When politics meets process, what’s a conscientious public servant to do? This “Imagine if…” episode puts Alison and Danielle in the shoes of a project manager caught between legality, leadership and media heat — and explores what good judgment looks like when everyone’s waiting to be told what’s important.

The first in an “Imagine if…” series as requested by listeners — exploring the messy, real-world dilemmas of public administration.

We cover:

·      Managing up and whether to buy into your boss’ crazy

·      The hurry up and wait of briefing on options 

·      Verbal directions and when to turn them into written confirmation 

·      When to seek advice on legality 

·      Documentation! And the safeguard of personal file noting

·      The fallacy of ‘not my job’ when every problem for government is a problem for everyone in government

·      Having multiple comms plans and when not to pick up the phone

·      The impacts of external pressure on internal process. 

·      Trap for the young players: informal intel travels very quickly 

·      Who gets to make the decision?

·      Building in agility to allow for changing priorities

Shout out to the  Normal Gossip podcast for inspiring this episode: https://open.spotify.com/show/0KVZ16mLZ1bbNlnKemYTzm 

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

Demos has released a fascinating paper, The Human Handbrake, on the five human habits that stall public sector reform. In this episode we pick through each of them - fear, heroics, tribes, tidiness, and tempo - and test practical fixes from risk stratification to outcome-focused equity. Topics covered include:

• fear-driven risk culture and how to stratify risk
• safe-to-fail spaces vs non-negotiable protections
• policy hero incentives vs long-term stewardship
• recruitment, merit, and better references
• tribes and bridges between centre and frontline
• proximity, exchanges, and communities of practice
• simplicity bias vs equity and local texture
• outcome measurement, real-time data, and storytelling
• political tempo, accountability, and transparent milestones
• culture as accelerator, not brake.

We covered a wild variety of content in this episode. Here's a smattering:

• Demos The Human Handbrake
• What do blueberries have to do with my job?
• The Trust Equation
• CONTAINED 30 minutes. 3 rooms. One truth about youth justice.
• e61 research on the shift in social spend “Dependency should be debated”
• The newspaper wall in the Kingsman movies

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

In our second change management episode, Danielle pulls apart the myth of the “minor” restructure and lay out a practical way to change without breaking the work. From function mapping and ministerial comms to union engagement and the “fourth trimester”, we consider how to make change stick with clarity and care.

• why six to nine months is realistic for restructures
• function before form and mapping real work
• aligning vision to delivery using bottom‑up design
• ministers and boards as informed stakeholders, not deciders
• the centralise versus localise accordion and trade‑offs
• middle managers as the glue of change
• naming unknowns, iteration, and review cycles
• working with unions
• plumbing and HR sequencing that stalls programs
• after ‘go‑live’ habits, SOPs, and consistent standards
• what’s up for grabs versus non‑negotiable boundaries
• logistics people actually care about: seats, commutes, WFH.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

Danielle takes us on a romp through change management, starting, as with all good contrarians, with a challenge to the idea of ‘change management’ itself. 

Some of the ideas covered:

• Change is happening all the time in government, not just during formal "change management" periods
• Most people dislike uncertainty rather than change itself
• Mission and values-driven staff struggle most with macro changes that shift agency direction
• Medium-level changes (like new systems) are often underestimated and underfunded
• The "don't be a dickhead rule" isn't enough—change management is genuinely difficult
• Leaders should listen carefully to "change resistors" who may be flagging legitimate risks
• Administrative foundations must be solid before change begins (position descriptions, contracts, etc.)
• Different professional groups (lawyers, scientists, policy officers) respond differently to change
• Maintaining a stable core while being honest about what's changing helps navigate transitions.

Referenced in this episode:

• If Books Could Kill pod on Who Moved My Cheese?

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

Our first live show at the wildly successful ANZSOG NRCOP Conference in Brisbane August 2025.

The conversation tackles head-on the structural disconnections between our regulatory and policy systems, particularly in federated models like early childhood education. How do we reconcile a Commonwealth pouring billions into subsidies while state-based quality regulators remain chronically underfunded? What happens when funding accessibility doesn't come with proportionate strengthening of quality oversight?

Most revealing is the discussion about regulatory independence versus political interference. While statutory independence is crucial for regulatory integrity, our panelists acknowledge the reality that regulators remain part of government—subject to ministerial directions, government resourcing decisions, and public sector constraints.

This creates a challenging balance that every regulator must navigate daily.

Alison leaves with the best advice for all emerging regulators - find your people, people who you can trust and you can talk with and test your thinking.

Referenced in this episode:

• James Shipton The Regulatory State: Faults, Flaws and False Assumptions
• NRCoP 2025 National Conference Regulation 2025 to 2050: Disruption, Change and Continuity 

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

What makes someone qualified to be a minister? In this candid conversation with Tom Koutsantonis, South Australia's longest-serving current parliamentarian, Danielle explores the fascinating intersection where political leadership meets public administration.

Drawing on his remarkable career spanning multiple portfolios including Treasury, Energy, and Transport, Koutsantonis takes us behind the curtain of ministerial decision-making.

He dispels the myth that ministers need specialised expertise in their portfolio areas, arguing instead that their authority comes from democratic mandate and demonstrated competence rather than academic credentials.

The discussion offers a masterclass in policy implementation, particularly during times of crisis.

Koutsantonis shares the stark reality of South Australia's 2016 energy blackout, where conventional thinking had to be abandoned for bold action. "It was Jay and I just saying 'I don't care what you think,'" he recalls of overriding resistant public servants to implement transformative energy solutions. This candid account reveals how decisive leadership can break through entrenched bureaucratic thinking when circumstances demand it.

Public servants will find particular value in Koutsantonis's insights on ministerial briefings. Despite modern trends toward abbreviated formats, he staunchly defends detailed written briefings: "If ministers aren't reading past the first three lines, it's to their detriment." His perspective offers reassurance that thorough policy work remains essential to good governance.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

In this episode, Danielle, Caroline and Alison look at ANOTHER big ICT transformation project, with enormous human impacts and a long and expensive clean up. 

The Queensland Health payroll system failure ranks as one of Australia's worst public administration disasters, costing taxpayers $1.2 billion and leaving 78,000 healthcare workers without proper pay. 

What began as a $98 million routine upgrade became a case study in governance failure, mismanaged procurement, and the dangers of outsourcing critical government functions without maintaining proper oversight. IBM was actually barred from taking Queensland government work for its involvement in the scandal.

In this episode we revisit some lessons with a sharper eye on lessons including:

• It’s easy to get out of touch with what matters to your workforce - and payroll is *the* most important back end function
• The critical question of identifying how much inaccuracy you are willing to live with before accepting a system
• Contract management is critical - and never sign a release from liability just to get the contractor to keep working
• Generalists can’t stand back from ICT projects

Referenced in this episode

• Richard Chesterman QC Queensland Health Payroll System Commission of Inquiry (2013)
• The Radical How’s recommendation to shift procurement so that we buy or rent services that support teams, not simply to whom outcomes are outsourced“

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

In this episode, we dive into Danielle’s favourite topic - work place flexibility. Public servants working from home has become a visible fault line in Australian politics and media, revealing deeper questions about productivity, surveillance, and trust in our workplaces. The convenience culture debate exposes how work design impacts everything from gender equity to regional development.

Danielle, Alison and Caroline unpack the following:

• That COVID forced rapid technology deployment and showed flexible work was more feasible than previously claimed
• The way in which working from home discussions often get unhelpfully gendered, limiting broader conversations about work design
• The leadership capability gaps revealed in the "if I can't see them, how do I know they're working" mindset
• How intentional communication becomes even more important in hybrid or remote environments
• Why the topic has a special valence in relation to the public service, and public expectations.

Referenced in the episode :

• The work of Professor Carol Kulik on the importance of autonomy in the workplace
• Worksafe Australia’s advice on the psychosocial hazards, including low job control, poor support and lack of role clarity.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

What if the real problem in public service reform isn't what we're trying to do, but how we're trying to do it? Caroline, Danielle, and Alison dive deep into a revolutionary approach to government change by examining The Radical How – a framework published by UK innovation foundation Nesta.

The conversation unpacks three core principles that could transform public service:

• start small and test assumptions early rather than pretending to know all answers upfront;
• build genuinely multidisciplinary teams instead of working in silos; and
• focus relentlessly on outcomes for people rather than system outputs.

Through concrete examples like COVID testing in the UK and reflections on infrastructure projects that changed course mid-development, we illuminate both the potential and challenges of this approach.

But implementing this "radical how" faces significant barriers – from political imperatives that demand certainty to procurement systems that reward the wrong things.

We grapple with tough questions about experimenting in people's lives, gaining social license for change, and communicating complex approaches in simple ways.

We reflect on how federalism already offers a natural experiment in policy diversity across Australian jurisdictions, though we rarely harness its full potential.

Referenced in the episode

• NESTA The Radical How
• The radical 1960s schools experiment that created a whole new alphabet - and left thousands of children unable to spell
• Rick Morton Smoking data taken down after link to vape ban
• Our previous episode on Pink Batts and Robodebt - lessons not learned

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

Tom Loosemore of Public Digital was instrumental in the capital R Reset of Universal Credit.

In this interview, he tells Caroline there were no beanbags, but a lot of multi-D.

This interview adds nuance and richness to the picture sketched in our previous Universal Credit episodes. Some of the key insights include:

• Fundamental problem of the original approach was thinking of Universal Credit as a technology challenge rather than a complex policy, operational, and design challenge
• The first phase of system design suffered from incorrect data models, overly complex contracting arrangements, and thousands of untested assumptions
• Reset team created a small, multidisciplinary team, outside main DWP building to establish psychological safety
• Clear ministerial outcome statement ("more people in more work more of the time") provided crucial North Star
• Testing real service with 100 users through creative use of secondary legislation before wider rollout
• Radical shift was to understand that the core feature of Universal Credit was how to cope with change of circumstances, not signing on or signing off
• Senior leaders like Neil Couling protected teams from political interference while maintaining ministerial accountability
• Adaptable culture allowed 9-10 policy/technology changes daily during COVID crisis
• Digital transformation requires outcomes focus, multidisciplinary teams, and continuous testing of assumptions
• System proved sustainability by withstanding unprecedented change in both demand and policy over time

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!