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THE FORGOTTEN UFO INVESTIGATOR: WILLIAM STEINMAN, AZTEC AND THE SECRETS OF WHITE SANDS

This week’s summer rerun is a very personal episode for host Michael Ryan.

Our guest is the late Dr. Frank Thayer—author, UFO researcher, professor emeritus at New Mexico State University and co-author of The Aztec UFO Incident. Long before appearing on UFO Talker, Frank was Michael’s journalism professor and mentor at Centennial College in Toronto. The lessons Frank taught him about journalism, writing and searching for the truth have remained with Michael throughout his career.

Since this interview was originally recorded, Frank Thayer passed away on June 28, 2026, at the age of 86. In recognition of Frank’s lasting influence, the entire upcoming fifth season of UFO Talker will be dedicated to his memory.

In this interview, Frank discusses William Steinman, the determined but largely forgotten researcher who investigated the alleged 1948 UFO recovery near Aztec, New Mexico. Steinman followed the trail left by Frank Scully’s controversial 1950 book, Behind the Flying Saucers, travelled to New Mexico and located what he believed was the Aztec recovery site.

Frank describes Steinman as an intelligent, fact-based and tireless researcher who continued defending his conclusions until the end of his life. According to Frank, Steinman possessed additional information that never appeared in his published work, and his collection of research papers may have been lost following his death.

The conversation also explores Steinman’s correspondence with Dr. Robert Sarbacher, including Sarbacher’s statements about scientists who may have been connected to classified UFO crash-recovery work. Frank recounts claims that Steinman was warned against publishing his research, suffered professionally after doing so and later believed he was being watched.

Frank also explains why he considered the alleged Aztec recovery potentially even more significant than Roswell. Unlike the badly damaged object reportedly recovered near Roswell, the Aztec craft was said to have arrived largely intact, with 16 bodies allegedly discovered inside. Frank discusses the extensive work undertaken by Scott and Suzanne Ramsey to locate witnesses and determine how such a large craft could have been transported from the mesa to Los Alamos.

The discussion then moves to the mysteries surrounding White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico. Frank recounts reports of unidentified objects flying alongside experimental missiles, a landed translucent craft, automobile engines stopping beneath a hovering object, unusual V-2 missile incidents and other disturbing stories associated with the restricted military range. Some of these accounts remain unverified, but together they form a fascinating and little-known chapter of UFO history.

Highlights include:

• William Steinman’s investigation of the alleged Aztec UFO recovery
• Why Frank Thayer believed Steinman deserved greater recognition
• Steinman’s important correspondence with Dr. Robert Sarbacher
• Claims that Steinman was warned not to publish his findings
• The possibility that Steinman’s unpublished research archive was lost
• Witness testimony associated with the alleged Aztec recovery
• How an intact craft could reportedly have been transported to Los Alamos
• UFOs allegedly observed near missiles tested at White Sands
• Strange aircraft and missile incidents in southern New Mexico
• Frank’s friendship with Stanton Friedman
• Frank’s years teaching journalism at Centennial College
• His memories of teaching future Canadian comedy legend John Candy
• The story behind the traditional journalism sign-off “30”

At the conclusion of the interview, Michael explains that the number “30,” heard at the end of every UFO Talker episode, has always been a quiet tribute to Frank and everything he taught him. In traditional journalism, “30” signalled the end of a transmitted news story—confirmation that there were no additional pages to follow.

Appropriately, Frank delivers the final words of this episode himself:

“30. That’s a wrap.”

Frank Thayer will be deeply missed, but his voice, his work and the knowledge he passed on to generations of students will continue.

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Keep watching the skies.

From the UFO Talker Summer “Best Of” Repeat Series
Season 2, Episode 9
Originally aired November 1, 2023

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This week on the UFO Talker Podcast, we return to one of the most intriguing—and largely forgotten—chapters in Ontario UFO history: a series of unidentified objects reported over and around the Pickering Nuclear Generating Station during the mid-1970s.

Michael Ryan examines the work of Southern Ontario UFO researcher Dennis Prophet, a former member of the Royal Air Force who became deeply involved in UFO investigation after having his own sighting in 1974. Prophet converted a 1974 Dodge van into a mobile UFO-observation vehicle and privately published a rare booklet titled The Amazing West Hill–Pickering Sightings.

Among the incidents recorded by Prophet was a remarkable event on February 4, 1975, when CHOO Radio music director and private pilot Andy Parks reportedly saw as many as twelve UFOs near the Pickering nuclear station. Parks brought a radio news crew to the area, where the objects were also reportedly observed by three Ajax-Pickering ambulance drivers, a Durham Regional Police officer and other witnesses.

The episode also examines additional reports of bell-shaped objects over Scarborough and Pickering, including an incident in which five objects remained visible for several hours. One witness described a smaller disc apparently emerging from beneath one of the larger objects.

Michael connects these historical cases with more recent efforts to uncover information about UFO reports near Canadian nuclear facilities, including investigative journalist Daniel Otis’s attempts to obtain records from Ontario Power Generation.

Also in this episode, Christine Scott reviews The Man Who Mastered Gravity by Paul Schatzkin. The book explores the mysterious life and work of physicist and inventor Thomas Townsend Brown, his experiments involving electrogravitics, his classified military connections and his important place in UFO history as one of the founders of NICAP.

The episode also features the dramatic 1976 UFO encounter of Joseph Robichaud near Richibucto, New Brunswick, along with a roundup of Canadian civil-aviation reports involving unidentified objects.

Why have unidentified objects been reported near nuclear facilities for so many decades—and what might still remain hidden in government and corporate files?

This “Best Of” rerun was originally aired on January 24, 2024, as Season 2, Episode 21 of the UFO Talker Podcast.

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Female announcer:  Joy Ryan
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What Did Captain Thomas Mantell Chase? An Interview With His Grandson, Terry Mantell

This week, UFO Talker returns to one of the most important—and tragic—cases from the early history of the UFO phenomenon.

Originally released as Season 1, Episode 21, on January 18, 2023, this episode features an in-depth interview with Terry Mantell, grandson of Captain Thomas F. Mantell.

On January 7, 1948, military personnel at Godman Army Airfield in Kentucky observed an unidentified object in the sky. Captain Mantell, a decorated Second World War pilot serving with the Kentucky Air National Guard, was asked to investigate while flying a P-51 Mustang near the area.

Mantell climbed in pursuit of the object, but his aircraft crashed near Franklin, Kentucky. He was only 25 years old. The case made headlines around the world and became one of the earliest and most consequential military UFO encounters in American history.

Terry Mantell discusses the man behind the famous case: a courageous D-Day pilot, husband and father whose family spent decades searching for answers about his death. We examine Mantell’s distinguished wartime service, his extensive flying experience and the profound effect his loss had on his wife, children and mother.

The episode also explores:

• The official timeline of the January 7, 1948, encounter.
• The numerous military personnel who observed the object from the Godman control tower.
• Mantell’s final reported radio transmissions.
• Conflicting accounts of why his two wingmen ended their climb.
• The absence of statements from those wingmen in the released Air Force documents.
• Early claims that Mantell had been pursuing the planet Venus.
• The later theory that the object was a classified Skyhook balloon.
• Questions concerning whether any Skyhook balloon was actually launched that day.
• The controversial 1996 account of control-tower witness Quentin Blackwell.
• Blackwell’s claim that Mantell ordered his wingmen to return for aircraft with “hot guns.”
• His description of an enormous structured object with what appeared to be observation windows.
• The Mantell family’s belief that important information was withheld from them.

This episode does not claim to provide a definitive identification of the object. Instead, it examines the contradictions, missing testimony and unanswered questions that have prevented the Mantell Encounter from being comfortably resolved.

At the heart of the story is a family that lost a son, husband and father while he was serving his country—and which is still waiting for answers.

Originally broadcast: January 18, 2023
Original episode: Season 1, Episode 21
Summer “Best Of” repeat release: September 2, 2026

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Female announcer:  Joy Ryan
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SUMMER “BEST OF” REPEAT SERIES
Season 3, Episode 5 — Originally aired November 7, 2024

Two aircraft. Two encounters near Gander International Airport. Three experienced pilots—and an unidentified object that appeared to pace their aircraft.

In this summer repeat, Michael Ryan and commentator Christine Scott revisit a remarkable series of UFO encounters over central Newfoundland in October 1974, documented in the files of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

On the night of October 10, 1974, John Breen was flying a Cessna back to Gander from Deer Lake with passenger Janice Gould when they noticed a mysterious green luminous object below the aircraft. Breen was not only a pilot but also an air traffic controller at Gander International Airport.

For approximately 25 minutes, the strange light appeared to pace the Cessna—moving ahead, dropping behind and returning beneath the aircraft. Breen even switched off his own aviation lights to make sure they weren't responsible for what he was seeing.

As the Cessna approached Gander, Breen contacted air traffic control. Controllers attempted to locate the object and a target appeared on Gander radar for two sweeps before disappearing. According to the RCMP report, the target did not appear on the radar screen as an aircraft.

But the story wasn't over.

In the early morning hours of October 11, the captain and co-pilot of a Capital Airlines DC-8 descending toward Gander International Airport encountered another unidentified object.

This time the object displayed flashing red and white lights and flew alongside the DC-8 for approximately five to seven minutes. It would move slightly ahead of the jet before returning alongside it—the same strange pacing behaviour reported during the Cessna encounter.

Both pilots stated that, in their opinion, the object was not an aircraft. Air traffic control did not detect another target during this second encounter.

Authorities connected with the early-warning defence system at Goose Bay were notified, and the RCMP report was ultimately forwarded to the National Research Council in Ottawa.

What were these objects? And why did two different aircraft encounter something displaying remarkably similar behaviour near the same major international airport within hours of one another?

Michael and Christine examine the evidence and the intriguing details preserved in the original RCMP files.

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Female announcer:  Joy Ryan
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Originally released as Season 3, Episode 17 on February 19, 2025.

Three women reported seeing an enormous UFO hovering over their Calgary apartment complex on January 2, 1975. According to statements taken by the RCMP, the silent grey craft approached from the distance before stopping approximately 350 feet above them.

Using the apartment building as a reference, the investigating officer estimated that the object may have measured approximately 180 feet long and 120 feet wide. The witnesses described brilliant lights around the craft and an unusual tan, Y-shaped marking across its underside.

The encounter became even stranger when the women reported that the normally populated area seemed strangely deserted. One witness screamed and jumped up and down as a man walked past, yet he apparently failed to notice either her distress or the massive object overhead.

Michael Ryan and commentator Christine Scott examine whether this disturbing sense of isolation could represent the “Oz Factor”—a sensation of altered reality sometimes reported during close UFO encounters. They also consider whether the witnesses may have experienced missing time.

Also featured in this episode:

• A 1963 Royal Canadian Air Force memo concerning Project Magnet and Canadian UFO researcher Wilbert B. Smith

• Reports of mysterious lights observed by pilots over Western Canada

• The unusual illnesses reported by former workers at Area 51

• A discussion of the important role the RCMP played in investigating Canadian UFO reports

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Female announcer:  Joy Ryan
Male announcer: Andrew Helbig
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Season 4 Episode 12 — Originally Aired December 3, 2025

Why was the Canadian military so interested in a UFO sighting over the tiny hamlet of Vidora, Saskatchewan?

In this episode of UFO Talker, Michael Ryan and Christine Scott examine a remarkable 1967 RCMP case involving multiple witnesses who observed two mysterious aerial objects over two separate nights. One witness reported that the brilliant orange object flew just 20 to 30 feet above the ground, appeared to pace his vehicle, and illuminated the inside of his car with an intense light.

As Michael and Christine dig through original RCMP correspondence, an even bigger mystery begins to emerge. Why were senior RCMP officers forwarding these reports directly to the Department of National Defence? Why was a high-ranking Canadian military officer acknowledging receipt of the information for inclusion in a "master sighting file?"And what exactly was the Canadian military's role in investigating UFO reports during the 1960s?

Using primary source RCMP documents, the hosts connect the Vidora incident with other historic Canadian UFO cases, including the Putnam and Stephen Michalak encounters, raising fascinating questions about what Canadian authorities may already have known.

Also in this episode, Christine reviews Ralph Blumenthal's acclaimed biography The Believer, exploring the life and work of Harvard psychiatrist Dr. John Mack, whose groundbreaking research into alien abduction experiences challenged conventional thinking and sparked one of Harvard University's most controversial investigations.

Plus:

• A bizarre glowing red ring photographed over northern Italy.
• Continuing reports of mysterious drone incursions over European military bases.
• A listener shout-out to Huntsville, Ontario.
• Canadian Civil Aviation Daily Occurrence Reporting System (CADORS) incidents from across Canada.

If you enjoy historical UFO investigations built around original government documents rather than speculation, this is an episode you won't want to miss.

#UFO #UAP #CanadianMilitary #RCMP #Vidora #Saskatchewan #UFOTalker #JohnMack #TheBeliever #RalphBlumenthal #HistoricalUFOs #UFOInvestigation #GovernmentDocuments #AlienAbduction #CanadianHistory #Podcast

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Female announcer:  Joy Ryan
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The UFO Case That Silenced Airline Pilots

What happens when a respected airline captain publicly reports a UFO... and refuses to change his story?

In this Summer "Best Of" repeat from Season 2, Episode 16, Michael Ryan and Christine Scott revisit one of the most significant—and often overlooked—cases in UFO history.

On the night of February 24, 1959, Captain Peter Killian and the crew of American Airlines Flight 937 watched three mysterious objects pace their DC-6 for more than half an hour as they flew from Newark to Detroit. Other airline crews confirmed the sighting, passengers were invited to look out the windows, and the story made headlines across North America.

But when official explanations failed to satisfy the witnesses, something changed.

Many researchers believe the Killian Incident marked the beginning of a new era—one in which commercial airline pilots became increasingly reluctant to speak publicly about UFO encounters. Was this simply another unexplained sighting, or did it fundamentally change the relationship between aviation and the UFO phenomenon?

Join Michael and Christine as they examine the original reports, the Air Force response, Donald Keyhoe's involvement, and why this remarkable case still matters more than sixty-five years later.

Also in this episode:

• UFO books that make great additions to any library
• A "Moment in UFO History" featuring pioneering investigator Anne Druffel
• Canadian Civil Aviation Anomalies
• An audio excerpt from Humanoids and High Strangeness: Twenty True UFO Encounters by Preston Dennett

If you enjoy the show, please subscribe, leave a review, and share UFO Talker with a friend. Your support helps us continue exploring the mysteries that have fascinated generations.

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Female announcer:  Joy Ryan
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Season 2, Episode 10 (Originally Released on November 8, 2023)

What would you do if something enormous, silent, and impossible drifted across the night sky while you were on duty?

In this Summer "Best Of" episode of UFO Talker, Michael Ryan is joined by retired Halifax Police officers Rick Prescott and Rob Furlong, who recount one of Canada's most compelling police UFO encounters.

While working the night shift in Halifax, Nova Scotia, the two veteran officers observed a massive black triangular object slowly crossing the sky. The craft made no sound, displayed no conventional means of propulsion, and moved so slowly that both men immediately realized they were witnessing something unlike any aircraft they had ever encountered.

As the object continued across the sky, dispatch contacted both Halifax International Airport and CFB Shearwater to determine whether anything appeared on radar. The answer was the same from both locations: nothing.

For years, the officers kept their experience private, concerned about the stigma that often follows anyone reporting an unexplained aerial encounter. Now, they share the remarkable details of what they witnessed and explain why, after all these years, they still cannot identify what they saw.

In this episode:

• The complete account of the Halifax Black Triangle UFO
• Why two experienced police officers immediately ruled out conventional aircraft
• The calls made to airport and military authorities
• Why the sighting remained private for years
• Additional unexplained UFO reports from Nova Scotia

If you enjoy carefully researched UFO cases based on firsthand witness testimony, this is an episode you won't want to miss.

Website: www.ufotalker.ca  

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This episode originally aired in Season 4, Episode 19 of the UFO Talker Podcast.

In the summer of 1973, two young sisters were playing outside their family home in rural northern Maine when they looked up and saw something extraordinary—a huge, silent, saucer-shaped object hovering above them.

The older sister became frightened and grabbed her younger sister, pulling her toward the house. They ran across the lawn and headed for the front porch.

Then the memory stops.

Thirteen years later, the sisters finally talked about what happened that afternoon and discovered they both remembered the same encounter—and neither could remember what happened after they reached the porch.

Months later, the family witnessed another strange event.

Two mysterious balls of light moved through the night sky, circling and coming closer to the family home. As the sisters sat upstairs with their mother, a brilliant light suddenly flooded their bedroom. It was so intense they could not open their eyes.

One sister screamed.

And once again, the memory stops.

Michael Ryan talks with Tabby Rideout about the strange UFO encounters she experienced with her sister, the missing time surrounding both events, and the questions that have remained with them for more than 50 years. 

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Female announcer:  Joy Ryan
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Author Bill Rountree Talks About His 50-Year Journey of Alleged Alien Encounters

Season 2 Episode 31.  From the Summer rerun series.  What would you do if you believed something unexplained had been visiting you since childhood?

In this episode of UFO Talker, Michael Ryan sits down with author Bill Rountree to discuss the extraordinary experiences detailed in his book, Aliens Are With Us. Bill describes what he says began when he was just a young boy growing up in Atlanta, Georgia—strange nighttime encounters with a mysterious hovering device that he believes was not of this world.

For more than fifty years, Bill says these unexplained events continued throughout different stages of his life. During the interview, he explains why he remained silent for decades, the ridicule he feared, and why he finally decided to share his story publicly after retirement.

Among the topics discussed:

• Bill's first childhood encounters and the mysterious hovering object he repeatedly observed.
• Why he believes the experiences continued for over five decades.
• Alleged telepathic communication with the mysterious visitors.
• The emotional toll of keeping such experiences secret from family and friends.
• Why he believes the encounters suddenly came to an end.
• His thoughts on why some people may experience repeated contact while others do not.
• The motivation behind writing his book Aliens Are With Us.
• Whether increased public discussion of these experiences may be preparing society for a larger revelation.

As always, Michael approaches the conversation with an open but thoughtful mind, allowing listeners to hear Bill's story in his own words while considering the broader questions surrounding the UFO mystery.

Also in this episode:

• Upcoming UFO conferences and events in Pennsylvania, Texas, and Nova Scotia.
• A shout-out to listeners in Irmo, South Carolina.
• This week's Canadian Civil Aviation anomaly reports.

Whether you believe Bill's experiences were extraterrestrial, psychological, or something entirely unknown, his story offers a fascinating look at one person's lifelong attempt to understand events that he says changed his life forever.

Thank you for listening to UFO Talker. If you enjoy the show, please consider leaving a review, subscribing, and sharing the podcast with others who are interested in the mystery of UFOs and unexplained phenomena.

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Female announcer:  Joy Ryan
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Christine Scott's Centennial Books 1230 Broad Street. Regina, Sask.