Centrelink is not alone in having a push and pull between the investment required to get it right up front, versus the convenience of fixing things up later.

We discuss the old chestnut 'fast, cheap, good - pick two' , and the less obvious costs of running lean - whether in pandemic preparedness, strategic policy capacity, workforce burnout.

Finally, Danielle proposes an end to end definition of efficiency, that captures costs we move to other parts of government, or end up paying later on.

• ANAO Report on Accuracy and Timeliness of Welfare Payments (2023)
• The UK Covid Inquiry Podcast

Intro grab from Sue Vardon AO Bonus Episode.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

If you knew your IT system was unreliable, wouldn't you keep some manual checks to make sure it doesn't go wrong? Not if you're Post Office, and desperately looking for savings. Especially if you've just lost your biggest revenue source, in the form of the Benefits Agency and the cash in the tills it provides.

In the final episode of our first (but not last!) mini-series on the Post Office scandal, we examine how the Post Office 'forgot' what it knew about Horizon's unreliability, and then removed key guard rails that might have prevented false prosecutions.


Opening grab from Mr Stevens KC (Counsel Assisting the Inquiry) and Kathryn Parker (former Post Office training), 13 January 2023.
Subsequent grab from Mr Beer KC (Counsel Assisting) and Susan Harding (former Post office Business Process Architect), 22 February 2023.

For thorough and detailed coverage of the Post Office Scandal, start with the reporting of Nick Wallis, including his BBC podcast, the Great Post Office Trial.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Despite hundreds of technical issues and continuing delays in meeting quality requirements, in January 2000, Post Office Board accepted the Horizon IT system as its own.

In this episode, we discuss how hard it is to say 'stop' in the middle of a game of whack-a-mole of problem fixing, especially when there are institutional incentives to keep going.

We also have strong feelings about the idea of 'minimum viable products' where the delivery of social services - and the founding of prosecutions - are concerned.

Opening grab from Mr Stevens KC (Counsel Assisting the Inquiry) and Stuart Sweetman (former Managing Director of Post Office Counters Limited), 17 November 2022.
Subsequent grab from Mr Jeremy Folkes (former Infrastructure Assurance Team Leader, Horizon Programme, Post Office Counters Ltd) and Mr Beer KC (Counsel Assisting),  17 November 2022.

For thorough and detailed coverage of the Post Office Scandal, start with the reporting of Nick Wallis, including his BBC podcast, the Great Post Office Trial.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Why was the Post Office's Horizon IT system so error ridden in the first place?

And is the false conviction of nearly 1000 postmasters really Tony Blair's fault in the end? (Spoiler alert: probably not.)

In this episode, Caroline takes us through why Horizon was probably doomed from the start, with Post Office and the Benefits Agency shackled together to buy an ICT system through an elaborately structured, too clever by half Private Finance Initiative (PFI).

Among other things, we talk about the role of first ministers and Cabinet in resolving disagreements between portfolios with genuinely different interests; the impossibility of outsourcing political risk; and the challenge of working out the truth when everyone you speak to has an agenda.

• Harriet Harman, Minister for Social Services, February 1998 letter to PM Blair can be found here.
• Geoff Mulgan's December 1998 minute to PM Blair can be found here, and his reflections after appearing at the Inquiry can be found on his blog here.

Opening grab from Lord Alistair Darling, former Chief Secretary of Treasury, 29 November 2022.
Subsequent grab from Sir Geoffrey Mulgan, former civil servant No. 10 Downing St, 2 December 2022.

For thorough and detailed coverage of the Post Office Scandal, start with the reporting of Nick Wallis, including his BBC podcast, the Great Post Office Trial.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Season 2 kicks off with a deeper look at the British Post Office fiasco.

Gaslighting critics, false confessions, aggressive litigation tactics, challenges with redress, and no accountability from senior leaders - sound familiar?

• Nick Wallis BBC4 podcast The Great Post Office Trial
• Alison's recommended listening re psychological safety, Adam Grant's Think Again
• On the 'objective review' conducted by the Post Office in 2010 to make the strongest case as to why Horizon should be trusted, see, Nick Wallis Rod Ismay: The Useful Idiot
• Tony Moore 'Sorry' not such a hard work for Peter Beattie to say  
• Sylvan Baker, Mr Bates vs The Post Office: why docudramas have the power to inspire real social and political change
• Channel 7 has secured the Australian rights to Mr Bates v Post Office.

Intro grab features Paula Vennells, Chief Executive of Post Office, appearing before a Parliamentary Select Committee in 2015.
Outro grab features Peter Beattie apologising for excluding athletes from the Commonwealth Games closing ceremony in 2018.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

In this special holiday bonus, inaugural CE of Centrelink Sue Vardon AO joins Danielle and Caroline to talk through her submission to the Robodebt Royal Commission. Her submission outlines the changes in Centrelink that made Robodebt possible - as well as the things that have stayed the same.

She also takes us through her career, from being the only social worker in Wagga Wagga through to leading the establishment of Centrelink.

Along the way, she covers the difference between being a 'customer' and a 'recipient', the snap back of bureaucratic and hierarchical cultures, the value of operational experience and much more.

Grab at around 1 hr 6 min is Commissioner Holmes and Kathryn Campbell AO CSC and Bar, November 11 2022.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Sue Vardon AO has 23 years of experience as a public sector Chief Executive, including CE of the Office of Public Sector Reform, the Public Service Commissioner and the CE of the Department for Correctional Services in South Australia. She was inaugural CE of Centrelink in 1997, a position she held until 2004.  She finished her full-time public service career as CE of the South Australian Department for Families and Communities. She was the first Telstra Businesswoman of the Year.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Much of the evidence heard by the Royal Commission was from people who didn't know what was happening - either because they were too junior to have all the information, or, if they were senior, too busy to have stopped and asked the question.

Provoked by Dr Darren O'Donovan, in this episode we unpack practical steps that create organisations that can't look away.

The discussion covers
- capturing the right data, and sharing it routinely and publicly
- risk as a frame for empowering people to push unwelcome information up
- the challenges with record keeping for institutional continuity, including the lost art of capturing decisions

Referenced in the episode:
- The Checklist Manifesto by Atul Gawande, on building safety culture
- The Squid Hunter by David Grann (Alison's giant squid article)

Intro and further grabs from our special bonus episode interview with Dr Darren O'Donovan, Senior Lecturer at La Trobe Law School.
Later grabs from: Mr Finn Pratt AO PSM and Commissioner Catherine Holmes, 10 November 2022, and Ms Serena Wilson and Mr Justin Greggery KC, 9 November 2022.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

In this in-depth and wide-ranging interview,  Dr Darren O'Donovan, Senior Lecturer at La Trobe University Law School, reflects on what it was like being on the outside looking in at Robodebt.

*This  was recorded before the release of the Government's response to the Royal Commission.*

Some references from the interview include:

• Frank Kafka Before the Law
• Pamela Herd and Donald Moynihan Administrative Burden: Policymaking by other means (2019)
• Homi Bhabha The Other Question: Stereotype, discrimination and the discourse of colonialism (2001)
• Evidence from Michael Kerr-Brown re ATO being well positioned to push back against the DHS request, transcript from 12 December 2022 p. 1615
• Nick Gill, Nothing Personal? Geographies of Governing and Activism in the British Asylum System (2015)
• Darren O'Donovan  Victims now know they were right about robodebt all along at The Conversation

Grabs included are:

• Angus Scott KC, Louise Macleod (Ombudsman) and Commissioner Holmes, 8 March
• Jason McNamara (DHS) and Angus Scott KC, 5 December 2022
• Commissioner Holmes and Michael Kerr-Brown (ATO), 12 December 2022
• Tim Ffrench (DHS), 22 February 2022

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

In this episode, Danielle and Alison bring the conflict on their views of behavioural insights. Danielle thinks it's a revelation that government started thinking about its customers and what works for them. Alison thinks it's oversold, and not always deployed in the interests of the people. Caroline wonders if we can all just get along.

Ultimately, the listeners win.

References from the episode include:

• If Books Could Kill podcast on Nudge
• Richard Thaler and Cass Sunstein Nudge: Improving decisions about health, wealth and happiness (2009).
• On the replicability crisis in behavioural economics, see Gideon Lewis-Kraus 'They studied dishonesty. Was their work a lie?' New Yorker. 

The intro grab features Jason McNamara (DHS) and Angus Scott KC, 5 December 2022

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Christmas leave plays an outsize role in Robodebt. Danielle takes us through some of the questions raised about Christmas leave, including who holds the can when people are on leave, and how 'hovering' while you're on leave can confuse and disempower.

She also makes a case that government should never, ever shut down over Christmas, because our work never ends.

Meanwhile, Alison gives another excellent life hack - this time about taking work emails off your phone on leave.

As promised in the episode, here is Commissioner Holmes' finding about what happened to the requested legal advice: "The Commission finds that Ms Campbell instructed DHS officers to cease the process of responding to Mr Jackson’s request for advice, motivated by a concern that the unlawfulness of the Scheme might be exposed to the Ombudsman in the course of its investigation." (see page 189)

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Intro grab features Commissioner Holmes and Ms Annette Musolino, 30 January 2023.

Later grab features Mr Derek Greggery KC and Ms Kathryn Campbell, 7 March 2023.

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!