In this episode of The Dr. Hedberg Show, I interview dietitian Diana Rodgers in a discussion about plant-based diets, meat, and her upcoming documentary and book project Sacred Cow.  Speaking to Diana was a breathe of fresh air among all the misinformation out there about plant-based diets and meat.  We discussed the potential pitfalls of plant-based diets including protein and micronutrient deficiencies.  Diana covered important information about the true environmental impact of meat and how important grazing cows are to the environment.  You should come away from this interview with a better understanding of plant-based diets, meat, and it's environmental and socioeconomic impact.  I urge you to support Diana's Sacred Cow project and to look out for the upcoming documentary.

Full Transcript of the Interview:

Dr. Hedberg: Well, welcome everyone to "The Dr. Hedberg Show." This is Dr. Hedberg and I'm really looking forward to my conversation today with Diana Rodgers. She's a registered dietitian. And she's known as a real food nutritionist. And she actually lives and works on an organic farm near Boston, Massachusetts. She's an author. And she runs her own clinical nutrition practice. Her work has been featured in the "Los Angeles Times," "The Boston Globe," and "Outside Magazine." Diana writes and speaks internationally about the intersection of optimal human nutrition and environmental sustainability.

And she's the producer of the Sustainable Dish Podcast, which I highly recommend. And Diana is an advisory board member of Animal Welfare Approved, the Savory Institute, and Whole30. And her new film and book project "Sacred Cow" examines the environmental, nutritional and ethical case for better meat. And her website is sustainabledish.com. So Diana, thanks for joining us.

Diana: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Hedberg: So I was really looking forward to this because there's this kind of avalanche of plant-based propaganda out there. There's been some Netflix documentaries, and some well-known movie stars, and medical doctors, putting a lot of information about this. And it's become a little frustrating and a little extreme. And so I wanted to bring you on to put the brakes on this a little bit and educate people. In fact, I saw this commercial the other day for Raid bug spray. And their big thing is that the insecticides are plant-based. So you're seeing this all over the place, plant-based this, plant-based that. So why don't we begin by just talking about some of the main dietary deficiencies in a plant-based diet? So I'm mainly seeing iron and iodine, B12. So can you talk a little bit about the micronutrient deficiencies, and potential protein issues with plant-based diet?

Diana: Yeah. I mean, I'd love to start with protein actually. I'm a huge protein advocate. And I looked into the recommendations for protein. Where did they come from? Why does everyone think we only need about 50 grams of protein per day, a little less for women, a little more for men? Like, where did that all come from? And turns out that they're really wrong, they're really low. And the recommendations for protein are based on the minimum that we need for basic survival. And they're also based on an ideal body weight of women at about 125 pounds, I think, and men at 154 pounds.

And so if we look at the average weight of our population, it's way higher than that. And so the 0.8 grams per kilogram of body weight is at, you know, where people think that we only need about 45 grams of protein for women, and about 54 for men are based on way thinner people than the average population. So in my clinical practice, I always start people at about 100 grams of protein, and nobody is eating that much protein. And it's really hard to get your protein from a plant-based diet for a few reasons. One is it's really hard to get it from plants, just because they're lacking in certain amino acids. So we don't really need protein, we need amino acids. And plants are pretty low in some of the more important ones for our health and for satiety. So it's just really hard to get what we need from plants. And it's also hard to get what we need from plants without over-consuming overall calories.

So for trying to get, let's say, 30 grams of protein from a piece of steak, that's about a 4-ounce piece of steak at about 180 calories. But you would need to eat about 700 worth calories of peanut butter to get the same amount of calories. So people, you know, think that they're all set with a little scoop of peanut butter instead of, you know, maybe some eggs or some sausage for breakfast. And that's absolutely not true. So, you know, if we are low in protein, we see all kinds of problems, number one, it's just really hard to feel full and you'll end up eating more calories. So protein is the most satiating of the macronutrients.

And we've got a problem today in America with overweight, obese, and type two diabetes. And upping protein can really correct a lot of those problems and especially for people who are stressed, have autoimmune diseases, are recovering from illness, growing, or are over 40. So that's pretty much every single person likely listening to your podcast. They have an increased need for protein. So double the RDA is a really great place to start, this 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight, which is, you know, at least 100 grams for women and likely much more. So upping your protein, getting it from animal sources will make you feel fuller, is a lower calorie way of getting your nutrients, so it's more nutrient-dense. And it's tastier than getting it from plants in my opinion. So that's the first thing.

And then as far as nutrient density, animals are way more nutrient-dense than humans per serving. So when we look at nutrient density, that's the amount of micronutrients you get per calorie of food. Things like lettuce actually, technically are quite nutrient-dense, you know, per calorie, but a serving of lettuce is really low in calories. And so you would need to eat, you know, 27 cups of lettuce to get the same nutrients you can get in a small piece of animal flesh. So when we look at nutrient density per serving, what we're seeing is way more nutrition from animal-based foods and from plant-based foods.

And I'm not saying that, you know, people should never eat plants, there's some benefits to eating plants for sure. And I personally am not animal-only eater. But definitely, things like B12, DHA, choline, iron, these are all things that are really hard to get from plants that are really easy to get from animals. And worldwide, B12 and iron are the most common nutrient deficiencies, especially in women. And so, you know, we're not gonna fix that with more salad, we definitely need more animal protein.

Dr. Hedberg: Right, right. I've been using about 1.5 grams per kilogram. So I've got to bump that up to 1.6 for most people...

Diana: Yeah. I mean, I think it's not a true science. Definitely, everyone has a different need, and we're not computers. And so, you know, I did a nutrient density challenge in January where I was trying to maximize my protein and micronutrients. And I was feeling really great about 140 grams of protein per day. And that's how much I weigh. So even as high as one gram of protein per pound of body weight can be really helpful. So it really all depends on the person.

Dr. Hedberg: Right, right. Yeah. When I was bodybuilding in the '90s, we consumed one gram per pound of body weight, but sometimes more than that. Sometimes 1.2, 1.5, we would go pretty high and felt great. So one of the things I always explain to patients is the fountain of youth isn't really all that much of a mystery at this point, at least based on the research that I've read. The increase in sarcopenia and maintaining muscle mass as we age can do more for you than almost anything that I've really ever read about. And as we age, we need actually more protein and we need to maintain muscle mass. And that's from what I've read, can significantly decrease all-cause mortality. So that kind of buttresses what you were just saying.

Diana: Totally. Yeah. I mean, the diet that I mentioned was actually a nutrient-dense protein sparing modified fast, and it was fantastic. I felt so amazing when I was doing it. So I know that's like a typical bodybuilder's diet. I'm definitely not a bodybuilder, but I ended up losing in one month, seven pounds and gained two pounds of muscle. So, you know, if we eat more protein and then stimulate our bodies to build muscle at the same time, we will lose fat and not just weight. So a lot of people will say, "Oh, I, you know, went plant-based and I lost weight," but likely they lost a ton of muscle. And we don't want to be losing muscle, especially anyone over 40 wants to be gaining muscle and preserving muscle mass as much as possible.

Dr. Hedberg: Right, right. Exactly. So one of the other things that's out there are a lot of these plant-based food replacements, like plant-based burgers, and plant-based drinks, and things like that. And the ingredients that I've seen, these are really low quality. Some of them have, you know, like canola oil, and a lot of other really bad ingredients. So can you talk a little bit about some of these plant-based types of products that are out there that are becoming more popular?

Diana: Yeah. And I have an issue with them on so many levels as an organic farmer. I mean, they're just separating people from their food producers more. They're not sustainable and cleaner although they're marketed that way. And they're certainly not healthier, and I would argue, not even more ethical. So, you know, things I actually looked up Beyond Burger on Walmart's website and compared it to you can get organic grass-fed beef at Walmart is probably not the same as getting it from, you know, your farmer up the street,