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Guest Stuart Pickles is the Managing Director of the UK-based leadership consultancy, Aim Higher Leadership (www.aimhigherleadership.com). A former CFO with more than 25 years of experience in blue chip companies such as Unilever, Kraft Foods, and Fosters, Stuart accelerates the development of higher-level leadership for social justice, climate justice, and building a regenerative future. In this episode, Stuart shares his insights and strategies for using privilege to drive positive change. Listen to this podcast as Dr. Karen dialogues with Stuart about how he, as a white male, is learning to leverage his privilege to create a better and more inclusive world.

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In this episode, our subject is going to be about creating inclusive and multicultural environments and understanding that most of us, especially most of us who live in the Western world, have some degree of privilege. Some of us have more privilege than others but most of us have privilege that we can leverage to create inclusive and multicultural environments. I have a special guest from the UK. Stay with me as we talk about him and also the conversation.

Let me tell you a little bit about my guest. His name is Stuart Pickles. Leadership Coach Stuart Pickles is the Managing Director of the leadership consultancy, Aim Higher Leadership. He works with leaders across sectors, focusing increasingly on how to accelerate the development of the higher levels of leadership required to solve the major challenges of social justice and climate justice facing the world and to build a regenerative future. 

Formerly a Chief Financial Officer, Stuart spent 25 years working in blue-chip companies such as Unilever, Kraft Foods, and Fosters. Located in the UK, he combines commercial and strategic acumen with a deep passion for honoring nature and humanity. Stuart, thank you so much for being here with me. I’m welcoming you to the show. 

Thank you so much, Karen. I’m delighted to be with you. Thank you so much for creating this space and for having this important conversation. 

Thank you for being willing to engage in this important conversation. It’s important for us to reach across the ocean and even contact each other from different countries. Thank you for being a part of that as well. Let me launch right in, Stuart. I’m going to ask you some questions. In the United States, we have had the Coronavirus pandemic and what I’ve been calling a pandemic of injustice. 

This pandemic of injustice has included lots of incidents, like police brutality against Black people and other examples of racial unrest, including the storming of the US Capitol building by those who were carrying Confederate flags and also wearing and carrying symbols of antisemitism. That’s what’s been going on in part in the United States. What’s been the racial, ethnic, and social justice climate in the UK?

COVID-19 has impacted us in similar ways in other countries. What I call the social justice issues in the US, and all that’s come into the foreground of all of our awareness, with the brutal murder of George Floyd, you’d be amazed at how much that has been also in the media and the psyche of everybody here in the UK as well.

It’s also brought to our attention, and there’s been a lot of things that have been brought out in the media about similar kinds of injustices in our criminal justice system as well. Maybe some people would argue not so extreme but the interesting thing is there’s a lot more of it here than people realize. It’s probably less obvious but it’s still there. That’s been coming into the awareness. There’s been a lot of programs and TV coverage.

One of the interesting things is that we have a lot of statues in the UK, which celebrate people who became rich and powerful because of their involvement in the slave trade. There was one very famous moment, and I can’t remember when it was exactly when a statue of one of those people in Bristol was pulled down and thrown into the dock of the water by the sea in the harbor. 

There’s been a big conversation about to what extent should we remove all of these statues and anybody who was complicit in slavery and all of the gains of that should be removed. The conversation moves on there and there’s been some people even calling for the removal of statues of Churchill because of his involvement in racism. There’s been a lot of heated discussions, especially in the universities and more generally in public dialogue. It’s very much so in the public consciousness, although a lot of the stimulus for that has come from what’s been happening in the very powerful images of the things we’ve seen in America. 

Thank you so much for letting us know the impact also in the UK. Something similar between what you said about the UK and what I see also going on in the US is this. Lots of incidents have been happening for many years here in the United States. However, not everyone has been aware of those incidents. If you are a Black person, you know about police brutality. As long as I’ve been living it around, which has been a long time, I’ve been aware of it. 

Many of my White friends and colleagues are less aware. They don’t know the extent to which this is highly prevalent. It’s not just a one-off kind of situation. It sounds like 2020, which I’ve referred to as the vision year, has allowed us to see some things that we normally might not see or realize are going on, and then we say, “There’s more happening than what I thought was occurring.” In the UK, maybe even more so a disparity between reality and what people recognize as reality.

In the article I wrote, which I know you read, the other metaphor that I was using was almost like the permafrost was melting. As the ice is melting, we’re beginning to see all of the injustices that were hidden and frozen forever. It’s very difficult for everybody to come to terms with it but it’s there and it’s real. We have to face up to the reality of it. 

As the ice is melting, we're beginning to see all of the injustices that were hidden and frozen forever.
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Thank you. I’m glad that you are amongst a growing number of people who are recognizing the need to face up to it. Stuart, tell me a little bit about what’s happening in the workplaces in the UK. You work in a consultative way in many companies and corporations in the UK. How are these issues impacting the workplace there, these issues of social justice or racial and ethnic diversity?

My understanding is that it’s probably not that dissimilar to the US in the sense that we have diversity, equity, and inclusion as an almost strategic priority for most organizations that have very much interest in their reputation. It’s moved beyond something that’s an option. The major organizations will have diversity, equity, and inclusion right at the top of their strategic priorities. Whether or not what they’re doing about it is making enough progress is another question. 

You and I spoke about unconscious bias or training as we call it in the UK. In the US, you call it something slightly different, which is implicit bias. With some of that training, is it in danger sometimes of being a tick-box exercise? Maybe. It can be. I can speak about my experience of an unconscious bias, diversity, equity, and inclusion workshop that I attended that I commissioned for my business and my team, which was incredibly effective, very disruptive, and is probably the reason why I’m on this show. I do believe that many great people are doing many great things but we’ve got a long way to go. 

I certainly agree with you that there is certainly a tendency at times like this to do lip service or what we used to call in the military, window dressing. It looks like you’re doing the right thing when in fact you’re not doing anything that’s truly going to move the needle. How do you get past or beyond even taking a statue down? What is going to make a difference for the person who’s living in terms of their economic reality, health reality, and opportunity to have a living wage and a good life?

When I think about the corporate sense, I know that there’ve been many companies in the US over the years who would want to check off the box. Yes, we did our diversity training but we have not changed a thing about our policies or practices. We’re not conducting internal audits. In other words, we’ve remained the same but we can say we’re doing the right thing. 

In the US, this has manifested a lot with people that different companies are putting out statements in support of people of color at a time like this, which is important. It’s just that it’s the early beginning stages and you’ve got to go further than that. I’m happy to see you say that as well. Tell us a little bit more about what you’ve been learning personally about social justice and your privilege in this climate. 

I mentioned that workshop that we had and the facilitator who came. We ran the workshop in my house, in my living room, with a group of about ten of us. Razia Aziz is her name. She works for the Equality Academy in the UK. I highly recommend her. She came in and held the mirror to me and us. 

One of the things that we’re painfully aware of is that as things stand in that group, there are no people of color. That’s one of the things that we start with realizing that that’s something that is an issue for us to hold but more importantly, what is our awareness of our privilege in holding that mirror up? She said to me, “Look at you. You’re living with this privilege day in and day out.” 

Look at you. You're living with this privilege day in and day out.
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It was hard. To be honest, initially, it felt quite rude. You invite somebody into your house. I’ve never invited anybody into my house. Normally people will thank you for your hospitality and they’re very polite. I got over that. It took me a while but when I reflected afterward, it made me realize that it was the disruption I needed. That’s what led me on this journey. It’s a bit of upset and pain at the start but it’s brought me to a place where I’m invigorated along the journey. 

I read a number of books, which I mentioned in the article, the White Fragility by Robin DiAngelo, Me and White Supremacy by Layla Saad. Why I’m No Longer Talking to White People About Race by Reni Eddo-Lodge. The levels of learning and challenges come from this learning. It’s very hard but also rewarding. I feel invigorated and ready to do more. I realized that it’s a lifetime of work as well. It’s not something that you can solve in any short period. 

A lot of companies sometimes don’t recognize that once you make a decision to walk in this direction, this is a long-term commitment. It’s not a short-term issue at all. You don’t just do one training program and that’s the end. We’re talking about major culture change and making some huge strides to doing things in a different way. I like what you said about how the person who came to assist held up the mirror. Sometimes, we don’t like what we see in the mirror. Maybe some hairs are out of place, there’s a pimple on your face, or something’s wrong with your clothing.

However, if you don’t have a mirror, then you don’t have an opportunity to adjust and change. First of all, I applaud you for being willing to look in the mirror and then secondly, to go to the level where you feel invigorated and are willing to step forward and do something different. You’ve already started a major journey with all the readings that you’re doing and the article that you wrote. What are you learning on this deeper level from all of your experiences about social justice? What’s been the biggest insight from some of that learning? 

There are a couple of things that particularly stand out. One is, and Razia said this to us, “Rich comes with a penalty.” Once you realize that your privilege means that somebody lacks privilege, then there’s a penalty attached to that. Once you realize that, you can no longer enjoy a privilege without realizing that somebody else is disadvantaged as a result. That was quite a hard-hitting insight, which got me thinking.

Rich comes with a penalty.
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We talked a lot about privilege. One of the things that helped me to start understanding more about this was the notion that privilege is the absence of barriers. If you have barriers, you will see them but if there’s an absence of barriers, you won’t see them because, by definition, you can’t see what’s not there. A lot of people have this privilege but don’t realize it because they don’t know what it means to have a lack of privilege and what those barriers even would look like.

I was one of those many White people who believed that I was non-racist. I didn’t see color as a reason for differentiating between people. I thought that I was genuinely being fair in all of my dealings with people. I’m sure there were cases where I wasn’t but certainly, my intention was good I thought. The thing about color blindness is that it’s “color blindness.”

What that’s saying is that you’re not seeing a person of color for their lived experience, which is fundamentally different from that lived experience of a White person or anybody of privilege for that matter. This is a wider conversation than just race but this is the context that we’re talking about. I’m a White man, straight, cisgender, and have all of those different contexts with the privilege. It’s not just about race. Particularly in the context of race, the biggest learning of all is that it’s not good enough to be non-racist. We have to be anti-racist.

The other thing is an interesting and important concept. I’m crucial to helping White people unlock almost this kind of gridlock that a lot of White people are in. This is a difficult subject for them. If somebody says to a White person, “You’re racist,” the White person interprets that as meaning that it’s intended. As long as there’s a feeling or that there’s an accusation of intention, then there’s a rejection and defense of that. The wall goes up.

Racism doesn’t have to be intentional. We can be well-intentioned but we are still complicit in a system that perpetuates social injustice, as I call it, the disadvantage, prejudice, and everything that goes with it. To be non-complicit, it’s not just about not having the intention but having a positive intention to stop the complicity by doing something about it. There are many examples that we can talk more about but fundamentally, that’s the most important insight and learning that’s come out of this for me. 

I want to highlight a few of the things that you mentioned. You were talking about the absence of barriers if you’re on the privileged side and also what I call The Cost. What does it cost to be in a situation where one group is privileged and let’s say some other groups are not? That means somebody’s paying something. You may not even be fully aware of the price that those others are paying but they’re paying. 

It reminds me of an illustration I once saw. I saw a picture where there were people in a restaurant enjoying the food and having a wonderful time. From their vantage point, there was a sign on the door of the restaurant facing them that said, “Open.” There were people outside the restaurant who they could see at the door and they weren’t coming in. 

The people inside were wondering, “How come these people aren’t coming in?” They didn’t understand that on that side of the door, the sign said, “Closed.” It’s such a great illustration that when you’re inside, let’s say where the privilege is, the door is open. You don’t see a problem. You don’t see what the people outside the door are facing and the barriers or roadblocks that are up for them in that sense that are there. That’s an important point of what you said.

It’s not enough to just say, “I’m a colorblind person.” Colorblind means you’re not seeing things. Many people have believed that that’s the objective. The objective is not to become colorblind. It’s to be more aware of one another and go a little bit deeper. You’re doing two things. You’re stopping something, which you mentioned the anti-racism part, and you’re also starting something. You’re increasing inclusion more in that way. It’s a two-fold thing, something stopping and something starting.

A lot of times, people don’t understand that if you stop something and you don’t put in something new, something worse may come along in a sense. You have to be intentional about what you’re also building and also what you’re creating. I wanted to highlight those things in what you said because those points are so significant. What insights relate to the work that you and your company are called to do? Tell me a little bit about how this is affecting the work that you do and also, what you may have to do internally and who you are to do that work. 

We have to think about it on a number of different levels. The work has to start with the self initially. We have to go in and do quite a bit of this work on our own. Not only understand our privilege but the extent to which our behavior may be impacted by the privilege and the lack of awareness of the disadvantage of others. I’m a leadership coach and I work with a team of colleagues. We had that meeting. We’ve had further workshops and conversations. It continues to shape what we do.

It’s led to me writing this article and coming on a show like this. I’m going to be working in some DEI workshops going forward and engaging with clients on this subject as well. I’ve had clients coming to me and talking about situations where they may have had some complaints from people about racism in the culture. Being able to sit alongside people who face that challenge and helping them to work their way through it without dealing with the guilt and the fear are probably the hardest things to get over.

They naturally arise initially anyway but they are so unhelpful. They paralyze and repel an individual from moving towards engagement and action. That’s an awareness of that. It’s the ability to help people through conversation to start exploring that and opening themselves up to the journey. The journey is one of those phrases people like to use. I do think it’s a long journey. We have to take it one step at a time but it’s important that we take the steps and we don’t worry. We do something. 

I like what you said, where you said sometimes the barriers or the racism that exists is not intentional. A lot of times, when people feel blamed or it’s an in-your-face kind of experience where fingers are pointing at them, that’s when the guards and shields go up. You also mentioned this dead sense of guilt, fear, and so on. What have you found that works at the feeling level so that people can get past that and maybe get to some feelings that are more facilitative of the forward progression? How have you felt yourself even in engaging all this and going forward?

I spoke about the upset and hurt. I’ve talked about the guilt and the fear. When you ask me how I felt, I’ll say those words again. Those have been the feelings that one has had to work with. I do think that the intention piece is an important key to the lock. It’s how a White person or a person of privilege feels when they’re being accused of doing something intentionally. When they are convinced that they’re not doing anything intentionally or with any bad intention, then that’s where the door won’t open. 

If you can help open the mind to the fact that there are things that need to be addressed in the system and that there’s no intention on your part that this is happening, letting go of that, there’s liberation, which means that you can clear your conscience to that degree in terms of there’s no accusation of an ill intention but there’s still work to be done. 

That’s to look hard at the mirror to demonstrate the privilege and then look beyond the mirror to see what’s on the other side and see the disadvantage that sits on the other side of the coin. One of the things that I started doing with the invitation from the books that I’ve read and the things that people have said is to take myself back to situations where I’ve been in a situation of disadvantage and prejudice. 

The two best examples in my case are ones of bullying 1 or 2 people. Older boys at school would come and get you into a corner where there were no teachers or anybody else around, hit you a couple of times hard, and threaten you to do much worse if you told anybody. It’s that feeling of being powerless. Most of us have experienced at some level in our lives, some degree of this kind of injustice.

In my work life, I came across 1 or 2 extreme examples of people who were in positions of power and abusing it, bullying people, being on the receiving end of that myself, and realizing how powerless one feels and how angry one feels. That’s one way that at least you can somehow put yourself into the shoes. I’m not suggesting that those injustices are anything compared to the injustices of people of color. I would want to make that clear but at least there’s some degree of being able to empathize and realize. If you multiply that by 100 or 1,000 times, that’s what’s going on for people of color. Those would be a couple of things. 

I like the fact that you’re talking about being able to empathize with others by going back to incidents, even in your life, maybe not the same but you know the feeling of powerlessness, at least in your situation. I do believe that a lot of the foundation of forward progression does involve empathy. It involves some conversations and sharing between people to understand what others have experienced and what others are going through and have gone through that we might not always know or be aware of. 

Secondly, you also mentioned the importance of looking at the systems. A lot of times, we want to look individually and define racism as something that someone’s thinking or feeling internally when in fact, there are so many systems that are set up in place that have become almost invisible to us. Systems and corporations, systems and governments that have differential impacts. 

We have to examine them. Even if we can’t see what the differential impacts are right away, we have to at least be willing to look at them to uncover what they could be and listen to those people from different groups who might be like those on the outside of the restaurant seeing the Closed sign. We don’t know sometimes what others are experiencing at the system level until we investigate a little further. 

I’m glad you brought both of those up, the empathy piece and also the system piece. They’re both quite important in terms of moving forward. Stuart, many people of color get very concerned about Whites who want to “help.” They fear that White privilege is going to be used as another means to call the shots and shape the narrative. How will you avoid these outcomes and establish a true partnership as you move forward? 

This is one of the hardest things. I can sit here and say, “What’s my motivation for being here? Is it to somehow assuage my guilt or make myself look better?” It’s quite difficult to be 100% confident that there’s none of that in there. Part of being truly authentic is to say that maybe there is a bit of that. One has to look deep into one’s intentions. A much wider picture of the legacy I want to leave is to create a better world where the injustices of the past are not perpetuated. That doesn’t answer your question. It’s a good example.

I’m in conversation with somebody at the moment, a person of color. Together, we’re talking about running an unconscious bias workshop with a group of people. It’s more of an inquiry. We’re even wondering about what to call it for it to try and break more ground than perhaps some traditional workshops of this nature. I want very much to lead it and I’m noticing that desire. I’m trying very hard to pull back and allow my partner to work through what will work best. To what extent will it be my voice and hers? How can my voice be brought in in a way that complements but doesn’t take center stage? It’s back to the whole White-centering problem. I’m aware of that risk. Have I worked out how to avoid it yet? Probably not. It’s a work in progress. Awareness is a big part of that. 

Awareness is a big part of it. It’s quite insidious, meaning we can think that we’re not doing it, and in fact, we might be. Sometimes people allow those risks to cause them not to even step into the arena. What I would say is that we all can grow even as we engage in this work and work together. You will learn, get feedback from your partners, and give them permission to give you feedback when you might inadvertently show up in a way that reflects the White privilege background and don’t even know it, not even aware of it.

If we don’t talk to each other, honestly, don’t share, give feedback, and say, “Here’s what that feels like to me,” I wonder what else we could do besides what we’re doing at the moment. A lot of times, when I think about the whole business of partnership, there’s a saying that is often said over here quite often amongst people of color about interventions. They’ll say, “Nothing about us without us.”

The objective is the co-creation and being able to see together what’s going on. For those who may be in an affected community, having their voice is very large about what they’re experiencing and what they think they need. You would lend your privilege towards the resolution and outcome as defined by those who will be benefiting. The truth is the whole society benefits when we are addressing these issues that we’re talking about. I would certainly encourage you to engage the learning and not be afraid. You’re going to make mistakes. 

It comes back to my point about fear. If one can be paralyzed by the fear of making mistakes, and I’ve made so many, it’s so easy to stumble and fall. Invite feedback. Most importantly, react appropriately to the feedback. If one doesn’t respond well to feedback, then feedback will stop coming and you’ll stop learning. That’s probably the most important of all. If people can feel that they can give you feedback, then they will. 

You both can grow because you’re both going to give each other feedback. You grow and learn together. What are the recommendations you have for White people about how to best approach multiculturalism, diversity, equity, inclusion, and all these things we’ve been talking about? What else would you say to them? 

I feel as though it may be a distillation of some of the things we’ve already said. One of them is to think deeply about this question of intention and let go of the belief that to be racist, you have to be doing it intentionally. At some level, it’s okay. There’s a reassurance in a way that I would encourage giving the White people. I’d say, “You’re not being accused of doing this intentionally. You’re being invited to come and join a dialogue about things that we can do something about.” That frame is so different. By doing that, there is this possibility of people letting go of their guilt, all of which paralyzes action, frees people up to do something about it, and enables them to enter the fray and the dialogue and start learning.

That’s a learning journey that I believe will probably never end for me. It’s extraordinary. Since my mind was open to this, the amount of things that I found myself seeking out, reading, watching, and learning about in conversations was amazing. I watched James Baldwin’s I’m Not Your Negro, that amazing film. There’s a great Black British historian here in the UK called David Olusoga, who put together an amazing series talking about racism in the UK. There are so many examples. Open your mind and get ready for a learning journey. 

That’s great advice and I love the fact that you are highlighting the conversations that are going to be necessary that people have together in moving forward. How can people reach you later? Where can they get in touch with you, Stuart?

Probably the easiest is to give you my email address, which is [email protected]. Our website is www.AimHigherLeadership.com 

Thank you very much for sharing that information. I’m sure some people may want to contact you to continue some conversations with you, even on this subject. 

I would love that. I would welcome any conversations and you can also get me on LinkedIn as well. 

As we’re preparing to wrap up and close our conversation, what words of wisdom do you want to leave for my audience of executive business leaders? 

In a nutshell, it would be the phrase, “Racism doesn’t mean intention.” That one phrase is the key that can unlock this conversation. 

Racism doesn't mean intention.
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Thank you so much, Stuart, for being with me and also for sharing with my audience your wonderful experiences. In other words, 2020 was an eye-opening year and we’re heading into what I’m calling the Year of Impact to do something about all of these issues that we’ve seen and observed. 

It’s been a very great pleasure, Karen. I know that we will be continuing our conversation on this subject. I look forward to engaging with others, broadening the dialogue, and being part of the change.

Thank you so much for the part you’re already taking in the change. What I’d like to say to my audience out there as we’re wrapping things up is to remember what our guest, Stuart, said. It’s not about intention. Many times, we are complicit in activities without intending anything. Sometimes, there are systems that exist that we didn’t even put in place. However, helping to change those systems is what we can do for good as we move forward. 

What we want to focus on is what can we do together that makes a difference and that moves the needle. In the language that I might use, we are creating co-created partnerships as the way forward in our societies. All of us must recognize the privilege that we each have. It’s even a privilege for me to be able to speak to you on this show. I have opportunities to use this platform to also bring voices to you that you might not hear as often and ideas and thoughts to carry forward in a different way. 

Change starts with us getting to know each other across international geographic boundaries and different ethnic backgrounds and boundaries. As we get to know one another and have conversations, such as what Stuart and I had, we’re going to see some major changes as we walk together in a different direction. I want to thank you as my audience for reading. I want to leave you with a biblical words of wisdom. They come from Luke the 12th chapter, verse 48 and it says, “For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required, and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.” 

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Did you know that teams do the bulk of the work in successful organizations? For this reason, it’s very important to build and develop your teams. First, you might want to know where you are in the process. I invite you to take the complimentary team assessment to identify your current strengths and also your learning opportunities in launching and developing high-performance teams that get dynamic organizational results. Go to my website, www.Transleadership.com. On the home page, there’s a brown bar that says Take the High Performance Team Assessment. You’ll find it under the running photographs. Click it and get your results. 

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For More information go to wkkf.org or DayofRacialHealing.org

Lewis Howard Latimer, a Black man, is recognized as the inventor of several remarkable inventions, the most famous of which is the carbon light bulb filament. In addition to his own inventions and patents, he worked with and helped to create the success of other amazing inventors such as Alexander Graham Bell and Thomas Edison. Latimer also installed the first electric plants in Philadelphia, New York, and Montreal. Listen to this podcast and to Dr. Karen acknowledge and celebrate this innovative inventor and leader.

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