S01E01 EPISODE TRANSCIPT
Yellow Edge: Please note that this episode references court proceedings involving minors who have experienced sexual assault or violence.
Yellow Edge, in association with the Winston Churchill Trust, proudly presents the Wayfinder podcast. In this series, we ask high-performing individuals, how they plotted the path to success. Our guests are all Churchill fellows having been provided the opportunity by the Churchill Trust to research their chosen field.
Internationally. The Wayfinder explores the often winding paths of how these fellows came to their professions and catalogues the trials and tribulations faced along the way. Now your host, Scarlet Bennett.
Scarlet Bennett: Hello, and welcome to the Wayfinder podcast. My name is Scarlet Bennett and I have Julie Morrison with me today. Julie is the Victim's Engagement Coordinator in the Office of Public Prosecutions in Victoria. Welcome Julie.
Julie Morrison: Thank you Scarlet, it's lovely to meet you.
Scarlet Bennett: Delighted. So tell us a little bit about your role here, Julie.
Julie Morrison: Alright. So I work at the Office of Public Prosecutions in Victoria and our role is to prosecute serious crime on behalf of the State of Victoria. So central to all the work we do is a focus on victims. Everything we do with victims, we want to make sure that we recognise the trauma that they've been through and still going through.
And we want to make sure that everything we do. Modifies that trauma or doesn't exacerbate it, so it's about creating an environment where they feel safe and they feel empowered to tell their story. So my role as the Victim's Engagement Coordinator is to work on a number of projects where we can provide that environment.
Things like our website, how it looks access to information, pamphlets, brochures, things like that. And of course, now importantly, our court dog program.
Scarlet Bennett: Which are really looking forward to hearing more about, that's fantastic. What's the biggest challenge you face in the work you do here?
Julie Morrison: Yeah, not being able to help everybody.
Unfortunately, there's a lot of crime out there and there's a lot of matters before the courts at the moment. Certainly the request for, to have the support of a dog, is absolutely phenomenal. And we just can't keep up with the requests. I think that the biggest challenge is not being able to help everybody in the way that we want to be able to help them.
And of course, you know, we can't fix the past. We can't fix the problems that are brought people here. But if we can make the experience, the court experience, a little bit easier. Then that's what we're trying to do.
Scarlet Bennett: That's fantastic. And you mentioned the court dog program. Would you like to tell us a little bit about?
Julie Morrison: Alright, so outside of work, I'm pretty much a dog person through and through.
I spend a lot of my time with my dogs and doing stuff with my dogs. And in the past, I've worked with my dogs is as therapy dogs. So I've seen firsthand the benefit that dogs can bring to someone in a, in a hospital setting or in a school setting. When I started here at the OPP I began to wonder if there was perhaps a role for dogs to support victims as they went to court to tell their story.
And I started my research and I found that there was nothing happening in Australia, but in America court dog programs have been going since 2004. So that set my challenge. I thought, well, if they can do it there, we can do it here. And I guess the rest they say is history.
So our court dog program that we run today, we have a dog that works with us full-time and her role is to accompany people as they give evidence in court settings, either in committals or trials or pleas or sentence hearings or appeals.
And what the dog does is basically just helps to put someone in a, in a bit of head space, in a calmer, more relaxed state so that they can tell their story. And part of what we do is about trying to facilitate justice. So if we can help people tell their story, well, that's a good thing. And if we can help people to feel more relaxed as they do it, then that's also a good thing.
Scarlet Bennett: That's fantastic. And tell us a little about you, about your dogs. You mentioned you've got a, a full-time dog working here at the moment?
Julie Morrison: Yeah, Lucy started with us in May 2019. And towards the end of 2019-- and I collect stats on all the work that we do-- I worked out that nearly 40% of all requests to have Lucy support someone I couldn't accommodate, just because of the sheer volume.
So obviously demand was a lot higher than the supply of one dog. And there's only so much one dog can do, and unfortunately, a lot of those requests were from children. Cause as you can imagine, a lot of children are very interested to have the support of a dog. So in 2020, we started working with Child Witness Services.
Who's another department within the Department of Justice and Community Safety. We also started looking about the possibility of placing the dog with them to help, predominantly with children, and fast forward to the end of 2020, and after a four month delay because of COVID. We got our second dog, Kiki. Kiki is now placed with child witness services.
And in fact, both dogs are going to be here in the office today, working on different cases. It should be pandemonium at lunchtime because they just love each other!
Scarlet Bennett: And how do you source the dogs? How do you find the right dog for this program?
Julie Morrison: So we're really, really lucky in that we have an excellent association with Assistance Dogs of Australia, a company based out of Sydney.
A lot of people would already be familiar with their work that they do in providing dogs to assist with mobility assistance. But they also, which a lot of people may not know. Train dogs to work with children with autism and veterans with PTSD as well. But they have also placed a few dogs in schools and educational institutions to support students in high anxiety times.
So when we approached them about the possibility of having a dog to be placed in the court environment-- they welcomed the opportunity with open arms, which was absolutely wonderful. So we have a great relationship with them. What's really exciting about Kiki and Lucy though, is that they completed their training as part of the Pups in Prison Program at the South East Queensland Correctional Facility.
So they came up with-- which is pretty amazing, and one of the highlights I think of my career-- was actually going to that prison and meeting the prisoner that trained both Lucy and Kiki. And she's the most wonderful lady. So we're really, really proud of our association, both of us Assistance Dogs of Australia and Southeast Queensland Correctional Facility.
We think it's a wonderful example of restorative justice that we have. The victims are not victims. We have prisoners training dogs to support victims of crime. And it's interesting when I tell that story to a lot of the people that Lucy works with providing support here, they're actually really touched by it and they take that on really positively, and think that that again is a wonderful example of what we can be doing.
Scarlet Bennett: So tell us a little bit about the process. Like if we were to imagine a typical scenario in which Lucy or Kiki might work, what would they do? Sort of start, start to finish in terms of supporting someone?
Julie Morrison: Okay. Well, I might just start with a little bit of the science as to how it works.
So anyone who's got a pet will know how great pets make us feel, and how great our animals make us feel. But when you're trying to do something in a formal setting, you really want to be a bit evidence-based. So the studies have shown categorically over a long time now that when we're in the presence of a calm and relaxed dog-- and I'll focus on dogs because that's what we're doing at the moment-- obviously they, the dogs actually have a chemical effect on our system.
So with the presence of a calm, relaxed dog, there's actually an increase in the hormone called oxytocin in our bloodstream. And oxytocin is that great hormone that tends to counter the effects of the stress hormone, which is cortisol. So cortisol is that hormone that makes your heart race and your palms, sweat, and, you know, you'd get the ability to do flip flops and all that.
But when the oxytocin's in your system, it actually reduces the effects of cortisol. So there's actually a really scientific reason why we feel better when we're just looking at a calm relaxed pup. And I do emphasize calm and relaxed because if you've got a dog that's running circles around you, you're probably not likely to be that calm or relaxed, but there's just something about the presence of that sleeping dog.
So we know that there's a scientific reason why we feel better when we've got a calm, relaxed. dog. But the other benefit that the oxytocin has on our system, it means that once that cortisol is removed or reduced, it actually means we can think more clearly and recall facts more easily. So for us in the criminal justice system, this is really important because we want people to think more clearly.
We want to help people tell their story. The dogs are not only making people feel better and making their stress levels go down, but it actually helps them to tell their story. That's the importance of having the dogs, we believe, in this setting.
When the dogs are working for us-- a typical day for Lucy or Kiki will be that she'll meet the witness that she's working with, they'll interact in the waiting room. As we've just done, and I think you just saw Scarlet, Lucy actually has been trained to hand out her business cards, obviously not with the paws… she does it so well-- she just carries it in her mouth and, and presents it to the person, which is a really nice ice breaker.
And the card just has a little bit about Lucy and who she is and what she does. So if it's an adult that we're working with typically they might sit on the floor or just sit on their chair with Lucy at their feet. And they will pat it now with children because of course, children love to play games.
The dogs are taught to do a lot of games and fun things. So Lucy can play cards. She can read a book, she can play Skittles, she can [00:10:00] play hide and seek and go fetch and all those other really fun things so that it really takes that, that stress out of the waiting, which is a lot of people tell us it's the worst part of the experience.
And sometimes people can be waiting for hours. Before they go in to tell their story, someone has to get through all that waiting time. And then there's lots of quiet times as well. And we have Lucy's brush so that people can just brush her, because that grooming that brushing is a really calming activity too.
But when it's time to give evidence, then what we do is we just place the dogs mat in. Most of our people will choose to give evidence from a remote witness facility, so it means they're not going into a courtroom and seeing the accused. So here in Australia, people can elect to give their evidence that way.
So the dog has its mat just placed by the feet of the witness. The dogs are also trained to for body pressure. So they are lie with their backs on people's feet. I've had people say to me that they take their shoes off so they can feel Lucy through their feet. And then basically the dog goes to sleep and that's pretty much what happens.
As someone's giving evidence and telling their story because we need the dogs to be really, really calm and relaxed because when they're doing their job, that's really important that then they don't be a distraction to what's going on. You know, we don't want the dogs doing cute things running around the room.
Cause clearly that would not help the justice process. So their job is just to lie there and be relaxed and very, very calm. Lucy is a bit of a chronic snorer. So we work on that and occasionally we'll have a judge say, “oh, I can hear Lucy snoring again.” So some of the judges know us really well by now.
But that's something we work with. And it's funny because I have a lot of the victims, all the witnesses say to me, they actually find that really calming and grounding. Cause it's just like something really normal in a totally abnormal setting. So we've learnt to love the snoring as she goes on.
Although the other day she did have a bit of a puppy dream and the legs were starting to vocalise a little bit more. But that was all good. So yeah Lucy will do that in the remote witness rooms, but she also has-- when we've got approval and I should point out too-- that in order to have the dogs support someone, as they're giving evidence, it's always subject to the approval of the courts.
So we always send up a request to the magistrate or the judge, but I'm pretty pleased to say that in about 350 applications, we've only had five knock backs. So the uptake from the court and support from the court has really been really encouraging and really phenomenal.
Scarlet Bennett: That's very impressive.
Julie Morrison: Really impressive.
Yeah. So the dogs will do this, provide that support. Lucy also has now been into the courtroom onto the witness stand on a number of occasions. Sometimes people will say, no, I don't want to give my evidence remotely. I actually want to go to court and see the accused. And in those occasions, we asked for permission for Lucy to go on the witness stand, which is a whole new ballgame, but she handles it very, very well.
Scarlet Bennett: You must need a very special temperament in a dog to be able to do this.
Julie Morrison: Yes, so Assistance Dogs of Australia have breeding programs, which are designed to breed dogs and train dogs, which are highly sociable.
Obviously love people, easily trained, and also have a very low level of energy because we don't want that high level of energy of a dog saying, ‘what are we doing now?’ What are we doing now?’ Those dogs can be quite good for children with autism and they were very active, but when schools get dogs that had that really relaxed, chilled out attitude, then they say, okay, this could be a really good dog for this work. And that's the great thing about the training program is now there's basically four careers that the dogs can go into.
So just because they may not be suited to one avenue of work, it could well be that they're suited to another avenue of work.
Scarlet Bennett: That's fascinating. So it's a bit like I'm fit to roll in humans.
Julie Morrison: Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, kind of the dogs choose their own careers based on, on how they respond and how they react.
Scarlet Bennett: And tell me a little bit about the impact you've had it running for a little while now. You're getting great take-up and high demand. What are you seeing in terms of how, you know, how people are experiencing that support?
Julie Morrison: I think, well, this is where we come back now to some anecdotal data and I would love one day to do sort of some formal studies on this, but it's a really hard area to do that at the moment.
So the feedback that we're getting from people that have experienced going to court with having Lucy there is sort of really phenomenal. They report things like, you know, ‘she just made me smile’ or ‘she made me laugh at a time when I couldn't find anything to laugh or smile at.’
I've had solicitors say to me that they expected their witness to take a long time to give their evidence because they were so fragile, ‘but I couldn't believe how quickly they got through the evidence when they had Lucy.’ So the anecdotal evidence is very much that people are able to tell their story.
They're able to take fewer breaks as they're telling their story, which is good for them and good for the courts. You know, cost a lot of money to run a trial. And if we can help show them that the time of a trial, that's another sort of side benefit. But I think the main thing is that people are reporting on how Lucy made them feel that on the day.
I had one girl, she was a sexual assault case, and she was coming to give evidence. And she said to me afterwards, ‘I feel special because I've got a dog.’ And I thought if we can make somebody feel special. And that was probably one of the worst days of their life, that is something quite considerable.
The other thing we're finding too, is that people are staying engaged in illegal process for a bit longer than they might otherwise have been. One of our very first cases. We had a girl that decided on the weekend, she was not going to get, go ahead with her evidence. She just could not put herself through the court system one more time.
And she told her informant on the weekend that that was it. She just couldn't go. And the case, this case in particular did rest heavily on the evidence of this one lady. When the informant told her, she said she heard that the OPP have a dog. ‘Now, would you like to see if you can have the dog?’
And the girl said, ‘oh, come if I've got a dog’ and sure enough she did. And the informant told me later, she said, I have no doubt that the case would not have gone the way it had. If that girl hadn't come and give her evidence. I've had other examples of people saying that they were going to disengage, but have stayed because of the dog.
So, you know, that's a good thing too. If we can encourage people to tell their story, then that might help them in their healing process as well.
Scarlet Bennett: So you're getting, you're seeing evidence that people are perhaps giving, continuing on with cases where they are the might, while otherwise might not. They're feeling supported through the process.
It's lightening the burden, making something that could otherwise be quite a traumatic experience, more positive, more constructive, more healing in a way.
Julie Morrison: And yes, and that's absolutely right. And one of the things that I'm really interested in as well is the long-term effects this might have on people. If we've helped them get through this experience in a supportive way and through the presence of the dog, when they look back on this, what will their memories be of it? And I've got a couple of little examples and I guess where we're still a little bit young, and we've only been doing this for a couple of years. One of the things that Lucy explains how she hands out her business card. I had a case we'd been working with the child and Lucy had given her business card to the child. We got through the case. That was all fine, but the child came in a few months later for the plea hearing. I think it was. And she told me, I think her mother told me, how she still has Lucy's card and it's propped up on her bedside table. She sees it first thing in the morning and last thing at night and how that helps her.
Another thing Lucy does is she, she gives out these little rubber wristbands. It's says “You’re Pawsome!” And again, the children love them. Cause they're a nice, tangible thing. We were working with this other girl one day. And I thought we hadn't actually really got through to her very, and that happens sometimes. Sometimes you think, well, did I give me actually help? And you know, there's a bit of an unknown sometimes, but this girl I thought, oh, I don't know if we really made a difference. A few months later, the mother rang her social worker. And to say that she, the daughter got up in tears that morning because her 'Pawsome' wristband had broken. And do you think it would be possible that she could have another one from Lucy? So clearly that was a case of we did make a difference and this, this anchor of having the wristband was helping her in her recovery.
So if we can change the narrative of the experience so that when maybe particularly children look back and what they're remembering is the fun things they did with Lucy, or, you know, playing cards with Lucy or the wristband or the card, maybe just, maybe that might help them in their long-term recovery.
Scarlet Bennett: And we'll come back to that because it sounds like there's some really interesting stories around short-term impact, as well as long-term impact-- perhaps you know, other jurisdictions might be able to speak to that if they've got older programs. But I just wanted to touch on before we get to that, you mentioned the Churchill Trust. And I noticed that in 2018, you received a fellowship from the Churchill Trust to travel overseas. And I'm wondering, you know, what difference that made to you?
Julie Morrison: Oh, it made all the difference in the world and I'm indebted to the Winston Churchill Memorial Trust for the opportunity and the trust in me that I could make something of this.
I had been working on a pilot program with the dogs before that, but I just kept feeling that I was sort of running into roadblocks. Because nobody had done it here in Australia and they were doing it over there, so I needed to be there to see it. So the Churchill gave me two things, one on a personal level. It just, it changed me completely. I think it really encouraged me to be more of a risk taker. And to trust myself, which was, I think something we all need reminding of, but it also gave me exposure to how they're running these programs in the States and in Canada to see it firsthand and meet the dogs firsthand to see the work that they're doing.
And it really broadened my scope because initially I thought, okay, court dogs. Okay. Yeah, we work in court. We help people tell their story. When I got to America and Canada, I found out—and I kept a log of everything that I saw-- I heard of dogs working in 26 different ways across the justice system to help people.
You know, even some of the dogs are placed with police departments and would go to the scene of a crime. And so that same dog would be with, could be with the victim or a family from the scene of a crime. Right through the court and the same dog might be working with a family for years, which is just amazing. They also work their dogs they're in crisis response, which is an area that I'm really interested in getting involved in. In fact, I've just done a symposium with the Court Dogs Foundation, learning how we could potentially deploy dogs in a crisis in a, in a mass shooting or a terrorist activity. Now, fortunately, we don't have the number of those incidents here that they do in the States. As I said to me in the States, mass shootings aren't a matter of if, but when-- you know, again, that they're happening all the time.
So certainly crisis response is something that I'm keen to explore here. So, yeah, so that exposure to the work that the dogs are doing, and also the network of handlers in America. And in fact two for the founders of the program Ellen Stephens and Celeste Walsen have become very very firm friends and we liaise and work very closely together. And they're really proud of the work that I've done here in, in getting the Australian scene up and running.
Scarlet Bennett: And it sounds like the trip really opened your eyes to the breadth of possibility of how the dogs could impact.
Julie Morrison: Absolutely. Absolutely.
And, and the fact that, you know, always be open and even since coming home, I've worked with Lucy and the way that I hadn't even seen in America. So, you know, it's just, there's tremendous scope.
Scarlet Bennett: And what are the real growth opportunities, you know, given where you're at at the moment, where are you hoping to take things next?
Julie Morrison: Yeah. Okay. So two fold: to continue to help more state jurisdictions get up programs. The other thing that I want to really expand on, as I touched on before, is the other ways in which the dogs can work.
And crisis response to me is, is very much an area where I'd like to look at. The other is that I would very much like to work with the police-- I haven't told them this yet-- I told a couple of them. To get the dogs involved at the initial stages where people are making their initial statements and giving their evidence, because this is something that the dogs do a lot in America and they call that phase of the forensic evidence of the ‘forensic interview.’
Now oddly enough, despite COVID, one of the things that Lucy did in the middle of COVID last year was actually go down and support a family of young children when they came in to give their first statement after alleged sexual assault. And it was just, it was just phenomenal. I'm one of the little boys that we supported; the detective told me that he had totally shut down that he wasn't talking.
She saw that I had finished with one of the other children said, oh, do you think we could have Lucy now? And I said, ‘sure.’ So I gave this little boy who was only five, but gave him Lucy's lead. And I said, take her into where you're sitting. Giving the lead is a really important part of this process because it's giving someone some control and empowering to do something.
And, you know, victims are victims because they've lost control at some point of time. So giving them some control is to me, a really strategic thing. So it's a little boy takes the lead and we put Lucy's mat down and I tell Lucy to lie down. Then I leave the room about five or 10 minutes later when the detective came out, she said, I wouldn't have believed that if I hadn't seen that, she said I got a full disclosure from this boy a minute after you left.
Scarlet Bennett: That's incredible.
Julie Morrison: She said ‘I just have to say it was the dog cause I couldn't get through.’ So I'm hoping that, you know, stories like that, we might be able to get, you know, dogs involved in that phase of the process to say, yeah, I'm always looking for opportunities of expanding and doing more and more, but of course I need more dogs and need more people to try more dogs.
So, and then one of the other things I'd love to do too, is you know, maybe start working with one of our prison facilities down here in between. Just have a training program, which would be pretty amazing.
Scarlet Bennett: Sounds like the sky's the limit, Julie.
So in terms of your personal journey, this must have been an enormous learning curve for you.
You know, we had a little bit of a chat earlier, and you were telling me about your own experiences and the training you do with your dogs, but still, this is on a whole new scale, isn't it?
Julie Morrison: Solicitor for Public Prosecutions, at the time when we first started the program the honourable John Cain— that Justice Cain, he introduced me one day at a barrister's conference. And he said, ‘Julie's managed to do what the rest of us only dream about— she's brought her hobby to work!’ which is kind of true. I feel very, very lucky to have the job that I have, but certainly by far and away, the biggest challenge on a personal level was the fact that I'm not a legal-- my background is I'm a teacher and I spent a lot of time in human resources -- So when I realised what I wanted to do, I wanted to change that. Pretty fundamental in the criminal justice system. And I wasn't a lawyer, I wasn't a legal professional and you know, the, the legal profession isn't always known for its innovation and willingness to change. That's changing a lot. The culture certainly is changing.
But I knew that that was going to be difficult for me. And that was a little bit daunting at times. Cause I used to say to myself, how am I going to do this? You know, why should they believe me? Why should they take it from me? That this is a good idea when it's going to work.
Scarlet Bennett: What was the biggest challenge for you on a personal level? Was it that confidence thing about feeling like it was a bit of an outsider in the profession?
Julie Morrison: Being an outsider and taking the risk and knowing that it, I was really putting myself on the line that, you know, if something happened. That was going to be the end of this program and probably to the end of my credibility too.
So it was, it was taking that risk. It was having the confidence to speak up and speak up in a world that I didn't have a lot of experience with. I'd only been at the OPP for about 10 months before I started the pilot program. So I started it pretty quickly. But look, I just have to, to thank over and over again, the team here at the OPP, the solicitors just embrace this.
And I found out very quickly that I wasn't the only person who was mad about dogs around the office. A little side story to all this is the staff just love this program and just love the dog so much. We've actually started-- we started a couple of years ago, bring your dog to work day. Because staff just wanted to have more doggy fixes!
Scarlet Bennett: That must be a very interesting time in the office
Julie Morrison: It is, well we haven't had unfortunately for 12 months, but now there's rules associated with that. We have one dog per floor. So the staff are fantastic, the management team at the time when we started the program as I mentioned Justice Cain, who's now our State Coroner and Justice Champion, who was Director at the time, is now Supreme Court Judge. [Who are] the most wonderful advocates of the program and gave me so much encouragement and confidence and support. And I just knew that I could go to any of them to talk to about any issues. And I really learned, I think, to use the support of other people. I mean, you know, people often say are, you know, calling me or ask me, I'm happy to help.
And quite often, you know [I thought] I don't need your help. I'll do it on my own. And, but I finally learned that. People do want to help. And it's a good idea to draw upon that network when you're trying to do something major. So you know, we're here today, where we are because of the support of those sorts of people and I'm forever indebted to them.
Scarlet Bennett: You know, one of our key areas of focus in this series is 'wayfinding' and you going to how people find their way through difficult situations. And it seems like you've had a number of them sort of from trailblazing in this country on introducing dogs, but also the personal journey. Building your confidence and taking the risk and so on what is there, what would you say to someone who might be listening? Who's going through a really difficult time at the moment and can't see that light at the end of the tunnel quite yet.
Julie Morrison: So, okay. So the first thing that I do, and as I said, every step of the way, this program has thrown me another challenge. But it's an interesting process because I say to myself, I let myself panic initially and say, I have no idea how I'm going to solve this problem.
So I'll allow myself the time to just, I don't know-- do whatever it is I need to do. And then I'll think back and I'll think, okay, what was the last problem I had? Okay. We got around that. How do we get around that? So I just try and apply those same skills in that thought process to the next problem, because. If you can solve one problem, you can probably solve a second problem. And I think, reminding yourself of the problems that you have overcome, and the things that you have done. Just kind of remind you that you can do it. So just because you don't know how to do something doesn't mean that you can't do it.
And I think that's sort of been what I've sort of lived by, to say that I don't know how to do it now, but I've worked at these other problems-- there's gotta be a way around this. So I then just take my time and some of my techniques, I like to work on my own initially to solve the problem. To gather data,, research read, and then I'll start talking to people and running ideas by, and I've always got a couple of ideas on the go at any one time, but I think it's allowing yourself that moment of, 'ah! I can't do this' to then say, ‘okay, I've done other things in the past. I know I can do that. I'll work my way through this.’
Scarlet Bennett: Is there anything that you would like to say that you know, that I've missed it, that's an essence in your story that you'd like to share?
Julie Morrison: I might just finish with one of my favourite stories.
Scarlet Bennett: Please do, we'd love to hear an anecdote.
Julie Morrison: So it was again with the child-- and we do a lot of work with adults too, but this, this child's story does stand out.
Beautiful little boy whose only 6. And it was giving evidence and the judge in his matter, as a lot of the judges do when they're working with children will come down to meet the children first, just so that, you know, it's a bit, it's a real face, not just someone on the screen, it's less intimidating. So they come with their robes or wigs, it's just, they just come down and I had been in the waiting room with this gorgeous little boy. And Lucy had been at his feet. Anyway. We heard that the judge had arrived at the front door, and the front waiting room. So I gave the boy the lead and he's walking down the hall and, you know, Lucy is nearly the size of him because it was a wee little thing.
And the boy gets down to, to the judge and he introduces himself and says, this is Lucy. And the judge says to the boy, “what's the best thing about Lucy?” And he says, “she listens to me.” And it was totally unscripted and totally lovely. And yeah, just for lots and lots of smiles.
Scarlet Bennett: That's really wonderful and a beautiful note to end on.
Julie Morrison, thank you very much indeed for your time today. And if you're listening and you're interested in following up, just to reminder, Julia is the Victim's Engagement Coordinator in the Office of Public Prosecutions in Victoria.
Julie Morrison: Thanks, Scarlet
Scarlet Bennett: Thanks, Julie.
Yellow Edge: Thank you for listening to the Wayfinder podcast. For more information on Yellow Edge and our services, including professional development, coaching, strategic support, mediation and venue, hire visit yellowedge.com.au.
For more information on the Winston Churchill Trust, visit churchilltrust.com.au.
