The Space In Between Podcast

What happens when data challenges something you deeply believe — something that has shaped your identity, your work, and your moral compass? In this episode of The Space In Between, Leigh sits down with Alice Shobe for a powerful conversation about feminism, boys and men, blind spots, and what it takes to expand our frame without abandoning our convictions.

Alice has spent her life pushing into spaces that were not designed for women and building pathways of opportunity for people too often left out. But when she read Richard Reeves’ Of Boys and Men, she found herself confronted by data she could not ignore: boys falling behind in education, men dying by suicide at alarming rates, and men drifting away from many of the caregiving and service professions society urgently needs. Rather than see this as a threat to her commitment to women’s equality, Alice began asking a harder question: what am I not seeing?

In this conversation, Leigh and Alice explore what it means to hold two truths at once: that women and girls still face real barriers to equality and opportunity, and that boys and men are also struggling in ways that deserve serious, compassionate, evidence-based attention. Alice shares how her own story — from being the only girl on an all-boys hockey team after Title IX, to growing up as a fraternal twin with a brother, to leading in corporate and nonprofit spaces — shaped her commitment to opportunity. She also reflects on what it was like to raise the topic of boys and men inside women-centered spaces, where the reaction was often mixed, protective, and deeply human.

Key Themes:

• Alice's op-ed for the Puget Sound Business Journal Leadership "Expert Confronts Blind Spot After Decades Championing Women's Opportunity"
• How new data can reveal blind spots without requiring us to abandon our values
• Why personal story can open conversations that data alone cannot
• What it means to be willing to be misunderstood in service of a larger truth
• How “yes, and” can help us stay curious in moments of discomfort or disagreement

1. Expanding the frame without abandoning conviction

2. What the data reveals about boys and men

3. The emotional complexity of being misunderstood

4. Practicing “yes, and” in a polarized world without giving ourselves away

We live in a time when many public conversations push us into either/or thinking: either you care about women or you care about men, either you stay loyal to your cause or you are betraying it. Alice’s story offers a different path. She reminds us that conviction can expand, that curiosity can strengthen rather than weaken our values, and that asking “what am I not seeing?” may be one of the most important leadership practices of our time.

Alice Shobe is a respected leader whose career has focused on expanding opportunity, strengthening communities, and addressing inequities across the corporate, nonprofit, housing, homelessness, philanthropy, and workforce development sectors. She has held senior leadership roles at Amazon and in the nonprofit sector, serves on the board of Jobs for the Future, and is a founding board member of the American Institute for Boys and Men. A longtime advocate for women’s equality and opportunity, Alice brings to this conversation a rare combination of moral clarity, humility, and curiosity.

There are conversations that do more than inform us, they recalibrate us. This episode with Sherri Mitchell (Weh’na Ha’mu Kwasset) is that kind of conversation: a profound, clear-eyed, and ultimately hopeful exploration of how we stay grounded as leaders and community members in an often dehumanizing time. Sherri calls us to cultivatie connection, accountability, deep humanity, and integrity with ourselves, one another and the living Earth we call home.

Sherri— Indigenous attorney, activist, wisdom keeper, teacher, and author of Sacred Instructions: Indigenous Wisdom for Living Spirit-Based Change — joins host Leigh Morgan for a powerful conversation about what it means to move through this moment without hardening, numbing out, or giving up. Together, Sherri and Leigh examine the deeper spiritual and relational crises underneath today’s political division, climate anxiety, violence, social fragmentation, and institutional collapse — while centering a more optimistic path forward rooted in interdependence, mutual care, accountability, and reconnection.

At the heart of this conversation is a powerful invitation: to move from separation toward interdependence. Sherri names the illusion of separation as one of the great spiritual wounds of our time — the belief that we are somehow separate from one another, from the Earth, and from the consequences of our choices. In its place, she offers a vision rooted in Indigenous wisdom: right relationship, emotional maturity, accountability, and reconnection with the living world.

This episode is not about bypassing the pain of this moment. It is about learning how to move through it with greater courage, humility, and responsibility. Sherri helps us understand that we are living through a painful transition — hospicing an old paternalistic paradigm while trying to midwife something more life-giving, collaborative, and humane. That transition requires grief. It requires accountability. And it requires us to grow up — individually, collectively, spiritually, and as a species.

In this episode, we explore:

• The spiritual work of reconnection — how the illusion of separation fuels division, dehumanization, ecological harm, and the loss of right relationship.
• The shift from independence to interdependence — why mutual care, shared responsibility, cooperation, and accountability are essential for a healthier future.
• Grief as part of transformation — what it means to hospice an old paradigm while midwifing something more humane, life-giving, and spiritually mature.
• The sacred leadership we need now — how humility, emotional maturity, accountability, maternal wisdom, and grounded connection can help us lead without hardening or numbing out.

About Sherri Mitchell

Sherri is a graduate of the University of Arizona’s Rogers College of Law, specializing in Indigenous Peoples Law and Policy. She is an alumna of the American Indian Ambassador Program and the Udall Native American Congressional Internship Program.. In addition to her book, Sacred Instructions, she is also a contributor to eleven anthologies, including the bestseller All We Can Save: Truth, Courage, and Solutions for the Climate Crisis, and Resetting Our Future: Empowering Climate Action in the United States. Sherri is also the founding Director of the Land Peace Foundation, an organization dedicated to the preservation of Indigenous rights and the protection of the Indigenous way of life. She serves as a Trustee for the American Indian Institute, as an Advisory Council member for Nia Tero’s Indigenous Land Guardianship Program, and as a board member for the Post Carbon Institute. Check out her website and order her book: https://www.sacredinstructions.

Check out Sherri's substack: https://substack.com/@sherrimitchellwehnahamukwasset

Check out the full show notes at http://spaceinbetweenpodcast.com/sacred-instructions-sherri-mitchell/

In a polarized world, it’s become easy to assume that the other side is broken, deficient, dangerous, or beyond repair; and if we are honest, sometimes it really feels this way. But if this is our dominant mindset, creativity, trust, accountability, and connection can be eclipsed by pessimism about what 'could be'. In this episode, host Leigh Morgan explores a different starting place which she calls the Three R's—Remember, Reframe, Reclaim — a novel framework for staying grounded, high agency, and deeply human in times marked by division, distrust, and uncertainty.

Drawing from personal reflection, leadership experience, and lessons from systems change work, Leigh examines how many of us have been conditioned into a “fix-it” orientation — constantly diagnosing what’s wrong in ourselves, our teams, institutions, and society. While problem-solving remains essential, Leigh asks whether polarized times require something more relational, expansive, and generative alongside it.

Through stories from leading in some of the world's most innovative organizations, Leigh explores how the Three R’s can operate at multiple levels — personally, relationally, organizationally, and systemically. The Three R's:

Remember. Resist reducing ourselves or others to stereotypes, failures, or political identities.

Reframe. Move beyond “What’s broken?” toward “What’s already working and what’s possible?”

Reclaim. Stay intentional and high agency instead of being pulled into reactivity, fear, and outrage.

This episode is not about abandoning accountability, or jettisoning problem solving approaches to hard challenges. It’s about exploring how we remain thoughtful, connected, and effective without losing ourselves to polarization. Key take aways include:

• Why a constant “fix-it” mindset can unintentionally deepen fear and defensiveness in low-trust environments
• The relational cost of reducing people to sides, stereotypes, and moral categories
• How leadership changes when we begin from capability and possibility instead of deficiency
• What asset-based community development teaches us about strengths, latent capacity, and systems change
• How trust-based philanthropy at Nia Tero flipped the script on traditional, 'respond to us' working practices
• Why reclaiming agency may be one of the most important leadership practices in polarized times
• How to stay politically engaged and accountable -- without mirroring the same harmful rhetoric we oppose -- can be achieved

A shift away from immediately reducing ourselves or others to deficiency, failure, or political identity — and toward remembering our humanity, capability, and creative abilities.

Moving beyond “What’s broken?” toward broader questions like:

• What’s already working?
• What strengths or capacities already exist?
• What possibilities become visible when fear and reactivity aren’t driving the frame?

Asserting, in moments where fear, outrage, or polarization tempts us to be reactive, our agency to make choices regardless of circumstance.

Reflection Questions

• Where am I operating primarily from deficiency or fear?
• What assumptions am I making about what — or who — is “broken”?
• What strengths, capacities, or possibilities might I be overlooking?
• What is actually mine to do in this moment?
• How do I stay engaged and accountable without losing my own center?

If this episode resonates with you, share it with someone you care about — someone you want to be in deeper conversation with.

And if you haven’t already, follow The Space In Between and leave a review.

Check out TSIB website at http://spaceinbetweenpodcast.com/remember-reframe-reclaim/

What does it look like to carry authority with humility? In this thoughtful and deeply human conversation, Leigh Morgan sits down with Bartow County, Georgia’s Chief Magistrate Judge Brandon Bryson — whose life and leadership have been shaped by family, faith, service, and a profound respect for the people who enter his courtroom. Presiding over cases that touch every corner of community life has given Judge Bryson a grounded understanding of how easily making assumptions (including about ideology) can mask nuanced realities. And, a how important it is to lead with both curiosity and humanity. Together, they explore how we can all hold people accountable without losing sight of their dignity, why listening can change what we think we know, and how everyday encounters can become opportunities for fairness, and connection. As Judge Bryson notes “compassion doesn’t remove accountability. It helps us make better decisions.”

In this episode, Leigh and Judge Bryson explore:

• How growing up in Cartersville shaped Brandon’s commitment to service
• The values his parents modeled through hard work, tenderness, and sacrifice
• Why magistrate court is often called “the people’s court”
• What eviction cases, warrants, and small claims reveal about everyday struggle
• The difference between judging a case and judging a person
• How compassion and accountability can exist in the same courtroom
• What he learned from the Presidential Leadership Scholars Program
• Why listening for someone’s “why” can open up a different kind of conversation

Why this conversation matters

So many people are moving through the world carrying fear, stress, shame, or uncertainty that others may never see.

Judge Bryson’s courtroom gives him a front-row seat to those realities. People come before him facing the possibility of losing housing, income, freedom, or stability — and he has learned that even a brief moment of respect can stay with someone for years.

Learn More About this Episode

Check out the full show notes at www.https://spaceinbetweenpodcast.com/justice-mercy-judge-bryson/

Pease leave a review and pass this along to a friend!

What if the spaces you move through every day are quietly shaping your mood, your relationships—and even your sense of agency and hope? In this episode, Leigh sits down with renowned designer Elizabeth MacPherson-Hearn to explore the powerful idea that there is no such thing as a neutral space. Together, they unpack how the environments we inhabit influence how grounded, connected, and open we feel—especially in a time marked by division and uncertainty.

Through the lens of biophilia, Elizabeth offers both a deeper understanding and practical ways to transform any space—home, office, or community—into a place that restores calm, dignity, and human connection. In a world where so many feel unmoored, anxious, or disconnected, this conversation brings us back to something both ancient and accessible: our relationship to place.

Elizabeth defines biophilia as our innate, cellular-level need to connect with nature—and explains how it shows up in three powerful ways:

• Direct connection (light, water, nature itself)
• Indirect connection (materials, patterns, textures inspired by nature)
• Spatial design (how spaces create safety, curiosity, and calm through elements like “prospect and refuge”)

Together, Leigh and Elizabeth explore how these principles aren’t just aesthetic—they’re deeply human. They influence our nervous systems, our ability to think clearly, and even our capacity to connect with one another. At a time when many of us spend 85–95% of our lives indoors, the question becomes: What if our spaces could actively support our wellbeing instead of depleting it?

Elizabeth shares stories from her work designing schools and public spaces—including how thoughtful design can transform how children learn, engage, and feel in their bodies. She also reflects on how even small choices—light, materials, patterns—can dramatically shift our experience of a space. Most importantly, this episode isn’t about perfect design or privilege. It’s about awareness and agency. Because as Elizabeth reminds us: When you walk into a space and it feels good—there’s a reason.

In This Episode, We Explore:

• Why there is no such thing as a neutral space
• The science and psychology behind biophilia
• How design impacts stress, focus, and emotional wellbeing
• The concept of “prospect and refuge”—and why you always want the booth
• How patterns in nature (like fractals) calm the brain
• Why modern life has disconnected us—and how to gently reconnect
• Practical ways to bring grounding, beauty, and calm into your everyday spaces

A Few Questions to Carry With You:

• What spaces in your life make you feel most like yourself?
• Where do you feel calm, open, or connected—and why?
• What small shift could you make to bring more light, texture, or nature into your day?

Why This Conversation Matters

At its core, this episode is about reclaiming a sense of agency in uncertain times. When the world feels loud, divided, or overwhelming, place becomes a quiet but powerful ally.

By tending to the spaces around us, we begin to steady ourselves within. And from that place—we’re better able to engage, connect, and lead with intention.

About Elizabeth MacPherson-Hearn

As a leader at the internationally acclaimed architecture firm Mithun, Elizabeth translates visionary thinking into grounded, human-centered spaces. She brings a keen awareness of sensory experience and how people move through daily life, seamlessly blending interior design with architecture to create environments that feel intuitive and connected from the moment you enter. Her deep knowledge of sustainable materials allows her to design spaces that create long-term value across both public and private sectors.

A strong listener with a background rooted in physiology, Elizabeth designs places that people don’t just use—but feel. Her work is guided by a deep understanding of biophilia—the innate, sensory connection between humans and the natural world—which she lectures on nationally.

In this timely episode of The Space In Between, host Leigh Morgan sits down with John Wood Jr. — a national leader in the American depolarization movement, former GOP candidate for Congress and an inspiring voice for principled bridge-building — to explore one of the most pressing tensions of our time: how to hold strong convictions without becoming self-righteous or contributing to deeper division. John's personal story as the son of a conservative, white southernor and a liberal, black mom from LA is a testament to how differences can mold character, insight, understanding, and acceptance.

At a moment when many of us feel morally awake — and highly motivated to ‘do good’ while also navigating a culture shaped by low trust, shifting of democratic norms, and polarization—this conversation asks some complicated and difficult questions:

• how do we pursue justice and accountability without reinforcing the very brokenness we are trying to address? and
• how can we embody love and do so at a time of so much unneeded suffering? 

This episode is a salve for the soul and offers practice insights on how to create a more perfect union at home, at work, and across the country.

Check out The Space In Between website for detailed show notes at https://spaceinbetweenpodcast.com/how-not-to-harden-in-hard-times-with-john-wood-jr/. And if you love the show - leave a review and pass this link along!

Anger is having a moment. You feel it. I feel it. 

Everyone seems to be carrying around a lit match… just waiting for something to burn. 

But here’s the uncomfortable question: What if the biggest problem isn’t anger itself… but how we’re using it? 

In this solo episode, I take on something most of us don’t want to admit:  That the same anger we believe is justified… can quietly turn into something else entirely. 

Something sharper. 

More self-righteous. 

More dehumanizing. 

And once it crosses that line, i starts feeding the very thing we say we’re against: injustice. 

I also wrestle with my own anger in real time—offering a raw, honest look at what it actually takes to navigate this tension when it’s deeply personal. 

Check out all the Space In Between website for detailed show notes at www.spaceinbetween.com. Please leave a review, share this episode and enjoy!

In this timely episode of The Space In Between, host Leigh Morgan sits down with Deb Roy, director of the MIT Center for Constructive Communication, to explore how the modern information ecosystem is reshaping democracy, trust, and our relationships with one another. At a time when misinformation, algorithmic amplification, and fragmented media environments are fueling polarization, Deb offers a powerful framework for understanding what he calls our information architecture—the invisible systems that determine what we see, what we believe, and how shared meaning either forms or breaks down.

But this conversation goes deeper than technology or media systems. It is ultimately about our humanness—the ways we see, hear, and relate to one another. Deb’s work reminds us that when information systems distort reality, they also weaken the relational fabric that allows diverse societies to function. As a world-leading researcher, Deb brings rigorous insight into how information systems shape civic life. Drawing on both modern research and what he calls “ancient wisdoms,” he reminds us that renewing democracy may begin with something profoundly simple: re-invigorating relational connection through listening, storytelling, and shared human experience.

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When Dr. Susan Blumenthal spearheaded a bold effort to move imaging technology from missiles to mammograms, she didn’t just advance innovation—she showed what’s possible when conviction meets creativity and unlikely coalitions.

In this conversation, Leigh sits down with the former U.S. Assistant Surgeon General and global public health leader to explore her decades of bipartisan service across both Democratic and Republican administrations, the deeply personal story that drew her into women’s health advocacy, and what it really takes to build progress across political and institutional divides.

Dr. Blumenthal makes a powerful case that women’s health and women’s empowerment are directly tied to the strength of families, communities, and nations. She also shares practical wisdom for staying grounded in your values when progress feels slow, misinformation spreads quickly, and polarization runs high.

This inspiring episode is about leadership in turbulent times, the courage to look around corners, staying persistent when the path ahead isn’t clear, and how storytelling and lived experience can help all of us build bridges—no matter our role.

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In this episode of The Space In Between, host Leigh Morgan and Dr. Vardit Ravitsky (President and CEO of The Hastings Center for Bioethics) explore what moral courage in practice actually looks like when the choices are thorny, the facts are contested, and the consequences are deeply human. Leigh and Dr. Ravitsky explore how bioethics helps us navigate today’s most charged issues—vaccines and public health, abortion and women’s lives, AI and genomics—without sliding into either performative “dialogue” or hardened certainty. You’ll hear why Dr. Ravitsky insists that “good ethics starts with good facts,” how her team designs inclusive conversations without legitimizing misinformation or dehumanization, and why trust-building relationships are the real engine of progress. If you’re hungry for grounded wisdom on how to stay humane, clear-eyed, and connected in unsettled times—this conversation will both steady you and challenge you.

Check out show notes at www.spaceinbetweenpodcast.com.  

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