What happening everyone? Welcome to episode 11 of Two Drunks With a Mic. The podcast where we share our past so that others might have a future.

Just a couple of things before we jump into the show. First of all, we want to thank everyone for their continued support through this journey. It’s amazing to hear from people all over the world just what a positive impact our humble little podcast is having in their life.

Second, I want to ask everyone listening to let us hear from you. Go to our website at twodrunkswithamic.com, go to the contact page and drop us a line. Let us know what you like about the show, what you hate about the show, or maybe suggestions on ways we can improve. You can also subscribe to the show on the website as well as find it on Spotify, stitcher, tunein, google podcast, and itunes. We are hoping to be on I Heart Radio pretty soon and will keep you posted on that through our social media pages.

And as always, we ask that you share. Sharing has the greatest impact on our reach.

I want to say this before we get going here. In the making of this episode, we ran into some of the most bizarre problems. We didn’t have the best connection so the sound it kind of weird. I dropped my equipment on the floor while recording. My toddler was trying his best to tear the house down around me. Dogs were going off on both ends of the conversation and a friggin ice cream truck was blasting Christmas music just outside my house. And to top it all off, Skype decided to cut Randy off mid word creating an awkward gap in context. I almost trashed it. But I didn’t because what we did manage to get done needs to be heard. And this is real life and in real life things don’t always go as planned.  

So even before we even had our first episode up, we’ve wanted to get this guest on the show. Though I have never met him, I had heard enough about his story over the years to know that what he has to say, needs to be heard.

Though we don’t get his entire story in this segment, what he has to say is recovery gold. His journey has been one of years of bouncing in and out of jails, halfway houses, and programs. One of struggling to keep his family together, and facing his deepest fears.

So let’s jump into this conversation as we welcome Randy’s brother, Luke, to episode 11, paralyzed liar.

Over the course of years, I created a life for myself in which my addiction was allowed to flourish. I cut out everything and everyone from my life that posed a threat to what I was building.I destroyed relationships, broke promises, lied, cheated, stole, and hid in the shadows.

Any threat of invasion only forced me to reinforce the walls.

Eventually, my creation became perfect. At least perfect in the sense that I was left alone to do what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it. I had achieved the perfect environment to enjoy my hard-fought-for freedom. But what I foolishly thought was freedom was not freedom at all. My sanctum of solace was indeed a prison.

Welcome to episode ten of Two Drunks With a Mic, the podcast where we share our past so that others might have a future. Your subscription and sharing of our show is greatly appreciated and has already had a great impact in getting it in front of people that are being helped. We are grateful and humbled by the testimonials that we receive. I also want to give a shout out to David O. and Eric V. over at podcast recovery dot com. I Had a great time sitting down with them last week on their podcast and sharing my experience, strength, and hope with their audience.

One of the most difficult things I faced in early recovery was trying to come to terms with the lack of trust from those closest to me. Afterall, there I was miles below rock bottom, finally admitting I needed help, and wanting nothing more than to get back some sort of meaningful life.

I was finally surfacing from years of incarceration in my self-made prison; the darkness slowly giving way to the light; I was fighting the hardest I knew how to fight to regain those of whom I feared had been lost forever. For years, I only wanted to be left alone. But now, I was finally at a point, at which I truly wanted, more than anything, to be back among those I had spent years pushing away.

So why wasn’t it happening? What was their hesitation? Why wasn’t I able to make them see and believe that this was truly what I wanted?  Why wouldn’t anyone trust me? But most confusing of all: why was it that the distance between us seemed, at least from my perspective, as far as ever? Though I struggled long and hard to gain understanding, all I ever got from trying to answer these questions myself was anger, frustration, and doubt.

I secretly wallowed in this self-pity until one day I was asked why I thought I deserved to be trusted. Did I feel entitled because I had poured out my guts swearing that I was gonna give it all up for good? Was it because I had agreed to enter a program? In short, I was asked if I felt entitled to their full and undivided trust because of mere words. This deflated me.

I simply couldn’t answer it, at least to a point that justified any thoughts I had of being the victim. And I most definitely couldn’t argue against its logic. I mean let’s be honest here; I had spent years and years lying and manipulating my way through my life. People were simply responding the way that I had conditioned them to. How could I realistically expect any different in those early days?

I couldn’t. And holding on to the idea that I was somehow deserving of their trust was only hurting me. My expectations amounted to no more than resentments waiting to happen. Reflecting on this question brought to me a perspective that forced my misplaced expectation & resentment to slowly give way to healing. Eventually I was able to relax, put my trust in God, and let the process to which I had agreed to adhere to in the program do its thing.

My days of instant self gratification were over.

What does it mean for the addict to surrender? The world tells us it's a weakness. But for the addict, it is the true source of all strength.

All too often we are most willing to stand back and recount, with vivid accuracy, everytime we have been victimized. We will expend a vast amount of energy holding accountable and vilifying those who have wronged us. Even as our world crumbles around us, our focus remains on others. We are loath to let the memory die, no matter how painful. Placing them on the shelves of our mind, where we keep such things, affords us the freedom to dwell and relive at our leisure, keeping these memories alive, perhaps all the while planning our retaliation. On these shelves, the memories stay alive and are never in danger of being forgotten. Though others may forget, we are free to revisit and keep them alive indefinitely. Great lengths are taken to never let them go. Yet this freedom comes at a cost.

Welcome to episode eight of Two Drunks With a MIc. The podcast where we share our past so that others might have a future. Subscribe and share is all we ask. You never know where your efforts to help will land. There are countless struggling addict/alcoholics out there. Some on the verge of completely giving up, giving in to ending their suffering all together. To us this is heartbreaking. We know we can’t help everyone but even if all we do is reach one person, it will all be worth it.

In the early days of my recovery, I was starting to feel really good. I was participating in all of the required program functions, regularly attending 12 step meetings, working with a sponsor, and I was also pretty active at my church. But for as good as I was feeling, I found myself often plagued with a small nagging feeling of unrest. It got to the point that it was getting in the way of positive forward progress and I was concerned. As I processed this concern, working things out through the required journaling and speaking to a few people, it came to light that there was an event in my past that I couldn’t seem to let go of. And, in short, it was eating me up. Couldn’t is actually the wrong word. Truth is, I simply wouldn’t let it go. I had been wronged. Disrespected.I wanted satisfaction. The people and events aren’t important. What is, however, is how I was able to move past this.

One of the programs I was involved with at church was a recovery ministry. I knew the pastor who led the program. I also new his wife. It was during the time at one of these meetings that his wife approached me and mentioned that she thought I seemed as though I had something weighing on my mind. I told her what I had been dealing with and she very matter-of-factly told me that I needed to forgive the person. She wasn’t the first person to tell me this. As a matter of fact, she wasn’t even the third or fourth person. There were many that had given me this counsel. My first and immediate response had always been: screw that. There’s no way that that’s ever gonna happen.

Over the couple of days after speaking to my friend's wife, the constant dwelling on the wrong that had been done to me was replaced with the soft quiet voice telling me that forgiveness was the only option I had if I ever wanted to be rid of whatever this was I was dealing with. So here I was, probably 5 or 6 months sober at this point. Doing great but still resisting. The old self was still hanging on and was hell bent on keeping this one shred of my past alive. It was insanity. I was faced with a choice.

But here’s the irony of it all:  At this point I was spending much of my time in step work reaching out to those I had wronged over the nearly three decade span of my drinking career, doing my best to make amends, and basically asking them to forgive me. Not one person I went to refused. So what was my hangup in extending the same grace that I had been given? I hope the answer is obvious. I was being selfish.

The less people tolerated us, the more we withdrew from society, from life itself. As we became subjects of King Alcohol, shivering denizens of his mad realm, the chilling vapor that is loneliness settled down. It thickened, ever becoming blacker. Some of us sought out sordid places, hoping to find understanding companionship and approval. Momentarily we did - then would come oblivion and the awful awakening to face the hideous Four Horsemen - Terror, Bewilderment, Frustration, Despair.

Welcome to episode 7 of Two Drunks With a Mic. The podcast where we share our past so that others might have a future.

It might be a reasonable assumption that In most cases when the imagery of four horsemen is conjured, the mind may jump back to the Sunday School lessons of one’s youth. The Apostle John’s writings in the book of Revelation are no doubt some of the most thought provoking in literature. Scholars and Laymen alike are usually pretty keen on the idea of throwing their particular interpretation of these writings into the ring during any discussion involving eschatology.

But the Four Horsemen I mentioned a minute ago aren’t these. The short passage I read is obviously not from the 66th book of the Bible. Rather this excerpt is from chapter 11 of The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous.

And just as The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse strike fear into the hearts and minds of Biblical scholars, the Four Horsemen namely, Terror, Bewilderment, Frustration, and Despair strike fear in the heart and minds of the struggling alcoholic.

Jon Vreeland The Taste of Cigarettes: A Memoir of a Heroin Addict

More about Jon Vreeland

If you were told that there was a pill you could take that could cure you of the dread disease by which you were embattled, would you take it? Is there such a pill for the alcoholic? Have I been wrong in my long-held opinion that there is no such thing as a magic pill that as some claim can bring about such a cure for the alcoholic?

Welcome to episode 6 of Two Drunks With a Mic. The podcast where we share our past so that others might have a future. Subscribe and share is all we ask.

In episode 5, The Promises, during my conversation with Gary Farrall, we shared the opinion that there is no magical cure to be found in a pill. I’ve heald this opinion for a long time.

But like I said in our Origins episode, we are not above learning new things. Especially if it can help to save someone’s life. So I revisited my opinion. And like I’ve said before, we will always strive to remain as objective as we humanly can.

What I’ve put together is by no means an exhaustive study. A simple Google search and a dictionary can get a person to where they need to be to find all of the information I have found. All sources are cited in the show notes and I would urge anyone interested to check them out.

So just so I’m clear: It isn’t the efficacy of pharmacological treatments such as the one I am going to discuss that I call into question. Like I have said on many occasions, there isn’t a one-size-fits-all form of recovery. Randy and I really don’t care where you find the solution that fits you, as long as you find one.

Operative term here being treatment.

Now, as to whether or not such a protocol is a good one, there are plenty of people out there to man the fields of that battle. Most debates I have read regarding the validity of one treatment system over another amount to no more than mere spirited opinion being thrown back and forth. And a whole lot of “this didn’t work for me” coming from both sides.

Rather tiresome.

Some have even gone as far as to cast blame on the institution of AA claiming that the organization is blocking the path for what AA detractors feel are better ways. Though there are articles out there that call into question some of the methods used by others, I have yet to read any article written by an AA proponent that categorically denies the effectiveness of these other forms of treatment. I’m sure such articles exist, I’ve just not seen them.    

I’ve got no horse in either race. But whatever you do, make up your own mind.

So this question of whether or not a magic pill exists, stems from the myriad claims that an opiate antagonist, such as one known as Naltrexone, can be, and has been, successfully used to treat and HERE IS OUR WORD “cure” people stricken with, to use the modern term, alcohol use disorder (AUD).  

Though there are others that heavily market themselves as purveyors of such a drug, perhaps the most well known system to employ the use of these particular pharmaceuticals is The Sinclair Method. Or TSM as most of its adherents I found  refer to it. As TSM’s name might suggest, this method was researched and developed by the late doctor, John David Sinclair.

So what is TSM and what is its working design?

In his definitive statement published on the

Welcome to episode five of Two Drunks With a Mic. The place where we share our past so that others might have a future. You can find and subscribe to our podcast at www.twodrunkswithamic.com

In this episode, we pick up where we left off during my conversation with Gary Farrall. So here we go, episode five… The Promises.

2:00 Keeping busy

3:15 Freedom in recovery

3:56 Hope and action equal recovery

4:37 Gary mentions the promises

5:00 Living the steps

7:00 Ian’s struggle with balance

8:33 Incomprehensible demoralization

19:24 Common malady

37:52 Uncertainty about family

38:20 Prayer as a source of hope

42:27 Less work maintaining recovery than maintaining our addiction

44:00 Trusting the process, the program, and God

45:00 Not turning our back to relapse

46:00 Gary discusses his stroke and his road to walking again.

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The 12 promises of AA we mention:

* If we are painstaking about this phase of our development, we will be amazed before we are halfway through. This promise states that people who complete the AA program and make a sincere effort will begin to see changes in their lives even before they are halfway done.* We are going to know a new freedom and a new happiness. People who finish the steps will experience relief from the suffering of addiction and feel free to pursue a new life without alcohol.* We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it. Those who work the program will gain a sense of acceptance that allows them to process their experiences, learn from them, and move on without guilt.* We will comprehend the word serenity, and we will know peace. Addiction can lead to a constant state of inner turmoil. The AA program helps people find a calmness that is rare during active using, and that many addicts have never known in their lives.* No matter how far down the scale we have gone, we will see how our experience can benefit others. Many addicts don’t believe that other people understand what they’ve been through. But in AA, they often meet people who can identify with and learn from their experiences.* That feeling of uselessness and self-pity will disappear. Addiction makes users feel worthless and guilty about their actions. The steps can give people a sense that their lives have a meaning and a purpose, particularly through helping others.* We will lose interest in selfish things and gain interest in our fellows. Addiction leads to many self-centered behaviors. Helping other people find recovery can bring addicts outside of themselves and help them develop a genuine interest in other people.* Self-seeking will slip away. The tunnel vision of focusing only on oneself and drinking usually begins to fade as people work the steps.* Our whole attitude and outlook upon life will change. AA can shift one’s perspective from hopeless to hope. People can begin to imagine a life where they are happy.* Fear of people and of economic insecurity will leave us.

Happy new year everyone and welcome to Two Drunks WIth a Mic. A podcast where we share our past so that others might have a future. You can subscribe to the podcast at two drunks with a mic.com or you can also subscribe and download episodes on Stitcher, Spotify, Apple Podcast, Tunein, Google Podcasts, and any of the fine Android outlets. You can also find and follow us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. We are always looking for ways to improve our show, so any feedback is greatly appreciated. Sharing is also a great way to help out.

On new year’s eve, I had the privilege to sit down with one of the most inspiring people I know. Learning of his journey through forty years of addiction and the redemption he has found in a life of recovery is something that I count as a great blessing in my life. From the pit of absolute hopeless despair, Gary Farrall has taken his gift of a new life and done the one thing that all who enjoy a life in successful recovery do...he’s giving back and paying it forward by helping those who find themselves where he once was...lost.

Hold on pain ends is Gary’s mantra. And thankfully he held on despite my novice interview techniques. So here we go. Part one of a two part series… Hold On Pain Ends.

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Over the weekend, Randy and I sat down and made a recording. I put it in to editing, just about had it done and changed my mind. Well, more accurately, something changed my mind for me.

During my time editing what was going to be episode three, as I listened to Randy and I talking about friends we have lost to addiction and family members who have struggled, a distant memory of a little, gray haired, middle-aged lady that approached me after a church service at Calvary Chapel Santa Barbara in early 2011 came to mind.

Sometimes my memory isn’t the best, but I was pretty sure I didn’t know her and was fairly certain she didn’t know me. Truth be told, I was hoping she didn’t know me because the people that might remember the me that I remembered, were generally looking for revenge.

But nonetheless, there she was. “Hi, may I speak to you?” she asked

“Sure” I replied. A little confused, searching for the closest exit, and thinking that out of the hundreds of people milling about, why me?

“My son is really struggling with drinking” she began, “and I don’t know what to do”. The hurt and helplessness I saw in her eyes was heartbreaking. It was also a look I had seen before in my own mother’s eyes. And so, we talked. Well, she talked and I listened.

After a time, she paused. I raised my eyes to meet hers and said one word — pray. There were a lot of things I could have said to her I suppose. I could’ve told her about my journey, rattled on about all that I had learned in AA, and all that, but I somehow knew that this was not what she needed to hear. Afterall, there is nothing special about me. Though I take full responsibility for where I’d been, I had very little to do with where I was at the time this conversation took place. But I knew from my personal experience what worked and what didn’t.

So why pray? Where did that come from? Why not something like, drag him into a detox center or hospital? Why not tell her to beg and plead with him and promise him the world?

Rapidly blinking, she graciously said “well, I do pray for him”. “Then pray some more” my reply. My suspicion was that she might have been hoping for a different answer. Or maybe she was rethinking her choice of person to talk to. Well I’d said it so I figured the best course of action was to stick by it and explain my conclusion.

A couple of months before this encounter, I had a friend of mine tell me that he and his family had spent years praying for me. Praying that I would find the help I didn’t even know I needed. Praying that I would find peace. When he told me this, a cloud of confusion was lifted from my mind.

You see the fact of the matter is that for a time early in my recovery I couldn’t wrap my head around the fact that I was given the chance to be where I was. In my estimation, of all people, I was the least deserving of a second chance. No matter how hard I tried to come to terms with this idea, I simply couldn’t. But after hearing my friend’s confession, it finally clicked that it was his prayers and the prayers of his family that had everything to do with where I currently found myself. In short, it was God’s grace.

I had several friends in the program tell me that they had similar encounters with confessing loved ones.

For years and years people pleaded with me to stop drinking. I had ruined a marriage just so I could drink. I pushed everyone out of my life that even thought of questioning what I was doing. There was no reasoning with me. There was no amount of tears that could soften my hardened heart...At the end of it all it had been prayer.