We want to make lasting and meaningful change, but how do we get there? In this special episode Caroline interviews Frances Foster-Thorpe and Jason Tabarias about their insights into the skills and frameworks needed to tackle large, complex and ambitious reform.

We cover: 

• Biting off what you can chew by picking two of three factors: volume, cost, quality
• Examples of big Australian reforms that did and didn't hit the mark
• Lining up stakeholder expectations, the authorising environment, and operational capability
• Stretching the political window of opportunity by looking up and out
• Why sequencing can be a more productive conversation than prioritisation
• Proposals that are needs or community-led, evidence based and implementation-ready 
• Making cross-system collaboration work: everyone is a colleague, everyone has valuable knowledge, and everyone is responsible for doing as much as we can 
• Tips for system diplomats and working with system diplomats

Mark Moore's strategic triangle 

The Three Horizons Framework

Geoff Mulgan 'The Art of Public Strategy'

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

Buy a sports car or start a podcast. It all could have gone the way of a new hobby, with audio kit languishing in a drawer. Instead, this podcast has become a study and celebration of the tricky craft of public service, and it's a source of pure joy for us. 

Reflecting on three years of TWT: 

• Humble and haphazard beginnings
• What’s changed since the Robodebt Royal Commission 
• Our favourite interviews, scandals, episodes
• Lifting the veil on moments of chaos
• Our favourite moments with listeners (and do we need an identifier for the TWT listener cohort?)
• Learnings on the journey and things we’ve changed our minds on

And that’s a wrap for 2025. Till next year!

Alison listing all the places we’ve “recorded” sounds remarkably like Shaggy… https://youtu.be/p4qqOHllgps?si=uEHlcD6JMW9Jabng 

‘Abundance: How We Build a Better Future’ by Ezra Klein, Derek Thompson: https://www.allenandunwin.com/browse/book/Ezra-Klein,-Derek-Thompson-Abundance-9781805226055

Nigella Lawson reading ‘How to eat’ https://www.audible.com.au/pd/How-to-Eat-The-Pleasures-and-Principles-of-Good-Food-Audiobook/1473567351

Colin Firth’s indecent gravel: https://www.amazon.com/The-End-of-Affair-Graham-Greene-audiobook/dp/B0081293SO 

Anything narrated by Richard Roxburgh https://www.audible.com.au/search?searchNarrator=Richard+Roxburgh&ref_pageloadid=not_applicable&pf_rd_p=771c6463-05d7-4981-9b47-920dc34a70f1&pf_rd_r=C0M8084B840VVEERZRJ5&plink=IArL51tFosgDIpzy&pageLoadId=FlLq75E1cuzEn4oS&creativeId=adcc4fec-4d90-49d1-997e-8be21d68ce7f&ref=a_search_c3_lNarrator_1_2_1

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

In this Christmas special, Caroline, Alison and Danielle unwrap the public service’s most gear-grinding buzzwords, what they’re supposed to mean and what they have now quietly become. With words crowdsourced from the fine listeners of TWT, we talk:

• Big serious words and how their technical meanings have drifted
• The corporate visitors who arrived and never left
• Words that hide fear or indecision 
• How co-design can be a handbrake, and why government struggles to set boundaries on what is genuinely up for shaping.
• Word of the year: nature-positive 

The brilliant book that Alison refers to is ‘The Right Kind of Wrong’ by Amy Edmondson: https://www.dymocks.com.au/right-kind-of-wrong-by-amy-edmondson-9781847943781

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

Your shiny new promotion turns out to be more than you bargained for. 

In this scenario-based "Imagine if..." episode, Caroline and Danielle assume the role of a newly promoted manager who steps into a team they didn’t choose and some character-building challenges. 

⚠️ Mild trigger warning for the depiction of toxic colleagues - we've all had one!

We cover: 

• Walking the floor and gathering intel
• How to give the boss response to a credibility challenge
• Clarifying the authorising environment 
• Lifting work quality 
• When to whip out the whiteboard to create a two-way learning exercise 
• Setting a vision and direction for the team that’s sensitive to the past 
• Responding to bad behaviour that’s not quite misconduct
• To report or not to report; the risks of weighing in

Good egg managers in the Re Meagher case
https://hearsay.org.au/graduate-lawyer-fails-in-fair-work-act-bullying-claim/

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

When politics meets process, what’s a conscientious public servant to do? This “Imagine if…” episode puts Alison and Danielle in the shoes of a project manager caught between legality, leadership and media heat — and explores what good judgment looks like when everyone’s waiting to be told what’s important.

The first in an “Imagine if…” series as requested by listeners — exploring the messy, real-world dilemmas of public administration.

We cover:

·      Managing up and whether to buy into your boss’ crazy

·      The hurry up and wait of briefing on options 

·      Verbal directions and when to turn them into written confirmation 

·      When to seek advice on legality 

·      Documentation! And the safeguard of personal file noting

·      The fallacy of ‘not my job’ when every problem for government is a problem for everyone in government

·      Having multiple comms plans and when not to pick up the phone

·      The impacts of external pressure on internal process. 

·      Trap for the young players: informal intel travels very quickly 

·      Who gets to make the decision?

·      Building in agility to allow for changing priorities

Shout out to the  Normal Gossip podcast for inspiring this episode: https://open.spotify.com/show/0KVZ16mLZ1bbNlnKemYTzm 

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

Demos has released a fascinating paper, The Human Handbrake, on the five human habits that stall public sector reform. In this episode we pick through each of them - fear, heroics, tribes, tidiness, and tempo - and test practical fixes from risk stratification to outcome-focused equity. Topics covered include:

• fear-driven risk culture and how to stratify risk
• safe-to-fail spaces vs non-negotiable protections
• policy hero incentives vs long-term stewardship
• recruitment, merit, and better references
• tribes and bridges between centre and frontline
• proximity, exchanges, and communities of practice
• simplicity bias vs equity and local texture
• outcome measurement, real-time data, and storytelling
• political tempo, accountability, and transparent milestones
• culture as accelerator, not brake.

We covered a wild variety of content in this episode. Here's a smattering:

• Demos The Human Handbrake
• What do blueberries have to do with my job?
• The Trust Equation
• CONTAINED 30 minutes. 3 rooms. One truth about youth justice.
• e61 research on the shift in social spend “Dependency should be debated”
• The newspaper wall in the Kingsman movies

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

In our second change management episode, Danielle pulls apart the myth of the “minor” restructure and lay out a practical way to change without breaking the work. From function mapping and ministerial comms to union engagement and the “fourth trimester”, we consider how to make change stick with clarity and care.

• why six to nine months is realistic for restructures
• function before form and mapping real work
• aligning vision to delivery using bottom‑up design
• ministers and boards as informed stakeholders, not deciders
• the centralise versus localise accordion and trade‑offs
• middle managers as the glue of change
• naming unknowns, iteration, and review cycles
• working with unions
• plumbing and HR sequencing that stalls programs
• after ‘go‑live’ habits, SOPs, and consistent standards
• what’s up for grabs versus non‑negotiable boundaries
• logistics people actually care about: seats, commutes, WFH.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

Danielle takes us on a romp through change management, starting, as with all good contrarians, with a challenge to the idea of ‘change management’ itself. 

Some of the ideas covered:

• Change is happening all the time in government, not just during formal "change management" periods
• Most people dislike uncertainty rather than change itself
• Mission and values-driven staff struggle most with macro changes that shift agency direction
• Medium-level changes (like new systems) are often underestimated and underfunded
• The "don't be a dickhead rule" isn't enough—change management is genuinely difficult
• Leaders should listen carefully to "change resistors" who may be flagging legitimate risks
• Administrative foundations must be solid before change begins (position descriptions, contracts, etc.)
• Different professional groups (lawyers, scientists, policy officers) respond differently to change
• Maintaining a stable core while being honest about what's changing helps navigate transitions.

Referenced in this episode:

• If Books Could Kill pod on Who Moved My Cheese?

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

Our first live show at the wildly successful ANZSOG NRCOP Conference in Brisbane August 2025.

The conversation tackles head-on the structural disconnections between our regulatory and policy systems, particularly in federated models like early childhood education. How do we reconcile a Commonwealth pouring billions into subsidies while state-based quality regulators remain chronically underfunded? What happens when funding accessibility doesn't come with proportionate strengthening of quality oversight?

Most revealing is the discussion about regulatory independence versus political interference. While statutory independence is crucial for regulatory integrity, our panelists acknowledge the reality that regulators remain part of government—subject to ministerial directions, government resourcing decisions, and public sector constraints.

This creates a challenging balance that every regulator must navigate daily.

Alison leaves with the best advice for all emerging regulators - find your people, people who you can trust and you can talk with and test your thinking.

Referenced in this episode:

• James Shipton The Regulatory State: Faults, Flaws and False Assumptions
• NRCoP 2025 National Conference Regulation 2025 to 2050: Disruption, Change and Continuity 

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

What makes someone qualified to be a minister? In this candid conversation with Tom Koutsantonis, South Australia's longest-serving current parliamentarian, Danielle explores the fascinating intersection where political leadership meets public administration.

Drawing on his remarkable career spanning multiple portfolios including Treasury, Energy, and Transport, Koutsantonis takes us behind the curtain of ministerial decision-making.

He dispels the myth that ministers need specialised expertise in their portfolio areas, arguing instead that their authority comes from democratic mandate and demonstrated competence rather than academic credentials.

The discussion offers a masterclass in policy implementation, particularly during times of crisis.

Koutsantonis shares the stark reality of South Australia's 2016 energy blackout, where conventional thinking had to be abandoned for bold action. "It was Jay and I just saying 'I don't care what you think,'" he recalls of overriding resistant public servants to implement transformative energy solutions. This candid account reveals how decisive leadership can break through entrenched bureaucratic thinking when circumstances demand it.

Public servants will find particular value in Koutsantonis's insights on ministerial briefings. Despite modern trends toward abbreviated formats, he staunchly defends detailed written briefings: "If ministers aren't reading past the first three lines, it's to their detriment." His perspective offers reassurance that thorough policy work remains essential to good governance.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!