In her first interview since the release of the NACC’s report into Robodebt, Deputy Commissioner Kylie Kilgour joins us to unpack her findings and what it all means for the public service. This is a rare chance to go beyond the written report with candid reflections on the conditions that led to one of most significant failures of public administration in Australia, and the complexities of the accountability process. 

In this episode, we cover:

• the four key contributing factors to serious corrupt conduct: ignorance of the law, failure to work with lawyers, rushed timelines and senior pressure  
• why being “polite and collegiate” can fail - and the risks of not making concerns unmistakably clear
• how austerity, budget cycles and unrealistic deadlines distort judgement and behaviour
• the role of toxic culture, including bullying, fear of speaking up, and the myth of untouchable senior leaders
• the difference between serious maladministration and corrupt conduct - and why some high-profile referrals did not meet the legal threshold for corrupt conduct
• what Robodebt reveals about missed opportunities to intervene - and the consequences of not listening

The NACC's Guide to Ethical Decision-Making: https://www.nacc.gov.au/research-and-guides#ethical-decision-making-a-guide

Operation Myrtleford Report: https://www.nacc.gov.au/investigation-reports-and-case-studies#operation-myrtleford

Get in touch with the NACC: https://www.nacc.gov.au/about-nacc/contact-us

Further NACC resources: 

• What is corrupt conduct?
• What is serious or systemic corrupt conduct?
• Voluntary referrals: a guide

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

On 11 March, the National Anti-Corruption Commission released its findings on Robodebt. It found that two of the six referred public servants engaged in serious corrupt conduct, and four did not. 

Caroline, Alison and Danielle discuss three things: the "low level" code of conduct failures that created the toxic soil in which corrupt conduct could grow; the detail of the NACC's findings on the Robodebt Six; and the harder, unresolved question of whether individual accountability processes can ever be adequate for system failure with Robodebt's scale of human harm.

Referenced in this episode:

• Jenny Miller, The Saturday Paper https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/politics/2026/03/21/robodebt-six-they-continue-i-am-left-with-urn-containing-the-ashes-my
• Rick Morton, Cut Through podcast (Crikey) https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/cut-through/id1616953809?i=1000756172293 
• NACC, findings on Robodebt referrals, 11 March 2025 https://www.nacc.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2026-03/Operation%20Myrtleford%20Investigation%20Report.pdf 
• Commissioner Holmes, Royal Commission into the Robodebt Scheme — sealed section https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Tabled_Documents/15488

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

In our last episode on Mad Cow Disease, we take our final lessons from the public servicing of this massive health, agricultural and economic crisis. With the benefit of hindsight, we weigh the significant market interventions and public perception against actual transmission data. 

In this episode:

• What decision making looks like under radical uncertainty, where its government's job to keep things running.
• The massive supply chain repercussions of the beef ban, and how much  expertise policymakers actually need when making interventions.
• Whether the public has a realistic understanding of what governments can achieve in a crisis and whether governments can still have an honest conversation about trade offs for the public good.
• Why sensing the public mood is not “political”, but a critical source of information about whether policy is working or failing.
• Whether more information and transparency actually build confidence in a democratised media environment, including social media and large language models.
• Where actual transmission ended up, and how it compares with other risk calculations and personal mitigations. 
• What all of this means for modern public servants operating in systems where uncertainty is the norm, not the exception.

Insiders, Chris Bowen - Energy Minister (22/3/2026)https://iview.abc.net.au/show/insiders?utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared

The Rest Is History podcast - Revolution In Iran | Fall of the Shah (Part 1) https://therestishistory.com/episodes/fall-of-the-shah-part-1

Fooled by Randomness by Nassim Nicholas Talebhttps://www.penguin.com.au/books/fooled-by-randomness-9780141031484

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

It’s March 1996 and the UK Government announces that mad cow disease has been linked to human cases. Within days beef consumption falls by half, public confidence is non-existent, and ministers begin meeting in chaotic quasi-cabinet groups sometimes twice a day.

In this episode we discuss:

• How to brief best in the chaos of things changing by the hour 
• Whether policy should change when the risk hasn't changed, but risk perception has. 
• The policy process where decisions are not weighed but whittled down by what’s acceptable to industry and public 
• Why what seemed like an extreme policy response on Monday suddenly felt inadequate by Thursday
• Whether scenario planning is useful when public sentiment in unpredictable and irrational
• Why in a crisis it is better to stop complaining about constantly changing decisions and simply focus on being useful
• How the EU's hardline and indefinite export ban politically wedged the UK
• The difficulty of restoring public confidence when there is no clear wrongdoing to find and fix, and the crisis is largely the product of uncertainty
• The realities of how much the contemporary populace can realistically sustain engagement with multiple complex risks at once

New Species of Trouble by Kai Erikson
https://www.amazon.com.au/New-Species-Trouble-Experience-Disasters/dp/0393313190 

Any Ordinary Day - Leigh Sales 
https://www.penguin.com.au/books/any-ordinary-day-9781760893637

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Few people come to policy officer positions with specific policy training. They might be teachers, lawyers, front-line workers or subject-matter experts. Who teaches us how to do policy work, and what policy actually is? Enter Salli Cohen’s brilliant new book, 'Rollercoaster: How to be a bloody good policy officer.'

In this episode we catch up with Salli about:

• Her one-word definition of policy.
• What it takes to be a genuinely good policy officer, beyond technical competence.
• The difference between evidence-based and evidence-informed. 
• Why curiosity, empathy and humility are not ‘soft’ skills but core capabilities.
• The importance of an orientation to serving the community.
• Keeping your antennae up to context, politics and implementation realities.
• The importance of letting people say their bit. 
• Speaking up when things are going pear-shaped.
• Salli’s hopes for the next generation of policy professionals.

Purchase Salli's book 'Rollercoaster: How to be a bloody good policy officer' officer here: https://www.thepolicyroom.com/product/Rollercoaster  

Next week we return with Part 3 of our Mad Cow Disease series. 

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Part 2 of 4 on Mad Cow Disease: In this episode,  the cracks in enforcement are showing, panic is slowly boiling, and the science is catching up. 

What we cover: 

• The panic spike when BSE appears in domestic cats
• The danger of stopping at the legislation, without interrogating whether industry is complying and how you would know.
• The reassurance cycle – shock, anxiety, reassurance, repeat, and whether the Government could or should have said more.   
• The political landscape of EU export pressure, an era of deregulation, and expensive subsidies
• From variable, localised enforcement to a centralised Meat Hygiene Service. 
• Where we end up by late 1995 – no human cases yet, but the MHS has a horrifying revelation that undermines trust in the controls.  

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

We kick off a new series on 'Mad Cow Disease', or Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE), and what it teaches us about governing when the science is uncertain, the consequences are enormous, but the risks are very remote.

• Why BSE became a lasting symbol of government failure and secrecy, even though major inquiries later found decisions were largely science led.  
• Where to draw the line for regulatory settings with big market consequences. 
• Who really decides when portfolios collide, and who pays. 
• Why Pedigree pet food had a surprising influence on the risk ‘appetite’
• Whether there is the authorising environment to act beyond the scientific advice.
• Spoiler alert: “over reacting” and “under reacting” are not opposites, they overlap. 

The brilliant podcast, ‘The Cows are Mad’ by BBC.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001rrhy/episodes/player

The West Wing: Season 3, episode 9 (featuring Mad Cow disease).

https://youtu.be/ouBr3F2qWMI?si=uecMkFaQFnMGVvyL&t=220

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

We want to make lasting and meaningful change, but how do we get there? In this special episode Caroline interviews Frances Foster-Thorpe and Jason Tabarias about their insights into the skills and frameworks needed to tackle large, complex and ambitious reform.

We cover: 

• Biting off what you can chew by picking two of three factors: volume, cost, quality
• Examples of big Australian reforms that did and didn't hit the mark
• Lining up stakeholder expectations, the authorising environment, and operational capability
• Stretching the political window of opportunity by looking up and out
• Why sequencing can be a more productive conversation than prioritisation
• Proposals that are needs or community-led, evidence based and implementation-ready 
• Making cross-system collaboration work: everyone is a colleague, everyone has valuable knowledge, and everyone is responsible for doing as much as we can 
• Tips for system diplomats and working with system diplomats

Mark Moore's strategic triangle 

The Three Horizons Framework

Geoff Mulgan 'The Art of Public Strategy'

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Buy a sports car or start a podcast. It all could have gone the way of a new hobby, with audio kit languishing in a drawer. Instead, this podcast has become a study and celebration of the tricky craft of public service, and it's a source of pure joy for us. 

Reflecting on three years of TWT: 

• Humble and haphazard beginnings
• What’s changed since the Robodebt Royal Commission 
• Our favourite interviews, scandals, episodes
• Lifting the veil on moments of chaos
• Our favourite moments with listeners (and do we need an identifier for the TWT listener cohort?)
• Learnings on the journey and things we’ve changed our minds on

And that’s a wrap for 2025. Till next year!

Alison listing all the places we’ve “recorded” sounds remarkably like Shaggy… https://youtu.be/p4qqOHllgps?si=uEHlcD6JMW9Jabng 

‘Abundance: How We Build a Better Future’ by Ezra Klein, Derek Thompson: https://www.allenandunwin.com/browse/book/Ezra-Klein,-Derek-Thompson-Abundance-9781805226055

Nigella Lawson reading ‘How to eat’ https://www.audible.com.au/pd/How-to-Eat-The-Pleasures-and-Principles-of-Good-Food-Audiobook/1473567351

Colin Firth’s indecent gravel: https://www.amazon.com/The-End-of-Affair-Graham-Greene-audiobook/dp/B0081293SO 

Anything narrated by Richard Roxburgh https://www.audible.com.au/search?searchNarrator=Richard+Roxburgh&ref_pageloadid=not_applicable&pf_rd_p=771c6463-05d7-4981-9b47-920dc34a70f1&pf_rd_r=C0M8084B840VVEERZRJ5&plink=IArL51tFosgDIpzy&pageLoadId=FlLq75E1cuzEn4oS&creativeId=adcc4fec-4d90-49d1-997e-8be21d68ce7f&ref=a_search_c3_lNarrator_1_2_1

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

In this Christmas special, Caroline, Alison and Danielle unwrap the public service’s most gear-grinding buzzwords, what they’re supposed to mean and what they have now quietly become. With words crowdsourced from the fine listeners of TWT, we talk:

• Big serious words and how their technical meanings have drifted
• The corporate visitors who arrived and never left
• Words that hide fear or indecision 
• How co-design can be a handbrake, and why government struggles to set boundaries on what is genuinely up for shaping.
• Word of the year: nature-positive 

The brilliant book that Alison refers to is ‘The Right Kind of Wrong’ by Amy Edmondson: https://www.dymocks.com.au/right-kind-of-wrong-by-amy-edmondson-9781847943781

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!