With a decade as a Commonwealth Secretary, and two more as Australian Public Service Commissioner, it is no surprise Robodebt Royal Commissioner Holmes turned to Andrew Podger AO for expert advice on the operation of the public service.

In this episode, Danielle talks to Andrew about the impact that granting tenure could have on the quality of advice, the increasing use of labour hire in the public service, and the importance of senior executives having read the legislation.

Also referenced in the conversation:

• The ‘Barilaro Report’: NSW DPC Investigation into the Appointment of Senior Trade and Investment Commissioner to the Americas
• Blair Comley, Cth Secretary Health and Ageing, speech to IPAA (14 March 2024)

Intro grab features Counsel Assisting Justin Greggery, Ms Kathryn Campbell AO CSC,  and Commission Holmes, 11 November 2022.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

What does the community want more - every last transgressor to be punished, or government to keep out of their business?

How can regulators keep pace with changing community expectations about what is ‘appropriate’ - and, indeed, what is a workplace?

What is a regulator to do when you’re facing these issues in the full glare of media scrutiny?

In this final episode of the Essendon mini-series, we think about what this footy doping scandal can tell us about the challenges of being a modern regulator.

Intro grab is then Chief Executive of the AFL, Andrew Demetriou, at the press conference releasing the Australian Crime Commission report on 7 February, 2013.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

In episode two of this mini-series, we pick up the story of the Essendon supplements scandal from the perspective of the investigators.

In this story we hear how ASADA ends up in the middle of a media fire storm, with inadequate regulatory powers and biopharmaceutical technology racing ahead.

But is it really a matter for ASADA at all? Is this an anti-doping violation, or a WHS breach? And why do Cronulla players end up suspended for six matches, while Essendon players get two years?

Intro grab is Richard Eccles, former Deputy Secretary Department for Regional Australia, Local Government, Arts and Sports.

Outro grab is Nathan Lovett-Murray, former Essendon player.

Both from the Long Haul podcast, Episode Two: Inside the Blackest day.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

“Lack of good governance is why good people did bad things at Essendon Football Club”. So says Lindsay Tanner, former Minister for Finance, and President of the Essendon Football Club from 2015.

In this mini-series, Caroline tries to convince us there are lessons for public servants from the Essendon Football Club supplement scandal in 2013.

In this episode, we talk about what happened in Essendon itself. The dangers of charismatic new leaders, new brooms through an organisation, and a failure to take controls and risk management seriously.

Referenced in this episode:

•  Lindsay Tanner ‘Governance lessons from the Essendon scandal’
• The Long Haul podcast, Episode Two: Inside the Blackest Day
• Ziggy Switkowski report into failures of governance at Essendon Football Club
• Dr Bruce Reid letter to Essendon Football Club about his concerns about the supplement regime

Intro grab is Lindsay Tanner, Governance lessons from the Essendon scandal.

Outro grab is Nathan Lovett-Murray and Emma Murray, The Long Haul podcast, Episode Two: Inside the Blackest Day.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

In the second of two follow ups to her interview at the end of 2023, Sue Vardon dives deep on her commitment to training Centrelink staff, including the establishment of an in-house Registered Training Organisation (RTO).

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

In the first of two follow ups to her interview at the end of 2023, Sue Vardon returns to share her thoughts on the dangers for Senior Executives who outsource considerations of legality to the lawyers.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

Centrelink is not alone in having a push and pull between the investment required to get it right up front, versus the convenience of fixing things up later.

We discuss the old chestnut 'fast, cheap, good - pick two' , and the less obvious costs of running lean - whether in pandemic preparedness, strategic policy capacity, workforce burnout.

Finally, Danielle proposes an end to end definition of efficiency, that captures costs we move to other parts of government, or end up paying later on.

• ANAO Report on Accuracy and Timeliness of Welfare Payments (2023)
• The UK Covid Inquiry Podcast

Intro grab from Sue Vardon AO Bonus Episode.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

If you knew your IT system was unreliable, wouldn't you keep some manual checks to make sure it doesn't go wrong? Not if you're Post Office, and desperately looking for savings. Especially if you've just lost your biggest revenue source, in the form of the Benefits Agency and the cash in the tills it provides.

In the final episode of our first (but not last!) mini-series on the Post Office scandal, we examine how the Post Office 'forgot' what it knew about Horizon's unreliability, and then removed key guard rails that might have prevented false prosecutions.


Opening grab from Mr Stevens KC (Counsel Assisting the Inquiry) and Kathryn Parker (former Post Office training), 13 January 2023.
Subsequent grab from Mr Beer KC (Counsel Assisting) and Susan Harding (former Post office Business Process Architect), 22 February 2023.

For thorough and detailed coverage of the Post Office Scandal, start with the reporting of Nick Wallis, including his BBC podcast, the Great Post Office Trial.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

Despite hundreds of technical issues and continuing delays in meeting quality requirements, in January 2000, Post Office Board accepted the Horizon IT system as its own.

In this episode, we discuss how hard it is to say 'stop' in the middle of a game of whack-a-mole of problem fixing, especially when there are institutional incentives to keep going.

We also have strong feelings about the idea of 'minimum viable products' where the delivery of social services - and the founding of prosecutions - are concerned.

Opening grab from Mr Stevens KC (Counsel Assisting the Inquiry) and Stuart Sweetman (former Managing Director of Post Office Counters Limited), 17 November 2022.
Subsequent grab from Mr Jeremy Folkes (former Infrastructure Assurance Team Leader, Horizon Programme, Post Office Counters Ltd) and Mr Beer KC (Counsel Assisting),  17 November 2022.

For thorough and detailed coverage of the Post Office Scandal, start with the reporting of Nick Wallis, including his BBC podcast, the Great Post Office Trial.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

Why was the Post Office's Horizon IT system so error ridden in the first place?

And is the false conviction of nearly 1000 postmasters really Tony Blair's fault in the end? (Spoiler alert: probably not.)

In this episode, Caroline takes us through why Horizon was probably doomed from the start, with Post Office and the Benefits Agency shackled together to buy an ICT system through an elaborately structured, too clever by half Private Finance Initiative (PFI).

Among other things, we talk about the role of first ministers and Cabinet in resolving disagreements between portfolios with genuinely different interests; the impossibility of outsourcing political risk; and the challenge of working out the truth when everyone you speak to has an agenda.

• Harriet Harman, Minister for Social Services, February 1998 letter to PM Blair can be found here.
• Geoff Mulgan's December 1998 minute to PM Blair can be found here, and his reflections after appearing at the Inquiry can be found on his blog here.

Opening grab from Lord Alistair Darling, former Chief Secretary of Treasury, 29 November 2022.
Subsequent grab from Sir Geoffrey Mulgan, former civil servant No. 10 Downing St, 2 December 2022.

For thorough and detailed coverage of the Post Office Scandal, start with the reporting of Nick Wallis, including his BBC podcast, the Great Post Office Trial.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!