Two-age Sojourner

The awesome music on this podcast is used with permission by Jeremy Casella. It was written by Jeremy Casella and performed by Indelible Grace. You can listen to more from Indelible Grace and Jeremy Casella by searching on Spotify or Apple Music.Pastor Kevin Chiarot (PCA, Jackson, Tennessee) joins Mike, André and Nick at 3.30 in the morning his time to talk through his paper Another Country. You can find the article for free at:

www.cpcjackson.org/wp-content/uploads/2026/08/Another-Country-050126.pdf

Born out of watching conservative congregants become hyper-politicised through the Trump and COVID years, it argues that the missing thing in the church is heavenly-mindedness: Christians already have another country, thick, real, concrete and glorious, and without that exilic consciousness the gospel becomes an instrument for winning this one. Along the way: why the far left and the far right agree under the skin, how Kevin left theonomy reading 1 Peter, Colossians 3 and ethics from the end, 1 Corinthians 7 and suffering the displacement, what Jesus calls losing the whole culture faithfully, anxious and angry Christians, the church as the only Christian nation, politics like Spanish politics on holiday, the apostles honoured to be dishonoured, and a T. F. Torrance tangent on the church pulled, not pushed, into the future.

Two returning travellers report in. Nick is back from the Canon and Creed conference in Sydney, where a room of Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians tested each other's papers gently instead of tearing each other apart online, one speaker turned out to be magisterial, and the Noahic covenant turned out to be the hinge on which the whole cultural-engagement debate turns (Van Drunen said so about twenty times). Mike is back from Amsterdam, where every Protestant church flew the flags of the age and only the Catholics abstained, and from two weeks of speaking nothing but Greek at Tyndale. In between: the pre-flood and post-flood covenants with Noah, Kline on Cain's mark and the beginnings of the city, the villains of politicised theology and why everyone is watching the culture hand while the gospel hand goes unwatched, sacred space from Heiser to Luther's shoemaker, why two kingdoms is not the sacred-secular divide (apples and pears), Vocalzone lozenges, the Corrie ten Boom house, and a Sojourner Hall Greek intensive that teaches good theology and Greek at the same time.

0:00 Greetings, lost voices and Nick's microphone

2:01 Nick in Sydney: Canon and Creed, Christ College

8:44 A.W. Pink's church and the Noahic covenant lecture

13:20 The Noahic covenant debate: redemptive or common grace?

21:42 Kline, Van Drunen and Cain's mark; Van Drunen is coming on

25:11 Nick's three talks: mission drift and politicised theology

32:08 Bring back the local church; sacred space and Heiser

36:06 Luther, the shoemaker and vocation

40:37 Two kingdoms is not the sacred-secular divide

43:07 Van Drunen lost his voice: the Vocalzone interlude

45:19 Amsterdam: Pride weekend and Kuyper's legacy

49:17 Amsterdam's hidden church and Corrie ten Boom

52:49 Mike's two weeks of spoken Greek

57:48 Immersion done right, and a Sojourner Hall Greek intensive

1:02:03 Sign-off

Mike, André and Nick settle in for an unhurried conversation that starts with a theological question about AI (will there be technology in the new creation, or is AI more weapon than calculator?) and opens out into the big one: how Lewis, Tolkien and the early church fathers held together two statements that sound like rivals, that Christianity is the only true religion and that Christianity is the most true religion. Along the way: Cain's cities and demonically taught knowledge, Silicon Valley shamanism, Peace Child and redemptive analogies, a Muslim Uber driver who oozed wisdom, Pharaoh, Jethro and the Magi, the UK's so-called quiet revival, The Myth of Disenchantment, and why seekers hungry for the supernatural walk past Reformed churches. André closes with a teaser: semper reformanda means retrieving a fully re-enchanted Reformed theology.

Awesome music by Jeremy Casella.

Two Age Sojourner is back. After a long break, Mike, André and Nick pull three chairs back up to the kitchen table for an unhurried, unpolished conversation about theology, the kind you would overhear in a big dining hall. This relaunch episode is partly a "why are we doing this" reset and partly a map of where the show is going: a Reformed Baptist, Klinean conversation that does not pretend to have it all worked out.

Along the way they talk about why Meredith Kline's reading of Scripture still matters (church and state, how to read the Bible, and how Kline unexpectedly prepared them to read the church fathers), the two-register cosmology of the visible and invisible realms, and why spirituality is booming on every side at once, from a revival of conservative Christianity to the rise of paganism, shamanism and DMT "other realm" experiences. They lay out the "study hall" idea, an in-person and online alternative to the conference and the struggling seminary pipeline, and make the case for honest conversation that concedes points to the other side instead of chasing the gotcha moment.

It closes with Nick's upcoming Kennedy Creed conference, a look at the Christian nationalism debate, and a teaser for a future conversation on paganism as pre-Christian preparation, C.S. Lewis and Tolkien, and the retrieval questions around Islam and nationalism.

HOSTS

Michael Beck, Gracenet Community Church, Wellington, New Zealand - https://www.gracenet.co.nz

André Beck, Bethesda Baptist Church, Felixstowe, UK - https://www.bethesdafelixstowe.com

Nick Clevely, Covenant Grace Baptist Church, Timaru, New Zealand - https://www.covenantgracebaptist.church

CHAPTERS

00:00 Intro

00:25 We're back

02:33 How podcasting changed

07:59 Why Kline still matters

10:32 Kline brings everyone to the table

14:12 Andre's PhD and the invisible realms

15:23 Spirituality is booming

17:51 The name: Two Age Sojourner

19:59 Upping the game (and YouTube)

23:40 The study hall idea

30:17 Greystone (and a He-Man detour)

32:29 The seminary pipeline problem

39:11 After truth, not winning

42:50 Nick's conference and Christian nationalism

48:02 Paganism, C.S. Lewis, and Islam (next time)

Website: https://www.gracenet.co.nz

Subscribe: [DRAFT: hosts to confirm the YouTube channel handle]

#reformedtheology #meredithkline #christianpodcast

Two-age Sojourner is hosted by Michael Beck, the pastor of Gracenet Community Church, Wellington, New Zealand (www.gracenet.co.nz).

Each week (well, most weeks), Mike is joined on his pilgrimage by three co-hosts. 

Nick Clevely is the pastor of Covenant Grace Baptist Church in Timaru, New Zealand (www.covenantgracebaptist.church). 

André Beck (yes, he’s Mike’s brother) is pastor of Bethesda Baptist Church in Felixstowe, UK (www.bethesdafelixstowe.com).

Music on this podcast was written by Jeremy Casella and performed by Indelible Grace. 

You can listen to more from Indelible Grace and Jeremy Casella by searching on Spotify or Apple Music."  

For more info, check out www.twoagesojourner.com.

The article being discussed can be found here: https://meredithkline.com/files/articles/The-Feast-of-Cover-Over.pdf

Two-age Sojourner is hosted by Michael Beck, the pastor of Gracenet Community Church, Wellington, New Zealand (www.gracenet.co.nz).

Each week (well, most weeks), Mike is joined on his pilgrimage by three co-hosts. Nick Clevely is the pastor of Covenant Grace Baptist Church in Timaru, New Zealand (www.covenantgracebaptist.church). André Beck (yes, he’s Mike’s brother) is pastor of Bethesda Baptist Church in Felixstowe, UK (www.bethesdafelixstowe.com).

Music on this podcast was written by Jeremy Casella and performed by Indelible Grace. You can listen to more from Indelible Grace and Jeremy Casella by searching on Spotify or Apple Music."

For more info, check out www.twoagesojourner.com.

The book being discussed can be found here: https://www.amazon.com.au/Reformed-Covenant-Theology-Systematic-Introduction/dp/1683597338

Two-age Sojourner is hosted by Michael Beck, the pastor of Gracenet Community Church, Wellington, New Zealand (www.gracenet.co.nz).

Each week (well, most weeks), Mike is joined on his pilgrimage by three co-hosts. 

Nick Clevely is the pastor of Covenant Grace Baptist Church in Timaru, New Zealand (www.covenantgracebaptist.church). 

André Beck (yes, he’s Mike’s brother) is pastor of Bethesda Baptist Church in Felixstowe, UK (www.bethesdafelixstowe.com).

Music on this podcast was written by Jeremy Casella and performed by Indelible Grace. 

You can listen to more from Indelible Grace and Jeremy Casella by searching on Spotify or Apple Music."  

For more info, check out www.twoagesojourner.com.

The article being discussed can be found here: https://meredithkline.com/klines-works/articles-and-essays/death-leviathan-and-martyrs-isaiah-24/

Two-age Sojourner is hosted by Michael Beck, the pastor of Gracenet Community Church, Wellington, New Zealand (www.gracenet.co.nz).

Each week (well, most weeks), Mike is joined on his pilgrimage by three co-hosts. 

Nick Clevely is the pastor of Covenant Grace Baptist Church in Timaru, New Zealand (www.covenantgracebaptist.church). 

André Beck (yes, he’s Mike’s brother) is pastor of Bethesda Baptist Church in Felixstowe, UK (www.bethesdafelixstowe.com).

Music on this podcast was written by Jeremy Casella and performed by Indelible Grace. 

You can listen to more from Indelible Grace and Jeremy Casella by searching on Spotify or Apple Music."  

For more info, check out www.twoagesojourner.com.

Two-age Sojourner is hosted by Michael Beck, the pastor of Gracenet Community Church, Wellington, New Zealand (www.gracenet.co.nz).

Each week (well, most weeks), Mike is joined on his pilgrimage by three co-hosts. 

Nick Clevely is the pastor of Covenant Grace Baptist Church in Timaru, New Zealand (www.covenantgracebaptist.church). 

André Beck (yes, he’s Mike’s brother) is pastor of Bethesda Baptist Church in Felixstowe, UK (www.bethesdafelixstowe.com).

Music on this podcast was written by Jeremy Casella and performed by Indelible Grace. 

You can listen to more from Indelible Grace and Jeremy Casella by searching on Spotify or Apple Music."  

For more info, check out www.twoagesojourner.com.

Two-age Sojourner is hosted by Michael Beck, the pastor of Gracenet Community Church, Wellington, New Zealand (www.gracenet.co.nz).

Each week (well, most weeks), Mike is joined on his pilgrimage by three co-hosts. 

Nick Clevely is the pastor of Covenant Grace Baptist Church in Timaru, New Zealand (www.covenantgracebaptist.church). 

André Beck (yes, he’s Mike’s brother) is pastor of Bethesda Baptist Church in Felixstowe, UK (www.bethesdafelixstowe.com).

Music on this podcast was written by Jeremy Casella and performed by Indelible Grace. 

You can listen to more from Indelible Grace and Jeremy Casella by searching on Spotify or Apple Music."  

For more info, check out www.twoagesojourner.com.