This Sustainable Life

Nadeem committed to reducing his doof. He bravely shares the challenge.

Even in Norway, he's surrounded by messages to keep consuming it. Imagine any other unhealthy addictive substance---cocaine, heroin, etc---was advertised and sold everywhere. On top of extra availability, imagine it was portrayed as like food, which it isn't. Nadeem stopped drinking alcohol long ago despite its prevalence in Norwegian culture, and compares how avoiding doof was harder.

If you're struggling with getting clean from doof, you'll appreciate hearing what it's like.

He also shares more about living as a Muslim in Norway.

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I've said before and I'll say again that conversations like mine with Mark Mills are what I value and wish we had more of. We do our research, we have strong opinions, we agree on many things, we disagree on some things we care about.

Most of all, I believe we learn from each other, respect different opinions, and try to understand the other's view and goals.

In this conversation we talk about his book and the challenges of predictions at first, The most interesting parts are challenging each other on our understandings of our environmental problems and what we can do about them. We agree most proposed solutions that humanity is pursuing don't work and people are misguided. We differ on our expectations in what can work between technology and people. He has me opening my mind to some things I'd be closed off to otherwise, in part because he's not just spouting opinion or blind hope. He's done the research. I believe I have too.

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I can't tell you how valuable (and entertaining) I found Daniel's video series.

Regular listeners and readers may know how important I find anthropology to solving our environmental problems. If we want to change our culture, we have to know why it is this way, how other structures have worked, and how we can change.

I started realizing this importance when I noticed that I had read podcast guest Sebastian Junger's book Tribe the day I unplugged my apartment. It showed me what we lack in our culture that others have: freedom, equality, community, connection, and what we value when calm, not bombarded with ads and feeling guilt, shame, helplessness, and hopelessness. It gave me something to look forward to beyond being able to fly to see the Eiffel Tower whenever I wanted.

Next, reading The Dawn of Everything, another book on anthropology, showed a variety of cultures I hadn't known. We don't have to feel constricted to "returning to the Stone Age." But that book left open its main question: why are we stuck in our current culture?

Enter What Is Politics?. In the series, Daniel clarifies what a lot of loose terms mean, thereby simplifying how to understand politics. It led me to understand why we're stuck and what we have to do to free ourselves.

Daniel and I went to town talking politics, anthropology, hierarchies, how and why they form, sustainability, and more.

Normally when my conversations go longer than an hour, I break them into parts, but if you like our conversation, you'll keep listening. I expect what we cover here and his series covers to ground a lot of what we have to do to change global culture. I'll close by reminding you of my mission statement on my bio page:

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Martha Nussbaum's new book, Justice for Animals: Our Collective Responsibility, looks like it's about animals, but the more I read it, I found it about us, our values, and our behavior. Regular readers and listeners will see the similarity to how I approach the environment in general.

Not having eaten meat since 1990 and no animal products at all about ten years, I don't find new materials on human treatment of animals. Candidly, I thought I'd just browse the book. I also don't read much philosophy, which I find too often hard to read.

Instead, I kept reading the book until I finished it. I found her writing style accessible, her material heartfelt, and her motivations genuine. She takes a few controversial points, like predation and whether wildlife still exists. I don't agree with each point but value that she made them.

I was interested in learning more of the story behind the story, which she shared in this conversation. She approaches how we treat animals from a more theoretical perspective than I do. She traces a history of humans considering animals' rights, contrasting what worked or not with her view.

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Watching environmental documentaries means having seen the Tickells' work, especially Fuel and Kiss the Ground, which they did with podcast guest Bill Benenson. Bill introduced us, though we scheduled this conversation to release the day before their new movie On Sacred Ground, on the Dakota pipeline.

In this conversation, they share about the process of choosing the subject, the story and its roots in their lives at the protests, the actors performances, interacting with indigenous cultures, and the emotion the movie evokes.

You'll hear some behind-the-scenes stories, but most of all, you'll feel compelled to watch the movie. The movie tells the story of an outsider coming to the protests of the Dakota pipeline and seeing the community there, particularly Native Americans, as a last stand to stop the pipeline coming through their land.

• On Sacred Ground
• All their movies

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Food touches nearly all environmental issues, as well as health, social, economic, political, and cultural. Cities like New York and their governance do too. Regular listeners know I talk about food waste, doof, packaging, and related issues. I celebrate her boss, Eric Adams's dramatic change in his diet, which tells me his motivations to bring healthier food to New York are authentic and genuine.

As the top food official in New York City's government, Kate is in the middle of it all. After covering her background, we talk about what New York is doing about food and doof, some initiatives guarded, some bold and visionary. As a New Yorker since the 1980s, you'll hear I want to offer my service. I want to help make doof go the way of cigarettes in the workplace---that is, no longer allowed. After New York banned them, the policy change received overwhelming support.

While she speaks somewhat officially at the start, the conversation grew more personal as we spoke, in part, maybe because I shared with her an amazingly delicious local apple. Who knows, maybe I'll work with the city and get to help stop tragedies like this disgusting litter and this alarming litter, largely doof waste, from happening. New York is one of the most exciting and beautiful cities in the world when not covered with doof and its waste.

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Donald committed to seeking out seeing a wolf. He shares about his experience on this commitment. He shares his deep connection and commitment to nature and how the project affected it.

Donald thinks and acts in systems. We know we are a part of nature, but not all of us behave as if we understand what that means. Donald shares what it means to him, given his background in systems based especially in one of my great role models, W. Edwards Deming.

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After I've read his recent book The Cloud Revolution, Mark and I continue our conversation on sustainability and what to do based on qualitative and quantitative understanding. I've also been listening to his podcast.

I came to Mark for his thoughtful research on the problems with solar and wind power, which people call clean, green, and renewable but are none of the above. I mainly want to get his views in general, which he shares. Within that frame, and trying as a host, not an investigative journalist, I've tried to focus him on exposing the larger problems with fossil fuels, nuclear, fusion, and other sources.

He doesn't seem to consider their problems seriously. I hear him motivated by the view that lower energy prices and greater supply have benefited society and the concern for society breaking down if energy prices increased or supply decreased.

Regular listeners know I find huge potential life improvements in lowering energy use and that I see significant problems with our lives and future if we stay with oil, gas, coal, nuclear, and fusion so I support decreasing energy demand and supply, as I've lived and am living.

As you can hear, we two physics-trained examiners of our environmental situation enjoy our conversations. I expect it won't be our last.

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