This week I spoke with Sr. Danielle Victoria Lussier and Sr. Theresa Aletheia Noble from the Sisters of the Little Way of Beauty, Truth, and Goodness. We discussed their new audio documentary, Descent Into Light, about adult abuse in the Church. Sr. Theresa and Sr. Danielle have been real sources of consolation for me over the past couple of years, and it’s such an honor to have them on the podcast.

The Sisters of the Little Way of Beauty, Truth, and Goodness, are a private association of the faithful intending to become a religious institute. As religious sisters and consecrated women, they live a mission of listening and solidarity with people on the fringes of the Church, especially those who have been wounded, scandalized, or abused by members of the Church.

LINKS

Sisters of the Little Wayhttps://www.sistersofthelittleway.com/

Descent Into Light podcasthttps://www.sistersofthelittleway.com/podcast

Spiritual Abuse Workshophttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-b5e

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

LIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids.

Sarah Carter and I went into this conversation ready to talk about her excellent article, “The Evangelization Mistake I Made For Years: Missionary discipleship isn’t supposed to feel like this.” And then we spent the first half of our time discussing deconstruction and Henri de Lubac! Sarah is insightful and vulnerable, it was a joy to have this conversation with her. I hope you enjoy it.

Sarah Carter lives in St. Paul MN with her husband and three children. She is the author of Recovering Catholic and Pope Leo Weekly on Substack. Sarah has a masters degree in theology from the Saint Paul Seminary in St. Paul, MN with specialization in Catholic social teaching and Pope Francis’ encyclical Laudato si’

LINKS

Sarah’s article: The Evangelization Mistake I Made For Years

https://recoveringcatholic.substack.com/p/thats-not-what-missionary-disciple

Recovering Catholic

https://recoveringcatholic.substack.com/

Pope Leo Weekly

https://popeleoweekly.substack.com/

Ann Yeong’s podcast: Spiritual Abuse in Evangelisation and Discipleship

https://www.becomingmepodcast.com/spiritual-abuse-in-evangelisation-and-discipleship-with-paul-fahey/

Spiritual Abuse Workshop

https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-b5e

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

LIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids.

Today, I’m sharing a conversation I had a few weeks ago with Ann Yeong, for her podcast, Becoming Me, about spiritual abuse within the context of evangelization. We talk about how a distorted image of God can lead to a distorted evangelization where we “proclaim God in a way contrary to God himself.” We also discuss the critical role of personal integrity and the healthy use of authority for those in positions of spiritual leadership. It was so good to have this conversation with Ann. I hope you enjoy listening.

Ann Yeong is the Founder of Integrō Formation and the host of the Becoming Me podcast. Ann has over 15 years of experience in human and spiritual formation in the Catholic Church in Singapore. She served as Director, Youth & Young Adults Office in the Church of St Mary of the Angels and started the first parish-based Office for New Evangelisation in Singapore in 2012. In 2014, Ann left full-time parish employment to focus on speaking about the interior life and meeting individuals & small groups for spiritual conversation and formation. Ann is particularly passionate about: the lived experience of complex trauma and spiritual/religious trauma’s impact on our relationship with God; the existential crisis of spiritual midlife ‘deconstruction’ that often happens as an integral part of healing and truth-seeking; and developing a mature, trauma-informed Christ-centered contemplative spirituality

LINKS

Integrō Formationhttps://www.integroformation.com/

Spiritual Abuse in Evangelisation and Discipleshiphttps://www.becomingmepodcast.com/spiritual-abuse-in-evangelisation-and-discipleship-with-paul-fahey/

Reclaiming Our Dignity: Healing from Spiritual Abusehttps://www.becomingmepodcast.com/reclaiming-our-dignity-healing-from-spiritual-abuse-with-paul-fahey/

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

LIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids.

In this episode, I talked with Colleen Dulle about her new book, “Struck Down, Not Destroyed: Keeping the Faith as a Vatican Reporter.” The book is part journalism and part spiritual memoir. Colleen’s personal stories were deeply genuine in a way that invited me to reflect on my own experiences. In this conversation we talk about what it was like for her to write such a vulnerable memoir. Then we dive into topics like Jean Vanier, the canonization of Carlo Acutis, and how children can shape a person’s experience of God. It’s always great to interview Colleen, I hope you enjoy our conversation.

Colleen Dulle is the Vatican Correspondent at America and co-hosts the "Inside the Vatican" podcast. She contributes to Sacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform blog. Colleen is also the author of Struck Down, Not Destroyed: Keeping the Faith as a Vatican Reporter (Image, 2025).

LINKS

Living Solidaritywww.livingsolidarity.com

Colleen’s Bookhttps://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/742516/struck-down-not-destroyed-by-colleen-dulle/

Colleen’s Websitehttps://www.colleendulle.com

Sacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform bloghttps://sacredheartuniversity.typepad.com/go_rebuild_my_house

Shaun Blanchard & Colleen Dulle - Pope Leo XIVhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/bonus-episode-shaun-blanchard-and

Colleen Dulle - Synodality and Spiritual Criseshttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/colleen-dulle-synodality-and-spiritual

Colleen Dulle - Fr. Rupnik and Trusting the Popehttps://www.popefrancisgeneration.com/p/colleen-dulle-fr-rupnik-and-trusting

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

LIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church's Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids.

This is the first episode of Season Two! And I’m excited to be talking with Sara Larson!

I interviewed Sara about a year and a half ago for the Pope Francis Generation podcast to hear about the mission of Awake. A lot has happened since then! I wanted to interview her again to talk about some exciting things Awake is doing. More specifically, I wanted her to be on the first episode of Season Two to have a conversation about what it means to engage in the Church with a preferential option for survivors because that’s at the heart of my mission with Third Space.

Sara Larson is the executive director of Awake, an independent Catholic nonprofit organization working for awakening, transformation, and healing from the wounds of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church. She also lifts up the voices and stories of abuse survivors in her personal blog, In Spirit and Truth.

LINKS

Awake’s website:

https://www.awakecommunity.org

Sara’s In Spirit and Truth blog:

https://inspiritandtruth.substack.com

Sara’s talk for the International Safeguarding Conference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkhjJsmrt94

Pope Leo XIV’s Letter to Awake:

https://www.awakecommunity.org/blog/pope-leo-responds-to-letters-from-survivors

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry.

I had recorded all of Season One before the conclave, but I didn’t want to wait until the fall to talk about Pope Leo. So this is a bonus round-table discussion with two previous guests: Shaun Blanchard and Colleen Dulle. We discuss a variety of topics including how Leo XIV may address Catholic Social Teaching, the abuse crisis, synodality, and the role of women in the Church. I enjoyed this conversation a lot, I hope you do too.

Shaun Blanchard is Lecturer in Theology at the University of Notre Dame Australia on the Fremantle campus in Western Australia. A North Carolina native and graduate of UNC, Oxford (Blackfriars Hall), and Marquette, Shaun writes on a variety of topics in early modern and modern Catholicism, especially Jansenism, Catholic Enlightenment, the history of the papacy, and the Vatican councils. Shaun is the author of several books, including Vatican II: A Very Short Introduction (OUP: 2023) which he cowrote with Stephen Bullivant

Colleen Dulle is an associate editor at America Media, where she co-hosts the weekly news podcast Inside the Vatican. She writes and edits Vatican news and analysis articles for America Magazine and contributes to Sacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform blog. Her forthcoming book, Struck Down, Not Destroyed, on the spiritual crises that result from reporting on the endemic problems of the Catholic Church, will be published by Penguin Random House in Summer 2025.

LINKS:

Colleen Dulle - Real Reform or Just Vibes?https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/8-colleen-dulle-real-reform-or-just

Colleen’s Websitehttps://www.colleendulle.com

Colleen’s Linktreehttps://linktr.ee/colleendulle

Sacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform bloghttps://sacredheartuniversity.typepad.com/go_rebuild_my_house

Shaun Blanchard - Development and Fundamentalismhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/3-shaun-blanchard-development-and

Shaun Blanchardhttps://nd-au.academia.edu/ShaunBlanchard

Traditionis Custodes Was Never Merely About the Liturgyhttps://churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articles/traditionis-custodes-was-never-merely-about-the-liturgy/

The Reform Was Real: Continuity and change at Vatican IIhttps://www.commonwealmagazine.org/reform-was-real

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry.

 This is part two of a two part conversation with Jordan Daniel Wood. In this first part, we discussed a recent lecture that Jordan presented about the development of the Church's teachings on Hell, as well as what he proposed for possible future developments. The second part of our conversation focuses on how a “massa damnata” position on Hell distorts the character of God and his goodness while also leading to a culture of fear and spiritual coercion.

If you haven't listened to part one, I would encourage you to go back and listen to that now before you listen to part two.

Also, this is the last episode of this season. I'll be taking the summer off. I will have new episodes being released in the fall. Thanks so much for listening.

Jordan Daniel Wood is Assistant Professor of Theology at Belmont University, in Nashville, TN. He's the author of The Whole Mystery of Christ: Creation as Incarnation in Maximus Confessor (Notre Dame Press, 2022), and is nearing completion of the first complete English translation of Maximus's letters. He lives outside of Nashville with his lovely wife and four daughters.

LINKS:

Jordan’s “The Future of Hell” serieshttps://jordandanielwood.substack.com/p/the-future-of-hell

Pope Francis Generation podcast episode: Jordan Daniel Wood - Hell and Universalismhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/jordan-daniel-wood-hell-and-universalism

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry.

 This is part one of a two-part conversation with Jordan Daniel Wood. In this first part, we discuss a recent lecture that Jordan presented about the development of the Church's teachings on Hell, as well as what he proposes for possible future developments. The second part of our conversation focuses on how a “massa damnata” position on Hell distorts the character of God and his goodness while also leading to a culture of fear and spiritual coercion.

Jordan Daniel Wood is Assistant Professor of Theology at Belmont University, in Nashville, TN. He's the author of The Whole Mystery of Christ: Creation as Incarnation in Maximus Confessor (Notre Dame Press, 2022), and is nearing completion of the first complete English translation of Maximus's letters. He lives outside of Nashville with his lovely wife and four daughters.

LINKS:

Jordan’s “The Future of Hell” serieshttps://jordandanielwood.substack.com/p/the-future-of-hell

Pope Francis Generation podcast episode: Jordan Daniel Wood - Hell and Universalismhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/jordan-daniel-wood-hell-and-universalism

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry.

I’m grateful to share this conversation I had with Mark Joseph Williams. Mark shares his story of healing and recovery from clerical abuse, addiction, and trauma. He talks about how God worked in his life in the midst of trauma and how it was through the Catholic Church, the place where he experienced harm, that he also experienced healing. Mark also shares about where he would like to see reform in the Church regarding safeguarding and justice for survivors.

Mark and I recorded this conversation during Holy Week, just a few days before the news of Pope Francis’s death.

Mark Joseph Williams is a forensic psychological clinician with an MS in social work from Columbia. A clerical abuse survivor, he co-founded Global Collaborative, a survivor led organization, and represents the Archdiocese of Newark as Special Advisor. He also serves on the North American Safeguarding Committee of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops. He and his wife, Karen, have four grown children and seven grandchildren. He is the author of Torrent of Grace: A Catholic Survivor's Healing Journey after Clergy Abuse.

LINKS:

Torrent of Grace: A Catholic Survivor's Healing Journey after Clergy Abusehttps://www.amazon.com/Torrent-Grace-Catholic-Survivors-Healing/dp/1626985960

Field Hospital podcast: Mark Joseph Williamshttps://uscatholic.org/articles/202204/field-hospital-mark-joseph-williams/

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry.

Today, I wanted to share a conversation I had a couple weeks ago with Ann Yeong for her podcast, Becoming Me. After attending one of my workshops, Ann invited me on her podcast to talk about the Church’s teaching on human dignity, spiritual abuse, and navigating the Church in the midst of religious trauma. It was so good to have this conversation with Ann. I hope you enjoy listening.

Ann Yeong is the Founder of Integrō Formation and the host of the Becoming Me podcast. Ann has over 15 years of experience in human and spiritual formation in the Catholic Church in Singapore. She served as Director, Youth & Young Adults Office in the Church of St Mary of the Angels and started the first parish-based Office for New Evangelisation in Singapore in 2012.

In 2014, Ann left full-time parish employment to focus on speaking about the interior life and meeting individuals & small groups for spiritual conversation and formation. Ann is particularly passionate about: the lived experience of complex trauma and spiritual/religious trauma's impact on our relationship with God; the existential crisis of spiritual midlife 'deconstruction' that often happens as an integral part of healing and truth-seeking; and developing a mature, trauma-informed Christ-centered contemplative spirituality

LINKS:

Integrō Formationhttps://www.integroformation.com/

Becoming Me podcasthttps://www.becomingmepodcast.com/episodes/

Watch this episode on Ann’s Youtube channelhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCPH12XvCoM

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry.