By Rochelle Moulton
5
1010 ratings
The podcast currently has 44 episodes available.
If you’ve ever hesitated to put your voice “out there” because you’re not the “right” size, shape, age, race, gender, orientation, know that you’re not alone. But it’s time to step up and be heard:
Why it’s harder to sashay on stage with your megaphone when you’re different from the norm in your community (and yet you’ll be more memorable when you do).
How creating a routine—a schedule—can keep the fear harnessed.
Enlisting a partner(s)-in-crime to push you forward or back you up.
Scoping out the “competition” to remind yourself of how you’re different—and why you need to publish.
Using archetypes to rise above traditional thinking and claim a unique niche in your marketplace.
LINKS
Rochelle Moulton Email List | LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram
BOOK A STRATEGY CALL WITH ROCHELLE
RESOURCES FOR SOLOISTS
Join the Soloist email list: helping thousands of Soloist Consultants smash through their revenue plateau.
Soloist Events: in-person events for Soloists to gather and learn.
The Authority Code: How to Position, Monetize and Sell Your Expertise: equal parts bible, blueprint and bushido. How to think like, become—and remain—an authority.
TRANSCRIPT
00:00 - 00:39
Rochelle Moulton: Walking into a gym full of more or less fit people when you're struggling with your weight and fitness requires a certain kind of courage. The wrong coach, and I've witnessed a few of them, could easily make you turn around and never come back. Hello, hello. Welcome to the Soloist Life podcast, where we're all about turning your expertise into wealth and impact. I'm Rochelle Moulton. And today, I want to tell you a quick story and then talk about why your voice needs to be out there and we can talk a little bit about the how. So I
00:39 - 01:14
Rochelle Moulton: go to a gym where you have the option of buying sessions with 1 of their staff personal trainers. Now I've been a member there for about 5 years, so I've seen trainers come and go. And with few exceptions, they're usually in their 20s or early 30s, incredibly fit with the patience to work with whoever walks through the door. Sometimes, when I have nothing better to do, I eavesdrop on their conversations with clients to hear how they encourage or explain or just shoot the breeze. And it's kind of fun, you know, professionally really to see their techniques
01:15 - 01:52
Rochelle Moulton: and personality and action with all different kinds of people. But every once in a while, an outlier shows up. And I've been watching this 1 guy who's been around maybe a year. He doesn't look like any of the usual characters. He appears maybe 30 to 40 pounds overweight, and he wears their uniform in a baggy style, not like any of the other gym gods. And he seems like a nice enough guy, and he has 1 of the most infectious laughs I've ever heard. But I kept wondering, would someone serious who wants to get fit choose the
01:52 - 02:26
Rochelle Moulton: guy who doesn't look like he's figured it out for himself yet? Now, he seems consistently busy, and I've been idly wondering how he was doing. And then yesterday, watching him with a client made me see his appeal. Overheard his discussion with a new client who had lost 35 pounds and hit his first goal to get his weight down to 300 pounds. Now this coach was so supportive, he immediately engaged the guy in talking about what they could do together to get him to his next goal, which was 250 pounds, and about how it wasn't just a
02:26 - 02:58
Rochelle Moulton: number on a scale that defines success. They were clicking on so many levels, I was in awe. Because walking into a gym full of more or less fit people when you're struggling with your weight and fitness requires a certain kind of courage. Like the wrong coach, and I've witnessed a few of them, could easily make you turn around and never come back. I'm not gonna lie, I teared up a bit at how this man was being seen and supported in a way that would help him become the person he wanted to be. So why am I
02:58 - 03:37
Rochelle Moulton: telling you this story? Because it is so easy, I've done it myself, to decide that you aren't the right size, the right shape, the right gender, the right race, orientation, age, to deliver whatever message it is that you want to share. And when you're whatever is accepted as the norm, like say a straight white cis male, it's much easier to sashay onto social media, for example, and pull up your megaphone. But if, for whatever reason, you feel different and that difference is holding you back, I'm here to tell you it's time to let that go. Not
03:37 - 04:13
Rochelle Moulton: saying it's easy, let me tell you there are days I can't even look at LinkedIn, never mind post there, but getting your voice out there, Your uniquely powerful voice from your lived experience is everything. You will help people in ways you can't even imagine. So I'm gonna share a few tips and tricks to get yourself in the habit of sharing your ideas, of sharing how you help your ideal clients and buyers. So number 1 is set yourself a routine. Holding yourself accountable to a schedule helps in a few ways. I mean, first, it gets the time
04:13 - 04:43
Rochelle Moulton: to do it into your calendar, into your routine. Say you're going to do something as simple as posting a LinkedIn piece twice a week. Maybe you'll experiment at first to see what days and times work for you, but you know you want to deliver 2 posts a week. So you add that to your production schedule. Your client work, your business development, your writing, think of them as all part of what you produce each week. How much time do you need to write those 2 posts? How far in advance do you want to prep them? And there's
04:43 - 05:18
Rochelle Moulton: no 1 right answer here. You'll decide what works for you. My point here is when you think about pushing out ideas, it takes a lot of pressure off if you just make it part of your routine. Okay, number 2, enlist a partner in crime. Whether that's a friend, a spouse, your coach, find someone who will read or watch or listen to your stuff and give helpful feedback. I got in the habit early on of reading my draft emails to my husband. Now it has 2 advantages. 1 was that hearing it out loud pointed out where I
05:18 - 05:50
Rochelle Moulton: was too formal or too wordy. It gives me more of the reader perspective. And I actually do that with everything I write now to read it out loud first. The other is that the hubs is not in our sort of business. He's in commercial production. So he listens to it with a different ear and he will tell me when I'm being too buzzwordy or I get on my high horse. Co-hosting my first podcast was another way of punching through a whole bunch of concerns I had 8 years ago. Having a buddy podcast meant if I had
05:50 - 06:25
Rochelle Moulton: a bad day, he'd be on his game and vice versa. And we split the duties of production and marketing so it was never overwhelming and we always had each other's backs, which when you're a soloist is especially wonderful. And then third, you could do a very deep dive on what your competition, and I use that word loosely, is doing. So hear me out on this, because I can almost hear you saying, what, why would I want to copy them? Well, you don't. What cruising the competition is good for is a big old reminder of how you're
06:26 - 07:01
Rochelle Moulton: different. Whether that's like the trainer at my gym who doesn't look like a traditional trainer, or whether it's much deeper than that. Here's a way to look at it. I'm willing to bet that your space has a few archetypes. There will be the sage, for example, someone who's deeply researched an aspect of your niche, and they're constantly updating the industry with their findings and their viewpoints, right? You know somebody like that. There is usually a warrior, right? The 1 who takes a contrarian position and dukes it out with everybody. We know those. The alchemist who seems
07:01 - 07:42
Rochelle Moulton: to midwife those deep transformations and is always looking for the magic. Artist who's constantly creating or making new things. Maybe there's an Avenger who's looking for justice and protects the underdog. That's the 1 railing on how the system doesn't work or is rigged. There's the storyteller who's gifted at metaphor and explaining meaning through stories. And the pioneer who's discovering and exploring new things. Your space might even have a gambler, the 1 who plays the odds and then convinces you to go along. And there's probably at least 1, judging by LinkedIn, probably way too many, playing the
07:42 - 08:19
Rochelle Moulton: hero, right? The 1 who swoops in and fixes it all. The advantage of thinking in archetypes as you look around you is that you realize that it's not about you. Not really. It's about how you best share your point of view about how you communicate lines up with your genius zone. Because the more you 0 in on that, the more likely you'll become unforgettable to your ideal clients and buyers. So looking at people you may see as intimidatingly ahead of you as just archetypes, take some of the sting out of it. Instead of saying, oh, I
08:19 - 08:54
Rochelle Moulton: can't talk about X because Jesse already is the authority, you might say, Jesse is acting the sage. He's been doing this forever, But I'm a pioneer here. I have some new ideas that could attract people just like me. And when you put it from that perspective, how could you not put your point of view out there? Plus, if you start seeing yourself through that pioneer lens, it will impact the kind of language you use, who you start aligning with, and how you develop your expertise as you grow. So, listen, here's the thought I want to leave
08:54 - 09:33
Rochelle Moulton: you with today. Your voice is valuable. It's 1 of a kind, and you have no idea how many people you might impact positively if you just use it for good. And in case you're wondering why I haven't said anything about monetizing your voice, I'll tell you. There is so much pressure, especially on newer soloists, to monetize your expertise. And of course, that's the ultimate goal. But if you're having trouble getting your voice out there, decouple it from making money. Make it about helping the people you care most about in ways that only you can. And go
09:33 - 09:50
Rochelle Moulton: get them. Now, as we wrap up this episode, if you haven't joined my email list yet, now is the time. Your soloist business and your future self will thank you. The link is in the show notes. That's it for this episode. Please join us next time for The Soloist Life. Bye-bye.
Have you ever considered moving yourself and your business to a new country? Content marketer Casey Kelly-Barton did just that and shares her challenges and opportunities as an ex-pat:
Her journey to niching into the intersection of three related niches— including how niching bumped up her revenue and reduced her hours worked.
Meeting the challenges to building a business while single-parenting after a divorce (and the most freeing thing she let go of).
Why she decided to move countries with her business—and how long she let the idea simmer first.
How she identified and evaluated target locations including the resources she tapped to explore the expat experience in advance.
The dividends from intensely focusing on that critical first year of transition.
LINKS
Casey Kelly-Barton Website | LinkedIn
Rochelle Moulton Email List | LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram
BIO
Casey Kelly-Barton provides content marketing and brand development for B2B companies in cybersecurity, fintech, and fraud prevention.
When she started her business, she was a newly single parent looking for ways to make the most of her writing and strategy skills.
Now, her business is well established with a roster of clients she enjoys working with, her kids are grown and she works from Portugal, where she moved in late 2023.
BOOK A STRATEGY CALL WITH ROCHELLE
RESOURCES FOR SOLOISTS
Join the Soloist email list: helping thousands of Soloist Consultants smash through their revenue plateau.
Soloist Events: in-person events for Soloists to gather, connect and learn.
The Authority Code: How to Position, Monetize and Sell Your Expertise: equal parts bible, blueprint and bushido. How to think like, become—and remain—an authority.
TRANSCRIPT
00:00 - 00:28
Casey Kelly-Barton: So I started researching and I was very methodical. I made a list of countries that met my criteria for like weather, time zones, languages, blah, blah, blah. And so I was looking at Latin America and Central America pretty carefully because I speak Spanish. My parents are still in Texas. It would be time zone friendly for my American clients. And then both my kids ended up in the EU.
00:32 - 01:11
Rochelle Moulton: Hello, hello. Welcome to the Soloist Life podcast where we're all about turning your expertise into wealth and impact. I'm Rochelle Moulton and today I'm joined by Soloist and new expat, Casey Kelly Barton. She provides content marketing and brand development for B2B companies in cybersecurity, fintech, and fraud prevention. When she started her business, she was a newly single parent looking for ways to make the most of her writing and strategy skills. Now her business is well established with a roster of clients she enjoys working with. Her kids are grown and she works from Portugal where she moved
01:11 - 01:32
Rochelle Moulton: from the US in late 2023. Casey, welcome. Hi, thank you for having me, Rochelle. I'm so glad to be here. I'm excited to talk to you today. Yeah, me too. So when we met and I heard that you were moving countries, I just knew you had to come on the show to talk about your experiences because for some people, that's living the dream.
01:33 - 01:39
Casey Kelly-Barton: Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. I do get a lot of questions about it. And so I'm happy to talk about that in detail.
01:39 - 01:47
Rochelle Moulton: Well, first off, let's go back to when you started your business. So what made you start the business? And when did you start?
01:48 - 02:27
Casey Kelly-Barton: I started the business, I was newly divorced and I had been doing some freelancing and some education off and on for years. And I thought, okay, now it's time to get serious about this, I was a strong writer, I had good writing and strategy skills, but I needed something that I could tailor to my own schedule and that wouldn't have me away from home 50, 60 hours a week. So I needed something that I could do independently. And at that point, I just started working my contacts and seeing who had freelance writing needs. And that was
02:27 - 02:51
Casey Kelly-Barton: the beginning of it. At the beginning, I did not have my niches. I was basically taking on any and all writing assignments for companies that needed it, like performance marketing, elder care, all kinds of things, just to build a portfolio, build some skills, and to really test and see if this particular path would work for me and my family. Well, obviously it did.
02:52 - 02:57
Rochelle Moulton: Do you remember how long it took you to get your first $100, 000 a year?
02:57 - 03:29
Casey Kelly-Barton: Oh, it took a while. I won't lie because, you know, my kids were young, 7 and 12 when I started this. And so it took me, I want to say, 6 or 7 years to get to that point. So it was not an overnight thing And part of that was because I didn't have the niche. It got to a point where I was just taking on, you know, the strategy that worked at the beginning of let's try everything and see if this works. Let's take on all the gigs you can find. Kind of that new freelancer.
03:30 - 04:06
Casey Kelly-Barton: I don't want to say panic, but definitely an eagerness to book work. When I started, I don't know if you're familiar with Carol Tice, but she used to run a freelancer, sort of an online forum or a clinic. And she said, you know, You need to niche and not just take everything that comes along because you're never going to move up your income if you are just a generalist and So I just started working on the things that really interested me which were fraud prevention cybersecurity fintech hadn't really exploded yet, but it did pretty soon after.
04:06 - 04:22
Casey Kelly-Barton: And it's related enough that I was able to capitalize on that. But it was really once I started to niche and develop some some expertise in specific fields that was hard for clients to find. That's when my income really took off.
04:22 - 04:51
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah, I think it's interesting with writers, especially, I think a lot of writers just have this mindset that it's about writing and just like it's the craft of writing and getting really good at that. And that's important, but it's how you apply the craft, which is where you make the money and where you can get paid more. And Carol Tice had it right about Nisha. So how long did it take you to 0 in on those 3?
04:53 - 05:24
Casey Kelly-Barton: Fraud prevention came first. And that came, I had a client who requested that I handle, it was an agency client, and I still work with them. I've worked with them for a decade. They, I want to say it was like 2014. So 3 years in, I had somebody come to me and say, we have this account, it's fraud prevention. We're having just a devil of a time finding writers who are A, interested enough to learn about this niche and B, willing to actually commit to it for a while and do the homework. And I was like,
05:24 - 05:53
Casey Kelly-Barton: I'll do it. And I found it was really, really interesting to me. And that's where I just started to invest in that. And because fraud prevention has kind of a natural overlap with cybersecurity, I was able to capitalize on that and then start moving into those other areas. And then when FinTech startup ecosystem really started to grow, Well, a lot of what they need is cybersecurity and fraud prevention to protect their data and protect their customers. So that was just a natural segue.
05:53 - 06:00
Rochelle Moulton: That's the tie because I had a different idea of FinTech in my head. So that makes sense then I see how the 3 are tied together.
06:00 - 06:08
Casey Kelly-Barton: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, and cyber security now is kind of ending up in everything because everything is connected. So yeah.
06:09 - 06:19
Rochelle Moulton: So do you think you'll niche down further into 1 of those 3? Or do you find that the combination really suits you?
06:19 - 06:57
Casey Kelly-Barton: I like the combination of them. And honestly, they're so interrelated that there was a spate of articles earlier this year about the cybersecurity convergence, which is basically the idea that everything needs to have cybersecurity built into it. Anything that's online has to be protected. Anything that handles money or data needs to also have fraud prevention. And a lot of it, if you're moving money and you're doing it online, there's going to be some sort of fintech aspect to it. So I kind of feel like the niche is niching itself down without me having to do anything
06:57 - 07:32
Casey Kelly-Barton: necessarily. Yeah. There's a little overlap with RegTech, like regulatory and compliance and insurance. So I could continue to niche into those areas, but I feel like there's enough going on in cybersecurity and fraud prevention, especially with the 4 horsemen of AI, enabling this sort of escalation of the spy versus spy, good guy versus bad guy strategies. I kind of feel like I'm good for now, but these niches touch on enough other areas that if I needed to switch or refine, I can.
07:32 - 07:42
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah, I was kind of visualizing a highway when you were describing it, because it feels like these things are all connected. It's like you've cornered the market on a piece of the highway.
07:42 - 07:54
Casey Kelly-Barton: Yeah, yeah. And yeah, I mean, there are plenty of other good cybersecurity and fraud prevention and fintech writers out there. I just make explicit the fact that I work at the intersection of these areas.
07:55 - 08:22
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah, that's a niche and it's how you build authority. So I want to switch over just for a moment and talk about single parenting because it is a topic that comes up more than you might expect, certainly in my Slack channel. But it's single parenting while you're building your business. So we definitely have some listeners that can relate. I mean, like, what was that like for you? What kind of challenges did you have to deal with for that?
08:22 - 08:54
Casey Kelly-Barton: It was hard. It was hard, I won't lie. It was super hard. And it was super hard, even though I had, their father was supportive. Like, you know, he paid his support. He was active in the kids' lives. So I wasn't without support the way some single parents are or newly divorced parents can be sometimes. So I had that. I also had a pretty strong social and professional network, But it was hard. It was hard helping my kids adjust to a new normal. It was hard learning all the things that I needed to learn as quickly
08:54 - 09:32
Casey Kelly-Barton: as I could so that I could start ramping up my business. Like I would fall asleep listening to podcasts. Like I would work, I would deal with the kids, I would fall asleep listening to podcasts, and there was about a year or 2 where I had literally no time for myself unless it was like the weekend when the kids were with their dad and I would do something really wild and self-indulgent like lay on the couch and watch a nature documentary for an hour You crazy fall asleep. I know So it was it was hard. Yeah
09:34 - 10:03
Casey Kelly-Barton: It was just my time was not my own, but I kept telling myself that if I invested this time and just went all in and went really hard up front, that I would be able to be in a better position and have more time and more options later on. Which safe to say that that happened. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was a gamble though, right? Anytime you're like, you know, you don't know that it's going to work out when you're in the thick of it. But I thought, well, you know, I got to do something. So
10:03 - 10:04
Casey Kelly-Barton: I'm going to commit to this.
10:05 - 10:31
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah. And I think a lot of times when we talk on this podcast, you know, we hear from people who've really been able to create a business where they have a lot of free time, what we don't always hear about is the messiness in the beginning. Yeah. If you're not sure, if you're experimenting. Some people start this knowing exactly what they want to do. Other people are following their nose to see what's going to work. So yeah, I appreciate you sharing the messy beginning.
10:31 - 10:59
Casey Kelly-Barton: Yeah, yeah. Oh, and it was messy. We were talking about this a little bit earlier in the green room, I guess. But there were a lot of things I just had to let go because my priorities were my children's wellbeing and my business. And so there was 1 6 month period, I had a friend who said, well, how are you doing all this? And I told her, I said, you know, I haven't cleaned my house in 6 months. And I was expecting as soon as it popped out of my mouth, I was like,
10:59 - 11:01
Rochelle Moulton: oh, no, judgment, judgment.
11:01 - 11:03
Casey Kelly-Barton: Yeah. Yeah. And she looked at me and
11:03 - 11:24
Rochelle Moulton: she said, oh, thank God. She said, I am so relieved to hear that I'm not the only 1. Yes. Well, if you look at Instagram, it looks like everybody has 47 children, works a million hours a week, and has a perfectly clean and well-organized home. So yeah, that's not reality for most of us.
11:24 - 11:48
Casey Kelly-Barton: It's not reality. And you know, the thing is, it's like having a clean house. I mean, I love a clean house. But at the time, there was no money for a cleaner. There was no time for me to do it and I thought You know, how is dusting all the corners gonna further my goals? It's not so I'm gonna put it on the back burner for now That dust will still be there when I get back to it and it was Good for you. I like that.
11:48 - 12:06
Rochelle Moulton: I like that. So I'm just really dying to talk about your expat experience. I know you know that. This idea of picking up and moving countries with your business. So first, what made you decide to move? Was this a big adventure? Was this like a very carefully calculated thing?
12:06 - 12:38
Casey Kelly-Barton: This was a project I had been working on since 2010. Well, even before that, I had always wanted to live abroad just for the experience of doing so. I was born and raised in Texas with the exception of 18 months when I lived in Atlanta. I've lived and worked in Texas all my life. And, you know, it's a big state with a lot going on, but it's also just 1 part of the world. And early on working on my business, I was working for an elder care, like information provider. And so I was doing a lot
12:38 - 13:11
Casey Kelly-Barton: of research on things like the cost of care when you get older, who pays for what? And looking at the numbers and looking at the trend lines, I thought there is no way that I can afford to grow old in the United States. And then once I got a divorce, I thought, well, I can kind of do what I want once the kids are grown. And so I started researching and I was very methodical. I made a list of countries that met my criteria for like weather, time zones, languages, blah, blah, blah. And so I was
13:11 - 13:46
Casey Kelly-Barton: looking at Latin America and Central America pretty carefully because I speak Spanish. My parents are still in Texas. It would be time zone friendly for my American clients, and then both my kids ended up in the EU. There goes that plan. And they were like, well, you should come over here. They said, but don't live in the same countries as us because that would be creepy and weird because Europe is so tiny, you know, that if I'm in the same country as them, I'll practically be looking into their living room window. So I thought about it
13:46 - 14:20
Casey Kelly-Barton: and I thought, well, let's try it. And so, yeah, but I spent about a decade researching and planning and making some little trips here and there when time and money allowed to check out different places. So, yeah, the fact that my kids ended up in the EU really kind of changed that calculation. And Portugal has a nice clear, I mean, I say this, even though Portugal right now, their immigration agency is going through some major logistical and technical challenges that weren't present when I applied. But of all the countries I looked at in the EU, they
14:20 - 14:34
Casey Kelly-Barton: were the ones that had the clearest immigration process, everything spelled out in detail, and the clearest path to a dual citizenship in several years, should I choose to pursue that?
14:35 - 14:43
Rochelle Moulton: So I'm curious because I love Portugal. I could totally see why someone would want to live there. Why not Spain if you spoke Spanish?
14:43 - 15:18
Casey Kelly-Barton: Right. I asked myself that a lot. I did look at Spain extensively, and this was before, you know, they just, I want to say at the end of last year, maybe it was right when I was almost done with my visa application process for Portugal, when Spain finally came through with their digital nomad visa. Before that, they only had something called a non-lucrative, which you were supposed to be retired. And depending on who you talk to, there either were or weren't restrictions on earning money from outside Spain. And like I talked to immigration attorneys in Spain,
15:18 - 15:48
Casey Kelly-Barton: I talked to different people. They said, well, it depends. It depends on your consulate. It depends on who is interpreting the rules. And I thought, well, I can't move for it depends. And Portugal's guidance was very clear. They had a visa that was in the category that fit my needs. And they were like, bring us this, this, this, and this. And, you know, it'll take a while because it's there's bureaucracy, just like everywhere. But, you know, do these things and this will be the outcome. And I was like, yeah, clarity. I like that.
15:48 - 16:09
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah. And I just Portugal, I've been all over Europe. And there...
Demand is feeling lighter—you’re getting fewer inquiries or buyers seem to be more price-sensitive and you’re starting to worry about the economy. What do you do next?
Why it doesn’t matter what the economy is doing when you play your own game.
How “Mariah” added a new revenue stream when her primary one started losing steam (and a low-risk way to experiment with pricing).
A tiny niching down test that can pay big dividends.
Why experimenting with tactics can sometimes uncover a profitable new direction.
When to consider offering group options including paid communities.
LINKS
Rochelle Moulton Email List | LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram
BOOK A STRATEGY CALL WITH ROCHELLE
RESOURCES FOR SOLOISTS
Join the Soloist email list: helping thousands of Soloist Consultants smash through their revenue plateau.
Soloist Events: in-person events for Soloists to gather and learn.
The Authority Code: How to Position, Monetize and Sell Your Expertise: equal parts bible, blueprint and bushido. How to think like, become—and remain—an authority.
TRANSCRIPT
Thinking about hosting a live event, but not sure how to make it well-attended, profitable and worth your time? Renowned author, speaker and creative firm advisor David C. Baker lifts the curtain on his wildly successful MYOB conference and live events:
The role of in-person live events in David’s expertise business model (plus a peek at the numbers for his four revenue streams).
How his pandemic pivot from in-person gatherings became a new lead generation source—and removed travel from his client engagements.
Why his conferences and events include multiple opportunities for attendees to engage with each other; he shares a few ideas you can borrow.
His philosophy on outside speakers: how he chooses, pays and manages them.
The one thing you must do if you want to make sure your conference doesn’t lose money.
LINKS
David C. Baker MYOB Conference | LinkedIn | Twitter
Rochelle Moulton Email List | LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram
BIO
David C. Baker is an author, speaker, and advisor to entrepreneurial creatives worldwide. He has written 6 books, advised 1,000+ firms, and keynoted conferences in 30+ countries.
His work has been discussed in the Wall Street Journal, Fast Company, Forbes, USA Today, BusinessWeek, CBS News, Newsweek, AdWeek, and Inc. Magazine. He lives in Nashville, TN.
His two most recent books can be found here and here. His work has also been featured in the NY Times, where he was recently referred to as “the expert’s expert”. He co-hosts the most listened to podcast in the creative services field (2Bobs).
BOOK A STRATEGY CALL WITH ROCHELLE
RESOURCES FOR SOLOISTS
Join the Soloist email list: helping thousands of Soloist Consultants smash through their revenue plateau.
Soloist Events: in-person events for Soloists to gather and learn.
The Authority Code: How to Position, Monetize and Sell Your Expertise: equal parts bible, blueprint and bushido. How to think like, become—and remain—an authority.
TRANSCRIPT
00:00 - 00:17
David C. Baker: You know, here's the easiest way to lose money with an event. When I learned this, my whole world changed about events. Do not sign up for room blocks because you're having to guarantee them. And then you have this pressure to sell and then you cheapen your brand by starting to beg people to come to these things and so on.
00:24 - 00:39
Rochelle Moulton: Hello hello. Welcome to the Soloist Life podcast where we're all about turning your expertise into wealth and impact. I'm Rochelle Moulton and today I am thrilled to welcome none other than the unforgettable David C. Baker. Yay!
00:40 - 00:46
David C. Baker: That's scary. There's lots of reasons to be unforgettable. I hope I'm on the good column of that, right?
00:46 - 01:29
Rochelle Moulton: Well, you are in my book. So, David is an author, speaker, and advisor to entrepreneurial creatives worldwide. He's written 6 books, advised 1, 000 plus firms and keynoted conferences in 30 plus countries. His work has been discussed in the Wall Street Journal, Fast Company, Forbes, USA Today, Business Week, CBS News, Newsweek, Adweek, and Ink Magazine. His 2 most recent books are The Business of Expertise, which is a classic. So if you haven't read it, go grab your copy now, and Secret Tradecraft of Elite Advisors. His work has also been featured in the New York Times, where
01:29 - 01:43
Rochelle Moulton: he was referred to as the expert. Finally, he co-hosts 2 Bobs, which is the most listened to podcast in the creative services field. And in addition to all those superlatives, he's a generous guy to boot. So David, welcome.
01:44 - 01:57
David C. Baker: Thank you. It's really great to connect with you again. We had you speak at 1 of our live events, which I guess is what we're talking about, and it's very popular, so it's really great to do this. I enjoyed seeing the invitation from you. It was great.
01:57 - 02:18
Rochelle Moulton: Awesome. I like it when people are happy to see my name in their inbox. So, you know, you just alluded to what I want to talk about because we literally have a treasure trove of things that we could talk about from your work that would help solo us. But I really like to focus in on your live in-person events because I don't know that you've ever really talked about how you use them in your business, or if you have, I haven't heard it.
02:18 - 02:46
David C. Baker: Yeah. So I've been doing this for 30 years now and I didn't have live events in the early days. I kind of learned about how to do them from somebody that was, he wasn't a real partner, but we did a lot of work together. And I don't know, I remember maybe 7 or 8 years into it, I decided to do them. And there's a bunch of reasons why I do them. 1 is it's an income stream. So I don't want to put all my eggs in 1 basket. So that's 1 reason I do it. Another is
02:46 - 03:20
David C. Baker: sort of Legion. So it's a way to sample the advice in a sense. And so I've never tracked it exactly, but a lot of people that eventually work with me in a consulting arrangement came to an event. And they tell me that they came to a particular event, I don't remember them, and they tell me that that's what encouraged them to work together. So that's the second reason. The third reason is because I just enjoy them. I really like them. I hate virtual events, and I think that's just me. I think it's like I just need
03:20 - 03:44
David C. Baker: to get over it probably, but I just like the in-person things. I like the drama of being in front of a group of people who can ask you any question at all. And then lately over the last decade I've realized, oh, this isn't really about what I or speakers I'm inviting or talking about. It's about them connecting with each other as well. So, anyway, those are the 3 big reasons why I'd like to do them.
03:45 - 03:52
Rochelle Moulton: You know, I just have to ask about that, because I've always felt like you're probably an introvert. Is that true?
03:52 - 03:56
David C. Baker: Oh yeah, I hate people just in general. Yeah.
03:57 - 04:15
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah. And the reason I want to point this out is because a lot of introverts are really exceptional on stage because they're so hyper-focused on the experience of the audience, and most introverts will not get on a stage without knowing absolutely everything they need to know to be up there.
04:15 - 04:28
David C. Baker: Ah, that's interesting, yeah. Yeah, I'd much prefer speaking in front of 5, 000 people for an hour with no preparation than talking with individuals after that presentation when I walk off the stage. Yeah.
04:28 - 04:31
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah, I call those situational extroverts.
04:31 - 04:35
David C. Baker: Yeah, right, right, where you're acting for a few minutes and then you're exhausted, right?
04:36 - 05:08
Rochelle Moulton: Exactly, exactly. So, you know, when I spoke at your NYOB conference in Atlanta, I felt like I really got a firsthand taste of what I feel is a deep community that you've built, and I started to say just from that 1 offering, but it may be from the other events you've had over the years. So maybe we could just dive in and talk about your business model. So you're not a soloist, but it's possible that many people listening might think of you that way because you've got this really high profile as an authority in the creative
05:08 - 05:16
Rochelle Moulton: space. But when you think about your business model, how do you make money in your business? I'm not asking how much, but how do you make it?
05:16 - 06:02
David C. Baker: Yeah. Oh, I don't mind answering all those questions. So, there's 2 of us full-time. The other 1 is actually my oldest son, Jonathan. And we bill about 1.7 on average a year. And we divide the income into big streams. So there's events, there's the book revenue, there's the M&A side, which he runs, and then there's my side, the advisory side. The book revenue is anywhere from 70 to 120 a year. Those are the royalties. The events are probably, I don't have the exact number, but probably around 400, something like that.
06:02 - 06:06
Rochelle Moulton: With presumably higher expenses than the other revenue streams.
06:06 - 06:35
David C. Baker: Yeah, right, exactly. Yeah, but a typical event where we have maybe 20 people, like we just did a pop-up event, which I just said, hey, listen, I think there's room for this. Let's just see if we can make it happen. It was last minute. We had 20 people. They each paid $3, 000, so that was $60, 000. Our expenses were, I think, $20, 000, so we would make $40, 000 on that. And then the rest of the money is split basically evenly between the M&A and the advisory side. So that's how the money comes in. So
06:35 - 07:07
David C. Baker: that's what I mean by revenue streams because like when things are slower on the business side, I just view that as okay I'm gonna work on the next book and and then when things are super super busy I just put it off. We're not super busy right now, but we tend to be very busy most of the time, but doing very different things. So maybe it swings to M&A or maybe it swings to, okay, business isn't good for these people, let's help them get new business in, or business is great for these people, let's help them
07:07 - 07:26
David C. Baker: manage growth. So that kind of helps even it out a little bit on the advisory side. But I really like, it's not just protection to have these income streams, it's also about lead generation. So the books are written, like they make money, yeah, but I want people to hire me. The events, they make money, but I want people to hire me
07:26 - 07:40
Rochelle Moulton: too. Yeah, I mean, I think that's what's so interesting to a lot of soloists that are early on in the journey because, you know, they don't necessarily think of books as a revenue stream, but as legion, they can be priceless if you're an authority or an expert's expert.
07:41 - 08:11
David C. Baker: Yeah, yeah, even if you don't make money, and the book doesn't sell, and it doesn't make you famous, a book is still worth writing because it forces you to spend a lot of time with the topic and you'll be able to speak so much more confidently about the topic and then if the book does happen to make money, that's great. The truth is most books don't make money. They really don't. I consider myself really fortunate that my books make money because I think it's unusual and you know what, let me add something. Maybe you were going
08:11 - 08:43
David C. Baker: to get to this later, but I'll pretend I'm the host here a second. But You know, none of this stuff works. None of these income streams work unless you have a central connection with your audience. And in my case, that's a newsletter subscription list. It's free. It comes out weekly. But that is the only way I get people to listen to the podcast or to buy a book or to come to an event. It's having tens of thousands of people, in my case it's it's 14, 000 so it's like it's 10, 000 plus half a 10,
08:43 - 08:57
David C. Baker: 000. People who get this weekly email, that is the lifeblood of my business. And I couldn't do any of these things unless I had that, right? You can't do an event unless you have people who already know of you and think of you well enough.
08:57 - 09:33
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah, I mean, it's hard enough to get, for some people to get somebody to buy a $20 book, but to shell out $1, 000, $2, 000, $3, 000. Yeah, you've got to have a lot more built-in trust. So what's interesting, so the events are a decent percentage revenue-wise of your total revenue, probably quite expensive on some level, especially the big 1. But, so what happened when we had the pandemic years, because it wasn't really just 1 year, because I'm thinking your speaking would have dropped off, of course, as it all did, and you couldn't do live
09:33 - 09:40
Rochelle Moulton: events. Did you pivot at all, or did you just find the other parts of your business picked up, or was that when you were working on the last book?
09:41 - 10:08
David C. Baker: Yeah. So I did some speaking still, but it was all virtual, and I hated every minute of it, but I still did some of that. I needed to do it for, well, I had a lot of time and it helped just to keep the brand out there, so to speak. And all the live events stopped as you anticipate. I had written a book and it was all ready to go. It was a secret trade craft book, but I didn't feel like it was the right time to release it. So it just sat there for a couple
10:08 - 10:46
David C. Baker: of years. What I did was, well, after panicking for 6 weeks, is just do tons of free webinars to help the industry. I had the time, I like, I need a platform, I need people in an audience, I need to force myself to think through things. And I wanted to help the marketplace. And so I did that. I think I did 11 webinars, and there were more than 1, 000 people at many of them. I didn't realize at the time that that was my alternative lead generation plan. It really surprised me completely, but so many people
10:46 - 11:19
David C. Baker: came back and worked with me afterwards, and the books were still selling really well, that it was fine. Like, I think I dropped 30% that year, but it was fine. So, I just pivoted. But what really changed had nothing to do with events. It was about the advisory side, because I was traveling to a different country every week doing an in-person consultation and that stopped. And I thought, well, maybe this is the end, you know? I didn't know. This is when we're still wiping off UPS packages, for God's sake. We really had no idea what was
11:19 - 11:34
David C. Baker: going on, right? And I decided to reinvent the whole process and make it virtual. And the marketplace responded really well. In fact, it's, so I don't travel at all anymore for consulting, I do for speaking, but not for consulting.
11:34 - 11:37
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah, it makes a huge difference being off a plane.
11:37 - 11:48
David C. Baker: Oh, I feel so much healthier too. It's like, you know, when you're on a plane or if you have little kids around, it's like you're licking a Petri dish all day. And now I feel so much healthier too without traveling.
11:49 - 11:54
Rochelle Moulton: Yes. When I got off that treadmill, my life changed pretty much overnight.
11:54 - 11:55
David C. Baker: Yeah.
11:55 - 12:07
Rochelle Moulton: So, David, like logistically, how do you handle doing multiple live events? Like I was looking at your schedule in 2024, and it looks like you did 1 live event a month from February through April,
12:07 - 12:07
David C. Baker: and
12:07 - 12:15
Rochelle Moulton: you mentioned the pop-up. And then, of course, you've got your big multi-day MYOB event in October. Like, how do you juggle all that?
12:15 - 12:45
David C. Baker: Yeah, and we just today went live with an M&A event, succession valuation event in December. So I had a partner in doing MYOB, that's our big event, that stands for Mind Your Own Business. We had hundreds and hundreds of people come every year. And My partner did all the logistics for that. And then they went away, they were purchased, and so the event just stopped. And I decided to do something else, and I did it with Blair. It was called the New Business Summit. We would have about 120 to 150 people at each event. And that
12:45 - 13:20
David C. Baker: was pretty easy to do, partly because of how I think about events. They're much easier to organize. Now, my son, we hold the events at the brewery that he's a partner of, so that makes it a little bit easier. And then we actually hire an event planner who does this in the background. We pay her thousands of dollars to do this. And it's very smooth, actually. And we kind of learn from each 1. So we have extensive surveying afterward, like what worked, what didn't work. Like a couple years ago, it was pretty clear that our food
13:20 - 13:49
David C. Baker: service wasn't as good, so we fixed that. Coffee service wasn't fast enough, we fixed that. And then we pay lots of attention to what the attendees want. In fact, at some point, I want to talk about the whole speaker selection thing. But that's how we do it. Now, if Jonathan wasn't there to manage these things, because all I do is I do the programming. So I invite all the speakers, and I sort of filter all that. He does all the rest. If he weren't on scene, then I would go back to doing some smaller events. And
13:49 - 13:56
David C. Baker: for those, I would just do 30, 40 people at a time. And I can explain more detail how that works, but it wasn't complicated at all.
13:57 - 14:14
Rochelle Moulton: Well, it's interesting because, you know, it was there last year and Jonathan was like the guy with 47 hands. He literally was constantly in motion. And that also explains, so a lot of the helpers, the kind of worker bees who were fabulous, so those were all your event planner people.
14:14 - 14:46
David C. Baker: We had 1 event planner. It was a lady that was sitting at the table, the younger woman, and then we had 4 other people who were motorcycle riding friends, neighborhood friends, none of them are professional in this space. They're just good people with great attitudes. They're just people we hired, Eddie and Christine and so....
How can you work less and make more than you are right now? There is a glide path if you’re willing to experiment insists Jonathan Stark, author of Hourly Billing Is Nuts. Yes, the dynamic Business of Authority duo is baaaaaaaaack for an episode:
Two experiments to try if you’re currently billing by the hour and want to explore alternatives.
How to start thinking about value vs. time, especially when you hit the maximum number of hours you are able—or want—to work.
What options to consider to ratchet up your revenue past the low 6 figures—and how to think about the audience or transformations you’ll need to deliver to get there.
Why being a “ruthless” minimalist can keep your business easy to run and avoid time sucks.
Exploring—and testing—ways to use AI right now in your expertise business.
LINKS
Jonathan Stark Website | LinkedIn
Rochelle Moulton Email List | LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram
BIO
Jonathan Stark is a former software developer who is on a mission to rid the world of hourly billing. He is the author of Hourly Billing Is Nuts, the host of Ditching Hourly, and writes a daily newsletter on pricing for independent professionals.
BOOK A STRATEGY CALL WITH ROCHELLE
RESOURCES FOR SOLOISTS
Join the Soloist email list: helping thousands of Soloist Consultants smash through their revenue plateau.
Soloist Events: in-person events for Soloists to gather and learn.
The Soloist Women community: a place to connect with like-minded women (and join a channel dedicated to your revenue level).
The Authority Code: How to Position, Monetize and Sell Your Expertise: equal parts bible, blueprint and bushido. How to think like, become—and remain—an authority.
TRANSCRIPT
00:00 - 00:29
Jonathan Stark: As you're growing your audience and you've got just more people aware of what you're doing, you can deliver smaller bits of value at a lower price, but a way lower cost. If you've got enough of an audience, then that completely support you. The classic example is like if you have a bestselling book. So if somebody goes to Amazon, they buy the book, they read the book, you're not involved. The author doesn't even know about you. And if you sell enough of them, if the audience is big enough, you can live like a king off of that.
00:29 - 00:37
Jonathan Stark: It's a great example of the kind of thing where you're delivering a little bit of value for 20 bucks to 10 million people and it's like, oh, that's pretty cool
00:42 - 00:55
Rochelle Moulton: Hello hello Welcome to this soloist life podcast where we're all about turning your expertise into wealth and impact. I'm Rochelle Moulton, and today we have a special surprise guest, my buddy Jonathan Stark.
00:56 - 00:58
Jonathan Stark: Hello. It's great to be back.
00:59 - 01:02
Rochelle Moulton: Awesome. And I'm in charge of the controls, which is like super fun.
01:02 - 01:02
Jonathan Stark: No
01:02 - 01:28
Rochelle Moulton: pressure. So, let me do an intro so people who don't know who you are will know. And Jonathan is a former software developer who's on a mission to rid the world of hourly billing. He is the author of Hourly Billing is Nuts, the host of Ditching Hourly, and writes a daily newsletter on pricing for independent professionals. He is also a former co-host with moi of the Business of Authority. So, Jonathan, welcome.
01:28 - 01:31
Jonathan Stark: Great to be here. Thanks for having me.
01:31 - 01:44
Rochelle Moulton: I just had somebody tell me yesterday and then somebody else this morning how much they missed TBOA and I had to bite my tongue not to tell them we were recording this episode today.
01:45 - 01:47
Jonathan Stark: Yeah, it's like smartless. You have to reveal
01:47 - 01:50
Rochelle Moulton: How fun to have the duo back in action, right?
01:50 - 01:53
Jonathan Stark: Yeah, yeah, it's great. It feels like riding a bike already. I know.
01:55 - 02:08
Rochelle Moulton: Well, listen, I wanted to have you on the show. You are actually the last guest of season 2 before we take a summer break. So we can talk about making more and working less, which is kind of your theme. And it seems kind of like a good summer topic.
02:09 - 02:13
Jonathan Stark: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Working way less and you're taking a break, which is smart.
02:13 - 02:26
Rochelle Moulton: Exactly. Well, so first, Catch us up on what you've been doing since we wrapped TBOA in April. Like, are you simmering on another podcast, working on new products? Like, what are you doing with all that extra time you have back?
02:26 - 03:02
Jonathan Stark: Yeah, I've been experimenting with lots of different things, purposely trying to keep myself busy and spending maximum time in my sort of genius zone doing fun stuff because it's sort of a response to 2023 which was kind of boring work wise. I had things really automated and I was subconsciously optimizing to work as little as possible. I got down too far and ended up spending most of my time doing stuff that I think at, which doesn't make me feel that great. So this year I was consciously planning to experiment with more fun stuff, get a little
03:02 - 03:17
Jonathan Stark: bit busier, but in that time, purposely spend doing things, a lot of writing, but also launching things and creating new offerings and all different stuff. So I have a lot of irons in the fire right now and it's been exactly as hoped and extremely fun.
03:18 - 03:23
Rochelle Moulton: Well, I saw you on LinkedIn and my eyes like bugged out of my head because I know you hated going there.
03:23 - 04:04
Jonathan Stark: Yeah, I've been anti-social media for probably 8 years. I've been basically off of social media. The only thing I did was syndicate my daily email posts on a dozen platforms, but I didn't engage. I didn't really do anything there, and I have the results to show for it, which I would get just no engagement whatsoever on any of those automated posts. I'd be like if I got 80 impressions on a LinkedIn post that was just like a title and a link to my blog, the blog version of my email list. So that wasn't doing anything. But
04:04 - 04:32
Jonathan Stark: so 1 of the things I did, it was after we decided to shutter TVA away. I was like, my mailing list has been hovering around 10,000 for a long time. Partially because I'm an aggressive pruner. I like to have my open rate around 50%, so I prune people that haven't been opening a lot. But it was more than that. I just felt like I was talking to the same group of people, which is great, but I wanted to get the message to rid the world of hourly billing. I want that mission to grow, So I wanted
04:32 - 05:04
Jonathan Stark: to get more people on the list. I had experimented with a bunch of different things like YouTube and other podcasts and guesting on other podcasts. I was like, I'm seeing people getting really good results on LinkedIn. It's the least offensive platform to me. And so I took it, I don't know how long it's been, maybe 2 months ago, I started to take it really seriously. I researched 2 or 3 different people that were having, you can see they have tons of followers, you can see they get tons of engagement. I'm like, well, if I believe that
05:04 - 05:37
Jonathan Stark: that translates into more people on the mailing list and more people joining me on the mission, if I believe that, then okay, let's just posit that that's true, that those are good leading indicators for my ultimate goal. How do I take this seriously and really do it right or at least effectively? And holy mackerel, it really works. When you actually engage with people, imagine social media be social. LinkedIn wants their users to behave a certain way and that's no surprise it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what they want. They want you engaging in
05:37 - 05:55
Jonathan Stark: sharing good content and attracting more people to their platform. They don't want you linking off of the platform. They want you engaging in other people's comments. So, you know, basically I spend maybe half an hour to 45 minutes, Monday through Friday, chatting with people who care about whatever I posted, which turns out to be pretty fun.
05:58 - 06:04
Rochelle Moulton: Have you seen it translate into email subscribers or is it too soon to tell? What do you think?
06:04 - 06:31
Jonathan Stark: It definitely has. So I didn't have any tracking on my website on the signup form prior to doing this experiment. So I don't have like web traffic numbers, but the idea is to transition people from who are meeting me for the first time on LinkedIn, transition them to the website where they can sign up for the mailing list. And my traffic from LinkedIn, I installed some tracking software. It actually, Paul Jarvis's application Fathom,
06:31 - 06:31
Rochelle Moulton: we had him
06:31 - 07:06
Jonathan Stark: on TVA years ago. And I can clearly see that my traffic from LinkedIn is increasing, not like dramatically, but it's definitely increasing. So we'll see, and my subscribers have started to climb again on my mailing list. So we'll see if it's worth the squeeze, so to speak. But it is pretty fun and it doesn't take that much time. So I'm writing the daily anyway, so it's it feels it's a little bit different writing for LinkedIn than for my list because it's for strangers and not preaching to the converted. Yeah, it's been fun as long as as
07:06 - 07:08
Jonathan Stark: long as it continues to stay fun. I'll keep doing it.
07:08 - 07:10
Rochelle Moulton: Look at you being social. I'm so proud.
07:13 - 07:19
Jonathan Stark: I've been meeting a lot of really good. I mean, we met on social media. I've been meeting a lot of really cool people. It's really cool.
07:19 - 07:30
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah, and I think LinkedIn has a lot of really cool people. It doesn't have as much of the sort of detrius that you see on some of the other ones for people in the expertise space.
07:30 - 07:32
Jonathan Stark: Yeah, we can leave those unnamed.
07:34 - 08:07
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah, we'll leave that 1 there. So let's talk about this whole idea of working less and making more. There's a lot of advice out there about this from myself included. So maybe we can start with how experts tend to evolve. So an expert of some sort like a software developer or a consultant goes out on their own and they start doing project work. They probably start by billing hourly. So if someone is in the spot right now early in their business evolution, what can they experiment with to increase their revenue without working more?
08:07 - 08:14
Jonathan Stark: I mean, the main thing is, assuming you're not going to hire, which is something that I've never going to do, I've sworn that off.
08:14 - 08:16
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah, let's assume they're solos. Yeah, exactly.
08:17 - 08:51
Jonathan Stark: Right. This is the show for that. So then you've only got so much inventory to sell. You've got however many hours a week you want to work and your hourly rate for your industry probably has a reasonable maximum that anybody would ever be willing to consider. And it's very easy for people who say, oh, you're a PHP developer and you're $300 an hour. Well, I can easily find a PHP developer that's $150 an hour or $50 an hour or $15 an hour. So it's a terrible way to position yourself in the marketplace because it makes it
08:51 - 09:21
Jonathan Stark: really easy for price buyers to put downward pressure on your fees. And at some point you run out of hours to sell and if you're not gonna hire, that's that. So what do you do instead? And the answer is you got to break the dependence on trading time for money and To experiment with that. I would probably start to offer usually it starts with a product I service because that's the easiest thing to get your head around if you're used to billing by the hour. And the easiest kind is just a paid consultation, some kind of
09:21 - 09:49
Jonathan Stark: paid call where someone can kind of pick your brain about your area of expertise. And you know, maybe it's got a, The trick with these is that it kind of seems like an hourly rate because in order to schedule it you have to put something in the calendar that's some duration. But it's really not tied to that. It's tied to the clarity that you can give them on the call. So maybe you schedule it for 45 minutes. The way I do it is I think right now they're 45 minutes, but I tell people to block out
09:49 - 10:16
Jonathan Stark: extra time after that because we could go long. So I kind of skew toward the short end of the appointment, but then I tell them to make sure you don't have something after it because we might really be jamming and want to keep going. So I make it clear that it's not really about the time. It's more about the outcome that they want, which is almost always clarity about what to do next in some situation that they're stuck in. So for a software developer, it could be something like, I don't know, somebody's got some outrageous Amazon
10:16 - 10:50
Jonathan Stark: Web Services bill, and you're really good at DevOps or doing something on cost control on AWS, or even just reading the dashboard. And you could have something like, for 500 bucks, you can share your screen, log into your account, and I'll go through your dashboard with you, explain how it works, explain what to look for, any potential opportunities for serious cost cutting. And if I can't give you some tips that will lower your bill by at least $500 a month, I'll give you your money back. So that's really not tied to the hour. That's more tied
10:50 - 11:11
Jonathan Stark: to the outcome and the clarity around how they could get that desirable outcome. So I'll probably start there. Productized service, just say, if you want to, I could go down maybe a few more examples of productized services that I'm aware of, but that's the basic concept where it's, you're packaging up your expertise and you're selling an outcome. It's not about the 45 minutes or however long it takes. It has nothing to do
11:11 - 11:26
Rochelle Moulton: with that. You just talk about 1 more. So pick 1 that's a little bit higher up the food chain, but not too high. Maybe, you know, like an assessment thing or some kind of a front end for something that you normally do a full Monte on.
11:26 - 12:02
Jonathan Stark: Good place to step up the next level from a kind of ad hoc consultation call would be some kind of a roadmap. And for software developers, that probably looks like a non-technical person who's got an idea for a SaaS or some kind of app, an iOS app. Could be anything, could be a website, got an idea for this thing, but they're non-technical and they don't even know if it's feasible. Like is this technology even, is there technology that exists that would even make this idea possible? And if so, how much would it cost? Like what would
12:02 - 12:38
Jonathan Stark: be involved? What would be the ongoing expenses? What would be the upfront expenses? And if you're attracting people who are like this, like I had 1 person who was focused on senior level salespeople from enterprise SaaS businesses who are constantly meeting with clients that are buying enterprise B2B software and identified, it wasn't uncommon for these types of people to identify gaps in the market that they kind of were like, well, maybe I'll just fill this gap but I don't know anything about software So they would call my guy and he would start them off with a
12:38 - 13:06
Jonathan Stark: blueprint and the promise was I'll get the idea out of your head down onto paper in a way that to determine the feasibility What the upfront costs would probably be what the ongoing costs would probably be a list of technologies that would probably be involved, how risky each 1 is or isn't. Then at the end of that, they would have something that they could bring to perhaps a lower cost developer or they could take it to investors to perhaps get angel round of funding to get it done, depending on if they needed the money or wanted
13:06 - 13:25
Jonathan Stark: to bootstrap. And then my guy would, you know, if they wanted to, then my guy would say, well, if you want me to build the MVP, I'm happy to do it, but I'll probably be the most expensive option. You should shop around if you want. And of course there was like, no, I'll go with you. That sounds great. Let me just get the money. So a roadmap is a natural next rung up in the product ladder for someone like that.
13:26 - 13:53
Rochelle Moulton: Oh, good. I think that gives people who are still in the early stages some ideas of what to do next. But then we have this sort of next category, and you and I, we've talked about this together so many times, but we know what happens when experts that are mostly billing directly for their time, and that can include retainers too, hit roughly 150,000 or so somewhere in that vicinity. Talk us through what happens and how they can peel themselves off when they hit that wall.
13:54 - 13:54
Jonathan Stark: Peel themselves off
13:54 - 13:56
Rochelle Moulton: the wall. I mean, that's what it
13:56 - 14:23
Jonathan Stark: feels like. You end up like 5, 10 years in, maybe you've got a couple of little kids now, and you realize you're working more than ever and you haven't increased your income in years, like 234 years and you're like, huh. You start to see like, you know, the wall starts to look like, wow, how am I ever going to work less? You know, all of a sudden you've got these other things you want to spend your time on during the day, and you're getting better and better at what you do. You're finishing it faster and faster
14:23 - 14:40
Jonathan Stark: at a higher level quality. Maybe you raise your rates, but it doesn't compensate, and you're just treading water. When you get to that point, that's when I get a lot of people who come to me and they're just desperate. They're like, I don't know what to do. There's no...
Is it possible to build a profitable expertise business that is 100% values-aligned and mission driven?
Lucy Flores—who has built a design studio dedicated to co-creating a more just, joyful and sustainable U.S. food system—says yes, with the results to prove it:
Why she niched her business into food equity right from the beginning—and how it played out.
How she thinks about and builds alliances, coalitions and partnerships (hint: she doesn’t have competitors).
Her approach—as an introvert—to investing in relationships and meeting new people in her field.
Why niching alone wasn’t enough—and what changed when she started marketing regularly.
Adopting a mindset of cautious optimism and deciding when it’s “safe to fail”.
LINKS
Lucy Flores Website | LinkedIn
Rochelle Moulton Email List | LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram
BIO
Lucy is the founder of Studio Magic Hour, a collaborative design studio working to advance equity in the food system, and a former Equitable Design Fellow at Hopelab.
She's partnered with organizations including the California Academy of Sciences, the Fair Food Network, Hopelab, The Nature Conservancy, Plant Futures, Share Our Strength, and the Southern Poverty Law Center to lead design and design research projects, facilitate workshops, and coach in-house design and innovation teams.
Previously, she helped launch FoodCorps, a national nonprofit dedicated to cultivating joy, health, and justice for kids through nutritious food, in partnership with schools and community. She is a member of the Design Justice Network, the Democracy & Belonging Forum at the Othering and Belonging Institute, Equity Army, and AIGA.
BOOK A STRATEGY CALL WITH ROCHELLE
RESOURCES FOR SOLOISTS
Join the Soloist email list: helping thousands of Soloist Consultants smash through their revenue plateau.
Soloist Events: in-person events for Soloists to gather and learn.
The Soloist Women community: a place to connect with like-minded women (and join a channel dedicated to your revenue level).
The Authority Code: How to Position, Monetize and Sell Your Expertise: equal parts bible, blueprint and bushido. How to think like, become—and remain—an authority.
TRANSCRIPT
00:00 - 00:25
Lucy Flores: Being open to learning, right? Lessons learned is a part of what we do. And I think if you go in with this perfectionist mindset, expecting that it either needs to work out or it was a total miss, like that's certainly not gonna serve the folks you're working with and it's not gonna serve you either. And having the mindset which is, yeah, certain things might not work out, but there's opportunity here to learn from that and move forward. That mindset can help overcome the hump of fear and then give you something to work with once you actually
00:25 - 00:31
Lucy Flores: try out that thing. [♪ music playing,
00:31 - 01:14
Rochelle Moulton: fades out. Hello, hello. Welcome to the Soloist Life podcast where we're all about turning your expertise into wealth and impact. I'm Rochelle Moulton and today I'm here with Lucy Flores, who's the founder of Studio Magic Hour, a collaborative design studio working to advance equity in the food system and a former equitable design fellow at Hope Lab. She's partnered with organizations including the California Academy of Sciences, the Fair Food Network, Hope Lab, the Nature Conservancy, Plant Futures, Share Our Strength, and the Southern Poverty Law Center to lead design and design research projects, facilitate workshops, and coach in-house
01:14 - 01:40
Rochelle Moulton: design and innovation teams. Previously, she helped launch FoodCorps, a national nonprofit dedicated to cultivating joy, health, and justice for kids through nutritious food in partnership with schools and community. She's a member of the Design Justice Network, the Democracy and Belonging Forum at the Othering and Belonging Institute, Equity Army, and AIGA. Lucy, welcome.
01:41 - 01:44
Lucy Flores: Thank you so much. I am so excited to be here today.
01:45 - 02:17
Rochelle Moulton: Well, I'm excited to talk to you, and I just loved reading off all of these affiliations and associations that you have. So before we get too deep, I do want to read 2 things from your LinkedIn profile, because I think it will help our listeners understand a bit more about the food system and your mission in particular. Yeah, that sounds great. Yeah, so first, I love this so much. People often say our food system is broken. In reality, it's working exactly as it was designed, benefiting some while failing to meet the needs of many more. The
02:17 - 02:55
Rochelle Moulton: good news, we can design a different future. And then second, I'm an equitable design strategist dedicated to helping designers and innovation leaders co-create a more just, joyful, and sustainable U.S. Food system. And I so appreciate that the word joy is part of your worldview. I mean, along with just and sustainable, these are all really important planks, I guess, of your system. So tell us a little bit more about, you know, how you've invested in your mission and values and how you see them dovetailing with your business.
02:56 - 03:29
Lucy Flores: For me, values aligned work is just something that I've always wanted to do and felt like I needed to do. You know, back when I was in school, studying and in college, I felt very drawn to social justice oriented work. And at the time was sort of feeling around in the ways in which I wanted to advance that work in some way, figuring out what are my interests and where are my passions and where do my skills lie, and all of those things. And ultimately for me, it comes down to doing work that I feel is
03:29 - 04:01
Lucy Flores: values aligned. So in this case, it's helping to advance equity in the food system and then doing it in a way that is values aligned. So it's not just the end goal, it's also the how, right? And I think for me, if that's not happening, it just feels out of sync with who I am and the way I want to be in the world. And so part of it's about the practice, right? It's how am I designing? How am I collaborating with others? How am I investing in the partnerships relationally and in a way that's very
04:01 - 04:25
Lucy Flores: care-based. And that all plays out in the work itself, but also in the business, right? So who I choose to partner with, the way in which I go about doing work, everything from who I've partnered with in the financial side of the business to collaborators I work with on design itself. So that's sort of like a Cliff's Notes version of it, but yeah, it's both the what we're doing in the work and also the how we're
04:25 - 04:39
Rochelle Moulton: doing it. Yeah, I like that because it would be easy to say, okay, I'm gonna do this design work and then I'm gonna make a bunch of money and then I'm going to plow it back to some of these organizations versus We are all in it together at every step along the way.
04:39 - 05:10
Lucy Flores: Yes, absolutely And it's something that you mentioned there I've been talking about with colleagues a lot recently which is that This is probably the case in any field and it's in design as well. And I think it's common among business owners and soloists, which is there can be this feeling of scarcity in our work, right? We can feel like there isn't enough work available, that there isn't sort of enough opportunity to go around, et cetera. And when I think you're doing values aligned work, it is easier to not see peers in the space as say competition,
05:10 - 05:39
Lucy Flores: but as partners looking to toward the same end goal. And when that happens, the relationships feel a little bit different. It feels like you're partnering with folks in the same field, again, working on the same trajectory towards the same goals. Anyway, just what you mentioned there reminded me of that. But it really feels like you're coming from a place of abundance when you are doing something together with others rather than your own thing in a shared space.
05:39 - 06:07
Rochelle Moulton: Well, you know, that just reminds me that came through in a comment that you made in the soloist women community and somebody was talking about, you know, the competition and how much do you share? And you said something along the lines of what you just said, which is, I look for opportunities to collaborate so that we can work towards this common goal. So I really admire how you've been able to put that through kind of every facet of your business because it's really part of you. It's your package. It's part of your genius.
06:08 - 06:39
Lucy Flores: Yeah, I appreciate that. I'll add. I will add. Not that I don't want to take credit for that, but I will also say that there are just so many, you know, I've worked in the food system for over a decade and in various parts of the food system, ranging from working in school food and school gardens and the agricultural connection to farm to school to the consumer side of the food system. In all areas of food, they're just really passionate, rad people who are excited about the work they're doing. Like genuinely, I've worked with folks who
06:39 - 07:01
Lucy Flores: range from soil scientists who just really want to talk to you about the work that they're doing and the impact that it's having and challenges that they're facing to, you know, folks who are working in, in food sales or distribution, who are really passionate about that work. And so it does help working in a space where people are excited to be there and excited to get to know others. And it's a supportive environment for that approach.
07:01 - 07:08
Rochelle Moulton: Yes, I hear you. So Lucy, 1 of the many reasons I wanted to have you on this show is that you started your business in
07:08 - 07:13
Lucy Flores: 2023, right? 2021. So a October around October.
07:13 - 07:38
Rochelle Moulton: Okay. I think it was probably we connected in 2023. Yes, that's right. It just felt like you just shot out of the gate from the very beginning. So how did you decide that you wanted to start your own business? I mean, because 1 could argue with all of these different collaborations that you could do equally good work from the inside. So how did you decide to start your business and then make it so mission driven?
07:38 - 08:11
Lucy Flores: Prior to launching the studio, I worked for a national nonprofit for over a decade. I was there a really long time. I was the first non-founding employee. So there were just a few of us in a very, very tiny budget. We started, and when I left, there were 70, 80, 90, some odd staff members and a $20 million budget. And we were working across the country. So I was there through a pretty significant period of growth, a lot of learning, a lot of learning. And I had an opportunity there to do work in-house, right? I was
08:11 - 08:43
Lucy Flores: on our innovation team and doing program design work, still collaborating both with folks in within the organization, as well as with folks at organizations around the country, like school districts and nonprofits and state agencies. So I did have that experience and love the organization. It's a really phenomenal organization called Food Corps. I always shout them out. They're doing really, really important work in food justice and food education and schools around the country. And I was also at a point where I really wanted to have more autonomy in making my own decisions. When you're part of a
08:43 - 09:12
Lucy Flores: big organization, especially a large nonprofit, there's a lot of discussion that goes into the decisions you make. There's a lot of influence that funders have, and it can sometimes be tricky to walk the talk, especially when it comes to equity work. And I had done a lot of learning and had some really phenomenal opportunities there. And I really wanted to be in a position where I could make some of those calls myself and not be swayed by other influencing factors and you know and if I made a mistake if I stepped in it like then I
09:12 - 09:41
Lucy Flores: would be accountable but I just wanted that chance to do it. So that's really sort of the primary reason. And I wanted to be able to work on projects in other parts of the food system. I did a lot of work in institutional food and school food systems. And I'm just energized by food work in other areas of food. And so those are the primary reasons. I will add though that I've always been very entrepreneurial. So this never felt like a nervous situation for me. Like when I got out of college, I was really lucky to
09:41 - 10:06
Lucy Flores: get a job and it was not a great experience for me. I will not go into the details, but I was there barely 6 months. I was living in New York City and I thought, you know what, I'm going to just become a freelancer and I'll cobble together some things. I think I'm just innately very optimistic when it comes to work, maybe not with all things in my mind, But when it comes to work and I just have always felt like, oh, I'll figure it out. There's a way to make it happen. So even though this
10:06 - 10:16
Lucy Flores: is my first time launching a design studio, I had some experience in the past figuring out how to operate a business just slightly on a larger scale now.
10:16 - 10:25
Rochelle Moulton: Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. Well, if it makes you feel any better, we all have a job like that. And it's usually like pretty early on and we're like, no, not gonna do that again.
10:25 - 10:27
Lucy Flores: Yeah, not working.
10:27 - 10:49
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah, I hear you. So let me just ask you the revenue question because I wanna talk more about what you've learned in running your business. How long did it take you to hit your first hundred thousand? Especially in a mission-driven business, I think our expectation is, oh yeah, we're not going to make a lot of money at this. It's a business, but we're not measuring profit. How long did it take?
10:49 - 11:15
Lucy Flores: I will give an answer and then I have a big asterisk next to it, which is I, it was in my first year. So, I was able to do it in my first year. The asterisk is that I was really well positioned going into it. There was a lot of luck and I had some privileges while I had been working in the food space for a decade, worked with a lot of organizations, had a really strong network going into the work, which I think made a huge difference for me, especially in such a niche. But The
11:15 - 11:45
Lucy Flores: other reason that I was really lucky is that I received a six-month fellowship in the first 2 months, essentially, that I had launched the studio. It's 1 of those fellowships that actually paid a living wage. Shout out to Hope Lab and also to every organization out there that's considering running fellowships, pay your people. It's really important. And there was an example of a place where I could, there was some stability in those first 6 months as I was getting things really off the ground. So I always want to add that there's some luck and privilege in
11:45 - 11:49
Lucy Flores: the mix when these things happen, but I was able to do it in my first year.
11:49 - 12:19
Rochelle Moulton: Well, there's always some luck and almost always some privilege in these things. And when we look backwards, we tend to forget that part. So I appreciate your calling it out. The other thing you said, I can't remember if You said the word in spite of or in addition to, but this niching idea, I feel like that's also a big part of your success because you didn't change fields when you left. You brought over relationships and you started with a very specific niche in mind. You knew who you were going to serve.
12:19 - 12:54
Lucy Flores: Yes, yes, that was always very clear from the very beginning because of interests. And there's some element of I'm picturing you can't see me right now. But I'm, you know, doing the tongue to the licking your finger to the wings thing here, like a gut feeling that I didn't have any hard evidence that there was going to be enough work. But I did hear from some people saying, like, oh, isn't that too niche? Isn't that too specific? How are you going to get enough work this way? And everybody eats, right? Ideally, everybody eats. And the system
12:54 - 13:12
Lucy Flores: is enormous. And there's so many opportunities to do this work and to partner on projects. So I just had a sense that it would be feasible, but I really needed to get out there and try. And I've certainly learned a lot along the way. Even the type of work that I do has shifted a little bit since I started, but it's been
13:12 - 13:44
Rochelle Moulton: a learning process. Well, and I just want to call this out for people listening who are deciding, you know, whether to niche, yes, and then how far to niche. And what's interesting about your experiment is it could have been too far. I mean, you didn't know when you started, but you make an educated guess because You know the field, you care about the field. It's intertwined with how you think of yourself, right? And your skills and talents. So, I mean, I just think that was a hugely impactful decision that you made early on. A lot of
13:44 - 13:48
Rochelle Moulton: people don't niche until year 2 or 3 or 5.
13:48 - 13:49
Lucy Flores: 0, interesting.
13:49 - 13:52
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah. Yeah, especially in the design space.
13:52 - 14:20
Lucy Flores: Mm-hmm, no, I can see that. I can see that. It's really helpful. I think it's, for me, it's something I feel passionate about. I do know people who have niched in an area just because it's kind of where they ended...
Everyone has difficulties in life—and sometimes our unique genius arises from how we deal with them. Take Psychotherapist Jeff Eamer who turned a challenging mental health diagnosis into a life of purpose:
How he moved from being an award-winning ad agency wonderkind to nabbing a 3-picture Hollywood deal.
Why crashing—hard—led him to get help with his mental health.
When saying yes to a $100K investment and six years of study and practice was exactly the right move.
The importance of building and maintaining routines and boundaries.
The signals that might mean it’s time to ask for help with your mental health.
LINKS
Jeff Eamer Website | LinkedIn | Desert Sun
Rochelle Moulton Email List | LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram
BIO
Jeff is an international award-winning advertising art director, copywriter and commercial film director. He had a brief stint in Hollywood as a screenwriter and producer on the film Coyote Ugly.
He has dedicated much of the last 25 years supporting the mental health community as a Suicide Prevention Counselor, Psychotherapist, and member of the Los Angeles Crisis Response Team.
He currently lives on his desert ranch with his two dogs: Koda, a 14-year-old black Lab and Ruby, a 10-month old Border Collie. Along with 11 chickens: Scarlett, Mrs. T., Cathy, GPT6, Beatrice, Gypsy Rose, Betty White, Griswald, Honey and Seva.
BOOK A STRATEGY CALL WITH ROCHELLE
RESOURCES FOR SOLOISTS
Join the Soloist email list: helping thousands of Soloist Consultants smash through their revenue plateau.
Soloist Events: in-person events for Soloists to gather and learn.
The Soloist Women community: a place to connect with like-minded women (and join a channel dedicated to your revenue level).
The Authority Code: How to Position, Monetize and Sell Your Expertise: equal parts bible, blueprint and bushido. How to think like, become—and remain—an authority.
TRANSCRIPT
00:00 - 00:33
Jeff Eamer: I've been influenced profoundly by the symptoms of mental illness, and it created a phenomenon that created certain challenges that I could then relate to with my clients. So if I have a superpower in all of this, it's a greater sense of relatedness. And so when clients come spend time with me, I'm much more perhaps congruent or authentic and transparent than probably most therapists are. And so when clients come spend time with me, I'm much more perhaps congruent or authentic and transparent than probably most therapists are. Than probably most therapists are.
00:33 - 01:13
Rochelle Moulton: Hello, hello. Welcome to the Soloist Life podcast where we're all about turning your expertise into wealth and impact. I'm Rochelle Moulton and today I'm here with my pal, Jeff Eamer, who's an international award-winning advertising art director, copywriter and commercial film director. He had a brief stint in Hollywood as a screenwriter and producer on the film Coyote Ugly. He has dedicated much of the last 25 years supporting the mental health community as a suicide prevention counselor, psychotherapist, and member of the Los Angeles Crisis Response Team. He currently serves as a psychotherapist and lives on his desert ranch
01:13 - 01:27
Rochelle Moulton: with his 2 dogs, Koda, a 14-year-old black lab, and Ruby, a 10-month-old border collie, along with 11 cleverly named chickens who may be making a cameo appearance. Jeff, welcome.
01:28 - 01:31
Jeff Eamer: Thank you, Rachelle, and my chickens thank you, too.
01:32 - 02:06
Rochelle Moulton: All 11 of them. So, Jeff, we first met in LA maybe 15 years ago. And I only knew bits and pieces of your backstory, which was all about the ad world and the creative life of glitz and glamour that can be LA when you work in film. But in 2015, you had a major event in your life that completely changed how you work and how you live. And when you said you were willing to talk about this and your experience with mental health, I knew that we had to have this conversation because mental health, especially amongst
02:06 - 02:28
Rochelle Moulton: entrepreneurs, is so rarely discussed openly. So let's dive in. Why don't you set the scene for us? So it's 2015, you're in LA, you've been doing design work as a soloist, you know, for pay, along with your volunteer service with suicide prevention and crisis response. You're enjoying life. What happened?
02:29 - 03:09
Jeff Eamer: Okay, here we go. Well, we'll have to backtrack a little bit to 1995, which technically is when I dropped into the soloist mindset and self-employment. So, and we're gonna sort of take a trip through bipolar disorder so your audience can kind of get a sense of how I experienced it and some of the challenges were around that as I was at that point in the advertising world. So I had joined McCann Erickson in the early 80s and I spent about 15 years as an agency guy, as you mentioned. I bounced from major agency to major agency,
03:10 - 03:48
Jeff Eamer: McCann Erickson, as I mentioned, J. Walter Thompson, Young and Rueckham, all of the really big ones. And I ended up at Leo Burnett. Now through that 15 year period I had tremendous highs and tremendous lows and I referred to as states of bipolarity. The technical term is bipolar disorder and during that period in the what would be the manic states my creativity was truly remarkable. There was a problem with it, though, because at a certain point, it got out of control, in that my state of righteousness and state of arrogance and hubris kicked in. And I
03:48 - 04:26
Jeff Eamer: think I was terribly proud of in hindsight, but that's what was happening. So during that 15-year period, I lost jobs. I was self-employed through that entire period. I lost jobs for 1 of 2 reasons, because I was clinically depressed so bad that I could no longer work. And I was hospitalized and I was hospitalized 5 times for suicidal ideation and for in fact, suicide attempts. Sadly, I'm really shitty at killing myself. And the last time, I can make jokes of it. It's just crazy that world as a suicide prevention counselor, I talked to 3, 000 people
04:26 - 04:58
Jeff Eamer: and of course it's tragic, but life is tragically crazy sometimes too. So I would lose a job in the clinically depressed state. I'd also lose jobs in a manic state and I would be fired. And the last time that happened, I was working at Leo Burnett and as fate would have it, I was doing incredible work. I was doing the job that they asked me to do to create a better profile for the agency. And I was doing that. The problem was I was doing it in ways that the agency wasn't comfortable with. And they determined
04:58 - 05:10
Jeff Eamer: I was more of a liability than asset. And so they, you know, the creative director walked into my office 1 morning. I thought he had an envelope and I thought, you know, I'm either getting a raise or I'm getting fired.
05:10 - 05:11
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah, no in between.
05:11 - 05:41
Jeff Eamer: Yeah. And I knew when he was kind of shaking handing it to me, so I thought, ah, this is not going to be good. But again, in that state, it was like, well, I'll be fine. So as opposed to trying to get another job, this is when I kicked into being self-employed. And in fact, by definition, and your definition of soloist, so this is what took place. I thought, well, I got some money, so I'm going down to down to Florida. My brother lived down there and he had a big motorcycle and I think I paid
05:41 - 06:09
Jeff Eamer: him some money to buy it. I don't know if I actually technically bought it. And I went to West Palm Beach and I got on this motorcycle and I was riding to Key West. I was gonna go all the way down there. And I stopped in Miami at the News Cafe. And I'm sitting there and as I want to do, There was a pretty girl across the way, and we sort of locked eyes, and they said, would you like to join me? She said yes. And I sat with her, and she said, what do you do?
06:10 - 06:40
Jeff Eamer: And I said, well, and I thought for a moment, I said, I'm a director. And I wasn't a director. I hadn't directed anything at that point, but it sounded like a good answer, again, in that very state of which I believed anything. And she said, well, what are you working on? I said, well, I don't have any projects right now, but I think when I get back to Toronto there's going to be 1 waiting for me. So I said goodbye and I spent some time with her and then I thundered down to Key West and then
06:40 - 07:11
Jeff Eamer: I returned to Toronto. And because I was a writer I could actually freelance as a writer. So I went into this agency and they had this campaign it was for a back then a big record retailer it's called Sam's and and they had this giveaway there for every album you bought they they gave away a box of macaroni so I write this campaign about macaroni aid, which is sort of like far made. It was like a farce on that. And I said to the creative director, I said, look, you guys don't have enough money to do
07:11 - 07:44
Jeff Eamer: this, but I can get support from a production company and I can direct these. And he said, Well, you're right, we don't have the money to do it. So, you know, if a production company is willing to front this for you to get your real started, then sure, go ahead and direct them. And so began my career of being technically self-employed. That was directing this contract work. You work with the production agency, but technically I was self-employed. So that's how I began the process of going off on my own. And it certainly went from there.
07:45 - 08:05
Rochelle Moulton: With a lot of confidence, which makes me smile, because not all soloists start with confidence. Sometimes they have to like work up to it. But so, all right, so that was the start of your soloist career. So you're in LA, can we fast forward to 2015 or is there another event in there that we should we should talk about first?
08:05 - 08:44
Jeff Eamer: I think there's a few things along the way and so I was still in Toronto then and again sort of there's there's a line between confidence and and overconfidence perhaps And I would straddle that line when my moods would shift. And then of course there was like times when I had no confidence at all. And I don't lay my career or my life at the feet of my mental health diagnosis. I don't, I had other problems of not taking about accountability and not being responsible. And so it wasn't just that, that just made it worse. But
08:44 - 09:22
Jeff Eamer: what I found was interesting is that I could believe in something to such a degree that I could make it happen. You know, I don't want anyone to think I could win the lottery just because I think I bought the ticket, but especially in business and in business circumstances, I could actually envision something and move towards making it happen with no evidence that it should happen. But I had a vision, and as somebody who was self-employed, I could do a lot of different things. So I actually, this story started, I was in Los Angeles. I actually
09:22 - 09:54
Jeff Eamer: created a board game called Rumors, and that's a whole other story, but I was standing on the Venice Boardwalk at the bottom of Westminster. It right, I could take you to this spot right now, There is this giant peace sign that was painted on the ground. And I stood in the middle of that peace sign. Now, this is 1995. I was in Toronto, as I mentioned. I had no ability to work in the United States. I had no green card. I had no job. I had no access to do what I'm about to say. I was
09:54 - 10:33
Jeff Eamer: standing there and I said, 1 day, I'm going to live and work in Los Angeles and make movies with no possibility of doing that in that moment. But I had the vision that this was gonna happen. And fast forward to 1999, I go back to that spot and I'm standing there and I did it. I was in Los Angeles working on a major motion picture, living there. And do you know where I was living? I was living in the building in front of where I stood. I was living in the Westminster Hotel, the very spot that
10:33 - 11:05
Jeff Eamer: I said 5 years before that I would work and live. And not only was I working and living, I was living exactly where I was standing 5 years earlier. And I think What's interesting with that is vision. And a lot of times people think that they need, they need money to start something and they'll, they'll get stuck or they don't know enough how to do it. And so, well, I don't know how to do it and I don't have money. So I'm just going to give up before I started. And what I realized is you neither
11:05 - 11:41
Jeff Eamer: need money or the skill in that moment to do it. You just need to believe that you can do it. I remember my son once said, Dad, you've done a lot of really interesting things. How have you done this? I said, well, I'm stubborn and I'm naive. And sometimes those qualities are really great because you're stubborn, you're not gonna quit, and you're naive, you don't think you can't do it. And so you just start doing it. You take the first step and then you take the second step. But the vision of where you want to be
11:42 - 11:54
Jeff Eamer: is so important and to not so much worry about how you're going to get there. Sometimes the universe gives you a tremendous amount of support if you're clear about what it is that you want to do.
11:55 - 12:03
Rochelle Moulton: Clarity is such a critical part of this because it's hard to know what the next step is if you don't know where you want to wind up.
12:03 - 12:08
Jeff Eamer: Oh, and sometimes you step in a pile of shit, Rachelle. I mean, so you know, it's not like...
12:09 - 12:11
Rochelle Moulton: Oh, no, that never happens.
12:12 - 12:45
Jeff Eamer: It's not like all the steps are the right ones, But then you learn, you go, wow, better not step in that pile again. But that's that that's how you get there. And I think there's a lot of notion to, wow, there's so many stories about people who have failed multiple times. And every time they failed, I think it was Edison, I figured out 999 ways not to make a light bulb. You know, so that is the process of getting there. And when you're by yourself, it's really tough because you don't have somebody there that can say,
12:45 - 13:13
Jeff Eamer: that can bolster you, you don't have a partner, you don't have employees, and they're like, we're gonna do it, boss. You're on your own. And yes, you can surround yourself with people who are supportive. And eventually you have to bring a lot of people into your life, relative to that vision, in terms of making it happen. But I think, as I mentioned earlier, the mistake a lot of people make is they don't think they have the time or skill to actually complete it and said they don't even start.
13:14 - 13:35
Rochelle Moulton: Gotcha, gotcha. So I wanna bring you to 2015. So you did the movie thing, then you didn't do the movie thing, right? When I met you, you were art directing, basically, and writing. And so you did that for a number of years. And then 2015, talk to us, what happened?
13:35 - 14:07
Jeff Eamer: Yes, I was in the film business and then I was out of the film business. It was in Hollywood East stories to how that ended. Not how I would have imagined and again I have to bring in the mental illness piece. At that point, when I got to LA, I was critically depressed. A few months later, based on taking a medication that I wasn't aware was going to have the impact that it did, but it ricocheted me into a manic state. And so my film career took an incredible hit because of that time period, and I
14:07 - 14:37
Jeff Eamer: never went on to make what were the next 2 pictures. I had a three-picture deal. And so from that point, I was in Los Angeles with nothing to do. When you apply for a green card, you can't leave the country because they won't let you back in until there's a determination as to whether or not you're gonna get it or not. So I'm like, what am I gonna do? Well, the first thing I did was I volunteered. I was flipping through a newspaper back when there were newspapers, and there was an ad for a suicide prevention
14:37 - 15:10
Jeff Eamer: counselor, volunteers. And so I went there and I talked to the director, and I said, hey, I don't know much about being a counselor, but I know a lot about being suicidal. And he asked me a bunch of questions. He said, yep, you qualify. So I spent 4 years there. 1 as a volunteer, the next 3 as a supervisor. But during that time, I wasn't making much money doing that. So during that time, I technically was continued to be a soloist. So I was working on design projects, and that's how I actually met you, Rochelle. And
15:10 - 15:50
Jeff Eamer: I think that wasn't 2015. That was a few years before that. But during that time period, I just dropped back into being self-employed and just working on my own. I had a lot of freedom to do a lot of different kinds of projects. I did design projects, I did some writing projects. I was still writing in the entertainment world, but not all that much, just some projects that got optioned. And so that period from 2000 and basically 1 to 2015, I continued as being a very small soloist. I was just making enough money to live in
15:50 - 16:28
Jeff Eamer: Venice, to live in this tiny little bachelor apartment. I was gonna live in the dream, but at a certain point, my work wasn't very satisfying. I really didn't want to give it my all to working on design and branding projects. And I thought, well, I can't sell my...
What if the standard productivity advice gets it wrong? What if your performance, health and happiness are grounded in how well you manage your energy, not your time?
Jim Loehr and Tony Schwartz’s The Power of Full Engagement makes an excellent case for the role of energy in performance:
The four types of energy—physical, emotional, mental and spiritual—and how they interrelate.
How harnessing all energy sources allows us to optimize our productivity, happiness and engagement in the world around us.
Why life—and work—isn’t a marathon, but a series of sprints (and why you want to manage your energy like a sprinter).
How to get back on track when your energy sags.
The role of your purpose and the amount of energy you invest in yourself vs. others.
LINKS
Rochelle Moulton Email List | LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram
BOOK A STRATEGY CALL WITH ROCHELLE
RESOURCES FOR SOLOISTS
Join the Soloist email list: helping thousands of Soloist Consultants smash through their revenue plateau.
Soloist Events: in-person events for Soloists to gather and learn.
The Soloist Women community: a place to connect with like-minded women (and join a channel dedicated to your revenue level).
The Authority Code: How to Position, Monetize and Sell Your Expertise: equal parts bible, blueprint and bushido. How to think like, become—and remain—an authority.
TRANSCRIPT
00:00 - 00:47
Rochelle Moulton: We have to learn to adapt our system, our bodies, our emotions, our minds, and our spirits to be able to flex up to perform and then down to rest and rejuvenate. Hello, hello. Welcome to the Soloist Life podcast where we're all about turning your expertise into wealth and impact. I'm Rochelle Moulton and today I want to talk to you about managing energy instead of time. Now I started down this path when podcast guest, Joe Jacoby recommended the book, The Power of Full Engagement, Managing Energy, Not Time, is the key to High Performance and Personal Renewal by
00:47 - 01:27
Rochelle Moulton: Jim Lehrer and Tony Schwartz. I mean, when an Olympic gold medalist recommends a book on performance, you pay attention. So this came up because a few weeks back, I dedicated an episode to productivity for soloists. And I did that because a lot of us have internalized productivity as going 90 miles an hour to complete an endless to-do list versus carefully choosing what you want to pay attention to so you can Optimize your results. Optimize, not maximize. Well, this book, which I heartily recommend, by the way, is all about making sure you have the energy to tackle
01:27 - 02:06
Rochelle Moulton: what you decide is most important to you. You can't do everything you want, but you can manage your energy so you can do the things that matter most. Like the David Allen book, Getting Things Done, this is not a new book. It came out in 2003, But the principles are evergreen. And side note, if you're going to write an expertise book, this is how you do it. 20 years later, people are still talking about it and recommending it and buying it. So Let's start with this quote from the book. Every 1 of our thoughts, emotions, and
02:06 - 02:50
Rochelle Moulton: behaviors has an energy consequence for better or for worse, which means that your performance, health, and happiness, all critical to maintaining an optimal, soloist life, are grounded in how well you manage your energy. And they see 4 types of energy, physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual. And when we harness all of those energies is when we can truly optimize not just our productivity, but our happiness and our engagement with the world around us. Another thing that struck me here is that life isn't a marathon. In fact, it's a series of sprints, not unlike high-intensity interval training. We
02:50 - 03:32
Rochelle Moulton: just aren't wired to work, say, 8 hours straight at a desk and perform consistently well without taking recovery breaks. I should mention that before writing this book, the authors had spent 30 years working with world-class athletes in professional sports to design precisely what it takes to perform consistently at the highest levels under intense competitive pressures. Over 80 of the world's best tennis players, for example, went through their laboratory. The athletes were already gifted and accomplished, so the authors' focus was helping them to manage their energy more effectively to serve their mission. Eventually, they turned their attention
03:32 - 04:11
Rochelle Moulton: to executives, arguing that professional athletes had far shorter competitive careers than a typical executive or consultant. How people like us manage our energy defines the quality and the quantity of what we can achieve during the course of our careers and our lives. So can you see why I got so excited about this concept? The younger and healthier we are, the easier it is to just power through and keep working longer hours to get things done. But that only works for so long. And I'm not buying that those hours when you're exhausted were your most productive. We
04:11 - 04:58
Rochelle Moulton: have to learn to adapt our system, our bodies, our emotions, our minds, and our spirits to be able to flex up to perform and then down to rest and rejuvenate. Maximum performance is possible when our energy is pleasantly, positively high. We feel invigorated, confident, challenged, joyful, and connected. So how do we get more of that? All right, let's talk about physical energy first. I like their comparison of marathon runners to sprinters. If you think about it, the long distance runners usually look gaunt, a little shrunken, emotionally flat even, while the sprinters, and I'm picturing Usain Bolt
04:58 - 05:41
Rochelle Moulton: here, look powerful, bursting with energy and ready to push themselves against their limits. We want to become sprinters who can see the finish line clearly 100 or 200 meters down the track or set a different way. We must balance our energy expenditures with intermittent energy renewal. We have to learn how to rhythmically spend and renew energy, spend and renew. So how do we do that? By pushing beyond our normal limits, training in the same systemic ways that elite athletes do. The authors even argue that stress is not the enemy. In fact, it's the key to growth.
05:42 - 06:25
Rochelle Moulton: We systematically stress a muscle, expending more than normal energy, and then we give it a bit, 24 to 48 hours to recover, and it grows better able to handle the next stress. And we're not just talking physical muscles, we're talking about building muscles in every dimension of our lives, physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual. And the last piece of building energy is developing positive rituals, highly specific routines for managing energy, which are the key to sustained high performance. So just to recap so far, there are 4 essential principles to manage your energy. 1, draw on the 4
06:25 - 07:16
Rochelle Moulton: separate but related sources of energy, physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual. 2, balance energy expenditures with intermittent energy renewal. 3, push beyond your normal limits training systematically. And 4, build positive energy rituals. So where do you start? Well, with your physical body, because too much energy expended without sufficient recovery eventually leads to burnout and breakdown. And too much Recovery without sufficient stress leads to atrophy and weakness. So the key is to find the right balance for you. And you can read the book for suggestions and stories about exactly how to do that. But here's the thing. You
07:16 - 08:01
Rochelle Moulton: follow exactly the same process—physically, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually. Stress yourself just enough, recover just enough, and you'll grow. If you don't, you'll either burn out or atrophy, And neither 1 of those will lead to your best work or your best life. In fact, when we don't invest enough energy in all 4 dimensions, thinking we can just spend energy indefinitely, we can become flatliners. When we're in flow with all 4, we develop a rhythm, healthy patterns of activity and rest. Just last week, I was feeling out of sorts and realized I'd been giving my spiritual energy short
08:01 - 08:34
Rochelle Moulton: shrift. So I took a day off, I got in my car, and I headed for an area where I feel inspired, and then I spent most of the day taking photographs and just feeling the beauty around me. I went home feeling like a million bucks, and I slept like a baby. Now for you, it might be something completely different. Maybe you'll go listen to or play some music, have a deep conversation with a friend or a spiritual advisor, whatever that looks like. It's a muscle that needs attention, especially when you're busy or your mind is fully
08:34 - 09:11
Rochelle Moulton: occupied. We need breaks, intermittent rest periods to perform at our best. Now, I've worked with many clients who are embarrassed to admit that their energy falters during the day. It's like they think it's a personal failing that their energy has a valley. And the antidote is so simple, especially for soloists, because you have control over your workspace. Take a walk, do a few yoga poses, take a nap, generally a short 1 of about 40 minutes, according to a NASA study. During the war, Winston Churchill famously put his jammies on in the middle of the day and
09:11 - 09:51
Rochelle Moulton: went to bed for a sleep somewhere between lunch and dinner. And he swore it was the only way he could cope with his enormous responsibilities. Rest and recover, rest and recover. Now this book is definitely targeted at executives with way less flexibility than the average soloist. We are fortunate that we have so much control. But not all of us use that control. Some of us are still tied to that grind because it's our anchor. We think working hard all the time is required to be successful. But what if working too hard pushes us away from what
09:51 - 10:30
Rochelle Moulton: we want most as soloists? Plenty of revenue, free time, flexibility, and impact. I know it's paradoxical, but we need to find, not balance exactly, but stress and recovery, stress and recovery, in manageable increments over time. And my most perfect flow of that was probably when I was writing my first book. I decided I was going to finish it no matter what, and I committed to an aggressive writing schedule, 2 hours a day until I produced a first draft. I thought of it much like training for an event. I kept my workout routine intact, so I had
10:30 - 11:02
Rochelle Moulton: that way to bleed off the stress, the worry that maybe this wasn't going to work. And I committed to not going over the 2 hours. Now, I did slip up 1 day. I was just on fire, and I wrote for 4 hours, but I paid for it the next day. And I learned and I didn't do that again. I had planned easy to prepare nourishing foods. I told the hubby no fancy socializing, just time with good friends for emotional renewal. I was so in flow even when I got stressed about how to deal with, say, a
11:02 - 11:40
Rochelle Moulton: particular idea or a chapter, I'd stop after the 2 hours, go gaze at the mountains, get a good night's sleep, and wake up with the answer. And when it was all done, I had a first draft I was really proud of. Creating new things can absolutely be like that when you structure your life and commit yourself to a method that feeds all 4 of your energy sources. I encourage you to read this book, especially for the section on harnessing your mental energy. It is a masterful discussion of how to fuel your mental energy with preparation, visualization,
11:41 - 12:24
Rochelle Moulton: positive self-talk, effective time management, and creativity. They also ask about how you see your purpose. How much energy do you invest in yourself and how much in others? And how comfortable are you with the balance? How wisely and productively are you investing your energy? I know 1 thing to be true about this. When you find your personal formula to harness your energy and renew it effectively, you will literally be unstoppable. So on that note, I shall sign off. I hope you'll join us next time for The Soloist Life. Bye-bye.
When you’ve been on staff at an organization—especially in the lead role— transitioning to consulting can be a bit disorienting. Consultant to credit unions Mark Triechel talks about the lessons learned in his switch from regulating an industry to advising them:
How to quickly morph from “retirement” into a Soloist expertise business serving your former constituents.
Dealing with non-competes and ethics clauses honorably while building your new business.
Becoming a “Soloist with a twist”—why you don’t have to work alone.
How “changing teams” allows you to continue serving an existing niche in new (and profitable) ways.
Turning what could have become a pure compliance practice into a strategic advisory business.
LINKS
Mark Treichel Website | LinkedIn
Rochelle Moulton Email List | LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram
BIO
In 33 years at the federal agency known as the National Credit Union Administration, Mark led the agency as Executive Director after starting at the entry level. His varied positions at every level give him a unique perspective on all things NCUA.
He “changed teams” and is now in his fourth year of consulting with NCUA credit unions so they save time and money. He has two credit union educational podcasts: With Flying Colors and Credit Union Regulatory Guidance.
His clients consider his team as secret weapons in the regulatory battles they face every year.
BOOK A STRATEGY CALL WITH ROCHELLE
RESOURCES FOR SOLOISTS
Join the Soloist email list: helping thousands of Soloist Consultants smash through their revenue plateau.
Soloist Events: in-person events for Soloists to gather and learn.
The Soloist Women community: a place to connect with like-minded women (and join a channel dedicated to your revenue level).
The Authority Code: How to Position, Monetize and Sell Your Expertise: equal parts bible, blueprint and bushido. How to think like, become—and remain—an authority.
TRANSCRIPT
00:00 - 00:16
Mark Treichel: It's really important that your ideal client knows that you exist. And figuring out who the ideal client is 1 big piece. If they're not aware that I'm here, they're not going to know that they can hire me.
00:22 - 01:01
Rochelle Moulton: Hello, hello. Welcome to the Soloist Life podcast where we're all about turning your expertise into wealth and impact. I'm Rochelle Moulton and today I'm here with Mark Treichel. In 33 years at the federal agency known as the National Credit Union Administration, Mark led the agency as executive director after starting at the entry level. His varied positions at every level give him a unique perspective on all things NCUA. He changed teams and is now in his fourth year of consulting with NCUA credit unions so they save time and money. He has 2 credit union educational podcasts with
01:01 - 01:12
Rochelle Moulton: flying colors and credit union regulatory guidance. Mark's clients consider his team as secret weapons in the regulatory battles they face every year. Mark, welcome.
01:13 - 01:15
Mark Treichel: Thanks Rochelle. I'm excited to be here today.
01:15 - 01:33
Rochelle Moulton: Well, I have to say, Mark, when we first met, you were just getting your business off the ground and living in an RV, at least some of the time. I mean, I remember your Zoom backdrop quite well. So maybe you could tell us the story about how you came to start your consulting business?
01:34 - 02:12
Mark Treichel: Yeah, absolutely Rochelle. So yeah, when I retired, my wife and I had previously, just a few months before that, bought a Class B RV. And for the non-RVers, a class B is the van, right? So it's a van that's souped up to live in. It's a small footprint, but our goal was, I was planning to retire, use the RV to drive around, go to concerts and maybe dabble in consulting. So I made the announcement I was retiring in January, that I would be retiring in June, and that was right before COVID and the pandemic took off.
02:12 - 02:45
Mark Treichel: So you know my replacement was announced, I knew I was going to be leaving. And when we got to June, of course, the pandemic was still going on. And so we had the RV. We also have a lake place, which was the only sticks and bricks, as RVers call it. A sticks and bricks home was in the Adirondack Mountains. And so with COVID, we really couldn't RV that much. And so I started listening to podcasts, doing yard work. I was fortunate that I was kind of off in the mountains. So life seemed a little bit normal.
02:45 - 03:21
Mark Treichel: And I knew I was gonna have 1 or 2 clients because I had a couple people contact me before I retired. And what happened was I was listening to your podcast, another podcast, learning about doing a consulting business. And I relied on some advice from my dad who never consulted. And he worked for AT&T back when there was only 1 phone company. He worked at AT&T and he was part of when all the phone companies got distributed to Northwestern Bell, et cetera, Southern Bell. And he had opportunities to consult, but he never pursued them. And he
03:21 - 03:51
Mark Treichel: told me once later in life that he regretted that. And he said, if I want to do it, I need to do it relatively close to when I retire, because he said, people stopped calling. They called the first few months, they called the first year, and in the second year, people stopped calling. And so his name recognition and his expertise, he said no so many times, they thought, hey, he doesn't wanna do it. So essentially, I took 2 months off in the mountains, listened to podcasts, and learned a lot about how to stand up my business.
03:52 - 04:26
Mark Treichel: And I really kind of pivoted and said, I think I'm going to throw myself into this because there's nothing else to do really because of the pandemic. And essentially now I'm working full time. I don't consider myself retired. I've built the business into more than I ever anticipated. And then the interesting thing is we get to November, the Adirondack Mountains in November are not really a place you want to be. So we got in the RV, we headed to Florida and we lived in the RV for 6 straight months down in Florida going from state park
04:26 - 04:59
Mark Treichel: to state park. And that's essentially where and when I started the business. I dabbled in it a little bit before that, but we got on the road. I was doing training classes, listening to podcasts, hiring coaches, and then picking up an occasional client those first 6 months. So it was kind of born really, the beginning of the business was born there in the RV, which was an interesting way to start. It was a good conversation piece. Like you said, the background was kind of good for those conversations, but that's essentially how it started. And I really
04:59 - 05:07
Mark Treichel: think ironically, if not for the pandemic, I might not have thrown so much energy into it and I might not be having as much fun as I'm having today.
05:07 - 05:09
Rochelle Moulton: It's that divine timing.
05:09 - 05:10
Mark Treichel: Right, right.
05:10 - 05:19
Rochelle Moulton: Plus, I understand you're still happily married. So those 6 months in the van creating a business. Yes, Yes. Not everybody can survive that. That's awesome.
05:19 - 05:24
Mark Treichel: It's funny because we've had friends that say, wait, you know, if I did that with my spouse, we'd have to have 2 vans.
05:27 - 05:43
Rochelle Moulton: Exactly. Exactly. So I'm just curious. So what kinds of pressures did you feel starting your business? Because you had a long and pretty public career, right? Did you have, like, was there a non-compete? I don't know if the government does such a
05:43 - 06:20
Mark Treichel: thing. Yeah, great question. So there is a non-compete in ethics clauses that come into play. I could not be involved in anything that I had a direct hand in for 12 months, and then there was another rule for 24 months. The interesting thing was, while I was executive director, my team of executives actually took most of the direct actions. I was, as the executive director, you're kind of the conduit between a politically appointed board of directors and staff. And so I would be guiding my staff, communicating what the board wanted done, but the actual actions were
06:20 - 06:51
Mark Treichel: taken by somebody else. So ironically, while I was involved in everything, I didn't actually make decisions on a lot of things. And it's that decision piece that precludes you from certain things. So I could immediately take on clients because none of the actual credit unions that are around in the country, and there's like 5, 000 of them, none of them actually directly reported to me or did I take a specific action on. So it uniquely kind of positioned me to be able to hit the ground running. Now pressure wise, ironically, so when I was at NCUA
06:52 - 07:19
Mark Treichel: as an executive, the pressures I had there was working for a politically appointed board and which would change every couple of years there'd be a new person. So the politics of that created pressure and then managing the staff below me created pressures. But then leaving and retiring and actually maybe for the first time being able to speak from my own voice only was actually very freeing.
07:19 - 07:19
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah.
07:20 - 07:50
Mark Treichel: Because if you think about a political board with 3 board members, each 1 of them has their agenda. And then you have my direct reports. Each 1 of them have their responsibilities. And when I would go out to speech, my brain to speak, my brain would go through this process of, okay, these 3 board members each would want me to say it this way. My staff is expecting me to say it this way. So my brain would come up with, here's the way to say this publicly to serve all those audiences. Now that I don't have
07:50 - 08:27
Mark Treichel: to do that, I'm basically giving my opinion to my client. It's like the parting of the Red Sea for me because my opinion is my opinion, And I can help them by giving them what my truth is. And so essentially weren't pressures. And I guess the other piece is with where I'm at in my life, when I retired, I was 57 with a nice government pension. I didn't have financial pressures. So I was really kind of taking clay and forming it, and it was really a playground of what can I do, what systems can I learn,
08:27 - 08:33
Mark Treichel: what clients can I pick up, you know, how do I get my ideal clients? So it was really kind of like I was just having fun.
08:34 - 08:59
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah, well, and the other thing that's interesting is, you know, most of the people listening probably don't have a politically appointed board, but what a great sort of Petri dish to figure out how to deal with all different kinds of personalities and get things done. And so I feel like that freedom, that newfound freedom that you had afterwards, but you also had this knowledge of what it's like to deal with people with different agendas.
09:00 - 09:11
Mark Treichel: Boy, you're right. Yeah. And trying to come up with a way to serve all the parties turned out to be a very marketable skill when I left and in the niche that I chose to work with.
09:11 - 09:15
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah. So how long did it take you to hit your first hundred thousand?
09:16 - 09:20
Mark Treichel: I would say less than 6 months.
09:20 - 09:21
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah, that's fast.
09:22 - 09:57
Mark Treichel: It was quick. And the niche is very small. There are 4, 800 credit unions. And the reality is with the team that I put together and the services that I am now able to offer and that I actually was able to offer right out of the gate, there's really probably only 20% of them that I tend to cater to. So we're talking a small group of say a thousand potential clients, but they also have decent budgets. And if they're dealing with issues, particularly with my expertise and knowing the agency that regulates them, there's not a lot
09:57 - 10:04
Mark Treichel: of options other than me and my team right now. So I've, while it's a very small market, there's not a lot of competition.
10:05 - 10:25
Rochelle Moulton: Well, and a thousand targets is quite a lot when you're 1 guy. And we'll talk about, you know, your team in a minute. But the point I want to make here is you can make a very nice business and living, targeting a relatively small group of people if you've got the right story to tell and the right expertise.
10:25 - 10:27
Mark Treichel: Yeah, I would agree with that, absolutely.
10:27 - 10:42
Rochelle Moulton: So how did you look at your soloist earnings? Were they like sort of the cherry on the Sunday? Or did you feel like from a revenue standpoint like you had something to prove? I mean you said that you know you weren't worried about money, you had your pension, but I'm just curious how you thought about it.
10:42 - 11:15
Mark Treichel: That's a great question. I never thought about it as something to prove, but that's probably a little bit of what's going on because, again, 33 years as a government employee made a very good salary. It's an agency that pays well. However, working for the government is different than working in private practice. So it was really kind of an opportunity to say, okay, what can I do in the private sector? So I don't know if it's something to prove or let's just see what I can do. And the other thing is, I know you recently had an
11:15 - 11:29
Mark Treichel: episode with a financial planner, and I have a financial planner that I utilized on occasion. And 1 of the things he said to me, I love quotes, but he said this quote, it's better to give with a warm hand than a cold hand.
11:30 - 11:31
Rochelle Moulton: I'm thinking about that.
11:31 - 12:00
Mark Treichel: Meaning give early. And so I've got 2 daughters, I've got 2 granddaughters, a third granddaughter on the way and it's nice to be able to have extra money to go visit them, to have them come visit me, to assist them and see them have some of their pressures relieved, you know, early in life as opposed to, you know, hopefully 30 years down the road, you know, whatever's left in the state. This provides the opportunity to do a little bit more of that.
12:00 - 12:07
Rochelle Moulton: Do it now. And the audience doesn't know that you're recording from Cleveland, where you're visiting 1 of your daughters.
12:08 - 12:19
Mark Treichel: Exactly. Yes. And I think I might join the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame here because I'm going to be here for quite a bit this summer. So there's a good opportunity there to kind of tap into what Cleveland has.
12:20 - 12:54
Rochelle Moulton: That's awesome. So I want to kind of throw in something that I remember from our discussions, I don't know, 2 years, 3 years back. And I remember when you started targeting your universe of credit union people and You know you talked about how it's essentially a thousand people but can you just sort of give like a sort of a bird's-eye view of how you looked at this because I remember at the time feeling like you were being very thoughtful and smart about how you did this.
12:54 - 13:29
Mark Treichel: So 1 advantage that I have is that there's public data and information available for credit unions. So the 4, 800 credit unions have to file quarterly financial reports. The names of their CEOs are available. The names of their executives are available. And I knew some of those folks. So I really dove hard into LinkedIn. And see, I retired on June 30th and I did a post. I've got a picture of myself with the American flag that was taken when I was at NCAA on the 4th of July. I did this post about that I retired and
13:29 - 14:05
Mark Treichel: how much I missed credit unions, but that I would be doing a little bit of consulting. It was probably, actually ironically in my 5 years on LinkedIn, aggressively, it was probably my most liked post. So I really hit LinkedIn very hard relative to reaching out and making people aware of the fact that I was doing what I was doing, but trying to do it in a thoughtful way. 1 of my coaches early on suggested that, when I mentioned that I was connected with, at that time, maybe 800 CEOs on LinkedIn, he gave me some ideas on
14:05 - 14:39
Mark Treichel: how to capitalize that and get some emails. So I started down the email path and then listening to your podcasts, the concept about starting a podcast. So I learned early on that it was really going to be critically important for people to know that I existed. The part about who my ideal client was, which can be a challenge sometimes for I think for some people who are pivoting, That was easy for me because I had the list of the 4, 800 credit unions and then really the targeted list of the thousand credit unions of who those
14:39 - 14:45
Mark Treichel: clients were. So the important thing really became how do I make them know I'm doing what I'm doing?
14:45 - 14:50
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah. And so there's a lot of one-to-one kind of communications in that process.
14:51 - 15:25
Mark Treichel: Lots of one-to-one communications, you know, with email. Here's 4 or 5 different emails that I have as kind of a key to start off with that. But then when I'm posting on LinkedIn, that leads to a lot of conversations on LinkedIn. Really, that's where I have most of my conversations, that they either come from that direction or from somebody listening to the...
Can you build a six to seven figure Soloist business doing the opposite of what “the experts” recommend? Consultant Kris Jennings has created exactly that by forging her own path:
How her “tiny, tiny” email list delivered over $1 million in revenue (and provides a vehicle to nurture key referral relationships).
How she thinks about and serves her list (hint: it’s exactly the opposite of what most every email marketer recommends).
What she does with advice from experts and “gurus”.
How she measures success—and how her metrics have changed as her business matures.
The evolution of her risk-taking philosophy in business—and what elements must be present for her to say an unqualified “yes”.
LINKS
Kris Jennings Website | LinkedIn
Rochelle Moulton Email List | LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram
BIO
With nearly thirty years of experience, Kris Jennings’ work has helped more than a million people change. From large technology implementations to digital products for Type 2 diabetes, she designs ways to help people take small steps forward.
She has run a consulting and advisory business since 2012 and her clients include Fortune 100 global organizations. She now primarily supports change leaders and project teams. Her first book will be released this fall (2024).
She holds a bachelor's degree from The Medill School of Journalism at Northwestern University.
Kris and her husband live in Minneapolis, Minnesota with their two delightfully curious, mischievous kittens. She dedicates time each year to bucket list adventure travel with their two young adult sons.
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TRANSCRIPT
00:00 - 00:11
Kris Jennings: To me, it's not about selling something. It's about reaffirming the relationship that I have with those past clients, because they're gonna be the ones that are gonna refer me to other business. And I'm
00:11 - 00:16
: gonna be the 1 that's gonna refer me to other business. And I'm gonna be the 1 that's gonna refer me to other business. And I'm gonna be the 1 that's gonna refer me to other business.
00:16 - 00:56
Rochelle Moulton: Hello, hello. Welcome to the Soloist Life podcast where we're all about turning your expertise into wealth and impact. I'm Rochelle Moulton and today I'm here with consultant Chris Jennings, whose work has helped more than a million people change From large technology implementations to digital products for type 2 diabetes, she designs ways to help people take small steps forward. Chris has run a consulting and advisory business since 2012, and her clients include Fortune 100 global organizations. She now primarily supports change leaders and project teams and her first book will be released this fall. Chris, welcome.
00:56 - 00:58
Kris Jennings: Thanks, Rochelle, it's great to be here.
00:59 - 01:31
Rochelle Moulton: Well, we've had quite an exchange of ideas and conversation about growing a soloist business. In fact, you introduced me to earlier guest Heather Welpley a while back. But the initial spark was when you dropped just this very casual comment about your, and I quote, tiny, tiny email list generating over a million dollars in revenue for you so I'm kind of thinking we should start there but let's go back just a little bit so you started your firm in 2012. Tell us how that happened How did that
01:31 - 02:10
Kris Jennings: come about? So it's not the great story of like being excited and leaving the big organization to pursue my dream as a solo opener. It's actually quite the opposite. I was laid off. A very surprising layoff from an organization that had never done layoffs at the end of the recession, just coming out of that span from 2008 to 2012. So it was January of 2012 and got the layoff notice and within 2 weeks actually had a consulting gig. So it wasn't the route I was planning to take, but a friend nudged me towards trying it out.
02:11 - 02:19
Kris Jennings: And honestly that set me on the path to where I am today, which is 12 years later, having done some amazing projects with some amazing teams.
02:20 - 02:27
Rochelle Moulton: I love that turning lemons into lemonade. So how long did it take you to earn your first hundred thousand? Do you remember?
02:28 - 02:44
Kris Jennings: It was that first year. So I am 1 of those unusual people that my skill set is highly in demand and I have never had a break. So for 12 years, it's been go, go, go. And that's been financially rewarding.
02:44 - 03:06
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah. I'm hearing an undercurrent in there, which we'll get to. So you know I have to ask you more about your tiny, tiny list. I mean, it feels like there are lots of people in our space shouting that building a giant list is the way to go. But we know when you're in a high-end B2B consulting space, the metrics tend to look different. So, like, who's on your list?
03:06 - 03:37
Kris Jennings: I mean, how tiny is tiny? Tiny is under 100 people. I love that. Yeah, really, right? So stop and think about that. And I've been writing it for a year. So I've been diligently writing for about a year. So I was 11 years into my entrepreneurial journey before I really kind of did any kind of what I would say outreach or any kind of marketing. Literally, my business has been 100% referral based. So I've always gone from, you know, 1, if you will, friend to another, people who are behind the scenes saying, okay, we have the,
03:37 - 04:12
Kris Jennings: we're doing the same thing you guys did. Can you please recommend somebody? And that's how I've, I've really pieced together a magical career over the last 12 years as a solopreneur. So I started writing the newsletter every week because I'm a writer at heart. My background and my degree is in journalism and I love telling stories and I have ghostwritten for executives and it's still a big part of what I do in my work in change. But it was really about me and writing for me. And so the newsletter has become this thing of like, I
04:12 - 04:47
Kris Jennings: just really share it within the close circle of people who've worked with me and family and friends who are, who know I'm very passionate about change and it is a very safe space for me and actually all of us on the list to collaborate. So it's not the traditional email newsletter. It's the, hey, we're going to try and experiment this month. We're going to do some change experiments. I do whatever I want because I know that the people on the list are reading it. And I just looked at the open rate and prep for this. So
04:47 - 04:52
Kris Jennings: my open rate is hovers between 70 and 80%. This week it was 82%.
04:52 - 05:09
Rochelle Moulton: So anybody listening to that just had pangs of jealousy at that open rate. That's unusually high. But I also think the way you described it is really interesting. It feels like a collaborative space versus a one-way speaking space. Yeah. I mean, I think 1
05:09 - 05:43
Kris Jennings: of the things that kind of who I am is like, let me create something and play with it and see what happens. So with the list, it's like, I think the mainstream thinking on it is build your list, build your list, because then you're gonna sell something to everybody who's on your list. Mine's the opposite. I've already sold, as you said, I've already sold a million dollars worth of services to the people on that list. So to me, it's not about selling something, it's about reaffirming the relationship that I have with those past clients, because they're
05:43 - 06:09
Kris Jennings: going to be the ones that are going to refer me to other business. But just more so from this like, yeah, it doesn't have to be about monetizing the list. It can actually be the reverse, right? I've already done that. And now here's this place where we get to cultivate and strengthen the relationship that we've built through doing hard projects together. Well, and I like the spirit of generosity that kind of weaves through the
06:09 - 06:27
Rochelle Moulton: way you describe that, right? Like, I've helped you, you've helped me with the financial exchange, and let's continue to be able to grow together. You know, something that you said, and I was thinking about it, conversation we had 1 time about your book. So did you start writing for the list at the same time you started writing
06:27 - 07:01
Kris Jennings: your book? Like, did 1 make you do the other? Or how were they connected, or if at all? I started doing the newsletter first and it was probably 6 months in that I formally like started the book manuscript. There's definitely overlap and I think anybody who hasn't done a lot of, you know, marketing for themselves and they're in their solopreneur business, it's like, you know, a newsletter is a great place to get your thoughts on paper and say practice or have some content for something that you might do later, such as a book. So for me,
07:01 - 07:20
Kris Jennings: it's been also a way to get feedback, right? So I know the points that I've made in the newsletter and I know those content areas where it's like, wow, I had great feedback, you know, that prompted 2 or 3 comments, you know, back. And that's allowed me to kind of like, hey, I'm going to go deeper on that content in the book.
07:21 - 07:35
Rochelle Moulton: I love this. It's just counterintuitive. So what do you tell yourself when you get advice or you read advice from, you know, experts to do some kind of marketing gymnastics to grow your lists? Like what goes through your head?
07:35 - 08:07
Kris Jennings: I mean, 1 thing I've learned as a solopreneur is like, it's really hard not to do comparisonitis. It's really hard to say follow people and think, oh, I wanna learn from them, right? I wanna mimic what they're doing. But it is actually a moment of like, I'm going to learn what they're doing, and then I'm going to apply it to myself. I'm going to decide whether or not it works for me. Does this feel like it's right for who I am, my voice, my business, where I'm at and how I wanna grow my business, the types
08:07 - 08:38
Kris Jennings: of work I wanna do, who I wanna call in? There's a lot of shoulds out there in marketing and I definitely feel like you've gotta really have some blinders on in terms of learning, but then actually applying it to yourself and being willing to say, you know what? I like that idea, but it doesn't work quite right for me. And the only way to do that is to play. So I've given myself a lot of permission to fail, to try things and to not expect any wild success, but just to see what am I going to
08:38 - 08:39
Kris Jennings: learn from it.
08:39 - 09:10
Rochelle Moulton: I think we've all interacted with people who are doing whatever their latest guru has advised them to do. And, okay, this time I'm going to do this and it doesn't work, or this time I'm going to do that and it doesn't work. Not necessarily because it was a bad tactic, but because it didn't apply, or the person didn't take the time to figure out how to do what you said, which is adjust it for where you're going, for your style. And I think we can push ourselves out of our comfort zones. I think that's a good
09:10 - 09:46
Rochelle Moulton: thing. But we also want to take a decent bet, right? Something that we think is scary, but feels like something we would want. Like the outcome is something we would want and then we'll try it. But yeah, it is, it's a process. So I'm just curious, do you see or feel a downside with a small list? I mean, just as an example, it would be challenging to say, pivot from these huge consulting projects to something more retail, like $5, 000 workshops. So do you ever think about the size of the list and where you want to
09:46 - 09:47
Rochelle Moulton: take that in the future?
09:47 - 10:22
Kris Jennings: In the last couple of years, I think things have changed. I think the consumers, and I say consumers, meaning we're all consumers, right, of other people's content and purchasers of products, et cetera, I think we're more sophisticated and we're perhaps a little more cynical about the stuff that we get, including from email lists. So there's a variety of ways that we think about purchases, and that means anything from people seeing me on LinkedIn, people hearing me on this podcast, people picking up my book, people seeing it on Amazon, people getting a referral from it, somebody giving
10:22 - 10:50
Kris Jennings: my book to someone else. So there's a variety of ways that I think marketing can work. And I don't necessarily think that the lists as they once were used to be the end all be all. I think there's so much fragmentation and just in terms of marketing and what's being thrown at any of us at any given time, that it's like you can't rely on just 1. You've got to really think about the whole system and how you're getting your message out to your audience.
10:50 - 11:20
Rochelle Moulton: Yeah, well plus I also think your book, which we haven't talked about, is the kind of book where you don't have to sell a gazillion copies. You have the kind of book just like your list where you could sell 10 copies if they were to the right people, right? And I'm assuming your book is going to be pretty highly focused and targeted to your ideal audience. And so I just love the conventional wisdom would say, I'm going to sell a thousand copies in the first 2 days, and I've got to get to 10, 000 copies. And
11:20 - 11:34
Rochelle Moulton: when you have a business model like yours, that's not the metric that matters. I mean, it feels good. It would be nice to be on the New York Times bestseller list, but it isn't necessary to be able to serve the purpose that you wrote the book for.
11:35 - 12:09
Kris Jennings: Yeah, I think that's very, that's very astute in terms of like, why am I writing the book? And honestly, it was quite challenging in terms of working with the editor team that I did, because it was not really something they'd really ever considered, right? That I would have a very small audience, a very niche audience from my book. And that even how I would get it into the hands of the people who would use it would be extremely targeted in thinking about the intermediaries that are likely to be the repeat, if you will, distributors of my
12:09 - 12:34
Kris Jennings: books. So in my world, that looks like project managers, that looks like PMO offices, project management offices, sorry for the lingo, the jargon, or system implementers, right? Those people who are regularly doing large-scale projects and might not have a skillset like mine within a given project or within a given client team. So I've really strategically thought about how am I
12:34 - 13:08
Rochelle Moulton: going to partner with those folks to make sure that they have my book and that it becomes this business card that they're handing out on my behalf for at least several more years, at least until I write the next 1. Well, you bring up a great point, and I've seen this with some clients where their book was so targeted to a niche, and literally they could repay all of the time and money that they spent on their book with 1 single client, right, that came from that book. And a lot of editors, like they don't get
13:08 - 13:29
Rochelle Moulton: that. And in fact, they can try to edit your book for a larger market. And they just like, they can't help themselves because that's what they're used to. That's what everybody wants is to have a bigger market. So thank you for sharing that. It's something you really have to watch out for and it helps to find an editor who totally gets it. But sometimes it takes a round or 2. Yeah, and
13:29 - 13:36
Kris Jennings: it's definitely 1 of the reasons I self-published to be able to have that ultimate control over that creativity. Yeah.
13:36 - 13:55
Rochelle Moulton: So the theme I hear loud and clear from you, whenever we've chatted, is to forge your own path. So how do you measure your success? Are you using monthly, quarterly, annual metrics? What's your process to assess your progress with your business in your life?
13:56 - 14:31
Kris Jennings: Oh that's a great question. For me, if I had had answered that 12 years ago, it probably would be how do my financials look, right? And, you know, what do I have in the queue for the next quarter? And actually, most of my work goes much longer than that. So most of my projects are, you know, 12 to 18 months. So my time cycles, you know, are very, very, very long. And now I'm really thinking differently about what time of year is it? We're coming up on summer in Minnesota. Right. And So for me, I think,
14:31 - 15:06
Kris Jennings: wow, I want to make sure I have the least amount of stuff on my plate right now so that I can enjoy the short summer that we have here and I get to swim outside and I get to go to breakfast with my 22 year old, my youngest son who will be home from college for the summer. So for me, it's much more measures of life satisfaction and just where does the business fit into my life within a year? And giving myself a lot more flexibility with, you know, and if you will, ups and downs...
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