theKindFaith Bible Conversations

Today’s is a Question & Response episode focusing on our Apocalyptic series from a few months back. Tune in next week for another Q&R on our women series! We love questions!

Keep any questions you have about this topic, or any other topic coming! We’ll do our best to answer them in future episodes. Email [email protected]

SHOW NOTES:

[00:12] Introduction: We’re reviewing some questions about the apocalypse today. Specifically on the difference between reading the Bible as “code” versus “symbol.”

[01:37] Question 1: Does the first word of the Bible give us a coded prophecy about the end-times? This response tackles the question of numerology and “code-breaking” in the Bible. (spoiler: it’s not a code!) This is a way of reading the Bible that doesn’t take the actual Bible seriously enough.

[05:15] Is the Bible we have good enough? or do we think we need to fix it?

[07:47] The guys discuss a set of “guardrails” for how we can look for patterns and numbers without making it too much about “code-breaking.” Patterns were placed intentionally because the authors were artistic and literary geniuses, but they are there to accentuate the themes already in the passage, not as a code about something else entirely.

examples: Genesis 1 and the repetition of “7”; Matthew 1 and the repetition of “14”; and the benefit (or not) of reading the original languages.

[21:53] Question 2: If Jesus warned his followers to flee the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, should we not expect him to take his church out of the coming tribulation? This is another angle to talk about the rapture. Would God allow his people to suffer wrath and tribulation? What is the role of suffering for Christians?

When does God say, ‘That one’s not your fight’?

We’re tackling the big topic of women in leadership and authority structures in the church! This week Jeff and Tyler turn to Ephesians 5 and talk about relationships within the household. What exactly does it mean to “submit”?

We love questions! Any questions you have about this topic, or any bible-related question Email [email protected]

SHOW NOTES:

[00:12] Introduction - initial questions and thoughts.

[12:06] Ephesians 5:21-22 - figuring out submission

[23:40] Does the emphasis on the male head of household reinforce the status quo?

[31:50] Is there an authority structure in this passage? A closer look at husbands and wives.

[37:55] Wrap-up with a look at some practical ways forward into leading and applying this to our lives.

MORE DETAILS:

[00:12] Introduction: the guys talk through some of the ways this passage has been used… does it impact church hierarchy? How does “authority” factor in here?

The idea of the “tie-breaker” doesn’t fit in this text.

“The only reason a tie-breaker vote would need to exist is if Jesus wasn’t real” - Tyler

[12:06] Ephesians 5:21-22 the elusive “submit.”

A little Greek: Verse 22 literally says, “wives to your own husbands as to the Lord” You have to go searching for the verb “submit”! This is a strong case for attaching verse 21 to verse 22 and not to 20 since you can’t even understand verse 22 without it.

“Submit to one another” should be the header with each relationship listed as a bullet point expanding on what submission should look like… Something like this:

I. "Submit to one another"

all of these are a subset filling out the original mandate that all should be in mutual submission.

[23:40] Isn’t Paul reinforcing the status quo and the central role of a man in the household?

This household code of Paul’s is actually radically counter-cultural.

The one with the power is not called to enforce or police the others to get in line, but he is called to his own sort of submissive leadership.

[31:50] Is “authority” in this passage? Wives and husbands in particular.

The one thing that we might be able to conclude from this passage: Husband’s are meant to die for their wives, and the wives “submission” is to let them! - John Goldingay

“headship” (back to episode 3 of this Women in Church series) is much more likely about “source” than about hierarchy or authority structures.

[37:55] Wrap-up… passivity and discipleship

Both men and women need to ask the hard question about whether they are passively shirking the roles and Gifts God has given to each. We don’t need to super-impose a particular way but can help each think through the ways they are called to step out and take an active role in their family, their faith, and the world.

The talk about “authority” might actually be a way of placing blame, of shirking our own roles and gifts, of taking control rather than trusting in God.

We’re tackling the big topic of women in leadership and authority structures in the church! This week Jeff and Tyler turn to more of the “tricky passages” in the New Testament - Can women lead men? Should women remain silent? Who can be elders? and more!

We love questions! Any questions you have about this topic, or any bible-related question Email [email protected]

SHOW NOTES:

[00:12] Introduction

[03:16] 1 Corinthians 14:33-37. Should Women really remain silent?

MORE DETAIL:

[00:12] Introduction

[03:16] 1 Corinthians 14:33-37. How do we deal with this passage and not just write it off? It seems that many churches come up with ways around this passage without taking it head on. This passage seems an “all or nothing” sort of text so what can we make of it?

[21:00] 1 Timothy 2:11-15. “I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority…” ?

[36:35] 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1-2. “The husband of one wife”… must an elder/ overseer be male?

The sentence in Greek reads, An overseer must be a “One woman man.” The grammar does technically mean a “husband of one wife.” But the emphasis is on the “oneness” rather than the “maleness.” There is no word for a gender neutral statement like, “a person with one spouse.” They would use the male gendered words to refer to a mixed group.

The guys then talk about how both Timothy and Titus uses the word “presbyter” (elder) to refer to both men and women, but it doesn’t always come through in our translations!

We’re tackling the big topic of women in leadership and authority structures in the church! This week Jeff and Tyler turn to the “tricky passages” in the New Testament and look at 1 Corinthians. What roles do women have in the church service, and what’s with those head-coverings?

We love questions! Any questions you have about this topic, or any bible-related question Email [email protected]

SHOW NOTES:

[00:12] Introduction: We’re diving into 1 Corinthians today with some of the trickier texts around women in church leadership. Tyler shares “the list”!

Then they discuss the statement, “when women lead, guys go fishing.” Is male-passivity an excuse to not allow women leading?

[15:32] 1 Corinthians 11. Headship and head-coverings?

MORE DETAILS:

[00:12] Introduction. Fact-Check: Tyler made the list of all the specific women and men leading and in the center of the New Testament Church. The results: 37 women to 93 men - 28% of this first generation were women! This coming out of 1st century Judaism which was very male-dominated seems very significant.

On male-passivity: if men are passive then of course that’s a problem! But that’s not a women-in-leadership problem, it’s a discipleship problem! Tyler argues that if a leader becomes passive simply because they are I the presence of another strong leader, then that’s a discipleship problem. Jeff offers some good counter-points to what the other side might say to this idea.

[15:32] 1 Corinthians 11:1-16. What can we know? What questions can we ask?

What about headship? What are men and women doing in the church service? What about head-coverings? Because of the angels? Whose authority?

Translations issues: the words “man” and “women” is the same word for “husband” and “wife.” Only the context tells you which one to use. Read ESV next to NIV to see how they interpret wives vs. women.

Verse 10: is the authority a “symbol” of the man’s on her head? or is it her authority? (ESV vs. NIV)

What can we know? Both men and women are called to the exact same role - “pray and prophecy” What do those roles entail?

What might “headship” mean? It can mean authority and hierarchy. It can also mean “source” - like the “head” of a river, or a trail-head. “headship” here more likely means “source” then hierarchy. Tyler unpacks some research into the Greek history of the word and the likelihood that the meaning here is “source.” The guys talk about the trinity and what “headship” might mean in a God-Jesus-Spirit dynamic?

In 1 Cor. 11 Paul is clearly talking about Genesis 2 and how the man is the “source” of the woman, but now we are the offspring of women.

What about head-coverings? Paul seems to be saying, Yes! Men and women are different! We need to retain our identity when we lead. Men need to lead like men, women need to lead like women. Both do the exact same roles, but the expression of those roles are unique to the individual. Don’t force women to succeed by acting like a man. Paul is actually creating a third way - in both Judaism and Pagan religion the men covered their head while praying; Paul isn’t actually caving to culture, he’s creating a new Christian unique culture.

Whose Authority? Verse 10 does not actually say that the woman needs a symbol of the man’s authority; it actually just says that the women should have “authority over her head.” It’s her authority, not anyone else’s!

Reference: Gordon D. Fee, The First Epistle to the Corinthians, NICNT Commentary series.

We’re tackling the big topic of women in leadership and authority structures in the church! This week Jeff and Tyler turn to the New Testament and look at the portraits of actual women leaders throughout. From the Gospels, to Acts, to the Letters, there are women in prominent and central roles from the beginning. to Genesis to look at how relationships between men and women got their start, and what happened after that.

We love questions! Any questions you have about this topic, or any bible-related question Email [email protected]

SHOW NOTES:

[00:12] Intro and summary from last week.

[02:38] Why isn’t the Bible more balanced on this topic?

[6:21] Why did Jesus choose 12 male disciples to be his core group?

[10:05] examples of women at the center of Jesus’ movement - The Gospels

MORE DETAILS:

[02:38] Why isn’t the Bible “fully balanced” when we look at leaders and roles throughout the whole Bible. We are dealing with a male-dominated culture from the ancient world, so yes, we should expect that women stepping into more prominent leadership roles would be rare. However, when women do lead there doesn’t seem to be as much of a push-back or shock as there seems to exist in today’s culture.

It may be rare, but there’s no “outrage” when women transcend the typical role.

[6:21] So why did Jesus choose 12 men to be his core disciples/apostles?

Jesus is Yahweh, regathering Israel’s 12 tribes around himself! It’s radical that he is not one of the 12, but the one calling all 12 together. The 12 sons of Abraham are being reformed as these 12 men. It would be incomprehensible for him to have women fill this symbolic role… and yet there are clear examples of women at the center of this movement.

[10:05] examples of women clearly at the center of this movement:

Luke 8:1-3 - The women who financed the ministry; and women like Joanna were likely some of Luke’s primary sources for writing his Gospel.

Luke 10:38-42 - Mary and Martha—Mary sitting at Jesus feet was a typical male role of a disciple of a Rabbi; Martha wants Mary to step back into her female role and Jesus commends her for being a disciple instead!

Luke 23:47,49, 55 - There is a big emphasis on these women being “eyewitnesses” to all these events. Luke is building his case and giving even more credence to these women.

Luke 24:1-12 - The “apostles to the apostles” Significance of having women be the first witnesses of the resurrection.

So how does this relate to women having authority to teach men? What message is more important than the good news that Jesus died and rose again? And that message was entrusted first to these women!

[26:10] Women leading in Acts and Romans

Acts 8:3 - Saul rounds up both men and women because it was known that both men and women were leading. Someone like Saul only needed to stop the leaders of this movement.

Acts 16:11 - In Phillipi, Lydia starts a church in her home. The only reason we don’t immediately think of her as the leader of this church is because her name is female. Backed up by the letter to Phillipi where the two central leaders mentioned by Paul—Euodia and Syntyche—are also women!

Romans 16 is so important! Phoebe is a deacon (sorry ESV!) commissioned by Paul to deliver, read aloud, and teach the book of Romans to the churches in Rome! The first exegete and preacher of this magnificent letter is a woman!

ESV translation butchers verse 7- Junia (a female) is outstanding among the apostles, not simply well known to the apostles!

We’re tackling the big topic of women in leadership and authority structures in the church! This week Jeff and Tyler turn to the beginning, to Genesis to look at how relationships between men and women got their start, and what happened after that.

We love questions! Any questions you have about this topic, or any bible-related question Email [email protected]

SHOW NOTES:

[00:12] Introduction:

[04:19] Genesis 1

[14:50] Genesis 2

[22:12] Genesis 3

[33:16] Genesis 4

[40:20] Wrap up and Summary.

MORE DETAILS:

[00:12] Raising the questions: Are women allowed to have leadership in the church? A short intro of our background, and then we’re going all the way back to the beginning.

[04:19] Genesis 1:26-29

God’s image: God created “man”, in the image of God he created “him”, male and female he created “them.”

The core of the “image” is relational. it’s also primarily about “rule.” Male and Female together are created as God’s image-bearing Kings and Queens to co-rule alongside God over creation. If we are isolated from the other than we are less able to bear God’s image.

Ray Andersen - Divine preference (God’s ideal) vs. biblical precedent (God condescending to broken humanity)

[14:50] Genesis 2:15-18

“it is not good for man to be alone… I will make a helper”

“helper” (ezer) is a strong, powerful word. Every other time it’s used to describe God! And when it’s used it parallels words like deliverer, strength, rescue. (see Exodus 18:4; Deuteronomy 33:7, and so many more) This has ZERO context of any subservient or demeaning ideas attached to it here in Genesis 2.

God takes from Adam’s side or rib: This also points to a mutuality and equality. Woman is the helper who stands alongside the Man equally.

[22:12] Genesis 3.

3:6 the man was standing right next to her! The woman deceived, but the man passively rebelling? That strong word “helper” could have applied to the man in this moment. He should have helped her and did not.

3:16 is NOT another “John 3:16… it is a curse and should never be emulated.

“in pain” - this is a word that means more emotional, heartache. While the woman has physical pain in birthing, it’s also the pain of Eve watching one son kill another; it’s the word that shows up in Genesis 6:6 when God “grieved” over his creation.

“your desire will be toward your husband” [PET PEEVE time: ESV adds “your desire will be contrary to your husband”] …”and he will rule over you.” Both of these roles- the woman finding her worth and desire in the man, or the man abusing that and ruling over her- are wrong! We were created to co-rule over creation, there should be no “ruling” over another human.

[33:16] Genesis 4 rounds out our picture so far

4:1 The art form of ambiguity: “I have gotten a man along with the LORD?” Eve seems to be saying that she’s become like God… just what the snake tempted her with. Whereas 4:25 has a lot more humility.

Chapter 4 plays out the “pain” that Eve has to endure as she watches her son kill her other son.

4:7 is the exact same phrase as 3:16 “Sins desire is for you, and you must rule over it.” What’s going on? Just as the man’s and woman’s relationship is broken by the fall, brother and brother is broken by fall. Ultimately our struggle is against “sin,” as depicted here in 4:7.

[40:20] Wrap-Up: Genesis 1 & 2 sets the Divine preference for how relationships were supposed to go; Genesis 3 & 4 shows us the brokenness of humanity after the Fall that will require the later Biblical precedent to condescend to our weakness and sin.

More Apocalypse! Jeff and Tyler are finishing up their conversation (for now!) about “apocalyptic literature” by walking through the Book of Revelation again and tackling some of the most popular questions like, “what about the 144,000?” “What about the Millennium?” and “Is Jesus coming back to kill all his enemies?” Dive in with us!

Email us your questions at [email protected]

SHOW NOTES:

[00:12] Introduction

[1:40] Who are the 144,000 in Revelation 7?

[12:26] What about the Millennium? (chapter 20)

[25:16] Will Jesus come back to kill all his enemies? Revelation 19

MORE DETAIL:

[1:40] How are we to interpret the 144,000?

An important literary technique is at play “hearing” vs. “seeing”… Revelation 5:2-6 John “hears” that the one worthy is “the lion” but he “sees” a lamb standing though slain. Throughout the book John hears one thing and sees something else.

Revelation 7:4 “I heard the number of those sealed” but in 7:9 “after this I looked…”

The 12,000 from each tribe is symbolic. 12 as a number of the tribes of Israel… 12 x 12 x 1,000 is a way of saying “the entire number of God’s people.” Another clue that this is symbolic lies in the fact that the list of the tribes are different than any other place. Ephraim and Dan are missing, Levi and Joseph are there, Judah is first. This is symbolic rather than literal.

[12:26] The Millennium (chapter 20). Is Jesus coming back to begin a golden-age, 1,000 year reign? Will the church usher in the 1,000 year age before Jesus’ coming? Or is the whole image another symbol?

John seems to be connecting us to several other passages where Jesus is currently reigning—Matthew 26, Acts 1, 1 Corinthians 15. Right now Christ is King and will continue to reign until he puts all his enemies under his foot. John is describing the same thing as 1 Corinthians 15:25 with apocalyptic symbolism.

a bit on “the satan”… what might it mean if the satan is in the pit but not yet destroyed? Our accuser’s power is broken, but he’s not completely gone. The satan can still sway individuals, but his ability to accuse and deceive the nations has been broken.

One potential problem with this view: verse 4-5 talks about the martyrs being resurrected in the “first resurrection”… this certainly seems like we might be waiting for a resurrection to usher in the 1,000 years. Tyler unpacks his current take on how to see this talk of 1st and 2nd resurrections and 1st and 2nd deaths as a symbol of our current age in Christ.

Tom Wright: What we get about the future is like a “signpost pointing into a fog.” We don’t know a lot about what the end will really look like, but we know we’re heading in the right direction. We don’t need to be too hung up on knowing the true landscape will be when we get there.

[25:16] Is Jesus coming back to lead a massacre? NO! Revelation 19 gives a picture of Jesus coming, stained in blood, with a sword coming out of his mouth. What is going on?

Some say Jesus came the first time in peace and died for his enemies, but the second coming will be with a sword and a massacre. That is not what the text is trying to tell us.

This figure is Jesus from chapter 1. He shows up covered in blood BEFORE the battle. This is Jesus’ blood, just like the bloody lamb in chapter 5. The sword coming from his mouth is a symbol of “The Word of God,” not an actual sword.

Revelation 12:11 the saints conquer by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony… The whole point is that the power of the cross is all Jesus needed to conquer the enemy. To pick up a sword after all that would completely defeat his purpose!

More Apocalypse! Jeff and Tyler dive into the Hebrew Bible book of Daniel. This is one of the original apocalyptic texts in the Bible and there’s a lot to unpack. The more we can understand the symbols in this book, the more the book of Revelation and other apocalyptic texts start to make sense!

SHOW NOTES:

[00:12] Introduction. Review of apocalyptic, and background for Daniel.

[03:40] unpacking Daniel 7

[06:03] Why is Alexander the Great the G.O.A.T. ?!

[17:04] The role of Daniel in later Jewish and Christian interpretation. The importance of the “beast” symbol.

[22:40] The Son of Man Vision and Jesus. Suffering leads to victory?

MORE DETAIL:

[00:12] Background on Daniel (see Jeremiah 29) Daniel and friends are examples of how to “seek the welfare” of Babylon while staying faithful to God.

Daniel 7-12 is the main “apocalyptic” section of the book.

[03:40] Daniel chapter 7. The Revelation takes up so many of these same images—winds, beasts, clouds etc.

[06:03] Alexander the Great is in the background in most of these images. Especially Daniel 8. Alexander conquered the world by the age of 32; then his kingdom was immediately split into 4, with one eventually coming to power.

In the original understanding of these texts the “fourth beast” of chapter 7 is most likely Alexander (320’s BC), leading to the Seleucids, leading to Antiochus IV Epiphanies (160’s BC). Antiochus’ persecution of the Jews would have been one of the worst things the people could imagine. It’s the reason we have the book of the Maccabees, where we get the story of Hanukkah.

[17:04] How Daniel continues to speak today even if it’s original focus was on Alexander the Great etc… Jesus and other early Christians and Jews continued to re-read Daniel in new fresh ways.

“Beasts” link us back to Genesis 1 and 2…

[22:20] The Son of Man. the one to finally rule over the beasts like Genesis 1 pointed to.

This all points to Jesus! Matthew 26:64 is Jesus quoting Daniel 7. “Coming on the clouds” in NOT a description of transportation, but an image about power and authority.

How does suffering, and particularly the suffering of the Son of Man lead to God’s victory? It’s all there in Daniel!

Is there a rapture? Our answer might surprise you! Jeff and Tyler talk about ‘interpreting the times,’ the rapture, and what this has to do with us today. This one brings up a LOT of questions, and we’d love to hear them!

Send questions you have about the “end times” (or anything else!) to [email protected]

SHOW NOTES:

[00:12] Introduction: Ground to cover; “interpreting the times”

[10:28] Wait, there’s no rapture?

[32:36] Practical: How what we think about the rapture impacts our view of creation now.

MORE DETAILS:

[00:12] Luke 12:54-56 interpreting the “times.” certainly we are always called to urgency and watchfulness… but are we in some sort of “heightened awareness”? No!

The “times” Jesus was calling immediate attention to in many of his “end times’ speeches was actually the destruction of the Jewish temple in A.D. 70, which would happen within a generation and became a very important call to urgency.

Matthew 24 Jesus just predicted the fall of the temple… and the next thing that happens is the disciples sit down on the Mt. of Olives and ask “when will this happen” (see Matthew 24:3).

[10:28] So there’s no rapture?

Referenced: Walter Brueggemann, The Land.

Everything in the life of Israel was about migration toward the land… When we rebel against God, God exiles us from the land. The idea that the faithful would be taken from the land in the rapture would make zero sense in a biblical worldview.

Matthew 24:36-44 “two will be at the field, one taken, one left” But you want to be LEFT BEHIND! To be “taken” means you’re dead! (see verse 37-39!) New T-Shirt Idea: “Left Behind and Lovin’ it!”

Mark 13:14 “Let the reader understand”… was Mark’s hint to his first readers to get out of Jerusalem and save themselves from the Roman Army! (And it worked!)

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. multiple layers here: {Big shout-out to Tom Wright!} One, this is an image of a town exiting the town to welcome a visiting caesar outside the gates to escort him back into the town. The expectation is not that the Caesar would then take them away from Thessaloniki, but that he was coming to them.

Two, there are way more verbs and images about Jesus coming, rather than any emphasis on us leaving.

Three, there are multiple Hebrew Bible passages at play here—Exodus 19; Daniel 7; Ezekiel 1 to name a few!

[32:36] Practical take-away… how much “this world” matters. How what we think about the rapture matters for how we view the creation. and more on why the guys don’t think the rapture is biblical.

What exactly is in the Bible? Jeff and Tyler are breaking down 6 major sections in the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament to help us gain clarity when reading this amazing book. Today we turn to The Book of the Revelation, The Apocalypse!

Send questions you have about The Revelation (or anything else!) to [email protected]

SHOW NOTES:

[00:12] introduction- SPOILER ALERT! “Apocalypse” does NOT mean the “end of the world”!

[3:35] “apocalyptic literature” as a type of early Jewish literature.

[11:30] Didn’t Jesus call us to prepare for the End Times?

[19:30] unpacking The Four Horsemen and The Mark of the Beast

[34:20] Conclusion and come back next week for The Apocalypse round 2!

More Detail:

[00:12] “Apocalypse” is the Greek word for “revelation”, it does not mean “end of the world.” The book is the Revelation (singular), and it’s the book about the “revelation of Jesus” (Revelation 1:1). This is a book about Jesus.

[3:35] The genre of writing called “apocalyptic”. It’s not a “code” to break, but “symbols” to help us interpret the world and God’s dealings with us.

Michael Gorman, Reading Revelation Responsibly. 2011.

Examples of “symbol” rather than code: Babylon is an oppressive empire that takes on different iterations in any age.

The cross as a symbol for christians today of the real event that happened 2,000 years ago.

Political Cartoons are a type of parallel to what “apocalyptic” literature did in the 1st century.

[11:30] Didn’t Jesus speak about the end times? Yes, and No! The call to urgency, watchfulness, and preparation is always the call to the church. We are not waiting for some “end time” to finally become watchful.

Mark 13; Matthew 24 etc. is more about Jesus predicting the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 than any look for the 2nd coming. The theme is remain faithful, keep your eyes on Jesus, don’t worship false gods or give your allegiance to any but Jesus. But there’s always something seeking our worship.

[19:30] The book alludes to the entire Old Testament over and over and over again.

The best way to understand Revelation is to read the entire Bible over and over and over again.

The four horsemen: This comes from Zechariah 1. These are symbols of God taking responsibility for the injustice of the nations and bringing his people back from exile. We’re not looking for actual horse riders!

The Mark of the Beast: A symbol of allegiance- Whose mark will you take? Revelation 13:16 This was a call to worship the rulers of Rome and somehow this mark allows one to buy and sell in the marketplace. The “mark” is about economy, politics, and religion. It’s a call to not compromise your ethics, your worship, your allegiance for the sake of doing well in business and society.

[34:20] Conclusion: We should be able to read this book like we read all the Letters. This was a book written for believers 2,000 years ago about how to worship Jesus and not compromise with the world. And in that way it will continue to speak today just as Romans, Philippians etc. continues to be God’s Word for us today.