In this episode, Danielle, Caroline and Alison look at ANOTHER big ICT transformation project, with enormous human impacts and a long and expensive clean up. 

The Queensland Health payroll system failure ranks as one of Australia's worst public administration disasters, costing taxpayers $1.2 billion and leaving 78,000 healthcare workers without proper pay. 

What began as a $98 million routine upgrade became a case study in governance failure, mismanaged procurement, and the dangers of outsourcing critical government functions without maintaining proper oversight. IBM was actually barred from taking Queensland government work for its involvement in the scandal.

In this episode we revisit some lessons with a sharper eye on lessons including:

• It’s easy to get out of touch with what matters to your workforce - and payroll is *the* most important back end function
• The critical question of identifying how much inaccuracy you are willing to live with before accepting a system
• Contract management is critical - and never sign a release from liability just to get the contractor to keep working
• Generalists can’t stand back from ICT projects

Referenced in this episode

• Richard Chesterman QC Queensland Health Payroll System Commission of Inquiry (2013)
• The Radical How’s recommendation to shift procurement so that we buy or rent services that support teams, not simply to whom outcomes are outsourced“

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

In this episode, we dive into Danielle’s favourite topic - work place flexibility. Public servants working from home has become a visible fault line in Australian politics and media, revealing deeper questions about productivity, surveillance, and trust in our workplaces. The convenience culture debate exposes how work design impacts everything from gender equity to regional development.

Danielle, Alison and Caroline unpack the following:

• That COVID forced rapid technology deployment and showed flexible work was more feasible than previously claimed
• The way in which working from home discussions often get unhelpfully gendered, limiting broader conversations about work design
• The leadership capability gaps revealed in the "if I can't see them, how do I know they're working" mindset
• How intentional communication becomes even more important in hybrid or remote environments
• Why the topic has a special valence in relation to the public service, and public expectations.

Referenced in the episode :

• The work of Professor Carol Kulik on the importance of autonomy in the workplace
• Worksafe Australia’s advice on the psychosocial hazards, including low job control, poor support and lack of role clarity.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

What if the real problem in public service reform isn't what we're trying to do, but how we're trying to do it? Caroline, Danielle, and Alison dive deep into a revolutionary approach to government change by examining The Radical How – a framework published by UK innovation foundation Nesta.

The conversation unpacks three core principles that could transform public service:

• start small and test assumptions early rather than pretending to know all answers upfront;
• build genuinely multidisciplinary teams instead of working in silos; and
• focus relentlessly on outcomes for people rather than system outputs.

Through concrete examples like COVID testing in the UK and reflections on infrastructure projects that changed course mid-development, we illuminate both the potential and challenges of this approach.

But implementing this "radical how" faces significant barriers – from political imperatives that demand certainty to procurement systems that reward the wrong things.

We grapple with tough questions about experimenting in people's lives, gaining social license for change, and communicating complex approaches in simple ways.

We reflect on how federalism already offers a natural experiment in policy diversity across Australian jurisdictions, though we rarely harness its full potential.

Referenced in the episode

• NESTA The Radical How
• The radical 1960s schools experiment that created a whole new alphabet - and left thousands of children unable to spell
• Rick Morton Smoking data taken down after link to vape ban
• Our previous episode on Pink Batts and Robodebt - lessons not learned

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

Tom Loosemore of Public Digital was instrumental in the capital R Reset of Universal Credit.

In this interview, he tells Caroline there were no beanbags, but a lot of multi-D.

This interview adds nuance and richness to the picture sketched in our previous Universal Credit episodes. Some of the key insights include:

• Fundamental problem of the original approach was thinking of Universal Credit as a technology challenge rather than a complex policy, operational, and design challenge
• The first phase of system design suffered from incorrect data models, overly complex contracting arrangements, and thousands of untested assumptions
• Reset team created a small, multidisciplinary team, outside main DWP building to establish psychological safety
• Clear ministerial outcome statement ("more people in more work more of the time") provided crucial North Star
• Testing real service with 100 users through creative use of secondary legislation before wider rollout
• Radical shift was to understand that the core feature of Universal Credit was how to cope with change of circumstances, not signing on or signing off
• Senior leaders like Neil Couling protected teams from political interference while maintaining ministerial accountability
• Adaptable culture allowed 9-10 policy/technology changes daily during COVID crisis
• Digital transformation requires outcomes focus, multidisciplinary teams, and continuous testing of assumptions
• System proved sustainability by withstanding unprecedented change in both demand and policy over time

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

In this second episode on Universal Credit, we talk about how the team transitioned from catastrophic failure to remarkable success.

We cover:

• The barriers to test and learn - from the need for certainty by leaders, to Treasury requirements for business cases, to the need to support Ministers
• The lessons learnt by the 10 year in role SRO Neil Couling [sorry CCB called you Neil Coulson!!] - including ‘avoid the tyranny of the timetable’
• Whether test and learn will be something younger generations find easier to manage than us Gen X-ers
• The glory of farewell speeches, inspired by Iain Duncan-Smith’s resignation letter.

Referenced in this episode:

• The Institute for Government’s event From disaster to completion?
• Andrew Solomon’s book Far from the Tree

Cover art is from Nesta’s The Radical How. 

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

In the shadow of worries about the NDIS, do we even believe that big system reform in Australia is do-able any more? Is the juice worth the squeeze?

In this first of a two part series, we explore the example of Universal Credit, a 15 year long reform agenda in the UK to combine 6 benefits into one, and, more importantly, seeking to transform the relationship of the citizen to work and welfare. 

In this episode we unpick how it goes from an idea that is incorporated into the UK Coalition Government’s priority list in 2010 to a £450m hot mess in 2013.

We also look at the unusual (and brave) decision to keep going.

Along the way, we cover:

• Whether radical transparency can be an answer to rescuing something when you’re in the middle of a hot mess?
• Whether we underestimate the importance of a ’holder of the vision’ in giant systems reform? 
• Whether articulating a north star for reform is hard because it makes clear what you are prioritising, and, equally importantly, what you’re not?
• The laughable idea of low hanging fruit

Referenced in the episode:

• Ed Milliband’s interview referencing PM Gordon Brown as an ideas factory, on Leading (The Rest is Politics)
• David Freud’s masterful memoir on his seminal role in Universal Credit, Clashing Agendas
• Institute for Government has held a number of great events on this, including one in 2016 and another in 2025
• Abul Rizvi’s appearance on Joe Walker podcast on the origins of Australia’s immigration system

Intro grab is Lord David Freud from Institute for Government 2016 event, From disaster to recovery: Learning the lessons of Universal Credit Clashing Agendas.

Outro grab is Tom Loosemore, former Deputy Director, Government Digital Services, from Institute for Government 2025 event, From disaster to completion? What Government can learn from the Universal Credit story? 

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

In a wide ranging discussion, Alison, Caroline and Danielle come together to discuss the gems from the Amanda Vanstone interview, which examined how power, responsibility and decision-making played out at the top of government during her two decades as a federal minister.

Vanstone's approach to being a minister - asking questions until understanding, visiting programs unannounced, and taking full responsibility for decisions - offers deep insights.

We also canvas some less expected topics, including:

• Is it a boomer quality to use ALL CAPS in inconveniently located thank you notes?
  • See the memoir of UK civil service head What Does Jeremy Think? by Suzanne Heywood
• Are the best questions the ones asked by kindergarteners 'Who? What? Why?'
  • See also Maria Katsonis LinkedIn post on The Art of Asking Smarter Questions
• Are people disinterested in history in policy making, or are we just pitching it wrong?
  • See also Abul Rizvi on Immigration Policy on The Joe Walker Podcast 
  • Memoir of Pamela Churchill Harriman Kingmaker by Sonia Purnell
• Was Amanda Vanstone falling in to the classic 'good girl' trope of delivering savings, rather than posturing about plans to deliver savings?
  • On why Australia struggles with a conversation about trade offs, see Judith Brett on How a Benthamite Political Culture Shaped Australia's Electoral System, on The Joe Walker Podcast
• Would we star in a documentary on tricky policy making? Or do we already have the essence of one in Utopia?

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

Former Senator Amanda Vanstone offers a masterclass in ministerial leadership, delivering sharp insights from her 21-year political career that are as relevant today as they were during her time in Prime Minister Howard's Cabinet. Cutting through bureaucratic excuses with remarkable clarity, she reveals how effective ministers must take full responsibility while developing practical strategies to uncover what's really happening within their departments.

Vanstone's approach to ministerial oversight was refreshingly direct—phoning junior staff who prepared briefs rather than accepting sanitized information from senior executives, making unannounced visits to government-funded programs, and consistently asking "how does that work?" until satisfied with the answers. "You get what you inspect, not what you expect," she notes, emphasizing that accountability requires hands-on leadership.

Her frank discussion of major reforms like the creation of Centrelink highlights how structural change requires both political courage and practical problem-solving. When departments maintained separate offices but required them to be within walking distance, she asked the obvious question: "Why not put them together?" This common-sense approach characterized her leadership across Employment, Education, Justice and Immigration portfolios.

What stands out most powerfully is Vanstone's perspective on ministerial responsibility. "That's why ministers sign on the bottom line. That's why you get paid," she asserts, rejecting excuses about inherited problems or departmental advice. Her experiences with Immigration Department failures—including the wrongful deportation of Australian citizen Vivian Alvarez—taught her that when you find one serious problem, you must look deeper: "When a mouse runs out of your fridge, you think that's a mouse. When the second one comes a week later, you bring the fridge out and clean it out."

Ready for straight talk about how government really works? Listen now to learn why Amanda Vanstone believes we urgently need another National Commission of Audit and how effective ministers must balance scrutiny with support to get the best from public servants.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

Efficiency is in the news ... but what does it mean? How should public servants work on improving efficiency? Should we be focused on system reform, ending whole entitlements, or nibbling at the edges?

• How to know what kind of budget savings task you are in - deep restructuring or a cyclical contraction / expansion?
• Is front line v back office a helpful distinction?
• When are external reviews helpful, and when do they hurt?
• What is the role of tech in delivering savings?

Referenced in the episode

• Institute for Government's reflections on PM Starmer's Rewiring the State agenda
• Suzanne Heywood "What does Jeremy think? Jeremy Heywood and the Making of Modern Britain"
• John Halligan (with Jules Wills) "The Centrelink Experiment"
• BBC 'Denmark's postal service to stop delivering letters'
• The NDIS Review

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

Surfing a wave of listener feelings about this topic, Danielle takes us through the experience of public service recruitment from the other side.

• Danielle and Alison argue about the merits of requiring 'in house' recruitment before externally advertising positions
• The role that conservative (perhaps inexpert??) local budget management plays in driving a cycle of vacancies and short term contracts
• How complex recruitment processes make the public service less and less like the public we serve
• Ezra Klein's podcast episode In This House, We're Angry When Government Fails
• The good, the bad and the ugly of external recruiters

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!