you that you'd have to do.

Nick LeRoy  13:58

Right. But I think similar to SEL, yeah, it's not the quantity of words. It's the value of the words, right?

Steve Toth  14:04

Hopefully, yeah. People like it. 12,000 subscribers

Nick LeRoy  14:07

in which is just crazy. Yeah, that's awesome. Congratulations on that milestone seemed like just the other day, I was congratulating him 10,000. So let's race to 25 and see who gets there first. Let's see.

Steve Toth  14:21

Maybe we could combine our lists.

Nick LeRoy  14:24

Later, we're coming after you Stephen deck. I think the last part of that question, then we'll move on is, obviously you've got these clients, they're paying pretty well. Hopefully, they're making you happy as well as you are them. But what was the tipping point for leaving FreshBooks? Like you obviously made a commitment at one point in time that full time work is no longer of value to you.

Steve Toth  14:51

Yeah, so I got some advice. That was basically it's super valuable if anybody's in this position. Don't leave your job until it's costing you money to stay in your job. So what that means is, if you can float both things at the same time, go to go to your nine to five, come home, have dinner, maybe spend an hour or two chilling, and then go back to your computer and do your work and make it all manageable, then keep doing that as long as you can, because you're going to build up some savings. And when it gets to the point of I've got people knocking at my door, and I've either got to tell them no, or tell them yes, and then quit my job. That's the point when I did it. And what I actually ended up doing in I guess, January, February 2020. Right before COVID was a took on all this business, I asked FreshBooks if I could go down to two days a week, they told me, If you want to be an employee, you've got to work three days a week. But if you want to go on contract and become a freelancer, we can we can basically do two days per week. And once I got the approval from them, I ended up taking all of my vacation days in my last month, because I needed the time to work on these new clients. And then yeah, my first day as a full time entrepreneur, was March 2 2020, about two weeks before we all got locked down. So I was pretty nervous at the time, I didn't really know what would happen. I had two clients cut their budget in half, just out of sort of caution. One of them ended up raising it back up the other one stayed at that that level. But pretty soon after, I would say like, you know, April, May, things really started to tick up. And and business has been great ever

Nick LeRoy  17:02

since. I love hearing that. I mean, especially like I said, you and I had started really at the same time you kind of in March and myself in May. And you know, I think it sounds like both of us have been very fortunate that business has been good. You know, obviously some ups and downs, but very much largely in the positive. So I'm super pumped to hear that, you know, thanks, man. Awesome for you. Congratulations. Yeah, thanks. It's been

Steve Toth  17:29

cool. I really never expected it to move as fast as it did. But yeah, move pretty fast.

Nick LeRoy  17:37

I agree with you, literally, my first goal was I always kind of joke with my wife, it was like, this is a survive year, if I can make 90% of what my old salary was, I was gonna be really happy. Unlike what you were kind of saying. And I would agree 1,000%, like, definitely come up with a little bit of a savings plan and a runway and get this line of, of leads before you go out full time. But I didn't have those and it always turned into you know, we're gonna pay this month. And then we're gonna go into this next month. And before I know it, that's where it kind of based the story that I wrote about my freelancing experience. Like before I knew it, I made my entire salary back, and almost doubled it within eight months. And it's just amazing. When you commit to SEO, and you have the right skill sets, you know how much just of your time you can get back and how valuable it is just even from $1 perspective.

Steve Toth  18:33

Yeah, for sure. I mean, even like four months before I left FreshBooks I was an incorporated company, which I found kind of cool. At the time walking around, walking around those halls and like making more than every executive there was quite a surreal time.

Nick LeRoy  18:53

And isn't that really neat, though? I mean, you don't have to be this company with a massive corporate office and private planes to be a company. I mean, similar to you, you know, I was freelancing part time and I had become an LLC. And, you know, I had even picked the dorky name backbreaking SEO, which now I have my DBA as you know, Nick Leroy consulting, but it's fun to just set it all up. Yeah, it take taxes a little bit more seriously. And you're a business like this is a real deal. And it's very exciting.

Steve Toth  19:29

Yeah, I mean, like, when I was working at FreshBooks, and we were servicing Small Business businesses, we used to say, Oh, we wanted to go after like the scaling segment, right. And even like back then in my mind, like scaling was like, you know, $10 million dollar company, but didn't realize that like, you know, a single like person company, you know, with some contractors can be a million dollar or $2 million company and they don't care about Spending $100 a month on invoice software?

Nick LeRoy  20:04

Yeah, and that's the other thing, you know, we can talk about, you know, your comparing the revenue from second year to your first year, you know, you made a substantial jump. And I suspect part of it goes to just what you were saying it's more value based pricing, you know, when you're able to take your skill sets, and have these company make multiples of their revenue, you know, why should you necessarily tie yourself to an hourly rate? So I guess on that note, I just be curious, what what feedback do you have on that aspect? And what has contributed to your success in what has been a relatively short, you know, full time SEO, freelance career?

Steve Toth  20:41

Yeah, the hourly rate things like interesting and like, I know that we share a common connection, and Eli Schwartz who, who wrote product, lead SEO, and Eli's a guy who I actually met, while I was still working at FreshBooks, he was introduced to me by somebody else, who we both knew. And he was, he's been such an awesome, like, very casual mentor, but like, the information that he gives me is great, and like always, actually spoke with him yesterday. But, you know, going to that, like value based pricing piece, you're, there's so much leverage with SEO. You know, you can literally say to a client, like, Hey, I think you should write, you know, 150 blogs, and this is why I want you to do it, then like, here's my example. So I was working for an online education client. And they saw really expensive live courses for things like learning Python, web development, product management, stuff like that. And I said to them, like, and I was actually billing this client, Hurley. And I said to them, that this is the time 2020. Right, when I sort of started, and I said to them, Why don't you for each discipline that you have? Why don't you come up with like, why don't we come up with, like, say, 1520 questions that people ask, when they're evaluating this type of career. So like, you know, what companies hire Python developers? How long does it take to learn Python? Like, basically these types of questions, and we verticalized those questions across every one of their disciplines. And we wrote basically answers in a new section of the website that had all these answers to these questions. And the traffic just went crazy, like it was what it's at now. But it's definitely over like 10,000 a day, to these 150 to 200 articles or whatever then ended up being. And literally, like, that was just the thought that I had, right? And they took the ball and just ran with it, right? So if you're charging hourly, that thought is worth what $300 An hour, versus if your consultant being paid, you know, $10,000 a month, that's your, you know, that thought comes with the package of being a consultant, right? So, you know, I was, I'm okay, because that was actually a really great case study for me and all that stuff. But if I had to do it all, again, I would not be doing hourly.

Nick LeRoy  23:24

Right, and I think you would probably admit, as well as some that I go through, as well, as it really goes hand in hand with just the confidence of the value that you're providing, I think when you have a little bit less confidence in what you can provide to a company, it's a lot easier to hide behind, you know, an hourly rate and potentially even a cheap hourly rate. Whereas if you go in, and you know that you have the value, and you're going to set up a framework that is going to exponentially return, you know, your cost a lot easier there to puff up your chest and say, This is what it is. And that necessarily fluctuate, because you know, you're gonna help someone

Steve Toth  23:59

I did, I at least felt a little bit okay about it. Because the most average charge that client was 15k a month, and that was pretty awesome. But what I remember when I pitched him, my hourly rate in my head was $200. And when when I looked him in the eye, I said, I'm gonna go to 300. And I just said, 300, and he accepted it. So at least I felt a little better about it at that time. But yeah, looking back on it, I would have done things much differently. Yeah,

Nick LeRoy  24:29

it's interesting. It's not a perfect science, at least again, from my experience, you know, you don't want to do these flat fees. Because if you don't really budget, kind of the time that you think is going to go into it, you very much can still lose. So a lot of people say, you know, you should always do consulting work. It shouldn't be tied to hourly rates. But I do think we have to be smart in how we approach it so that we don't lose in the

Steve Toth  24:51

end. Yeah, all right. Definitely. I think it also comes with confidence. And like you yourself building In your newsletter and your presence on social media and all that stuff, that helps you charge more because they people basically, you know, if you're not, like immersed in SEO, you need a quick way to tell like, who knows their s**t and who doesn't, right. So people, you know, we have social proof, right? We have newsletter subscribers, we have followers, when we post on LinkedIn or posts on Twitter, it gets retweets, or likes or whatever, people can see all that. So they, you know, you're good by association, because other people endorse you. So if anybody is looking at freelancing, I would say, you know, create content, like just don't don't worry about if, if anybody like doesn't, obviously, if you have like a really great, unique idea, that's going to give you an advantage, but just having content out there. And committing to that, like helps differentiate you and helps you sell.

Nick LeRoy  26:00

I think that should be everybody's biggest takeaway from this podcast episode. Really go out there, don't be afraid to share your knowledge. And it's not necessarily even about being right or wrong. I think there's a lot in this SEO industry where people like to point fingers, but there are very few things that are just hard to fact right and wrong. So push your theories, test them, and more importantly, measure them and share those results as well.

Steve Toth  26:28

Yeah, like, if you're, you're passionate, you should be able to write a little bit every week, no problem.

Nick LeRoy  26:36

Like an email newsletter, or just an email in general, right?

Steve Toth  26:39

podcast on YouTube, or like YouTube videos, tutorials. Yeah, social media posts on LinkedIn. I think LinkedIn is a hugely underutilized asset for stos. Like, you know, to me, there's only like, you know, a handful, maybe 10 People who are posting good SEO knowledge on LinkedIn. And there's lots of room for more people. I think,

Nick LeRoy  27:04

Steve, I'm so glad that you said that, admittedly, I am not the best. And I have tried several different ways. But I will say however, I agree with you that LinkedIn is very valuable when I went out on my own, and just even blasted out that traditional, okay, I'm out on my own, this is going to be so cool. You know, anyone paying me if they need some Elena $12,000.03 month project. And that was literally like, one. And it wasn't somebody that I knew it was my network, who liked it, or shared it that then reached out to that second and third tier. And like I said, it was a local web development firm that was taken on a project. And they knew they didn't have what it took to do the migration properly. We teamed up. It was awesome. And that was literally from taking 30 seconds to say on that ailable.

Steve Toth  27:53

That was like my post right before the escape room. Right? Like, and I can't tell you like how often this happens. Like, I get messages that say, Hey, Steve, we've been seeing your LinkedIn posts for a very long time, like I've, you know, been following you on LinkedIn for about a year. And then like, now it's time to reach out right, like, so there's, like, I always think in the back of my head, there's probably like 20 people who want to hire me at some point. So I just have to keep on, you know, being present on LinkedIn, so that when they're, you know, close to by the eye, they still remember who I am.

Nick LeRoy  28:35

And see, I don't want to belabor too much on this topic, but I bet you would agree. I've been writing the SEO for lunch for five years right now, and I'm sure very similar to the SEO notebook, you have some issues that, you know, resonate really, really well. And some that it feels like week after week just kind of exist for the sake of existing. And it's hard to push through those. But like you said that all of a sudden you get an email or phone call. It's like I've read everywhere you've published in the last year, you know, come work with me on this $50,000 project. It's just insane.

Steve Toth  29:09

Yeah, like whenever I have somebody who is a subscriber, and you know, follow has followed me for a while, like, it's also so much easier to close those people, right. And those are the exact type of people you want to be closing.

Nick LeRoy  29:24

As you said, you've already kind of proved yourself you have the social proof and the consistency, you know, maybe they just need to align on pricing. And most of those individuals you may agree like pricing is not necessarily their first concern. It's about fit and expertise.

Steve Toth  29:40

Yeah, for pricing. I'll give you another people like another tidbit and always what I one of the first things I check, I would highly recommend a LinkedIn premium subscription. First of all, just you can see that people who are on your profile, it makes you look more legit on LinkedIn. You And the thing that I like about it is when you go to the company insights, you can quickly see if the company is growing, right. So if that company has a clear trajectory of increasing their headcount, and you know, quarter over quarter, that's probably a good indication that they're in spin mode. So you can gauge that, right. And then you can also look at their funding rounds, right? So if they're in their series B, or more than you can maybe estimate that they're in the, I don't know, five to 10k range, or, you know, if they're even going beyond that, right. So I love LinkedIn insights for helping me gauge the level of their budget. And also just, you know, I feel almost like I can't confirm this. But if you if you're on somebody who has a premium profile, you know, that they can see if you visit it or not. So like maybe they're almost like, obligated to contact you that they land on your page after they do.

Nick LeRoy  31:01

And that's awesome. I've actually been on the edge of whether I was going to subscribe or not. And I think that just pushed me over. I've been doing a lot of manual work, you get your leads, you know, hopefully they have a branded email account. So you know where they're coming from, check out their their role at LinkedIn. But it sounds like yeah,

Steve Toth  31:22

what was it gonna stay on? I just have oh, just escaped me. Oh, yeah. I just use the employee, lowest level LinkedIn, I don't do the prospecting or anything like that. I strictly do inbound leads. So I think the job seeker account is what it's called. It's like 35 bucks a month.

Nick LeRoy  31:46

Pretty low risk, right?

Steve Toth  31:49

Yeah, it's I just keep it on, I don't even think twice about it.

Nick LeRoy  31:53

Well, I know what I'm doing as soon as we hang up here. But fortunately, for everybody else, we're still here. So let's jump into that. Now you've had you know, two incredible years, you're continuing to grow, you've shared with us a lot of your knowledge. So thank you. What I want to talk about is we recently received an email anyone on the SEO notebook and your various social that you're hiring. Is your goal to do you want to start an agency? Are you looking to just get some help walk us through kind of the decision here?

Steve Toth  32:25

Yeah, definitely not an agency like definitely not, I want to stay close to the work. I'll preface this with saying my first year was me hiring former colleagues of mine to be freelancers. So they would help me with things like content briefs. And, and you know, still with me doing the overall strategy, but just literally helping me with sort of the grunt work. And I was project managing everything. And then in my second year, I hired a full time VA, so somebody who could work nine to five, Monday through Friday, on Eastern Standard Time. And basically, I could just delegate things to directly. And if I found that the VA was overloaded, I could still service my clients with the help of those colleagues who are freelancers. But the problem that I see with that is that, you know, I'm constantly the person who's in the meetings, taking all the follow ups from the meetings, making the loom videos to show the Freelancers what I need to do sending that work to either the VA or the freelancer, and then having it come back. So me having to keep track of when all this stuff is coming back, then, you know, putting my final seal of approval on it and then sending it to the client. And that's work that I don't want to be doing anymore. So my thought and really, I didn't seek anybody's like this was all just from me, thinking long and hard about what I need is I basically would like a sidekick in the meetings with me to be privy to everything that's going on in the account, for me to offer that value to my clients to say, Okay, we need to do X, Y, and Z, we need to rejig this page, or we need to incorporate Search Console keywords into this page and maybe consolidate these two other pages. And instead of me saying that, we have to do that to the client, and then me like putting together all the tasks and managing all that I would just like somebody to be in that conversation totally. And then once the meeting is done, they make sure that all those things are done. That's kind of the role that I envision. And I'm willing to Yeah, like i I'm willing to pay like seven between 72 and 80k a year to have somebody who's you know, well spoken, can attend meetings can offer value to the clients be organized and helped me take care of all this work?

Nick LeRoy  35:08

And how's the process gone? Are you still interviewing and looking?

Steve Toth  35:11

Yeah, I'm literally in the thick of it right now I just got off an interview that was not good. Prior to this, I was actually really excited about him. But it just honestly, like he did not prepare at all. And I was like, okay, sure, whatever. Like, I was like, Okay, so are you gonna get into your presentation? He's like, ah, hold on a second, pulls up, my email says, Okay, you can either present on something you did, or you can break down another site. And he's like, Oh, well, what do you want me to do? What do you want me to do? I can do either. I'm like, Well, every other candidate had PowerPoint presentation, like, you know, did all this stuff. So I had to end it short, I gave him honest feedback. But it's going other than that interview, it's going fairly well, that two people that I hired that I interviewed before that I could see both of them doing the job and doing okay, I've got a few more lined up. And the real decision I think I have to make about this is Do I look for somebody who has a lot of prior SEO experience and knowledge? Or do I go with somebody who's got the soft skills and the organization that I need? And do I teach them sort of from the ground up? So I'm teaching them the way I want things to be done? Because as you know, if you're an SEO that could mean many different things. So I am just kind of wrestling with that question right now.

Nick LeRoy  36:44

Well, I will volunteer my opinion, you can take it for what you like, but I have hired people before that I felt were a fantastic fit on the technical side, and maybe less of a fit from a culture and communication perspective. Those people very rarely, if ever work out, unless you're going to like stick them in a corner and have them execute. Whereas I've had more success. And there's they have their own headaches. If you find someone who is an effective communicator, and you can teach them SEO, because I find it's far more difficult to take somebody who's not an effective communicator, and to train them there than it is to take someone who is a good speaker and teach them the technical aspects of SEO.

Steve Toth  37:31

Yeah, I agree. That's kind of, there's a, I've got, I've got some people who are, like, super smart, like people that I have zoomed with in the past, just because I wanted to pick their brains because I thought they were so smart. And they ended up applying to the job. And I'm like, is this what I want? Like, do I want another me on the call? Or do I want like, Yeah, somebody who has an interest in SEO, which is obviously important, but, you know, as they learn as the months progress, like, they're actually sort of getting really like into it, right? That's kind of what I'm thinking would be the ideal scenario is, you know, to have somebody who's got the communication skills, who's well organized, who can write those skills that basically that I want, and then, you know, help them grow their skills over time. And, and, you know, just teach them what I need to be done the way I want it to be done. It's versus having to debate me on whether we should do something or not.

Nick LeRoy  38:38

Well, I think that's probably the last thing you want, you know, I think healthy discussion and challenging one or two things here, just saying, Hey, can you explain to me why you're doing this versus that, that's always appreciate. But if it's day in day out, you know, Steve, why are you doing this robots. txt file? Or why are you gonna do JavaScript beggar? That's bad? Yeah, that's a completely different conversation, then we're

Steve Toth  39:01

designing the kind of stuff that you want to be doing for your client, right? Like, like, I want to focus on this for the client. But if you're, you know, like, I find like, yeah, there's, there's one candidate who took like, a very, like, surgical approach to the website. I'm like, if, you know, like, first of all, I thought that the approach that he took, even if you did fix all those things wouldn't yield the greatest results. And, and, you know, if we were to highlight all those things, and want to fix those things on the website, that would take away from the other more impactful stuff that I think we should be doing, right. So, you know, by having somebody who is completely, you know, not an SEO and jumping into a position like that you completely avoid those types of things, which I'm thinking could be a way to save my sanity.

Nick LeRoy  39:56

Yeah, and I think kind of final thought on that. To it really depends as well what type of clients, you know, you and I tend to work on larger clients, where you and I also know that just makes the effective communication components so much more important. Because not everything is going to get done and the technical debt, to be able to get some basic things is just going to be incredible. So you need to be able to push the right things, prioritize them and jump through all the hoops. On the contrary side, if you're working with small businesses, which I know you're not necessarily, the more surgical approach might make sense, because you have access to the back end, and you're really trying to get every little quarter inch of results possible. So I can see you, I just don't know if the first is right for you.

Steve Toth  40:46

Yeah, relying being an SEO consultant and relying on the clients developers poses a lot of challenge in many cases. So yeah, like, there's a that it really does come down to? How do you want to run your business? Where do you think the low hanging fruit is? Like, what type of things do you want to be doing for the client? Can you be okay, with their images being too large? Or like, can you sleep at night? With that? Well, you know, you build out this, like that education hub that I was describing earlier, right? Like, you kind of have to I and you know, also like I would say for you, and I like being the CEOs of your one person company, you kind of like having the control over what you do. Right, which is, I think just a natural thing for people in our position. So you know, I'm just thinking long and hard about that right now.

Nick LeRoy  41:46

I love that. And hopefully, you will give us an update as you hire, and then just go through that, that process. I'll be very interested to see what Steve of six months tells us.

Steve Toth  41:57

Yeah, I got I got 135 applicants in five days. For that for that position. That was just one blast to my newsletter, a post on Facebook in a post on LinkedIn.

Nick LeRoy  42:08

All right, well, I'm not going to post a link, then when this goes live, I suspect you'll be making a hire by then. But good luck with you know, I think only good things will come from it. But let's jump to my last question about nine to five. So is there any chance that you would consider going back? I know you and I both know, Eli? And I was very surprised by his response, he actually told me yes. And it was a combination. He did. I know, I thought for sure he was going to tell me to go bleep myself or something. But he told me just kind of a combination of one. He went out to be reliant on the money. I think we both know from our conversations and our experiences that freelance has the opportunity to make many multiples that you would otherwise. But he said that freelancing basically can be lonely, and he likes to talk and be with people. But also if there was a situation where if he felt that you'll kind of freelance life didn't challenge him. And he said, those are the two situations that he could see himself actually going back, which I thought was very unique. And certainly not trying to change your answer to this question, but it's one that I'm going to continue to ask everybody that I talked to you.

Steve Toth  43:24

Well, I mean, look at a guy like Kevin indig, right. Like he could easily go out and become a freelancer and run his own consulting business, but he likes the big challenges of companies like GE to and Shopify, right. So certainly, like, there, there's more than just money to consider with all this. But the thing that would make me say a definite no, is that I'm a content creator. So I want to keep doing that. And, you know, if I wanted to really zone in, and you know, I can't say like, I would just say this, Brian Dean and what he did with Backlinko is super inspiring. Is any SEO notebook even close to that at this point? Not a chance. Right? But like if I if I knew what he did was basically like, you know, pump out, you know, a few articles a week. Basically, everything that he published on backlink low went through his own lens. So he ensured that the quality was like super, super high. You know, he did it he did amazing things through that right. So I don't think I will be freelance doing freelance client work forever. But I don't see myself going back to a company and becoming an employee. I'm more see myself evolving, how I make my money, probably more through content than than actual consulting.

Nick LeRoy  44:57

I think you and I are very similar and that aspect. And it seems like you and I are also on the same page when it comes to Brian Dean, I had shared recently one of his posts, post acquisition from sem rush, and somebody had kind of dug into me on Twitter stating, you know, this is all very obvious, and it was Ross Hudgens, you know, someone that I, you know, value his opinion highly. And he responded, You guys, this may not be net new information or something that, you know, Brian D, and quote unquote, coin, but he was able to take a topic that is complicated for most, and distill it down into a really easy to read guide with, like custom imagery. And I think there's a lot of opportunity in the internet to do just that. Like we're not it's the internet is not about necessarily recreating the wheel. But there's so much that is so technical. So dumbed down, help people out. And obviously, you can, I mean, they never said how much you know, he made from that, but we can assume that it was a pretty nice payday.

Steve Toth  46:02

I'll also mentioned that, it's worth noting that I have a WordPress plugin that I'm developing right now, called G score, it's g score.io. And basically, it helps you integrate Search Console data into existing content. So that's another area that I'm getting into. And then I've already invested significant amount of money into this plugin. It's pre launched, but, you know, eventually doing some sass like that is also something that is really appealing to me.

Nick LeRoy  46:32

I think that's going to be very exciting. I'll have to check that out. After we hang up here. Jumping into a question about aspiring freelancers, do you have any recommendations or books maybe outside of product led SEO that you and I both would recommend that you tell people regularly to check out?

Steve Toth  46:52

Yeah, for sure. So there's a book called The Go Giver, which is, basically, it encourages you to give away all your knowledge without any restrictions. And it focuses on you wanting to scale the way that you give away your knowledge. So don't just give away all your knowledge on a one to one type of relationship, try to give it away to many people. So the obvious one, there is social media. But for me, it's also my newsletter. And basically, the idea there is like, you give away all this knowledge, you build up a level of reciprocity with your audience, then you let your audience know how they can help you. They can sign up to SEO, no book, or they can hire me. And then those people end up giving back to you, right, so that's kind of like the basic tenants of that book, The Go Giver. And then there's another one called Million Dollar consulting, which Eli, I know recommended to you as well. And that just basically is yeah, the value based pricing, how to structure contracts. Just a lot of like the business side of being a consultant.

Nick LeRoy  48:03

I loved the million dollar consultant. I'm not a big reader, but I kind of put that one down. So I'm gonna take your advice that I'm going to be ordering go giver to,

Steve Toth  48:13

you only need the one go giver book, there's like four editions of them. You just need the one. It's like an hour long, your book yet super short.

Nick LeRoy  48:21

Yeah, I know, Alan has like 100 bucks, too. So I've been trying to look at those as well. Maybe the million dollar speaking might have value as well. But definitely those two seem like a great head start for anybody who's looking for reading materials. But finally, I just wanted to thank you, Steve, really appreciate your time today. For people that are listening. Can you share with us how they can get in touch with you?

Steve Toth  48:46

Yeah, for sure. So you can subscribe to my weekly strategy, email list, and Seo notebook.com. And then you can also just find me on LinkedIn. Steve Toth, T O th, on Twitter, very rarely. So it's not the best place to follow me. But LinkedIn is probably the best place.

Nick LeRoy  49:08

And it has saved me so much. I will make sure to include all those links as well as the resources that Steve had recommended below. Thank you see you. I'll talk to you later. All right. Thanks, Nick. All right. This concludes the second episode of the SEO Freelancer podcast. If you want to be alerted to when the next episode will be going live. Please sign up for email alerts at the SEO freelancer.com

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit seofreelancer.substack.com

Nick LeRoy has verified Derek’s revenue via tax documentation.

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Introducing Derek Jacobson

Derek Jacobson, owner of Emerald Consulting is a freelance SEO consultant since 2014. Derek reached out to me shortly after publishing the Ronell six-figure freelancer post and immediately caught my attention. Not only did he meet the six-figure income requirement but he told me he did it nearly exclusively through Upwork!

Little did I know that Derek and I live really close to each other so we met up for beers prior to this interview. Even more baffling is that during our in-person we had discovered that we had a very brief career overlap at an organization prior to both of us going freelance!

I want to thank Derek for agreeing to be my guinea pig as I launch the first-ever Six-Figure Freelancer PODCAST episode.

View Derek’s top-rated upwork profile

Connect with Derek directly on Linkedin

If you are interested in being a future SEO Freelancer podcast guest? Please email me directly at [email protected]

Podcast Transcription

Nick LeRoy 0:02

Welcome to the SEO Freelancer podcast. I'm your host, Nick LeRoy. Each month I'll be interviewing one freelancer to understand their freelance journey and how they've been able to make over $100,000 in one year. Let's not wait another minute and let's jump right into this interview.

Nick LeRoy 0:40

Derek, you've made over $450,000 from Upwork with your SEO career, is that true?

Dereck Jacobson 0:47

Yes. Yeah, just over 450,000

Nick LeRoy 0:51

That's awesome. Can you do us a favor? Can you just introduce yourself a little bit, give us a little bit of a description of your background and how long you've been freelancing.

Dereck Jacobson 1:01

I'm Derrick Jacobson. I've been doing SEO for 12 years professionally. 15 years total doing it on the side for getting getting into the real world. reopened Minnesota. Graduated from St. Thomas and I am the founder of emerald consulting is an SEO consulting firm.

Nick LeRoy 1:22

So walk me through a little bit so you said you went to college? One I'd love to hear first and foremost how relevant you think that is to an SEO career. And then to walk me through a little bit what your first full time job was on a school and if you feel comfortable Share with us your starting salary.

Dereck Jacobson 1:40

Yeah, absolutely. So um, I actually probably I didn't learn anything for when it comes to SEO of from college. I think college is great for certain things, but when it comes to really getting that technical expertise that you kind of need from SEO. Yeah, I don't I didn't get a lot of value there. I was basically self taught. I learned how to do SEO as I was trying to promote a landscaping company that I ran in college. Once I actually graduated, my first job was at fine law, so part of Thomson Reuters. So I make $19 an hour, basically just claiming and optimizing local businesses for law firms all day. So

Nick LeRoy 2:21

Derek, and I actually had a very brief overlap at fine law at a time and that was my second job out of college, so small world. And funny enough, Derek and I didn't even meet really until after we started this podcast, and he had emailed me to be on it. So it was fun to see that there was local and that we had overlap without even really knowing that.

Dereck Jacobson 2:48

Like everybody kind of gets their start in SEO at Thomson Reuters that find law. So many people I've worked with started or had at least some experience with them. So it's kind of a niche market.

Nick LeRoy 3:00

So with that in mind, when was it that you decided that freelancing was an option for you? Were you freelancing, part time as you were working at Biola? Or another job or your what's kind of your story with freelancing?

Dereck Jacobson 3:14

Yeah, so I've kind of always had that entrepreneurial mindset. I've always wanted to start a business or make extra money on the side. That's personally why I got into landscaping in college. It was a better way to make money than just doing a job working at McDonald's. And funnily enough, it was during I think it was 2014 I bought a Tony Robbins masters, money masters DVD series, and that's how I got started with freelance. I think he was interviewing Russell Brunson. And he was mentioning this place called oDesk, which actually turned into Upwork. He hired like a freelancer to design his website or greerton zine or whatever it was. I can't remember. And I was like, build my website. And so I checked out oDesk and realized that I could actually create a profile there. And that's, that's really where I learned that I can. There's a market out there for freelancers, and so right after watching that DVD series, jumped on there, start re that profile and get started.

Nick LeRoy 4:15

Awesome. addition to your nine to five job or did you already commit to the freelance life full time and then just went straight through oDesk or what is now

Dereck Jacobson 4:24

Upwork? Yeah, so that was I was doing that part time. So I was working at target at the time. And so I was basically moonlighting as a freelancer half the time when I was working there. So the freelance part time for about three years before I decided to make it my full time job.

Nick LeRoy 4:42

Tell us a bit more about your process and joining up work, you know, what was the process and just getting signed up? You're starting to get some projects, as well as would you recommend Upwork as a platform for people that want to start freelancing?

Dereck Jacobson 4:57

Yeah, so setting up a profile, getting set up with Upwork is very simple. It's kind of like setting up your LinkedIn profile. You go and you sign up, you give them your basic information. You can input anything from job experience to past clients, and then you can put a description of what you do, what products you offer. And so that part's very simple, actually. Getting the clients and getting getting freelance gigs is obviously a little bit more difficult, but I would highly recommend anybody that's trying to get into freelance to at least give up work to try theirs. It is the largest marketplace for freelance jobs out there. So yeah, I mean, this you know, that's where I got started. That's where I still get the majority of my leads. So I would highly recommend it for anyone just starting out.

Nick LeRoy 5:47

And that's awesome. Let's kind of jump right into what I think might be a misconception with Upwork. I think a lot of people assume that individuals on Upwork are potentially overseas or working for a really cheap rate. What do you think is the perception of Upwork as a whole and they do have any issues be able to charge reasonable rates?

Dereck Jacobson 6:11

Yeah, so there's definitely kind of that Miss, conception of Upwork on on that front. I mean, there's definitely those the cheap jobs that people you know, there's always gonna be the company's clients that just want to work regardless, and those aren't the ones that I want to work with. But from from one marketplace, I would probably put Upwork at the top you know, there's there's fiber there's freelancer.com and a bunch of other ones that there's definitely a lot more tailored towards the the cost saving market.

Nick LeRoy 6:46

Would you recommend Upwork to others?

Dereck Jacobson 6:50

Yeah, I would definitely recommend Upwork to anybody that's just starting out. Freelancing is a great opportunity to get get your name out there. You know, there's 1000s, you know, hundreds of 1000s of job opportunities on their platform. And they have all types of experience levels too. So there's companies looking for highly experienced people, but then also entry level, freelancers. So there's, there's really an opportunity for everyone.

Nick LeRoy 7:19

And you had mentioned that were several competitors to Upwork as a freelancer and you know, even previously, you know what oDesk was? Is there something about Upwork specifically that you enjoy? Or do you actually recommend being available across multiple platforms?

Dereck Jacobson 7:36

Yeah, so when I first started out, I was trying to sell for as many of these online marketplaces as possible, but then I realized it's hard to really manage all of those different clients. So I really focused on Upwork because it was the highest quality, there's the highest quality job there. They had more clients or more potential employers there than any of the other ones. And I also didn't feel like it was as cheap there wasn't as the of the sort of sees workers competing for for jobs. I

Nick LeRoy 8:11

think of Upwork and my limited experience using it as they do, to my knowledge, have some high fees. Can you walk us through a little bit how that works? And does that play a role in your rate on Upwork? Or potentially the projects that you'll take?

Dereck Jacobson 8:26

Yeah, so off work. Similar to the other ones, they do obviously have to make money so they have their service fees. I think the way that they structure it is for the first $500 for any client that you work with, they charge 20% And then from $500 to $10,000. It's a 10% fee, and then above $10,000, it goes down to 5%. So I definitely factored that into a job that I take on. I actually charge more for upward clients than I do for a non Upwork ones just to kind of counterbalance that out of service fee. I also have a minimum requirement that I take out so I I won't take on a job that's less than point $500 Total just because it'll make sure that I'm not paying too much towards that service fee at the same time upper gives me a great opportunity to work with clients throughout the world. Really so to me, it's it's worth the fee. There's definitely things that yeah, it's not it's not fun paying, you know, 20% but it's it's kind of just a necessary evil.

Nick LeRoy 9:32

And correct me if I'm wrong, Derek, I believe you had told me offline. There's like a guarantee to getting paid. Is that correct?

Dereck Jacobson 9:40

Yeah, yep. So the way upward works is if you're working on an hourly rates, they you're guaranteed to get paid for the hours that you put in so you start the clock, the timer. And if you if you're monitoring that time, as guaranteed that you'll get paid for the hours that you put in.

Nick LeRoy 10:03

So as someone who's maybe starting out, you know, that could be one of the biggest benefits and you and I both know you're outside of these platforms, there's no guarantee that you get paid unless you're going to have your fee up front. So I suspect that that takes a significant risk out of the situation that could make Upwork you know, more palatable for individuals that are you know, just trying to start off

Dereck Jacobson 10:29

Yeah, absolutely. That's you know, that's definitely one of the key factors to up work or what I said there something that I really enjoyed about that is you literally get paid each week. So once you get started You work a week you wait the week as the client reviews your work, and then week later you get paid so you're getting a paycheck basically every single week if you have repetitive jobs on there, so that's nice and is guaranteed. Now, there's a drawback of that is a forecast, monitor your work and so they're taking screenshots, checking how many keystrokes you have most clicks, and that can be not exactly the most fun way to work. Yeah, it's

Nick LeRoy 11:11

definitely a balance but yeah, as somebody who has been stiffed on payments before and you know, I've had situations where 567 grand has been 4567 months late. You know, that's just one of those things where when you go freelance, you know, you don't have that type of security net. So while up work does have some additional costs. It is good to see that there's an upside to it as well. You still get to kind of be free in this consulting and freelance world, but you have some structure of regular income, assuming you get the projects.

Dereck Jacobson 11:48

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And even when you're working with clients offline, you can have great contracts. They even they can be guaranteed contracts. But as you know, as a small business, if they don't pay it's usually not worth calling small claims court to try to get paid if it's you know, only for a couple $1,000. So

Nick LeRoy 12:06

that kind of goes back to post that I'm in the process of writing. It's like having reserves is just critical. I mean, it's really easy to sign these contracts and just kind of write on a calendar when you're getting paid. But the reality is until it lands in your bank account, you have not been paid.

Dereck Jacobson 12:25

Exactly. Yeah. You don't want to be you don't want to enforce all the contracts. You don't.

Nick LeRoy 12:29

Yeah. So let's go pass up work and let's just talk about freelancing. as a whole and making that first $100,000 in a year. I mean, that's a huge milestone to hit. You know, when when did you hit that? Like, how long was it after you started freelancing?

Dereck Jacobson 12:48

Yeah, so I started freelancing, part time in 2014. I did that for about a year and a half and then officially, went on my own in middle of 2016 and took me about six months. So actually 2007 was the first year that I hit 100k for the full year. So almost my, you know, a year and a half in I was able to hit the 100k mark,

Nick LeRoy 13:13

almost exclusively through Upwork, or was that 100% Through Upwork. So

Dereck Jacobson 13:19

that time I had one contract is actually with 3am. And so that was a part time contract. So I was doing full time freelancing with that contract. And so it was a combination of the two. And then 2018 was the first year that I hit hard K through artwork, and I was pretty much exclusively upward buttons that I hit that mark with.

Nick LeRoy 13:41

So that's just proof right there that you don't have to work for $10 an hour on Upwork to make freelancing work. Yeah, there's real money to be made. And Derek has shown us that this is the case. Congratulations on that, by the way. Thanks.

Dereck Jacobson 13:55

Yeah, I appreciate that. And yes, I mean, I Yeah, any anyone that's looking to get into freelance the thing, the number one recommendation I have is make sure that you're not trying to compete on price that's just that's not the way to go. You should value your time and the work that you do.

Nick LeRoy 14:12

And moving forward is up work still your plan of you know, continuing to be a significant role for your revenue or, you know, is it something you plan on moving out of, you know, what are some thoughts there?

Dereck Jacobson 14:26

Yes, so, right now, I would say Upwork is about 50% of my total income. I do get it still proud to say that 75% of my leaves are through Upwork I don't see myself taking getting rid of Upwork but I am ideally trying to move a little bit more towards clients that are off off of work just because I don't want to continue to have to pay that. That that fee, but yeah, I do see for the foreseeable future. I'll continue with Upwork it's been a great source of leads and expected to continue that way.

Nick LeRoy 15:04

You know, build out your profile, you'll continue to get good ratings and show that you're a reliable asset. You know, people are only gonna want to work with you more and more.

Dereck Jacobson 15:14

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's really a snowball effect. So when you first start out with awkward landing that first job, I mean, I think it took me three or four months. And the second job was probably another month or two, but it's, you know, like a snowball effect mentioned it just gets easier and easier. And now I no longer have to actually apply to most of these jobs and most of the clients are coming to me asked me for help which is a lot better than having to constantly create new proposals and set and submit job proposals to so on there. I

Nick LeRoy 15:45

love that. But let's jump into freelancing full time. So when you started you had obviously worked nine to five before, but what would you say was the most difficult aspect of going out on your own?

Dereck Jacobson 16:00

So I say there's two things. The first thing was being a freelancer when you're doing full time it can be very lonely, right? I mean, when you're working your nine to five job typically you're in an office, you have a bunch of co workers, you're you have a lot more human interaction. Whereas when I went full time freelance, I was basically working and living out of my condo so I was there 24/7 Almost and that gets very lonely. And so that was that was definitely a big struggle. I was able to kind of balance that with getting an office and rent it on we work office for a few years, which was nice. I really helped for no more on the social aspect of things. And then the other struggle is obviously not knowing exactly where your next job is gonna come from. There's always always a little bit worried a little bit more worried about your financial situation, making ends meet and all that. So there's more stress when it comes to freelancing.

Nick LeRoy 16:58

Right. And, you know, you've done freelancing before the pandemic and obviously now during the pandemic would you say that the loneliness is that, would you equate kind of pandemic situation to how you felt back then? And has it gotten easier with a pandemic to be able to handle it or walk me through a little bit?

Dereck Jacobson 17:18

Sure. Yeah. So yeah, I guess the pandemic sucked in the sense that I had to give up my office and work remotely or work from home again. The good thing was I was used to it but a lot of other people weren't so when those virtual happy hours with friends was something that you actually look forward to.

Nick LeRoy 17:38

So you go freelancing full time, you know? You're kind of figuring out where the bumps are, you know, at this point, is it safe to say that you're probably making more money than you have in your previous nine to five jobs as well?

Dereck Jacobson 17:52

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. more than doubled my income on a yearly basis since I've moved full time to freelancing, especially over the last few years. There's just a lot more opportunity there. You're, you're actually paid for the work that you do instead of just having your salary and yeah, yeah, it's definitely a lot more lucrative.

Nick LeRoy 18:18

And that's the thing that I love. It's like once you're able to figure out how it works and that you have the skill set to really support this lifestyle. You know, the amount of money that you can make really is limitless. But what you do find in my own experiences, you try to balance you know, do you want to be stuck working 24/7 to maximize dollars in your pocket? Or do you really want to maximize the amount of time with your other hobbies? And with that, I'd love to just jump right into when we compare hours to hours. You know, where are you right, working more now, as a freelancer than you were nine to five? Or how are the changed over the years?

Dereck Jacobson 18:59

Yeah, so when I 95 rules I had they were mostly contract jobs. So once I hit that 40 hour mark, I was done. I was out. It wasn't gonna work any more than that. Now, I initially did full freelance full time. I probably wasn't putting in the 40 hours, mostly just because I didn't have enough client tell base up so I didn't have enough hours to work with those. And then there's only so much you can do if you're not doing client work. So I was probably only putting in close to 30 hours when I first went full time. Now, probably closer to 50 to 60 hours depending on the week. I work probably six to seven days a week. Weekends usually put in a couple hours. Unnecessarily because I have to but it's something I enjoy to do and if I have a little bit of free time, something that's something else to do, especially more than than winter is when it's cold outside.

Nick LeRoy 19:56

Here in Minnesota for everybody who's not aware, it gets blistering cold. You know we have what feels like 10 feet of snow I admittedly do a fair amount more freelancing projects during the winter. And then I try to scale back in the summer.

Dereck Jacobson 20:14

Yeah, absolutely. I golf a lot in the summer. So it's the one nice thing about freelancing is if I have a friend that calls and wants to golf in the afternoon, I'm always free was able to hit the links.

Nick LeRoy 20:25

And you know, you bring up a really good point I'd love to hear your thought on this. There's this idea of nine to five work where we know we kind of have to be button seed for even a remote world you kind of imply you're here the whole time. But when you went freelance for me personally I really kind of adopted that nine to five world in freelance. And as I've been doing it more and more I continue to pull back and I can do what you said I can meet you for you know around a golf for a long lunch. But how was making that adjustment for you? Like you said, if you're not working you're not getting paid? So where you always kind of working nine to five regardless.

Dereck Jacobson 21:04

Yeah, so when I was when I started out, I try to keep it just the same as my the nine to five jobs. So I would start at 730 and I would go until four or 435 o'clock at night, and I still do that for the most part most days. That's my schedule. But I'm also you know, if there's something I would rather do I need to go get groceries or I need to go get the oil change. I just do that at a random time. So there's just a lot more flexibility in the schedule. But I also think it's important to have a set schedule. You know, when I first started out, I thought that I would just wake up whenever I want to turn on the laptop, fire that up and start working on for a couple hours, go. Go do something else and come back. realize pretty quickly that that's just not the way it works. If you really want to be successful in freelancing you do have to treat it as a full time job.

Nick LeRoy 21:57

Hopefully 100% I do think you will agree though, there's something about having to run to the bank or the grocery store like 1pm on a Tuesday. That is just amazing compared to every other hour of the day, people and

Dereck Jacobson 22:12

it's so nice. Most people that know me know that I don't have a lot of patience. And so like sitting in traffic is not something I like to do. I usually when I was working my nine to five I started at 7am Just so I wouldn't have to deal with traffic as nicely my freelancing is yes you can do your errands in the middle of the day when other people are working. It's a lot less it is

Nick LeRoy 22:32

just another kind of freelance life. Exactly. So continuing with comparisons to nine to five roles. Talk me a bit about stress. What do you what do you think? Has it been progressively worse? You know, as you freelance more in comparison is a better?

Dereck Jacobson 22:51

Yes, so freelancing is definitely a lot more stressful, but part of that is because I make it more stressful when I when I went full time freelancing i i wasn't working that much. So it wasn't all that stressed about the amount of work I had. But I was stressed about like I mentioned before, making sure that you you can pay your mortgage, you can buy groceries and everything you're making ends meet. Now I am more stressed because I have not you know my plates constantly fold so I tend to bring on new clients more often than I should. But and so I'm constantly stressed with the amount of work but at the same time. That's you know, I'm doing that to myself. I think there's there's a balancing act that you can you can definitely have where you're not. You don't need to keep working constantly, like I tend to do

Nick LeRoy 23:48

offline before jumping on this. Vacations. It's a whole nother experience when you're a freelancer versus nine to five where you just kind of throw you're out of office on it and you'll be back in a week. You walk me through a little bit how stress plays a role in the vacations you're taking or maybe when you're not taking.

Dereck Jacobson 24:07

Yeah. So as a full time employee with the PTO is great. You get to go on vacation, you're getting paid you're not worried about anything you just completely shut down for a week, whereas relaxing is a vacation is almost more stressful, at least for me. Just try and get everything done before going on vacation. Dealing with clients when you're on vacation as much as you can tell them that you'll be offline and working on pockets. They kind of still expect you to respond to emails if they have an emergency like I I recently had. And then getting back into things that seems like there's things pile up and you get back and you're even more stressed out after your vacation. So it's nice to take a vacation whenever you want, but at the same time, we have to deal with all the clients and everything so it's never really shut down

Nick LeRoy 24:56

completely. So so far we have about six checkmark than the freelancing is awesome. But we finally have our first one where maybe it's starting to inch a little bit towards the be really cautious and prepared. Be joining a freelance world if you love your vacations. Yes, yes, absolutely. I will say I may be one of the rare people that I don't mind a workstation. And what I mean by that is I'm plenty of times where you know for instance, we rented an Airbnb up north a couple hours so we can just install the ice fishing here in Minnesota with my kids during their spring break. But what I did is I woke up and I worked a couple hours every morning while they were just kind of you know, eating the breakfast getting ready for the day. And it really just allowed me to still be connected. But then when I was done you know, I was able to kind of push off anything more until the next day. So there is definitely ways to balance that and I suspect that all freelancers and consultants have different ways to approach it. Some will definitely be flat out. I'm not available. Some people may be like you Derek, you are available. Whether you like it or not, you know, I think this is a big learning opportunity. Would you agree?

Dereck Jacobson 26:10

For sure. Yep. I and I basically take the same approach to if I'm taking a vacation I'll usually wake up and I might work, you know, an hour or two each day at least get the important stuff out of the way respond any emails, there's any fires you have to put out. Take care of that. And then you have the rest of the day to tinge. I was trying to enjoy the vacation thinking about client needs.

Nick LeRoy 26:32

Last question about nine to five. So this is kind of the million dollar question here. And I love Eli's response to my last interview with him as well but his but would you ever go back to a nine to five role? And if you were like what makes it attractive or what specifically would prevent you from going back?

Dereck Jacobson 26:50

Yeah, there there's probably not enough money for me to go back to a nine to five personally I am. I consider myself highly driven, highly motivated. But I'm also not motivated to make somebody else's dream come true. Right. If I'm going to work hard, I want to make sure that I'm the one the beneficiary of it so frankly, I probably wasn't a great employee. I was always looking for how I could improve my career and not so much somebody else's. So yeah, I don't I don't ever see myself going back to the nine to five.

Nick LeRoy 27:27

Yeah, I suspect that's going to be a common response to for people that I continue to talk to, you know, it was really Eli's saying that when he wants to continue to be challenged or is given an opportunity to be challenged in a way that, you know, his current career is not allowing him that really made me kind of take a step back and think about it myself. But I'm really there with you. I would love to think that I was a perfect employee. But, you know, anybody who's listening to this that knows me or even managed me knows that I'm certainly not easy to work with. So I'm with you, Team freelancing. But the reality is, is I guess there's ever a day where I wasn't able to provide for my family. Now it certainly is not a bad choice to have to go work for someone else. Of course, absolutely.

Dereck Jacobson 28:14

Yes. I mean, you know, if I were to lose all my clients, that's a different thing.

Nick LeRoy 28:20

So Derek, as we kind of wrap up this podcast here, What recommendations would you have for aspiring freelancers, you know, there's people listening right now that are kind of questioning, you know, should I freelance, you know, what do you think about part time freelancing? Like, what recommendations do you have you have books, courses, anything along those lines that you'd recommend?

Dereck Jacobson 28:41

Yeah, so um, first off, I'm saying if if you're thinking of freelancing, go for it. At least try do part time. You know, I started I wake up at 430 in the morning, put in a couple hours for for I freelance clients and work at night. It's even if you're not looking to do it full time. It's just extra income. And maybe you will enjoy it. As for courses, or your biggest thing I would recommend is if find something that you're interested in and try to follow some experts see what they what they would recommend if there's, you know, there, if they have any books or that they're trying to sell or that they recommend, go out and buy, you know, I've spent so much money on different courses and coaching and DVD series like I mentioned earlier, and sometimes it's not worth it. But you know, even if you get one little nugget out of any purchase, it's it's going to be beneficial. So, I'm a big fan of Tony Robbins and so I've you know, I've gone to one of his seminars, I've purchased a lot of his different tapes and everything and, you know, that's that's helped me a lot. But I was constantly looking for new ways to improve and educate myself. Because like for SEO, you can't you can't really go to school to where it's it's you have to constantly be educating yourself.

Nick LeRoy 30:03

Very true. Curious from your perspective, knowing that you've been on the nine to five side and the freelance side for me personally, like any sort of consulting or growth management or growth hack box like I read them, but they didn't really stick but I find that now that I'm running a business, I am freelance full time. You know, for instance, I'm reading the million dollar consult by Ali wise now, and that was recommended to me by Eli, and it's like everything he says I just kind of nod my head and it makes so much more sense to me now as a freelancer. than if I were to have done this even five years ago. Do you say you have had the same approach?

Dereck Jacobson 30:43

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, I think the biggest thing is anytime you purchase something like a book or you know, a webinar or a course is it's really just needing to take action on on it, right. There's so many books that I've read that have great information, but if you don't actually follow through on it, then it doesn't really help you all so the thing that I've learned is, as a freelancer is actually trying to execute or trying to take action on on the recommendations or the you know, the knowledge that they provide.

Nick LeRoy 31:13

Well, thank you, Derek. I appreciate you joining us today for this podcast. Like I said, this is our very first six figure Freelancer podcast. I think it has gone very well. Can you let us know how we can connect with you online or if you have a product or website you'd like to promote?

Dereck Jacobson 31:30

Yeah, I appreciate you having me on Nick. You. There's a few ways you can contact me one is I have my website. It's emerald dot consulting. Or you can reach me at Derek at Emerald consulting.

Nick LeRoy 31:49

This concludes the first ever episode of the SEO freelancer podcast. If you want to be alerted to future episodes, please subscribe at theSEOfreelancer.com

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit seofreelancer.substack.com