In this throwback episode from a year ago, I talked with my good friend and mentor, Monica Pope, about hope. We began by talking about the role of the catechist before launching into a catechesis about hope in light of the theme of the 2025 Jubilee Year, “Pilgrims of Hope.” All of that set up a more personal discussion about what hope actually looks like in our concrete lives. We proposed that hope is really only born out of a “third space” where the reality of all the bad is accepted—not bypassed—while holding onto the belief that God is good.

Monica Pope has been doing evangelizing catechesis for 30 years in the Catholic Church. She has worked in Michigan parishes as Director of Catechesis, RCIA leader, and Director of Discipleship Ministries. Monica has created family catechesis programs in several parishes; she’s formed many dedicated and gifted Catholic disciples to be effective catechists. She’s written and led hundreds of retreats, presented for thousands of people, ranging from First Communicants and their parents, to senior residents at assisted living facilities, to employees of diocesan chancelleries. These days she’s a master catechist for a catholic media company. And cofounder of Practical Kerygma.

LINKS:

Practical Kerygmahttps://www.practicalkerygma.com/

Spes Non Confundit - Bull of Indiction of the Ordinary Jubilee of the Year 2025https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/bulls/documents/20240509_spes-non-confundit_bolla-giubileo2025.html

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

LIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids.

In this episode, I talked with Dr. Shaun Blanchard about Pope Leo declaring St. John Henry Newman to be a doctor of the Church. We discuss Shaun’s role in that official process. We also discuss Newman’s theology of development and how it’s important for the Church today.

Shaun Blanchard is Lecturer in Theology at the University of Notre Dame Australia on the Fremantle campus in Western Australia. A North Carolina native and graduate of UNC, Oxford (Blackfriars Hall), and Marquette, Shaun writes on a variety of topics in early modern and modern Catholicism, especially Jansenism, Catholic Enlightenment, the history of the papacy, and the Vatican councils.

He is the author of The Synod of Pistoia and Vatican II (OUP: 2020) and, with Ulrich Lehner, co-edited The Catholic Enlightenment: A Global Anthology (CUA: 2021). With Stephen Bullivant, Shaun co-wrote Vatican II: A Very Short Introduction (OUP: 2023). With Richard T. Yoder, Shaun co-edited Jansenism: An International Anthology (CUA Press: 2024).

LINKS

Shaun Blanchardhttps://nd-au.academia.edu/ShaunBlanchard

Traditionis Custodes Was Never Merely About the Liturgyhttps://churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articles/traditionis-custodes-was-never-merely-about-the-liturgy/

The Reform Was Real: Continuity and change at Vatican IIhttps://www.commonwealmagazine.org/reform-was-real

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

LIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids.

In this throwback episode from 2023, Paul and Dominic have a conversation with Shaun Blanchard about Vatican II and the development of doctrine. Shaun offers a brief history of the Church’s understanding about how doctrine develops over the past few centuries and how that culminated at Vatican II. Then we discuss how the Church’s teaching is not rigid or static but that the Church is always in a process of reform. As Dei Verbum says, “For as the centuries succeed one another, the Church constantly moves forward toward the fullness of divine truth until the words of God reach their complete fulfillment in her.”

Shaun Blanchard is Lecturer in Theology at the University of Notre Dame Australia on the Fremantle campus in Western Australia. A North Carolina native and graduate of UNC, Oxford (Blackfriars Hall), and Marquette, Shaun writes on a variety of topics in early modern and modern Catholicism, especially Jansenism, Catholic Enlightenment, the history of the papacy, and the Vatican councils.

He is the author of The Synod of Pistoia and Vatican II (OUP: 2020) and, with Ulrich Lehner, co-edited The Catholic Enlightenment: A Global Anthology (CUA: 2021). With Stephen Bullivant, Shaun co-wrote Vatican II: A Very Short Introduction (OUP: 2023). With Richard T. Yoder, Shaun co-edited Jansenism: An International Anthology (CUA Press: 2024).

LINKS

Shaun Blanchardhttps://nd-au.academia.edu/ShaunBlanchard

Traditionis Custodes Was Never Merely About the Liturgyhttps://churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articles/traditionis-custodes-was-never-merely-about-the-liturgy/

The Reform Was Real: Continuity and change at Vatican IIhttps://www.commonwealmagazine.org/reform-was-real

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

LIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids.

I’m excited to share a conversation I had with Amy Grey over on her Youtube channel, Into the Grey, where she interviewed me about the Church’s understanding of conscience. We discuss abuse of conscience as well as the interplay between personal conscience and the Church’s teaching authority.

Amy Grey lives in the midwest with her husband Thomas and four children. She was raised in a rich Mennonite tradition, converting to Catholicism at age 13. She seeks a synthesis of faith and life, as well as heart and mind. Amy is the author of The Cognitive Resonance Workbook: A Practical Guide to Strengthening the Connection Between Heart and Mind.

LINKS

Into the Greyhttps://www.youtube.com/@Amy-Grey

The Cognitive Resonance Workbook: A Practical Guide to Strengthening the Connection Between Heart and Mindhttps://reasonablediscourse.org/

Living Solidarityhttps://livingsolidarity.com

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

LIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids.

Sarah Carter and I hosted a livestream conversation on Substack last week about Pope Leo’s Apostolic Exhortation, Dilexi Te. This was a pretty freewheeling conversation that ranged from giving an overview of the document, sharing our personal reactions to it, and taking listener questions. I had a lot of fun being a part of this and I hope you enjoy listening!

Sarah Carter lives in St. Paul MN with her husband and three children. She is the author of Recovering Catholic and Pope Leo Weekly on Substack. Sarah has a masters degree in theology from the Saint Paul Seminary in St. Paul, MN with specialization in Catholic social teaching and Pope Francis’ encyclical Laudato si’

LINKS

Recovering Catholichttps://recoveringcatholic.substack.com/

Pope Leo Weeklyhttps://popeleoweekly.substack.com/

Dilexi Tehttps://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiv/en/apost_exhortations/documents/20251004-dilexi-te.html

Living Solidarityhttps://livingsolidarity.com

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

LIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids.

This week I spoke with Sr. Danielle Victoria Lussier and Sr. Theresa Aletheia Noble from the Sisters of the Little Way of Beauty, Truth, and Goodness. We discussed their new audio documentary, Descent Into Light, about adult abuse in the Church. Sr. Theresa and Sr. Danielle have been real sources of consolation for me over the past couple of years, and it’s such an honor to have them on the podcast.

The Sisters of the Little Way of Beauty, Truth, and Goodness, are a private association of the faithful intending to become a religious institute. As religious sisters and consecrated women, they live a mission of listening and solidarity with people on the fringes of the Church, especially those who have been wounded, scandalized, or abused by members of the Church.

LINKS

Sisters of the Little Wayhttps://www.sistersofthelittleway.com/

Descent Into Light podcasthttps://www.sistersofthelittleway.com/podcast

Spiritual Abuse Workshophttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-b5e

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

LIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids.

Sarah Carter and I went into this conversation ready to talk about her excellent article, “The Evangelization Mistake I Made For Years: Missionary discipleship isn’t supposed to feel like this.” And then we spent the first half of our time discussing deconstruction and Henri de Lubac! Sarah is insightful and vulnerable, it was a joy to have this conversation with her. I hope you enjoy it.

Sarah Carter lives in St. Paul MN with her husband and three children. She is the author of Recovering Catholic and Pope Leo Weekly on Substack. Sarah has a masters degree in theology from the Saint Paul Seminary in St. Paul, MN with specialization in Catholic social teaching and Pope Francis’ encyclical Laudato si’

LINKS

Sarah’s article: The Evangelization Mistake I Made For Years

https://recoveringcatholic.substack.com/p/thats-not-what-missionary-disciple

Recovering Catholic

https://recoveringcatholic.substack.com/

Pope Leo Weekly

https://popeleoweekly.substack.com/

Ann Yeong’s podcast: Spiritual Abuse in Evangelisation and Discipleship

https://www.becomingmepodcast.com/spiritual-abuse-in-evangelisation-and-discipleship-with-paul-fahey/

Spiritual Abuse Workshop

https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-b5e

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

LIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids.

Today, I’m sharing a conversation I had a few weeks ago with Ann Yeong, for her podcast, Becoming Me, about spiritual abuse within the context of evangelization. We talk about how a distorted image of God can lead to a distorted evangelization where we “proclaim God in a way contrary to God himself.” We also discuss the critical role of personal integrity and the healthy use of authority for those in positions of spiritual leadership. It was so good to have this conversation with Ann. I hope you enjoy listening.

Ann Yeong is the Founder of Integrō Formation and the host of the Becoming Me podcast. Ann has over 15 years of experience in human and spiritual formation in the Catholic Church in Singapore. She served as Director, Youth & Young Adults Office in the Church of St Mary of the Angels and started the first parish-based Office for New Evangelisation in Singapore in 2012. In 2014, Ann left full-time parish employment to focus on speaking about the interior life and meeting individuals & small groups for spiritual conversation and formation. Ann is particularly passionate about: the lived experience of complex trauma and spiritual/religious trauma’s impact on our relationship with God; the existential crisis of spiritual midlife ‘deconstruction’ that often happens as an integral part of healing and truth-seeking; and developing a mature, trauma-informed Christ-centered contemplative spirituality

LINKS

Integrō Formationhttps://www.integroformation.com/

Spiritual Abuse in Evangelisation and Discipleshiphttps://www.becomingmepodcast.com/spiritual-abuse-in-evangelisation-and-discipleship-with-paul-fahey/

Reclaiming Our Dignity: Healing from Spiritual Abusehttps://www.becomingmepodcast.com/reclaiming-our-dignity-healing-from-spiritual-abuse-with-paul-fahey/

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

LIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids.

In this episode, I talked with Colleen Dulle about her new book, “Struck Down, Not Destroyed: Keeping the Faith as a Vatican Reporter.” The book is part journalism and part spiritual memoir. Colleen’s personal stories were deeply genuine in a way that invited me to reflect on my own experiences. In this conversation we talk about what it was like for her to write such a vulnerable memoir. Then we dive into topics like Jean Vanier, the canonization of Carlo Acutis, and how children can shape a person’s experience of God. It’s always great to interview Colleen, I hope you enjoy our conversation.

Colleen Dulle is the Vatican Correspondent at America and co-hosts the "Inside the Vatican" podcast. She contributes to Sacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform blog. Colleen is also the author of Struck Down, Not Destroyed: Keeping the Faith as a Vatican Reporter (Image, 2025).

LINKS

Living Solidaritywww.livingsolidarity.com

Colleen’s Bookhttps://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/742516/struck-down-not-destroyed-by-colleen-dulle/

Colleen’s Websitehttps://www.colleendulle.com

Sacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform bloghttps://sacredheartuniversity.typepad.com/go_rebuild_my_house

Shaun Blanchard & Colleen Dulle - Pope Leo XIVhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/bonus-episode-shaun-blanchard-and

Colleen Dulle - Synodality and Spiritual Criseshttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/colleen-dulle-synodality-and-spiritual

Colleen Dulle - Fr. Rupnik and Trusting the Popehttps://www.popefrancisgeneration.com/p/colleen-dulle-fr-rupnik-and-trusting

ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.

SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.

www.catholicthirdspace.com

LIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church's Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.

ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids.