Few people come to policy officer positions with specific policy training. They might be teachers, lawyers, front-line workers or subject-matter experts. Who teaches us how to do policy work, and what policy actually is? Enter Salli Cohen’s brilliant new book, 'Rollercoaster: How to be a bloody good policy officer.'

In this episode we catch up with Salli about:

• Her one-word definition of policy.
• What it takes to be a genuinely good policy officer, beyond technical competence.
• The difference between evidence-based and evidence-informed. 
• Why curiosity, empathy and humility are not ‘soft’ skills but core capabilities.
• The importance of an orientation to serving the community.
• Keeping your antennae up to context, politics and implementation realities.
• The importance of letting people say their bit. 
• Speaking up when things are going pear-shaped.
• Salli’s hopes for the next generation of policy professionals.

Purchase Salli's book 'Rollercoaster: How to be a bloody good policy officer' officer here: https://www.thepolicyroom.com/product/Rollercoaster  

Next week we return with Part 3 of our Mad Cow Disease series. 

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

Part 2 of 4 on Mad Cow Disease: In this episode,  the cracks in enforcement are showing, panic is slowly boiling, and the science is catching up. 

What we cover: 

• The panic spike when BSE appears in domestic cats
• The danger of stopping at the legislation, without interrogating whether industry is complying and how you would know.
• The reassurance cycle – shock, anxiety, reassurance, repeat, and whether the Government could or should have said more.   
• The political landscape of EU export pressure, an era of deregulation, and expensive subsidies
• From variable, localised enforcement to a centralised Meat Hygiene Service. 
• Where we end up by late 1995 – no human cases yet, but the MHS has a horrifying revelation that undermines trust in the controls.  

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

We kick off a new series on 'Mad Cow Disease', or Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE), and what it teaches us about governing when the science is uncertain, the consequences are enormous, but the risks are very remote.

• Why BSE became a lasting symbol of government failure and secrecy, even though major inquiries later found decisions were largely science led.  
• Where to draw the line for regulatory settings with big market consequences. 
• Who really decides when portfolios collide, and who pays. 
• Why Pedigree pet food had a surprising influence on the risk ‘appetite’
• Whether there is the authorising environment to act beyond the scientific advice.
• Spoiler alert: “over reacting” and “under reacting” are not opposites, they overlap. 

The brilliant podcast, ‘The Cows are Mad’ by BBC.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001rrhy/episodes/player

The West Wing: Season 3, episode 9 (featuring Mad Cow disease).

https://youtu.be/ouBr3F2qWMI?si=uecMkFaQFnMGVvyL&t=220

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

We want to make lasting and meaningful change, but how do we get there? In this special episode Caroline interviews Frances Foster-Thorpe and Jason Tabarias about their insights into the skills and frameworks needed to tackle large, complex and ambitious reform.

We cover: 

• Biting off what you can chew by picking two of three factors: volume, cost, quality
• Examples of big Australian reforms that did and didn't hit the mark
• Lining up stakeholder expectations, the authorising environment, and operational capability
• Stretching the political window of opportunity by looking up and out
• Why sequencing can be a more productive conversation than prioritisation
• Proposals that are needs or community-led, evidence based and implementation-ready 
• Making cross-system collaboration work: everyone is a colleague, everyone has valuable knowledge, and everyone is responsible for doing as much as we can 
• Tips for system diplomats and working with system diplomats

Mark Moore's strategic triangle 

The Three Horizons Framework

Geoff Mulgan 'The Art of Public Strategy'

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

Buy a sports car or start a podcast. It all could have gone the way of a new hobby, with audio kit languishing in a drawer. Instead, this podcast has become a study and celebration of the tricky craft of public service, and it's a source of pure joy for us. 

Reflecting on three years of TWT: 

• Humble and haphazard beginnings
• What’s changed since the Robodebt Royal Commission 
• Our favourite interviews, scandals, episodes
• Lifting the veil on moments of chaos
• Our favourite moments with listeners (and do we need an identifier for the TWT listener cohort?)
• Learnings on the journey and things we’ve changed our minds on

And that’s a wrap for 2025. Till next year!

Alison listing all the places we’ve “recorded” sounds remarkably like Shaggy… https://youtu.be/p4qqOHllgps?si=uEHlcD6JMW9Jabng 

‘Abundance: How We Build a Better Future’ by Ezra Klein, Derek Thompson: https://www.allenandunwin.com/browse/book/Ezra-Klein,-Derek-Thompson-Abundance-9781805226055

Nigella Lawson reading ‘How to eat’ https://www.audible.com.au/pd/How-to-Eat-The-Pleasures-and-Principles-of-Good-Food-Audiobook/1473567351

Colin Firth’s indecent gravel: https://www.amazon.com/The-End-of-Affair-Graham-Greene-audiobook/dp/B0081293SO 

Anything narrated by Richard Roxburgh https://www.audible.com.au/search?searchNarrator=Richard+Roxburgh&ref_pageloadid=not_applicable&pf_rd_p=771c6463-05d7-4981-9b47-920dc34a70f1&pf_rd_r=C0M8084B840VVEERZRJ5&plink=IArL51tFosgDIpzy&pageLoadId=FlLq75E1cuzEn4oS&creativeId=adcc4fec-4d90-49d1-997e-8be21d68ce7f&ref=a_search_c3_lNarrator_1_2_1

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

In this Christmas special, Caroline, Alison and Danielle unwrap the public service’s most gear-grinding buzzwords, what they’re supposed to mean and what they have now quietly become. With words crowdsourced from the fine listeners of TWT, we talk:

• Big serious words and how their technical meanings have drifted
• The corporate visitors who arrived and never left
• Words that hide fear or indecision 
• How co-design can be a handbrake, and why government struggles to set boundaries on what is genuinely up for shaping.
• Word of the year: nature-positive 

The brilliant book that Alison refers to is ‘The Right Kind of Wrong’ by Amy Edmondson: https://www.dymocks.com.au/right-kind-of-wrong-by-amy-edmondson-9781847943781

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

Your shiny new promotion turns out to be more than you bargained for. 

In this scenario-based "Imagine if..." episode, Caroline and Danielle assume the role of a newly promoted manager who steps into a team they didn’t choose and some character-building challenges. 

⚠️ Mild trigger warning for the depiction of toxic colleagues - we've all had one!

We cover: 

• Walking the floor and gathering intel
• How to give the boss response to a credibility challenge
• Clarifying the authorising environment 
• Lifting work quality 
• When to whip out the whiteboard to create a two-way learning exercise 
• Setting a vision and direction for the team that’s sensitive to the past 
• Responding to bad behaviour that’s not quite misconduct
• To report or not to report; the risks of weighing in

Good egg managers in the Re Meagher case
https://hearsay.org.au/graduate-lawyer-fails-in-fair-work-act-bullying-claim/

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

When politics meets process, what’s a conscientious public servant to do? This “Imagine if…” episode puts Alison and Danielle in the shoes of a project manager caught between legality, leadership and media heat — and explores what good judgment looks like when everyone’s waiting to be told what’s important.

The first in an “Imagine if…” series as requested by listeners — exploring the messy, real-world dilemmas of public administration.

We cover:

·      Managing up and whether to buy into your boss’ crazy

·      The hurry up and wait of briefing on options 

·      Verbal directions and when to turn them into written confirmation 

·      When to seek advice on legality 

·      Documentation! And the safeguard of personal file noting

·      The fallacy of ‘not my job’ when every problem for government is a problem for everyone in government

·      Having multiple comms plans and when not to pick up the phone

·      The impacts of external pressure on internal process. 

·      Trap for the young players: informal intel travels very quickly 

·      Who gets to make the decision?

·      Building in agility to allow for changing priorities

Shout out to the  Normal Gossip podcast for inspiring this episode: https://open.spotify.com/show/0KVZ16mLZ1bbNlnKemYTzm 

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

Demos has released a fascinating paper, The Human Handbrake, on the five human habits that stall public sector reform. In this episode we pick through each of them - fear, heroics, tribes, tidiness, and tempo - and test practical fixes from risk stratification to outcome-focused equity. Topics covered include:

• fear-driven risk culture and how to stratify risk
• safe-to-fail spaces vs non-negotiable protections
• policy hero incentives vs long-term stewardship
• recruitment, merit, and better references
• tribes and bridges between centre and frontline
• proximity, exchanges, and communities of practice
• simplicity bias vs equity and local texture
• outcome measurement, real-time data, and storytelling
• political tempo, accountability, and transparent milestones
• culture as accelerator, not brake.

We covered a wild variety of content in this episode. Here's a smattering:

• Demos The Human Handbrake
• What do blueberries have to do with my job?
• The Trust Equation
• CONTAINED 30 minutes. 3 rooms. One truth about youth justice.
• e61 research on the shift in social spend “Dependency should be debated”
• The newspaper wall in the Kingsman movies

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

In our second change management episode, Danielle pulls apart the myth of the “minor” restructure and lay out a practical way to change without breaking the work. From function mapping and ministerial comms to union engagement and the “fourth trimester”, we consider how to make change stick with clarity and care.

• why six to nine months is realistic for restructures
• function before form and mapping real work
• aligning vision to delivery using bottom‑up design
• ministers and boards as informed stakeholders, not deciders
• the centralise versus localise accordion and trade‑offs
• middle managers as the glue of change
• naming unknowns, iteration, and review cycles
• working with unions
• plumbing and HR sequencing that stalls programs
• after ‘go‑live’ habits, SOPs, and consistent standards
• what’s up for grabs versus non‑negotiable boundaries
• logistics people actually care about: seats, commutes, WFH.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!