In this episode of the Undetermined States of America podcast, I’m joined by Leonora Camner, Executive Director of Sortition USA (formerly Democracy Without Elections). Leonora was one of the very first people who pulled me into the world of sortition, citizens’ assemblies, and deliberative democracy and I'm very grateful to her for all the connections I've made through introductions she initiated.

In this episode, we start with Leonora’s path from housing organizing in Los Angeles to a deep disillusionment with how “community input” and electoral incentives can turn public life into a toxic tug-of-war—where shouting, fundraising, and political cover often matter more than facts, expertise, or the common good. From there, Leonora explains the “ray of light” moment: discovering lottery-based democracy as a real, serious alternative, and why randomness can actually reduce manipulation and restore legitimacy.

We also get into strategy of making sortition a movement: local chapters, model assemblies, and what it could look like to build an alternative civic culture people can genuinely identify with; something that doesn’t just critique the current system, but practices a better one. If you’ve felt like our politics is broken at the level of incentives and the core way in which our system is structured, I think this interview will resonate.This interview was recorded back in the late summer 2025 and Leonora has already been patient enough to forgive me for the long delay (a delay so long that the organization has since changed it's name since I interviewed her!). I am also honored to share that I am now serving on the board of Sorition USA! I enjoyed interviewing Leonora very much and I am looking forward to our future conversations and work together.

A few weeks ago, Nick and I had a follow up podcast to our part 1 because it felt like we were only beginning to scratch the service! In this episode, we continue our exploration of sortition systems, focusing on the themes of legitimacy and consent. We discuss the challenges of shifting cultural narratives around democracy, the potential of sortition to offer a more representative and egalitarian form of governance, and the historical and philosophical underpinnings of these ideas. We examine how sortition could transform political legitimacy and citizen engagement, offering a fresh perspective on the future of democracy.

I really enjoyed talking with Nick again and I’m sure this won’t be the last time we have him on the podcast! We experienced some technical issues again unfortunately :< I will be switching to a new podcast recording platform soon to hopefully avoid that in the future!

I have TWO really amazing recordings to share after this one which will come out in the next few weeks: one with Leonora Camner, ED of Democracy Without Elections and the second is a recording of our live event that took place in Manhattan on July 19th! Stay tuned for those ^.^

Chapter/topic list:

Introduction and Recap: Nick and I set the stage for the discussion, recapping previous conversations and introducing the focus on legitimacy and consent.

Cultural Narratives and Democracy: A deep dive into how cultural narratives shape our understanding of democracy and the challenges of changing these narratives.

Legitimacy in Sortition Systems: Exploring the concept of legitimacy in sortition, comparing it to traditional electoral systems.

Consent of the Governed: Discussing the philosophical and practical aspects of consent in governance, particularly in sortition systems.

Historical Context and Sortition: A look at historical examples of sortition and its philosophical roots.

Challenges and Opportunities: Addressing the potential challenges sortition systems face and the opportunities they present for more inclusive governance.

Future of Democracy: Speculating on the future of democracy and the role sortition could play in shaping it.

Closing Thoughts: Nick and I wrap up the discussion with reflections on the conversation and thoughts on future episodes.

Hi Founding Citizens,

*please excuse the audio/video delay in the latter half of the video. I am still working out the kinks of online podcast recording!*

I’m happy to share the 2nd podcast episode of [Undetermined] States of America. In this episode we are joined by Nick Coccoma, founder and executive director of Assemble America. I want to just share that I feel so impressed and aligned with Assemble America. It is one of the most well put-together orgs I have come across in this space and I believe it’s relatively young. I highly encourage you to sign up for their newsletter and get involved with the org if you feel called.

Nick is also one of the most well-read people I’ve had the pleasure of meeting and, because he has a background in teaching, I think does an exceptional job at explaining the history and concepts behind deliberative democracy and the sortition movement. I’m really excited to share that there will be a part two to this episode that we’ll be recording in the coming weeks because there’s just so much ground to cover and Nick has so much knowledge to share on this topic.

I’m also really excited to share that I’ll be hosting Nick and my previous podcast guest, Phil Lindsay, for an in-person event in Manhattan next Saturday, July 19th, at the Francis Kite Club in the East Village. Please join us if you can make it! Please enjoy this episode and keep your eyes out for our second interview soon.

Chapters of this episode:

* Nick's Personal Journey: Nick shares his upbringing in a legal household, his exposure to jury trials, and how these experiences influenced his views on democracy and governance.

* Democracy and Citizens' Assemblies: Explore the concept of citizens' assemblies, their historical roots, and how they can address current democratic challenges by involving everyday people in decision-making.

* Historical Context of Democracy: Nick provides a historical overview of democracy, discussing ancient Athens, the American founding, and the evolution of democratic and republican ideas.

* Challenges and Opportunities in Modern Democracy: We touch on the current state of democracy in the U.S., the influence of money and special interests, and the potential for citizens' assemblies to revitalize democratic processes.

* Assemble America's Goals and Strategies: Nick outlines the goals of Assemble America, including establishing permanent citizens' assemblies at the state level and advocating for a constitutional convention led by citizens.

* The Role of Deliberative Democracy: We explore how deliberative democracy can lead to more informed and inclusive decision-making, contrasting it with the limitations of electoral democracy.

Until next time!

Colin

Steward of [U]SA

Hello Founding Citizens!

I’m honored to finally be uploading the very first official [U]SA podcast with my very first guest: Phil Lindsay, Director of the Democracy Innovation Hub via the Hannah Arendt Center at Bard College!

I met Phil early in the year after being connected to him through Leonora Camner, Executive Director of Democracy Without Elections. We met up at a board game cafe in Brooklyn where we both live and talked about our visions for deliberative democracy in the US.

In this podcast, we primarily discuss Phil’s work with ‘Citizens Assemblies’ and explore what deliberative democracy is and how it all relates to the vision behind Undetermined States of America.

This was a super fun interview and I know it’s not our last with Phil.

Enjoy and please leave comments! And if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe at www.undetermined.us!

A video intro to [Undetermined] States of America