Why can it be hard to hear whistleblowers in big organisations? Caroline takes us through Kathryn Campbell's response to whistleblowers that come in via the media and come in via the union, and thinks there's something in that.
 Alison thinks it's a failure of change management - but is stuck on finding words to describe that aren't "waffle cloud".
Danielle finally gets to ask 'what would Colleen do?' - but we all agree it takes a person of rare temperament to be as graceful as Colleen Taylor in blowing the whistle.

You can find the anonymous letter from the whistleblower to GetUp! here.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Intro grab features Ms Colleen Taylor, and Counsel Assisting Mr Scott, 13 December 2022.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

In this special episode, Caroline and Danielle unpack their feelings about the Royal Commission Report, five days after its release.

We also pick through some of the Commissioner's key findings, as they relate to things discussed in previous episodes.

If you are new to the podcast, we suggest you start at the beginning and come to this after you've listened for a bit.

You can find Rick Morton's podcast here, and his books On Money and 100 Years of Dirt.

Intro grab features Ms Colleen Taylor, 13 December 2022

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

In this episode, Caroline takes us through the many different ways in which lawyers in the Commonwealth Government knew that Robodebt was illegal well before the Federal Court settlement in late 2019.
You might not remember who wrote the constitutional law text book, but you would remember going to a conference where an eminent KC dismantles your program point by point. 
Danielle's deep loathing of ritual data collection proves sensible when we discuss the work that DHS lawyers did in reviewing AAT decisions.
Meanwhile, Alison's blood boils as we hear 'advice is just advice', and we learn how the Government was in possession of legal advice declaring Robodebt unlawful from mid 2018 and did nothing.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Intro grab features Ms Annette Musolino, 1 March 2023 

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

In this episode, Caroline takes us through how DHS responds in early 2017 when things start hitting the fan. Aggressive defence is the name of game in the media, while in the background frantic efforts are made to improve 'the customer interface'.
We talk about how DHS backed themselves into a corner, and despite a lot of senior attention to solve problems,  never picked up the rock to check what was underneath.
We also talk about how hard it is to fix something while it's operating.
We finish by discussing the importance of departments maintaining relationships with stakeholders irrespective of the flavour of the government of the day.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Intro grab features Ms Tenille Collins and Commissioner Catherine Holmes, 3 March 2023 

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

In this episode, Caroline takes us through the reaction of DSS in early 2017, when it becomes clear DHS hadn't abided by the agreement they thought they had to kill Robodebt. 
However, far from handing DHS over to the Ombudsman, DSS engage in a process that looks like ‘a conspiracy to conceal stuff up’, in the inimitable words of Commissioner Holmes. 
We discuss how hard it is to check in on the work of other agencies, the unlikely role of Christmas, and the awful impulse to keep things tidy that leads to a cover-up.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be. 

Intro grab features Mr Finn Pratt AO PSM and Commissioner Catherine Holmes, 10 November 2022 

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

In this episode, Caroline takes us through the tick-tock of how, in late January and early February 2015, DSS went from having legal advice that said Robodebt was unlawful, to waving it through the Budget process.
We discuss how something that is 'not consistent with legislation' is actually 'illegal', and the impacts of softening language on the bowels of ministers.
Alison gives us a primer on the Columbia Effect, and how the over-simplification of technical detail led to a disastrous outcome from a meeting between DSS and DHS on 20th February 2015.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Intro grab features Counsel Assisting, Mr Derek Greggery KC, and Ms Catherine Halbert, 8 December 2022 

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

In the second episode of two episodes exploring the culture in DHS and how it contributed to Robodebt, Danielle takes us through the pressures being experienced on the frontline in Centrelink.
From the rise of employee engagement surveys, the use of temporary labour hire, to the decline of unions, this episode explores the importance (and challenge) of knowing what's going on the frontlines.
You can find the Centrelink culture review we discussed here.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Intro grab features Mr Scott Britton, 8 November 2022 

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

The first of two episodes looking at the role the culture of DHS played in enabling Robodebt to get off the ground, and keep moving, in spite of all the red flags.
In this episode, Danielle talks us through the ways in which Secretary Kathryn Campbell and her leadership team set the tone, and the efforts of later leaders like Renee Leon to fix the culture.
We discuss our own experiences of trying to improve the culture of teams, and how hard you have to work to make safe spaces.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Intro grab features Ms Tenille Collins, 3 March 2023.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

Where did Robodebt come from? In this episode, we track the genesis of Robodebt in the heart of the compliance division in the Department of Human Services in late 2014. This is a cautionary tale about a bright idea that gets fast tracked by senior leadership, who have their own reasons for taking it forward, and aren't very interested in whether what they’re pushing will actually work. 
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be. 

*Hey, this is one of our early recordings, we’re still getting it together and Caroline had COVID. Stick with us.

Intro grab features Mr Chris Birrer and Commissioner Catherine Holmes, 7 November 2023.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

An explainer episode on what Robodebt is, how it unfolded, and why public servants should be interested in finding out more. Far from a political conspiracy, the Robodebt Royal Commission has shown that it was a creature of the public service. Join Alison, Danielle and Caroline, as they reflect on the lessons of Robodebt through the lens of their public service careers. 
Credit to Rick Morton for the incisive way he explains Robodebt, which we have cribbed in this episode. You can read his even better description in his Monthly essay here.
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

*Hey, this is one of our early recordings, we’re still getting it together and Caroline had COVID. Stick with us. 

Intro grab features the Hon Alan Tudge and Commissioner Catherine Holmes 

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!