In this episode, David J. Staley reads his latest CHELIP: University Design column, “Interestingness,” inspired by Kenneth O. Stanley and Joel Lehman’s Why Greatness Cannot Be Planned: The Myth of the Objective.

What if the pursuit of clearly defined objectives is actually the enemy of breakthrough innovation?

Drawing on the intellectual journey of urban theorist Jane Jacobs, insights from computer science, and examples from the history of invention, Staley challenges one of higher education’s most sacred assumptions: that learning must always be guided by predetermined goals and measurable outcomes.

Instead, he explores a radical idea — that interestingness, not objectives, may be the true engine of discovery.

In This Episode

• Why Jane Jacobs’ “directionless” intellectual wandering shaped one of the most influential urban thinkers of the 20th century

• How experiments in artificial intelligence reveal the limits of goal-driven design

• The paradox of innovation: why the stepping stones to major breakthroughs rarely resemble the final outcome

• The hidden cost of learning objectives and overly structured curricula

• Why students who feel “undecided” may actually be operating from a deeper intellectual instinct

• The case for reimagining Liberal Studies as a major in “interestingness”

Key Ideas

1. Greatness Cannot Be Planned
Many transformative discoveries — from microwave ovens to airplanes to early computers — emerged not from direct goal pursuit, but from exploratory work aimed at entirely different problems.

2. The Danger of Objective Thinking
Ambitious goals can create tunnel vision. When we fixate on outcomes, we may overlook the very stepping stones that would lead us there.

3. Interestingness as a Compass
Novelty acts as a detector of possibility. Interesting ideas open new pathways — even when their ultimate purpose is unclear.

4. Are Universities Designed for Discovery?
With tightly defined learning objectives and structured degree pathways, are we unintentionally suppressing intellectual exploration?

5. Not Having a Plan Can Be a Very Good Plan
For students drawn to curiosity rather than credentials, exploration may not be aimless — it may be the most innovative strategy of all.

About David J. Staley

David J. Staley is an Associate Professor in the Departments of History, Design, and Educational Studies at The Ohio State University and serves as an Honorary Faculty Fellow in Innovation with CHELIP. His research explores digital history, historical methodology, and the intersection of technology, scholarship, and the future of higher education. A prolific author and curator of digital and physical exhibits, Dr. Staley brings a deep interdisciplinary perspective to conversations about innovation and institutional transformation.

A Question for Listeners

Are our institutions designed to produce graduates with objectives — or graduates with curiosity?

What might change if we structured higher education around interesting questions instead of predetermined outcomes?