"He closed your church, and you've fallen asleep the moment you've returned."—Steve Buckley We welcome to the programme Pastor Stephen Buckley, leader of My King Church in Greater Manchester UK, for an interview as part of the ongoing conversation here at TMR called: "Following Christ in the New Old Normal." In the first conversation, with Rev Phill Sacre, we discussed the importance of "awakeness" rather than "sleep" in the church and beyond in the post-covid era. In this second conversation (an interview), Pastor Stephen Buckley shares with us his perspective on the last two and a half years, interpreting the response of so many churches in terms of God's constructive judgement upon the churches themselves. As Pastor Buckley explains, this biblical-theological perspective—which sees God as ultimately sovereign over all events—allows us to ask tough questions of ourselves that we might otherwise never ask: What was God saying to us? Where have we gone wrong? And how should we move forward in Christ in the days ahead? Born on the mission field in Asia, Stephen grew up in a family of teachers and preachers. He has previously been part of church-planting leadership and is presently pastor of My King Church in Greater Manchester where he resides with his wife and three children. Learn more at MyKing.com. [For show notes please visit https://themindrenewed.com]