In this episode, Nick speaks with Myrna Scales about the Enneagram and how understanding our personality type not only helps us understand ourselves better but can help us understand the people around us and can ultimately better our relationships.

What to listen for:

“When you find your type, you can look at it and see where you can go when you’re in growth, where you go when you’re stressed out and unhealthy. You can look at different wings to see, you know because we’re complex people. You can’t just put one number on it.”

“If you read a book about the Enneagram, you’re going to see that there’s the motivation, the basic fear, the basic desire. And so, answering these questions can help you find your type.”

About Myrna Scales:

Myrna Scales is a USAF pilot wife, a mom to two young boys, a certified Enneagram coach, and TEDx Speaker. She got into the Enneagram after finding out her youngest son had cancer. She loves helping people find their type and become confident in who they are.

Resources:

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Your Friends at “The Mindset & Self-Mastery Show”

Nick McGowan (00:01.098)
Hello and welcome to the Mindset and Self Mastery show. I’m your host, Nick McGowan, and today on the show I have Myrna Scales to talk about the Enneagram. Some of you may know what the Enneagram is, some of you must wonder if it’s sort of like a new version of Instagram. It’s not. It’s something we’re going to be able to get into, but Myrna, why don’t you kick us off. Tell us what you do for a living and what’s one thing that most people don’t know about you that’s maybe a little odd or bizarre?

Myrna Scales (00:29.078)
Hi everyone, thanks for having me, Nick. I’m so glad to be here. I am a mom of two boys and a US Air Force pilot wife and I am a certified Enneagram coach and a blogger. And I help moms and other people that want to learn more about the Enneagram or find their type or just want to grow. Self-improvement is very important to me.

I’m excited I get to share my story today. One thing that people don’t know about me… I don’t know if this is odd or bizarre, but…

when American Idol was a huge thing. I was like a freshman in high school and I auditioned. I auditioned twice actually. I thought that I was gonna become a singer, a famous singer one day and so I did audition and I was able to go through the first phase but then the second phase I didn’t go through but it was an experience and a lot of people don’t know that about me.

Nick McGowan (01:23.242)
Nice.

Nick McGowan (01:42.414)
that is kind of a random thing, because I know there were a lot of people that tried out just over the years and all, but there were a lot of people that also weren’t able to even get in. Like I’ve had friends over the years that are like, I sat in line for what seemed like decades and they didn’t even get in. So when you got in, you did the first round, what did you sing?

Myrna Scales (02:03.158)
Um, At Last, the old, the old fashioned wedding song, At Last. It was one of my favorite go-tos when I was in high school, college.

Nick McGowan (02:18.434)
That’s pretty cool. Were you nervous as all hell, or did you just get in there and just do it?

Myrna Scales (02:19.915)
Yeah.

Myrna Scales (02:24.258)
I was really nervous because there were thousands and thousands of people. And I did it when it was in Atlanta one year and then Nashville one year. And so just like putting yourself on the spot, going in front of the judges, not knowing what they’re thinking. Did I wear the right outfit? Is my hair good? So like each time I was total opposite. So the first time I was like more simple and the second time I was like I have to go more crazy and my hair was all big.

again. So it was fun though. It was what I wanted to do with my life so I was excited.

Nick McGowan (03:04.326)
cool. A lot of people don’t have the ambition to go do that and they don’t have the courage to be able to go do it and set themselves up for potentially being mocked or turned into… I forget what was that one guy’s name? He was an Asian guy that like tried to sing his heart out and they just like turned him into a meme in the beginning before even memes were a thing. I forget what his name was. Oh well, I hope he’s doing okay. Whatever.

Myrna Scales (03:26.737)
Yeah.

Myrna Scales (03:31.118)
I forget what his name is.

Nick McGowan (03:35.327)
But so that is an interesting thing. That’s one of those like trivia sort of conversations like, yeah, well here, I’ve done this before. But why don’t we, why don’t you talk to us about the Enneagram?

Myrna Scales (03:43.69)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (03:47.438)
and not only how you got into it, but explain it a bit. Because again, I know there are certain people listening to the show that know what the Enneagram is, but maybe don’t know what their type is, or what their wings are, or what their family and friends are, or even what the hell I’m talking about. So why don’t you just take it from there?

Myrna Scales (04:04.382)
Yeah. Oh my gosh, it was so funny when you said the Enneagram, it might sound like a different version of Instagram or something. And that’s exactly what I thought when I first saw it. I was like, what is this? But do you want me to share my story first and then get into the different types or do you want me to kind of explain what it is first?

Nick McGowan (04:32.11)
Why don’t you explain a little bit what it is first and then tell us your story and kind of interweave it all.

Myrna Scales (04:37.314)
Gotcha. So the enneagram is, so ennea is Greek for.

nine and gram is Greek for drawing and so it’s a nine point drawing and so the points are nine different personality types and the Enneagram is kind of looking at ways that we coped with stress and different circumstances as children and so as a child when you’re going through something

Myrna Scales (05:15.86)
times we bring that coping mechanism into adulthood and the ways that we’re doing things, you know, doesn’t always work for our relationships or our professional life. And so that’s why a lot of people when they get to, you know, college and they’re working with certain people, they’re like, this is hard. And like, why am I like this? Or why is this person like this? They get on my nerves. And then you start thinking more about like, what

You know, if you want to start that self-discovery journey. And so the Enneagram kind of shows you that coping mechanism. So you get your type, and then when you find your type, you can look at it and see where you can go when you’re in growth, where you go when you’re stressed out and unhealthy. You can look at different wings to see, you know, because we’re complex people. You can’t just put one number on it.

different aspects to it and so as you go deeper you’ll find the wings, you’ll find the subtypes and that’s a little more complex, but I can go over each type, you know briefly just so everyone can get an idea. So it’s nine types, so I’ll start at one and so the type one is a perfectionist, a reformer, someone that likes to check off their box, check off their to-do list, all

working like let me get all this stuff done before I can relax and even when they’re relaxing they’re not they’re thinking about the next thing on their to-do list they have an inner critic that’s really tough on them and so you know

If they make a mistake or if they’re being criticized, they take it very strongly. And also, their desire is just to be good, just to make good decisions and be a moral person. Type twos are the helpers or the givers. These are the people that are the best host or hostess. They are very nurturing and gentle. They care about people. You can probably see them as nurses, social workers.

Nick McGowan (07:26.266)
Mm-hmm.

Myrna Scales (07:33.872)
They know what people need before the person knows what they need type of deal, but they can take it to an excessive point where they want to be needed so much that they’re stepping in where they don’t need to be stepping in and like trying to provide help where nobody asked you for help, you know, and they’re just wanting to be appreciated. And so…

Nick McGowan (07:56.666)
Hehehe

Myrna Scales (08:00.298)
We go to the type three and those are the achievers, the go-getters, the people that, they’re image-cautious, they’re, like you’re never gonna see them with a hair out of place. You know, they look good, they are always going after their dreams and their goals, they don’t like to lose, they can be competitive. You know those people, they’re on YouTube and like,

They’re just go-getters and they’re gonna make it work. But they’re also really good at like, they’re chameleon-like. So they can be who they need to be to win the room, if that makes sense. So that’s the type three. And then we go to the type four. And I think that’s what you are, Nick, right?

Yeah, so the type four, the type four are the romantics or the individualist. They want to feel special. They want to feel unique and they want to be seen and feel valued. And so you might see these people as artists.

Nick McGowan (08:55.167)
Yep, that’s me.

Myrna Scales (09:19.475)
photographers, like they see the beauty in the most simple things.

They might be authors as well. They write beautiful poetry. So you can see all kinds of different forms of, creative forms there. But also they’re really good at feeling their emotions and sitting with others that are feeling emotions as well. And so if you’re having a problem and you need a friend to go to, cause you’re feeling hurt and sad, they’re the ones you can reach out to. Because they might not say anything, but they’re gonna make you feel

like they get it, because they truly do. And I’m trying to see, there’s a funny thing that I usually say, but type four is, you’ll never see them wearing name brands, you know? They’re like going to Goodwill, they gotta have like the vintage outfits, like putting clothes together. So they just wanna feel special and feel different.

Nick McGowan (10:14.073)
Thank you.

Myrna Scales (10:18.078)
The Type 5 is the investigator. They… Thanks. Type 5 is the investigator and they are the observer type. They’re going to analyze the room. They might seem introverted. They might seem quiet. They…

Nick McGowan (10:21.475)
Nailed it.

Myrna Scales (10:39.262)
want to feel like they’re capable. Like, I’m knowledgeable before I’m stepping into this room. I’m knowledgeable before I do this job. They’re gonna do their research. They’re gonna know all their stuff. The setback is sometimes people might be like, oh, they’re really quiet and awkward, or they’re so introverted and distant, and some people might not like that. But if you find what they’re into,

sit in, they will talk to you and they will talk a lot. And so you kind of, it’s good to know their type because that can help build that relationship and help with the conversation. Type six is a loyalist and these types are, they’re just kind people and they really care about their family and friends, their close relationships and they’re very loyal. And these people…

they will be there for you to the end of time. They will be there for you. But if you betray them, or if you do something that causes them to hurt, they’re done. And when they’re done, they’re done. And they’re okay with that, you know? And so you might see these people as, you know, if we’re going to the movies, like I need to know where the bathrooms are.

We need to have an exit strategy. We need to be prepared for safety and security. We need to know these things. And so they deal with anxiety and worry. Type sevens are the enthusiasts, the adventurers. These are the life of the party. They will never.

plan or set a schedule with you because they don’t want to miss out on the most fun thing you know so they have to be available to see what they feel like going where they where they want to go they have fear of missing out they have FOMO and they just love being happy their fear is being in pain and so

Nick McGowan (12:39.534)
Mm-hmm.

Myrna Scales (12:55.522)
they are not gonna sit in sadness, you know? If they have a problem and you’re like, hey, let’s talk about this, you must be feeling really bad. Like, yeah, but it’s okay, let’s go to the movies, let’s go get some ice cream, you know, it’s all gonna be fine. They don’t want to think about it, they don’t wanna know about it, and so you might see these people.

numb out. And so they’re using outside substances or whatever to keep that happiness and keep them away from pain. Type 8s are the challengers and these people, you know them. I mean…

Nick McGowan (13:20.287)
Mm-hmm.

Myrna Scales (13:34.606)
They’re really good leaders. If they’re healthy, they can be really good leaders and they can be really good to rely on when there’s situations and problems. They can step up, they know what to do. But when they’re not healthy, they can be very controlling. They can be tyrant-like and dictator-like.

They want to control everything and, you know, it’s my way or the highway. Like, you wouldn’t be in this problem if you did what I did. Why don’t you just do what I do? Type of deal. And they’re not afraid of drama and confrontation. They actually feel better when they let out their anger. They’re okay with that. And then you have the type 9 and that’s me. I’m the peacemaker. And, um…

These kind of people just love to chill and relax and I love all things cozy. Fall is my favorite season. I have candles and blankets and I just love making everyone feel welcome and calm. And I don’t like confrontation. I don’t like drama. I want to keep my peace of mind at all times. And, you know, when we’re unhealthy,

go to passive aggressiveness. That’s kind of how we show our anger and like, I’m fine and slamming the counter and yeah I haven’t talked to you in one week but I’m okay I just didn’t have anything to say. But yeah so those are all the types and different things that they kind of deal with.

Nick McGowan (14:57.882)
Hmm.

Nick McGowan (15:23.514)
Thank you.

It’s interesting with the amount of people that are in our lives, family members or friends or coworkers, just like how you said somebody gets out of school or college or whatever and they get into a job and they’re like, this is hard. These people are difficult. They’re different than what you were used to, but knowing how these personalities work and what they look for and what they, like what you and I know that people either disintegrate to or integrate to and how they do those.

Myrna Scales (15:43.768)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (15:54.376)
things and what happens when they’re under stress or pressure that can help us be in a better situation to be able to work with them. So I thought about before I invited you onto the show about having somebody who talks about the Enneagram and I’m sure there are going to be others that we’re going to have on to be able to talk through it as well but I feel like this is a major piece of how we can manage our mindsets and how we can control our minds in a sense to be able to understand the rules of the game that somebody else is playing and I

through, at least from my perspective, is as a four, somebody who’s an artist, somebody who just feels all the things. Remember family members before being like, God, why are you so feely? Why do you feel all these things? Why are you so damn emotional? That was coming from my two parents who were both eights, who were trying to control everything, but I didn’t understand. I was like, I don’t know, but why are you being so mean to me? What is the deal? I was married to a six

Nick McGowan (16:54.516)
Now we had different situations, communication and stuff like that, but there were things where I went against her rules and went against the security and stability, but I didn’t understand the Enneagram types and understanding now of I’m a four with a three wing and she’s a six with probably a five.

But understanding that disconnect was there, that helps me now understand how I have a different relationship with my partner. My partner now is a four or five. So we get along very well. And there’s some times where I’m like, I wanna go look at this thing, check this thing out. She’s like, I’m gonna do a bunch of research on this thing. I’m like, cool, you let me know. Because that’s how the five works within that. But being able to understand how that works and how other people, how we interact with them, either in a career or on a team

Myrna Scales (17:37.166)
Hehehe

Yeah.

Nick McGowan (17:49.244)
doing, we really need to be able to understand that. So when you understood for yourself that you’re a nine with a one-wing, can you explain to people how you went through that and what that actually means for you so as they can find it on them on their own without, you know, obviously people need to go through a test and they need to really work through it. There are a number of books that you and I I’m sure would both suggest that you read through, but what was your path of figuring out that you’re a nine-one and how did you then

Myrna Scales (18:13.376)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (18:19.164)
differently and have different conversations with them.

Myrna Scales (18:22.186)
Yes, really great questions. So a little bit about my story. I had my youngest son in 2018, and he was three months old. And that one day, I was playing with him and found a lump on his belly. And we brought him to the doctor, and they said, oh, it’s a mass. You need to go to the hospital right now to get further tests to see what else that they find. And so he had multiple tests, CAT scans, blood work. And later to find out, he had a tumor, a kidney tumor. And the tumor was so big, it covered that left kidney. And

So a few days later, he had major abdominal surgery to remove the tumor, remove his left kidney. And then a few days after that, he started radiation, seven rounds of radiation and seven months of chemotherapy. And to tell you that I was an emotional wreck is not even close to what it was. Cause I always thought that, you know,

I prayed that my kids were gonna be healthy, and my oldest was healthy, and we did everything great, and we were great parents, and he was sleeping through the night, and we were gonna do the same things for a second. And everything that we planned and expected was not what came about. And you know how me being a type nine, I wanted peace, I wanted peace of mind, and it was just chaos, and the unknown,

Nick McGowan (20:08.322)
Mm-hmm.

Myrna Scales (20:11.288)
It really brought me to my knees. And so one day I was on Instagram, I was looking through and I found the Enneagram, a post on the Enneagram and I was like, what is this? And I was like, oh, the post looks cute and stuff cause they have a lot of aesthetic post about the Enneagram. So I was like, let me try it and see. And I’ve taken other personality tests before and

You know, I got my results and I was reading through it and I just started to cry. I just started to bawl. And I was like, wow, this makes sense.

I was, you know, like I’m a people pleaser. I never like stand up for myself because I don’t want anyone to get upset at me. And you know, people have told me my whole life, you’re such a pushover, you’re the nice girl. And people always telling me what to do. And I have my own opinions, but I never spoke up because I thought I didn’t matter. And also I never wanted to step on anyone’s toes.

don’t. And so once I started learning about the type 9 and my wing 1, I was hooked. And I was like, okay, how can I grow using this tool? And I started reading everything about it. I started reading. And the one thing that I’ve learned about my type and growth is that not all confrontation is bad. And so

that to me really rung true because I’m a mom, I’m a wife, my son’s going through chemo, I’m dealing with different doctors. Like, I couldn’t just be.

Myrna Scales (22:03.926)
the type nine people pleaser, you know, never speaking up. Like I had to step up and be like, okay, what’s this test for? What is this? Why are we doing this? I had to step out. And just learning about myself in that time helped me be able to be the mom that I needed to be for my son. And not only that, but like when we’re talking about relationships, like,

me and my husband, we grieved differently during that time. He would go running and he would cry or do whatever, listen to music, and then he would be fine because he got that frustration out. But me, I didn’t really have that outlet and it’s hard for nines to express anger and other feelings. And so I’m like, we need to talk more about this and things. And he’s like, I don’t really want to talk

Myrna Scales (23:01.964)
We need to do more and so Learning about his type and that you know, he’s a type one. He’s a reformer. He’s a perfectionist and the way that he deals with trauma and the way that he processes things are totally different from me and so I understood at the time like Okay, like he’s not doing those things to annoy me. This is how he

is and this is how he does things. And so it really helps our relationship during that really difficult time to be able to be compassionate to each other. And so you know the Enneagram helps with all kinds of different situations but just the self-awareness I think is the most important because when you’re able to look in to yourself and see how you

Nick McGowan (23:54.895)
cute.

Myrna Scales (23:56.314)
are to other people and things that you need to work on. I mean, everything just naturally starts to unfold and other people start to see the change in you and they’re like, oh, what are you doing? My husband wanted to learn about his type, you know? And it was just really beautiful to see.

Nick McGowan (24:22.422)
Plus with understanding that your partner be it a romantic partner like your husband or wife or somebody that you’re partnered with that work or On a team or whatever to understand how that person deals with whatever they’re dealing with

It can be really easy if you don’t understand it, for you especially to be like, well why won’t you talk about this more? Like I need to talk about this more. And that in some ways is a you problem, maybe a bad way to put that, but it’s an individual thing where we’re just like, but I need this and I need this and why don’t you get that? But if you don’t understand the other person is different, like you guys are, yes you’re different, but on the Enneagram you’re also very close.

Myrna Scales (24:48.674)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (25:05.762)
Like the reason why you have a one wing is because it’s right there next to it. It’s part of that wing. So there are some similarities within that, but I can almost guarantee that there are tons of couples that are out there that are like, oh, my husband doesn’t get this or my wife doesn’t get that or whatever because they don’t understand how the other person actually processes things and how they work through it. And it’s just so much easier just to be pissed or upset.

Myrna Scales (25:06.014)
Yes.

Myrna Scales (25:10.548)
Yeah.

Myrna Scales (25:26.07)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (25:31.042)
We’re like, why don’t you get me or what have you? And I know I’ve done that stuff as a four where I’m like, why don’t you get me? Why don’t you understand? And the eights of my life are like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Like, why don’t you just do these things like I told you to and this is how it works. But it’s so easy to just get frustrated on either side. So understanding what the other person is, I think it’s a crucial step for us to be able to actually have that self-awareness, but then to go, okay, the person I’m talking to,

Myrna Scales (25:36.695)
Hahaha

Myrna Scales (25:41.454)
I’m gonna go get some water.

Myrna Scales (25:46.114)
Yep.

Nick McGowan (26:01.45)
even just at a top level, is a four or a six or a seven or whatever they are. And then being able to understand what that looks like from there. You did a great job of walking through what one to nine looks like and what some of those components are. But I really want people to be able to think about themselves, who they are, and then think about the people that are close to them. Like when I went through the Enneagram book,

the original book and I was reading through it. I was reading through the history of it, reading through how it all makes sense and how it ties everything together and it’s not just a personality test. It ties in your spirituality, ties in physical, a whole bunch of things. But understanding that I am how I am is just kind of a top level of me. There are the wings that go along with it that kind of drop down to that subtopic, but we can also use different pieces of it. I’ve heard different people that

we’ll really talk about the Enneagram where it’s like, if you understand what all the different pieces are, you can still be a chameleon in different ways to be able to do those things. Like I can jump into a six in a sense to say, I really need to make sure that we’re secure and we have the stability and that we’re following the rules of this thing. It’s interesting to do that from a four who just wants to flow and freely move about, but I can still make sure we have our shit together if we need to. But it takes understanding how to be able to do that. So,

what sort of suggestions do you give the people that you work with when they’re like, okay, I need to figure out who I am, but I still have my spouse, my family, the people I work with. What are the steps that you walk people through for that? Then basically just walk the audience through that because that’s who I want to be able to take this and go, all right, I now know who I am, or at least an idea of it. And I need to know who the main people are around me so I can have better conversations and understand.

The eight isn’t being an asshole to the four. The four is just really feeling all the things. And the eight’s like, I don’t understand why we’re still talking about this. If you do these things, like I said, you’d be good. But that’s just how we operate. So how do you walk people through that?

Myrna Scales (27:55.967)
Yeah.

Myrna Scales (28:01.442)
Yeah.

Myrna Scales (28:04.702)
Yeah, so the first thing that I really like to look at…

when I’m talking to someone about this is you’re looking at the motivation. You know, if you read a book about the Enneagram, you’re going to see that there’s the motivation, the basic fear, the basic desire. And so answering these questions can help you find your type. And if you’re not wanting to take a long, you know, test, you can find your type by looking at those things. You know, if you’re really, if you really know yourself.

And so the motivation, you know, for me, I’m motivated by keeping the peace, my peace of mind. And my fear is confrontation and like losing relationships through those confrontations. And so another part of it, when I’m walking my clients through it is that I look at where we go when we’re in stress.

and I look at where we go when we’re in growth.

And this is a really great roadmap for people to be able to navigate certain situations. And so for me, I’ll just take me as an example, I, when I’m stressed, I go to a type, an unhealthy type six. And so I am just filled with anxiety. Everything is the worst case scenario. I’m researching and trying to be prepared for every outcome.

Nick McGowan (29:28.366)
I’m gonna go.

Myrna Scales (29:40.682)
Like when my son got his diagnosis, I was nonstop on the computer. Like what is the outcome? What is this? What is the port? And my husband was like, you need to stop. But I was in my unhealthy stage. And so if you’re a person that’s going through trauma or stress, you can navigate that and be like, oh man, anxiety is starting to creep up

I’m trying to prepare everything or whatever, let me see what I can do to get back to health. And so for me as a type 9, I go to a healthy type 3 when I’m thriving and when I’m feeling really good. And that is kind of weird for a type 9 because they’re not very like voiceful or like…

Yes, they could be confident, but not like a three. And so it’s interesting because I feel like the more work that I do, I am growing into that healthy type three. Like I was able to speak at TEDx. I am able to get certified to be an Enneagram coach. And like I’m more confident and I’m not as scared of confrontation

when you’re dealing with all kinds of people, but I’m not scared anymore to speak up. And so I can look at these things and be like, oh, okay, this is what I need to do if I’m in stress, this is where I need to go, or this is what I have to change to like, you know, drive myself towards that goal. And another thing is we look at the wings.

And so those are the two numbers that are right next to your chord number, your chord type. And so for me, that’s the type 9, and then there’s the wing 1, and then there’s the wing 8. And…

Myrna Scales (31:46.374)
I’m a nine wing one for sure. So I do have that little perfectionism in me. I wanna do things right. And so there’s a lot of times that I do understand my husband. I understand where he’s coming from a lot of times. But then my wing eight, I don’t think I hardly ever used it before. It was just over here, just hanging out, you know? But now…

I have certain situations where I can bring my aid out. And like, that’s me being a mama bear, you know? Or like, if my friends need me, I’m gonna step up. And like, you can use your wings, like whenever you need them, you know? And you can start looking at other people and being like, wow, like I can understand them way better because we are all so complex.

Nick McGowan (32:24.15)
Hehehe

Myrna Scales (32:41.402)
And I just have compassion and empathy for you because I know that everyone struggles with their own thing and everyone’s so different. And so that’s how I kind of guide people through the process.

Nick McGowan (32:56.89)
That’s a great way to put it, especially the complexities. We are all…

similar in certain ways, but we’re all unique in a lot of different ways. And for us to be able to be self-aware of, all right, this is how I interact with things, this is how I ingest information, this is how I process things, or this is how I handle things poorly, or what have you. And then to be able to understand that outside of you, it takes us, and that’s a big thing that I talk about on the show and that a lot of the guests talks about too, it’s self-awareness. That’s the most important thing. If you’re not self-aware and you have no idea what’s going on, how in the hell

to do anything outside of you, you just can’t. You can’t do anything really productive. Maybe you can, but it’s going to be extremely difficult and it’s based on all just luck at that point because you just kind of randomly close your eyes and shot, you know? Where understanding, at least with the Enneagram, the thing that has really stood out to me is that we can understand how we innately are and how we can err on the different sides with the wings and how those wings may be different.

Myrna Scales (33:42.667)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Nick McGowan (34:01.644)
understanding how we can relate to those other people that are of those sort of ways. Where again, if somebody is a complete opposite from you or they look at things differently, it can be really easy to just like bash heads with them because you don’t understand what they are feeling because you don’t really understand what you’re feeling. So understanding this from this perspective and having that self-discipline even to just say, all right well I need to

Myrna Scales (34:21.311)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (34:31.664)
thing for us to be able to do. So in your situation, because one of the big things I like to be able to talk about is really how did you manage your mindset through a really difficult situation. And I often will bring up trauma. Not everybody gets into the crazy, crazy friggin trauma that happened when they were little kids or if they were molested or they watched somebody die or anything really super traumatic. Some people will, but we all have traumas that

Nick McGowan (35:01.604)
direction because we look at our core wound, we look at how that trauma has impacted us and we go, all right well this is a way for me to be safe or be seen or what have you. So when you went through that with your son and then you figured out, all right you’re a nine with a one wing and you and your husband look at things differently, that could have been one of those things that really destroyed your marriage and could have destroyed you as well where you could have just disintegrated the wrong way, you could have just gone

Myrna Scales (35:31.277)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (35:31.824)
completely downhill from there but you started to take that step of how do I understand myself better than how do I understand my husband and how do I handle this so with all of that how did you actually handle what was going on in your mind and handling your day-to-day without really crumbling from it?

Myrna Scales (35:52.35)
Yeah, you are so right. I’ve heard of so many couples and situations where they went through something like this and they just did not make it. And it’s so sad, you know, and it’s all about understanding where that other person is coming from. But like you said, like you have to know yourself, you have to do the work, you know, and grow in yourself to be able to…

love others, you know? I think a really big thing for me, because honestly, before I became a certified Enneagram coach, I found an Enneagram coach and I was a client first.

I learned more about it and I learned more about myself. And one thing that she asked me, she was just like point blank. And you know for type 9s we really have a hard time knowing what we want because we’re merging with other people and there’s so much noise and sometimes we just numb out and try not to think about what’s actually going on. But she was like, what do you need to…

you know, stop the anxiety, stop the stress and all this stuff. And at the time, my youngest son had just finished chemo. My oldest son was a toddler and you know how busy they are. And then Covid was happening. And so they both were in the house with me with no help. And I was just a hot mess, a hot mess. And the one thing.

that just popped up in my head is like, I need help. I need to ask for help. And she was like, okay, do it. And I was like, what do you mean? It’s that easy? Like, well, what do I do? Yeah, what do I do? And, you know, for any moms that are listening, I don’t know if you feel this way, but it’s like your stay at home mom,

Nick McGowan (37:57.262)
Is that how that works?

Myrna Scales (38:10.674)
and your job is to take care of the kids, take care of the household. And so asking for help, you’re like.

But this is what I’m supposed to be doing. I’m supposed to be doing it all. I’m staying at home for this. Why, I can’t go and ask for help. And then you feel guilty. And I come from a Haitian background and my mom is a type eight and she’s Haitian. And so in different cultures, they’re like, what do you mean ask for help? Why do you need a nanny? You’re home all day. And so I started thinking to myself, can I really do this? Can I really?

Ask for help? Okay. And so I spoke to my husband and my husband is so supportive. He’s like, yeah, if this is gonna make you happy and it’s gonna help you, let’s do it. And in my head I’m like, why didn’t I never say anything before, you know? And so we found someone

you know, and she became a nanny. And it’s not like she came every day. She came two or three times a week. She played with the boys. She read with them. I was able to go for walks by myself. I was able to do laundry and listen to podcasts and not have people grabbing me and asking me for stuff. It changed my life. Just that one thing, speaking up, giving my opinion.

because my opinion matters, and that one thing changed my life for the positive, it changed my family’s life for the positive, because I was a better mom, I was more patient, I was more happy because I had some me time during a crazy back to back, just crazy, crazy stuff, you know? So, you gotta figure out what it is that you’re needing help with.

Myrna Scales (40:09.29)
You know, for me, I needed like actual help, someone to come and help me. For you, it might be something else. So you really need to take that time to reflect and see what it is that you need that can help you get to that next level.

Nick McGowan (40:49.37)
It’s interesting that you brought up the sort of the social norm in certain ways of not being able to ask for help and the shame that kind of goes along with that in certain ways of like, well, I shouldn’t ask for help. I shouldn’t do this. I shouldn’t do that. And then being able to be open about it and asking for help and actually doing things that are.

going to help the person who needs to help the other people and being able to work through that stuff. I think there’s a lot to that and that must have been a hectic time for you to be able to do it, but what a realization to be able to go, oh, yeah, I can ask for help.

Myrna Scales (41:19.351)
Yeah.

Nick McGowan (41:31.474)
And I think there’s a different piece that goes into that. I often think of the systems that we’ve been raised in, how we look at life, privileges that we have in different ways or lack thereof in different ways, and how sometimes it can be as simple as just opening up and talking about something or like, I need to get some help and getting past that, well, I have trauma because my mom didn’t have help or this person didn’t have help or in our culture, we don’t really look at it.

like that or whatever those are just bullshit shoulds like things should look some way that’s horseshit it just shouldn’t ever look any sort of way it’s going to look the way that it needs to look so for you to be able to step into that and have that understanding and then again the realization of like why didn’t I just ask this before it was that easy

Not everything’s gonna be that easy, obviously, but there are ways that you can kinda go through that and figure that stuff out. And what a beautiful way to be able to figure that out. Not in what had happened with your son, but how you’d actually approach that, what you had done with that. Now, how is your son? Is your son okay? Okay.

Myrna Scales (42:23.434)
Yeah.

Myrna Scales (42:40.826)
Oh yeah, he is so good. He’s five years old now and he just started kindergarten and he’s loving it and he’s just doing amazing. So we’re really, really grateful and blessed.

Nick McGowan (42:56.194)
That’s awesome. I should have asked that earlier, but things kind of went a little bit of a different path. And I know that I don’t know what it’s like to have kids and to feel any of that.

Myrna Scales (42:58.242)
Thank you.

Nick McGowan (43:10.418)
I know what that’s like to have a family member that has gone through something like that. My brother had cancer back in I think 2016 or 17 and I remember it, I was like 3000 miles away from him and it basically crushed me. And that was one of the things that just like added on to the rest of the craziness that I had going on in my life. But I didn’t understand how to really properly work within myself or with my wife at the time or my business partners and all these other things that were going on.

It’s… I kind of kick myself in the ass at times where I’m like, man, if I would have known this stuff before, I could have done things differently. But then again, that’s where this podcast comes into play. That’s why I want this episode to be out there to be able to speak to people where they can go, I can learn it right now, or I can at least start to work on that path to understand this is what’s important to me. So along those lines, what’s that one piece of advice you’d give to somebody on their path towards self-mastery?

Myrna Scales (44:08.894)
The one piece of advice I would give is to never stop learning about yourself. You know, even though like I found the Enneagram, there’s always something else that I’m learning and there’s always things that I’m learning about my husband and my kids and just

Always think about it in a way where it’s like, what can I do? What can I do? What can I work on to make this relationship better? What can I do to make our communication better? What can I do to be a better mom? And when you ask yourself those questions every day, you’re going to find the answers. But you have to be willing to come in front of the mirror and really look at yourself.

because I think a lot of people, you know, they’re scared. They’re scared to look in the mirror. And you know, it can be like, oh man, yeah, I do that thing, but I don’t wanna talk about it. It’s fine. But you really need to take a good look and whatever it is, you know, you can change it.

and you can rebuild relationships and you can, you know, make work exciting again and not dreading it every day. You can do all of those things by working on yourself and learning and learning and growing and growing.

Nick McGowan (45:45.262)
What a great way to put that. And I appreciate you being on, for being open and sharing everything. And also the path that you’ve gone through and how you’ve not only went through it all, you’re better from it. And look at what you’re doing now. You’re showing other people how to go about it. And you and I both know the power of, the more that you can understand about yourself, the more that you can understand about the people that are around you, the better we can communicate, the better we can understand, we can empathize, and we can just have a better overall chance

of living a better life just by understanding those sort of things and then taking action and doing something with it. So Myrna, before I let you go, where can people find you and where can they connect with you?

Myrna Scales (46:26.838)
Yes, you can find me on my website, www.9wing1.com. It’s my type, so 9wing1.com. And I have a freebie on there that I just created. And it’s a short Find Your Enneagram Number Guide. And you’re just going to answer four simple questions and then have a reflection.

and find your type. And I think that it’s a really great place to start if you’re wanting to find your Enneagram number. Some people are super busy. I know I’m a super busy mom. And when there’s a test to take and it’s like, you know, intense questions that you have to be honest with, like those long tests take time. And so if you’re looking for something that’s easier, quicker, and afterwards you want a free consultation with me, you know, we can do that.

Nick McGowan (47:18.552)
Mm-hmm.

Myrna Scales (47:26.772)
So yeah, you can find me on there. My email is on there and everything.

Nick McGowan (47:33.294)
Perfect. And I’ll have a lot of that in the show notes as well. Mernie, I appreciate your time. Again, thank you so much for being on the show today.

Myrna Scales (47:40.77)
Thank you so much, Nick.