In this concluding conversation, Pastors Clint and Michael explore how faith is the glue that holds all of the other Christian character traits together. In this conversation, faith and works are not diametrically opposed but rather mutually complimentary.
Transcript
00:00:01:23 - 00:00:29:06
Michael Gewecke
We are going to be exploring as our last mark of Christian character, the last pillar we're going to be looking at the idea of faith, and we're going to also be having a kind of concluding conversation towards the end about how these pillars might fit together and the ways in which we think about Christian character as being unique to our lives that we live out in Jesus Christ.
00:00:29:09 - 00:01:09:21
Clint Loveall
There is some overlap between the idea of character and the idea of ethics, and Christians and non-Christians would agree on some ethical ideas, right? Don't hurt people. Try not to be dishonest. We we would agree on some of the pathways that we would call better and worse, but to the idea of motivation. Christians hold up those things not simply as good ideas, not just as good practices, not just as good ways to be students or citizens, but as a reflection of our faith commitment.
00:01:09:24 - 00:01:42:07
Clint Loveall
And so even though we would have some commonality with lots of people and we could agree on things that are good for us, for Christian, our primary motivation is not that the thing in itself is good, but the one that it reflects is good, and we seek to reflect him by doing that, by being that. And so I, I do think while we stand on some ground together, we get there two very different pathways.
00:01:42:07 - 00:02:18:12
Clint Loveall
And bear with me. We, you know, you give examples and you don't want to, well, whatever. Here we go. This is, I think, one of the interesting detours you get there has recently been another movie by people to put the Ten Commandments in public spaces. Right. And on the surface, there's nothing wrong with the Ten Commandments being known, but that's fine.
00:02:18:15 - 00:02:49:09
Clint Loveall
But the Ten Commandments are not first and foremost good ideas to live by their covenant practices within the faith. And so when we treat them the same as be nice to each other, or we think that when we post them, they represent good ideas instead of covenant faithfulness, we're using them in a in a social. And I would.
00:02:49:12 - 00:03:29:12
Clint Loveall
I would argue at times almost a secular way. And so I think those are the conversations that Christian people have to be. We have to be cautious with. Because, yes, the Ten Commandments are good ideas, but that's not primarily what they are, and that's never what they are to us. They are always more than that. And if we let them be reduced to instructions that go on walls, we have lost something in our understanding of what it means to practice Christian character.
00:03:29:17 - 00:03:56:24
Clint Loveall
So again, don't go tell everybody Pastor Kuntz against the Ten Commandments. That's not my point. My my point is that underneath. Civics and civility and good practices, there is a layer deeper that Christians hopefully get to when we when we discuss character.
00:03:56:26 - 00:04:28:27
Michael Gewecke
You can tell them, Pastor Michael, for the Ten Commandments, they'll get spicy. No, I want to we need to press on. But I just want to make one really short comment here about the Ten Commandments, which I think is is instructive because Christian character cannot be dissolved down to moral truisms, because Christian character is always rooted inside the reflection of Jesus Christ, who is a person.
00:04:28:29 - 00:05:00:01
Michael Gewecke
It's always relational. We're always seeking to live into the character of Christ, into the world in which we live. So to put a thing on the wall and to point to people to it is a little bit like pointing them to the monument when the living thing is literally in you, it's to say, hey, look, we came to see the, the, the, the scaffolding of what a moral Christian ethic looks like when actually, because the Spirit of God lives in you, that Christian ethics should be living.
00:05:00:03 - 00:05:18:03
Michael Gewecke
And so these things should reinforce for us what is true and how God expects us to live as covenantal people. But we should be the illustration of it in the world. People should see those ten commandments inside the people of God, because we are relationally living that out in the world.
00:05:18:06 - 00:05:49:19
Clint Loveall
Yeah, the law itself is to point to something deeper, something better, something bigger. Michael's comment made me think, I don't have a nice way to ask this question. How many of you have been to a concert recently, or at some point in the recent past that was also attended by young people?
00:05:49:22 - 00:06:17:13
Clint Loveall
Okay. Okay. Well, yeah. I'm on thin ice here, but if you have been to a concert where young people. It is incredible to me that young people will run and push and work as hard as they can to get close to the stage. And then if you watch them, they are watching the band on their phone while they film it.
00:06:17:13 - 00:06:56:17
Clint Loveall
And as an old person, I think they're right there. You you're you're looking at a copy of the thing that's happening right in front of you. And I think sometimes that's how we treat law or prescriptions like the Ten Commandments. They are the embodiment of a Christ like life. They're not rules. They are the way to live a life that honors Jesus, and we should not allow them to become less than that just because they're also good ideas in other contexts.
00:06:56:20 - 00:07:25:22
Clint Loveall
If that sounds a little crabby, I will admit to you it is because they are ours. They belong to the church, and and we need to be aware of that anyway. Oh, that's enough preaching. So we are talking tonight about the character pillar, that we would summarize by faith. And if you talk to people about faith, I would say that that falls in in two categories.
00:07:25:22 - 00:07:56:13
Clint Loveall
The first is generally if you ask people what faith is, they're going to talk to you about what? Their beliefs. Yeah, I agree, I think one way that we talk about the faith is the collection of things we believe that we label Christianity, and when we put our mind to the faith, what we are doing is trying to ensure that we think correctly about following Christ.
00:07:56:15 - 00:08:29:06
Clint Loveall
So these are where we run into words like our doctrine, our theology. Right? We want to have the right ideas. We want to have the right thinking. This is a major part of going to seminary. When you want to be a pastor and you do the seminary thing, part of what they're trying to do is train you to think, well, they're trying to train you, teach you what is our traditions take what is theology, take on concepts like salvation and sin and providence and justification and justice.
00:08:29:09 - 00:09:07:17
Clint Loveall
What do we think about God in our corner of the church? And is that thinking both biblical? And is it Christ like? You might also add historical, traditional, but primarily the lenses we've tried to use. Is it biblical and is it like and? We are in a tradition that prides itself on being thoughtful and often for good reason.
00:09:07:19 - 00:09:11:18
Clint Loveall
But it's not always the case.
00:09:11:21 - 00:09:35:29
Michael Gewecke
Yeah, we know throughout history, and this has been true, by the way, in every age that we as Christians succumb to bad thinking, our theology does not always rise to the level of or beyond the, the weight and the anchoring of our times. Right? So the church has been guilty, over, over the years. Our thinking hasn't risen above racism.
00:09:36:06 - 00:10:07:17
Michael Gewecke
We've struggled theologically with, with classes, and nationalism, legalism. I mean, all of the isms we've at some point, run our way down the wrong path. And the truth is, Christians aren't always good about consistent thinking. We are often guilty of being sloppy. Sometimes, quite frankly, we get called out on bad thinking and we just double down and say, yeah, what are you going to do about it?
00:10:07:19 - 00:10:36:13
Michael Gewecke
Because we we find ourselves backed into a corner. And so one of the ways that we as Christians have to refer to faith is, is we have to, in the spirit of the Reformation, remember that the Spirit of God is always at work, both before we are reformed people, but we're also being reformed. We also always have to be open to that work of the spirit within us, and that becomes an active practice.
00:10:36:13 - 00:10:54:00
Michael Gewecke
In the same way that we say that a doctor is practicing medicine. I don't think we have any doctors in the room today so I can make a doctor joke. I think right now you think it's okay for you to practice medicine. Just don't practice it on me. Right? Get it right on me. But the reality is, Christians are practicing the faith.
00:10:54:02 - 00:11:16:03
Michael Gewecke
We're always practicing it and embodying it. The world in which we live. But truth is, we don't always get that right. But the the focus of church is that we take what we believe and we live it out in a meaningful way. And this is one of the most essential understandings for why church is an essential part of the Christian life.
00:11:16:06 - 00:11:44:10
Michael Gewecke
Because if you believe that at its core, the faith is an individual adventure, then ultimately what you might believe is that it's all what's in your head and really what you do with it is a matter of your choice in the world in which you live. But anyone who has been a brother or sister in Christ in a church family knows because of experience and practice that this is the incubator.
00:11:44:10 - 00:12:11:06
Michael Gewecke
It's the laboratory. It's the place where that thinking has to work its way into our living. It has to be in our hearts, and it has to live in and out through our mouths, our hands and our feet. And I think that that is one of the reasons we need to focus on faith at the end is because I think in some ways, faith becomes this bridge, that this character that we are seeking to live in, to all of the things we talked about.
00:12:11:06 - 00:12:31:00
Michael Gewecke
Grace. Right. All love, all these things that we believe live in us. Faith is the way in which those things get integrated into our lives, and we lean back into them and trust that God's doing that in us. And that's what gives us the courage and bravery to live it out in a place with other people doing the same.
00:12:31:03 - 00:13:11:29
Clint Loveall
So tonight we are going to focus on this second idea that faith not only is what we believe, but equally as importantly, faith is what we do. Faith is the beliefs we put into practice, and we are all well aware that the gap between what we believe and what we do, we call hypocrisy in the church. When I know what it is that I am to do, but I don't do it or I do something else, I'm choosing to live in a way that doesn't match my professed beliefs.
00:13:11:29 - 00:13:33:21
Clint Loveall
And, the ancients gave us that word hypocrisy. It's the word they use for actors. People who played roles. So I say one thing, but I act differently. So we're going to focus tonight on the action and the case. We're going to make or try to make is that the collective of our Christian character is not an attribute.
00:13:33:21 - 00:14:05:26
Clint Loveall
If faith is not just one thing in our character, faith is the foundation, the primary expression of our character. And I think we've maybe touched on this. This gets a little difficult in English. In English, faith is a noun, so it's something you do or don't have. We generally make it equivalent to belief, but Greek has a way of making faith a verb so that life can be faith.
00:14:05:29 - 00:14:31:14
Clint Loveall
Work can be faith, family can be faith. And it's unfortunate that we can't really do that with our English word. The closest we could get, maybe, is that faith is the collection of things we think are true, and living up to them would make us faithful. So we might be able to talk about our faithfulness as an attribute of faith.
00:14:31:14 - 00:15:01:07
Clint Loveall
But it's very difficult for us to talk about faith. Any. And I wish we could fix that because it's a wonderful advantage. I think, that biblical language has over English. In the Bible you can faith things, you can faith, relationships, and I wish we could say it that way. I think that would be helpful. The difference between faith and faithful.
00:15:01:08 - 00:15:31:11
Clint Loveall
Again, this English struggle is not really a separation that the Scripture makes it. Even Paul, who is very clear to talk about faith versus works, understands them to be connected, understands them, to be both essential. Paul is not in those conversations saying that what we do doesn't matter. He is only saying that what we do is not the mechanism by which we are saved.
00:15:31:14 - 00:16:03:05
Clint Loveall
We are saved by faith. But Paul himself writes, we are saved for good works in order to do good works. So Christians should stand out not just for the things we say or the things we believe, but for the things we faith, for the things we do. We should be faithful people, literally full of faith, connected and committed to the God who calls us.
00:16:03:08 - 00:16:40:03
Clint Loveall
Because in our life, our attempt is through gratitude for what we've received to show the character of God in the character of his people. You know, our character as Christians, we are to display something of what we know to be true of God. So in the Old Testament, faithfulness is the equivalent of obedience, which is still in there, but in the New Testament, far more faith is our belief put into practice.
00:16:40:06 - 00:17:01:15
Michael Gewecke
I think when we make the mistake of making faith a thing that we possess, we begin to lose our ability to make sense of the Psalms we make. We lose our ability to make sense of limitations and job. Because when a person is crying out to God says, how in the world are you letting this affliction happen to me?
00:17:01:15 - 00:17:27:21
Michael Gewecke
When we experience grief, Christians feel this pang of guilt. Well, how am I feeling this way towards God? I have I lost my faith. You heard this before, and if that is the way we can sit, our faith that it's a thing that we can have, then it's a thing that is so fragile that we forget that faithful people can be angry.
00:17:27:24 - 00:18:02:12
Michael Gewecke
Faithful people can have doubts. People who are facing God to be the kind of people on the journey of faith, and yet still finding ourselves in a circumstance where faith is hard. And I think that that is essential for us to understand that there's a real danger in trying to drive a wedge between faith and works. So trying to say that if I just have enough faith, then that is separate from what I do is is by definition, creating the hypocrisy is, by definition, playing a role.
00:18:02:19 - 00:18:31:29
Michael Gewecke
Because what it means is we're not connecting the truth of what we say with the reality of how we live. So if our character is forged by what we believe, that is revealed by what we practice, and no doubt Christians should be people who are worthy of trust, we should be exemplars of moral living, practitioners of love. We should be the kind of people who demonstrate forgiveness in the world.
00:18:32:02 - 00:19:02:01
Michael Gewecke
But we should not, at our core, be people who are looking at our lives from a checklist of moral maxims, like to say, the perfect student in your classroom who could get an A on all the character marks, good for them. That would. That's great. But a Christian has to look at that and recognize that if we're not living out a thing that we profess to be true, then it's not facing our character.
00:19:02:06 - 00:19:27:02
Michael Gewecke
And if our character hasn't been transformed, then we're not yet within the relational connection with the newer transformer of the universe. Right? It so it it's a connection between what we say we believe, what's internal and the lives that we live externally. And so therefore, life together should be the highest witness of Christian character. The church should demonstrate the truth of our profession.
00:19:27:04 - 00:19:51:12
Michael Gewecke
In fact, if you want to see that played out, I encourage you to keep reading on the text that we read for the sermon today in Corinthians, because Paul makes that literal argument. He goes on to say that people who have the mind of Christ are the very people who live their lives as if they do. And here's an accusation against the Corinthians, or that they're not living up to it.
00:19:51:15 - 00:19:59:11
Michael Gewecke
And so the church becomes a place where the truth of our witness is seen, and the lives that we live together.
00:19:59:13 - 00:20:32:03
Clint Loveall
And this is, this is a challenge for the church. I think we are at our absolute best in terms of witness when we do this. Well, imagine that the church is a place where someone could come and lose $1,000 and guarantee they'd get it back. The place where someone could show up hungry, and we would guarantee that they get fed or show up needing prayer, and we would pray over that.
00:20:32:06 - 00:20:56:27
Clint Loveall
The idea is that as community, we would be a place where the character of Christ would be on display. And sure, none of us are going to hit that note perfectly. We are always going to be out of tune a little. But when the church is able to live into that reality, it is an incredible demonstration to the world.
00:20:57:00 - 00:21:25:21
Clint Loveall
You may know this, the word Christian is essentially a word that means small Christs, miniature Christs. So, so that Christians, the very thing we call ourselves, is a reminder of the one we're trying to imitate, which we can do only through his grace. What Christian character is to keep primary. What would Jesus have me do and say?
00:21:25:24 - 00:21:59:06
Clint Loveall
Who would Jesus have me become so that a Christian tells the truth? Not because telling the truth is important, it is, but because Jesus Christ said, I am the truth and a Christian loves their neighbor, not because that makes community better, which it does, but because Jesus said, love God and love neighbor. And so the end of Christian character for us is what we hear and see in Jesus Christ.
00:21:59:08 - 00:22:32:17
Clint Loveall
And sometimes, sometimes that's hard to discern. I suspect all of us have had a moment where we've wrestled with what's the right thing to do. We've genuinely struggled. I have this moment. I don't know if A is the Christian thing to do, or if B is the Christian thing to do. That happens. But in my experience, it's rarer than we like to admit, because mostly the Christian thing is not hard to figure out.
00:22:32:20 - 00:22:56:29
Clint Loveall
It's hard to do. And most of the time, I would say we generally know what Christ would have us do. We don't want to do it. We don't want to be honest. We don't want to love our enemies. We don't want to stay silent. We don't want to give or forgive. And and many Christians, as we know, get caught stepping outside the boundaries of the faith.
00:22:57:01 - 00:23:26:25
Clint Loveall
And many more don't get caught. And many tell us how sorry they are after they get caught. But none of that is the point. Because the point is, what would Jesus have me be? What would Jesus have me say when we bend the rules and leave the path? My experience is that most of the time I know it, and most of the time, though, I'd love to claim otherwise.
00:23:26:28 - 00:24:01:22
Clint Loveall
I did it willingly, and if it's not in that moment that I choose to change my behavior, apologize, repent, and confess, then I am not using Christ as my guide. I'm following some other thing. I have let something else set my course and I have lost sight of my goal, which is to be what I claim to believe.
00:24:01:24 - 00:24:04:23
Clint Loveall
That is my purpose as a Christian.
00:24:04:25 - 00:24:32:24
Michael Gewecke
I think the reformed tradition helps us here, and I don't want to be too autobiographical, but I think I do have a personal illustration of this. Rochelle and I both went to the same school, so she can tell you if I butcher this story. But while we were at Oral Roberts University, the the night came where we were all called to go to an emergency night chapel, which wasn't a thing that regularly happened.
00:24:32:27 - 00:24:57:15
Michael Gewecke
And we got there and it was a whole fraught moment. And it was, lots of praying and and prophesying. And I at the end of that night came out that the president of the university had legal charges, substantiated legal charges made that he had been pilfering money from the university, millions of dollars flying U.S. dollars to the Bahamas.
00:24:57:15 - 00:25:30:24
Michael Gewecke
And all of these shopping excursions and the response from the university in the in the wake of this major moral lapse was, this is an attack of the enemy. This is Satan coming after us, and that is a human temptation. We're all tempted to say, not me, something else. Right, Adam? And eat this woman that you gave me right.
00:25:30:27 - 00:25:55:20
Michael Gewecke
The reformed tradition, I think, helps us tell the truth. It reminds us we are sinners. That's the reality. The call on our life is Jesus Christ, and it's his character we're called to emulate. One of the things I most deeply respect about our tradition is we build systems which aren't always effective, but we wholeheartedly try to build systems to keep people from going on.
00:25:55:20 - 00:26:19:24
Michael Gewecke
The private jets. Because we know people are sinful. We know that too much power often leads us to positions of compromise. We know that our character is not always strong enough to stand in the face of what might be beckoning us over the border. Right. And I think one of the things that as Christians, we need to recognize is that the truth is our brokenness.
00:26:19:26 - 00:26:44:06
Michael Gewecke
The gift is restoration, that the gift is what Jesus Christ wants to do within us. And it is out of that gift that our character could be transformed. And so I just want to point out, I think checks and balances is not against being people of character. It's intended to be the laboratory in which that character can be formed.
00:26:44:09 - 00:27:13:05
Michael Gewecke
And I think that we sometimes miss the opportunity to recognize that our practice is not just to know what's right, but also to be living our lives in such a way that when others see us, they can see that goodness living in us and the more and more that Christians seek to decrease the gap between what we say we believe versus how we actually speak and act in the world.
00:27:13:07 - 00:27:48:03
Michael Gewecke
That is when our witness becomes compelling. Because this isn't going to be a surprise to you. It was not a significant evangelistic moment on Tulsa television when they found out about the private jets, because it exposed the the motivation underneath the facade, the hypocrisy made a moment in which the truth of our sinfulness, which is true, was suddenly disarmed, opened because we claimed to have it all put together.
00:27:48:06 - 00:28:09:24
Michael Gewecke
And the moment in which Christians compare. Ten pair humility with gratitude for Christ's gift for us is the moment we start experiencing Christian character in face that we can face, we can live into, we can demonstrate to the world because it's honest, and that's a place where we don't always start.
00:28:09:27 - 00:28:32:17
Clint Loveall
One of my favorite conversations with the New Testament is that it calls us saints. The New Testament is comfortable calling every person who believes in Jesus, all the people in the church, you, me, saints. And I say to the new Testament, no, I know these people. I've, I've been in I've been in church a long time. I'm.
00:28:32:17 - 00:29:11:09
Clint Loveall
I'm in the church myself. You gotta find another word. And the New Testament says, are you and Jesus Christ say, well, yeah, yeah. We try to be sure. And it says, then your saints, you are made right in Jesus Christ. His holiness is now your holiness. You are saints. And I say, wow, that sounds good. Thanks. And then it says, now, dang it, start acting like it.
00:29:11:12 - 00:29:41:24
Clint Loveall
And I, I love the I love the idea that even when we talk about ourselves as Christians, as saints, when the Bible talks about anybody who believes in Jesus, it uses words that we don't own, but we aspire to. We are trying to live up to and sort of try and summarize some of this. The Christian task as it regards to faith is, I think, twofold.
00:29:41:27 - 00:30:12:17
Clint Loveall
We have to work to make our beliefs sound. We should work on our thinking, we should study, we should read Scripture. We should interact with ideas to make sure that they're biblical. And they are in keeping with what we know of God in Christ. And we should try to guard our thinking from being led astray by bad ideas, even if they come to us in religious garb.
00:30:12:19 - 00:30:47:26
Clint Loveall
Secondly, as Christians, we should put those beliefs into practice. We must strive to live them out to decrease as much as we're able. The gap between what we say and how we speak and how we act and what we do. Because Christian character is not some religious version of being a good person, Christian character is to pursue the character of Jesus Christ.
00:30:47:29 - 00:31:23:02
Clint Loveall
The reason we call it Christian character, it seems to me, is because we've so often failed at being Christian. If we could do that, we wouldn't need to modify it. We would just call it being Christian, but we wouldn't need the word character. We would understand that being Christian is to have Christian character, but since we don't always do that, we think about it in terms not only of being Christian.
00:31:23:04 - 00:31:37:03
Clint Loveall
What? Trying to be Christian in a way that reveals and portrays and in acts and embodies the character of Jesus Christ and in a.
00:31:37:06 - 00:32:19:20
Clint Loveall
In an ironic way. Christians are. But you guys know I'm not a the world is terrible kind of guy. I try not to, but Christians may be the last ones who are going to care about character. The world is increasingly unbothered by lapses in character. If it gets you to your goal, if you arrive at money or power or whatever, winning and you have to take a shortcut, the world is increasingly not bothered by that.
00:32:19:23 - 00:32:51:21
Clint Loveall
So Christians have to make sure that we are taking our cues and getting our guidance, not from the world around us that doesn't know what to do with character, but from the one within us who is the only model of what it truly means. Christians alone are to be guided by higher thoughts and better ideas, because Christians alone seek to make Jesus above all else.
00:32:51:23 - 00:33:00:00
Clint Loveall
Our guide. So to be Christian is to pursue the character of Christ.
00:33:00:02 - 00:33:26:25
Michael Gewecke
So I think this is where we enter into that conversation about the importance of the foundation of our character. Because at the end of the day, if the foundation of our character is that me living out some version of a moral ethic set of statements, and if I do that, if our foundation is, then it will go well with me.
00:33:26:28 - 00:33:52:05
Michael Gewecke
Think of how quickly it changes when the rules change and your life isn't any better. When you do the things. Actually, when not paying the whole amount of taxes not only financially benefits you, but isn't going to be caught for this and this and this reason, suddenly the better choice for you and for your family. College is expensive these days.
00:33:52:05 - 00:34:38:00
Michael Gewecke
I'm going to write. The better choice suddenly becomes to take the path that would have previously been called good character. And you say, in this case, what? I'm still living out of some version of character because I'm doing what's best for me, for my people. Right? So the foundation of character matters. And as Christians, when we come to talk about character, I honestly to emphasize Clint's point, we might be in a moment in which the renaissance of character is possible, but because Christians no longer have to discern and try to give words to people, the difference between what it means to be a person of an upstanding person who is kind and good and generous,
00:34:38:00 - 00:35:04:18
Michael Gewecke
and the community thinks positive things about right. And then a Christian who stands on the foundation of who Jesus Christ is, and that that's the things that forms our lives and our commitments and that that moves us into a Christian community like we used to have to try to, to bridge that gap. Now we may just be the ones talking about character and in a way that may give us a new opportunity to say, well, why in the world did you do that?
00:35:04:20 - 00:35:51:03
Michael Gewecke
That's what Jesus would do. Right. I mean, that's what Jesus would. I as I read the Bible, Jesus would have stopped to to to care for that person. What you do realize that that person voted for them, right? Yeah, absolutely. I do know that Jesus loves everybody, right? The way which Christian character calls us to live outside of ourselves, into the story of Jesus Christ's mission in the world has a unique way, I think, in this moment of helping Christians differentiate ourselves, because the reality is, at the end of the day, the quickest way for us to realize where our morals are rooted is the moment in which the ground under you shifts, and the
00:35:51:03 - 00:36:14:14
Michael Gewecke
thing that is now good for you is no longer in field of the morals that you once had. The choice that you will make will determine the foundation upon which your character is built. Let me say that more simply, if Jesus Christ is not the center, then if the world says take the shortcut, it'll get you there faster.
00:36:14:16 - 00:36:46:05
Michael Gewecke
We'll take the shortcut. That thing that your parents said character is the thing you do when no one's watching, right? Or Christian's character. Here's the thing that we do because Jesus Christ, alive in union through us, compels us so that we have no other option. The truth is, the world is increasingly having conversations about what you do in public and in private really has no bearing on the outcome of your life.
00:36:46:08 - 00:36:54:17
Michael Gewecke
And if that's the case, Christians have a unique opportunity to give witness to a radically different way of living in the world.
00:36:54:19 - 00:37:12:04
Clint Loveall
Let me end with what I think is a fun story. Then we'll do some questions. Conversation. If there's anything out there. One of my favorite, authors is a pastor, Methodist pastor who became a bishop, and as bishop, he had to go to a church one morning and he was there after church. They have a soup kitchen.
00:37:12:07 - 00:37:34:24
Clint Loveall
So he's during the soup kitchen. And there's a gentleman at the sink that he recognized who was a prominent attorney in town. And he said, good to see you here. It's nice to see you here. And the guy said, yeah. And he said, how long you been doing this? And the guy said, 14 years or something, some long period of time.
00:37:34:26 - 00:37:58:29
Clint Loveall
And the bishop said, well, I'm really impressed. And the guy said, good for you. Yeah. And then he said, you must really enjoy it. The working with the homeless to come here so often. And he said, enjoy it. Have you met these people? They're crazy, they're dirty. They talk to themselves. Half of them are on drugs. And the guy said, well, he didn't.
00:37:59:03 - 00:38:25:15
Clint Loveall
He kind of stumbled easily. I why are you here? And the guy said, I'm here because Jesus put me here. Why are you here? And okay, on one hand, we could say that's a guy not having a great day, right? On another hand, that's a guy who Jesus compels to do something that makes no sense to the world around him.
00:38:25:17 - 00:38:56:03
Clint Loveall
A rich, successful man elbow deep in dishwater, serving the homeless for no other reason. Not because he made him feel good, not because it was community service. Look good on a resume. Because he believed that his Savior, Jesus Christ is Lord, said go humble yourself and serve people who need serving the least of my brothers and sisters. I'm here because Jesus told me to.
00:38:56:05 - 00:39:23:19
Clint Loveall
Why are you here? It's, there's a lot in there. I'm glad I get to speak there, but, there's a lot in there. Okay. We've, We said a lot of words. Hopefully some of them have made sense. What do you think? And questions? Comments? Anything out there? Yes, sir.
00:39:23:21 - 00:39:28:27
Clint Loveall
00:39:29:00 - 00:39:32:25
Clint Loveall
00:39:32:28 - 00:40:13:12
Clint Loveall
So we if if we if we're when you say we can't do it by works for me Lee. Everything hinges on what you understand it to me. If you mean be saved. If you mean receive the grace and righteousness of Jesus Christ. Because I earned it, then that's 100% true. You cannot. If you mean live out your faith and show Jesus Christ to the world, then I say 100%, you can't.
00:40:13:15 - 00:40:41:29
Clint Loveall
So I think that I think there is a difference in there, because that argument of faith and works was so prominent in the Reformed Presbyterian Church. It's really given us the idea that those are separate things. And I think that hurt us. I think when we had the argument because we were fighting, you know, the Catholic Church and and they were they were bigger on works and Luther and Calvin.
00:40:42:06 - 00:41:06:16
Clint Loveall
I think in order to win that battle, we had to go a little far. And so we we then kind of got to the other side and somehow left people with the impression that because you can't be saved by works, you don't really have to do them. And that's that's not biblical. You don't have to do them to be saved.
00:41:06:16 - 00:41:33:27
Clint Loveall
But once you were saved, they're not negotiable. It's non-negotiable to to live your life doing the things of Jesus Christ. So I don't know if that helps, but but from no sorry. You you cannot be saved by works. But once you're saved, there's work to do. That's what I'd say.
00:41:33:29 - 00:42:01:25
Michael Gewecke
Okay, I'm not going to answer your question, but I have a fun illustration, so I'm going to give it, So recently I've been getting to go to a lot of music events, and, I think all of you know that I'm not a musician, so I get to learn a lot. And one of the things I've been learning this season, and this is in the vocal world, I've been learning about this thing called resonance and this idea of singing out in front of you.
00:42:01:27 - 00:42:20:25
Michael Gewecke
And I've been learning about this because the judges were telling the high schools, this is a whole lot of different events. And the great thing about it was all of these different judges were trying to describe this thing to kids. I mean, they're all experts, right? So they hear it. They're trying to help the kids achieve it. They're all saying it in different ways.
00:42:20:28 - 00:42:42:18
Michael Gewecke
So I'll give you an example. One guy, and maybe one of the less helpful ways was say, well, you got to imagine that someone drills through the back of your skull, and then that the air goes through and out. And the kids were, like, shocked by that idea, right? Because that's a very graphic image. And then and then another person said, well, you need to get that sound like the Death Star.
00:42:42:18 - 00:42:58:16
Michael Gewecke
You need to sort of like, get it out here. And, my mother in law, who's a music professional and educator, I was talking to her about it and she said, well, that's often how I describe. I describe as you have to sing out like a unicorn through, like, the top of your head. That's the image I have.
00:42:58:18 - 00:43:21:11
Michael Gewecke
Okay. All of these are different ways in which people are trying to put an experience into words. These kids might not have yet had the experience that they're trying to describe, but they're trying to all come at it from different ways so that the kids, once they have the experience, they'll know what it is, and then they can do it again.
00:43:21:13 - 00:43:44:03
Michael Gewecke
That's, I think, the relationship Christians have to works is that the Ten Commandments aren't there as a checklist that you do that results in an outcome. They're a way in which Scripture and God and this covenantal relationship is trying to tell us, when your life is lived like this, you're going to start experiencing the thing that is relationship.
00:43:44:03 - 00:44:22:23
Michael Gewecke
We're trying to get you to. So. So it's a way in which we can begin to get words from all of these different places in church history. The book is this collection of people's experiences with God that why do we do these things? Because it's like singing like a unicorn. And once you experience the freedom of Christian community, once you experience what it's like to live with integrity and honesty, once once you live your life in such a way that your marriage is held sacred, when you come to worship and you worship God as God and not as some Christian, once you start experiencing these things, the plane lifts off and you're like, oh, this
00:44:22:23 - 00:44:47:17
Michael Gewecke
is what this is. But we can't quite put it into words that simple. So this is the best that we have. And I don't know if the illustration helps you, but it's not about did you did you have somebody drilled through the back? It's not about the image. It's not about what it invites us to. It's rather about once we experience the thing that's intended.
00:44:47:20 - 00:44:57:01
Michael Gewecke
Now all of that makes sense because there's other people trying to describe it saying that's indescribable. That's my take on it.
00:44:57:03 - 00:45:02:28
Clint Loveall
Lynn, let me give it one more shot.
00:45:03:00 - 00:45:43:26
Clint Loveall
As a Christian, your works have zero bearing on whether you're saved or not. As a Christian, your works are the absolute best representation of being saved. The way you live is the best way to live out the fact that you're saved, which is not something you earned, but something you were given. So I think of, I think from our perspective as Presbyterians, that's pretty close to the proper way to understand the priority of faith.
00:45:43:28 - 00:46:22:25
Clint Loveall
But the. Necessity, the importance of works. I'll back off on the word and assess the importance works. So, Yeah. What what else? Might make you not in our first trailer, but realize that the worst. And then boy hamper. Because that last part. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I don't know of anybody who does this better than Paul.
00:46:22:25 - 00:46:49:07
Clint Loveall
In the second chapter of Ephesians, the eighth verse, Paul wrote, you are saved by grace, not by works, so that no one can boast, this is not your own. And then in the 10th verse, he says, you were created in Christ Jesus to do good works. So not not a of a verse after he said, you're not saved by works, he says you're to do good works.
00:46:49:09 - 00:47:00:11
Clint Loveall
And again, I think in the Reformed Church we've unfortunately given the impression that we could separate those into two things.
00:47:00:13 - 00:47:28:28
Clint Loveall
Our, Our choices and the way that we live is essentially a confirmation of the faith that we have. It shows evidence of it. It if I, I know I hate stupid analogies, but if I told you this building was about to fall down and you don't see me running for the door, why would you believe me?
00:47:29:01 - 00:47:31:19
Clint Loveall
Right? I'd be saying the thing that I wasn't doing.
