This episode features Todd Hazen, Head of Technical Recruiting at Gusto, in a candid conversation about what it takes to move from non-tech recruiting into the world of technical hiring. Todd shares how he built credibility, developed deep connections, and learned to thrive in a space that demands both curiosity and humility. For talent professionals navigating transitions, this one is packed with lessons on leadership, learning, and trust.

Key Takeaways • Curiosity beats confidence when entering a new domain. Ask questions, even when you're in a leadership role. • Building trust with stakeholders comes from honesty and follow-through, not from having every answer on the spot. • The "bar" for great talent is always shifting. Calibration is an ongoing process, not a one-time intake. • Vulnerability accelerates growth. Owning what you don't know helps open doors to learning and partnership. • Growth and comfort never coexist. Real development happens when you lean into discomfort.

Timestamped Highlights 00:43 Todd explains how Gusto supports small businesses and why that mission matters. 03:36 How he navigated the move from non-technical to technical recruiting and what he learned from his team. 06:16 Finding the bar for technical talent and how calibration evolves with each hiring manager. 08:46 Why humility and curiosity are the fastest paths to growth. 12:43 How to handle tough stakeholder conversations when you don't have all the answers. 15:09 Taking career risks, betting on yourself, and embracing discomfort. 17:45 Defining the North Star and learning to master the craft before chasing the next title.

One to Remember "It's okay to be humbled and vulnerable. You don't have to know everything, but you do have to keep learning."

Pro Tips • Approach every intake meeting like a learning opportunity. • Build trust by following up fast—deliver before people have to ask. • Use data to frame conversations with hiring managers, not to replace judgment.

Call to Action If you found Todd's perspective valuable, share this episode with a fellow recruiter who's looking to grow into new spaces. Follow The Talent Tango for more conversations that help talent leaders level up.

Kit Krugman, SVP of People and Culture at Foursquare, joins to unpack what it really means to be a systems thinker in people leadership. She explains how to move beyond process for process's sake, design people systems that actually work together, and create the kind of vibrancy that drives both performance and connection. This is a conversation about how to think, not just how to operate—ideal for anyone building or leading modern people functions.

Key Takeaways • Systems thinking helps people leaders see the entire ecosystem, not just isolated policies or tools. • Moving from process-driven to principle-driven decisions builds trust and consistency without bureaucracy. • Change management requires deciding between incremental evolution and disruptive redesign—both have a place. • Performance cultures thrive when feedback is continuous, candid, and clearly tied to outcomes. • Measuring "vibrancy" and connection creates a more meaningful signal than traditional engagement metrics.

Timestamped Highlights [01:52] What systems thinking really means for people and culture leaders [04:32] Why principles should outweigh policies when designing fair organizations [08:39] How to balance incremental versus disruptive change [13:01] The "post-PIP world" and diagnosing root causes in performance systems [17:12] Reframing engagement as vibrancy—and how words shape culture [25:34] Why people leaders must show strategic value instead of waiting for recognition

Memorable Moment "I'm tired of the narrative that HR needs to be recognized as strategic. It's on us to show it—to build the evidence that we're driving massive value." — Kit Krugman

Pro Tip If everything feels like it needs a new process, pause and map the system. The issue might not be the process—it might be the underlying philosophy or misaligned signals across your tools, policies, and people.

Call to Action If this conversation challenged how you think about people systems, share it with a fellow leader and follow The Talent Tango on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Every episode explores how people, impact, and technology come together to shape better workplaces.

AI is reshaping how talent teams work, but it's not replacing the human touch. In this episode, Logan Marsh, Head of Talent Acquisition at Calendly, joins Amir to unpack how AI is transforming recruiting from process-heavy to purpose-driven. He shares how Calendly uses AI to enhance efficiency, measure ROI, and empower recruiters to focus on strategy and storytelling—not spreadsheets. This is a real-world look at what's working, what's hype, and how leaders can stay ahead without losing what makes great hiring human.

• How Calendly is weaving AI into its TA tech stack to improve efficiency without losing personalization • Why the most effective AI implementations start with clearly defined problems, not shiny tools • The metrics Logan uses to gauge real ROI from recruiting technology • How TA leaders can secure influence by combining data fluency with storytelling • Why "augmentation, not replacement" is the mindset every recruiter should adopt

01:44 — How Calendly experiments with AI in real recruiting workflows 05:19 — The framework Logan uses to vet and validate new tools 07:38 — Measuring ROI when traditional recruiting metrics fall short 12:03 — The myth of AI taking TA jobs—and what's really changing instead 16:47 — Why storytelling still defines TA's seat at the leadership table 24:51 — How to block out AI noise and focus on solving real problems

"AI can help you tell the story, but it can't tell the story for you. It won't have the conversation with your CEO—that's still on you."

If you're leading teams through the intersection of people, process, and AI, this is an episode to share. Follow The Talent Tango on your favorite platform and join the conversation on LinkedIn for more insights from talent leaders shaping the future of work.

Emily Ellis, Chief People Officer at DriveWealth, joins the show to explore what it really takes to lead with compassion when the decisions are hard. From layoffs and shifting priorities to hiring in high-growth startups, Emily shares how people leaders can balance business realities with humanity—and why that balance ultimately strengthens culture and trust.

Key Takeaways • Feedback is a gift when delivered with honesty and care—it prevents harder issues later. • Hiring slow and with clarity sets the stage for fewer painful exits down the road. • Compassion in layoffs means clarity, transparency, and support beyond the exit. • Employer-employee relationships are dynamic; alignment requires ongoing communication. • Building inclusion into daily practices makes teams stronger in both calm and chaotic times.

Timestamped Highlights 02:20 What "hard things" really mean for leaders and talent teams 06:05 The quiet, often-unspoken contract between employers and employees 08:54 Why hiring managers and people leaders define urgency differently 12:37 How to push back on urgency and find better options without slowing growth 15:36 Delivering layoffs with compassion and clarity in the middle of crisis 18:10 The role of inclusion and cultural belonging as a core leadership responsibility 20:49 How optimism and realism coexist when planning for inevitable change

A line that stood out "Feedback is a gift. Telling someone only what they want to hear might feel easier in the moment, but it usually leads to a much harder conversation down the road."

Call to Action If you found value in this episode, share it with another talent leader who could use a reminder that compassion and business results don't have to be at odds. Follow the show on your favorite platform so you don't miss future conversations.

Startups can't afford to waste time—or budget—on the wrong tools. In this episode, Amir sits down with June Lee, Global Head of People and Culture at Twelve Labs, to unpack how to choose the right people and culture tools at the right stage. From evaluating platforms to navigating AI hype, June shares battle-tested strategies for building scalable, high-impact systems that grow with your company.

Key Takeaways • The best tools don't always come from the loudest vendors—June explains why a listening-first approach trumps cold pitches. • Buying software is only step one. Success depends on how well you manage change and adoption across your team. • You don't need a tool for everything. Manual processes still win in early-stage environments if they save time and budget. • Don't fear migrations. With the right planning, switching tools doesn't mean sacrificing historical data. • AI features are everywhere—but June only pays attention when they solve real, intentional problems (like reducing bias in feedback).

Timestamped Highlights 00:54 — The art (not science) of picking tools that match startup stage 02:30 — Listening tours as the foundation for tool evaluation 05:50 — When a tool is too niche or the manual way is just better 08:05 — How June balances "best-in-class" vs. "emerging" tools 10:50 — Involving HR ops, finance, and security in decision-making 14:55 — Why change management fails when you rely solely on vendor training 17:50 — What real AI value looks like in people platforms 21:20 — The global language bias in AI tools—and why it matters

Quote of the Episode "The best vendor demos won't save you if you haven't figured out what your team actually needs. Listen first, then build."

Call to Action Enjoyed this episode? Share it with a fellow people leader navigating tool sprawl—and don't forget to subscribe to The Talent Tango for more honest, practical insights from the frontlines of talent strategy.

How do you scale fast without lowering the hiring bar? In this episode, Mallory Plank, Head of Talent Acquisition at Guidewheel, joins The Talent Tango to break down how she navigates the constant push and pull between quality and speed. With a background in both agency and in-house recruiting, Mallory brings a clear, operator-level view of stakeholder alignment, prioritization, and TA strategy—especially in scrappy, fast-paced startup environments.

Key Takeaways:

• TA leaders must shift from service center to strategic partner. That means aligning hiring plans to business outcomes—and saying "no" when needed.

• A strong intake process isn't a checkbox; it's the foundation for speed and quality. Mallory distills it down to three clear non-negotiables.

• When stakeholders ask for the impossible, data becomes your ally. Mallory shares how she uses a 2–3 day sprint model to gather evidence and reset expectations.

• Process improvement starts with communication—especially when your "product" is people.

• Your recruiters need more than reqs. Investing in their development keeps morale high during inevitable pivots.

Timestamped Highlights: [01:52] — Why stakeholder management was Mallory's reason for leaving agency recruiting [04:49] — How she frames her team as strategic partners, not "order takers" [07:24] — The real key to balancing speed and quality in startup hiring [11:47] — Why TA has a harder time saying "no" to impossible reqs—and how to change that [17:18] — Using sprints and goals to push back on unrealistic roles [21:31] — You can't hide in the background—early-stage TA demands visibility and advocacy

Quote of the Episode: "Recruiting is riddled with gray area. You have to love the chaos a little bit to be good at this work."

Call to Action: If you're a TA leader balancing speed and quality—or trying to shift your team into a true partner function—this episode is for you.

Listen now and follow The Talent Tango for more unfiltered conversations with operators in the people space.

What happens when you treat employee experience like a product? Neervi Shah Patel, Chief People Officer at Faire, joins the show to share how her team brings the same level of operational rigor and customer obsession to PeopleOps that product teams bring to user experience. From leveraging data to embracing transparency, Neervi breaks down how to build scalable, fair, and high-performing orgs—without losing the human side.

If you lead people, run HR, or are scaling a team at a startup, this episode will shift how you think about the function.

Key Takeaways – Think like a product team: Employee experience should be intentionally designed, tested, and iterated—just like a customer journey. – Rigor means relevance: Metrics, clarity, and outcomes matter—but rigor doesn't mean making HR transactional. – Fairness is a performance strategy: When employees believe the system is fair, trust increases—and so does performance. – Don't ignore the anecdotes: When stories and data diverge, it's a signal to dig deeper. Listening matters as much as measurement. – AI is now a must-have filter: Every HR tool Faire evaluates now gets assessed through the lens of its AI capabilities.

Timestamped Highlights [02:26] Applying product discipline to PeopleOps [05:43] How Neervi's background in sales and consulting shapes her HR leadership [08:24] Why fairness and trust should drive policy—not just process [12:00] How manager messaging can build (or break) organizational trust [15:03] What data they collect—and how they make it useful across the employee lifecycle [21:11] Why every new HR tech tool must be AI-native moving forward

Quote of the Episode "If it saves us three steps but makes it ten steps harder for the employee, that's not a win. We'd never do that for a customer—why would we do it to our people?" — Neervi Shah Patel

Resources Mentioned – Faire: faire.com – Neervi on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/neervishahpatel – Referenced (paraphrased) Jeff Bezos quote: "If data and anecdotes diverge, trust the anecdote—you may be measuring the wrong thing."

Pro Tips for Operators – Build in feedback loops at every employee lifecycle stage—onboarding, engagement, exits. – Require manager alignment and ownership in performance processes to avoid undermining fairness. – Don't sacrifice employee experience for operational ease—just like you wouldn't for customers.

Call to Action If you're ready to run PeopleOps like a strategic business function, not a support team, share this episode with a fellow leader. And make sure you're subscribed to The Talent Tango for more conversations like this one.

What does it really look like to run the entire People function solo — and still operate at a strategic level? In this episode, Anisha Thomas, Head of People at Inscribe, shares what it takes to be a team of one at a fast-paced AI startup. From managing headcount planning without over-hiring to leaning on tech to avoid burnout, she offers a refreshingly honest look at how she keeps her footing in the chaos. If you've ever worn "all the hats," this one's for you.

1. Leadership Without a Team Anisha reflects on how returning to IC work after leading a team has sharpened her understanding of what real leadership requires — trust, delegation, and a deep knowing of where she adds the most value.

2. Strategy Needs Time Balancing operational fire drills with strategic priorities is hard — but having a clear North Star for the day, week, and quarter helps her stay grounded and protect time for long-term thinking.

3. AI as a Teammate, Not a Threat From tools like Ashby and Lattice to constant use of ChatGPT, she's finding ways to automate the admin and protect energy for what matters most — culture, trust, and conversations.

4. Reimagining Headcount Planning Instead of annual hiring plans, Inscribe ties new roles to real business triggers. It's a shift from "gut feel" to metrics and milestones — and it could help stabilize People orgs for the long haul.

• 00:55 – "I'm a team of one." Anisha shares how her role has evolved from builder to leader… and back again.

• 02:19 – How she splits her time between candidate calls, performance reviews, and strategy.

• 04:14 – The cost of context switching, and how she protects her time with clear priorities.

• 06:04 – Why she was nervous to hire her first team… and what she learned about delegating.

• 09:48 – Connecting the dots across the org — even without a big team.

• 12:20 – The People tech stack she swears by — and how AI makes her life easier.

• 14:25 – The future of People teams: small, efficient, and AI-enabled.

• 16:57 – How tying headcount to revenue milestones changes the talent game.

• 18:50 – Why being in the weeds will always be a superpower — even for leaders.

"I don't want there to be a disconnect between what we're building and how we work. So being AI-enabled isn't optional — it's table stakes." — Anisha Thomas

• Ashby (for recruiting automation)

• Lattice (performance + engagement)

In this episode of The Talent Tango, Amir sits down with Ashley Utz, Chief People Officer at Happy Money, to explore the complex task of rebuilding trust within organizations—especially during periods of change like layoffs, restructuring, or leadership transitions. Ashley offers a nuanced perspective on the differences between personal and organizational trust, shares frameworks like Covey's "Speed of Trust" model, and emphasizes the critical role of middle managers in trust-building. With timely insights and practical strategies, this conversation is a must-listen for HR and talent leaders navigating today's uncertain workplace climate.

1. Trust Starts at a Deficit Assume employees are coming in with skepticism due to societal and institutional breakdowns in trust. This sets the foundation for how HR and leadership must engage.

2. Define the Type of Trust You're Building Organizational trust differs from personal trust. It's less about emotional intimacy and more about clarity, consistency, and respect.

3. Two-Part Trust Model: Character + Competence Drawing from Stephen Covey's "Speed of Trust" model—great leaders are both good people and good at their jobs. You need integrity and execution in equal measure.

4. Layoffs Are Trust Landmines When handling layoffs or restructures, transparency around the "why", dignity in treatment, and careful follow-through on promises are essential.

5. People Trust People—Not Institutions Managers are frontline trust builders. Equip them to communicate with care and personalize messages to their teams.

• 00:00 – Intro to Ashley Utz and Happy Money's mission in financial wellness

• 01:53 – Trust in institutions is at historic lows; how that affects workplace dynamics

• 03:30 – The paradox of radical transparency and why "oversharing" can backfire

• 04:37 – Personal vs. organizational trust: clarity, consistency, and fairness vs. emotional loyalty

• 08:28 – Covey's Trust Model: character + competence

• 11:10 – Trust is built top-down, bottom-up, and especially in the middle

• 14:09 – How to communicate during layoffs and restructuring with empathy and clarity

• 17:11 – Managers' role in contextualizing top-down messaging and building daily trust

• 20:11 – Final takeaway: "Trust is quiet... earned in the little things, lost in the gaps, and rebuilt through action"

"Trust is quiet. It's earned in the little things, lost in the gaps, and rebuilt through action. It's not about being perfect—but about being worthy."

In this episode, Amir sits down with Greg Russell, VP of Talent Acquisition at CoverGenius, to unpack why talent acquisition should be treated like project management. They explore how applying frameworks like the project management triangle (scope, cost, time) can elevate recruiting conversations, drive better alignment, and ultimately improve hiring outcomes. From setting expectations with hiring managers to negotiating trade-offs, this episode reframes TA as a strategic, structured discipline—not just a reactive function.

• TA is not just sales—it's strategic project management. Hiring is a major business investment and deserves the same rigor.

• The PM Triangle applies directly to hiring. You can't optimize for speed, cost, and quality all at once—there must be trade-offs.

• TA professionals must own their expertise. Recruiters should feel empowered to push back, educate hiring managers, and protect process integrity.

• Confidence and mindset matter. Viewing recruiting as a craft fosters pride, learning, and better long-term performance.

• Borrowing language from other teams (like engineering) helps. Using PM frameworks and terminology earns credibility and promotes alignment.

• 00:59 – Introducing the idea: TA as project management.

• 02:41 – Why each hire is a high-cost, long-term business investment.

• 04:26 – The challenge of TA being undervalued or misunderstood.

• 08:09 – Project management triangle: budget, scope, time trade-offs in hiring.

• 11:39 – Lack of standardized PM methodology in TA—and why that should change.

• 12:34 – Teaching hiring managers the trade-offs and setting expectations.

• 14:38 – Using familiar frameworks (like Scrum) to align with engineers.

• 16:22 – Why order-taking kills TA's credibility—and how to avoid it.

• 19:22 – TA is the expert in hiring—own that expertise in every room.

• 25:44 – The "order at a restaurant" fallacy in hiring expectations.

• 28:00 – Building recruiter confidence and pride in their craft.

• 30:47 – Treating recruiting as a craft versus a job—why it matters for growth.

"You are the expert in that room when it comes to hiring. Even if you're sitting with the CTO—own your craft, set the expectations, and drive the project."