Two for Tea Podcast

3:20 Roc’s name

9:00 Childhood and adolescence

28:28 College

31:20 Race and social circles

35:42 “Conservative” ideals which are actually commonsense ideals

37:00 The black community

38:50 Compassion and resilience

43:05 Privilege

48:30 Money, success, winning at the system

53:30 Growing up in the analogue world; living in the digital one

1:09:47 On speaking “for” your community

1:17:25 Shared goals

1:13:34 Science fiction

Roc’s book, Inner Demons: Blazing a Path to Happiness (2018), can be found here:

https://www.amazon.com/Inner-Demons-Blazing-Path-Happiness-ebook/dp/B07GDPB9ZL

Follow Roc’s podcast and find out more about him here:

https://www.rocsworld.com/

Follow Roc on Twitter @TheRocsWorld

1:27 Defining intersex—how common is it?; different types

8:06 Intersex versus trans

12:20 What does it mean to be assigned the “wrong” sex at birth?

25:03 Is sex a spectrum?

30:33 Hermaphrodites

32:33 The condition MRKH and Claire’s own experiences being diagnosed

38:20 CAIS (complete androgen insensitivity syndrome); past approaches to intersex people and more recent changes

47:10 Claire’s Twitter ban; trans activists and intersex people

1:07:40 Some misconceptions about intersex people

You can find out more by following Claire here:

https://mrkhvoice.com/

Further References

Jeffrey Eugenides, Middlesex (2002); Alice Dreger, Galileo's Middle Finger: Heretics, Activists, and One Scholar's Search for Justice (2015)

Fact checking the statistics about the incidence of intersex:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000222z

You can follow intersex activist Emily Quinn on YouTube (highly recommended):

https://www.youtube.com/user/Emilord

And see intersex activist

https://www.youtube.com/user/pidgejen

Aphra Behn, “To the Fair Clorinda” (1688):

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/50479/to-the-fair-clorinda

Natalia Wynn (“ContraPoints”) and her facial feminisation surgery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9mspMJTNEY

2:42 Dayne and Clyde’s backgrounds and why they decided to found Letter

10:50 What is Letter? How does the form nudge us towards more worthwhile forms of exchange.

16:16 How to avoid trolls and call-out culture on a platform.

27:00 How certain technologies facilitate and encourage certain types of use

34:02 The advantage of having a discussion in written form

37:20 Twitter

42:02 Time well spent

44:12 Addiction, unitasking and focus; longer term value

51:19 Connection

58:38 Long-term goals and target audience

59:58 Role models

1:03:20 Facebook

1:08:50 Avoiding outrage culture

References

You can find Letter here:

https://letter.wiki/conversations

For an account of what we are trying to do:

https://areomagazine.com/2019/07/12/lets-change-the-nature-of-public-debate-an-introduction-to-letter/

On the letter exchange between Massimo Pigliucci and David Sloan Wilson:

https://areomagazine.com/2019/07/10/human-cultural-evolution-a-letter-exchange/

On the letter exchange between Gurwinder Bhogal and Iona Italia:

https://areomagazine.com/2019/07/19/memory-and-identity-a-letter-exchange-with-gurwinder-bhogal/

Further References

Mike Nayna’s YouTube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzk08fzh5c_BhjQa1w35wtA

Richard H. Thaler and Cass R. Sunstein, Nudge: Improving Decisions about Health, Wealth, and Happiness (2008)

Sam Harris’ Making Sense podcast:

https://samharris.org/podcast/

Sam Harris’ and Ezra Klein’s conversation:

https://samharris.org/podcasts/123-identity-honesty/

Cal Newport, Deep Work: Rules for Focused Success in a Distracted World (2016)

25:04 Can we derive moral values from reason?

27:30 Veganism

42:20 The nature of sentience

53:20 AI

59:50 Humans versus non-humans

1:03:50 Cognitive dissonance in everyday life

1:08:20 Are the lives of endangered animals worth more? Is there a value to things even when humans can’t experience them?

1:17:20 Potential problems with sentientism

1:30:02 Humanists and their responses to sentientism

Jamie would love to hear your questions or feedback about Sentientism on Twitter at @jamiewoodhouse or @sentientism, via his website or on Medium.

“Sentientism,” writes Jamie, “is a simple, potentially unifying moral philosophy that commits to using evidence, applying reason and granting moral consideration to all sentient beings. It can be seen as an extension of secular humanism. People from over 50 countries are working to build a global community around sentientism. Anyone interested is welcome to participate, whether or not the term sentientism fits personally.” You can find some sentientist groups here:

• Facebook (public) https://www.facebook.com/Sentientism/

• Facebook (private) https://www.facebook.com/groups/sentientism/

• Twitter https://twitter.com/sentientism/lists/sentientists/members

• Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/Sentientism/

• GoodReads https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/840236-sentientism

• LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/groups/12263069/?fbclid=IwAR3aybCvf_mPkB72nufGvM9iyWpmpYZgdjqQwUNK5B2bclJxpxPGEXDmHK0

• Instagram https://www.instagram.com/sentientism/

Jamie’s writing on Sentientism has been published by Areo and by the Center For Inquiry’s Free Inquiry

Further References

Peter Singer: https://petersinger.info/

Sam Harris, The Moral Landscape: How Science Can Determine Human Values (2010)

My description of the Sanjay Gandhi national park: https://fireandvultures.wordpress.com/2017/10/25/india-diary-the-word-for-world-is-forest-trail-hiking-in-the-sanjay-gandhi-national-park/

The petition to save Aarey forest: https://www.change.org/p/cm-devendra-fadnavis-jica-stop-the-cutting-of-3500-trees-in-aarey-forest

Alan Weisman, The World Without Us (2007)

Derren Brown, Happy: Why More or Less Everything Is Absolutely Fine (2016)

Ursula K. Le Guin, “The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas” (1973)

4:06 Melissa’s Methodist upbringing in Singapore

8:49 Press censorship in Singapore; Singapore society in general

14:30 Why Melissa decided to come and study in the US; her studies in genetics (transcriptomics)

21:50 Her meeting with Faisal al Mutar

24:10 Their secular humanists Facebook page

27:55 On the right way to make tea

35:00 Melissa’s early work with Faisal

36:30 Ideas Beyond Borders

49:45 Literacy in the MENA region

51:55 Bringing a new Enlightenment to the Arab world

1:06:30 The books that most influenced us

Find out more about Ideas Beyond Borders here: https://www.ideasbeyondborders.org/;

Follow Melissa on Twitter @MsMelChen

Other References

S. Frederick Starr, Lost EnlightenmentCentral Asia's Golden Age from the Arab Conquest to Tamerlane (2015)

Steven Pinker, Enlightenment Now: The Case for Reason, Science, Humanism, and Progress (2018)

Sam Harris, Lying (2011); The Moral Landscape: How Science Can Determine Human Values (2010)

Deeyah Khan, documentary filmmaker: http://deeyah.com/

Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion (2006)

David Deutsch, The Beginning of Infinity: Explanations that Transform the World (2011)

“Donald Trump” [Tony Schwartz] The Art of the Deal (1987)

George Eliot, Middlemarch: A Study of Provincial Life (1871–2)

Annika Harris, I Wonder (2013)

Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene (1976)

John Rawls, The Theory of Justice (1971)

Derren Brown, Happy: Why More or Less Everything is Absolutely Fine (2016)

My review of Happy for Areo: https://areomagazine.com/2019/01/21/in-praise-of-stoicism-derren-browns-happy-book-review

Letter

Find out more about our new partners, Letter:

https://letter.wiki

I’ve written about it here:

https://areomagazine.com/2019/07/12/lets-change-the-nature-of-public-debate-an-introduction-to-letter/

And I’ve written about one of our letter exchanges here:

https://areomagazine.com/2019/07/10/human-cultural-evolution-a-letter-exchange/

3:40 Chapo Trap House and the phenomenon of internet trolling

8:34 Jordan Peterson

38:01 Postmodernism versus analytic philosophy

40:10 The difference between the new critical theorists and the classic postmodernists

43:56 The implications of this for literary criticism

50:19 Baudrillard—Oliver's favourite postmodernist

51:33 Why postmodernism isn't neo-Marxist

55:35 Complicity and trolling

1:07:30 Free speech, social media and content moderation

1:27:52 Should Oliver celebrate things more and write fewer snarky takedowns?

Oliver’s column for Arc Digital can be found here:

https://arcdigital.media/@olivertraldi.

Oliver’s articles for Areo can be found here:

https://areomagazine.com/author/ideologjammin/

You can follow Oliver on Twitter @olivertraldi

Victor’s podcast can be found here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8gR852kIfIaSLTY5FFMBUg

You can follow Victor on Twitter @cognitivicta

Further References

Oliver’s article on Chapo Trap House and Jordan Peterson:

https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2018/10/clean-rooms-and-dirtbags/

Oliver on complicity:

https://arcdigital.media/one-of-the-most-prominent-norms-on-social-media-is-complicity-c24bd117101c

Democratic Socialists of America:

https://www.dsausa.org/

“The Intentional Fallacy” from The Verbal Icon: Studies in the Meaning of Poetry. W. K. Wimsatt, Jr., and Monroe C. Beardsley (1954):

http://faculty.smu.edu/nschwart/seminar/Fallacy.htm

Jordan Peterson, Maps of Meaning: The Architecture of Belief (1999) and 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos (2018)

Helen Pluckrose and James Lindsay’s interview with Jordan Peterson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWhuQOVTFGw

Cathy Young’s piece on Candace Owens for Quillette:

https://quillette.com/2018/05/08/problem-candace-owens/

Jordan Peterson’s interview with Cathy Newman:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcjxSThD54

Jordan Peterson discusses his concept of truth on Sam Harris’ podcast Making Sense: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OqrZs9srHs

Jean Baudrillard, The Iraq War Did Not Take Place (1995):

http://halliejones.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Baudrillard-The-Gulf-War-did-not-Take-Place.pdf

“Postmodernism isn’t playing around anymore” article by Oliver Traldi:

https://areomagazine.com/2018/01/08/postmodernism-isnt-playing-around-anymore/

John Milon, Paradise Lost (1667); Alexander Pope, To a Lady. Of the Characters of Women (1743).

Gurwinder Bhogal on deradicalising Neo-Nazis on Twitter:

https://areomagazine.com/2017/10/28/how-not-to-de-radicalize-a-twitter-neo-nazi/

Also mentioned: Kate Manne; Luce Iragaray; Robin Di Angelo; Sarah Haider; Shoe 0n Head; James Damore; Stefan Molyneux; Robby Soave

24:11 Should we continue to criticise Islam in the age of Trump or is white nationalism and, in India, Hindutva now a greater threat?

31:13 The close-knit Ahmadi community & the pressures it brings. Sexual segregation. Rules about marriage. Double standards for Ahmadi women.

36:31 Homosexuality in Ahmaddiyat

38:24 Proselytisation

39:48 Raising children within a religion

41:42 Ahmadis in the Western media: contradictions and hypocrises

49:12 Should we respect religion?

51:07 Our overemphasis on terrorism

53:30 Why Ahmadi teachings are non-violent

56:01 Mediated readings of the Quran

1:02:19 Sohail’s experiences of leaving the faith: why he became an activist

1:11:04 Philosophy communities, which might replace religious ones

1:24:17 Adultery versus polyamory

Sohail’s video “Why I am leaving Islam and Ahmadiyyat” can be found here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-jPHr0LrYY

Please check the extensive shownotes to that video for links to his written and video work.

His interview with the Secular Jihadists can be found here:

https://secularjihadists.libsyn.com/ep101-leaving-ahmadiyya-islam-with-reason-on-faith

For more on the Ex-Muslims of North America:

https://exmuslims.org/

For more on Muslimish, see:

https://www.muslimish.org/

You can follow Sohail on Twitter @ReasonOnFaith

Other references

Eiynah “Nice Mangos” on criticising Islam in the age of Trump:

https://soundcloud.com/politeconversations/the-complexity-of-critiquing-islam-under-trump

Douglas Murray, “Here we go again, but this time, je suis Berlin”:

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/12/go-time-je-suis-berlin/

Sohail’s response to this article:

https://reasononfaith.org/commenting-on-douglas-murrays-article-post/

See also Qasim Rashid (@QuasimRashid, formerly @MuslimIQ);

Alishba Zarmeen (@SecularlyYours)

Ali Amjad Rizvi, The Atheist Muslim: A Journey from Religion to Reason (2016)

Yuval Noah Harari, Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind (2014)

The episode of this podcast in which we discuss the theory that early humans were polyamorous is Episode 14 with Cody Moser and William Buckner:

https://soundcloud.com/user-761174326/14-william-buckner-and-cody-moser

5:20 How to begin a story with a moment of unexpected change

5:58 Evolutionary psychology and storytelling

11:46 Status

16:38 Anti-heroes

24:31 Three routes into story: milieu, what if and argument

28:05 The problem with recipes for storytelling

30:01 The broken protagonist

38:37 Loss of control

50:20 What psychology teaches us about stories and vice versa

53:23 Plot-driven versus character-driven novels

57:08 The novel and the advent of human rights

1:00:18 The idea of the ‘trashy’ novel

1:01:48 TV series & soap operas

1:08:04 The story event

1:14:56 Fantasy

1:16:32 Avoiding cliché & other pitfalls

Will Storr’s book, The Science of Storytelling is available in the UK here (and is forthcoming in the US):

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Science-Storytelling-Will-Storr/dp/0008276943.

You can find Will’s The Heretics: Adventures with the Enemies of Science (2014) here:

https://www.panmacmillan.com/authors/will-storr/the-heretics/9780330535861

Complete details of all Will’s work can be found here:

http://willstorr.com/

You can follow Will on Twitter @wstorr

Literary works mentioned:

Shakespeare, King Lear and Julius Caesar; T. E. Lawrence, Seven Pillars of Wisdom (1926);

Jane Austen, Emma (1815);

J. K. Rowling, Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone (1997);

Patrick Süskind, Perfume (1985);

Hogg, The Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner (1824);

Nabokov, Lolita (1955);

Ursula K. Le Guin, The Left Hand of Darkness (1969);

Henry Fielding, Tom Jones (1749);

Samuel Richardson, Pamela (1740) and Clarissa (1748);

Ben Jonson, The Alchemist (ca. 1610);

J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings (1954–55).

TV, radio, film:

Game of Thrones;

Lost;

Twin Peaks;

Breaking Bad;

The Sopranos;

The Archers;

Babylon 5;

Star Wars;

Star Trek Discovery;

Six Feet Under.

Other references:

Amy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY9HuVYWn_Y;

Tony Tanner, Jane Austen (1986). The critic of Tanner’s I refer to around the 39 minute mark was John Mullan;

Roy Baumeister http://www.roybaumeister.com/;

James Boswell, The Life of Samuel Johnson (1791);

Lynn Hunt, Inventing Human Rights (2007);

Lady Mary Wortley Montagu, “The Reasons that Induced Dr. S. to Write a Poem Call’d the Lady’s Dressing Room” (1734). In the podcast, I misattribute lines from this to “Verses Address’d to the Imitator of Horace” (1733).

2:46 Jay’s film Islam and the Future of Tolerance

7:03 Why Jay became a documentary filmmaker

10:05 Why Jay chose to film Sam Harris & Maajid’s Nawaz’s book, Islam and the Future of Tolerance

19:01 Three different mindsets: political, philosophical, psychological

28:00 How responsible is a writer for the way in which he or she is interpreted?

38:24 Different types of Muslims

45:19 Reform versus apostasy

49:16 The problem with Islam

54:19 Who is Maajid Nawaz most skilled at reaching?

56:53 What Jay means by religion and religious ideas and why he is against them.

1:02:23 Jordan Peterson’s definition of religion

1:07:00 Finding meaning without religion

1:11:44 Finding ethics without religion

1:25:22 Creating new gods

1:33:44 Philosophy and modern life

You can find out more about the documentary film Islam and the Future of Tolerance here:

http://www.islamandthefutureoftolerance.com/

It is based on Sam Harris & Maajid Nawaz’s book of the same name, published in 2015.

For Jay’s film Opposite Field see:

http://www.opposite-field.com/

and for his film All Rise see:

http://www.docnyc.net/film/all-rise/

You can follow Jay on Twitter @jay_shapiro

Other references:

Mike Nayna, documentary filmmaker: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzk08fzh5c_BhjQa1w35wtA

Sam Harris, The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason

(2004) and The Moral Landscape: How Science Can Determine Human Values (2010)

Maajid Nawaz, Radical: My Journey out of Islamist Extremism (2012)

The Quilliam Foundation:

https://www.quilliaminternational.com/

The Intelligence Squared debate on the topic Is Islam a Religion of Peace?, featuring Maajid Nawaz, Zeba Khan, Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Douglas Murray:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUGmv5TGaTc

Ali Rizvi’s The Atheist Muslim: A Journey from Religion to Reason (2016)

David Deutsch, The Beginning of Infinity: Explanations that Transform the World (2011)

Sean Carroll’s Moving Naturalism Forward conference:

https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/naturalism2012/

Richard Dawkins, The Ancestor’s Tale: A Pilgrimage to the Dawn of Life (2004)

Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space (1994)

Laurence Krauss, A Universe from Nothing (2012)

Oliver Morton, Eating the Sun: How Plants Power the Planet (2007)

Matt Ridley, The Rational Optimist: How Prosperity Evolves (2010

Noah Yuval Harari, Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind (2011)

and Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow (2016)

Other people mentioned: Coleman Hughes, Jordan B. Peterson, Haras Rafiq

Timestamps:

3:45 Armin’s upbringing in Iran

9:05 Armin’s fear of hell and how it drove him to attempt suicide

18:29 How seriously do people generally take religion?

21:32 Sex and religion

23:33 The true costs of religion

25:42 Armin loses his faith

28:27 Opposition to theocracy in Iran

32:03 Iranian ethnonationalists; Zoroastrianism

52:33 The MEK

56:12 The monarchists

01:02:03 Secular democrats

01:02:49 Ethnic minority groups in Iran

01:04:03 People with economic grievances

01:04:50 Conflicts between the various groups

01:07:01 Opposition to foreign intervention

1:11:57 Paranoia and conspiracy theories

1:23:08 Grass roots opposition to Islamic extremism and theocracy

1:37:44 How can we support atheists and secularists within Iran

Armin Navabi is the founder of http://www.atheistrepublic.com/ and the co-host of the podcast “Secular Jihadists” (with Ali Rizvi, see episode 8 of this podcast). You can find them here:

https://secularjihadists.libsyn.com/

and here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmR6dMMdVE9lhsRAOn56K3A.

Armin is the author of Why There Is No God: Simple Responses to 20 Common Arguments for the Existence of God (2014).

Follow Armin on Twitter @ArminNavabi or on Facebook: Armin.Navabi.

To learn more about the secularist campaign in Iran, follow the social media hashtags #MyStealthyFreedom #WhiteWednesdays and #MyCameraIsMyWeapon and read Masih Alinejad’s book The Wind in my Hair: My Fight for Freedom in Modern Iran (2018).