Unstoppable Mindset

By Michael HingsonSociety & Culture Education Self-Improvement Relationships Philosophy

Unstoppable Mindset episodes

November 10, 2021 Episode 7 – Meet accessiBe Partner Success Manager, Rafi Glantz; a Visionary, an Internet Access Thought Leader and a Man on a Mission
Rafi Glantz is the Partner Success Manager for accessiBe. As Mike Hingson discusses near the beginning of this episode one of the advantages of being a podcast host while working for a company is that it is easy to find talent and interesting guests close at hand. Rafi is one of those gems listeners now get to meet. He was born in the United States, but moved to Israel when he was 18. Listen to his interesting story and learn how he became an Israeli Citizen, joined the military and then worked for companies in his newly adopted company. Rafi will take us on a journey of discovery including what brought him to accessiBe and all his adventures since joining the company.
Some directories do not show full show notes. For the complete transcription please visit https://michaelhingson.com/podcast
About the Host:
Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.
Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.
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Transcription Notes
Michael Hingson 00:00
Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast we're inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.

Michael Hingson 01:21
Hi, and welcome back to another episode of Unstoppable Mindset, the podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Unexpected. It's always kind of fun. Today, I want to introduce you to Refael Glantz, we call him Rafi. We call him other things, but Rafi is what will you like that? We will call you Rafi today, and Rafi is the partner Success Manager at excessive B, you know, and he is the second person from accessibility that that we have talked with on this podcast. And why? Well, yes, it has some to do with accessibility. But even more important than that, what I find interesting is that when I have the opportunity to work for an with a company that has a lot of very talented people, it's great to be able to interview everyone and talk about their talents, without having to go far afield to as a result be able to interview lots of people with lots of interesting stories. So we don't have to go search for guests too far. Because we could just look inside in our case excessively. And it isn't always about accessibility. But by the same token, sometimes it is and sometimes excessively comes up in the conversations as I'm sure it will today. But Rafi, welcome to unstoppable mindset.

Rafi Glantz 02:40
Thanks so much for having me. I'm glad to be here.

Michael Hingson 02:43
So Rafi, you I have to say that you don't really sound like you were born in Israel.

Rafi Glantz 02:50
I was. No, I'm from Detroit originally.

Michael Hingson 02:54
Yeah, there you are see? So, um, so you are from Detroit? And when did you when did you move to Israel and what what brought you to Israel.

Rafi Glantz 03:05
That's a kind of a funny story. So it's funny, it's good that you bring that up. When I was 18, or 17, really, I was finishing high school. And we're living in Philly at the time with my family. I went to university up in Bel Air in California at American Jewish University, which no longer has undergrads, which might tell you a little bit about why I ended up dropping out. And when I turned 18, I realized, okay, I can join the military now, which is really what I wanted to do. And I ended up moving to Israel getting my citizenship here. And I did about almost three years in the military here. And then when I got out, I realized that it made more sense for me to find a job in the high tech world here, then go back to the states and pursue a degree that to be totally honest, I didn't have too much interest in anymore. What kind of a degree did you want to get? Well, I went for pre med, and what they called bioethics. And I was actually a combat medic in the Army. And so I had some interaction with that stuff. But the interaction that I had, I guess helped me realize that that was not the path that was gonna, at least I thought at the time, make me really happy.

Michael Hingson 04:21
So you, you switched, how, how difficult was it to become a citizen in Israel? I asked that because, you know, there are lots of discussions about immigration and citizenship and so on here and it'd be interesting to hear a little bit about what it's like when you when you did it over there.

Rafi Glantz 04:39
For sure. So luckily for me, it's very easy for me to prove that I'm Jewish, because my dad is a cantor and now a rabbi. So he's got a very strong body of proof to show that I am in fact Jewish and Israel has a law called the right of return. So if you are Jewish and can show it that You're essentially guaranteed citizenship here. And they have a very much streamlined process. So I had my new identity documents and everything the same day I landed. Wow. Yes is much smoother than Much, much smoother than our southern border currently.

Michael Hingson 05:15
Yes. Makes it a real challenge. Well, so I'm real nosy. How old are you now?

Rafi Glantz 05:23
Oh, I'm actually just turned 28. About two weeks ago,

Michael Hingson 05:26
congrats. excited me as an interesting company. The founders were under 30, when they formed accessibly, they were part of the 30, under 30, for Forbes in 2019. And I learned that sure Heckerling, the founder, the CEO of excessive he will be turning, I think he said 32 in January. And it's interesting, it's lots of young people, which is great. And not too many of us who have been around the industry for a long period of time. But but there are advantages and disadvantages, I suppose as long as the tribal knowledge can be passed on from people who've been there, but it's really cool to be with a company, where there's a lot of vision, and a lot of enthusiasm for, for what we're doing.

Rafi Glantz 06:16
Absolutely, it's really exciting for me as well, because to come from, you know, a world where in the United States, especially where we're really taught to defer to experience and age, and that, you know, somebody who is older and more experienced in an industry definitely knows better than you. And, you know, you shouldn't necessarily go against that grain. That's very much not the culture here. And so while of course, a lot of our startups don't succeed and don't achieve the level of success that we certainly have. It's really, really inspiring to see guys who are not that much older than me. build such a behemoth, you know, and don't you wish you'd had the idea first, oh, my God so much. But unfortunately, and I'll tell you the truth, a lot of people in sales calls and stuff like that, they'll say something like, wow, this is really impressive. How did you build it? And I said, Well, to be honest, I had absolutely nothing to do with it. But I will take all the credit you're willing to give me sir, absolutely.

Michael Hingson 07:15
Makes makes perfect sense. You know, the, the issue is that it is still a team. And I think even in the US, though I'm not seeing as much as you might think of deferring to people with a lot of experience, we we tend to, I think as a as a country look down, especially the younger people look down at a lot of older people, there's a lot of age discrimination that goes on here. And it gets pretty, pretty vigorous sometimes, which is unfortunate.

Rafi Glantz 07:48
I actually, I never want I haven't lived in the States for about 10 years. So I'm a little out of date there. But I also grew up a lot of the time in a synagogue surrounded by I guess a little bit of a different approaches, right. And I went to a religious school for a lot of my early childhood. And so that was like really drilled into me that you don't argue with the rabbi's on certain things.

Michael Hingson 08:11
So while you lived in Philadelphia, did you go look at the stairs and see if you saw rocky running up and down the stairs or hearing meal? Yo, Adrian Are any of those things?

Rafi Glantz 08:20
Just I will admit that I have yo yo words real way, many times inside the museum of art as well, which let me tell you the security guards are not fans. They've heard it before and they don't want to hear it again.

Michael Hingson 08:33
Yeah, I can imagine. I can imagine they've heard it way too many times. And not too many people probably run up and down the stairs either.

Rafi Glantz 08:44
Not anymore. Maybe they used to but right now, not not too many. I've done it a couple of times. But there there are more stairs than you would think.

Michael Hingson 08:55
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and then there are those silly people who run up and down the stairs of the Empire State Building. I'm just as confused about those people as well. So it's okay.

Rafi Glantz 09:10
Yeah, listen, I'm confused about people who run marathons. If somebody tells me they ran a marathon, I said, who chased you? Like yeah, exactly what I don't understand what what was the reason? But, you know, teach there. If that's what gets here, you know, gets you up in the morning then great.

Michael Hingson 09:26
Yeah. Well, it's the same thing as football. You don't want to play this game where everybody just beats up on you. That's fine.

Rafi Glantz 09:33
Exactly. You know, there's a great SNL sketch. I love the vintage SNL sketches. And yes, the more recent ones like they're kind of hit or miss for me, but they had a very good one with Alex Rodriguez. And Charles Barkley and then they had Kenan Thompson playing a football player. And you know the baseball play rod and and Barkley are talking about wow, you know, I played for 10 years. I played for 20 and my knees or shot or this is hurting. And the football player says, I played for 10 games, and my brain doesn't work. Which we don't want to make light of CTE but it is a very serious issue that not enough people address. So I'm at least glad it's being discussed now.

Michael Hingson 10:17
Yeah. Well, and and we do need to look at more of those things. But still people like to bang their heads together. So it's, it's okay. It's a news event for me. And that's okay.

Rafi Glantz 10:31
I think it's better than rugby. At least they wear helmets. Yeah,

Michael Hingson 10:34
at least. I was in New Zealand in 2003. We were there for about two weeks. And it was during a lot of the rugby playoffs. There are two things that went on in in New Zealand at the time. One was rugby playoffs, and they certainly are very, very loud and opinionated about rugby in teams. But even more so New Zealand had just lost the America's Cup. And they were yelling, why is it that the government doesn't take over paying for our ship our yacht so that we can win? Because Oh, it was just vigorous and horrible.

Rafi Glantz 11:16
I'm glad they've got their priorities in order. Yeah, we

Michael Hingson 11:18
certainly do believe that sports are parameters and Okay, anyway. So, so tell me, you, you moved to Israel in 2018, and enjoyed the military and worked in as a medic. And so you must have lots of interesting stories. Did you ever get to see much in the way of combat? Or were you close to it or any kind of experiences around that that you want to tell?

Rafi Glantz 11:43
I saw enough. So I actually joined the military in 2011. Or actually, sorry, 2012, because it was November 18 was November 22, something like that. 2012. And then I was in there for almost three years. And for most of my service, it was honestly very boring. Most people who do military stuff will tell you it's mostly hurry up and wait. Yeah, I have a lot of very funny stories that are not appropriate. But I can tell you that in 2014, we ended up having what some people call a war, some people call an operation in Gaza. And I had the misfortune to be involved in some capacity. And I learned that that is not a career path for me that I would much rather work in high tech. And I think one funny tidbit that I will share that I think will tell a lot of people listening just one thing about our culture is that Israel is a very, very small country. So we have what's called staging areas for the military, basically, where, you know, you park all the vehicles and leave all the soldiers in a relatively protected area, so that they can be sent to a new area as needed. Now, the public knew aware a lot of these staging areas work because it's not secret. And a lot of the soldiers you know, they're 1819 20 they're gonna call their parents and say like, Hey, here I am, everything's okay. Don't worry about me. I could not tell you how many random citizens of this country showed up to staging areas all over the place, with food, blankets, coffee cigarettes, for people who smoke everything you can imagine, over the course of a two week war, I gained about 10 pounds. I think this is maybe the only military operation in history, where the majority of the soldiers actually gained weight.

Michael Hingson 13:39
But it is nice to see that the military folks are are supported. And I understand that's what's going on. You mentioned it and I'm not sure that a lot of people really understand how large is Israel.

Rafi Glantz 13:51
It's pretty small. It's about the size of New Jersey a little bit smaller. And when you take into account the West Bank and and Gaza, it's even smaller, you know, the distance between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem even though we see it on the news all the time we hear about it, the distance between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem is like 30 miles. It is not a big place. And it's a little bit funny because you'll have experienced this Mike living in California, driving 45 minutes is not a big deal, right? Driving an hour to Costco is relatively normal. Like I'd rather if there's a Costco 40 minutes away, but I'll go in Israel, if you're driving more than 20 minutes, people will look at you like what, how can you do that in the same day? How can you come back? It's so far, because it's just a completely different standard.

Michael Hingson 14:41
It's interesting, I have met people when I lived in New Jersey, we met some people who lived in Springfield, which is no more than 10 or 15 miles outside New York City. And yet, these people who were 40 and 50 years old, never had been to New York City. It really, it is amazing to see some people how confined they, they keep their world, they have never been to New York City, much less going to upstate New York or anything like that they have just been around Elizabeth and Springfield and so on, and had never been to to New York City. It's amazing. If you know, for us, as you point out here in California, we don't think anything about that, we oftentimes will drive three and 400 miles to go from one part of California to another and think, right, not too much of it. Karen and I do a little bit more thinking about it. Today, she's got a little bit of rheumatoid arthritis, so she won't drive as far at one time. But we have, and it's normal to see that. But you know, at the same time, there's a lot of value of being around home, but not going 10 or 15 miles to the to the largest city in the country. One of the one not the largest in the world, but one of the largest in the world. And seeing all that it has to offer is really a strange thought, a strange feeling.

Rafi Glantz 16:09
I couldn't agree more. And you know, what I we have a lot of what we call taboo to my life, which basically means Culture Day on Sunday. So when you're in the army, they'll take you for like a special trip on Sundays to see a historical site or to see the western wall or something like that. There's a lot of kids who live in a country the size of New Jersey who've never seen the wall or the Dome of the Rock or all of those, you know, very holy sites that Jerusalem so famous for in prison.

Michael Hingson 16:38
Yeah. And go figure and and I think it's a great loss not to visit, or at least learn about a lot of those places. I think that the people who don't do that miss so much about the rich culture of wherever they live.

Rafi Glantz 16:54
Definitely. I, like looking back, I would have liked to spend more time, you know, investigating City Hall in Philadelphia, and not just for all the relatively corrupt things that happened. Just kidding. But that'd be fun. It would necessary certainly be nice.

Michael Hingson 17:13
Yeah, it's an interesting and interesting place. And, you know, we got to deal with politics as we deal with it. So I'm still with Mark Twain. I wonder if God had been a man because he was disappointed in the monkeys. But you know, we got to do.

Rafi Glantz 17:31
That's not the most unlikely theory, I've heard to say.

Michael Hingson 17:37
So you, you went to the military, and you came out and did school and so on? And what did you do before you joined accessibility?

Rafi Glantz 17:47
Well, before I joined accessiBe, I realized that in the Israeli tech scene, you know, a person who speaks English, like I do, and has a relatively acceptable phone manner, can find employment in the high tech space. So I started working in the financial technology industry, mostly just, you know, working in the crypto field, and I went in whatever I do, my philosophy is that, you know, you should dive into it as deep as you can, and learn everything that you can about it. Because you never know, like, what's going to come in handy and how much information you'll need. And particularly in the crypto world, it's, it was such a new field at the time I'm talking, you know, 2016 2017, it was such a new field, that there really were no experts. So if you were willing to put in the time and Google things and study, you know, you were as much of an expert as anybody could find. And the problem of course, being that it's expanded so much that nobody could possibly keep up to date on everything that's going on. But that was that was sort of my first foray into the real high tech world.

Michael Hingson 18:57
So what did you do?

Rafi Glantz 18:59
Um, mostly I just did marketing and content. So I tried to connect with the communities that were behind these organizations. And I learned a little bit about how to manage marketing, but mostly it was managing people whether they were working with us on projects or whether they were doing marketing or influencer marketing or anything like that. I mostly learned how to keep my own stuff organized, and keep people on deadlines, which as you can, as you probably already know, is not the easiest thing. It's like

Michael Hingson 19:32
herding cats. Absolutely. Yes.

Rafi Glantz 19:36
So we both have cats, so

Michael Hingson 19:40
I think they weren't themselves out for the morning anyway, at least I hope so. Ours was yelling at us. Certainly Ervin has quite a down I refilled her food bowl so she's a little happier.

Rafi Glantz 19:50
Not There you go. Although I see mine just loves human food every I'm a big I love cooking that's like my Yeah, my stress relief or and every Every time I make anything with chicken, meat, fish, anything, the cat assumes it's for him. He doesn't understand that I'm not cooking for him and I've already given him. So it's, it's, it's a problem. But I always find it adorable to feed a cat pieces of cow meat, because he would never be able to get that in the wild. I can give it to,

Michael Hingson 20:21
well, ours likes her food. Although she will eat chicken. We haven't seen her eat a lot of fish. And we haven't been able to convince her to do that. So that's okay. But she she really likes her own food. But what she really loves is when she's eating, she wants to be petted. So our food dish, her food dishes up on our sink, it's a double sink with a long counter between the two sinks in the bathroom. We have to keep it up there because there are certain dogs who will probably invade the food bowl if we don't. Because he believes everything is for him. It's a laugh, he's a Labrador, but we we put the food up on the counter. But she wants to be petted while she's eating. In fact, she really likes to get rubbed all over and she'll lay down and per while she's eating, getting petted.

Rafi Glantz 21:19
That's one way to do it.

Michael Hingson 21:21
And during the during the night, at least well, I'll only let her do it one time. I told her when she started this, that she gets at one time a night. And that's it. She'll walk me until I get up in the middle of the night and feeder. So frustrating. Yeah. But, you know, animals are fun. And you know what you can't argue with all that they bring us in that we get to bring them. The fact of the matter is that all animals have personalities. And I'm sure that there are people listening to this who say I never let my cat do that. Well, you know. On the other hand, our experience unless there's some catastrophic illness is that our animals tend to live a long time. I had one guy, Doug Holland, who lived over 15 years, typically, guide dogs worked for me for 10 years or so. I've had two that didn't, but both were illness relate well, one was illness related. And one was she just really got fearful of guiding actually was my sixth dog. Marilyn, she only worked about 18 months. And then just this afraid of guiding but there were other issues with her. But even Roselle worked from 2000, I'm sorry, from 1999 to 2007. And she had for the last three years, she guided a condition known as immune mediated thrombocytopenia, which is where the platelets in the blood will be attacked by your immune system. It's something that humans get in dogs get and and eventually got to the point where she couldn't work more, but she lived for four more years. And that was okay. But we love our animals. And when we should they add so much value to us, I wish more people would take the time to really develop relationships with animals.

Rafi Glantz 23:15
Yeah, I think they, like you say they add a lot to your life. And you know, you can get your emotional validation from all kinds of different places. But in my mind, like there's nothing better than a dog because no matter what, as long as you're not abusive, and a lot of times even then that dog is going to love you and support you and be there for you until the day it dies. Yeah,

Michael Hingson 23:37
they may not trust you as well. And that's something that I talk a lot about when I when I travel and speak and talk about what guide dogs do and even the experiences of the World Trade Center. I tell people that dogs do love unconditionally, but they don't trust unconditionally. The difference. However, between dogs and humans, his dogs will generally be open to trust. I had I saw one that wasn't because she had been abused. And it took us months before we got her to trust us. But then when she did, she opened up and became a great friend for us for three years. It was in the latter part of her life. And she still lived to be 15.

Rafi Glantz 24:17
Wow. So my family has had poodles for the longest like full standard poodles and little purse dog. Yeah. And I, you know, on average, I think they're living with nine years, maybe 10. Not not quite that long. So you must you must really take care of these guys.

Michael Hingson 24:35
Yeah, every dog is a little different. We haven't had poodles, but we've had cats that lived a long time and stitch our current cat is now 12. So she'll, she'll be around quite a while yet, especially if we keep making her jump up to get her food. She's got to get around her size. We're not going to lift her up. She's tried to start to pull that one on us few times. We don't do it.

Rafi Glantz 24:59
Well, right because those cats, they'll take advantage of you. They're clever.

Michael Hingson 25:03
You think

Rafi Glantz 25:04
I met mine, he has this thing he loves knocking over glass items, doesn't care what it is if it's full of water, if it's full of juice, whatever, he will knock it right over. And the worst part is, you'll see him doing it. And I'll, I'll go, you know, I'll yell at him. However you yell at him to try and get him to stop doing something. And he will look over at me and knock it over. As he looks at me. Yeah, with no shame. No. No shame at all. Just as though it's like, oh, this is what I'm doing. This is mine. As if I as if he paid for it from IKEA. Right. You know, he doesn't understand now there's glass on the floors. He doesn't understand why I'm picking him up and trying to put him in another room. Yeah, cut his paws open.

Michael Hingson 25:53
Yeah. We haven't gotten to the point of stuffing him in a box and saying you're going to stay here for a couple of weeks, you're grounded. Work. Well, how did you come to accessiBe? How did you discover this company?

Rafi Glantz 26:09
It's actually a very funny story. So I started working at a company called Celsius network, which is in the crypto space. And people that are great, like I don't, I don't have anything negative to say about them, it just didn't really work out. And I was looking for a new role. I had some friends who worked in marketing, and they had a great marketing company called market across an inbound junction. So I spoke to them had an interview, they turned out not to be interested. And a week later, I haven't interviewed accessiBe, and I ended up getting hired. And I thought, you know, these are two totally unrelated things. Turns out market across was an early investor in excessively. So it's sort of close the loop there. And it's, I've been here for almost two and a half years now. And it has been a very, very crazy ride. You know, when I when I joined excessively, I think we had a little bit under 4000 Total customers period. And we were we just started selling in the US a few months before. And we were working out of this small office, north of Tel Aviv, it took me like an hour on a bus to get there every day there and back. And two and a half years later, we have grown just an unbelievable amount. And it's sometimes really quite surreal to see it.

Michael Hingson 27:33
It's it's an amazing company. I just learned about it literally about 12 and a half months ago, and have gotten very much involved in it and find the same sort of thing. It's an interesting ride. It's a great ride. It's it's a great company, and there are a lot of things that it's doing. So So what exactly did you start doing? And are you still doing the same thing you did? And what do you do now? Exactly?

Rafi Glantz 28:02
Ah, that's a good question. So I started out doing just regular sales, I had access to be I was one of our I guess you'd call it an account executive. And within a couple of months, it became clear that we needed somebody in the company to handle enterprise accounts. And despite not really having any specific experience doing that. The powers that be which are shared deck, LM gal pulled me into an office and said, Hey, do strategic partnerships. And I said, What's that, and they said, we'll figure it out. So there was a little bit more planning than that. But they kind of threw me into the deep end there. We built a lot of really cool partnerships with organizations like Synchro and real page and other groups whose names I won't get into right now. And from there, we realize that now we really need you know, as we grow, we need somebody who really has experience and processes and is more professional to handle that. So we brought in Darryl, who now does that and I moved over to the partner success team, which I did part time a little bit in the partner success in strategic but now I really work with our agency partners because excessively has partnerships with almost 5000 agencies in the United States and Canada. And I work with those partners to help them with essentially whatever they need accessibility wise, you know, some of them, they have a lot of technical questions that need addressing, they might not be sure how to go about making a website accessible really, and with others, there are more questions relating to how do I get my clients to want to spend money on accessibility? Because unfortunately, there are most business owners out there today. If you tell them, hey, you can make your website accessible for this and this and this, their immediate answer is, well, what happens if I don't, because I don't want to spend that money. And I don't really agree with that approach. But that is, unfortunately, their approach. So a big part of my job is arming these agency partners with the right tools and the right talk tracks and points to make and statistics that will help them explain to these business owners why accessibility makes sense, not just for their business, but also morally and legally.

Michael Hingson 30:34
So, for fun, what what's good is, what do you say? What do you say to someone? Or what would you say to someone who says, I just don't want to spend the money to make my website accessible? And I asked that, and I'll tell you why. Ask it, I'd love your thoughts on this as well, is you were well aware that over the past several months, there have been some people, and it's a relatively small number, comparatively speaking, but still, they're very vocal, who say none of this stuff works. It's not good. The companies just plain don't have good practices and so on. And the only way to do web access is to do it right from the outset, or to do it with manual coding. And I'm sure there are all sorts of other arguments that you hear, but what do you say to the person who says don't want to spend the money?

Rafi Glantz 31:24
Well, yeah, let's let's take that into points. Because I think the the don't want to spend the money is one point, and then the detractors are another, I'll address both. But let's tell because I want to spend the money. Right, so don't want to spend the money. I usually say one of two things. One is the really positive side, which is hey, 26% of American adults, according to the CDC, live with a disability, even if I cut that down to 5%, who really have trouble using websites, I know very few business owners, that wouldn't invest $50 a month to increase their market share by 5%. And to be perfectly blunt with you, sir, if you can't afford $50, for 5% more customers, your business is a bigger problem than accessibility. And I know that that sounds a little bit aggressive, but it is the case. And then I'll also mention something that you'd actually brought up in a previous, previous webinar that we did. The Nielsen data that shows that people with disabilities are the most brand loyal community, and particularly online, most businesses now are doing their best to build a supportive and positive community of customers and of users. So this is a great way to do that. And I'll also try to humanize it a little bit and say, hey, put yourself in somebody's shoes for a second, who needs to use a screen reader or Braille reader or click stick? And let's say you're looking for new shoes, right? If you go on Google, you're gonna go through 1215 websites before you even find one you can use, then by the time you do if you need shoes again, do you really think you're gonna go searching for a shoe store? No, you're gonna go back to the one that was accessible. But more than that, you're going to share it with your community. Because there are so few business owners in whatever your space is, that cater to people with disabilities, people will flock to you. And I think that that's just a general advantage of capitalism, that if you choose to stand out by being accessible, and being one of the first movers in this space, which I know, it seems like there's already a lot of activity and accessibility, but less than 2% of websites are accessible. So if you make yourself accessible, even next week, you're still one of the first movers, it sets you apart, it puts you in a new class. And it's also a great, it's a great piece of PR to put out both internally for your company culture, and externally for the world to see that you are a brand that cares about all people and takes all their money.

Michael Hingson 33:51
There you are. Well, how does how does access to be fit into that? What is it that accessibly? Does that company should take that kind of an interest in?

Rafi Glantz 34:03
That's a good question. So I'll first say that our position to my best understanding of it is that accessibility and I know this is a very San Francisco thing, say so get ready, Mike. Accessibility is more of a journey than a destination. You know, there is no such thing as 1,000% Perfect accessible website at all times, for a lot of reasons. But the real big thing is that websites change all the time. And sometimes there are things that an automated widget can't fully remediate on its own. So what we've done at accessiBe is we've created a full web accessibility hub. And we're in the process of releasing certain things now. But the big flagship product that everybody probably knows about is our automated tool, the widget, the overlay, whatever you want to call it, and that's a really big important step towards web accessibility. using that tool. You can make pretty much any website reasonably accessible. In 48 hours or less for less than $500 now depends on the size of the website, it depends on certain other factors. But that's generally the case. That being said, depending on your website structure, your needs your compliance obligations, you may want certain other things, whether that's testing by a person who actually has disabilities and can confirm that everything's working properly, or whether it's us working with you to develop best practices for your internal development, so that you can make sure that when you build new products, or you update your website, you're doing so in the most accessible way possible. To access campus, you know, we're actually creating a learning center for developers to become web accessibility developers, because I know that a lot of our marketing and conversations are about an automated solution. But we do want to empower developers to make these changes permanently. The issue is that when we looked and I say, we're not really looking for this, but when we looked, we could not find a really great comprehensive learning center for a developer to go from a JavaScript developer to an accessibility developer. And so we just made it, we're creating that we're creating access flow or creating access find, we're building this whole network so that whatever your needs are relating to accessibility, we'll be able to meet. And we're going to do our best to do that in an affordable way and an accessible way. Because we, as much as we'd love it, if everybody made accessibility, a core tenet of their business and of their approach to the web to the web, we also have to recognize that many website owners, in fact, the majority, they spend less than $1,000 a year on their entire website infrastructure. So there has to be a relatively easy and affordable way for them to achieve some modicum of compliance as well. I think

Michael Hingson 36:53
one of the important things to make sure people understand is that if you use something like excessive BS, overlay technology, it's it's AI Artificial Intelligence powered overlay, you're not suddenly saying My website is perfectly and totally accessible. But it makes a significant difference. And because of things like what you said, access flow, without going into a lot of detail about it, it will give you tools to help you determine what else needs to be done to make the website accessible in a more complete way. And that's extremely important to be able to do. You know, you have talked about I think that the right thing the the moral and ethical reasons for making your website accessible, and it's something that we should do, we don't tend to think in an inclusive way, whether it's here in the US, or in most places, although in Israel, the laws are now pretty stringent about website access, but they're not really stringent throughout the world, in that they don't absolutely mandate and require totally, that websites, for example, and apps and other things need to be accessible. And people do find ways or try to find ways to get around it in various places. Now, I don't know much about the history in Israel and what people do today. But I know we're here, even though a number of courts have said that the Americans with Disabilities Act does apply to the internet, because the ADEA does not specify brick and mortar facilities as the only places that businesses have to provide inclusion to address. But some people say well, but the ADEA was invented before the internet. And so it doesn't apply. And a couple of courts have gone along with that. So Congress needs to address it. The president needs to address it, and they haven't done that yet.

Rafi Glantz 38:58
I agree that I think one of the issues that we're dealing with that we saw and continue to see during these Facebook, or I guess now I should say meta, these Facebook hearings is that our elected officials don't seem to understand how the internet works by any stretch, and neither do judges for for the most part. I know, I know only a very few number of judges personally, but none of them are JavaScript developers, you know, none of them know how to code. It's not something that you're trained on in law school. So I think that in general, there needs to be a change in the approach to this so that there's some sort of mechanism for people to get trusted information. So they'll be able to make a reasonable decision because I do think that a lot of the decisions that have been made are being made from a place that's not as informed as it could be.

Michael Hingson 39:49
Well, I think that's true. And if you look at things like excessive BS ace audit tool, or you can go to the World Wide Web Consortium website, and Find their audit tool. There are places where you can go to say to a website, here is my website address. Tell me how accessible My website is. I think people would be really surprised. For the most part, if they found out just how inaccessible and how unintrusive most websites really are. Yeah, you know, most people

Rafi Glantz 40:23
don't think I talked to business owners and agency owners like, probably 910 12 times a day at this point. And most of them, very few of them have any hate in their heart towards people with disabilities, the real issue is that they just don't think about it. Because number one, they're busy running their business, they're, you know, chicken with their head cut off on most days anyways. But unless you have somebody in your family who has disabilities or in your community that you're close to that you work with on a regular basis or something, for most people, it's just not top of the mind. Now, not saying that should be the case by any stretch. But it's, it's a challenge for us that we need to make this more visible, for lack of a better word.

Michael Hingson 41:05
Absolutely. And, you know, the reality is that there are some who say, I'm just not going to spend any money, I can't afford to do it. But again, it's a mindset shift, if they looked at it, as you said, that is, think of all the business that you can get by making your website accessible. I think anyone who has any insight into the business concepts of the world would agree that it makes perfect sense to make your website accessible. And then when you bring things into it, like access fine, and maybe you want to explain a little bit about what that is, but access fine, also, can help make a difference for people.

Rafi Glantz 41:45
Yeah, access fine, is I talk about it on my calls a lot, because it's a huge opportunity for a business owner. So access find is the world's first search engine that is only going to display accessible results. So only accessible websites, and everybody who uses accessibility is pretty much going to be on there. So what I like to say is that if you're everybody does SEO now, right? Everybody wants to optimize their search results and get found on the internet. Well, if you're doing SEO on Google, you're competing with every other shoe store, every other hockey rink, whatever it is in the world, and certainly everyone in your area, if you're on access, find you're competing with like five other people, because nobody's accessible yet. So as frustrating as that is, it's a huge opportunity for the early movers to establish themselves.

Michael Hingson 42:33
And I want to make it clear as that access find is not just accessibly. That is it is the intent is for it to be website remediation process agnostic, as long as you are working to make your website accessible, it doesn't matter what tool you use, so long as you do it. Because the reality is, when it comes down to it, there are two things that go into making a website accessible. One is the code that somehow gets inserted somewhere that does things like label images, or label buttons and define links and so on, tells you that you have a shopping cart. And so that's that's one. But the other is specifically looking at what you do to make that website usable. And a lot of it has to do with labeling. But it also has to do sometimes with layout and other things like that. And so the issue is it doesn't matter what tool you use. But however you do it, the fact is that the evidence of you doing it is visible to audit tools that look for it. And it's visible to people who who know how to look for it. And that's what you really want to get to.

Rafi Glantz 43:56
Yeah, I mean, I, we don't care how you become accessible. If people can use your website. That's awesome. And we want to put that on access fine. And like access find is not solely an accessible thing. It's a nonprofit. And we're in partnership with the Christopher Reeve Foundation and with the Viscardi Center, and a whole bunch of other really awesome organizations that believe in the same goal that we do that whether you choose to work with us or anybody else. The goal here is accessibility. And that's actually, you know, we did this ad that I got a lot of Facebook messages from my mom's friends about this ad that we ran a national ad campaign in the US which you know all about Mike the Unstopables. And the reason the the purpose of this was not so much to sell excessively, but to sell the idea of accessibility, because like Like we said before, so few people are really aware of this at all. And of those people very, very few have it at the top of their mind.

Michael Hingson 44:55
Diversity is a term has really gone away from dealing with disabilities and I will make that argument all day. We talk about diversity when we're dealing with sexual orientation, race, and gender and so on. But disabilities don't get included in that, which is why I prefer to use the term inclusive, because either you are or you aren't. And if you're leaving anyone out, then you're not inclusive. And it's as simple as that. The fact is, as you pointed out, 20 to 26% of all people in this country and mostly throughout the world, have some sort of disability, how often were we discussed or talked about, or issues that we face brought up during last year's presidential campaign in this country? And how often are those kinds of things considered today, and it's just reality is not much.

Rafi Glantz 45:47
Yeah, and it's a real shame, because there's a massive missed opportunity, I think, you'll probably know the number better than me. But there's close to $500 billion a year in disposable income in the community. And most people are just choosing not to tap into it for some reason. It, it doesn't make sense, particularly now, in a time when we have inflation, we have supply chain problems, we have all of this stuff, and people are scrambling to find customers, you would think that they would want to access the market that's right in front of them.

Michael Hingson 46:18
One of the things that it isn't directly related to web access, but one of the issues that we face as blind people is that the cost for assistive technology, the technology that at least hopefully and does somewhat level, the playing field for us, is expensive screen readers, the software that makes computers talk and describe or verbalize what comes across the screen tools to produce Braille and so on cost money. The National Federation of the Blind has worked with Congress to get introduced into Congress the accessibility assistive technology affordability Act, which calls for a tax credit for people who purchase assistive technology to help us offset some of those costs, yet, and it was actually put into the buyback better program of Congress and Joe Biden. But it's now been dropped as they've been weeding out some of the the programs that people are debating over whether they want to include or not, that is extremely unfortunate that they would that that would even happen, because it's pretty universal thing that for us to be able to do the same things that you do, there are going to be some costs, because we have made our universe some site oriented, that we leave people out. And we've we've done that in various other ways. But even I think I could make a strong case, to a degree more with blindness than than anything else. We think that eyesight is the only game in town. And we don't tend to think about the fact that some of this technology costs, we're not saying pay for it, but give us some tax credits to help us offset some of the costs. And so there's a push right now to get that put back into the bill. But you know, we don't tend to think about people with disabilities in general. One of my favorite examples, is we watch the view everyday, Karen watches it. Now, last month was national employment, or National Disability Employment Awareness Month. I didn't hear actually, except for one time, any disability mentioned on the view in the whole month of October, and that time wasn't even relating to employment or disability awareness, other than saying how inspirational it was that a couple of people with Down syndrome were doing something. It's not inspiration, we need its recognition and understanding and a raising of expectations about society. Absolutely.

Rafi Glantz 48:54
And there's just not enough representation. For all the reasons that you point out there just isn't. I think, what was Senator Tammy Duckworth? I think she's one of the first if not the first woman with disabilities in the Senate. And I mean, she, I could not think of a more heroic story. I mean, she was a combat helicopter pilot, if I'm if I'm remembering this correctly, who was wounded in combat, and ended up becoming a United States Senator. I mean, I could not think of something that would be more appropriate to teach kids, but you rarely hear about that today. The news stories that we hear about are so much, so much less interesting and so much more depressing.

Michael Hingson 49:37
What's interesting is that she isn't the first to have a disability and be in the Senate or the House, and specifically one of our previous podcast guests, a lady named Peggy Chung, who is also known as the blind history lady, talked about the fact that before 1940, there had been three blind people in the house and to whom served in the Senate. But since then, not one single blind person has been in either house, which is kind of interesting. But really, we've gone backwards, we have gone backwards. And she makes that point during the podcast. So if people haven't heard that it's a fascinating one to go listen to. She's got some great stories. She even talks about the fact that the typewriter was originally invented for a blind person. It's a great story, you should go find it. It's, it's, it's in, in the the podcast, and

Rafi Glantz 50:29
I heard that clip on your LinkedIn, you saw that? Yeah.

Michael Hingson 50:33
Good for you. I appreciate you looking. But it's a fascinating story. And the reality is that so many people could make contributions to society, but we tend not to recognize or lose out on getting what they can offer, because we operate in the assumption that there's only one way to do things.

Rafi Glantz 50:55
Yeah. I mean, one of the things that you said initially, is something that I quote you on, I do attribute it, don't worry. But in my in my call, because I'll bring up you know, Michael Hanson, and everything. And I'll say, well, now he's our chief vision officer. But as he says, You don't need sight to be a visionary. And you know, it gets a chuckle. But it's also true, you really don't. And one of the very few experiences that I've had, that sort of, certainly not put me in your shoes, but let me feel a little bit of what it might be like, was, there's this restaurant in Tel Aviv and Jaffa, and I forget what it's called, but they put everything in complete darkness. So for about two and a half hours, you're eating, drinking being served everything, mostly by people who have disabilities, both deafness and blindness, as if you're part of that community. And initially, it was very disconcerting. And I did make sure not to wear a white shirt, of course. But it was, for lack of a better word, very eye opening.

Michael Hingson 52:00
The only problem with that, and a lot of us express this concern is if you go away from that having had challenges and you think that's how it is for for people who are blind, you're missing the point. Because the fact is just like for people who can see you learn techniques to do the things that you learn, the fact is that I'd be glad to go to that same restaurant with you and laugh at you while you're having a problem. Because I don't have that problem. Because I've learned techniques. And so there was an organization several years ago that created a website, and was called how I see it, or that's how eye see it the is Eye. And they asked their members to put up on the website, videos of themselves being blindfolded, trying to accomplish tasks. And the whole intent of it was to say see how difficult it is to do this if you're blind. And the reality is, they were so wrong by doing that. And what actually occurred was that blind people discovered it and started putting up our own videos on the same website, saying See how easy it is if you learn and actually overwhelmed the site, and eventually was taken down. And eventually there were some discussions. But it was an organization that has to do with eyesight, and blindness and so on. And they missed the whole point. The reality is that, that it's not the blindness or the eyesight. It's how you learn to deal with it. Most sighted people don't learn to be very observant, by comparison to say, a Navy Seal or someone in the military or people who learn to use their eyes or their ears extremely well. And people who truly learn to understand their senses recognize that, that in fact, there's more than one way to do things. And it isn't always about one particular sense. Absolutely.

Rafi Glantz 53:56
I think a great example of that is actually one of the guys who helped create accessories, initial solution a dt. So he's a friend of sheers. I'm imagining you might have even had the chance to meet him.

Michael Hingson 54:08
I haven't met I know about it, but I haven't met him yet.

Rafi Glantz 54:11
Okay, so get excited. But he is a really nice guy. He came in and showed us a presentation. But what really impressed me was that this guy, not only does this screen reader talk about two and a half times my normal speaking speed, and my speed is not slow. He's also listening to music and also coding while he's having everything read to him and everything. That is very impressive, regardless of any kind of ability or disability. Like I don't think that I would be able to do that. Without like you say without a lot of practice. And there are absolutely strategies and stuff that you would learn to to help you do it. But for someone like me, it's still impressive.

Michael Hingson 54:54
So I have a couple of other things. One is I want to get back To the whole issue of access, and so on, we talked all about the moral aspect of it. But the reality is there is a legal aspect of it, and what do you what do you say to people? Or let me let me combine both of them together, there have been criticisms that that people say is bad marketing to say that you shouldn't make your website accessible just because somebody might sue you. And creating that level of fear. When in reality, it does happen, and it can happen. But what do you say to people about that? And how do you deal with the people who plain say, that's wrong to even say?

Rafi Glantz 55:38
So it's an important point to bring up? And I think that number one, it's in arguable that this is a real problem. Now, could you argue it in court? Sure, you can argue whatever you want in court. But as you know, the American legal system is not 100% perfect all the time for everyone to say the least. So there is a lot of case law to show that you do need to be accessible. The real problem that we face today is the demand letter problem. And it's a lot more of a murky issue than the full on lawsuits. Because the people who send lawsuits, in my experience, much of the time, these are actually well intentioned people who actually have tested this site, they want to use the website and they can't. The demand letters, on the other hand, are coming from a relatively small number of law firms that have identified this as a great way for them to make money making settlements. And unfortunately, in our, in my opinion, particular, that tends to paint the community of people with disabilities in a very negative light. Because in my experience that I believe also in yours, your first instinct when something is not perfect, or as expected is not to sue the pants off of somebody, you're going to engage in a dialogue with them and try to get them to understand why this is something important. So when people tell me, Hey, I don't really believe I'm going to get sued. Sometimes I'll be a little bit rude and just say, Okay, wait. But what I usually will respond with is a story that actually happened to me. So about two years ago, I was in Las Vegas, right before Corona started speaking about web accessibility, and somebody interrupted me about halfway through the presentation, right when I was talking about the legalities, and he claims to own 60 locations of a payday loan company. Now, I won't defend payday loan companies, I don't understand how 3,000% interest is legal in the United States of America, that's a different conversation. But he claims to own 60 locations, and he got a demand letter from some attorney asking for $10,000 Because his website wasn't accessible. Now, this guy's never heard of accessibility before, which is puts him in the same boat as the vast majority of business owners in the United States. So he calls us lawyer and asked the Hey, what's up with what's going on? And the lawyer explains, well, listen, it's you, we shouldn't really fight this. Because if I take this to court and fight it for you, you're going to pay me $100,000. In legal fees, it's going to take like a year and a half. And we'll probably still lose, because you're not accessible. Like you haven't done any work to your website, you don't have any grounds. So he said, Okay, he wrote a check. And he started looking into how to make the rest of his websites accessible. The problem is, and this speaks a lot to the nature of many of these complaints. The day his check cleared, he got 59 more letters and had to settle for $600,000. And as much as I disagree with the business that he's in, I appreciate him having the courage to come forward and speak about it. Because this happens a lot more frequently than we realize, because most business owners who have something like this happen to them, they're not going to speak up about it, they're going to be as quiet as possible, because they don't want to get sued again, and they don't want to cast their business and themselves in a negative light.

Michael Hingson 58:49
The other part about that, though, is that his lawyer wasn't up on it enough to understand that maybe there are ways to address the issue either. Very true. I know, excessively, has interacted with a number of companies, I'm sure you've got stories about this companies that say, Hey, I'm being threatened with a lawsuit. Can you help us and that what accessiblity has done as helped in two ways. One, it's offered its its products, and when that's put on the site, that greatly mitigates a lot of the accessibility issues by just using the overlay not totally, but that it helps. And the other thing that excessive B will do is then show with its its own documentation that it creates case by case. Exactly how the, the website has become accessible. And that in fact, the the lawsuit is not justifiable. Yeah,

Rafi Glantz 59:50
I mean, I don't know the exact number anymore, but I don't even close to it. But it's it's literally in the 1000s of people who have come to us with papers already served and all Almost all those cases, we've managed to make the whole thing go away. We've never had a client successfully sued due to using our tool. And I will also say that having access to be on your website has despite what whatever detractors might want to say, which, you know, they're welcome to say whatever they want. But having accessiBe on your website has become a lot like having the ADT flag on your lawn. You know, people see that flag and realize you have a good security system. And they're a lot more likely to move on to the next victim than test it out. And we've seen that play out quite a bit in recent months.

Michael Hingson 1:00:34
What do you say to the people in there have been consumers who say that we're just not doing things the right way?

Rafi Glantz 1:00:42
I say what I said before, which is it's a journey, it's not a destination, you know, there is no one stop perfect, immediate solution for accessibility? Because it really depends on the website, it depends on how often you're updating it. What industry are you in, you know, medical, and housing have different requirements in many cases than other e commerce stores. But a real the best approach to accessibility, I think, is a comprehensive one that comes at it from multiple angles. So yeah, you want to have best practices. When you're building a website, you want to have all of the alt text and Aria labels and features on there. You also want to have an overlay widget because as you know, Mike, not everybody who's colorblind is colorblind the same way, right. So if you pick like a couple of colors to use on your website, no matter what colors you choose, they're not accessible to everybody. So I think that there's a layered approach to accessibility that can include both best practices, manual remediation after the fact and automated remediation as well, to give you the most complete picture.

Michael Hingson 1:01:48
And that's really as good as it gets that it is a journey, you know, always will be a journey. There are people who rightly say the only true real way to create an inclusive or accessible website or anything accessible is to do it right from the outset. And that's, that's, that's absolutely valid. But that means that WordPress has to build such stringent tools into its system, that any website that's created or any, any system that's created through WordPress has to be accessible before it could be released. Microsoft has to fully include accessibility in everything that it does, right from the outset, not making it an afterthought. Apple needs to do the same thing. But Apple also needs to because it has all these apps that come out of the App Store, Apple needs to mandate a basic level of accessibility that apps beat. And I have not seen that Apple requires that today. So you can create and people create all the time apps that aren't accessible. Nice, I put it that way. Because Apple, in fact, has built a level of accessibility into its products. It's it is made screen readers. And in Apple's case, it's called VoiceOver, it has made a screen reader, a part of the technology that it produces on all Macs is on on iPhones, it's on iPads. They've made their websites pretty usable. But they don't mandate the same thing about the people who come to the App Store and require that abs that websites are excuse me, apps are fully accessible, or at least accessible to the point where they can be and I understand that there are times that websites or apps are going to display videos, or let's not use videos, but images or maps that we don't know how to verbalize yet automatically, but people do need to address those issues. And we're not doing that yet.

Rafi Glantz 1:03:59
Right. And I think there's a really important point that you brought up there that there is some responsibility that lies with these big giant tech companies like WordPress, like Wix, you know, whatever name name a giant company, because, well, it's all well and good to talk about America and say, hey, you know, we need to build accessible websites. But in the developing world around the world, there are there's even less attention being paid to accessibility a lot of the time and even less budget. And that being the case, the only realistic way that many of these websites can be accessible is by these giant providers mandating and providing tools for that to be possible. Because again, I mentioned that, you know, most companies in the United States pay less than $1,000 a year for their whole website. Worldwide. That number is divided significantly. You know, there's a lot of people who pay even less and we're very proud to be able to offer our automated solution which is an important component like we said Have a layered approach to accessibility at less than 500 bucks a year. But I think you'll agree it's hard to convince someone to spend 500 on accessibility if they spent 200. On the website, you know?

Michael Hingson 1:05:11
Sure. Well, and but the reality is, again, the issue isn't mandated that somebody do it. The role modeling really has to be done by those who develop the basic technology. And so those who create WordPress design tools, WordPress that creates its design tools, or Microsoft should have the absolute best screen reader built into its technology right from the outset, and it and it doesn't. Google is the same way any of them, it isn't mandating that somebody else do it. It really needs to start with them. They really need to build in absolute accessibility requirements or absolute accessibility processes right from the outset. So nothing can be released until it's accessible. They gotta lead the way. They've got to lead the way. And they don't, which is unfortunate.

Rafi Glantz 1:06:09
Well, hopefully, we can take them by the hand and get them in

Michael Hingson 1:06:12
there. Right? Well, I am going to tell you, thank you for for being here. I'd love to do some more of this. If you'd like to chat again in the future.

Rafi Glantz 1:06:22
I was happy to talk to you, Mike.

Michael Hingson 1:06:23
What a guy. But I really want. But I do want to thank you for being on unstoppable mindset. It has been very fascinating. Lots of good stories. And I think we really hit on some high points. I hope people will go visit us on our website, Michaelhingson.com/podcast. And we'd love your comments, you can email me through the the website page, which is accessible, using accessiBe. My email address is [email protected] And we'd love to hear from you. I hope that you'll listen to some of the other podcasts. And of course, once you listen to this, please give us a five star review and whatever podcast system that you use, we would love that and appreciate that as well. But Rafi again, thank you for being here. And I want to thank you all for listening.

Michael Hingson 1:07:21
You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.
1 hr 10 min
November 03, 2021 Episode 6 – Shaping the Future of Assistive Technology: An Interview with Gal Bareket
Meet Gal Bareket, Chief Solutions Officer of accessiBe. Gal, an Israeli-born technology leader tells his story of growing up in Israel including serving in the Israeli military. He talks about his experiences forming and growing his companies before joining accessiBe. Gal will discuss his views about internet access and his experiences helping to shape the vision and products of the assistive technology industry’s largest internet remediation company, accessiBe. His stories will fascinate and enthrall you and inspire you to do better in whatever task you undertake.
Some directories do not show full show notes. For the complete transcription please visit https://michaelhingson.com/podcast
About the Host:
Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.
Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com
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Transcription Notes
Michael Hingson 00:00
Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast we're inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.
Michael Hingson 01:22
Hi, I'm Michael Hanson, and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. And today unexpected in a lot of ways, partly because, up until about a week and a half ago, I didn't expect that I would have our guest on today. But here he is. I would like you all to meet gala bracket gal is in Israel and gal works for accessibility. I've told you all a little bit about accessibility in the past, accessibility is a company that has created a variety of products and systems to make websites more usable, so that we can achieve our ultimate goal of making the internet fully accessible by 2025. And one of the people who's going to help with that is gal who is our guest today. God Welcome to unstoppable mindset.
Gal Bareket 02:19
Hi Michael, thank you for having me. This is such a pleasure having the country having to have the continued conversations the ongoing conversation with you.
Michael Hingson 02:27
Well, and and we don't get to talk nearly enough. So here's a chance to do some of that. So you are in Israel. So right now it's probably something like about 636 or 637 in the evening.
Gal Bareket 02:40
Also, daylight saving brought us one hour back. Right now we actually 5:30pm It's great still have today. Yes. Yes.
Michael Hingson 02:48
So the daylight saving just in for you.
Gal Bareket 02:50
Just just editor just started with. We just added we are it's getting dark earlier.
Michael Hingson 02:56
Yeah. And we do that next Sunday. So we'll we'll catch back up to you. I don't know why we can't have a standard in the world, but it's the way it is. Well, so So tell me a little bit about you. So you're from Israel.
Gal Bareket 03:15
So I'm from Israel, I had the privilege of joining system B in early May this year, mid May late this year. Previous to excessive A i A little bit perhaps about my background in the military, which provides a little bit of both spice and interest to the role. I served in the Israeli elite intelligence unit called at 200 were just a few great things that the military experience that is so far removed sometimes we have so far removed for someone who didn't get to go through it but essentially through college however, you have the you are being put in stressful situations and I had the privilege in the age of 19 to already have 200 to 400 people under my supervision and in addition you get to work in the army on on trying to focus on on solution rather than the problem after and that's something that helps to cultivate and help cultivate the myself throughout the years. Which then led is a little bit a little bit further about my personal background. I graduate from Tel Aviv University with a law major had had to work in a hand the work in Israeli parliament our sides Knesset MK MP MK members, parliament members in the Israeli Knesset and helping them legislate laws it's so it's something that in Israel also it's important to share that from the edge D getting a degree standpoint. You know how in America you do we go to preschool at pre law and then a law school in Israel when you finish with the military service and you go to university You automatically immediately choose a profession, if you will. And hence the law major that did allowed me to immediately pursue the degree itself, and bend practice law. How ever prior prior to practicing law is that in my last year of school, I was working on two companies at the time. And one of those two of those companies actually launched but I had to make a decision because I couldn't operate both at the same time, I chose the company that accessibly equity hired, it was a company in those fatality in the industry, we were working on trying to help bridge the communication gap, how funny between guests and hoteliers, or between guests and staff and between people, essentially to because communication is almost key to everything. And I'm sure we're going to talk about it a little bit over over our chat and it but in addition, the bridging the communication gap during my time the Israeli parliament, you could see that if the minister doesn't necessarily or the the Knesset member the necessarily came or a parliament member with a judicial background, the ability to legislate, the law becomes cumbersome, and hence you need a mediator to digest what you but what what the request was was was created and then able to push it forward. Now, this is a little bit so just to summarize a little bit about me some army time, great experience some to leave university, a growth towards working within touching the bills themselves understanding the cumbersome and hence why I get one of the many reasons why I'm attracted to accessibly because there's so little tweaks that can be done in order to make so many people live so much better.
Michael Hingson 06:54
I'm curious, you, you raise something that just sort of prompts a question. serving in the military, that's something that everyone in Israel does. Right? When they're right, when they're growing up. What that is something that is really foreign to us over here in the United States, and that not everyone is required to do that. What do you think the real value of serving three years in the military gave you? Or why do you what do you think about having had to do that?
Gal Bareket 07:26
I think that when a when a teen a get to the age of 1817 and starts a process, a process in which there is an entity called the army that started working on, on identifying various aspects about your personality, IQ and capabilities, is when it's today thinking about in hindsight, it's crazy. Back then, it seemed, it seemed it seemed normal, it seems like I'm being categorized in order to go to a place and trying to optimize me as resources or try to optimize the skill set that I bring to the table and see how it can help the the entire entity to grow and within those 17 between 17 to 18 as you go through the process, getting getting into the military getting into the military service, which is you know, like applying to college like sending out those envelopes. When you get there is but it but in an opposite direction you are being then targeted by the army in various units you can serve in whether it's combat or non combat alike, within the Army, then you get you have you get to have a when in contradictory to college, there is much more discipline, much more discipline in terms not necessarily the discipline that you would feel or think about when I say the word discipline but more order. organization skills you have for Israel is a country that knowns for it's a formality, the Army is a place where formalities finally being get structured. There is different entities that are in charge of different things in the army and then you get to understand how to when you get out of the army how to better succeed within the commercial world because you already understand some of the help within the intelligence unit in particular how to communicate when you are being trained how to how to be in charge of large portion of people at the same time and mitigate and mitigate and mitigate issues you are you're becoming a mini CEO of me as small medium enterprise company. It when you're between the ages of 18 to 22. And when you get released are like whoa, but what just happened? Did I just do that I learned all those things, and I can't share it with anyone in the world.
Michael Hingson 10:05
But But you learned a lot of responsibility. You learned how to do those, which I'm assuming that you feel were very much a life building experience for you and one that you value 100% There's something you wouldn't change for the world.
Gal Bareket 10:24
That is true. That is true. I can't it's like, it's like, you know, they say, I don't I don't regret things I did. I regret things I didn't do. Things that I did. This was part of the many actions that were supposed to bring me to the person that I am today. So I try to not regret my or my actions that I already took.
Michael Hingson 10:46
What do you regret that you didn't do?
Gal Bareket 10:49
Oh, i very i bet i I just dug myself my own hole.
Michael Hingson 10:57
Just just popped out. It was it's a it's a great line. And I think you're absolutely right, we, you know, I once went to a meeting. And the people, the it was actually a church. And the pastor said, you know, the problem with how we view mistakes is that when you make a mistake, if you legitimately make a mistake, you've made the mistake. Now the question is, what are you going to learn from it, but you can't argue or spend your whole life worrying about the mistake you made? It's how you progress from it. And it's the same sort of thing. We learn, we make choices, and we do things. And once we've done them, they are they're part of us. But the real question is, what do we what do we learn? Or issue think back? After doing something? What is it that I didn't do that I could have done? And that's something that we're going to talk about? In the book, I mentioned that we're beginning to write a new book. And that's one of the issues that we're going to talk about is that, that the reality is it's it's not the choices so much we make, it's what do we learn from them, so that we can make better choices?
Gal Bareket 12:08
Right, right. Look at the intersection of in hindsight and evaluate whether what how we how we actually impracticality took the whatever action that we were supposed to take and understand whether it was right or wrong, or how could we have got become became better every intersection probably yield an opportunity to self observation.
Michael Hingson 12:32
It should. And one of the things that I experienced is a lot of people don't take that time later, to analyze what they do and what they did. And as I put it, I'm my own worst critic. I like to record speeches that I give, and I am these podcasts I listened to because I learned from them. And I recognize that I am, and should be harder on myself than anyone else could possibly be. If I learned to do self analysis, and I think that's an important part of life that all of us can, can learn to develop. Because when we analyze ourselves, if we look each day back at what we did, and what we didn't do, that we could have done or should have done, that, is what helps us move forward and enhances or can we help us move forward and enhance our lives?
Gal Bareket 13:27
Right when we're we were consciously making decisions when we were unconscious of the decisions that were taking place, and we just let ourselves be part of I agree mycologists My only advice to you is just be constructive is yourself. If you're your worst critic, give yourself just make sure that you are not taking yourself to too much down before so you'll be able to actually get up.
Michael Hingson 13:49
Yeah, I think that's the that's the point is that when you're your own worst critic, it's the point that you will see things maybe sooner than other people will or they don't want to tell you, but if you see it, the question is how you then deal with it. And you're absolutely right. This being your own worst critic isn't to tear yourself down, but it's to give you the opportunity to say how do I handle that different next time? Right. Thanks. And then remember next time, that's the other part of the of the challenge and the problem. It sounds like with with your experiences and so on having been in the military and gone through that life experience for several years. You've been put in a situation where you get to analyze a lot
Gal Bareket 14:40
that's true. I almost everywhere every place I go every every interaction that I that I encounter I make sure to I need to make sure to be alert and keen and understanding for the for the for for something bad to happen. Proactive listening is is something that that the army is also not that the army was promoting initially when I was there but leaving the Army in being in keep endorsing proactive listening. And that's I think, where the most progress that can be done on an individual basis because then when actual conversations and and decision making are actually being taken under as conscious as they shouldn't, then you can actually move forward, learn processes, and look at things from a retrospective standpoint, create proper hindsight, and progress.
Michael Hingson 15:37
And that's all we can ask ourselves to do. That's true, that makes perfect sense. Were you ever in combat in the military? Or were you removed from that somewhat.
Gal Bareket 15:50
So thankfully, in the elite Intelligence Unit, what I did, I was I needed to facilitate the teams that went, I was an officer of operations. And part of my role was to make sure that the people that are going to various locations that don't necessarily as places that they want to be in or places that the entity the people that are there wants them to be there. I needed to create to make sure that everyone will literally to make sure that there will be safety for everyone. And constant communication, the hospitality and housing would work great. And never people would come we will come back, come back come back safely on both ends. Yeah, that's that's that's mainly was my own version of his offer, operational person I didn't I wasn't the first to come. But was that but I needed to be in charge of those who went there?
Michael Hingson 16:46
Yeah. Well, that's a pretty awesome responsibility and an interesting skill to learn, which I'm assuming was very helpful you to you, once you got out of the military, because you learn how to deal with people and you learn to understand what people think and how they think someone.
Gal Bareket 17:05
However, in the in their in life after the army, things are a little bit more relaxed. Yes. The quick decisions are important, but they are not necessarily some of them are life changing, or some of them are. But they are they can be taking, they can be taken with some thought behind them. And it's, it's not necessary. Yeah.
Michael Hingson 17:35
I hear what you're saying. It's, it's different. Do you think a lot of people forget a lot of the lessons that they learn in the military? Given the way you describe it? Yeah.
Gal Bareket 17:45
I think that I think that's life is is dissected into chapters, and each chapter that you go through for, you know, youth, growing up youth, then in Israel, it's the military time that is in the background, but you yourself are growing from 82 to 2223, depends how many years you decided to participate in the army. And there's all those intersection are those the parts are, are our parts where you grow from, grow, have evaluate whether this is the person, you know, am I and I don't like to speak about myself in the third day, but I'm his girl from the military is the same guy that is the same person that he is today? Or is there just a bunch of skill set and learnings and morals that I can take with me as as part of who I am, and then learn how to utilize them with with the person who grew immensely since that time? In the past. So yeah, this life life, life is interesting. This way, it throws you into chapters that you don't necessarily know when it starts when it's when it starts when it ends, because sometimes inertia just comes in. And so being conscious is continuing our previous anecdotes is really important. I know
Michael Hingson 19:17
for me, having gone through the university and gotten a master's degree in physics, one of the things that I tell people is I don't use the physics directly today. But the disciplines the mindset, the thought process that I learned being very heavily involved in science and in the philosophy of science and having had the opportunity to study how people in science think and someone has helped immensely. So physics is something that I think was extremely valuable to me, although I don't use it because my life took some other turns. The skills and the disciplines I learned from it, are extremely valuable, and I wouldn't trade them for the world.
Gal Bareket 20:01
Would you have? If you could have gone back? Would you have taken the route of pursuing physics? Or are you like, just the more on the morals from it?
Michael Hingson 20:11
No, I would still, I would still have pursued physics, I learned a lot that I don't think I could have learned without being involved with it. And, again, when I was taking physics, I didn't know that my life would change in some of the ways that it did. Excuse me, but, but it did change. And so it's, it's all about growth. And it's all about learning how to accept that growth, and accept the choices that you make, I believe that I can trace a lot of my life back to choices that I made and how one choice led to another choice. And I think that's important for us to be able to do. And I don't say that in a negative way. But rather, the one choice led to another choice that led to another choice. And along the way, I learned from each one, which also caused me to help make the choices that I made.
Gal Bareket 21:11
I understand and agree in 1,000%.
Michael Hingson 21:15
So you, you went through the military, and then you came out. And I'm fascinated by the fact that then when you went through University and graduated with a law degree, and then started working in the legislature, I came at the legislature from a different standpoint, in that although I was in the sciences and someone, I also joined the National Federation of the Blind, a consumer organization, the largest civil rights organization for blind people. And we're very much about dealing with getting appropriate legislation to deal with the civil rights of blind people. And so I was very heavily involved for many years, in various ways, working with Congress and state legislatures. And so to understand the the law process, and some of the political negotiations, it's a fascinating world, unfortunately, I think that it's changed a lot, at least in this country in the last 40 years or so it's become much more divisive and much more political than it really should be. And you almost get to the point where you wonder if people are really looking out for the country anymore.
Gal Bareket 22:30
Yeah, I think it's a sickness of every country. I think it's, it's, it's a sickness of, of either the parliamentarian system, or the presidential system, the ones that you that America has the presidential system with the two houses, and which automatically creates a lot of stagnation. The fact that there are two entities is that are part of the process of making a decision in Israel, the situation is the same in a parliamentarian system, but different because there are many parties that are supposed to form a coalition. And it happens to be that the minority then controls there has an ad portion and proportional power over the coalition and and then not the Your vote is not necessarily provide us the request of what it is that you are voting for.
Michael Hingson 23:27
It's it's interesting, I think you raise a good point. But it also goes back to mindset, if everyone is really looking at it from a mindset of, yeah, we have different beliefs, we have different points of view about what needs to be done. But we want to do what is right for the benefit of our country. That's a lot different than I want to do what's right as far as I'm concerned, so I can win and gain more power. And that's where I think we've all diverged and deviated that there's too much I've got to be the winner. I've got to be the one to get the power. And the other side shouldn't have any power because they're just totally wrong. As opposed to recognizing that there's value on both sides.
Gal Bareket 24:19
Yeah, yeah. That the political sphere is a sphere that provides a lot of desperation and inconvenience and others and things are so simple to just make them as you are saying they should be but you know, life flips. I find myself and I think I shared with you in our previous conversations, focusing on the things that I can change focus things on the thing, whether it within myself or within my nearby surroundings. I found myself getting as being less involved in an In politics with time speaking of the different entity and or even removing myself from almost complete completely, in order to focus on my, like my current life and accessibly, the the efforts that I'm doing to help the company is doing and letting me be part of it of making the this cliche as it sounds, making the world a better place focusing on those, yeah, focusing, which is, you know, the stuff that are in front of me, or even a year ahead or two years ahead, are within my capacity and bandwidth to influence.
Michael Hingson 25:42
Yeah, you can worry all day about everything that goes on in the world. Or you can, excuse me, or you can learn to focus on the things that you have control over and not worry about the rest. And all too often, we focus on way too much stuff. And we have no effect or control over any of it. If we would learn more to focus we would drive ourselves less crazy. That's so you So you went but you you came out of college and you said you use had been involved in starting two companies, what were the two companies
Gal Bareket 26:21
so one company was in the fashion industry. And what we were doing we used Ay ay ay an image, or AI image recognition and machine learning. We used we were helping it was several years ago now it's now it's a little bit more trending all over. But people that got into fashion blog websites, were looking at different items and not necessarily knew where to shop them or even look at their friends on social media and or various pictures and couldn't know what items are they're wearing the like to see where it was purchased from what we build an engine that is able to determine through image recognition, where is the picture is taken from or where is that what is what item is being is the person wearing, and where and the list of potential stores that is able to then facilitate that it was heavy tech. And that went on that that's that's here.
Michael Hingson 27:26
Now did you didn't write code No,
Gal Bareket 27:30
I you know, I was helping. So, it was the beginning of the road I was up to form formed a team creating terrible infrastructure and processes and then I learned that it would be less it was less prominent in Israel to start with. So, we we were we applied to an acceleration program in Boston, whoever the same time we in May in in the different company and they ended up pursuing for the next five and a half years until excessively in the in that company, that the time that I had to make a decision with this company was was moving to Boston the other company got accepted to an accelerator program in Berlin. So both received a global recognition and now it was a time to choose the the one have had a very tough choice great team on both ends, it's just that fashion is never was my expertise. So hence it was in a very easy check move towards hospitality service industry, AI bridging the communication gap things that are a little bit more in my day felt more in my day to day and hence I invested the my commercial life to a degree into that.
Michael Hingson 28:55
So what was the hospitality company about
Gal Bareket 29:00
so when West one guest comes to hotel today, they would they go to their rooms and ever you know be let's say before COVID Before digitalization went on a rapid scale up probably before COVID When the hotels when guests were finished their booking there was no way for the hotelier to properly start the communication with the guests and allowing the guests to get a seamless experience as the book get they can request the stuff they want pre arrival. They can continue the converse they have they noted in when they get to their room, they don't necessarily choose the landline they can use their own mobile device through their own medium of choice whether it be WhatsApp WeChat, line Facebook, etc. And then as they leave the the the hotel they can decide whether they want or not to continue or not continue the conversation. So we used we replaced the old landlines. During the room to the convenience of not without the need to download any app on your mobile device, you are able to then communicate with the front desk and request whatever it is that you need or maintenance or housekeeping and everything from the palm of your hands without the need to download anything.
Michael Hingson 30:20
So you did that for a period of time? Is that company still working today? Is it still doing the things and setting up the procedures that you you started
Gal Bareket 30:34
and know the company, the company had a great time and, and was working in various places globally until COVID hit when COVID COVID created the big impact for the hospitality industry. And however we were able to find our way through it and we're able to find the right integrator the concrete the right go to market strategies and create the right partnerships. One of these partnerships and ongoing conversations led to the conversations with the with decades share and gal that though that conversations then emerged into into into more than just the conversation in which the guys told us why wouldn't you guys want joining us, help us help us utilize AI bridging that we also need to bridge the communication gap to different degree. And we need we need a team that that scaled in the past in various aspects and is and is able to help us scale further from the from what the team was in amazingly able to accomplish with accessibility.
Michael Hingson 31:49
So though dealing with Internet access is a lot different than dealing with the hospitality industry. What what piqued your interest about what Sher gal and deco were doing with accessibility.
Gal Bareket 32:05
So many things, I'll start with the fact that the vision draws your attention, because it's almost possible to do and when something is impossible to do, it's worthwhile to, to get the hang of it and to try to try and do it by ourselves. The meeting with the with both with the sheer girl and vism the motivation and inspiration that came out of the meeting was a new that this is a company we would like to be part of and then perhaps Lastly, but most importantly, my wife's a mother was a social worker in New York City in which she works directly one on one with people with disabilities. She during you know we had throughout our time together we there were endless Commodore, there were ongoing conversations and the great I got to hear secondhand not firsthand challenges, barriers of people and to have the opportunity to have the opportunity back event to have a conversation about how to have the humble part in entering an entity that is working to do good was a no brainer. It that we are providing our ability to provide service, of course, but being but but moving away from one industry to the web accessibility industry, allowing us to also see how hotels are not Mrs. are not necessarily within compliance are Elia allowing us to see the web accessibility is the is a bigger picture, as the word focusing on digitizing itself. And as accessibility is taking a big stage within the big role on the stage of trying to have working on remediate on making the web accessible on the web. The World Wide Web is such a big word. We're making the world wide web accessible. So yeah, so you ask what what brings you to the company being part of an organism that that's what organism organization that's what it strive for, to take this www are making it accessible, and learning that as I get to accessibly how big the problem is, and that's something that I wasn't aware of. I was aware that it's there. I was aware that some people are facing it. I wasn't aware that it's growing. And I wasn't aware that it's it's how much it affects the day to day life. And as I started to training at accessibly and I was giving the opportunity of speaking with a people with a visually impaired all those technicalities of Have bed bow challenges that people are facing? I knew that this is its this is where I am supposed to be, this is what I need to serve. And this is this is how this is a company, I want to utilize my skill set, you know, to help grow?
Michael Hingson 35:18
Well, and the fact is that, as you stated, what we call the accessibility gap is growing, because of the number of websites that are being created every minute, every day, and how small the number of those websites actually intentionally do what's necessary to bring access in. And I think one of the important concepts to remember about accessibility is you can have all the standards in the world, you can have all of the the requirements that define what access means. But access ultimately is about how usable is the website, right? And that's where it really comes. It's all about, can people use the website? And do the standards make the website as usable as it should be? Or is there more to it, and there is more to it. The standards are a great guideline, which is why we have today what we call the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. But the fact is that it's all about usability. And I think that's been a very strong growth area for accessibility, because access to be when I joined in January was very much involved in talking about access from the standpoint of adhering to the guidelines, I think that there was an intent to want to make website usable, but focus more on the guidelines and the World Wide Web Consortium standards and so on. And is moved to understand that there's a lot more to it than that to make the website world very usable.
Gal Bareket 37:12
I think accessibly is because it was always providing services, they just understood it. Now it's the time to provide the services from scale, at scale. And also, from an educational standpoint, access to be understood, as people were looking out for looking at, at it as a company as a thought leader in the industry as a company who were able to work on and assist many websites. As as we all know, it also received a bunch of heat from either the community or for members or whether whether it's legit or not legit, everything is legitimate desire legitimatize in my book, so it's all fine. The accessible understood that it needs to take needs to do several things it needs to provide a provide education or what we call free education or learning. And you mentioned the word access one of the tools that is coming out as part of the company's culture called Access campus, which its goal is to route and incept within the beginning of developers and marketeers mindset how the digital assets of a website should be accessible. There are there is a there you mentioned usability before Miko usability testing is a term that is taken from the user experience world from the tech industry from the development sphere. We now are trying to claim an access to B and the claim to fame that usability as part of the user experience of checking a website needs to kind of the QA of your website needs to be be done with people with what product or service we like to call user testing. People with disabilities that are using system as you mentioned in the beginning of the call like Jaws, or that are allowing them to view website and actually see if though if the digital assets are actually working or actually providing them with access successively decided that it's that it's more it's going to work in a more holistic fashion is going to work on an educational spectrum. And that's part of the founders vision to make to help people learn more about the field. Well, people understand not just from a compliance standpoint, but how to create products and tools and services that are from the get go are accessible. In addition for everyone who needs to get up to par access will be provided for access to be now so the professional solutions department The Department where which I am part of the goal is to allow remediation of the rest of the digital assets that are part of your website and or part of your organization. If you are an enterprise who is who has files that are problematic for the for your workers that are supposed to read a remediated file, an accessible file, then perhaps you need that service. And I would ask you, Michael, when, when you tackle a PDF, when you tackle a file, what are due? Are there any challenges that are in front of you check in immediate file for having having you having a person unstoppable challenge, taking a child taking, taking on a file?
Michael Hingson 40:50
Well, sure, which is, of course, the whole point of now what we're talking about with access flow. But But yes, clearly, it depends on the PDF is like with everything, there's always the answer, it depends. There are many PDF documents that are not readable by a blind person with a screen reader. There's more to it than what Adobe does with its own internal optical character recognition to recognize the the information in the file. And sometimes that can be made to talk and give me the information that I want. And sometimes it can't. Likewise, with any website, sometimes, it verbalizes well, and many times, it doesn't verbalize extremely well, which means that I might be able to use the website, but it will take a lot of work to be able to use the website, or the website was constructed in a way that really makes it very usable for me without a lot of effort. Someone put it very well, when they once said that what blind people learn how to do is to muddle through and, and break their way through all of the barriers that exist on websites. So we can we can make them work. But a lot of times, it's very difficult to make them work or we have to spend so much time doing it that you wonder after a while if it's worth it. And that's of course, what excessive B is, is all about an excessive B, I think, excuse me excessively as someone recently said in a meeting I attended that excessive be in other companies like it, but I'm specifically focused on excessive be excessively has to customers. And it's something that excessively I think has learned over the past many months, that there are the customers who actually buy the service, that is the website owners and the website. Developers. And so it's the business community. But the other customer that accessibe B has, which is just as much and probably even more important for the company to consider is the end user. Because the end user is the the person or people who actually have to use the product that excessive B provides or products that excessive B provides. Right in excessively has has grown a great deal. And recognized that that second customer is extremely important in a way it does pay the bills, because the customers who use that site that uses accessibility and find it helpful are going to talk about it. And the community is pretty close knit. So the reality is it's important to to really focus on the the end user world as well and accessible has really started to do that which I think is incredibly good.
Gal Bareket 44:14
Oh, I agree. I agree help during bridging the gap with your end users, which they are the actual service recipient of the work that you're trying to accomplish. And getting their feedback is priceless, is priceless. And can can be a great tool for for progress for change. And you can see I think you can see it with the growth of this solution with the current growth with the with the current organic growth. And my emphasis on organic on this dissolution department because you get to understand why people come to accessory. I'll give you an example. There's a there is a product that is VPAT is about Voluntary Product Accessibility Template, that template is something that companies are now understand that they need to obtain in order because the companies that are exploring whether they would like to do business with them wants to know if they are on they are taking steps to become accessible. So, that the market which is it is fascinating because the market is doing the right formations to allow a to allow having the discourse of accessibility all around. And the service when when it when people come for excessively, right now, with an organic growth growth, to get the VPAT service, it allows us to understand that they that organizations right now are are taking an active role in trying to make sure that they are fixing and adapting and removing and removing all of the barriers for people with disabilities. So, they were allowed to enjoy surfing the web properly and kindly and comfortably, which is most important. So some so I repaired manual audit, media or mediation, follow mediation, these are these are these are names of just aspects of the worldwide web or the digital assets that exist to be understood that it that it would do whatever it takes a 360 effort to make sure that its community will have a way not just not just to get into the website, but also use it conveniently and being able to actually you know, scroll between everything read the materials and have have have an equilibrium or have Bring, bring everyone to the same level. So we can all enjoy similar content.
Michael Hingson 47:01
What is your role at accessibility? What is your job?
Gal Bareket 47:05
So my role as chief solutions officer, I run the Department of taking chief solutions officer and we have solutions and services under our umbrella. Some of the reason why we added this solution into the component is because accessories working on providing every service to their businesses in a seamless, seamless and convenient fashion. Like it did with the AI overlay interface. The the convenience allows businesses to first to rapidly adapt technology and and being willing to make a change for the better good. So one of the one of the elements of those solution in the solution part is where we automate getting a person from a website directly to our dashboard, allowing to facilitate the entire work and offload in a seamless and automated way backed by accessories AI power engine and provide a service back to the client now the service aspect comes into play where with our accessibility experts is this team is a team of trained individuals developers that are doing the manual labor and have in touch and making sure to go to dot the tee to cross the t's and dot the eye around every single part of the website that nothing will get the NO FLOW will remain untouched. So in comparison perhaps to previously where our emphasis was on the on the AI engine itself and on the on the widget while getting slowly requests for the other remediation services. Now we are continuing putting our effort the company continue putting its effort as you know, Miko on on the AI interface but simultaneously, it opened a full bridge to allow every service every accessibility service that is related to the World Wide Web to arrive in our into our door in our footsteps and allowing us to be able to remediate and fix and resolve the issue whether it's just to bring up to compliance but in most part in my department, it's to make sure that the user will get a friendly experience when they get into the website.
Michael Hingson 49:43
And so I get the impression from what you're saying that could involve the AI powered overlay. But it also could, could come about from other services that excessive B is or will be providing
Gal Bareket 49:58
100% and person that it should go over it. Now when I say person, there's two people that are that we offer as a company, we offer our own, actually the expert team that we trained in house Cree with our own syllabus and our and our own materials, and made them and brought them up to par with looking at isup and other organization to bring them perhaps even further down their proficiency route. So there's that sweet expert who goes through the work themselves that in our part, and are integral part of the service. In addition, there is an addition there's also the technological effort that is being happening around this scene, continuing making a robust system, that its AI capabilities will be able to do the majority of the job in order to flag the difficulties to the person A, that is testing it. Now, that is the first person the second thing that the second option of people that can test your website is a product or a service that we called user testing. User testing is essentially bringing in people with disabilities with their assistive technology devices, which Michael perhaps you want to share what is what is even assistive technology for some because I am saying the word because I love the words, because I learned it, you are living it firsthand?
Michael Hingson 51:33
Well, I think it's exactly what what it implies it's technologies that assist in making it possible for us to accomplish tasks. So in the case of the web, for blind people, it could be a screen reader or it could be access to a Braille display. But it is it is technology that allows us to interact with a computer to get the information that others obtain by looking at a screen. So the assistive technology. So the assistive technology is my, my lovely. Alexa decides to talk to me. So the assistive technology assists in helping to accomplish and perform tasks that we otherwise wouldn't be able to perform, because they're visual. And that is like reading a monitor. So even the Amazon Alexa can in some ways be assistive technology. But the the whole idea is that the technology helps us interact with our environment to accomplish the same tasks that you perform.
Gal Bareket 52:52
So that's exactly it. So our end users, that's exactly what they're doing, they're using their tools, where we'd very to be a screen reader, whether it will be just scrolling through the keyboard by itself and see that the website is navigable and allowing the company at the end to see whether the website is actually user friendly, where it's where with all this is a technology to leads you to share with the world not just from the compliance standpoint, not just from a legal standpoint peep I am opening my store for people with disabilities and everybody are willing and we are inclusive and you know, we're stopping no one in the door and everybody are welcome to enter.
Michael Hingson 53:36
So from a business standpoint, who and what companies are really the best opportunities for accessibility to help make the website more the website world more accessible.
Gal Bareket 53:51
So here we are talking about all types of companies, from small to big, from small medium mom and pop store, to a big giants such as even Adobe or or enterprises, whether public or private companies, governmental organizations, educational organizations can also be benefit tremendously from working with us the excessively what it did with those manual services, automated solution AI backed components and having additional offerings to bring to the industry. It able to open up a full array of opportunities that are that can come from various angles, and they're coming today we're seeing we're seeing group from groups of hotels that are reaching out to us and then a public company in In public company in the US, to a flood of public companies in Israel, we seeing various entities that are interested in understanding how can they now be better, and provide better service, whether it's on the worldwide web or even internal, within their own organizations to to, to, to get better in their hiring processes, to perform better in their internal training for employee adaptation, as many aspects as you will, as you will aware, to those services, and think that these are all being taken in under my department within that umbrella.
Michael Hingson 55:45
So there are companies that specialize in making websites more usable, accessible, or whatever, they have manual programmers that, that do that. And they bet a lot of expertise in it. Why accessibility over those or other companies like it
Gal Bareket 56:05
says A B is a company that is ready for scale. And is and that's something that is most important, how many website Michael, are currently on? resolved?
Michael Hingson 56:22
Well, I think the statistics that I think that we have found is over 98%.
Gal Bareket 56:28
So even more and say, 90%, of how many 100,000 100 million?
Michael Hingson 56:36
I would say we're talking in the billions at this point.
Gal Bareket 56:41
So it's very simple. How many?
Michael Hingson 56:47
A? Well, since we know since we know, for example, from our own studies that there are over 380 websites created every minute in the United States. And out of those, we're saying that roughly 2% are accessible. That's basically eight websites out of 390 every minute,
Gal Bareket 57:09
right? So I'm looking at the numbers, as I'm talking with you right now, I do want to make a mistake in the US does 103 33 million websites are in the millions, right. And there is other countries with other numbers. But the fact that we are, we are not even meeting the surface, it's it's where we need to aim next. And there's so much work to be done. So accessible, his ability to scale is not just a word for itself, it allows it it allows the company to serve many entities at the same time. Scaling, it's not this is not just tech scaling is operation, it means that if we need tomorrow to hire X amount of people, we have the processes in place, the infrastructure in place and the capacity to do so it means that the company as a whole is working, to grow and having a with the bandwidth to gain all everything in it. In addition, and it's something that our visionary CEO, and is able to create, he constantly create ways to simplify from a technological standpoint, the entire process of have of fixing a website or building a website. And that allows us as a company to have, whether it's internal proprietary tools to provide the job quicker. So I turn around or turnovers are much quicker than other than other companies. Because we are we are building internal tools to help us get to where we want to be. And, and you know what, this is a problem, a big problem, the more companies that are entering the domain, that are trying to make the world a better place, we all win. So instead of comparing between the companies, we are in a joint effort to make sure that the more and more companies would enroll together, that this 100 and that the 2% would be 98%. And then we can fight over the 2% together.
Michael Hingson 59:29
Yes, and and the reality is that none of the companies that are involved in this whole process of making websites usable are or should be the enemy of consumers. And I know you mentioned before, there's been a fair amount of heat that has been brought to bear on excessive B to I think, a greater degree than maybe some of the other companies but the heat It has been there. And there's probably been some justification. But there's also been a lot of misunderstanding. And I think that, and I've said it a couple of times, I think that what's most important is that we, as a community of persons with disabilities acknowledge the transformations that are taking place, excessively is not the company, both in messaging and an action that it was 10 months ago, it is different today. It is doing a lot more just doing different things. And I think that's extremely important for, for people to recognize the very fact that people like you are here, you mentioned, by the way that we are as a company, and I say we because I am the chief vision officer for accessibility. As listeners know, you mentioned that we look for people who can help with usability testing, and helping us to make the website more accessible. How can people explore doing that? Where would they go? Who would they contact? Or what would that process be? Do you know?
Gal Bareket 1:01:17
So again, parts of our CEOs vision is to and and our, and our, and our CEO, our chief marketing officer and our CRO is to be able to support the community. And the way that we currently understand the community gets supported is through the various umbrella organizations such as the NFB that you mentioned before and allowing and then working in collaboration with these organizations that are not necessarily in it because they did not I didn't see that they were providing it but organization that provide the tools that facilitate the onboarding and recruitment of these type of individuals that some have said that they disobey some of the individuals we are bringing into we are opening roles within the the US market within a the new the New York office for people for people with disabilities over a two we'll be able to have to work with it to work with people disabilities closely to allows us to have not just Sing Sing Sing saying the word inclusion, but also living living it firsthand. So what they can do is they can go to our website, and enter and reach out through various ways through our through our emails to the to the solution department. And we would love to have a conversation with with them with each with each individual, either direct them to the right local organization in their place, we can work with the umbrella organization or works directly with with them.
Michael Hingson 1:03:04
And I think that's important to to note that that there are ways that people can reach out so people can go to www dot accessibile. Calm, excessive B is spelled ACC e ss i b e.com. And as listeners of this podcast, no they can also reach out to me if they would like Michael M i ch AE L H AI at accessible calm. And I'm glad to help steer people to the right place or answer any other questions that that people have on the podcast. I think we're getting close to our time but is there any last thing that you would like to say or any point you'd like to make?
Gal Bareket 1:03:48
I enjoyed this conversation with you Michael immensely. I think that I would have are totally finished with accessibly is growing and changing as a company just maybe echoing the last thing you mentioned. In you know, in ways that I haven't seen any other company grow and I sit on I sit on various flow advisory roles or board roles in different companies. There is there is a sense of fulfillment waking up in the morning and coming to the company there is ongoing communication that is day by day becoming better and better with between the various departments are working as a right organism to provide service for the industry. There is an immense care for the community. It's what people are waking up for in the morning and are trying to see whether the community was happy today was dissatisfied too then how could the community feel better and feel? And there are main efforts that are being done to take care of that on day two? The basis, the company is also taking into consideration the business aspect and then working on providing additional services, additional solutions, providing additional automation enhancing and improving all the processes or older processes that can now become better and are now better. And we are open to whoever wishes to come in receives type of each one of those services to come to us to see how seamless how short it is than the regular and what there are expected to, and how we are keep evolving and growing as a company, for ever for for for both our end users and our customers, which is wonderful to see is wonderful to see. And be part of
Michael Hingson 1:05:52
the way I would also say that if any of our listeners, if you are a person with a website, and you want to see how accessible your website is, go to www dot accessable COMM And there you will see a link to something called ACE AC e which is the accessibility audit tool that you can run, plug in the name of your website. And you can get an audit that will show you how accessible your website is today, based on the guidelines and standards that exist in the world. And it will show you the things that you need to improve upon. So we'll give you a good idea. It's totally free. And if you want to work with accessibility, then the contact information is there to do that. To explore working with accessibility and letting accessibility help you make your website more usable. And for consumers. You can go and check any website as well with ace so we do invite you to do that as well. Well, Gal I really appreciate you being here. And we didn't talk about the fact that golf stands for wave like the wave in the ocean. You you said that? Typically Israeli names have have meanings other than to being just names or
Gal Bareket 1:07:16
Abraham Hebrew names Hebrew days, right. Right.
Michael Hingson 1:07:20
Now if I talk to enough people, I'll learn some Hebrew that way I guess.
Gal Bareket 1:07:25
For sure.
Michael Hingson 1:07:27
Well, I want to thank you again for being here with us. Go vericut. And definitely we will have to chat some more and, and compare some more stories. But thank you for being here on the unstoppable mindset. And I hope everyone will tune in next week. And of course, if you liked the show, please give us a five star review with your podcast host of choice or wherever you listen to podcasts. So thank you all for listening, and we'll see you next time
Michael Hingson 1:08:02
You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.
1 hr 10 min
October 27, 2021 Episode 5 – A Look Into the Past with Blind History Lady, Peggy Chong
Episode Notes
All too often we encounter people who we think cannot possibly do the same things we can do. Any of us who happen to be blind can tell you of the many times we are told that we cannot do something simply because we do not see or we cannot see well. The result of these beliefs held by many is that the unemployment rate among employable blind people, according to the U.S. Census, is nearly 70%. Did you know that this rate increased from 50% in 1910 to the 70% rate we see today? Did you know that by 1940 there were three blind people participating in the U.S. House of Representatives and two in the Senate?
In our episode today we meet Peggy Chong who is known as The Blind History Lady. Peggy tells us many stories of unstoppable blind people. She gives us a glimpse of life in the late 1800s and the first half of the 20th century and how blindness and blind people were treated. Her stories will surprise you and they will leave you wanting to know more.
Some directories do not show full show notes. For the complete transcription please visit https://michaelhingson.com/podcast
About our Guest:
Peggy Chong’s book in print, Don Mahoney: Television Star is on the shelves at many book sellers. She writes and lectures as The Blind History Lady. Her infatuation with stories she heard of those she now calls her “Blind Ancestors” surprised and inspired her to learn more, for herself at first and then bring their light to the world. Peggy researches their stories and brings to life the REAL struggles of what it was and is still, to be a blind person in the United States.
Peggy is a long-time researcher and Historical author of many articles on the blind in the United States. She has written for publications that include The Braille Monitor, Dialogue Magazine, Future Reflections, The Minnesota Bulletin and the Iowa History Journal.
Currently, she chairs the Preservation of Historical Documents for the National Federation of the Blind of Colorado, to save the single-source files, records, news clippings and correspondence of the blind of Colorado dating back to 1915.
https://theblindhistorylady.com/
Email: [email protected]
Book: https://amzn.to/30ZrjUh
About the Host:
Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.
Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com
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Transcription Notes:
Michael Hingson 00:00
Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast we're inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.

Michael Hingson 01:20
Welcome to another episode of The Unstoppable Mindset podcast. I'm your host, Mike Hingson. And we have today a person who I regard as a very special guest, and I hope you will as well. And besides that she's kind of fun. I want you to meet Peggy Chong, who is known by many as the blind history lady Peggy, welcome.

Peggy Chong 01:42
Well, thank you very much for having me on.

Michael Hingson 01:45
Well, we're glad you're here. So I want you to start if you would, by telling us just a little bit about you, things that you want people to know. And, and maybe things you don't want people to know. But go ahead and it's your turn.

Peggy Chong 02:00
Thank you very much. I work as the blind history lady, and it is what I am doing in my quote, retirement. I research and write stories about what I call our blind ancestors. I hated history in school. I didn't like writing in school. I did like researching. I did like that part. When I was growing up, I was involved in the blind community as a child. Because my mother was blind. She went to the North Dakota School for the Blind, and was very close to her classmates and those that she spent a lot of time with, during each year while she was at the school. Back when she went to the School for the Blind. It was located in Bathgate, North Dakota. And so she didn't get home. Most years except for Christmas, maybe sometimes at Easter. So she didn't see her family very much. Her school family was much closer to her in many ways. So I knew the blind piano tuners and the door to door salesman and the rug weavers and stuff growing up. When I got to be, oh, you know, like 20, you know, teenage years and stuff, when we all know everything and start losing it after that. I was rather embarrassed by them. Because I was starting to meet blind lawyers and blind businessmen, blind people who had nice homes and jobs and the blind people that I knew the old people who were probably only in their 50s younger than I am now. But they had a small trailer house, or a very small house. Not fancy. They had small apartments. I remember we visited one couple frequently and they had a basement apartment. It was very dark. They were both totally blind. And my dad was over six feet tall. So he always had to walk with his head down because bump on all the pipes and the beams in the basement. But they were fun people and I didn't appreciate them at the time. What I didn't understand back then is they were working people they were supporting themselves. They were trailblazers. They may have only been the blind drug Weaver or the blind door to door salesman in my mind, but they were the ones who made the path for the blind lawyers and the blind business people who have the nice offices. And so then back in the late 70s Because I was so familiar with the old guard as they were known. I was given the task of cleaning out all Old Files at the National Federation of the Blind of Minnesota's offices, because they said, you'll know these people, you'll recognize if there's something that's important to keep or not. The task was to keep all the basic important records, the minutes, the financials, any important correspondence and so on those records dated back to 1919. And every so often, I'd stop and read a little bit of this, read a little bit of that. And the more I read, the more I kept saving. And putting aside even though it was supposed to go in the trash pile, because it was interesting to me, especially when I started to read about our blind congressman, our blind congressman, was somebody I didn't know about who was this blind Congressman that they were visiting in the 1920s, to try and get them to support these legislation.

Peggy Chong 05:58
So I put it aside. And after I finished that task, I checked out who the blind Congressman was, and his name was Thomas David Shaw, who was a blind man from the Minneapolis St. Paul area. An attorney, who I always joke about went blind because of smoking. He was an attorney who was on a break in North Dakota courtroom, they had just in salt stalled this new electric cigarette lighter, and he liked new things. And he tried out the electric cigarette lighter, however, it shorted out and blew him across the room. And within a few weeks, he lost all of his vision. So he didn't think he could be a lawyer anymore. He spent a lot of money and trying to get his vision back. When he ran out of money. His friend said, Well, hey, why don't you come here and give a speech for me here. He was a great orator. And give a speech for me there. And pretty soon somebody said, Well, why don't you run for Congress. And he did. So he was elected to Congress, we had a blind congressman in 1914. He served until 1925, when he went over to the US Senate. And he stayed there until his death in 1935. His family were dead serious when I interviewed his family that Thomas Shaw had been killed, murdered by the, what they said was the mafia arm of the Democratic Party. And when you start to put all the evidence together, back from our time, looking back, they, they have a lot of circumstantial evidence that could have probably bought brought some charges against the driver of the vehicle, who ran him down just before Christmas. So because of Thomas's story, I got really interested in the stories of our blind ancestors, I have been collecting data ever since the 70s. And finally, then, in about 2014, or so my husband basically told me either get rid of that stuff, or do something with it, because it's crowding the den. So I did, I began to write for dialogue magazine, I wrote their history column for about six years, and have been getting articles in magazines if I can, and newspapers about the blind ancestors that I research and find them fascinating, because these are men and women who, in the 1800s, early 1900s, were making a living supporting families, vibrant parts of their community. And they didn't have the benefits that we have today as blind people. They didn't have many of them the luxury of a good education, although a lot of the people I do research were students at schools for the blind, but many of them who went blind in their 20s 30s 40s did not have that opportunity. There was no rehabilitation services for adults, they had to learn on their own. And in several cases, they had to learn more than one code because just like in the schools for the blind, English may come in American Braille. But the science was in New York point, and maybe some of the classes for History or English or whatever, had novels that they were to read in moon type or a raised printing of some sort. So these men and women, especially the ones I research, I admire because, without rehabilitate without any financial support without any classes, they taught themselves alternative techniques for reading and writing, keeping their accounts relearning how to do their farming, how to raise their animals, how to run their stores, how to be a lawyer, everything, and I admire them for the things that they do. So I try to dig down deep, interviewing as many of the descendants as I can, or finding any of the records they've left behind to tell their story of the encouragement that they can provide our history can provide is, I think, very valuable today. The old adage, when we were in school, you know, if you don't learn your history, you're destined to repeat it. That's very true with blindness as well. I don't think we have sometimes as blind people as much ingenuity, or get up and go because we haven't hit rock bottom like many of them did.

Michael Hingson 11:09
Well, I think it's definitely true that the world has changed. And I think you're right. We some of us haven't hit rock bottom, like they did. But I wonder if they viewed it as rock bottom, or how they viewed their lives at the time, because what they did was, they did move on. And I wonder if they just viewed it as kind of a challenge to just keep moving forward, something that we don't do as much today, in part because we have a lot of the conveniences and other things that maybe they didn't have access to?

Peggy Chong 11:51
Well, I think there's a lot of truth to that. The one of the things that I have really learned over all of this research, and I did a lot of genealogical research for my own personal family, which is where, which is how I decided that I was going to approach this as they were my ancestors. And through that genealogical research, I took many classes and seminars on how to interpret what you were reading, how to interpret what was going on at the time, which basically meant, if you don't understand what's going on at the time, you can't understand why your family did what they did. And with our blind ancestors, it's the same thing. Some of them did hit rock bottom, in that they realized, for example, at the Iowa home for the blind, which was a short lived, it was supposed to be an industrial home where you could go to as an adult person who had gone blind, hopefully learn a trade find a place to live. The staff were paid. Like $20 a month, plus they had room and board where the blind folks were to pay two to $4 a month for their room and board work in the shop, which didn't provide them with a lot of hours many times. And so the people who went to that home ended up owing money to the state by the time they were able to break free. And there were advertisements in the newspapers from Knoxville, Iowa, which is where the home was, and the counties where these people were going back to because at that time, the counties would say, well, we're not responsible for this person because they came from your county, even though they've been in our county five years. That's where their home is. And they don't, they don't fall underneath our charitable giving, or our plans for handing out any kind of pension or compensation. So there would be ads in the paper, you please send shoes or a shirt or money for train fare for this person to return to your county, or please donate money so that John Smith's family can get them back from Knoxville on the train. There were blind people who I have researched, who would choose to go to jail and commit a crime a small crime usually to go to jail when it was cold, so that they didn't have to go to the poor farm because poor farms were actually more dangerous in many areas than actually going to jail. Those are the types of people that made decisions that they were hitting rock bottom, but then you've got a lot of these others where things around them were four things around them were difficult. The farmers were experiencing crop loss, drought flooding, or they didn't have the supplies. So there was a big flu epidemic or what have you. And they were in the same boat as the rest of the community. And they struggled to get out of that predicament just as much as the rest of the community, or at the same level. So it kind of depended on the mindset of the people the timing, whether or not they felt they hit rock bottom or not. If you got money from the city, you would have to petition to the city council or in some cases, the county, it was all in the public minutes, it was printed in the paper. And there would be a column about how much money was spent each month for individuals. And you would have so and so's name and then it would be blind on the other side, so and so's name and it would be old age, so and so's name and another reason for them to collect money. And you had to go back time and time again. Three months maybe would be all you would get at a time. And you would look at the disparaging, you would look at the the monies that people were getting. And it would be kind of interesting, if a man who was a soldier in the Civil War, or the First World War would probably get more money, then a blind soldier would probably get a little more money, then the blind widow raising four kids. Why? I don't know. I don't know the thinking at the time. But once those things were put in the paper, your family was maybe shun that church, somebody would say when you went into this store, Oh, I see you're not supporting your blind kid or your blind mother. Shame on you. So people chose to do anything rather than shame their family, or they would move away from their family to another community. And not have a lot to do with their family so that their family wouldn't be embarrassed, but also so that they could get money from a county to find a small place to live.

Michael Hingson 17:27
What I'm curious just to change the subject a little bit, what did you do for your day job before you retired?

Peggy Chong 17:35
Well, I've kind of done it all. I wanted to be a librarian. And I worked after high school as a librarian before I was going to go to college. But then I got married and had a kid, you know, did the usual Mom Stuff it did daycare for a while, that kind of thing. When my daughter was in high school, I did customer service. And you'll learn a lot of patience when working customer service. But I and I've had several positions. Over the years I've worked for blind industries and services of Maryland. And the National Federation of the Blind in their job opportunities for the blind program for several years, ran the Newsline program for the blind, the national program for several years. But for me, one of the things that is been a consistency in my life has been my involvement in the blind community. And, you know, do all the membership type things, raise money, and so on. But one of the things that was an accomplishment that I feel proud of is I was part of a group of people that established blind, blind incorporated blindness learning in new dimensions in Minnesota, and helped with a lot of the the foundation grants, finding the locations, finding staff, finding staff when we didn't have any money to pay the staff, substituting for staff when we didn't have staff who could perform the necessary jobs we needed to do. You know, one of the things that we did in building blinding Incorporated was we drew on the experiences of so many blind people, not just the ones that were you know, getting ready to retire, but the ones from that when they were in their 80s, who would tell us about what it was like in the 20s what they had to do, and how to travel because their information that they gave us, inspired us with so many ideas at how to be innovative. They had a lot of well, we didn't have this so we improvise And because BLIND Incorporated had so little money, we need a lot of in prevent, improvising, and learned from their strategies and learn from their techniques and how they made a lot out of nothing. And it gave us a lot of techniques then also to pass on to other people we brought in those people was the student body built up, we brought in those people to give seminars, talk about what it was like, going through their struggles, losing their sight as adults in the 30s, in the 40s, when there was nothing, and hopefully, help them appreciate what they were doing at that time, not focus on how sad life was, how hard life was, but how they should be grateful this is all they have to go through and not having to learn new york point, and Braille and Moon type in order to read the books that they wanted, they only had to learn one alternative form of reading.

Michael Hingson 21:14
And we should probably explain that New York type, Moon type or New York point, Moon type, and so on are different forms of raised characters that into themselves have interesting origins. Although Braille is the the main technique that we use for reading,

Peggy Chong 21:33
there were different forms of Braille with the country. There was your basic ABC Braille, there was that and we called that grade one Braille, there was grade one and a half, which my mother used. And there was grade to Braille, which is what I learned, they have different short form words, different contractions. If you were reading grade one Braille, depending on where you lived, you had either a lot of access to grade one Braille, or you have little access to grade one Braille, what made the difference was where you were being taught that if you were taught at some of the schools for the blind, who had a lot of building, they had room for all the grade one Braille. The grade one and a half Braille did not take up as much space. And several printing houses did that some of the schools printed their own material, and they would do it grade one and a half. Then when there was this decision as to what would be the written language for the United States for the blind, decided that it would be that and it would be the American grade two Braille because there was English Braille, which I always found kind of fun to read, because it had different punctuation formats, and I get tied up in that New York point was something my mother had learned New York point. New York point was only two dots high, but four dots long. And had its own set of symbols were Braille is only three dots high, and two dots across. So it only has six dots, New York point had eight dots, Moon type, it always just looked to me like somebody dropped stuff on a page and then thermal form.

Michael Hingson 23:43
Yeah, Moon type is, I read once that moon type was kind of a hybrid form of printing characters created by someone who thought that these were different enough that they could be felt and read. But Moontide never caught on like Braille. And rightly so although I, I personally did get a couple of books and Moon type and had a little bit of fun learning to sort of read them but never could get to the point of reading quickly.

Peggy Chong 24:15
No, and that was the problem with the typist, you very few people ever got to read it quickly. And they thought that the Mon type would be a lot easier for older people to read, because the dots were too close together for especially people with arthritis and that kind of stuff as you get older. But it just not just really didn't catch on and raised character printing. That was early form of a reading method for the Blind in this country. used a lot in the east coast where this early schools for the blind started but Again, it took up a lot of space. And just was not fast to read. And so when people started adopting Braille that was being taught in Europe, that made a big difference in how fast people could read. Now I find it find fun and interesting to note that the Ohio School for the Blind was, I believe, the very first state sponsored School for the Blind, all the rest were private schools or private public schools or something, but it wasn't like we think of a State School for the Blind. Today, Ohio was was one of the first. And they taught several methods of reading. But what they spent a lot of time on was teaching the blind kids, young people to handwrite. And the reason they did that is because they told them, This is the business language of the United States. This is the business language of the sighted. And if you cannot compete in the sight of community, with the written word, you won't compete in business. This is how you're going to have to send out your bills. Now we're talking 1848 1850 1860, and so on. And they would spend, I saw one schedule where they actually spent two to three hours a day, working on handwriting, and many of the graduates from the 50s. And 60s in the 70s were really competent hand writers, they could write out many of their diaries, their Ledger's, their letters to their clients letters to their family, their friends, they corresponded with suppliers. And they did it all by hand with not with a secretary or interpreter, but by themselves. So then in the late 1870s, or so that they were going to spend more time on Braille and the alumni was all upset, because they said, Now wait a minute, these guys, they're not going to be able to compete, you take away the written language of the United States from them, they're not going to be able to compete equally with their sighted peers. And I thought, I found that very interesting to watch the changes that were going through different parts of the country. And of course, the invention of the typewriter, which is an intervention for blind people. People don't always realize that once the typewriter came into vogue, well, then teaching typing than it was, this is what you do to compete in the sight of community. As you learn to type, you learn to communicate with the sighted through a typewriter. And that took the place then of teaching handwriting, handwriting, several schools did teach handwriting, but Ohio was probably the most successful at it. Many of the others just kind of dabbled in it, they could learn to write a little bit. But not how to track the lines, how to make it look like a really well formatted printed letter. Just mostly for notes and things like that. The other schools focused on the handwriting. You

Michael Hingson 28:29
mentioned something really interesting. Tell me a little bit more about the typewriter being invented for blind people.

Peggy Chong 28:35
The New York Times article that I learned all this from it and checked it out, came out probably in the late 80s, early 90s. And talked about this Countess, who was blind and she had a lover, evidently the count wasn't as attentive as he should have been. And she wanted to communicate back and forth. With her lover, he would send her letters, and her ladies in waiting would read them. And then she would have one of her ladies in waiting, write the letters out and send them to him. Well, the ladies in waiting would, you know rat her out to the count. So they had to find other ways of communicating. And her lover put together this typewriter that resembles sort of what we use today and gave it to her as a gift. And she was then he taught her how to use it and she was then able to write to him privately so that they could sort of you know, keep in contact the letters from her. Her lover could have sort of their little secret messages in it then only she knew and so on. And so that's how that all got started. The New York School for the Blind in Batavia adopted it really early on and had several of their Students working for typewriter companies. In fact, some of the high school students during the summer would work for a typewriter company traveling around many states going to the state fairs and demonstrating this new typewriter for the blind. And of course, it caught on in business, which was really great. Meaning that typewriters were more accessible all over the place for everyone caught on everywhere. And so it fascinates me now. And I always have to remind people that a typewriter was an invention for blind people. When people tell me Oh, it's too difficult to learn to keyboard. I learned to type in kindergarten, that was what you had to do when you went to the to the site saving classes, you had to learn to type that was, if you didn't know about type by the end of first grade boy, that you know, you spent a lot of time during the summer with your teacher. Well, I

Michael Hingson 30:55
like to type at home. But then I also took a typing course, in summer school one year between seventh and eighth grade I think it was. And I remember being in a class with a number of people we all had typewriters, of course, to the to work on. And people complain because the keys weren't labeled, which is something that I hadn't even thought about. You know, it didn't bother me that the keys weren't labeled, but they were complaining and the teacher had to explain what yeah, they're not labeled, because you need to learn where they are. That's what touch typing is all about. It is amazing what we complain about sometimes.

Peggy Chong 31:38
It truly is. The keys on the typewriter. When I took typing in ninth grade, it was mandatory to take typing in ninth grade. They were not labeled. And boy, everybody was really upset about that. But by that time I I knew touch typing so. So that class was great for me,

Michael Hingson 31:58
and to cross people up a lot more. My father had a typewriter that he brought back from Germany in World War Two. He said it actually came from one of Hitler's offices. And he took it apart and packed it in boxes and send it home. And when he got home, he put it back together. What was interesting was it undetermined typewriter, the Z and the Y were reversed. Because Z was apparently a more common character. So that was a little bit hard to get used to once I learned to type and started using a regular typewriter remembering that on his typewriter, the Z and the Y were reversed. And it was a noisy clunker thing, but it sure worked well.

Peggy Chong 32:42
Make it really difficult writing a letter to somebody Mr. Saba rusty.

Michael Hingson 32:46
Yeah, exactly.

Peggy Chong 32:50
He was paged when I was at the airport the other day. But yeah, that's it. And they were very, you fingers were very strong, because those old typewriters should push hard down. Oh,

Michael Hingson 33:01
you did? You did. I remember Occasionally, when we had tests in school, I got a portable typewriter. My parents bought us one. And I would carry it to school so that I could type answers. The tests were in Braille one specifically, test I recall was in eighth grade, you had to take a test here in California on the Constitution before you could graduate. And so the test was in Braille, it was transcribed by Mrs. Hershberger, who was our resource teacher. But they couldn't have someone sitting next to me to have me dictate answers. Because we were in a classroom and there was no other space. Well, and of course, the logical thing was typed the answers. So I was in the classroom, and we the typewriter was pretty quiet, but I would type all of the answers and then turned it in. And it worked really well under the circumstances. It's amazing how resourceful we can be.

Peggy Chong 34:01
My typewriter in class had to sit on foam. And mine was not a portable, mine was wheeled in on this cart. And it sat on a piece of foam, which deaden the sound some. Yeah. But still, it was, you know, I'm doing the typing in the class while the rest of the kids are all writing in their handwriting. My handwriting was really bad.

Michael Hingson 34:29
Nine as well. But I but I tell everyone, when I sign a document, well, the bank always accepts our checks, although now we don't even do much with checks anymore. Well, I'm curious. How do you think attitudes toward blind people have changed throughout the years? I mean, you've obviously got a good perspective on what history was like for blind people. And you've talked about a number of people who have been able to accomplish that, but how have attitudes changed? aged either way,

Peggy Chong 35:02
you know it for blind women is changed dramatically in that blind women, the options for a blind woman if you didn't marry was taking care of somebody if you had enough skill. Otherwise you were sort of you know that great aunt who lived in the backroom. You were taught handiwork so that you could always do the mending be useful at home. Blind women did a lot of fancy work, mending, because they weren't straining their eyes. A blind woman could work a lot longer at doing the mending, because they didn't need the light. After that, your opportunities were as a woman to become a teacher at a school for the blind. And that was about it. Music Teacher maybe teach piano at home. You didn't go out, went blind women didn't use a cane. But then sighted women didn't go out if you were a sighted woman and you were out at after dark by yourself. Boy, you were gossiped about at church? That's for doggone Sure. So what was the need for teaching a blind woman to travel, she wasn't going to go out on her own anyway. And if she was, if there was another sighted woman who needed to go out will take the blind woman with you, she needs a little air anyway. And then you could go out and take care of business as well. So for blind women, the expectations have changed so much. Not just becoming a homemaker. Boy, if I can just marry this blind daughter, haha, that'd be crazy. But you could go to school, you didn't have to just finish a lot of the girls who went to school, you look at the school for the blinds rosters, and you'll see girls there for four or five, six years, then they're going home to help cook on the family farm or take care of the sewing raise the younger children. They didn't graduate at anywhere near the same rate as the blind men blind boys did. Then when they got to be more accepted as teachers and so on in the schools for the blind that some of them became public school teachers, especially in the frontier areas, where if you, you couldn't get a lot of people to get out go out there. Some of the blind women especially through from Iowa, the blind college graduate, they were called the college for the blind at that time, because you went through 12 years of schooling, and most people only went through eight. So you know, the they call the School for the Blind in Iowa, the college for the blind. So the graduates from there, offered to go to North Dakota and South Dakota, and teach in some of the public schools and because until it became more populated, more things have opened up. Now, a blind woman has the same expectations can have the same aspirations as a blind man going to school, whatever the career they choose, and so on. For the Blind guys. You know, again, it kind of depended on where you grew up. If you came from a farming poor family, where you were land rich, but you know, the bank account didn't have a lot of money. Everyone was expected to pull their weight and the families adapted and found a job for the blind person to do and they would do it well. Some of those blind people became excellent plow drivers with their horses. Fixed machinery, did the hauling in the gardens took care of the animals in the barns. Skills that would also trade in jobs that were in town or they could then hire out to a neighbor. The some communities didn't expect a lot from their blind, relative, they'd send them to the schools for the blind and hoping that they'd find them something to do out east Perkins for many, many years. Music was the big thing at Perkins. They will be a music teacher. They will be orchestra director. They'll work at a church as the music director. And many of them did find successful careers in that. If you were out in Montana, for example.

Peggy Chong 39:49
The blind kids that went to the Montana School for the Blind for the first 20 years. They helped literally build the school, the fences, the barns care for the animals raised the animals that would be Sunday's meal, the vegetables, the, the, that were canned for the winter meals and so on. They made the furniture, they made the mattresses. So they took those skills, went back home and turn them into businesses, one of the graduates of the Montana School for the Blind. His parents had passed away, he lived with a sister, who was a teacher, but not that much older than he was, she didn't know how to raise a blind kid send him to the Montana School for the Blind during the years where the school didn't even have any heat, where they lived in two rooms of the nice building that had been built for them, but there was no heat in the building. So during that time, he learned to chop the firewood, he built the fence rails. He learned how to repair and build furniture. So when he decided to be a piano tuner, he took some classes in piano tuning, which was not a big class yet in Montana. But what he did learn was how to do the carpentry work for repairing the pianos. And he did that very well in the rescue picked up, which is kind of the opposite for some of the schools for the blind, because they focused on the piano tuning itself and telling the kids who were taking the piano tuning or the young men, well, you know, it's really hard to do the carpentry work on it, you'll never get the staining, right. So don't even bother where he learned to do all of that at the Montana School for the Blind, and he ended up becoming the owner and manager of several movie theaters. And he would get these small movie theaters, and he would do all of the repair work and building up the stage. And he even learned electrical. And he would build up the movie theaters and go on and sell that one, buy another one and had a very, very, he had one of the nicest movie theaters in a medium sized town in Oregon, when he passed away.

Michael Hingson 42:04
Well, the the thing that really is fascinating is that you're talking about a significant number of relatively speaking blind people who were successful in one way or another. But if you were to really contrast societal attitudes about what it means to be blind, then and now what what would you say? would you contrast them? Do you think that they're significantly different today? Are they the same? Are they worse? You know, how have we really changed as a as a race toward blindness?

Peggy Chong 42:43
I think in many ways, we have stepped back as society from including others, we talk about inclusion a lot. And talk about being a part of an invite people who are different blind people, particularly we're talking about now, but not always really including them as participants. Where I think my opinion is that back in 1880 1890, if a blind person proved themselves, they were accepted and expected to carry the weight. And they were more a part of the community, because they were far more isolated from other blind people than they are today. That doesn't mean that all of the people were like that you still have the schools for the blind where you had the clusters. But today, the kids who grew up in the public school systems do not have the same support, family blind support family that the kids did back then I believe that there's more contact with blind people or that you have the opportunity for more contact with blind people today than you did 110 110 years ago, 100 years ago. So it's kind of, I think, not as easy as it was back then. Because there was a whole different mindset in the communities that everybody pulls their weight. And I use, for example, is the blind people that were in politics back then, that were serving on the city council's as mayors as county commissioners, school boards. You don't hear very much and I find very little about that today. But back then, well, for example, there was a gentleman in South Carolina, John Swearengen, who Born after the Civil War, but still, South Carolina was still in reconstruction. And there were public schools home taught so on, finally was sent to the school for the blind for a couple of years, wanted to go to college. The college didn't want him until his uncle said, Well, if you're not taking my nephew, then I'm not going to give you any more financial support. Since they were financially large contributors. The school gave him but says no, absolutely no accommodation for this kid. And that means even bothering other students to walk him to class. So he used a man's walking stick a cane, to go to and from classes. So he graduates he wants to teach, the only place he can teach is the School for the Blind. His friends from college encouraged him when the State Superintendent of Education position came up, that he should run. Nobody took him seriously. But he won. Now he couldn't teach in the state of South Carolina. But he oversaw all the public schools, including the colleges and the trade trade schools in South Carolina. And he did that for 20. Some years. But you see many of these people who wanted to make a difference in the community, a teacher from the School for the Blind in Iowa, he wanted sidewalks and a paved alley and ran for the City Council. And he got that for his area of the of the city, but also left a big imprint on the city because he got involved in bringing a new bank to the city and so on. You don't see that kind of involvement. And is that because things are far bigger now. And blind people just don't get into the the cog that runs the huge wheel, where the towns and communities far more oriented towards people because they were smaller back then? I think there's some of that to be looked at as well. But we have not had a blind congressman, in our country since 1940. We have not had a blind US Senator since the 1930s. Why is that? We have five blind Congressman's up until 1940. We had two blind US Senators before that. And yet we've had nothing since I look at how many blind men and women have served in state legislatures over the years.

Peggy Chong 47:40
And there was one point in time when we had well over 25 plus to 30 blind men and women serving in different states is different state legislatures. Now, there's probably enough we could count on one hand, and we don't have that kind of interaction with our our laws, our government bodies, anymore, that I think that makes a big difference as how we are seen, by our states, we are not part of fee process of creating new opportunities. We are part of the wanting our handout, I believe that we are looked at in many ways. More than we used to, even though we don't have the begging that we use to the blind beggars all over the place. We sort of become the population that go to the state to get on this for this project and friends for that project. So it's very different than it was I think it actually if you were a blind person who had gumption if you were a blind person who tried even though you would failed more than once and kept trying, I think you had the ability for more opportunities. And I say that also because in 1910, the US census was taken that year, and one of the focuses was to find out exactly how many blind people there were in the United States and what they were doing, because there was talk of creating pensions for the blind. And what would that cost the country? What would that cost the states if we were to do something like that? So if a surveyor was out, taking down all the information, and found a blind person, they got a little extra in their pay envelope. So the incentive was there to find the people, even if they didn't self identify as a blind person, but to find those people and say yes, this person is blind enough where they don't do things the same way as other people. In that step senses, more than 60% of the blind people found, were self supporting. That meant that they weren't on any kind of charity, they weren't being supported by a family member. They weren't be supported by a county or a city. They weren't in a industrial home for blind people. And what most of them were doing was farm labor. There were not as many piano tuners as a lot of people think they were farming was the biggest occupation. And now we have a close to 70% unemployment rate for blind people. And many of those people are on some kind of public assistance. And that's just another indication that people were given an opportunity to do what they could do, and paid for it. Now, they didn't have the same living conditions that we like to think about today, some of these people, especially the farm laborers, were living in the hayloft, or in an outbuilding on a farm, they might be living in the city running a broom shop out of somebody's garage and living in that broom shop. Met in Minnesota, several of them had their own music stores, and they lived in the backroom of their music store that was their home and their business. So not the same living conditions, but they were self supporting. So I look at that. And I have to wonder if you were out there wanting to find a job if you were really trying, not in every community, but in many communities, were you given a chance to do that. And I think that we were given a chance back then, more often than not given a chance. Now people are worried about being sued. If they say the wrong thing, or if the person gets hurt, are they going to get an insurance claim that they don't want, there wasn't any of that back then. And maybe we had better chances if you were willing to get out there and, you know, work twice as hard to get half as far in many cases. But if you were willing to do that, you had an opportunity to get up there to get a job working in the back of someone's store, delivering goods for a business, working as a furniture mover.

Peggy Chong 52:42
Whatever it was a women another story again, because times had not changed for women. But for men, they had a lot more opportunities and were self supporting, not needing to go to the church for funding that meeting to go to the county.

Michael Hingson 52:59
It's interesting, though, that through all of that, today, we think of blind people may be tuning pianos and so on. But still, more often than not. We think of blind people begging back in the day, as it were. And we don't hear a lot about all of the other kinds of things that blind people did. We we are molding, if you will, and attitude about blindness, which although there was begging certainly. And not only blind people begged but But still, there was a lot of begging, but we're molding and trying to pit blind people into a pigeon hole that isn't necessarily totally accurate.

Peggy Chong 53:49
One of the things that is difficult and tracking some of the blind people is that if they didn't self identify as blind, and many did not. How do you know I mean, I have found relatives of the blind ancestors that I'm researching who had no idea that their relative was blind did made me prove it to them, that their relative was blind. And they were doing jobs like newspaper editors that they worked on the railroads. How can How could have Uncle John been blind if he had 1000 acres of land? And it's because they if they couldn't believe that a blind person could do it, they just talked about him as a person. Yeah. The articles in the newspapers if the blind person is doing something that is newsworthy. But if you bring in the blindness, it doesn't sound like you're really writing about the person. They didn't bring in the blindness and some papers did have a policy not to talk about a person's what we would call today a disability, but they would call it many other other things. And so it would be hard to track some of them that way, especially when you've got somebody who's got a common link name. You know, for example, I took genealogy classes on how to determine whether the Johann Schmidt, and I've got a few of them in my family is the Johann Schmidt you're looking for, and it was kind of fun to learn how to do that, and how to track and find the right person. And make sure you got all the right kids names, or who did that if we lived next door to them, when you knew they that that was your relative of the person you were targeting. So when I start to look at these blind people and look at who they lived with, who their neighbors were, did they follow them along what was their kids names, so that you can track them back when they are not identified as a blind person, especially when they went blind later in life, because people tried to hide that. They didn't want people to know they were having difficulty. They didn't want to burden others with their problems. They just kept on working. They just kept on running the farm. They just kept on delivering the milk, they just kept on doing what needed to be done.

Michael Hingson 56:33
I'm curious. So as a person who has grown up blind and also very active in the National Federation of the Blind, which is you and I know is the largest organization of blind people in the United States, and it's a very active social action organization. The Federation was started by Dr. Jacobus, Tim Brooke. But Dr. Temper Ik had his beginnings at the California School for the Blind. Tell me about Newell Perry. And if you know much about Dr. Perry, who was a mathematician who was blind, and who taught at the school and taught Dr. timbre.

Peggy Chong 57:13
Neil Perry is a really fascinating guy, because he taught at the school for the blind, because he felt it was important to teach blind, blind kids, he could have taught other places. Especially he could have taught mathematics as a professor. It would have been hard for him not because of the teaching aspect, but because of be getting into the schools and being accepted as a blind mathematician. But one of the things he did for a lot of kids and we're talking, you know, back in the 1920s. Kids came to the Colorado School of the Colorado I'm sorry, the California School for the Blind from a lot of different states. And dual Perry taught them how to think he taught them how to do math in their heads. He taught them how to think out of the box. And what he did was he were he there was a group of young men in California known as his Paris boys. But he taught a lot of people that went on to other states, for example, a young man went back to Hawaii in he there was no School for the Blind in Hawaii when his parents who were missionaries had this blind child and wanted an education for their blind child. So they sent him California, he came back and went to the University of Hawaii there and that young man didn't quite always get what Perry was trying to teach him. His became a little hard nosed for a while, but he went back to California and did understand later on about I you know, you've got to, you got to get out there. You've got to keep moving. Neil Perry, used a cane. Some of the earlier people who used a cane before what we consider the birth of the white cane in this country. And October is white cane awareness month, April, October 15 was white cane Awareness Day. And but no Perry taught the kids to move, get out there to run to play to climb the trees to play on the play equipment to play ball to run basis and taught them to move. And because sometimes, the young man I'm talking about in a why because Perry didn't always do that on the school grounds. It was his home. Perry lived there, taught there, went to school there. He considered at home and didn't always carry his cane but He did when He went out and his students followed his his example because he was there example. Yes, he was teaching at the school for the blind, but they knew he could do other things. And he was out in the community, advocating for other people to get the college. He was advocating for his students to get into colleges across Colorado, California, and other states, but primarily California. And he did it by example. So that the universities saw, hey, this guy, yeah, he could probably be a professor here. Yeah, well let it one of his his students and so on. He was, by example, the teacher who encouraged self confidence, who encouraged a philosophy of getting out there and trying exerting yourself taking chances falling down. The kids on the playground, when they were at the school for the blind, they fell down, they got hurt, they bumped stuff. And they learned to avoid it. They learned how to listen, they learned how to judge distance by their hearing. They learned many, many skills by playing those games, that unfortunately, that young man from Hawaii took a long time to learn. But that kind of a teacher doesn't just teach you how to do your math, how to think in your head, how to solve problems, for financial, for constructing a cabinet or carpentry, but how to think out of the box for your life. His students became travelling insurance men, they became state senators, they became attorneys, they became teachers, they became bike repairman, they became electricians. Later on, they became musicians. And not just playing in the clubs, although some of them did a really good job of doing that. But they, they became radio musicians who made records who had a following who, because of their music, were able to buy nice houses and send their kids to college. And some of his students became novelists. They didn't just go home and sit, they didn't just take a job at the sheltered shop, they didn't just become a piano tuner, although some of them who did that were very successful. But they did their job, and were a part of their community. And so that I think, when Jacobus 10, Brooke found founded the Federation, that was a spirit that he brought with, he brought that spirit that we need to be a part of the community. And the white cane law, one of the first things it says is that it encourages blind people. The model white cane law that he established with others in 1966 says that blind people are encouraged to be an active part in the community. And I think that is a real major part of the philosophy of the National Federation of the Blind, is that we need to be out in the community we need to be doing for others, because when we're doing for others we're doing for ourselves, we are feeling better about ourselves, we gain more confidence, more assured. And when you are more assured, you look more assured, you look like somebody that should be respected, that should be listened to not just somebody that should be cared for. And that was the philosophy of the Federation in 1940, is that we don't want a handout we want a hand up.

Michael Hingson 1:03:49
It's always interesting. It's interesting that regular listeners of this podcast, know something about Dr. Tim Brooke because one of our episodes was based on and we just played Dr. Tim Brooks 1956 banquet speech within the grace of God, which has always been one of my favorite speeches. And to learn a little bit more about him and to see where he came from, because he went through his own challenges at UC Berkeley, although he got a bachelor's degree, they would let him go on into dealing with the law, which is what his interest was. And he had to get around that.

Peggy Chong 1:04:34
At Berkeley was a big hub for many blind students from the 20s on up that attracted blind students and and Newell Perry had a lot to do with that. Yeah. And Berkeley was far more open to blind students than any other college in California at the time.

Michael Hingson 1:04:56
Oh, yes, and NSA It's just so sad in so many ways that attitudes and ideas about blindness haven't progressed and in some ways have really slipped. Two more questions, and then we'll have to wrap up, we've captured you enough for today. But I'd love to do this again and, and continue. But what's the most interesting person in your mind that you know about from from a historical standpoint, from the standpoint of a person who is blind? What's the most fascinating story that you tell?

Peggy Chong 1:05:38
Wow, you know, a lot of times that just depends on the person I'm researching. Because I, I find, I can go through a lot of names. And you have, we have left in many ways, a very small footprint, as blind people. And in many ways, we've left some really big shoes to fill. And I'll go through, you know, 150 200 names before I'll find somebody I can write a short story on. But like I said, Thomas, David Shaw, he was my first blind ancestor, if you will. And I do find him very fascinating because he reinvented himself all the time, and researching him. different branches of his family, know very different stories that don't always fit.

Michael Hingson 1:06:39
Isn't that interesting,

Peggy Chong 1:06:41
and I just loved him because he was a man who he got married, he had this law firm. Some people would probably call him an ambulance chaser. It was amazing how he had a lot of the same witnesses that witnessed a lot of this different accidents that happened around the city of Minneapolis. He made a lot of money as the sighted guy. And then when he went blind, they spent almost all of their money had to move into a small apartment. So when he was stony broke, that's when he decided to get into politics. And he didn't get into the blindness stuff until he had been there about 678 years when he got a police dog, before runner of the police dogs that were trained for seeing I. But he got one of the first police dogs that was trained for the First World War veterans that was brought over by a friend. And Lux was his name. Lux had quite a following. He did dog commercials and all kinds of stuff. But Lux couldn't ride in the train car, and he was going back and forth to DC on the train all the time. And Lux couldn't go with him unless he went into the baggage car. And so he tried to get an exemption for locks. But he thought, you know, I can't be the only blind guy who's got a problem with this dog guides were not what we think of as dog guides today. But blind people did travel with dogs, that they had trained themselves. As a blind man, he found that every place he went, he had to sort of educate people and didn't understand why some people just have no concept about needing a reader getting around, he got a page to help him then he gets involved with the blind folks. And he sees no reason why there shouldn't be a National Rehabilitation Program for the blind, that there should be a program for all blind people not just the blind in war veterans, because we had a program for several years after the First World War in Maryland. Evergreen, it was called that did a really great job and it was about a two year program that after about six years that program went away pretty much and that was the the floorplan that they were using for this new rehabilitation program. Now he found a lot of blind guys that were really interested in and this was some of the letters I was reading back many years ago and then when I went Who is this blind guy but he found that the agencies for the blind and the American Foundation for the Blind so well you know, gee Mr. shawls really nice guy but He just doesn't understand blindness. Now, you didn't tell that to Thomas shawls face, by the way, because he told you what, four. And you walked away going? I'm sorry, sir. Yes, sir. But they worked around him. And I found that really rather sad that they kind of said, well, you know, he just doesn't have the education and blindness that we do. We have these studies, and not all blind people can be trained. And so let's, let's look at it from a different perspective, and delayed, in many ways, 10 years legislation for blind people. But Shaw also decided, you know, if you guys are blind guys are going to fight all the time, I've got better fish to fry. And so after a couple of years, he moved on, and really didn't pay much more than lip service to blind people. After that point. He was nominated for an award, back in the 30s, of which I still am hoping to get the information for, but he didn't get it. And the reason according to one, what one letter that I found, is that, well, the American Foundation for the Blind respects Mr. shawls opinions and all but it really wasn't appropriate at that time, and probably killed off him receiving this national award in 1933.

Peggy Chong 1:11:35
But he still, even though he didn't give a lot of lip service to the legislation, he still was out there fighting for what he truly believed. And, you know, when he believes something in his heart, he went whole hog at it. He didn't like the New Deal. But he was very supportive some of Roosevelt's other programs, and he would fight vehemently against the New Deal. And then he'd be right out there, supporting the president of the opposite party. On the other platforms that he did agree with them on, he did a lot of public speaking, a lot of traveling. And he believed that the best way for him to be a good servant to the state of Minnesota, was to get out there and meet everybody. And he did that. And so he's traveling all over rural Minnesota, sometimes he would have his boys in the Summer Go with him. And talking about politics, not about blindness. But about what was important to people, what was the problems they had on the farm, what was the problem they were having in small towns, and he would do these videos, like he loved to shoot. And he still continued to do that, after he lost his sight. And what they did is they set up in the backyard of his house, this big Gong, and his sons would take this big stick with the, you know, pat it in and hit the gong. And his dad would shoot up the gown, the the boys would get the gong, and they would shoot up the gong. And he hit that gong, right the center many times. I was watching that with someone who said those boys afraid that, you know, the dads are gonna shoot him as well, you know, William Tell son survive and heal and nap on his head. So, but he showed himself as a part of the farmers as a part of those small town guys who were going hunting he showed them, he does the same things. He understands them at their level. And I admired that, that he could be that kind of a person, I'm not sure he would have been a lawyer I would have wanted from, you know, my attorney. But on the other hand, I admired him for being someone who recognized what was going on with people. And he took the chance who stood up and said, This is what I believe. This is what I'm going to fight for. And he was the one that stood at the front of the line, not the one that was back in the office. But if there was frontline issues. He was out there at the demonstrations. He was out there at the rallies. He was out there to be seen as a supporter.

Michael Hingson 1:14:29
You know, we call this the unstoppable mindset because that's what it is. People can be unstoppable. If they truly emotionally adopt a mindset that says we can do what we choose, we can do what we what we feel in our heart is the right thing to do. And talking about Mr. Shaw, you're certainly demonstrating that

Peggy Chong 1:14:58
some of these people want I read some of the articles where they're interviewed. And the interviewer will say, Well, what made you think that a blind person could ride a bicycle to their piano tuning job? So what made you think that a blind person could build furnitures and open them music store? And many times they say, well, nobody told me I couldn't.

Michael Hingson 1:15:22
Yeah, exactly right. And that's something that I've experienced, and I'm sure you've experienced Why, what makes you think you could do that? Well, why not? Last question for today. And like I said, I would love to continue this in the future. But as, as we live in our world today, what's the thing that you're most concerned about, or most afraid of?

Peggy Chong 1:15:51
The education of the literacy of people who are blind is really very disturbing. And the technology that is separating us from the sighted world, you know, I see these young kids, smart kids. And they are only being taught how to use a, an expensive Braille display, not a computer. They're taught how to use expensive equipment for the blind, that the schools purchase, which they don't have access to in the summer. And they do really great on them. But they can't write or format, a decent Word file, to send out a letter of inquiry for a job, or to volunteer at a summer camp as a teenager. Many of them are really far behind. They're graduating from college, and they can't write a resume. It's to me, that is something that blind people fought very hard for is the ability to get a decent education, to read and write. And we have made it's I think, in some ways, so specialized, that we forgotten that the point is to teach people to be literate, and that we aren't expecting literacy from our young people. They don't have their hands on a book. There's an I think that sighted people will agree with this, too, is that there's something about reading a holding the book in your hand. Yep, it's great to read stuff on the computer. And people really love their necks and everything. But every once in a while, you just want to hold that book in your hand, there's something different about that. But these kids don't have that they don't, they don't have an opportunity to read a braille book that much. And many of them don't even get to

Michael Hingson 1:18:05
learn to read Braille.

Peggy Chong 1:18:07
No. And that computer's gonna do it all for you. Yeah, and the computer breaks down. And they are stuck there, braille display goes out, it takes three months for it to be repaired, and they don't have a replacement. And they fall farther and farther behind. And they are not taught how to use a human reader. The skills are just not there. And when I think of these kids, who went to the School for the Blind, and not kids, because they would take kids like they took people like 20, up to 25 years old, some of the schools for the blind. And within the first semester, you had to learn two to three different reading formats in order to compete for your grade that year. And yet, we are not teaching blind kids how to read and write in braille effectively or efficiently, even after six years in school.

Michael Hingson 1:19:03
Yeah. Well, as I said, I'd love to continue this and I hope that you will come back. I love to talk. Oh, good. Well, then we'll we're gonna do this again. But how can people learn about you? How can they reach out to you?

Peggy Chong 1:19:19
I have a lot of things going on. I have a website. It's www the blind history lady.com that's all one word. The blind history lady. Somebody was called me as a joke. The blind history lady when I was talking about some stuff I knew and they and you know, when it came time in about 2013 2014 to decide what I was going to do as I just picked that up, stuck it stuck. I have you can contact me by my email address, which is the blind history [email protected] I have a monthly email that I send to my my subscribers and You don't have to pay me any money to do that. That's fine. I will put you on my email list and tell you a story. Like, I've got one that I'm working on right now about the Negro magazine. Did you know about the Negro magazine in Braille? No. Well, you'll have to catch up on my one of my stories early next year about the Negro magazine on the list you are. So get on my email list. I do public speaking, you can find my rates on my website. I'd be glad to talk to you about that about blind history. And I have a book that has just come out, you get it on Amazon. It's about Don Mahoney television star, a blind guy who hid his blindness for 10 years from the studios in Texas, because they he was afraid his show would be canceled his kitty show. By the time he had to come out as a blind person, if you will. He had a following. There was no way they would, they were gonna cancel him. He was a money maker. And he and I tell how he did that, how he just was him how he was done Mahoney, and how he grew up in a family of blind people that they just didn't realize they were really blind. Yeah, they didn't see so good. But you know, kind of like my grandfather, he wasn't blind anymore. He just didn't see Yeah. Using that b word, but you can contact me that way. Order my book online, at Amazon, or your other Barnes and Noble wherever.

Michael Hingson 1:21:40
And we will put all this up on our web page, and it will be on the podcast page. And I hope people will give us a five star rating. This has been a fascinating interview, but it's been a fascinating hour to spend with you. And Peggy Chong, I certainly want to do this again, and we will do it soon. That sounds great. You certainly are as unstoppable as anybody else.

Peggy Chong 1:22:08
Someday I'm gonna be rich and famous because of this. There may go, I might be 194. But I will be rich and famous because of all of this.

Michael Hingson 1:22:18
Well, and I hope we help to make that happen.

Peggy Chong 1:22:22
Very good.

Michael Hingson 1:22:22
Thank you very much for being with us on the unstoppable mindset podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet.

Michael Hingson 1:22:35
You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.
1 hr 25 min
October 20, 2021 Episode 4 – Within The Grace of God – Featuring Dr. Jacobus tenBroek
Episode Notes
Dr. Jacobus tenBroek is not well known to most of us. However, among the ranks of blind people he is known as the founder of the National Federation of the Blind, a deep thinker and the creator of the most progressive philosophy about blindness seen by humanity. In every way you can imagine, he was unstoppable throughout his life. Over his lifetime he had many opportunities to choose more famous paths, but every time he was offered positions such as becoming a candidate for the U.S. Senate from California, he stuck to his commitment to teach and enhance the lives of students at UC Berkley. Even more important, he wanted to work at his first love, growing the National Federation of the Blind and grounding it in a philosophy that said that “the blind have the right to live in the world”.
Perhaps his most memorable speech was delivered at the national convention of the National Federation of the Blind in San Francisco in 1956. This talk was entitled “Within The Grace Of God”. I offer it here to help you not only think differently about blindness as you may now perceive it, but I present it to show you an unstoppable man in action.
Some directories do not show full show notes. For the complete transcription please visit https://michaelhingson.com/podcast
About Dr. Jacobus tenBroek
Dr. tenBroek was both a national and international leader of the blind civil rights movement. After founding the NFB (National Federation of the Blind) in 1940, he was its president until his resignation in 1961. He was re-elected president in 1966 and remained in that office until his death in 1968. Dr. tenBroek was also president of the American Brotherhood for the Blind, an education and charitable foundation now known as the American Action Fund for Blind Children and Adults, from 1945 until his death. On the international front, in 1964 Dr. tenBroek co-founded the International Federation of the Blind, now known as the World Blind Union, and served as its president until his death. Dr. tenBroek was also a delegate to the World Council for the Welfare of the Blind.
As president of the NFB Dr. tenBroek directed efforts to require sheltered workshops to pay workers a minimum wage, reform the Social Security Act to provide full disability insurance benefits to blind people, and force the United States Civil Service Commission to certify qualified blind people as eligible for civil service jobs.
Bio taken from The National Federation of the Blind website. See the full bio at https://nfb.org//sites/default/files/images/nfb/publications/bm/bm06/bm0605/bm060503.htm
About the Host:
Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.
Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.
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Transcription Notes
Michael Hingson 00:00
Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast we're inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.
Michael Hingson 01:21
Welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Thanks for being with us. This week, I want to feature a speech that has become one of my favorites. This is not a speech that I gave, but rather it was delivered by the founder of the National Federation of the Blind, Dr. Jacobus tenBroek. Dr. tenBroek, as you will see in the biography that accompanies this show, was a constitutional law scholar. He didn't start out that way. However, he was interested in the law and went to the University of California at Berkeley where he obtained as I recall a degree in psychology and then wanted to go on and do an advanced degree and get a doctorate in jurisprudence and the law. Berkeley professors told him that that was not something that a blind person can do. And so he was forced to take a PhD in psychology instead, Dr. tenBroek, then went on to teach at Berkeley, and while there he was invited to chair the speech department. Well, Dr. tenBroek, in his inimitable way, said that he was willing to do so. But that he wanted to chair it his way which they agreed to do the professors and establishment at Berkeley, when Dr. tenBroek took over the department, one of the things that he did was to announce to the campus to all the professors that he was inviting them to join the department. But if they were going to be part of his department, they needed to enter into studying a discipline other than what their normal discipline of study was. So for example, physicists began to study biology, which became very relevant after world war two to deal with nuclear medicine and so on. And biologists, by the way, studied physics and chemistry and other sciences for the same reason. And there were a lot of other professors that took on disciplines outside their normal field of study. What do you think the Dr. tenBroek did? That's right, he decided that he was going to study constitutional law, and became one of the foremost constitutional law scholars in the 1940s and 50s. And into the 60s, well, he continued to work with and participate actively in the National Federation of the Blind as its president, and a very active member, the speech that you're going to hear now is, I believe, the speech that summarizes best not only his feelings about the philosophy of blindness, but I believe that it is really the foundation stone, the cornerstone of the philosophy of many blind people then and now, and I hope that you will see that it is a philosophy that you should adopt as well. Rather than explaining it. I'm going to let you hear Dr. tenBroek, delivering his speech at the National Convention of the National Federation of the Blind. In 1956, the speech entitled within the grace of God.
Dr. Jacobus tenBroek 04:29
It is a privilege of a very special order, and one to which I have long looked forward to address you here tonight in the unique and wonderful city of San Francisco. We're all of us who are native Californians, which means that you all know that we moved here at least six months ago from Iowa or Oklahoma. This occasion marks the fulfillment of a cherished ambition. We feel something of the pardonable pride of hosts, who know that their hospitality has been as graciously accepted as it has been warmly given. But there is something else that is special about the present location. our city and our state are blessed this year of grace with not one but two history making convention, each of which is appearing on the local stage for the first time, our own and that of the Republican Party.
Dr. Jacobus tenBroek 05:48
There can be no question. I can be no question of course, which is the more important than far reaching in its consequences. But let us admit that the Republicans to have an objective of some scope.
Dr. Jacobus tenBroek 06:15
During our regular convention sessions today, we have had a fairly full review of the work of the National Federation of the Blind. We have seen the accelerated growth of the organization marked by the expression of nine state affiliates in the years since our last national convention. Lifting us from a beginning of seven states in 1940. Do a grand total of 42 states today and with a clear view of affiliates in 48. states in the foreseeable future.
Dr. Jacobus tenBroek 07:00
We have seen an organization with purposes as irrepressible as the aspiration of men to be free, with far flung activities and accomplishments with a solid adherence and participation of rank and file members. And with the selfless devotion of an ever increasing array of able and distinguished leaders. We have seen the action and the forces of action. We have also seen the reaction and the forces of reaction. There is perhaps no stronger testimony to our developing prestige and influence as the nationwide movement and organization of the blind. Then the scope and intensity of the attacks upon us. These attacks are not new, they have resisted from the very beginning. They have ranged from unspeakable whispering campaigns against the character and integrity of the leaders of the Federation to public disparagement of its goals and structure. Now however, the attacks have taken on a new bitterness and a new violence. They include open vowels as you heard today, I have a determination to wipe several of our affiliates out of existence and every step possible has been taken to bring about this result. Now, whence come these attacks? What is the motivation behind them? Are they personal? Are they institutional? are they based on policy differences as to ns as well as mean? What is the pattern of action and reaction for the future? Is such conflict unavoidable? To what degree is reconciliation possible? It is to an analysis of these problems. And to an answer to these questions that I should like to direct your attention tonight. Let me begin by giving you a purely hypothetical and very fanciful situation. Imagine that somewhere in the world, there exists a civilization in which the people without hair that is the bald are looked down upon and rigidly set apart from everyone else by virtue of their distinguishing physical characteristic. If you can accept this fantasy for a moment, it is clear that at least two kinds of organizations would come into being dedicated to serve the interests of these unfortunate folk. First, I suggest that there would appear a group of non bald persons drawn together out of sympathy for the sorry condition of this rejected minority In short, a benevolent society with a charitable purpose and a protective role. At first, all of the members of this society would be volunteers doing the work on their free time and out of the goodness of their heart. Later, paid employees would be added who would earn their livelihood out of the work and who would gradually assume a position of dominance. This society would, I believe, have the field pretty much to itself for a rather long time. In the course of years, it would doubtless virtually eliminate cruel and unusual punishment of the ball, furnish them many services, and finally create enclaves and retreats within which the hairless might escape the embarrassing contact with normal society. And even find a measure of satisfaction and spiritual reward in the performance of simple tasks, not seriously competitive with the ordinary pursuits of the larger community. The consequence of this good work would, I'd venture to say, be a regular flow of contributions by the community and acceptance by the community of the charitable foundation as the authentic interpreter of the needs of those unfortunate and inarticulate souls afflicted with baldness,
Dr. Jacobus tenBroek 11:30
and increasing veneration for the charitable foundation and a general endorsement of its principles and gradually, but irresistibly the growth of a humanitarian awareness that the balls suffer their condition through no fault of their own, and accordingly, they should be sponsored, protected, tolerated, and permitted to practice under suitable supervision and control of course, what what few uncomplicated trades patient training may reveal them able to perform.
Dr. Jacobus tenBroek 12:11
Eventually, a great number of charitable organizations would be established in the field of work for the ball. They are some of them would join together in a common Association, which might well be entitled the American Association for workers for the ball,
Dr. Jacobus tenBroek 12:41
step by step upon the published proceedings of their annual meetings, carefully edited to eliminate the views of the outspoken bald, they would aspire to climb to professional status. As a part of their self Assigned Roles of interpreters and protectors of the bald. They are some of them would sooner or later undertake to lay down criteria and standards for all service programs for the bald to be a manual of guidance for those responsible for operating such programs. These then, would be the assumptions and the ends to which the charitable organizations for the ball would tirelessly and successfully exert themselves. They would petition the community through both public and private enterprise to support these purposes. And their appeals would dramatize them through a subtle invocation of the sympathetic and compassionate traits of human nature. Sooner or later, some of them in order to drive competitors out of business, it will be sad, or to garner favor with the public and to give color of legitimacy to their own methods. What issue what they would unabashedly call a code of fundraising ethics.
Dr. Jacobus tenBroek 14:08
All this presumably would take much time. But before too many generations had passed. I expect that most, if not all of these objectives would have come to fruition, and there would appear to be an end to the problems of the ball. Unfortunately, however, there seem always to be those who persist in questioning established institutions and revered tradition. And then my improbable fable. At some point well along in the story, there would appear a small band of irascible individuals, a little group of willful men bent on exposing and tearing down the whole laborious and impressive structure of humanitarianism and progress. Incredibly and ironically, these malcontents with emerged from the very ranks of the balls themselves.
Dr. Jacobus tenBroek 15:12
At first, I suspect that they would pass on heard and almost unnoticed, but eventually their numbers would increase in their discontent become too insistent to be easily ignored. What they would be saying as I make it out, would be something like this. Quote, you have said that we are different because we are ball and that is that this difference marks us as inferior. But we do not agree with certain biblical parable that possession of hair is an index of strength. Certainly not that it is a measure of either virtue or ability or into your prejudice and perhaps to your guilt because you do not like to look upon us. You have barred us from the normal affairs of the community, and shunned others aside, as if we were pariahs. But we carry no contagion and present no danger except as you define our condition as unclean and make up our physical defect the stigma in your misguided benevolence you have taken us off the streets and provided shelters, where we might avoid the peerless gaze of the non ball, and the embarrassment of their contact. But what we wish chiefly, is to be back on the streets with access to all the avenues of ordinary commerce and activity. We do not want your pity, since there is no need or occasion for it. And it is not we who suffer embarrassment and company with those whom we deem our fellows and are equal. You have been kind to us. And if we were animals, we should perhaps be content with that. But our road to hell has been paved with your good intentions.
Dr. Jacobus tenBroek 17:13
One of the leaders of the ball, probably a college professor, doubtless who would rise to say quote, we do not want compassion, we want understanding, we do not want tolerance, we want acceptance, we do not want charity, we want opportunity. We do not want dependency, we want independence and interdependence, you have given us much, but you have withheld more, you have withheld those values which we prize above all well, exactly as you do. Personal Liberty, dignity, privacy, opportunity, and most of all, equality. But if it is not in your power, or consistent with your premises, to see these things as our goals, be assured that it is within our power and consistent with ourselves knowledge to demand them and to press for their attainment.
Dr. Jacobus tenBroek 18:30
Or we know by heart experience what you do not know or have not wish to recognize that given the opportunity, we are your equal. And as a group, we are no better and no worse than you being in fact a random sample of yourselves. We are your doubles whether the yardstick be intellectual, or physical or psychological or occupational. Our goals in short, are the we wish to be liberated, not out of society, but into it. We covet independence, not in order to be distinct, but in order to be equal. We are aware that these goals like the humane objectives you have labored so long to accomplish will require much time and effort and wisdom to bring into being but the painful truth must be proclaimed. That your purposes are not our purposes. We do not share our cherished assumptions, your cherished assumptions of the nature of baldness, and will not endure the handicap which you have placed upon it.
Dr. Jacobus tenBroek 19:45
And so we have formed our own organization in order to speak for ourselves from the experience which we alone have known and can interpret. We bear no malice and seek no favors beyond the right and the opportunity to do Join society as equal partners and members in good standing of the great enterprise of our nation and our common cause. And the quotation and the fable. Is this fable simply a fanciful story? Or is it a parable? Some will say, I have no doubt that I have not presented the case of the blind, that there is no parallel and therefore no Powerball, for one thing, is not surely ridiculous to imagine that any civilized society could so boldly misinterpret the character of those who are not blessed with hair on their head. It may be, but civilized society has always so misinterpreted the character of those who lack sight in their eyes.
Dr. Jacobus tenBroek 21:14
On a basis of that misinterpretation, civilized society has created the handicap of blindness. You and I know that blind people are simply people who cannot see, society believes that they are people shoring up the capacity to live normal, useful, productive lives. And that belief has largely tended to make them so for another thing, did the fable accurately portray the attitudes of at least some of the agencies for the blind? Are their goals really so different from the goals of the blind themselves? Do they actually arrogate to themselves the rules of interpreter and protector, ascribing to their clients characteristics of abnormality and dependency? To answer these questions, and to demonstrate the bona fides of the parable, I shall let some agency leaders speak for themselves in the form of seven recent quotations quotation number one other the by an agency psychiatrist. Quote, all visible deformities require special study. blindness is a visible deformity. And all blind persons follow a pattern of dependency, close quote. That one hardly requires any elucidation to make its meaning plain. quotation number two, authored by the author of a well known volume upon the blind, for which the American Association of workers for the blind conferred upon him a well known award. Quote, with many persons, there was an expectation that in the establishment of the early schools, that the blind in general would thereby be rendered capable of running their own support. A view that even at the present is shared in some quarters. It would have been much better if such a hope had never been entertained, or if it had existed in a greatly modified form. A limited acquaintance of a practical nature with the blind as a whole and their capabilities, as usually been sufficient to demonstrate the weakness of this conception, close quote. That one also speaks adequately for itself. quotation number three, uttered by a well known blind agency head quote, after he is once trained and placed, the average disabled person can fend for himself. In the case of the blind, however, it has been found necessary to set up a special State service agency, which will supply them not only rehabilitation training, but other services for the rest of their lives. The agencies keep in constant contact with them as long as they live, close quote. So the blind are unique among the handicapped in that no matter how well adjusted, trained and placed, they require lifelong supervision by the agencies. quotation number four, authored by another well known blind agency head, quote, the operation of the vending Stan program, we feel necessitates maintaining a close control by the federal government through the licensing agency with respect to both the equipment and stock as well as the actual supervision of the operation of each individual stand. It is therefore our belief that the program would fail. If the blind Stan managers were permitted to operate without control, close quote. This is, of course, just the specific application of the general doctrine of the incompetence of the blind expressed in the previous quotation. Blind businessmen are incapable of operating an independent business, the agencies must supervise and control the stock the equipment and the business operation itself.
Dr. Jacobus tenBroek 25:49
quotation number five, first sentence of the code of ethics so called of the American Association of workers for the blind, quote, the operations of all agencies for the blind, in tail a a high degree of responsibility, because of the element of public trusteeship, and protection of the blind, involved in services to the blind, close quote. The use of the word protection makes it plain that the trusteeship here referred to is of the same kind as that existing under the United Nations trusteeship Council, that is, custody and control of underprivileged backward and dependent peoples. quotation number six, honored by still another blind agency had, quote, to dance and sing to play an Act to swim ball and roller skate, to work creatively in clay, wood, aluminum or tin, to make dresses to join in group readings or discussions, to have entertainments and parties to engage in many other activities of one's choice. This is to fill the life of anyone with the things that make life worth living, close quote. Are these the things that make life worth living for you? The benevolent keeper of an asylum is the only man who could have made this remark.
Dr. Jacobus tenBroek 27:30
Only a person who views blindness as a tragedy, which can be somewhat mitigated by little touches of kindness and service to help pass the idle hours, but which cannot be overcome. Some of these things may be suitable accessories to a life well filled with other things with Branson's home a job and the rights and responsibilities of citizenship. quotation number seven. And this will top all the others uttered by still another head of a blind agency, quote, a job a home and the right to be a citizen. A job a home and the right to be a citizen, will come to the blind in that generation. When each and every blind person is a living advertisement of his ability and capacity to accept the privileges and responsibilities of citizenship. Then we professional will have no problem of interpretation, because the blind will no longer need us to speak for them. And we, like primitive segregation will die away as an instrument which society will include only in its historical record, close quote, a job a home and the right to be a citizen, are not now either the possessions or the rights of the blind. They will only come to the blind in a future generation a generation Moreover, which will never come to the sighted since it is one in which each and every blind person will live up to some golden rule far beyond the human potential. And that never to be expected age, the leaders of the agencies for the blind will no longer discharge their present function of interpretation, because the blind will then be able to speak for themselves. Whatever else can be said about these quotations, no one can say that the agency leaders lack candor.
Dr. Jacobus tenBroek 29:53
They have stated their views with the utmost explicit them. Moreover, these are not isolated instances of a disappearing attitude, a best digital remainder of a forgotten era. Such expressions are not confined to those here quoted, many other statements of the same force and character could be produced. And the evidence that the deed has been suited to the word is abundant at long last, we now know that we must finally lay at rest the pious platitudes and the hopeful conjecture that the blind themselves and the agencies for the blind are really all working towards the same objectives and differ only as a means for achieving them.
Dr. Jacobus tenBroek 30:48
I Would that it were so we are not in agreement as to objectives. Although it must also be said that we frequently disagree as to means the frankly of our purposes and the practices of the agencies tend in the direction of continued segregation along vocational and other lines of blind would move vigorously in the direction of increasing integration of orienting counseling and training the blind towards competitive occupations and placing them there in toward a job, a home and a normal community activity and relationship. The agencies by their words and their acts, tend to sanctify and reinforce those semi conscious stereotypes and prejudicial attitudes, which have always plagued the condition of the physically disabled and the socially deprived. We buy our words and acts would weaken these attitudes and gradually block them out altogether. Their statements assert and their operations presuppose a need for continuous hovering surveillance of the sightless in recreation and occupation in congregation, virtually from cradle to grave. we deny that any such need exists, and refuse the premise of necessary dependency and incompetence on which it is based. Their philosophy derives from and still reflects the philanthropic outlook and ethical uplift of those friendly visitors of a previous century, who self appointed mission was to guide their less fortunate neighbors to personal salvation. through a combination of material charity and moral edification. We believe that the problems of the blind are at least as much social as personal, and that a broad frontal attack on public misconceptions and existing program arrangements for the blind, is best calculated to achieve desirable results. We believe, moreover, that it is worthwhile inquiring into the rationale of any activity, which takes as its psychological premise, the double Bell dogma that those derived deprive the side also deprived of judgment and common sense and that therefore, what they need above all else, is to be adjusted to their inferior station through the Why is administration's of an elite core of neurosis free custodians.
Dr. Jacobus tenBroek 33:39
The agency leaders say and apparently believe that the blind or not are not entitled to the privileges and responsibilities of citizenship, or to full membership in society be token by such attributes of normal life, as a home and a job. This can only be predicated on the proposition that the blind are not only abnormal and inferior, but that they are so abnormal and inferior that they are not even person. We believe that blind people are precisely as normal as other people are being in fact, they cross section of the rest of the community in every respect, except that they cannot see. But when it's not so, their abnormality could not strip them of their existence as persons. The Constitution of the United States declares that all persons born in the United States are naturalized are citizens. There is nothing in the constitution or in the glossary on it, which I have ever been able to find which says that this section shall not apply to persons who are blind.
Dr. Jacobus tenBroek 34:59
If they Born in the United States are naturalized whether before or after blindness. Apparently, blind persons are citizens of the United States now and are now not merely in some future generation possessed have the right to be citizens and share the privileges immunities and responsibilities of that status. Moreover, the bounty of the Constitution extends to all persons, whether citizens or not, rights to freedom, equality and individuality, as citizen fan or as person who happened to be deprived of one of their physical senses. We claim under the broad protection of the Constitution, a right to life, personal freedom, personal security, right to marry and rare children to maintain a home. And the right so far as government can assure to that fair opportunity to earn a livelihood, which will make these other rights possible insignificant. We have the right freely to choose our fields of endeavor unhindered by arbitrary artificial or manmade impediments. All limitations on our opportunity, all restrictions on US based on irrelevant considerations of physical disability, are in conflict with our constitutional right of equality and must be removed. Our access to the main streams of community life, aspirations and achievements of each of us are to be limited only by the skills, energy, talents and abilities we individually bring to the opportunities equally open to all Americans. Finally, we claim as our birthright as our constitutional guarantee, and as our in the best and as an investable aspect of our nature, the fundamental human right of self expression, the right to speak for ourselves, individually and collectively. Am separably inseparably connected with this right is the right of common Association.
Dr. Jacobus tenBroek 37:43
The principle of self organization means self guidance and self control. You say that the blind can should and do lead the blind is only to say that they are their own counselors that they stand on their own feet, in the control of their own lives, and the responsibility for their own programs, and the organized and consistent pursuit of objectives of their own choosing. And these alone lies the hope of the blind for economic independence, social integration, and emotional security. You may think that what I have said so far exaggerates the error and the danger to be expected from those whose only interest is to serve the welfare of the blind. I think it is not, no one could add. It is true for any more conscientious and devoted public servants than those who serve in the rank and file of the agencies for the blind, public and private. The leaders of many agencies to must be given commendation for enlightened policies and worthwhile program. We have heard some of those agency leaders yesterday at our convention, we'll hear some more before I convention is over. No one can doubt either, that the agency is when so man then so lad, may be of immense and constructive assistance in a multitude of ways during the onward movement of the blind into full membership in society.
Dr. Jacobus tenBroek 39:26
As to some of the agencies not headed by leaders of the character just described. Credit, I am told must be given for sincerity and good intention. This however, but serves to raise the question whether in social terms, sincere and upright, folly is better or worse than knavery. This discussion I forbear to ampere what should the posture of the National Federation of the Blind be Amidst these attacks and struggle, as the possessors of power, we must exercise it responsibly impersonally and with self restraint as a people's movement, we cannot allow others to deflect us from our course. We must apply our power and influence to achieve our legitimate goal. Do this and we must all exert ourselves to the absolute utmost.
Dr. Jacobus tenBroek 40:42
Our opponents have history and outmoded concepts on their side, we have democracy and the future on our for the sake of those who are now blind, and for those who who are after will be blind, and for the sake of society itself, we cannot fail. If the National Federation of the Blind continues to be representative in its character, democratic in its procedures, open in its purposes, and loyal in its commitment. so long that is, as the face of the blind does not become blind faith, we have nothing to fear no cause for apology and only achievement to look forward to. We may we may carry our program to the public with confidence and conviction, choosing the means of our expression with proper care but without calculation, and appearing before the jury of all our peers, not as salesman, but as spokesman, not as hucksters. But as petitioners for simple justice, and the redress of unmerited grievances, we will have no need to substitute the advertisement for the article itself, nor to prefer a dramatic act to an undramatic fact, if this is group pressure, it is group pressure in the right direction. If this involves playing politics, it is a game as old as democracy with the stakes as high as human aspiration. In the in the 16th century, john Bradford made a famous remark, which has ever since been held up to us as a model of Christian humility and correct charity. And what you saw reflected in the agency quotations I have presented seeing a beggar in his rags groping along a wall through a flash of lightning and a stormy night, Bradford set but for the grace of God, there go I compassion was shown. Pity was shown charity was shown humility was shown, or was even an acknowledgment that the relative positions of the two persons could and might have been switched. Yet despite the compassion despite the pity, despite the charity despite the humility, how insufferably arrogant there was still an unbridgeable gulf between Bradford and the beggar. They were not one but two, whatever it might have been, Bradford taught himself Bradford and the beggar a beggar one high, the other low one why's, the other misguided, one strong the other week, one virtuous the other day prayer, we do not, and we cannot take the Bradford approach. It is not just that beggary is the badge of our past, and is still all too often the presence symbol of social attitudes towards us, although it must be admitted that that is at least part of it. But in the broader sense, we are that beggar and he is each of us. We are made in the same image. And out of the same ingredients. We have the same weaknesses and strengths, the same feeling, emotions and drive. And we are the product of the same social, economic and other environmental forces. How much more consistent with the facts of individual and social life are much more a part of a true humanity to say instead they're within the grace of God.
Michael Hingson 44:51
i think that it would be fair to say that any civil rights organization or any kind of social action organization is started by some One with a vision of visionary. Dr. tenBroek, certainly in the case of blind people was a visionary in so many ways, he set the tone not only for the organization, but for an emerging philosophy about blindness, and an emerging desire on the part of many blind people to be more and be allowed to be more than they were. I think that Dr. tenBroek's speech, as I said earlier, sets the cornerstone for that philosophy. blindness isn't the problem. The problem is our own perceptions of what blind people are, what blind people can do, and what blind people will themselves do. It isn't all just up to sighted people to say, well, we really do buy into the fact that blindness is not a really severe disability in the sense of, of not allowing you to do what you want. But blind people have to buy into that as well. And many people do. It's a process however, we need to include blind and other persons with disabilities in the conversation, and we need to raise the level of the conversation, not only intellectually, but we need to internalize it in our own minds, and really accept the fact that there are people in this world who are different than we are, and that there is no reason to be afraid of them no matter what the reason for their difference. I hope you enjoyed the speech. We'll do some others from the National Federation of the Blind and other kinds of presentations as this podcast series go along. I hope that you liked it, as I said, and that you'll come back again next week and in the future for unstoppable mindset.
Michael Hingson 46:56
You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.
49 min
October 08, 2021 Episode 3 – Mike Hingson Gets Grilled
Since September 11, 2001, Michael Hingson has experienced several life-changing events. From returning to California and a six and a half year tenure as the public face of Guide Dogs for the Blind while traveling the world as a public speaker to helping introduce new technologies to people who happen to be blind. In this podcast episode, Michelle Abraham, herself a podcast host on the AmplifYou podcast discusses in-depth Mike’s philosophy about blindness and how he is working to educate the “non-disabled world” about the truths of blindness, not the myths most people accept. You will learn also about Mike Hingson’s new endeavor to help others learn how to control their fears when unexpected life changes confront them.
Some directories do not show full show notes. For the complete transcription please visit: https://michaelhingson.com/podcast
About the Host:
Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.
Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.
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Transcription Notes:
Michael Hingson 00:00
Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast we're inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.
Michael Hingson 01:20
Welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. We're going to take a little bit different approach today. Usually I introduce the podcast, and then deliver some remarks or provide a speech that I have given or interview someone. But today, Michelle Abraham from amplify you podcast is going to interview me, we're going to talk about my philosophy of blindness, we're going to talk about some of the things that have happened, of course, a little bit about the World Trade Center, kind of how I got there, but also what's happened since. And you're going to hear about some of the products that I've introduced along the way to help blind people, not products that I've developed so much as products that I've helped bring to the market because of my extensive sales and sales management background. And you're going to hear just what all is going on now why we have unstoppable mindset where it came from. You're going to learn about excessive be the company for which I am now the chief vision officer excessively is a company that has a full suite of products that help create websites that are much more usable and accessible to persons with a variety of disabilities. So let's get right into the interview. And then we will come back a little bit later and talk about it just a bit.
Michelle Abraham 02:48
Hello and welcome everyone. Today I am joined by a New York Times bestselling author and international speaker Michael Hanson. Hi, Michael, how are you doing today?
Michael Hingson 02:56
I'm doing well. Thank you. Glad to be here.
Michelle Abraham 02:59
Awesome. Well, I am thrilled that you're here to Michael and I want to tell our audience a little bit more about you. So Michael is the New York Times bestselling author and international lecturer. Michael's also been blind since birth and survived the 911 tax with the help of his guide dog goes out. So the story and this story is the subject of his best selling book Thunder dog. So Michaels been giving lectures and presentations all around the world speaking to influence influential groups, and you're an ambassador for the National Braille literacy campaign and the federal, a National Federation of the Blind and also an ambassador of the American Humane Association. 2012 hero dog awards. Michael, you've done so many presentations, countless TV and Radio appearances. And you've just got this message that you're carrying on. I think this is such a great platform for you to have now podcasts to then explore all these topics. You're really interested in talking about accessibility and inclusion. And I think this is just a great, a great way to get to know you a little bit better, Michael, so thanks for joining us today.
Michael Hingson 04:05
Glad to be here looking forward to it.
Michelle Abraham 04:08
So Michael, tell us a little bit about your childhood. So you were Where were you born and raised.
Michael Hingson 04:15
I was born in Chicago on the south side no less. And we were I grew up there until I was five my parents didn't know at first I was blind. It was actually about four months after I was born that my end said to my mom, you know he doesn't react to sunlight. I wonder if he's blind or something like that. And they took me to the hospital and sure enough I am I was I was blind because I was born two months premature and I was put in a pure oxygen environment that can cause retinas to malformed it's a condition in those days that was called retro electro fibro pleasure if people want to learn how to spell that they can get Thunder dog. But later it became known they changed the name to retinopathy of prematurity, which Just maybe a little easier to spell. But the bottom line is it's the same thing. So the retina didn't form properly. And so essentially from basic about birth I was was blind. The doctors told my parents sent him to a home, he will never be able to amount to anything blind, blind people can't grow up and do anything. And he will just take all the love that you have, and that won't be good for your older son. When my parents said, No, you're wrong. He can grow up to do whatever he wants, we're going to take him home so they bucked if you will, the learned medical profession of Chicago, and they took me home, I grew up in Chicago for five years, and dude did all the things that my brother and my cousins who lived next door to us and near us did. And so then we moved to California. My last year in Chicago, I went to kindergarten because kindergarten for kids in Chicago starts at age four. And my parents had worked with other families of blind kids, there were a lot of preemies. It was the baby boomer era. So there were a lot of priests who lost their eyesight. Excuse me. And so there was a special kindergarten class for blind kids. So in that class, I actually learned Braille for the first time and I learned some other skills. But then we moved to California and all that went away, because we moved to an area that was very rural, but 65 miles from Los Angeles, but it might as well have been on the moon for in terms of the kinds of services and so on that were available, there was nothing for blind kids there. And also, kindergarten in California starts when you're five, so I had to go through another year of kindergarten and did was pretty boring for me, and then I went into first, second and third grade and regular public schools, didn't get to read books because they weren't available to me in Braille, no one knew how to get them. And so my parents read me books, and my father taught me math, I was doing algebra in my head, by the time I was six, and learning to do all the things mentally, that other people had the opportunity to do, learning by reading and so on. But I went to school prepared for lessons because my mother and father read them to me the night before. So then, between third and fourth grade, the school district hired a teacher who was knowledgeable about blindness and blind people in blind kids who had been trained in that profession. And there were now several blind children in the area. So I finally in fourth grade got to learn to read Braille again. And I need to explain, growing up, having learned Braille a second time, but having learned Braille, Braille is the means of reading and writing that blind people have. And anyone who is blind, even if you go blind later in life, should learn the basic rudiments of Braille. And kids who are blind or even low vision should learn Braille. Because if you are a child who has low vision, so you can still see, the odds are you won't ever be able to read as fast or as well, with your eyesight, as you will, if you learn Braille, simply because the strain, the physiological constraints and so on, will not allow you to do with your eyes, what you could do with your fingers and learning Braille. The educational system has not gone that way. And they keep saying, well, blind kids can use recordings and other things. Now they don't need to learn to read Braille. And my response to that is, if that's the case, then why do you say to kids need to learn to reprint they can watch cartoons and pictures on television, right? But sighted kids learn to reprint blind kids need to learn to read Braille, and the educational system should support that. And even today, it is so greatly resisted by the educational system, which is so unfortunate, but I grew up learning Braille. And being in public school.
Michael Hingson 09:09
I wanted to go to college and get a degree in physics. And I did I went to the University of California at Irvine. But through most of growing up all the way through high school, there were some programs and books became available, and so things got to be a little better. But still looking back on it. I was tolerated more than probably as embraced as other students. And it wasn't something that was ever hostile. There were a couple of times that were it was I talked Well, sometimes. There were a couple of times that were, excuse me, a little bit hostile. But mostly, it was okay. The hostility when I started high school, I got my first guide dog and the school superintendent of our high School District decided to enforce a rule of the school that said no live animals were allowed on school buses. That was diametrically opposed to a state law that said that I could take my guide dog on a school bus. And it took, eventually getting the governor of the state of California involved, to shoot down the superintendent on that. It was a great lesson for me. But my father fought that fight. And we succeeded. So it was a lesson to me that I was going to be treated differently. But the reality is blindness wasn't the problem. It was the attitudes of people. And I have always felt that way
Michelle Abraham 10:36
is that you saw what you are pointing to like an amazing family, and amazing parents that were really, really great supporters and advocates for you. Growing up, do you feel like kids today now who are blind have more opportunities than you would have had when you were growing up?
Michael Hingson 10:53
I think the opportunities are there. But I'm not sure that parents and kids take or have the opportunity always to take them there. One of the things that my parents did, I guess you could say they were risk takers, they let me ride a bike, they let me go out in the neighborhood. I walked to school every day, sometimes with my brother, sometimes I walked alone, I did the same things that other kids did. If there was something that I couldn't do, we figured out a way around it. But the reality is, of course, there are things that I could do that other people couldn't do. And we always figure out ways around it. So my parents were very open to allowing me to grow. And I think that today, the attitudes toward blindness have not x have not expanded nor changed nearly as much as they should. I know many kids who still live in very sheltered homes, who don't really learn to investigate, they don't get the opportunity to explore. And as a result, they're really taught that blindness limits them. blindness doesn't limit them. It's what people do with blindness that limits people,
Michelle Abraham 12:08
right? I can imagine, right? How I was learning how to ride a bike health a little bit about that experience. So that must have been a little bit scary for you, like you did
Michael Hingson 12:22
it? Well. If it was they didn't show it. The first time I wrote a bike was actually there was a girl who moved into our neighborhood who wrote a bike and we made friends. And she let me kind of ride hers a little bit, and I got used to doing it. And then my parents got me my own bike when I was I think like seven, we were in a very quiet town. So I could ride my bike around the neighborhood and did and learn to listen learn to hear cars in front of me that were parked on the side of the streets. And I could tell when I was passing that driveway, because the sound was different, I learned to use all the cues around we just like you or any sighted person would do. So it wasn't magical. Once I learned to stay balanced on the bike, which is what everyone has to do. So it really wasn't any different. It's just learning to use different cues.
Michelle Abraham 13:17
That's great, I love that I love that you're able to explore and your parents were so open to letting you you know, not limit you from things that you can do and keeping you sheltered it sounds like they're, you know, that's made your childhood, you know, more of a of a childhood that is a full of exploration like any other kids childhood, which is awesome.
Michael Hingson 13:35
Well, kids need to explore. And the more we shelter kids and don't allow them to explore and discover, the harder it is I think in life, we we have to do that. And I think that nowadays, it's a lot tougher to let kids explore, because there's so many horrible things going on in the world. But even so, parents need to find ways to let kids explore, they may need to supervise it more and keep an eye on their kids. But by the same token, they still need to let kids explore. And also put rules on kids. There is a there's a value in rules. And there's a value in saying this is what you can do. And this is what we're not going to allow you to do. It's not a mystery question of can and can't it's a question of what we're going to allow as parents because we are the ones that look out for you. But it's also what we're not going to allow you to do for one reason or another. And parents have to be sensible about that. But they've got to let kids explore and discover.
Michelle Abraham 14:36
Yeah, for sure. So now moving into when you're in college, how is that studying in college? What were what were some things that you were able to do that were that got you through college and picking and what made you pick the it was a chemistry that you picked up as a physics as a as a Yeah,
Michael Hingson 14:55
I've always been interested in physics and science and so on. My father during World War Two was in communications. And he, when we moved to California was hired to be in the calibration and maintenance is really the wrong word. But the calibration and the development of test equipment used in in Air Force projects, for example, he worked with Neil Armstrong when Neil Armstrong was at Edwards Air Force Base, he worked with people as they were developing some of the early rocket planes and so on. And he was responsible for the a lot of the test equipment and the equipment used on the flights and equipment used to monitor the flight. So I always had an interest in kind of science and so on. Because of what I knew his interest was, I got my first radio kit to put radios together. When I was eight or nine, I think it was it was made by a company called remko. And then I got another radio kit later on to build a radio transmitter and some other things. And then my father and I both got our amateur radio licenses. When I was 14. He could have gotten his at any time. But he waited until I studied and was old enough and got one. And so
Michelle Abraham 16:13
early. That's early stage podcasting, right?
Michael Hingson 16:15
It really was. Well, so he, and I got our licenses. And we actually had a lot of fun. We each had our own radio transmitters, and we set them up with antennas at opposite ends of the house. And we carried on conversations on some of the radio bands. Because if we were like miles and miles away, and of course everyone knew who we were. And they're all sitting there going, what are you guys talking about? You know, I talked about the fact that it's raining outside and he said it wasn't, and so on. We drove people crazy. But we were we were members of the local ham radio club. Yeah, I still have my license to this day.
Michelle Abraham 16:51
Oh my gosh, that's so much fun. So fast forward in college, you graduate with a degree in physics? And then what was it? What was the next adventure for you?
Michael Hingson 17:01
Well, for me in college, one of the challenges was that there weren't books readily available. And so they had to be transcribed. And there literally in those days, there were people who had Braille writing machines who would transcribe by hand, books, they knew mathematics, Braille mathematics, was called the Nemeth Code developed by a guy named Abraham nimeth, who was a blind mathematician. So they would transcribe the books. And so our challenge was that sometimes professors didn't want to give us information about books six months or more in advance, because we haven't decided we got to wait till the last minute, see what the latest thing is. And it took a lot of work to convince some professors that there was value and making those decisions earlier. But we we mostly succeeded, there were a couple of courses that I took that I didn't have the books in time. So I worked with, with people to make sure that I got the information that I needed. My freshman, sophomore thermodynamics course, was was a one that I remember, well, where we didn't have the right book in time. So that was a challenge, but we got through it. But I went through college, did a lot of the same things that everyone else did went to class every day, got up early, went to the comments, the cafeteria, eat now that I worked at the campus radio station, got my third class radio license so that I could be on the air and so on and later became program director of the station and, again, participated as much as possible in campus activities like anyone else would do. lived in the dorms, and then an on campus apartment. And yes, they graduate, stayed at UC Irvine to get my master's degree as well as my secondary teaching credential, which was a lot of fun.
Michelle Abraham 18:47
Did you have a guide dog with you, and you're in university.
Michael Hingson 18:51
I did. Started with my first guide dog Squire who got when I who I got when I was 14, square, and I worked together until night from 1964 to 1973. And then I got my second guy, dog Holland. So Holland, went through physics with me. He and I graduated with a master's degree. And then I was hired by the National Federation of the Blind. Because of my physics background, I was hired and asked to help with a project that they were developing with a guy named Raymond Kurzweil, Dr. Kurzweil had developed technology that could develop an image of a printed page and recognize the characters on the page so that they can be put in computer readable form. So today, of course, we scan all sorts of things just by taking a picture with an iPhone back in those days, it was a whole lot different. But still, the images could be created in his software didn't care what the type style was, or if there were a bunch of type styles or printed styles on the page. It would still recognize the characters. He was looking for fun To help perfect the machine, and people have no interest in what he was doing, they said it couldn't be done. And he said, Yes, it can. And he finally got to somebody in the National Federation of the Blind, who was convinced at least to come and look at it. And he convinced Dr. Jernigan, Dr. Ken Jernigan, the president of the Federation, to let him go up to raise lab, this guy was a guy named Jim Gasol. So Jim went up to the lab in Cambridge. And Jim told Chris Well, I don't care what you have, that the machine is going to read. I'm not going to be interested unless I can bring all my stuff up whatever I want. And I'm not going to tell you in advance what it is. And if you're machineries it, then we're really interested in Ray didn't put it quite this way. But raise it bring it on. Well, Jim Gasol did, the machine did. And a project was formed where the Federation and Kurzweil works together raised foundation funding to buy five prototype machines at $50,000 each, as well as hiring staff, which was primarily me to literally travel the country for 18 months living out of hotels, setting these 400 pound machines up in places where blind people could use them. And developing programs at all these places to allow people to use the machine, interact with it, read with the machines, and give feedback that we could use to create a final set of recommendations for what needed to go into a full production generation of the machine. So literally, in late October of 1976, I put all of my furniture and things in storage, and left California with a couple of suitcases toolbox, because I wouldn't have to repair machines from time to time. And a guy Don Holland, and we flew to Boston, where I'd never been before we set up in an apartment they had arranged on a long term, residential place for me to stay. So I immediately got to learn to get around Boston, and then traveled into Cambridge, where Ray Kurzweil his lab was work there for a while learning all the things that I needed to learn about the machine. And then we started putting them around the country in about March or April of 1977. And as I said, literally traveling around the country, to to be where the machines were interact with the people using them and, and all the other things that went into the to the project. And then in June of 1978, the project ended as we created the recommendations for the final version of the report, saying what needed to be in the machine. And then I was hired by Ray to do the same thing internally. So again, I never thought I would be doing something like that. I had really thought I'd go into teaching but I got to use some teaching skills because we wrote a training manual for the machine early on. So I went to work for Ray. And in May of 1979, I believe it was I was called into the office of the vice president of marketing and said, You said we're laying you off and I said, What is it? Yeah, we're laying you off. I had just moved to Boston. And I knew from being involved in the National Federation of the Blind. I'd been in that organization since 1972. It's the largest organization of blind people in the country. I knew the unemployment rate among employable blind people was 70%. And it's not much lower than that today. And it's not because blind people can't work. It's because people think we can't roadblocks again, right? Anyway, I didn't want to leave the company. But he said, we're laying you off. And the reason we're laying off is not that you're doing a bad job. But like a lot of startups, we've hired too many people who are not revenue producers, and we need to get more sales people in so we're going to have to lay you off. And then there was this pause. And he said, Unless you want to go into sales. Now I'm a science guy, right? I'm a teacher, I'm not a sales guy. So he said, you know, you've got to decide what you want to do. Well, I took maybe a micro nanosecond, and I said, Sure, I'll go into sales. I didn't want to change companies. I didn't want to go off and start trying to find another job after moving all of my stuff to Boston. So I took a Dale Carnegie sales course and went into sales. But I also had the advantage of being very technical and had the discipline of being technical, which helped, as I discovered in learning to sell the product. And not only that I wasn't selling the reading machine for blind people I was asked to sell a commercial version of that machine that would convert not to voice for blind people to read to read but would actually convert just to ASCII computer digital form. So That banks could digitize their paper, publishers could digitize and republish old books, lawyers could publish documents to put in a database for research. It was the first time optical character recognition was really used to help in large scale ways, take material and put it into computer readable form. Because again, Kurzweil is products didn't care about type sales. And so my sales territory became New England and Canada. So now I'm flying to a foreign country where I'd never been before as well.
Michael Hingson 25:35
And again, I was fortunate because it all started with the National Federation of the Blind where I had a job. But clearly, I had to have been able to perform the work to be considered as we moved on. And I thought, as I thought about it later, Ray and the staff at Kurzweil must have had a lot of confidence in me to say, we're going to take you from what you were doing and let you sell our most advanced flagship product for companies in New England and Canada. And then I became a sales manager for the company and and also helped in some other product developments that expanded as Xerox took an interest in Kurzweil and decided to buy the company. So I worked with Xerox people. And in 1981, the end of 1981, was asked to move back to California, as Xerox was slowly assimilating the company. And I was asked to work with the West Coast technical people and sales people to integrate Kurzweil into Xerox. So we moved back to California. I met a woman named Karen Ashurst in January of 1982. And we got married in November of 1982.
Michelle Abraham 26:53
Notice that?
Michael Hingson 26:55
Yeah, really well, well, by that time, we both knew what we wanted. We were old enough to know what we were looking for. Yeah, we got along. Well, that's okay. And 39 years later, this November 27, we're still married.
Michelle Abraham 27:08
Congratulations. That's amazing.
Michael Hingson 27:11
And so, again, I know that in some senses, my story is, I don't know, I would say unique. But it's, it shows fortunate circumstances because I was offered a position and then I continued to move on from that. But it's a combination of educating people having the confidence to do it. And, and then making some good choices. And I believe that life is always about choices. And we have options whenever we are confronted with a fork in the road, you know, when somebody once said, you know, with a fork in the road, you can go to the left, or the right. Take your pick.
Michelle Abraham 27:52
Yeah. And it sounds like you really had the confidence to explore new territories and do new things, which is been really great. Now, my question is, yeah, from your parents, which was amazing. You obviously, that's come right from your childhood. And when you were traveling across the country and into Canada. Now, is the accessibility vary? does it vary from, you know, state to state to country to country? Or did you find it was pretty, pretty similar to travel around both of those, both of those countries and throughout the States?
Michael Hingson 28:26
Yeah, it has been pretty similar in Canada and the United States. Over time, I think the laws haven't progressed in a uniform way. In Canada, for example, there isn't as much of a broad americans with disabilities act like legislation, as there is in the US. It's more province by province. But in the US, the Americans with Disabilities Act has limitations. For example, there are battles on a regular basis over websites. The Americans with Disabilities Act says that businesses need to provide so long as it doesn't disrupt the business operation. They need to provide reasonable accommodations to provide access for persons with disabilities, access to the facilities, I should put it a different way to the businesses. It doesn't specify brick and mortar, it just says that the businesses need to be accessible. Universities need to make materials and and what they do accessible. The problem with websites is some organizations have taken the position well, but the ADA was passed before the internet so it clearly can't cover the internet. The ADA doesn't say brick and mortar. And so in court cases, some have said when judges rule Well, the ADA doesn't say it doesn't apply to the internet. The adea doesn't say it only applies to brick and mortar. So of course it applies to the internet and a number of companies have had To comply, some companies have fought. And judges have said, well, the internet really wasn't around then. So clearly the ADA can apply. So it's still a mixed bag, there's a gray area. But the reality is the majority, I think of the judicial system, the majority of people, and in most cases, the majority of what people ought to be doing is to make the internet as accessible. But it but it isn't that way all over. Now there is, for example, a new piece of legislation going into effect has gone into effect in Ontario, but it doesn't go across Canada, and then the Ontario legislation demands accessibility, but again, it's province by province. But in the United States, it still is much too much left up to the courts. And it shouldn't be what it really says is that people with disabilities still are not as included as other minority groups, even though over 20% of people in the United States and in Canada have a disability were not included, like others.
Michelle Abraham 31:13
Wow, that's a huge percentage. Yeah. Interesting. It's interesting how it's varies from different, different places. And if you do envision there being like one, sort of one band of legislation across like North America at some point in your lifetime, that have it all, in one, you know, covered underneath, like kind of the same legislation. So it's the same from state to state?
Michael Hingson 31:40
Well, I think over time, some things will happen. There was an attempt several years ago to create a treaty, and essentially legislation that would more dictate treatment of persons with disabilities. But even people in our country opposed it saying, no other country is going to tell us what to do. Even though the treaty was based on the ADA, the Americans with Disabilities Act, it's still got a long way to go in terms of getting to the point where we truly believe that persons with disabilities should be included. what's ironic about that, is that and I said it before, we all have disabilities, and and to say that my so called disability is that I am blind is, is really creating the limitation based on somebody's opinion. The fact is, your disability is that you need to have the lights on, or you need to have access to sunlight, because you don't know how to function and can't function well, in the dark. And most technology is developed based on the premise that you can see it. Most television is based on the premise that you can see it and I appreciate that. But if it doesn't take into account, providing the appropriate audio information, you lose out as much as I do, what happens at any commercial, what do people do, they get up and they go get a beer or whatever. And in the background, you hear music, and there's a lot of stuff showing up on the on your TV screen. But nobody says what it is. And it's getting worse, where we see more and more TV commercials, where there is no talking or no descriptive talking that tells me what the commercials even about. That's not just true for me, that's true for anyone. Or today, we talk about the fact that people shouldn't text and drive. But society isn't taking advantage of the fact that companies like Apple have built in voice technology in their phones that can read information that comes across the screen. And apple and other companies have not taken to the extent that they should that voice technology to make it truly possible for you to deal with texts without looking at the screen. Right? If you really want to pick on somebody, let's pick on Eon Elan Musk, right, he's got this wonderful Tesla, but it's all controlled with a touchscreen so you got to look at the screen. Rather than keeping your eye on the road. Of course the premise there is you don't need to keep your eye on the road eventually, because the car will drive itself although it's not there yet. But they still should not rely on a visual screen. We get more information from sound than we ever do from what we see and I can make that case all day long.
Michelle Abraham 34:35
Yeah, and this is the 70% of the population is more auditory learners anyways. Exactly. Yeah. Then visual which, by wire podcasting industry is booming like crazy, right? Like I want to talk about a pivotal moment in your life was something that happened on 911. So what are you doing in the World Trade Center on 911.
Michael Hingson 34:56
So still doing the job migration and upgrade path. After Kurzweil was purchased totally by Xerox, we, all the pre Xerox takeover salespeople were invited to leave with thanks for being with us. Your services are no longer needed. Too many companies do that. And I went through a series of jobs. The first one, in fact was I started my own company because I couldn't get a job because people didn't care what my resume showed, you're blind, you could not possibly do what we need you to do. I even had job interviews canceled in advance when someone discovered that I was blind, couldn't say it up front. But we went through all that. And eventually, I went to work for a company in California that in 1996, asked me to move to the east coast to open an office for them, because we did a lot of selling on Wall Street. So I moved to New Jersey. And we started an office, actually in number two world trade. But I was only there a year. And then I was recruited away by another company. And then in 1999, quantum Corporation, which was and is a fortune 500 company, hired me and quantum made the products that people used to back up all of their computer data. So in Wall Street, for example, whenever you conduct any activity, any transaction, any sales, for whatever you did, you have to keep a record of that for seven years, as required by the Securities and Exchange Commission. So quantum made tape backup systems that could be attached to computer networks. And then people could use software to backup all of their data. So quantum did that primarily through resellers, people who bought our products and resolve them. But Wall Street wanted a real live office for quantum in the city. They did business with companies that had offices in the city, it didn't mean that they wouldn't buy from resellers. But they wanted a presence nearby. So we opened an office in October, excuse me in August of 2000. In tower, one of the World Trade Center that we took a year from the time I was hired by quantum, we had an office in New Jersey, but wanted to move it to New York and we finally found a good price and negotiated a great price in the World Trade Center and open the office in August of 2000. So our office was on the 78th floor of tower one I was responsible completely for running that office for hiring sales people getting support people and others involved. And we did all that. So on September 11, we were going to be doing a sales seminar, actually a series of seminars, teaching some of our reseller partners how to sell our products. And so I was in the office pretty early I was in about 20 to eight 740. And a colleague from our corporate office, David Frank was back for the day because he was responsible for the pricing models that we use with resellers and distributors and so on. And so he was going to be there to help deal with pricing and so on. And my job was to run the seminars and to do the actual selling presentations because I would be the the liaison with all of our resellers and, and the distributor that all these resellers actually purchased
Michelle Abraham 38:30
from them like you got to do.
Michael Hingson 38:33
You got to do some teaching. That was that was the plan. Yeah. And so that was what we were going to be doing that day and the seminars were supposed to start about nine in the morning. So I got to the office, and David and some of our early guests arrived about eight we had arranged for breakfast. So people were eating breakfast, and David and I had a few final preparations before the seminar were to start at 845. We were in my office, when the first plane crashed into tower one. It hit 18 floors above us on the other side of the building. So none of us knew what happened. Of course reporters always said and still say sometimes Well, of course you didn't know what happened because you couldn't see it. And I've gotten to the point of being very intolerant of that question because nobody could see it. The last time I checked, Superman and X ray vision were fictitious, fictitious, they weren't real. And when I'm on the south side of a building, and the airplane hits on the north side 18 floors above us, how are any of us going to know what happened? We didn't know. And going all the way down the stairs we didn't know. But I had done something that I didn't actually think about in as much detail as they should have until last year which is I had spent a lot of time prior to September 11 learning about the company. Plex learning where things were literally learning how to get anywhere in the building, I also spend time learning about what to do in the case of emergencies. And spent hours talking to the the fire protection people, the Port Authority, security people learning everything that I could, because I knew that one, I might be the only person in my office if we happen to have an emergency because I didn't want the salespeople in there more than they needed to be. They needed to be out selling. Yeah, we had meetings and so on. But they were out more than they were in. And sometimes I was out with them. But a lot of times I might be in the office alone. And so I wanted to know all I could because I'm not going to read signs that tell me what to do when an emergency and shouldn't. But what happened because of all of that was I developed a mindset that basically said, you know what to do in an emergency, you don't need to worry about it, unless it just falls on you. And there's nothing you can do anyway. But that mindset kicked in when the plane hit the building. And I was able to keep people focused. And as I've learned to call it, I was not blinded by fear. And by that I mean I was not paralyzed, I was not consumed by fear so that I could figure out what to do. I used the fear and concern that I had in a controlled way to heighten my senses of observation, and my thought process processes to be able to deal with whatever was going on. And the result of that was that I realized pretty quickly that whatever was going on wasn't near enough to us that we couldn't try to evacuate in an orderly way. And we did, we went to we got our guests to the stairs. And then David, who got them to the stairs and started them down then came back and we then went to the stairs and started down why the stairs, because in an emergency especially if there's fire, you don't take the elevators because the fire could get into the elevator shafts. It did. But I knew not to take the elevators because of the preparations that I had made and the knowledge that I had. So I got David to take people to the stairs. Then he came back, we went to the stairs and started down. And almost immediately I began spelling an odor. And I realized after about four floors, it was a familiar odor. And what it was was the fumes from burning jet fuel. So that's the first time I knew that there were airplanes involved. And I observed it to other people. And they said, yeah, we must have been hit by an airplane because you're right. That's what we're smelling as jet fuel. Wow. Yeah. But that's all we knew going down the stairs. So, um, but we didn't make it down. I was due to preparation and a mindset. And last year in the pandemic, I realized I've talked about that. So after September 11, I traveled around the country, people would start calling me and saying would you come and tell us your story and speak to us about the lessons we should learn. And that happened because on the 12th of September, I called Guide Dogs for the Blind and they wrote a story and Larry King got ahold of it. And I was invited to be on Larry King Live on the 14th of September for the first of five interviews on Larry's and
Michelle Abraham 43:16
on liking a lot having five times Yeah. Now, over the course of the last like 10 years, or
Michael Hingson 43:23
Yeah, it was actually from 2001 through 2006. But on the last time we were at the show, I said to Larry, at some point, I think I've got to write a book about this. Would you write the foreword? And he said, Absolutely. And so when we did write Thunder dog in 2010 and 2011 with Suzy Florrie. We got ahold of Larry and I said, you know, here's the book, would you would you write the foreword. And he did. He wrote a great forward. I'm pretty glad that Larry wrote that it was a page turner. I like that. But but you know that that helped. And the story captivated and still does people's interest. They want someone to come and speak and for me.
Michael Hingson 44:15
After September 11, I started getting these calls. And I'm kind of going, why don't want want to spend time selling computer technologies and even tape backup products. I love quantum. But there were some challenges there I with some changes in the leadership of the company. But also, if people want to hire me just to come and tell a story and teach them. Maybe that's what I'm supposed to do because I was able to survive. I think that when you face death and something like this happens, you're you're given a choice as to what you want to do with your life. And frankly, I want to always help people. So this was an opportunity to Do that. Also Guide Dogs for the Blind asked if I would come and work for them. And in 2002, I joined guide dogs, but I also started traveling and speaking. And that also helped guide dogs. So I worked for guide dogs for six and a half years, but also started traveling and being all over the country. And then we got a new CEO in 2008, who said, nobody's interested in World Trade Center anymore. So we're phasing out your job. And I said, Okay, well, if that's what you're going to do, then I started my own company to keep doing it. And of course, in 2010, we wrote Thunder dog and 2011. It was published in his first week out, it was on the New York Times bestseller list. And it's been a number one New York Times bestseller. So the concept of nobody being interested in September 11 really wasn't sensible. But that was their choice. But again, it's all about choices. And it's what you do with your life. And for me, I think helping people and teaching people and, and getting people to recognize, maybe there's more to life than what we all think and that we all can make better choices to help ourselves and each others is a good thing. So now I've started to talk about the whole concept of how you deal with controlling your fear in an unexpected life situation. We haven't done as much as I was going to do with that, because there was another change that came along earlier this year. But we do have a website blinded by fear dotnet. And you can get to it also by going to my website, Michael hingson comm slash blinded by fear, and there's an E book about it, we'll be doing some other stuff with it. But in January, I was contacted by a gentleman named shear exceling, who is the was the was an is the founder of a company called excessively ACC SSI ve and he said, we've really looked at what you do. And I had expressed an interest just in other ways about the company because I discovered it when I went to a website, excessive B makes websites accessible. It's a product to help make websites more accessible. And when I discovered the product, I started inquiring about it, I thought about becoming one of their sales partners and just independently selling it. But then the founder called and said, Would you join us and so in January of this year, I became the chief vision officer for accessibility. And I get to help access to be help other companies make their websites accessible, and help them to recognize not only the value of making their website accessible, thus opening it to 20% more of people who they might not otherwise be able to gain access to because their sites aren't usable, but also helping to perfect the message and helping to make the product a better product and so on. So it's a lot of fun. So I still travel and speak and I work with excessive being talked about website access and stuff like that. So I've always like I've always liked to help people and teach. Needless to say, an excessive B is allowed several opportunities to do that. And now we're about to launch our own podcast called unstoppable mindset. That will be part of a group of podcasts that will go out as as an umbrella with an excessive be called excess cast, which isn't really announced and it's still forming. But access cast is a word we can start to use. So access cast will in part be sponsoring the unstoppable mindset, which is a podcast to talk about people who recognize their gifts and in the face sometimes of adversity in the face of fear, or just people who are confident who will talk about what they do, and who also want to help teach make the world a better place. For example, we'll have a podcast coming up in late September early October.
Michael Hingson 49:08
That will be a picture of a lady named Peggy Chong, who is known as the blind history lady Peggy has spent years researching things that blind people have done. She's got an incredible number of stories and books about different blind people up and what they've done. a jazz musician in San Francisco, who I think a number of people have heard of, but they didn't know was blind. Sir David Humphreys who is a blind scientist from the very famous scientists in England in the 1800s, but but he was blind. Dr. Jacob Salatin who was a cardiologist who lost his eyesight and continued to be a cardiologist in Chicago who was blind. A judge in India In their incredible number of stories, so we're going to have her on to talk about some of the stories and talk about her life in general as well. And we'll, we'll talk about web access. But I'm always looking for people who have a story to tell that we can bring on. And so anyone who hears this, please reach out to us at Mike at Michael hingson Comm.
Michelle Abraham 50:25
And we will get that, Michael, Have you always been an advocate for inclusivity and accessibility?
Michael Hingson 50:31
I think I have whether it was formally or not, but especially after joining the National Federation of the Blind, I learned the value of it. One of the things that happened to me growing up and in college was I wanted to get life insurance, and I couldn't, because insurance companies said that if you are blind or have a physical disability, you're a greater risk than others. And so we'll either not provide you with insurance, or we're going to charge you an incredibly high rate just because we think you're a high risk. The last time I faced that was in college, this guy comes to our door, he made an appointment to see me and I didn't say I was blind. Deliberately, he comes to the door, and I answered the door. And he said, I'm looking for Michael hinkson. And I saw I'm like looking since you are, well, you didn't sound blind on the telephone, I can't sell you insurance, I said, Sure, you can well, you're a higher risk. Well, in the late 1970s, the National Federation of the Blind started to work on that project. And the bottom line is that insurance companies do all of their work based on statistics, they decide who's a higher risk based on actual mathematical models and numbers that justify their decisions. As it turns out, they didn't have a single solitary statistic, they had nothing to show that if you're blind simply because of blindness. Or if you have a physical disability just because you have a physical disability, that you were a higher risk. And it took several years, but we got every state in the country to pass a law saying you can no longer discriminate just because a person has a physical disability.
Michelle Abraham 52:07
That's great. What other changes you want to see like that you've you know, obviously been working in this in this area for quite some time. Now, there's obviously some things that the world's not caught up to just yet. What are some things? What are some changes that you want to see in place in your lifetime? Well, I
Michael Hingson 52:23
want to see webaccess. I want the world to automatically recognize and include all persons in what they do to design websites. And it's doable. excessively today is the only scalable product that can allow that to happen. But however people make their websites accessible, they should do it. I want people to to allow us to have access to other technologies. Can a blind person drive a car? Absolutely. Anybody who wants to see that can go to www dot blind driver challenge.org. The technology exists to do it today. It's still not street legal ready, but it's coming in isn't an autonomous vehicle. Although that will help. I'd like to see autonomous vehicles because I think that opens up a lot of opportunities. And besides that the way a lot of people drive today, driver errs, I'd rather I'd rather turn it over to the computers, because the way people drive today Forget it, you know. So, but I would like to see inclusion not only in website access, but in, in technology in general. We got to refrigerator earlier this year, and you control it with a touchscreen. And the people the manufacturer said, well, it's it complies with the ADA, well, it doesn't if I can't use it. And there's an app and a Wi Fi module to add to that that may make it accessible, but I'm still not sure. Because I got the module two weeks ago and the app is inaccessible. There's no reason for that. I would like to see the manufacturers of smartphones, man require I'm not going to use mandate because I think that's overused require that at least basic accessibility be included in every app that they allow through their stores. There is no excuse for not allowing access today in every app that that is developed. And the manufacturers like apple in its App Store doesn't do anything to require any kind of accessibility. They say what we do publish guidelines. Yeah, but you and your app store have other requirements that apps need to meet in order to be sold through the store. But you don't do anything regarding access. The iPhone is accessible but it's accessible because they were going to be sued and they they fought off a lawsuit by saying we'll fix it. And they did. So they're 95% there, but they don't do anything about apps in the store. So if I were to sum it up, I would say, in my lifetime, I would like to see us evolve to the point where we don't need to even use the term accessible, because inclusion will be automatic and part of our mindset.
Michelle Abraham 55:25
Love that. Yeah, that's a that's a great thing to be able to. I see that could be something that could be coming down air, you know, in our lifetime, for sure is something that anything, that's a great thing to be able to aim for. Now. Just a quick question for people who don't know, what it takes to make a website accessible. What what are a couple things you can just say real quick? What are a few things that need to happen in order for a website to be accessible?
Michael Hingson 55:52
Well, first of all, access a B is inexpensive, it's $49 a month, and it keeps the website accessible to a very large degree, the kinds of things that excessive B does. And the kinds of things that I would say websites need to do is they need to recognize the the necessity of someone wants to use a keyboard. So how many websites have you gone to where you mouse over a list, and as you scroll down the list, the screen refreshes to show whichever item you're highlighting, that doesn't work with a keyboard because as soon as I go to the list and start down to the first one, before I can get to the second one, the screen is refreshed and the list goes away. I need to be able to see the whole list. I need to have links labeled so that I know what a link is. I need to see menus, and menus need to verbalize and those are all things that can be done. The reality is websites can be fully inclusive today. Totally 100%. inclusive. Yeah, but mostly 30. Yeah, the technology exists. But either it's too costly. Because most websites are made by small enterprises that don't have a lot of money. That's where access to be helps. But also, many websites and websites developers don't know anything about access or inclusion. It's not part of their mindset or their lexicon.
Michelle Abraham 57:18
Yeah. And so how is it in your, in your opinion? How is it gonna have to change to get the accessibility on the top of people's minds moving forward in the future?
Michael Hingson 57:28
It's education, I think it would help if we had tougher laws. It is true that if you don't make your website accessible today, you can be sued. The ADA is enforced and enough courts have said that essentially by by ruling in favor of website accessibility requirements for a particular site that you can be sued. That's not the reason for making your website accessible, or it shouldn't be you should do it, because it's the right thing to do. But it is a reality that websites need to be made accessible and they can be and it will help prevent lawsuits. But more importantly, it's the right thing to do, as I said, so people need to think about it. That's in part why we're starting the podcasts because I want to educate people about inclusion in general, I want people to not be afraid of blindness. In in past years, the Gallup polling organization has surveyed the fears that people in the United States have. And for many years, one of the top five fears was blindness. Because people grow up thinking that eyesight is the only game in town. And it's not. So it's it's an educational process. But I do wish Congress would adopt more stringent legislation mandates requiring, again, mandating overused requiring that that there be true inclusion, whether it's making products, whether it's website accessibility, whether it's being able to use things, there are blind diabetics, right? who use insulin pumps, but I can't read the screen on an insulin pump, it's very difficult for a blind person to be able to, to measure and set up that much less get the information if there is something that needs to be changed or addressed. can be done with an app with more recent pumps. But again, the app has to be accessible and stay accessible. So there's a lot of education, but there's a lot that Congress could do to address the issue. And meanwhile, we make inroads with accessibility and, and again, I think we're in a great position because of the fact that the system is scalable. And by that, I mean for example, as has happened a number of times in the past several months, somebody emails me and said I had a website that I went to that used excessively and Couldn't do something. Can you fix it? And I and other people went, and we discovered that in reality, there was a problem on the website. And when accessibly fixes the problem for one website, because it's cloud based, it suddenly fixes it for every website. So anyone else that use the same technology got the fix?
Michelle Abraham 1:00:22
Oh, that's awesome. And so now SSB is become a partner of yours. And,
Michael Hingson 1:00:29
now its a company that I work for. Yeah, yeah.
Michelle Abraham 1:00:31
And so now you're in the podcast that's coming out. The hope is to have more education around accessibility and inclusion. And so tell us before we let you go, some things that you're hoping to, to have happen with your podcast, tell us a little bit about more about the podcast, what we can expect from me. And I know it's sad, it's it's a been an awesome project to work on with you. So tell us a little bit more about it?
Michael Hingson 1:00:56
Well, I don't want to try to help create more of a climate of inclusion in the world. I don't use diversity, because diversity, very rarely, if ever, includes people with disabilities. So I think inclusion is a more relevant term. I want to talk about that I do want to talk about access. But I also want to talk and, and interview people who have had other unexpected things in their lives or who have had things happen to them, and learn how they've dealt with them. And what lessons Do they have for all of us, because a lot of that will tie back to anything that you do daily with disabilities. But it isn't just a podcast about disabilities, it will be in large part. But it's also really unstoppable mindset, a mindset that some people adopt, that says we can succeed and overcome things that others are afraid of. Why are they able to do that? And what lessons can they help us teach others so that more people will, for example, not be so afraid of the pandemic, but learn how to better deal with it, and recognize the value of certain things that we probably should do just to remain more safe. And it isn't to say, don't respect this disease, it's here, and it is something that we definitely need to respect the existence of, but we also do have tools to deal with it. What happens if there's another September 11? people going down the stairs? How is it that we keep people calm in unexpected situations in their lives? What have some people been able to do? How do people with disabilities deal with that? How come some people with disabilities are successful, and others are not, which are probably very straightforward ways of getting to that same thing. And so that's why we will deal with access and inclusion. But it's not just about that, we will deal with the with the web accessibility gap, the fact that out of the 380 websites created every minute in the United States, only 2% become accessible. Or in that goes worldwide, but I'll use the United States statistic but it's about the same wherever you go. We're not inclusive, and we can be
Michelle Abraham 1:03:20
Yeah, that's amazing. I love you know, I love i'd love looking forward to hearing more of the episodes that you have created on the podcast and more of the people you know, that have stories to share about this and their experiences and just you know, the education that's needed around, you know, attitudes around, you know, inclusion and you know, accessibility I love that you know that this podcast is going to help change lives. It's going to help make an impact on people and it's going to help people change their attitude and their and their belief system around what's possible. And I love your limitless mindset. It's a very inspiring, Michael. And I want to thank you for being here with us today. Your story is really inspiring. It's really insightful. And it's really, it's, it's one that I look forward to sharing with our audience all over the world as well.
Michael Hingson 1:04:10
Thank you and I hope people will go by thunder dog. Larry King said it's a page turner I'm not going to dispute it. But I do hope people will get it. It's available wherever books are sold. Barnes and Noble sells at Amazon sells at a time to Audible. We wrote another book called running with Roselle which is more for kids about my growing up and rosellas growing up but more adults by a thing kids so it's it's available from Amazon as well. If people want to tell a story I'd love to hear from them and I gave my personal email address later but they can also reach out to contact at Michael hingson calm. So contact at m IC h AL h i n g s o n calm. Love to hear from anyone who has a story and wants to tell it on the podcast because we're not going to limit our ourselves to disabilities. But whether you have a disability of the conventional kind or your light dependent, we want to hear from you anyway, if you think you have a story that we should share, and I'm really excited to be doing the podcast and being able to help access a be make the world a more inclusive place as well.
Michelle Abraham 1:05:21
Yeah, that's so awesome. Well, thank you so much, Michael, make sure our audience listening to go check out Michael's website, Michael Hanson comm you guys can grab his books, any place that sells books, but you can also get it right from the website as well. And any last words for us, Michael, before we let you go
Michael Hingson 1:05:37
real quick, if you want to learn a little bit more about accessibility, and so on, go to access a B's website, www dot excessive, be calm. www dot ACC e SSI, b e.com. While you're there, there's a tool called Ace AC E. If you click on the link for Ace, you can actually go in and check any website. So if you want a website, plug your website in, an ace will tell you how accessible it is. So you can see how much work there is that needs to be done. You can go to my website or excessively his website and actually see the product in action as well. And I emphasize that because again, I'm wanting to really make sure that we deal with inclusion. But Ace is a great tool because you can see just what your website does, what it doesn't do and what it needs to do that it doesn't do today.
Michelle Abraham 1:06:27
And accessories got the quick solution that will help us change that I write so it can be more inclusive for everybody.
Michael Hingson 1:06:33
And for the things that excessive B doesn't do. There are a number of ways that excessive B can help you address those two. So, you know, looking forward to helping people make the world more inclusive.
Michelle Abraham 1:06:43
Absolutely. We have the tools and the technology. There's no reason not to right here, right? Haha. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Thank you. Such a pleasure having you on. And we look forward to speaking with you again. Now, thank you,
Michael Hingson 1:06:58
bye.
Michael Hingson 1:06:59
Well, I hope that you found that interesting and enjoyable and informative. You know, there are a lot of things that one can say about the whole concept of philosophy of blindness. And we'll talk more about that. in future episodes. It doesn't matter so much if it's blindness or some other disability or any difference. But there are basic philosophies. And there are basic lessons that we all should learn about difference. This podcast, the unstoppable mindset is all about discussing with people how they have overcome some of their own challenges and fears and have they have demonstrated that they are in fact unstoppable. I hope you'll be with us in future weeks, and that she'll visit Michael hingson comm slash podcast to learn more about the podcast episodes that we've already played, and some of the ones coming up and that you'll possibly want to be a part of it. If you would like to reach out, feel free to do so. And I'd love to learn more about you and possibly feature you on a future show.
Michael Hingson 1:08:12
You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week
1 hr 11 min
October 08, 2021 Episode 2 – Moving from Diversity to Inclusion
Every day we read and talk about Diversity. We hear how our population is diverse and how we must work to understand and accept our diversity. As we discuss our diverse population, we consistently leave out persons with disabilities. We talk about different racial and ethnic groups, people with a variety of different sexual orientations and we discuss the need for equality of women. However, persons with disabilities are left out of the conversation. In this podcast, Mike Hingson, a thought leader on the inclusion of people with disabilities, takes up the topic of inclusion. You will discover just how often the rights of persons with disabilities are subverted throughout society.
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About the Host:
Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.
Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.
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Transcription Notes
Michael Hingson 00:00
Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast we're inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.
Michael Hingson 01:19
Welcome to Episode Two of unstoppable mindset. Thanks for joining us. I hope that you were able to listen to last week's episode. And if you weren't, please go to www.michaelhingson.com/podcast where you can listen to that episode as well as just signing up for information about any of the podcast shows that we will be providing and all things podcast for unstoppable mindset. Today we're going to talk about the concept of moving from diversity to inclusion. So why do I talk about that? Why do I bring that particular title into it? Well, it is the title of a speech that I gave in 2019. And you will be hearing that speech in just a few moments. But if you think back to last year's presidential campaigns, if you look at the news today, and the discussions about various groups who are being disenfranchised, in one way or another, you hear about all this diversity in all these diverse groups, but you don't hear about disabilities, we who are blind, who happened to be in wheelchairs, who happened to have any other so called disability are not generally included in those topics of discussion. And there's no reason for that, except people still fear disability. I don't like the term disability By the way, but I haven't come up with something better, differently abled, and other kinds of things like that are just hiding the reality. And I'm not differently abled, I'm just as able in the same way as everyone else. I may not do tasks the same way. But I'm not differently abled, I have what society tends to call a disability. And until someone comes up with a term that doesn't strike hearts, or I shouldn't say doesn't strike fear into the hearts of people, then I'm going to accept and use the term disability. And I'm going to use that term to try to get the fear out of being stricken into the hearts of people. The reality is, just because I happen to be different in the way that I have some sort of so called disability, that doesn't really matter. I still can do the same things that most people do. I don't do them the same way. But we don't talk about that we're afraid of it.
Michael Hingson 03:49
Our president, our Vice President, don't talk about disabilities regularly. We see so much of a discussion about other kinds of minority groups. But we're not included. And we should change that. I was at a conference this week where we talked about accessibility and disability. So it was all about dealing with the whole concept of accessibility, about websites about universal design, about how artificial intelligence is helping to create better access, so many different topics, all about disabilities. And no one was afraid to talk about it. They're one of the speakers was actually from the administration. And and he talked a little bit about the fact that we need to have more of a conversation about disabilities and everything that we do. And when it came time for questions and answers, I asked him what the administration was going to do about that, and how the administration was going to step up the level of conversation. Well, the answer really was kind of innocuous, and he didn't really Make any commitments as to how the administration would be able to do it. And that's so very frustrating because my response to that would be, why isn't President Biden or vice president Harris or anyone else, just including disabilities in the conversations, when they talk about some of the different disenfranchised groups, we hear a lot about what's happening with race, we hear about LG, bt Q, and so on, but we don't hear about disabilities, why it's easy to include us in the conversation. It's easy to raise the level of awareness or at least start to raise the level of awareness by putting us in the conversations and including us regularly, Then, and only then, when we start to see some people like our president and vice president, Attorney General and others, normally, including us in the conversation, then and only then are we going to really see a change in how we're included. Well, enough about that. Let me let you listen to the speech and then we'll come back and again, the title of the speech, as you will hear is moving from diversity to inclusion.
MC 06:16
Okay, we're going to go ahead and get started. Thank you all for coming today. We do have a little housekeeping to do first, I know they're not here, but I would like to apologize to the other presenters during this hour for having to be pitted up against our speaker today. I would like to introduce to you a scholar, comedian, a gentleman. And I don't have all the facts, but I hear he's blind. When are you introducing Michael Hingson?
Michael Hingson 06:52
Well, with all those things, he said, I was wondering when he was going to introduce me and said but Okay, so I want to welcome you to our class on quantum mechanics this afternoon. Today we are going to discuss the Heisenberg uncertainty principle and its impact on the relative behavior of cats in the 21st century. I'm really honored that all of you came and we'll try to make this interesting for you. I want to start with a video. Some of you may have seen this before. But let's start with it. And then we will get into our discussion. And it will be a discussion of moving from diversity to inclusion. So here's a video for you to watch.
Video Narrator 07:36
There's trouble brewing at smart world coffee in Morristown, New Jersey. These two women are trying to apply for a job opening in the kitchen.
Coffee Shop Owner 07:46
Are you here for coffee, or
Applicant #1 07:48
no, Job application?
Video Narrator 07:50
Only to find out it's not open to everyone.
Coffee Shop Owner 07:54
I noticed you were signing.
Applicant #1 07:55
Yeah. That's right. We're deaf.
Video Narrator 07:59
And because of that the manager rejects the application.
Video Narrator 08:07
what he's doing isn't just unfair, it could be illegal.
Coffee Shop Owner 08:12
I'm not gonna hire a deaf person. I'll just let you know now. So we'll save you some time. I mean, your deaf. It's gonna be really hard here to work here.
Video Narrator 08:21
It's the kind of thing that usually happens in secret behind closed doors. But we're putting this discrimination setters stage right out in the open. To answer the question, what would you do?
Video Narrator 08:36
The bias barista, and the deaf applicants are all actors. Hannah Warrick and Maya erielle. Attend the National Technical Institute for the death in Rochester, New York. With more than 1500 students. It's the second largest college for the deaf and hard of hearing in the country. The school helped us develop this idea for the scenario. Students there say finding equal opportunity in the workplace is a big challenge.
Hannah Warrick 09:06
Let me count on my really fantastic Botha to have a really keen understanding of what it means to be a deaf person how to work with deaf people, but at the same time, there are others who should not want to thin or open themselves up to that.
Maya Arielle 09:24
It would be nice for them to think about what what is it like to be a deaf person? I mean, how would they like to go into a place and want to apply for a job and then be discriminated against just because of who you are.
Video Narrator 09:35
Jerry Buckley is the president of MTI D.
Jerry Buckley 09:40
When the President Bush signed the Americans with Disabilities Act, many of us hope that would be the last barrier. What we found out though is that attitude, no barriers were still there, that we have much work to do to educate people.
Video Narrator 09:57
Back at the coffee shop, our cold hearted Manager is busy building his own barriers.
Coffee Shop Owner 10:03
I know I fill out the application, but I'm going to be honest with you, I'm probably not going to hire you.
Video Narrator 10:11
Remember, it's not a question of communicating with customers. This is a kitchen job.
Coffee Shop Owner 10:18
Sure you want to work here?
Applicant #1 10:19
Yeah, it's a kitchen job. Right,
Coffee Shop Owner 10:21
right. Can you hear me?
Applicant #1 10:24
I can't really hear. But I read lips.
Video 10:26
You read lips?
Applicant #1 10:27
Yeah,
Video Narrator 10:28
it's easy to read the look on Kristen gobies face as she watches and growing disbelief.
Coffee Shop Owner 10:34
I just don't think this is the right place. Like if I yell something to the kitchen. You can't hear me.
Video Narrator 10:42
But the manager ignores all those daggers. Christian shoots his way,
Applicant #1 10:47
so I shouldn't even bother with this.
Coffee Shop Owner 10:49
I'm not saying that. I'm just saying I'm not gonna hire you. I can fill it out now. Sorry. Sorry. Is this yours? Ma'am?
Video Narrator 10:57
Coffee isn't the only thing steaming as Christians storms out. The manager played by both male and female actors continues serving up the discrimination.
Shop Owner #2 11:08
We can't hire you.
Video Narrator 11:10
Many customers are right next to the action.
Coffee Shop Owner 11:13
Yeah. But if you can't hear me, how are we going to communicate?
Applicant #1 11:16
You can write stuff down, like make a list there.
Coffee Shop Owner 11:18
But what if I need something done right away.
Video Narrator 11:20
But most don't openly object. A few do stand up to the discriminating manager. But the most surprising reactions come from three customers with something in common. They work in recruiting and human resources,
HR Patron 11:46
human resources, let me give you a piece of advice.
Coffee Shop Owner 11:48
Yeah,
HR Patron 11:48
I probably wouldn't have done that.
HR Patron #2 11:50
you cannot say that.
Coffee Shop Owner 11:52
I want to be honest with
HR Patron #2 11:53
you can't say that. And we can't handle it like that you can come after you can't discriminate.
Coffee Shop Owner 12:00
If only they had stopped right there, these hiring and firing experts would have been heroes, but they didn't listen to the rest of our hidden camera recording. And you'll see why we're not showing you their faces.
12:15
I probably wouldn't have done that. Only because because when you think about it, everybody has rights.
Coffee Shop Owner 12:23
So let her fill it out.
12:25
I just probably would have let her fill it out in your writing note on the back and say not a fit.
Video Narrator 12:31
That's right, the outrageous advice from human resources. write a note on the back of the application that the deaf girl is not a fit. Now listen carefully to this recruiter,
HR Patron #2 12:43
I mean recruiting you can handle it like that you can come after you can't discriminate, just accept it and don't call handicapped people they have no rights and anybody that you have to just accept your application. Just don't call.
Video Narrator 12:59
Just don't call as they continue talking to the managers. Some might wonder if it's discrimination these employment experts disapprove of, or only open discrimination.
Coffee Shop Owner 13:17
So it's not a problem to not hire her because she's deaf is just saying it out loud to her.
Video Narrator 13:26
He did tell the manager that the owner might want to try out the deaf applicant. Still, in the end, it's not a recruiter or someone from human resources. Who takes the strongest stand of all, it's a guy just taking a coffee break. A man who's heard enough,
Coffee Shop Owner 13:44
because you can fill out the application. Feel free to fill it out. I can't stop you from doing that. But I'm just trying to be honest with you.
Coffee Shop Patron 13:51
That's absolutely discriminatory.
Coffee Shop Owner 13:53
If she can't hear me, though, she's
Coffee Shop Patron 13:55
really shocked. And if this is the case, I'm not bringing my business back here. I'm telling you,
Coffee Shop Owner 14:00
I, I understand
Coffee Shop Patron 14:02
You basically said I am not hiring a deaf person. You're not saying I'm not hiring a person that's not qualified.
Coffee Shop Owner 14:08
I'm just trying to be honest with you.
Coffee Shop Patron 14:10
I can appreciate that, sir. But I don't see how you expect things to change in the country, when no one will give anybody a chance. It's an affront, it's an affront to America, or you
Coffee Shop Owner 14:21
can't she can't hear.
Coffee Shop Patron 14:22
So what?
Video Narrator 14:23
Hannah and Maya catch up with him outside.
Maya Arielle 14:27
I really felt so great when you jumped in and tried to help. Thank you so much just for your willingness to do that.
Video Narrator 14:38
You wanted to hug him?
Maya Arielle 14:39
Yeah.
Video Narrator 14:40
What message do you have for people who didn't say anything?
Maya Arielle 14:44
What I would say to those people, is that if you feel that you want to say something, please say something
Video Narrator 14:51
that would be giving you a voice.
Maya Arielle 14:55
Absolutely. That's right.
Video Narrator 15:00
And so as they continue their struggle for equality at work, this reminder to all of us in American Sign Language from students at the National Technical Institute for the Deaf, what would you do?
Michael Hingson 15:17
And there you go. I deliberately call this presentation moving from diversity to inclusion, because as I mentioned this morning, diversity tends not to include anybody with disabilities, it doesn't happen. Over the past year and a half or two years, we have seen any number of situations where there has been discussions of discrimination against women against different races, and so on. And all of that is appropriate to discuss, and all of those battles are absolutely appropriate to fight. But what we never see in all of those discussions, is how anyone with a disability is included in those same battles. If you watch the television show in the dark, which is a new show that I think wb is putting out, it's not a blind person playing the, the woman in the show, it's a sighted person, all they have a blind consultant, but they couldn't find any blind people they say, who could be an actor in the show. I know that, for example, they did not consult with the major consumer organizations of blind people. I have had conversations with people in the movie industry about blind people acting in films. And the comment that is made is well, but the problem is that they're not necessarily qualified to do it. And my question, when I hear that is why have you, for example, tried to find someone, have you included blind people and I'm going to talk about blindness specifically, although it could apply to other disabilities, but I think there is more of a track record of by blind people being excluded in the movie industry. Then in other persons with disabilities. There are people in wheelchairs who have played all in films and so on, although a number of those parts have been played by people not in wheelchairs, they play people wheelchair, quote, bound people. One of the ones I think of most is Raymond bird playing and Ironside's years and years ago, and others and sometimes it happens with deaf people. There is a deaf actress that I know of, and I'm sure there's well there are more than one but Marlee Matlin is, is certainly death, but you don't hear about blind people being included. And the reality is, it won't change until society recognizes that the disability isn't the problem. It's their attitudes. I want to read to you something and again, this is from Dr. Tim brick I mentioned earlier and it is something that is about blind people. This is from an address given by Dr. Tim brick, are we equal to the challenge, and it was delivered at the 1967 convention of the National Federation of the Blind one year before he died of cancer. And Dr. Tim Brooks says, the blind have a right to live in the world. What a concept, the right to live in the world. That right is as deep as human nature as pervasive as the need for social existence, as ubiquitous as the human race, as invincible as the human spirit. As their souls are their own. So their destiny must be their own. their salvation or failure lies within their own choice and responsibility. That choice cannot be precluded, or pre judged. Those lives cannot be pre determined or controlled.
Michael Hingson 19:36
And Dr. Tambora made those comments to talk about the fact that we have the same as blind people or any person with a disability, the same right to live in the world as anyone else. And that was what those three HR people I told some of the HR people outside I was gonna probably be in Trouble, sorry. But that is what those HR people were challenging and what they were really saying, they don't truly believe we have the same right to live in the world. They were saying ultimately, that we don't really have equal status with everyone else. If they truly believed that we did, they would never have given the advice that they did to the actor barista. And that is what inclusion is all about. Diversity has already moved on and not included us. So it is time that we really talk about the concept of inclusion. And as I said to all of you this morning, you are on the front lines, because you are in schools, teaching children, teaching other adults, and hopefully taking this stand to say, we truly believe in inclusion. And it is true that not everyone has the same capabilities as everyone else. But if we're going to talk about developmental disabilities, for example, let's talk about every politician in Washington somehow they take dumb pills, I'm not sure what it is. But when they go to Washington, they do something to dumb down. That has to be the case. But the bottom line is that we have to demand higher criteria and higher expectations. For every person with a disability, it doesn't necessarily mean that every person with a disability is going to be able to do every single job. Just like every sighted person or every so called person with it and who is not one with a disability can do every job. Most people wouldn't even have the first clue about what Schrodinger equation and Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle are all about. I do. But I got that training.
Michael Hingson 22:01
Many people don't have the courage to step out of of their own comfort zone in their own environment. When I lived in New Jersey, I knew people who live within 10 miles of New York City, who were adults, and had never ever been to the city and never wanted to go because they didn't want to be in that environment. They were afraid to go. My wife on the other hand, growing up in California, being in a wheelchair driving all over the place one day had to drive me into New York. It wasn't her first time. But it was one of the first times that she drove us into the city. We came through the tunnel and came out at 40 a street turn left to go north. And I said you realize that we have to turn on 41st Street. And she slammed on the brakes, turned all the way across five lanes of traffic and made it right onto 41st Street and is very proud of the fact that she did it with a single person honking their horn at her. She arrived with a far as a driver. My wife had the courage and has the courage to take those steps. My wife was very much involved in as I was the International Year of the disabled year many many years ago in terms of helping to celebrate it, helping to assist people and celebrating and, and so on. We both in various ways we're involved in a variety of efforts to deal with various issues regarding persons with disabilities. And not everyone can do that. I've spent time in Washington debating with congressional types, and others about issues concerning persons with disabilities. One of the more recent issues regards the fact that under the Fair Labor Standards Act in this country today, section 14 C, which created sheltered workshops, says that you can pay a person with a disability if you can prove that they can't work as competitively as anyone else, you can pay them less than minimum wage. When that act was formed in 1938. The rule was you could pay no more no less than 75% of minimum wage because workshops were set up to be training institutions. All over the years since 1938. Workshops organized themselves loosely together and got the law changed originally so that the floor dropped from 75% to 50%. Then it went down lower to the point where today, the floor is at zero. And there are people who have disabilities including some blind people who get zero. And they work at the sheltered workshops. I know of college graduates who are blind who couldn't find a job and their departments of rehabilitation, put them into sheltered workshops, where they're getting paid to $2.50 $3 an hour to do the work that other people get paid much higher salaries outside of the workshop environment and Of course, the workshop owners say but, you know, we don't want them to lose their SSI. These workshop people are the same ones who created their workshops as 501 c three nonprofit organizations and solicit donations to help fund the workshops. They get special subsidized contracts under the the federal government programs, including what is allowed under Section 14 C, and they have developed ways to make sure that their workers can't possibly do the job so that they can get the exemptions to pay people less than minimum wage. And they get guaranteed contracts, they have ways of triple dipping these owners or managers of these workshops to get six and seven figures, while their employees may get 20 cents an hour. It happens today. It happens because people with disabilities are not included in society. And and it are not viewed as having the same rights as everyone else. It won't change until all of us take a stand and say, yes, it doesn't matter whether someone has a so called disability. I don't like the term disability. But you know what, it doesn't really matter. It's just a word. And it doesn't necessarily mean in competence or a lack of capability. It is just one way that people describe a subset of society, just like people who are left handed are called left handed and it describes a certain segment of society. And in the past, there were times that people who were left handed were viewed as less competent, or certainly had problems that normal people in society don't have.
Michael Hingson 26:46
The fact is that we collectively have to make that change. And I'm challenging you and putting the pressure on you to say you are part of what that change has to be. Jimmy Carter, former President Carter once said, We must adjust to changing times while holding to unwavering principles. And if the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution mean anything, then those principles must include all persons. All of us have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And as the Declaration of Independence says, I'm not trying to be sexist, all men are created equal. But we really know that that means all persons are created equal in today's society. We have to change it. And it won't change unless we take some stands and make those changes occur. I know it's a tough job. I told you all this morning about my parents who took some stands regarding me and being blind. But I also there are a lot of parents who won't do that. I don't dare let my child go out on their own. They're blind. After all, how could they ride a bike, I rode a bike when I was growing up. I wrote it all over the neighborhood. Let me tell you a story about riding my bike one day. So there I was out riding my 20 inch bike I was seven years old right now all around the neighborhood having a good old time, right? going anywhere I wanted to go going up Stan Ridge Avenue, going over to Third Street East going, going west to Glen Raven, and two Second Street and all that riding all over the place. In many days, I would ride my bike to school to yukka school, but I was in the first second and third grade. Well, second third grade because I didn't have my bike when I was in the first grade, but riding my bike to school along with my brother riding his bike, and we had a good time doing that while I was out riding my bike one day. And I came home after being out for a couple hours having fun and just doing what I did. And as I walked in the door after putting the bike in the garage, the phone rang. My father picked up the phone. By the way, if you bought Thunder dog, you'll see this story in there. It's still one of my favorite stories. My father picked up the phone said hello. And here's the way the conversation when I picked up from his side and what he told me later. So he answers again and he says hello. And this guy says I'm calling about your kid riding his bike out on the street. And my dad said, Okay, what about it was out riding his bike? And my dad said, Well, yeah, all the time. What's the problem? No, no, I'm not talking about the older kid. The one that can see I'm talking about the blind kid. He was out riding his bike. And my dad said, Well, yeah, what about it? Well, but he's blind. Yeah, he's out riding his bike. Yeah. What about it? bass blind? My dad said, Did he hit anyone? Well, no. Did anyone hit him? No. Did he? Did he pass cars? Or did cars come down the street? And did he have any problems with any of them? Well, no. Did he hit any Park cars? No. Did he get hurt in any way? Well, no. Well, then what's the problem? The guy hung up. He could not deal With the fact that there was a blind child riding a bike out on his Street, I was in 1957. Let's fast forward to 2000 well to 1997. My wife and I moved to New Jersey. And we joined the Cranford United Methodist Church. And we went to the first yearly meeting of the church with the essentially the meeting of the corporation. And during the meeting, they talked about one thing and another. And they finally got to the fact that they were very interested in making accessible restrooms available at the church. Right now. They had a very steep ramp, it had a slope of probably about 45 degrees. So it was certainly not something that was truly accessible, you had to fold it down, and then go down the three steps on this ramp to get to the fellowship hall unless you walked all the way around, outside and in which didn't work well and snow. And there really wasn't an accessible restroom down there, there was something that kind of served as one but there wasn't. And they were very concerned about wanting to make accessibility possible in the church. And they were proud of the fact that in the last 10 years, they had raised $10,000, toward making accessibility possible 10 years to get $10,000, which wouldn't even be enough to probably get functioning legitimate, approved architectural drawings. However, they were very excited about that. And my wife spoke up and said, What are you guys doing?
Michael Hingson 31:38
Well, we want accessibility. We want accessible restrooms, not with $10,000. You know, what are you going to do about that? Well, we're working on it. And my wife said, Look, you guys, we need to get true accessibility in the church. Let's start a fundraising campaign. Well, they wanted to put her in charge of it, of course, churches, and everybody always wants to do that. So they, they discussed it one side up and down the other and so on, and my wife agreed that she would be part of it, but only if some of the other leadership in the church would be involved. Within three months, they raised over $100,000 in pledges, and they actually started getting the money in and they began work on the accessible process. It included making elevators that would go from the congregational. Well, from the main church, the synagogue, that not synagogue, but from the main church down to fellowship hall where they wanted to put the accessible restrooms, and they started, the first thing they did was to make some accessible pews in the church. And the way they did that was they cut a couple of sections out of a couple of the pews in the middle of the church so that people in wheelchairs would have a place not off to one side, but right in the middle of the place to sit with everyone else. As that process started some of the old guard in this Cranford United Methodist Church that was nearly 150 years old, started taking exception to cutting up their pews a little bit. And they called the fire marshal. They call it the fire chief in Cranford. And they said, they're messing up our church, they're cutting up the pews. They're putting the possibility of people in wheelchairs sitting in the middle of the church. And if there's a fire, how are they going to get out? Well, there was one accessible way to get out. But to go out the front of the church, you couldn't because it was down steps. And the fire marshal said, well, sounds pretty serious to me. You know, we need to deal with that. The pastor wouldn't confront the fire chief. Some of the other people on the committee's wouldn't confront the fire chief. So finally, my wife decided if you guys aren't going to do it, I will. And she called up the fire chief said, I understand you've had some complaints, can we talk about it? And he said, Sure. Here's the problem. If you want to get out of the church, you're in your wheelchair, how you going to get out if the exits blocked? And my wife said, Well, if you're going to shut the church down and stop our efforts for doing that, are you going to go to the local Pathmark grocery store that has only one accessible exit and you're going to close it down? Well, no, we've approved it. Yeah, exactly. Right. And the fire marshal said, but you know, how? How are you making sure that you're obeying all the architectural rules? Do you have an architect drawing up all the drawings? Do you know the name Ron Meeks, sir? Yeah, he's the architect for the city. Yeah, he's also the guy that's doing our drawings Hello. The people couldn't tolerate a person in a chair being in their church. It got worse. The church had a Boy Scout troop. And as the elevators started to go in some of the exits that people would normally use to go into fellowship hall directly from the church were blocked. So they had to go outside and walk around just like people in wheelchairs. had to do. And one day my wife was confronted by one of these people saying you are messing up our church, and he and we have a scout dinner coming up, you better have this cleaned up by the time our scout dinner comes. Where's the priority? Where is their true belief in God, much less Anything else? Folks, it happens today. There are constantly blind couples who have children who are challenged by departments of family and social services. And there are attempts and sometimes successful ones, at least for a while, take take children away, because the presumption is blind couples cannot possibly raise children. It takes battles in the courts to change it. And they go on today, I'm only telling you all this, and I'm only talking about this because I want you to see that this is an ongoing problem. And it isn't going to change. Until we start having discussions. I'm looking forward to getting home. And watching the view we watched the view every every day or most days, a lot of fun will be is is a hoot. And all those people are last month Ace celebrated Spanish Heritage Month, gonna be interested to see if they're doing anything about the fact that this is blindness Awareness Month meet the blind month and nationally built national disabilities Awareness Month.
Michael Hingson 36:28
Are they talking about successful persons with all sorts of disabilities? I wonder they haven't in past years, I hope they are this year. But if they're not, we'll just have to see we can write on Facebook about it. And I urge you, if you have the opportunity to watch the show, record it and see and if they're not call them on it. Put it out on Facebook, why aren't you celebrating the fact that we have a rich heritage of persons who don't have the same abilities as some of us who may have senior or super abilities compared to some of us? But why aren't you celebrating those people like you do other parts of society, we have African American Awareness Month, black, our Black History Month in February, we have all sorts of different things. So I'll be interested to see when I go home, if in fact, they're doing anything with disabilities, we'll see. But all of you, I recognize also have a challenge. Because if you start talking about some of these things, and really start encouraging your students, and your parents aren't ready to step out. They're going to challenge you. But I go back to Jimmy Carter, somewhere along the line, we have to hold to unwavering principles and blindness or other disabilities are not really the issue. It's attitudes. blind children ought to be able to come to school, there are blind kids in this country who are in high school who have guide dogs, and school administration has tried to keep the guide dog out of the school. Well, we don't know we can't be responsible, excuse me, chair here, the Americans with Disabilities Act. Do you know what a guide dog is? Do you know what a trained service animal is? And do you understand that under the law, people can bring those dogs to school. So it is a challenge in a lot of ways. And I've seen parents mightily fight back when teachers want to teach Braille, and teach Sally to read Braille, not just print, because Sally will never be a good reader of just reading print. And Sally might in fact, at some point go blind, totally blind in her life. And are you going to give her the training in advance? Or is she going to have to go back and psychologically readjust, not recognizing that blindness is just as normal as everything else. And that's the kind of thing that we need to look at. And we need to address. I could go on and give you other examples. But I think I'd like to stop, because I'd like to hear some of your thoughts. I'd like to see if you have questions and open this up for discussion a little bit. And I don't know that we have a roving mic. So I'll repeat questions. But if any of you have a question, why don't you speak up? And or if you want to say something, speak up or come up here and use the mic or whatever, just don't raise your hands because we know that doesn't work, right. Anyone?
MC 39:22
And I do have a roving mic.
39:24
Oh, you've got a roving mic. All right. So we have the man with the microphone who'd like to start this off.
Audience Member #1 39:30
I just wanted to say that I really appreciate you giving me a different perspective of looking at challenges that everybody has. We talk a lot about emotional challenges. We talk about physical challenges, but I love the way that you bring humor to it. And the real the real way that you talk about it, not making it politically correct. Not trying to appease everybody, but your perspective and your strength and doing that. So thanks
Michael Hingson 40:00
Thank you, I believe that I will sell say that I believe that my perspective is one that is evolved over time, one with which many persons with disabilities, blind people, for example, have go to nfb.org website of the National Federation of the Blind, you'll read a lot there, you'll read about the Fair Labor Standards Act, we could talk, we just don't have time about the fact that until the mid 1980s, no person with a disability could buy life insurance, because insurance companies said that we were a higher risk. That's a longer story than we have time to tell. But, you know, invite me to your districts, and I'll be glad to tell that story. It's a great story. Today, we can buy life insurance. And it's because people who were blind with other disabilities prove to the insurance industry that they were simply prejudice, and that they in fact, weren't even obeying their own precepts and criteria for providing insurance. Another story, though, next. He's walking, so we must have someone
Audience Member #2 41:03
Hi, thank you. I'm a low incidence disability specialist. And oftentimes, we have challenges. I'll use the word challenges with Jenna teachers. You know, they'll say, Well, you know, according to Union, I only have to plan like a week in advance. And oftentimes, it's shorter than that. And that doesn't give our Braille technician a whole lot of time to Braille. What are included blind students need in the gen ed classroom? Do you have suggestions for bringing humor to the conversation, so that the gen ed teacher can come a little bit more to our side and and meet in the middle.
Michael Hingson 41:50
Under the law today, textbooks are required to be stored in a repository at the state and the federal level, and made available to anyone who needs them, and they're in electronic form. And point being that if you have access to a Braille embosser, the books are already available, I got news in Boston, you don't have to spend a lot of time transcribing them. They are available today, that law has been passed. Here's an ironic story talking about people with disabilities and some of the myopic views that even they have a former commissioner of the Rehabilitation Services Administration, Dr. Fred Schroeder, back in 1997, went to the National Association of persons with disabilities meeting in San Diego. And he said, we are trying to get legislation passed at the federal level and so on dealing with requiring that Braille be taught to all blind children while they're in school using the definition of blindness that I mentioned earlier. And we would like your help in supporting that legislation. The organization said, No, we can't do that. That's a blindness thing. It doesn't deal with people with disabilities in general. So you got to take it to blind people. It isn't just outside of the system. Yet those same people want support when we're dealing with ramps and other kinds of things. But you know, it's and and all should be supported. But I would, I would say that it's an excuse, because the law already requires. And there are already facilities that have all those books in electronic format. And those teachers should know how to access those. So that all you got to do is awesome. It's not magic. And you know what the other side of it is? That isn't even an excuse. What are you talking about? Do you want our children to learn or not? Why are you coming up with the excuse? I would also say, why is it that we only have to have a week, you know, when I was in college, I would go to my college professors a quarter or more in advance, and say, I need to know what textbooks you're going to use in this class, so that I can get them put in Braille. And you know, professors don't want to give you that information. It's not time yet I haven't even made a decision. And it took a lot of effort to get some of those professors to recognize that I wasn't going to have access to the books, if they didn't give me the information up front. And it wasn't, we didn't have the ADA back in 1968 through 76 when I was going through college, and in fact, one instructor gave us a title of a book. That wasn't the title of the book that they ended up using. So I didn't even have the textbook for the first two thirds of the quarter we were studying it. I did get an A in the class. But in spite of what the professor did, I don't think it was deliberate. But, you know, at the college level, even now, in the college level, we're working to get similar legislation passed so that college texts are made available in electronic form and stored in a repository. But that does exist today. So there's no excuse for them doing that. And, you know, I don't know how best to do it with a lot of humor other than to say, you know, well, you know, I'll tell you what we'll we'll start preparing TV shows for you to watch when, you know when we get around to it, and you know, you may miss mom, or you may miss Grey's Anatomy or any other shows, because we're just not going to have them ready in time. And we're not going to let your VCR turn on until we're ready, and we have it ready for you to take. So there's, there's no easy way to do it. Because it's inexcusable. And it's a number of those same teachers who really don't want to teach blind kids Braille, because you don't need them. You don't need to do that you can get the book in electronic form. That's right, so can you and you could put it in Braille. But you can get an electronic form so the students can just listen to it. You ever tried to do a graduate or even undergraduate physics course and study mathematical equations from a recording? It is not trivial to do? It, it isn't the way to do it. Blind people need to learn to read and write and spell and do grammar and math just like anyone else. And teachers have no right to prevent that, or discourage that from happening. And in fact, they should embrace it. And I don't know how else to say it, which isn't necessarily funny. But nevertheless, that's what needs to happen. Does that help?
Audience Member #2 46:28
Yeah, I think sometimes. The issue also is, as we're moving into, like a one to one district, Chromebook, a lot of teachers are pulling stuff for Google classroom, and of not textbooks anymore. So right, I mean, we go through and get all the textbooks, and they're available in Braille to the students. But teachers are pulling stuff off the fly. And, you know, it's all I can do to keep up sometimes to get,
Michael Hingson 46:56
oh, I hear you to get
Audience Member #2 46:57
someone in real time Braille in it as they're reading or, you know, for that student that needs Braille or doing like the, the text to speech. I mean, it's like, I just want to make it accessible. That's all.
Michael Hingson 47:10
So let me ask you this teacher. Do you believe in obeying the law? Yes. Great. Glad to hear it. Do you know what the Americans know? I'm, I'm asking you to role model not be yourself. But do you know what the Americans with Disabilities Act? Is? You ever heard of it? You think you've heard of it? Let me tell you about the ADA. It says that, that companies, schools, organizations, and so on, are required under the law to make reasonable accommodations to make material available and to make jobs available and schools available to persons who happen to have a disability, in this case being blind. And the reality is, if you're pulling all this stuff up, and you're using inaccessible material, you are breaking the law. Do you really want to do that? Because if you do, maybe we need to have another discussion. Yes, I know what the teachers are doing. And we have battles with Google and work and are working with Google to make sure that their material is accessible. And a lot of it is and the teachers either have the obligation to pull the accessible material off, or work with you in an appropriate timeframe to find that material, because a lot of it is accessible. And if the teachers aren't going to the right place, then they are doing a disservice to people in their classroom, they cannot discriminate against certain segments of the population. You know, if we're gonna do that, let's turn the lights off. So none of the kids have to worry about wasting electricity. You know, you can't have it both ways teachers, and I hear what you're saying. But they need to do proper lesson planning. That's what it's about. And that's what I learned as a teacher. And if that means I've got to deal with certain things for students who may not use the same material in the same way, if I'm going to be a real teacher in society, I'm obligated to make sure that I work on that. They don't like that, necessarily. But that's what they're supposed to do. Because that's what the law says. And I and I, that may or may not be the answer that you want, that may not be an easy answer to give. But that's what the law says, right? And so push that and educate your principal. And if you need help, I'll find you people who can help with that. But they are breaking the law when they're not making their material available in an accessible form. And most of the time, it probably is available somewhere in an accessible form. So if they can't do it, or they don't want to do it, and you're the expert, they need to give you the time, and give you the information far enough in advance that you can find it or find someone who can help you find it and I can certainly connect you with people who can most likely help you find it if you can't, and I'm glad to do that.
Michael Hingson 50:00
Next. Who have we taken such a hard line no one else has anything to say.
MC 50:08
We have one over here.
Audience Member #3 50:09
This is probably not them. But anyways, when I was about 1718 years of age, my mother worked for a chiropractor who happened to be blind. To be a chiropractor, you have to go med school and everything else. And for a female that's very hard to do. And she was born blind. And my mother said, you want a job? And I said, Oh, sure, I'll make some extra money. You can take her up. This was an Oak Park, Illinois, Chicago native. And I took her up into Barrington because she was horseback rider. She was getting pay me money, I relate to do that. At that point, I was I loved horses, I said, Forget the money, I'll just take a ride a lesson while you're doing yours. She was a fanatic rider. It was amazing. I was just like, I couldn't believe it. She was better than me. And temper that, that capability to be able to do that. It just at that age, at that point, I had a communication with someone with a disability that I had to help, you know, every weekend. And from there, it was just like, now when people you'll everyone hears this, and I hate correcting people. And I just heard Mike say this. And you'll hear many people say, Oh, yeah, I see what you're saying. No, you don't see what you're saying. You can hear what they're saying. You don't see what they're saying. And bring it back. Listen for that. You can listen to the most intelligent person. And then they start saying, Yeah, I see what you're saying. I'm like, Oh, my God. I respect Yeah, I was just like, Whoa, No, you can't. And you're like, catch him on it. But it's true. Yes, you can hear what you're saying. And we have all these senses about us, not just her sight. And we're going to use as many as we can to make us the better person. So thank you, Mike, for bringing that to our attention.
Michael Hingson 51:56
I know we're about out of time. Thank you. I've got one more story. One another story. sirius xm 167. Canada talks radio. Gentlemen contacted me, Ari Silva, who has a show, I think his last name was silver on Canada talks every Tuesday afternoon 4pm to 5pm pacific time. And he wanted to interview me about the World Trade Center and on my story, and so on. So I was on for the last 15 minutes of the show. The first part of the show, they were talking about all the problems that Justin Trudeau the Prime Minister is having because he appeared once in blackface. And now people are blasting him for that, which is totally ridiculous. It has nothing to do with his political qualifications. It has nothing to do with anything other than the fact that 20 some odd years ago, he did that. So he did, right. What does it have to do today? Anyway, so the time came for me to be interviewed. And we started chatting, and already started talking all about blindness and blind people and all that we had a great discussion about all sorts of stuff, never did get to the World Trade Center. But we had a long conversation about a lot of the issues concerning blindness. And one of the things that we talked about was the fact that he had the opportunity to participate in a dining and the dark function. y'all heard of dining in the dark, one of the worst concepts in society regarding blind people today. So Ari, starts talking about it. And he said, I walked into this place. And he said, I've got a friend who's blind, a lawyer that I know, he's a young man, and I've been mentoring him some in some areas. And I walked into this dining in the dark thing, and I became totally petrified, I walked out, and ice. And so I said to him, what did you learn? He said, that is a real scary thing to have to do. And I said, wrong answer. But let me ask you this. Why is it scary? Well, because it's not easy to do. I said, wrong answer. The answer really is, you didn't have training, you didn't learn how to function as a blind person. And you're not going to learn it in that environment. And that's the problem with dining in the dark. People go in, and they if they can eat their food, without creating much of a mess, they think they're really successful, but they haven't learned anything about blindness. I told Ari, go get yourself a white cane and a pair of dark glasses, put the glasses on, and walk up and down the streets in Toronto, where he lived. And look at how people observe you and the expressions and the things that they do. And the way they look at you, then you're going to see something about how we're viewed. The reality is dining in the dark is disgusting. It teaches you nothing because you don't have the training, you don't have the background. You don't have the basis for an understanding of what blindness is. And the result of that is you're not going to have a good experience. And all it's going to do is reinforce a lot of poor attitudes and misconceptions about blindness. It isn't going to change anything. We shouldn't have that. And unfortunately, there are so many blindness agencies that think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread because people come and they donate and all that. But all they're doing is an incredible disservice to blind people who want to live in the world, and who have the same right to do that, as anyone else. I think we've run out of time. And so we're going to have to stop. So thank you very much. I'd love to come and work with any of you at your districts. And if you haven't gotten our card yet, come up, I've got a, I've got some business cards, I'd love to speak in your districts. And I hope that we can work together. But thank you again for inviting us to come and be a part of this today.
Michael Hingson 55:44
And there we are. I want to thank you again, for listening to unstoppable mindset today. And I hope that you found this presentation pretty interesting, and that you maybe come away with a little bit of a different view about not only disabilities, but how we can and should be included in the conversation. You know, one of the things that I love to do a lot is to ask the question, what is it you think a blind person cannot do? And when I asked that question, one of the common responses is drive a car. And as we discuss on a regular basis, you think so go visit WWW.blinddriverchallenge.org. That's WWW.blinddriverchallenge.org. And watch the video of Mark riccobono, who is now the president of the National Federation of the Blind, driving a Ford Escape completely independently, without any assistance from any sighted person or any autonomous vehicle technology. He drives a car, a Ford Escape around the Daytona Speedway right before the 2011 Rolex 24 race, you'll see it all at blind driver challenge. Next week, we're going to do something a little bit different. And that is that I'm going to be interviewed and we're going to talk a lot about accessibility. We're going to talk about some of the reasons that I got into doing podcasts and other sorts of things. And then after next week's show, will not only have me making remarks from time to time, but we're going to start interviewing other people. So you don't get to listen to me all the time. Or maybe I should say you don't have to listen to me all the time. You'll get to hear other people, but we'll get there. Anyway, thanks for listening. Thanks for joining us on episode two of unstoppable mindset.
Michael Hingson 57:51
You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week
1 hr
October 08, 2021 Episode 1 – Unstoppable Mindset
Michael Hingson, shares his Keynote speech created on October 3 2019 at an event sponsored by San Joaquin County Office of Education, CEDR Systems help in Monte Ray, CA. There were nearly 1,000 people in attendance at this keynote address delivered by Mr. Hingson to kick off the 2019 Inclusion Collaborative conference. In this presentation, Mike Hingson discussed his life experiences as a student who happened to be blind. He discussed some of the challenges he faced as well as how he prepared to overcome them. As a major part of this talk and our inaugural podcast episode, Mike tells his story of emergency preparation and how he was able to use his knowledge and his unstoppable mindset to survive the terrorist attack on Tower One of the World Trade Center.
Some directories do not show full show notes. For the complete transcription please visit: https://michaelhingson.com/podcast
About the Host:
Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.
Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is an Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.
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Transcription Notes:
Michael Hingson 00:00
Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast we're inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.
Michael Hingson 01:19
I really am honored to be here. I am, I guess in a sense, a product of special education in California. Let me tell you a little bit about me. In all seriousness, I was born in 1950, February 24 1950. You can do the math. Yes, I'm 69. People say I don't sound it. So I'm very happy about that. And I hope that that continues for a long time. But I was born sighted. But I was born two months premature. And the result of that was that I was put in an incubator with a pure oxygen environment. You've probably heard something about what today is called retinopathy of prematurity, which back in the day, I don't where that expression came from, but it was called retro dentro fibro pleasure. It was something that was discovered and named by Dr. Arnold Patz at the Wilmer Eye Institute. I had the pleasure of meeting him a few years ago before he passed, and we discussed what was originally called rlf, which is now our LP, but the bottom line is, is I was put in an incubator, the retina malformed and I became blind after about two days. We didn't know that for a while. I certainly didn't know it, but my parents didn't know it. About four months after I was born, an aunt said to my mother, you know, he's not really reacting to sunlight. I wonder if there's something wrong with his eyes? Well, sure enough, we went to the hospital and the doctors eventually came out and said, PSC is blind, you can't see. And you should send him to a home because you shouldn't keep him with you. If you do, he will not be good for your family. He'll certainly make it harder for your older son who can see who was two years old, you should send him to home. My father had an eighth grade education. My mother had a high school diploma and they told the learning Medical Society in Chicago nuts, too, you were taking him home. The doctor said he'll never be able to contribute to society and they said sure he will. It doesn't matter if he's blind or not. What matters is what he learns. These people who certainly didn't have the the vast knowledge of the learned medical profession in Chicago, bucked the system, I did go home. I was born on the south side of Chicago.
Michael Hingson 03:47
If we if we take geraldo rivera into account two blocks from Al Capone's private vault, but I was born in Chicago, I grew up there for five years, went to the candy store when I was old enough to do it with my brother and cousins, who lived next door every day and walked around the neighborhood and so on and did it just like anyone else. I never even thought about it because my parents didn't think about it. They were risk takers, although I'm sure they didn't think of it that way. But they were they let me go outside and be a part of the rest of the kids in the neighborhood and growing up. They although I didn't know it early on, were a part of a group of parents who fought for special education classes for blind kids see, there were a number of premature births. During the baby boomer era, it actually brought the average age of blind people down from 67 to 65. Because there were so many, but there were enough in Chicago, my parents fought with other parents for special education classes. Well, kindergarten starts at age of four in Chicago. And so at four years old, I went to Korea In the garden in a special class with a teacher who was going to teach me and a bunch of other blind kids something about school, I actually began to learn Braille in kindergarten. I remember I wish I still had it. I remember, she, in teaching me Braille said, the best way for you to learn Braille is to write something. I'm going to read you a story about nasturtiums. Anybody know how to spell illustrations, I don't remember. But I had to write the story down that was in what was called grade one or uncontracted Braille. I had learned grade two yet, but I learned the Braille alphabet in kindergarten, hello. And then my father was offered a job in Southern California and we moved to California, Palmdale, California. And the problem with moving to Palmdale, California was that there were no provisions at all for blind or any other kinds of kids with what we call today's disabilities, or special needs, or whatever you politically want to call it. I'm not really a great fan of political correctness. So let me be real blunt, I am blind, I'm not vision impaired, I don't have a visual handicap, I am blind. By the way, I am trying to help start a movement, what I am not is visually impaired. The last time I checked, being blind didn't have any effect on how you looked. So visually impaired really doesn't count. If you're going to do it, vision impaired is more accurate than visually impaired because I really probably would look the same. If I am blind or sighted. We'll deal with the glasses later. I normally don't wear glasses, but that's another story and we'll get to it. vision impaired I understand visually impaired really is ridiculous. But it's the term that people have used. So you need to help us change the habit. But in reality, I am blind. Let me define blind. A person is blind when they lose enough of their eyesight that they have to use. Let me rephrase that, that they will use alternative techniques to eyesight in order to accomplish tasks, whether it be reading or whatever, yes, you can get very thick lens glasses or CCTVs, and so on, to help a person use their eyesight to read, but they're blind by any standard of intelligence. If you think about it, they are blind, not that they don't have any eyesight, but they have to use alternative techniques. And they don't have to use eyesight. I have been in environments I've been involved in projects as an adult, where I've been in special education, schools where we've been discussing how to teach Braille reading and so on. And I've had teachers who would come up to me and talk about the fact that they have kids who are blind and kids who have some eyesight. They're legally blind, but not totally blind. Sally has some eyesight Johnny doesn't have any Sally gets to reprint Johnny has to read Braille.
Michael Hingson 08:05
That attitude is so backward, or it should be considered backward. The problem is Sally may get to reprint, but she's going to have headaches, she's going to read very slow. And if Johnny gets to truly learn Braille, he's going to be reading at several 100 words a minute, while Sally is kind of poking along, and having headaches and not doing very well. I have no problem with children or adults using their eyes. If they have eyesight, I do have a problem with them not also having the opportunity to learn the techniques that blind people use. Because if they learn those techniques, then you they can use both worlds to live much more productive lives. And so for those of you who are special ed teachers, even if your children have some eyesight, and even if the parents resist, try to push back, they need to learn Braille. A lot of special education teachers have said to me well, but blind people don't need Braille anymore. It's passe. You can listen to books and so on. You've got recordings we've now got Of course, files and you can use synthetic speech to hear the books read. Yeah, listen to one of those books with synthetic speech and see how much you enjoy it. But But yes, it's available. But my question to any of those people is tell me why you still teach sighted kids to read print? My they could watch cartoons, they could watch TV? Why do they need to learn to read print? The bottom line is blindness isn't the problem that I face. The problem I face consists truly of the attitudes and misconceptions that people have about blindness and it still comes back down to the fact that in reality people think That blind people can't truly be as productive in society as people who can see. Ah, and I wanted to do something before we go on how many heroes special ed teachers? Let me just see. Alright, how many are HR people? All right, a few of you get it. So I'm going to stop right now and say for those of you who didn't clap, how many of you think it's bright when a lecturer asks you a question and they're blind that you raise your hands? And you prove my point. So the bottom line is blindness isn't the problem. There are so many people in the world who are blind who have accomplished every bit as much if not more than most people in society, because they've learned that eyesight isn't really the gating factor. The gating factor are our attitudes about blindness. Jacob Salatin was a cardiologist who didn't live a long life. I think he died at 36. He was in the early he lived in the early 1900s. He was blind. And he was one of the most famous heart doctors in the Chicago area. There's a book about him called the good doctor, you gotta try to find it and read it. It's fascinating read. There are so many others. Jacobus tenbroek, was the founder of the National Federation of the Blind. He was born in Canada, but lost his eyesight at the age of seven lived most of his life in the United States. Dr. Tim Brooke, was taught by Dr. Newell Perry in in Albany at the School for the Blind at that time, and learned that in fact, he could do whatever he chose to do blindness was the problem. Dr. Tim Brooke went through the standard education courses and eventually had I had taken lectureships in at the University of California at Berkeley, did his undergraduate work there, he wanted to go into law. But when he graduated, and expressed that interest, the school said, No, you can't because a blind person can't do that. You could get a degree in psychology, you can get your PhD in psychology. But you can't get a law degree because blind people can't do that way too much reading way too complicated. So Dr. Tim Britt bowed to the pressure and got his degree in psychology, and then was hired to teach at UC Berkeley.
Michael Hingson 12:29
I don't remember the exact year but somewhere along the line, he was asked to chair the speech department at the University of California at Berkeley. Now Dr. Tim Brooke, who was by then married to his wife, Hazel was pretty bright guy and kind of guy. Dr. Hambrick, accepted the position and said to the entire university, I want faculty members to join my speech department. But if you're going to join this department, what you need to understand is that you have to undertake a discipline, different from your discipline of education. So if you're a physicist, for example, and you want to join my department, you got to do research on something other than physics, you can tie it back to physics, but you have to do something other than physics is your main effort of work in our department. Well, Dr. Turmeric was one of these guys who believed in practicing what he preached, what do you think that he decided to do his discipline on? Dr. temperate became one of the foremost constitutional law scholars of the 20th century. There are still many cases that use his treatise is on tort law. And many examples of his works on discrimination and so on, are used today. In 1940, he formed with others, the National Federation of the Blind, the largest organization of blind people, consumers in the United States. And we don't have time to go into a lot of his work. But the point is, it didn't matter that he was buying, he did get to law. And he did it in a roundabout way. But he did it in a way that the university had to accept. And they loved him for it, in fact that Dr. Tim Burke was one of the few people in California who has ever been asked by both political parties to run for the United States Senate. And that happened after senator Claire angle, had a stroke and and he obviously could not continue as a senator and passed away. Dr. Tamarack was asked by both parties to run and he refused. Because he was enjoying his work with the National Federation of the Blind. He was involved in forming the Free Speech Movement at UC Berkeley and so on and doing so much constitutional law work. He knew that's what he needed to do. blindness isn't the problem. And so the question that all of you need to consider is are you going to hold people back? Or are you going to truly embrace a positive philosophy That says bind people bind students can do whatever they choose. And we're going to challenge them just like we would challenge any other student. And we're going to challenge them to do the best that they can truly do. And we're going to help teach them what they need. And sometimes that's going to mean you need to do as much work to educate parents. Because parents are frightened. They don't know. They're victims. I won't say products. They're victims of the same society that has negative attitudes about blindness. And I know there's only so much you can do, but you can set the tone. All of you here, not just in special education, but all of you here can set the tone. To give you an example of the kinds of attitudes that I faced. We moved to Victorville California in 2014. Where do you live in Victorville? Where do you live? Okay, we live in Spring Valley lake. Yeah. Other side. We chose property and build a house on it. My wife happens to be in a wheelchair and it's been in a chair her whole life. So we, we knew that if you buy a house and modify it, it costs a lot of money. If you build a house, it doesn't cost anything to build in the accessibility. And we found a piece of property very close to the Victorville Spring Valley Lake Country Club. So we get to walk to breakfast, or to go to dinner when we want to go out to eat, which is great. Anyway, before we moved to Victorville, in 2013, my wife and I were in an IKEA store with a couple of other people. And this young 13 year old boy comes up to me and he says, I'm sorry. And I stood there for a second. I said, Well, what are you sorry about? Well, because you can't see. I didn't know this kid. But that was his attitude. And I probably didn't answer in the best way that I could. But I said, Well, I'm sorry that you can because you don't get what I get.
Michael Hingson 17:05
And by that time, his mother saw that he was tying this blanket and called him away and told him that not bothered the blind man. But you know, the bottom line is, we're no different than anyone else. We don't have the disability that all of you house. You know, in the 1800s, Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb. Why did he do that? Because as we now understand, with the Americans with Disabilities Act, it was a reasonable accommodation for light dependent people who can't function in the dark.
Michael Hingson 17:39
You light dependent people I know there are more of you than there are of me. But we're gonna get you in a dark alley one night, and we'll see if we can read. You know, again, it isn't. It isn't a blindness issue. I did go to college, I graduated I had several jobs that eventually led me to be in the World Trade Center on September 11 2001. I was there as the Mid Atlantic region sales manager for quantum Corporation, which was a fortune 500 computer company. I had been hired two years before to open an office for quantum in New York City. I was living back there because I had been transferred by another company from California to sell in New York City because I had been doing it by phone. And I made the case for the fact that we needed to do it on site. So I was asked to open an office because I had been recruited by quantum to do that. We opened the office on the 78th floor of tower one of the World Trade Center. The 78th floor is what's called a skylounge a sky lobby. That meant that elevators would go straight from floor one to 78 without stopping the World Trade Center. The way it was structured was that you could take elevators to go from floor one up to some number of floors but there were also direct elevators to floor 44 and floor 78. The 44th floor was where the cafeteria was the Port Authority cafeteria that everyone use 78 was the next jumping off point. You would then go to other elevators to go to other floors are you take the stairs, or in our case we were fortunate to have our office right on the 78th floor and on September 11 we were going to be holding some sales seminars to teach some of our resellers how to teach how to sell our products. I Arctic con they are excuse me quantum the company that worked for then artic con move me to the east coast but quantum work through a two tier distribution and sales model. So typically most of our products were sold to a few very large distributors and they in turn sign the smaller resellers and the major distributor we worked with Ingram micro wanted to make sure that their resellers knew how to sell our products. So they asked if we do the seminar and we set it up for of course September 11. By that time, I Had my fifth guide dog Roselle was that was a yellow lab. Roselle was also a dog with a great sense of humor, she loved to steal socks. She wouldn't eat them, she hid them. And I was warned by her puppy raisers that she'd like to do that. And she did. She stole my wife slippers once and hid them. And we had to find them. So in any case, we we in, Roselle and I were matched in 1999. And in 2001, she was very used to working in the World Trade Center with me, I had spent a lot of time when we started the office and started preparing to open the office, I had spent a great deal of time learning where everything in the World Trade Center was that I could possibly want to know about, I knew what was on most every floor, especially that would be a place where we might want to reach out and, and try to sell. I knew how to get around. I spent a lot of time studying emergency evacuation procedures. And almost every day when I went into the office, I remember thinking, if there's an emergency today, how am I going to get out? What am I going to do? And I made sure I knew the answers to those things. Because many times I would be in the office alone, nobody else would be there. Because I had a staff working for me great sales guys. And their job was to go out and sell and support their manager, right. So that was me. And my job was to be inside supporting them going on sales calls with them from time to time. But a lot of times I would be in the office alone, fielding their questions, helping them in any way that I could, working to make sure that I knew everything that they might need to know so that I could enhance them out in the field. In fact, every salesperson I ever hired, I said, Look, I know you're working for me. But I want you to understand that I view myself as a second person on your sales team. And what you and I need to do is to learn how we work together so I can add value to you and enhance what you do. My favorite example of that was with a guy named Kevin, who I hired.
Michael Hingson 22:14
I really liked Kevin, because when we were doing the interview, I said to him like I did to everyone, tell me what you're going to be selling for us and how you're going to do it. Now the typical answer for most people was, well, you're selling tape drives, we're going to be selling the tape drives, I'm going to learn all about those. And I'm going to go off and tell people how to do it. And what what they need to know so that they can buy it. That's the typical answer. Kevin's answer was the only person who ever gave it and it was the answer I wanted to hear. The only thing I have to sell is me and my reputation. And I need your support. I won't do anything without telling you. But when we agree on something, I'm going to go sell me and through them will and through that we'll sell the products. But if they don't believe me, they're not going to be interested in our products. And I have to rely on you. What an answer. But it was the right answer truly. So one day Kevin comes into my office and he says, Hey, we have sales opportunity at Salomon Brothers. I said, Okay. He said, they want me to come out and talk about our products for a project they have, I'm not sure that our products will really be what they want. But they want us to come and talk about it. And they wanted me to bring my manager along a decision maker. I said, Okay, he said, so they don't know you. So I didn't tell him you're blind.
Michael Hingson 23:51
So we got to the meeting. We entered the building right at 10 o'clock. We I wanted to arrive a minute or so late. I knew what Kevin meant. When he said I didn't tell him you're blind. Because we were going to hit him right between the eyes with that. So about 1001 we're walking down the hallway here, a bunch of people talking a few and we're going where are these quantum people in all that we walk in the door and the room goes totally silent. We stand there for a moment. And I turned to Kevin, I said, So where are we going to do this? He says all right up here in the front. So we went up to the front I had a laptop projector in hand on my laptop also opened up the cases took things out and says where do we plug this stuff in? And he says I'll take it and he plugs it in. And meanwhile, I'm standing there facing this audience. And so I turn to my left. And I said to the person sitting right in the front row on the corner who I heard as we walked by, I said, Hi my name is Mike Kingston, who are you? Nothing. Really, who are you? Nothing. So I kind of walk over near him and I'm looking straight at him. And I said I heard you when I walked by, who are you? So finally he said, Oh, my name is Joe. I said, Good, glad to meet you. And when I shook his hand, I said, you know, doesn't matter whether I'm blind beside, I know you're there. I don't know a lot about you yet, but I'm gonna learn about you. So tell me, Joe, why are you interested in our tape drives? I didn't ask if he was interested. I asked him why? Because I knew from my Dale Carnegie sales course you don't answer ask yes or no questions unless you really know the answer. But you don't ask yes or no questions. That doesn't give you a lot of information. So Joe, kind of hemmed and hawed and finally gave me an answer to that. And then I said, So tell me a little bit more about the project, if you will. And he did. And then I went to the next person, and I went around the room. And I talked to those people, learning a lot, including our product wasn't gonna do anything to help these people. But we were there. So we did the presentation. I did the presentation, I had a script, I did the PowerPoint show. And on my script was in incredible detail. And it said, everything that I needed to know including even on the screen, what picture appeared where so I could point over my shoulder and say, on the left side of your screen, you'll see the A TLP 3000, which holds 16 tape drives and 326 tape cartridges, we use a special technology called prism technology, our system is very modular, we can actually connect five of those drives together five of those libraries together, so that you could have a total of 80, tape drives, and 16 120. Tape cartridges, all in one big library. And on the right side of your screen, you can see the ATL p 1000, which is a small single drive library with 30, tape drives, and some things like that, and talk on and on and on. And we went off and we talked and all that, and we did the whole show. And then I said at the end, and as you can see our product won't do what you want. But I wanted you to know about it, because I want you to understand what different systems can do. Now let me tell you a little bit about who has a product that will help you. My bosses would shoot me if they heard me say that. But it's the ethical thing to do. And so we talked about that a little bit. And then we ended the day and people will come up to me and we chatted some and a couple came up and they said we're really angry at you. And I said Why? He said Well, usually when people come in, they do these presentations, we just kind of fall asleep and vege out, you know, because they just keep talking and talking. But you never looked away and looked at the screen. You kept looking at us, we forgot you were blind. We didn't dare fall asleep. And I said, Well, you could have fallen asleep. The dog was down here. You may think he's asleep, but he's taken notes. Anyway, we ended and we went out and Kevin said, How can you know so much about our products? And and you knew some of these later things that I don't know. And I said, Well, did you read the product bulletin that came out last week? Well, no, I really didn't have time. I said, there you go. message received and understood. But about two weeks later, the Solomon people called back and they said, We really do appreciate all that you did and coming out and talking with us. And we have something to tell you. And that is that there's another project. Because of everything that you taught us, we know that your product is perfect for it, we're not even putting it out for bid, just give us a price. That's the ethics of it. That's the way to sell.
Michael Hingson 28:31
And that's what we did. So, in any case, I spent a lot of time learning what to do in the case of an emergency, so that I could get out when necessary, because I knew that people like Kevin and the rest of our sales and support staff would be out working a lot of times. And so I knew everything that I could possibly know about what to do in any kind of an unusual situation. On September 10, I went home as usual, I took my laptop, which is what I used in the office, I backed up my data at home. I'm a good Scout, I know how to be prepared, and sometimes I would work at home. So I always made sure I had my data backed up at home as well as on the job. By the way, speaking of scouts as long as I'm bragging, I happen to be an Eagle Scout with two palms and vigil in the order of the arrow. blindness isn't the issue.
Michael Hingson 29:33
A lot of fun. I had some great scout leaders who accepted me for who I was and that made all the difference. In any case. I backed up my data later that night we went to bed and about 1230 Roselle started nudging me. Now Roselle was afraid of thunder. And of course we had rain storms in New Jersey. We lived in Westfield, great town. Again there we build our house that was a two story house. We put an elevator in So we could go to the two stories and the basement. So we had this nice elevator and nice house. But Roselle now was bugging me at 1230. And I knew that there must be a storm coming. She usually gave us about a half hour warning because she could sense it, as we know because the static charge would build up on her for as well as the fact that she probably heard the thunder before we do and so Rosa was shaking and shivering and panting and so I took Roselle Karen, my wife was awake by that time and we both agree there must be a storm coming. So we went downstairs to my basement to our basement. I put Roselle under my desk and I sat down and decided to try to do a little bit of work that I was going to do the next day before our sales seminars began. I turned on the stereos and had a pretty loud hopefully masking some of the thunder sounds. But God has a sense of humor. I guess. The storm literally came right over our house. It sounds like bombs going off outside and pours it Roselle was just shaking. At least she didn't see the lightning because she was under the desk. We were there until about two o'clock. Then the storm left. And so I went back up and we got three more hours asleep and then got up to go into the office. I didn't think it was a bad sign of things to come. Some people have said well, didn't you get the warning? No. So we got to the office at 740. And there was a guy there he just pulled up with a cart. He was from the Port Authority cafeteria, he was bringing the breakfast that we ordered for the early arrivals. And for the first group of seminar people we had 50 people scheduled during the day to come to one of four seminars. by eight o'clock. Some of our distribution people from Ingram micro arrived along with David Frank from our corporate office, David was in charge of the distribution sales, then he was there to help the Ingram micro people talk about pricing. I was there because of course I'm the technical contact the guy who would be on site in New York all the time. David was from New York, but he transplanted to California. And so so he was there and I was there we were the two quantum people, the Ingram micro people were there for about five Ingram micro people, six, actually, I guess. And then one of them decided about quarter after eight or 830, to go downstairs and to wait in the lobby, and a score our distribution people to where they needed to go. The last thing we needed to do before the seminars or to start was to create a list of all the people who would be attending that day, if you wanted to go to the World Trade Center and go up and see anyone at that time, because of the bombing in 1993, you either had to have your name on a previously prepared list that was created on stationery from the company where you were going. So they could check your name off after looking at your ID, or they would have to call us and say is so and so allowed to come up. We didn't want to have 50 phone calls. So it was easier to create the list. David and I finished the list and at 845 in the morning I was reaching for stationery to create the list and print it out when suddenly we felt a muffled thump. And the building sort of shuttered a little a minor kind of explosion not overly loud. And then the building began to tip. As I'm tipping my hand and it just kept tipping and tipping and tipping. We actually moved about 20 feet.
Michael Hingson 33:37
The building kept tipping. David said What's going on? I said I don't know what do you think? I said do you think it was an explosion? You said it didn't sound like it? He said was it an earthquake? I said no. Because the building's not shaking from side to side or anything it's going in one direction. Now I knew that building the towers were made to buffet and winds although I wasn't really thinking about that at the time. But the building kept tipping and hey I grew up in Palmdale right building musco Santa doorway, so I went and stood in the doorway to my office. Yeah, a lot of good that's really going to do your 78 floors up but hey, there I was. David was just holding on to my desk. Roselle was asleep under my desk. And finally, David, I say goodbye to each other because we thought we were about to take a 78 floor punch to the street. Then the building slowed down and it stopped. And it came back the other way. And I remember as soon as the building started to move back, I let out my breath. I didn't even realize I was holding it. The building eventually got to be vertical again. As soon as it did, I went into my office and I met my guide dog Roselle coming out from under my desk. I took her leash and told her to heal, which meant to come around on my left side just like Alamo did good boy, he gets a reward for sitting and Roselle came and sat and was just wagging your tail And about that time, the building Straight down about six feet. Because as we know, the expansion joints went back to their normal configuration. We didn't really think about that at the time, but that's what they were doing. As soon as that occurred, David let go of the desk, turned around and looked around outside and said, Oh my god, Mike, there's fire and smoke above us. There are millions of pieces of burning paper falling outside the window. We got to get out of here right now. We can't stay here. I said. Are you sure? Yeah, I can see the fire above us. And there millions of pieces of burning paper falling outside our windows. I heard stuff, brushing the windows, but I didn't know what it was. Now I did. And our guests began to scream the ones that were in eating breakfast, waiting for the seminar to start, they started moving toward our exit and I kept saying slow down, David. No, we got to get out of here right now. The buildings on fire. Slow down. David will get out. Just be patient. No, we got to get out of here right now. We can't stay here. For me, emergency preparedness training kicked in. Because I, as you know, kept thinking What do I do? Emergency Well, here it was. Then David said the big line Mike, we got to get out of here. And I said slow down. He says no, you don't understand you can't see it. The problem wasn't what I wasn't seeing. The problem was what David wasn't seeing when I tell you about Rozelle with thunderstorms. She wasn't doing any of that she was wagging her tail and Jani and going, who woke me up. She wasn't giving any fear indication at all. And so I knew that whatever was occurring, we weren't imminently immediately threatened. So I finally got David to focus and say, get our guests to the stairs and start them down. And he did. While he was doing that, I called Karen, my wife and said, there's been an emergency and something happened. We're going to be evacuating, I'll let you know later What's going on? And she said, what's, what is what is going on? I said, Oh, no. The airplane hit 18 floors above us on the other side of the building. Afterward, when reporters started interviewing me. They said, Well, of course you didn't know what happened because you couldn't see it. I said, Wait a minute, helped me understand. The plane hit on the 96th floor roughly. On the other side of the building from us the last time I heard there really wasn't such a thing as x ray vision. None of us knew blindness had nothing to do with you can't justify that. None of us knew. And on the stairs, none of us knew. And we were with a whole bunch of people on the stairs. Anyway, David came back. I just disconnected with Karen. We swept the offices to make sure we didn't miss anyone. We tried to power down some equipment, didn't really have time to do a lot of that and we just left a went to the stairs and started down. Almost immediately I began smelling an odor and it took me a little while to recognize that what I was smelling was burning jet fuel. I traveled a lot through airports about 100,000 miles a year. So I knew that smell but I didn't associate it with the World Trade Center. Now suddenly, I smelled it and I recognize it finally after about four floors, and I observed it to others who said yeah, that's what it is. You're right.
Michael Hingson 38:12
So we kept walking down the stairs. Got down about 10 floors and then from above us we heard Brian victim coming through move to the side let us by the stairs were wide enough that you could walk like two or three abreast but we moved to the outer wall stood facing in and a group of people passed us and David described how they were surrounding a woman who is very badly burned over the upper part of her body, probably from the little vapor droplets that can busted as she was standing in front of an elevator. We then started walking again and then we heard it again burned record coming through moving to the side, let us buy and another group pass us with someone who is burn. As David said even worse, we knew it had to be pretty bad above us. We kept walking down some conversation. We got to about the 50th floor David wasn't talking very much. And suddenly he said Mike we're gonna die. We're not going to make it out of here. And I just said stop it David if Roselle and I can go down the stairs. So can you see I took that secret teacher course that that all of you as teachers have never told anybody about because you're sworn to secrecy, right? voice 101 where you learn to yell at students, right? And so I literally very deliberately spoke very harshly to David. And he told me that that brought him out of his funk. But then David made a decision, which I think is still one of the most profound and incredible decisions and follow throughs that I experienced that day. David said, You know, I got to keep my mind on it on what's going on. But I don't I don't want to think about this. I want to think about something else. So I'm going to walk the floor below you and shout up to you everything that I see on the stairs, okay. And I said Sure, go ahead. Did I need David to do that? No. Right, you're going down the stairs, what can you do, but it was okay. And I'm glad to have more information. I love information. And so I thought it was fine. But the reason that I thought that what David did was so incredible will come up in a moment. So suddenly I'm on the 49th floor when I walked down the floor and David walked ahead of us and suddenly, Hey, Mike, I'm on the 48th floor, everything is good here going on down. I'm on 49 go into 48 get to 48 David 47th floor all clear. What David was doing, although he was shouting up to me, he was providing information that hundreds or 1000s of people on the stairwell could hear. He gave everyone a focus point. Anyone who could hear him knew that somewhere above them or below them on the stairs, someone was okay. And that it was clear and they could keep going. He gave everyone something to focus on. And I think that that was the one thing more than anything else. That had to keep more people from possibly panicking like he started to do on the stairs. We didn't have any other incidents that that after David started shouting 46 floor all clear. Hey, I'm on 45 everything is good here. 44th floor This is where the Port Authority cafeteria is not stopping going on down.
Michael Hingson 41:31
And we continue down the stairs. We eventually got to the 30th floor. And when we did actually David did and I was at 31 he said I see I see firefighters coming up the stairs. We're going to have to let them by everybody moved to the side while I went down to where he was and they hadn't got there yet. I said what do you see? And he said, Well I just see him coming up the stairs they got heavy backpacks on and they're carrying shovels oxygen cylinders by our axes the first guy gets to us and he stops right in front of me and when let me bike goes hey buddy you okay? You know that's how you sound in New York right? Hey buddy. Yo, in New Jersey, it's yo and I said yeah I'm fine well that's really nice we're gonna send somebody down the stairs which should make sure you get out and I said you don't need to do that I'm good. What's really nice we're gonna send somebody which anyway I said Look, I just came down from the 78th floor here we are at 30 I came down 48 floors I'm really good. Wow, it's really nice. We're gonna send somebody down the stairs which I said Look, I got my guide dog Roselle here and and everything is good. We're doing fine. Now what a nice dog and he reaches out and he starts petting Roselle. It wasn't the time to give him a lecture don't pet a guide dog and harness. But I'll give you the lecture dump had a guide dog and harness, dog and harness do not come up Don't say name don't interact with even don't make eye contact dog in harness is working harness is symbol of work. Don't distract dog. If you do, I will first correct the dog before I deal with you. Because rose Alamo should know better. He is still a puppy though. And dogs love to interact. And so when you start trying to talk with them, they're going to talk to you, they're going to try and then I have to bring him back and focus him. I don't want to do that. So don't deal with a guide dog and harness. Now as I said before, when we're out selling books later harness will come off, and you're welcome to visit with him all you want. Of course, I'd love you to buy books too. And take business cards because if any of you know anyone who needs a public speaker, whether it's in your district or or their organizations, I would love you to to let me know or let them know, because this is what I do. And I really would love your help to do more of this to educate people. We can talk more about that later. Any case wasn't the time to give them that lecture and it wasn't the time to say to the fire person. blindness isn't the problem. It's your attitude, you know, so I finally just played the card. Look, I got my friend David over here David can see we're working together okay. And he turns to David here with him. David goes yeah, leave him alone. He's good. He says okay, and he goes, then he pets Roselle a few more times. She gives him a few more kisses. And he goes on up the stairs. Probably just having received the last unconditional love he ever gotten his life.
Michael Hingson 44:21
And I remember that. Every time I say it. I don't know I never heard whether they survived or not. But don't know that he did. But he was gone. Other firefighters were coming up 50 men and women pastors going up the stairs to fight that fire. Several of us on one or more occasions said can we help you guys and they just said no Your job is to go down and get out ours is to go deal with this. We got it. David we assumed a scouting position and we kept going down the stairs. Finally David said well at about the 26th floor by the way Somebody started passing up water bottles. Roselle was panting I was getting pretty warm with all the the massive human bodies. So we we gave Roselle some water somebody passed up bottles and David brought one up and he took some drinks I took some drinks we gave Roselle some we made our hands into kind of cups and so everybody got some water and then we continued and finally he got to the first floor. I was on four second floor two and he said hey Mike, the water sprinklers are on here you're going to have to run through a curtain and water to get out of the stairwell. And the water was running to create a barrier so fire wouldn't get in or out depending on if it ever broke out. He was gone. I got to the first floor picked up the harness results forward hopper speed up, which is the command to give. we raced through this torrential downpour of water and came out the other end soaking. But we were in the lobby of tower one. Normally a very quiet building and quiet lobby office type environment. But now people were shouting dunk on that way. Don't go outside go this way. megaphones don't go over their gun this way. Go to the doors into the rain, main part of the complex don't go outside. They didn't want anyone going out because that would have put them right below where people were jumping. We didn't know that at the time. So this guy comes up to David and me. And he says, Hey, I'm with the FBI. I'll get you where you need to go. And I'm sitting there going the FBI. What did I do? I didn't do it. sighs I'm not talking to anybody about McGarrett from five Oh, I didn't think that. Anyway, I said What's going on? He said no time to tell you just come with us. So he ran us through the whole complex and out a door after going up an escalator by borders, books as far away from the towers as we could be. And we made it outside. And we were told to leave the area. But David looked around and said, Mike, I see fire in tower two. I said what? Yeah, there's fire in the second tower. Sure. Yeah. And I went, what's going on? We had no idea where that came from. We didn't feel thing in our building when we were going down the stairs. So we thought perhaps it was just fire that jumped across from our building when the building tipped it was mashing pointed toward tower to we didn't know. So we left the area we walked over to Broadway, we walk north on Broadway and eventually we got to Vesey street where we stopped because David says see the fire and tower to really well. We're only 100 yards away. I want to take pictures. So we stopped. He got out his camera. I got out my phone. I tried to call Karen. I couldn't get through the circuits were busy because as we now know everyone was everyone was saying goodbye to loved ones. But I couldn't get through to Karen. I had just put my phone away and David was putting his camera away when a police officer to get out of here it's coming down and we heard this rumble that quickly became this deafening roar I described the sound is kind of a combination of a freight train and a waterfall. You could hear glass tinkling and breaking metal clattering in is white noise sound as tower to collapse it pancake straight down. David turned and ran. He was gone. Everyone was running different directions. I bodily lifted, Roselle turned 180 degrees and started running back the way we came. Come on was I'll keep going good girl keep going. We ran got to Fulton Street, turned right onto Fulton Street. And now we're going west. At least we had a building between us and the towers. I ran about maybe 100 feet or so. And suddenly there was David. It turns out we had both run in the same direction. And then he realized that he had just left me he was going to come back and try to find me. But I found him first and he started apologizing. I said David, don't worry about the buildings coming down. Let's keep going and we started to run. And then we were engulfed in the dust cloud all the dirt and debris in the fine particles of tower two that were collapsing that we're that we're coming down. And so David and I were now engulfed in this cloud. He said he couldn't see his hand six inches in front of his face. I could feel with every breath I took stuff going through my mouth and through my nose into my throat and settling in my lungs. That's how thick it was. I could feel it settling in my lungs.
Michael Hingson 49:19
So we kept running and we knew we had to get out of that. So I started telling Roselle right? Right with hand signals and voice I don't know whether she could hear me and because of the dust. I don't even know if she could see me. Right? Roselle right? But I was listening for an opening on my right and the first opening I heard I was gonna go into it. And obviously Roselle didn't know what I want because when that first opening appeared, I heard it but she immediately turned right she took one step and she stopped and she wouldn't move. Connor was I'll keep going, she wouldn't move. And I realized there must be a reason. So I stuck a handle on a wall and stuck out a foot and realized and discovered that we were at the top of a flight of stairs. She had done her job perfectly. We walked down two flights of stairs and found ourselves in little arcade, a lobby of a subway station. We continued to well, we just stayed there for a while. And then this guy comes up. He introduced himself as Lou, an employee of the subway system. And he took us down to the lower levels of the subway station to an employee locker room. And when we got to the locker room, there were benches there were about eight or nine of us who were in the lobby at that point, that little arcade, there were other people that he had already escorted down. So we were all in this employee locker room, there was a water fountain, there were benches, there was a fan. We were all hacking and trying to get rid of stuff from our lungs, and not saying much what the heck was going on. None of us knew. We were there for a few minutes. And then a police officer came and he said, the air is clear up above you're gonna have to, to leave and and go out of here right now. So we followed him up the stairs, he went to that little arcade lobby where we had been, and then he went on up the stairs. He said the air is a little bit better up there. And we just followed him. And finally we went outside after getting to the top. David looked around, and he said, Oh my god, Mike. There's no tower to anymore. And I said, What do you see? And he said, All I see are pillars of smoke where the tower was it's gone. Pretty sure. Yeah, it's gone. We stood there for a moment. And then we just turn and continue to walk west on Fulton Street. We walked for about maybe a quarter of a mile. And we were in this little Plaza area. Just still trying to figure out what was happening when suddenly we heard that freight train waterfall sound again, and we knew it was tower one collapsing, David looked back and saw it. And he saw a dust cloud coming toward us again, it was still pretty concentrated. So we kind of ran to the side to get out of most of it hunkered down behind a wall and just waited until everything passes by and the wind subsided, the noise stop. And then we stood up. Turn, David looked around and said, Oh my god, Mike. There's no World Trade Center anymore. I said what do you see? And he said, fingers of fire and flame hundreds of feet tall and pillars of smoke, the towers are gone. We're gone in three hours before less than three hours before just to do our job. But now in the blink of an eye, it was gone. No clue why we stood there for a moment. And then I decided I better try to call Karen and this time I got through. And after some tears on both sides of the phone, she told us how to aircraft had been crashed into the towers went into the Pentagon and a fourth was still missing over Pennsylvania. We walked up toward Midtown and eventually got near Midtown Manhattan to the subway station and the train station at 33rd and sixth and seventh Avenue. And David and I set parted and went different ways. I wanted to get back home to Westfield he wanted to get up to the Upper East Side to his sister's house, which is where he was staying when I was back in New York. And so we went our separate ways.
Michael Hingson 53:42
And never, never thinking that that was the end. And a lot of ways. We did try to reopen the office elsewhere, but didn't get a lot of support from the company and decided that, for me, it was time to do something different. The reason I decided that was that the day after September 11, the 12th. Karen said you want to call the folks from Guide Dogs for the Blind. That's where you've gotten all your guide dogs got to let them know that you were in the trade center and got out because eventually they would remember it a number of them had visited us in our office, because it's such a cool view. I don't know how to tell you about the view so much other than to say we were so high up that on the Fourth of July, people would go to our office to look down on the fireworks displays. So I called them and talked to a number of people including their public information officer, Joanne Ritter, who wanted to do a story and I said sure, and she said, You know, you're probably going to get request to be on TV. What TV show Do you want to start with? So yeah, I'm not really thinking about that sort of stuff, right? kind of still in shock. So I just said Larry King Live. Two days later on the 14th. We had the first of five interviews with Larry King. And so we started doing that and eventually Guide Dogs asked me to come and be a public spoke serve their public spokesperson. And I was being asked by that time to travel and speak and tell my story. And people said, we want to hire you. Being a sales guy, I'm sitting there going, you want to hire me just to come and talk. That sounds a whole lot more fun than working for quantum. And we wanted to move back to California anyway. So I accepted Guide Dogs position, and I've been speaking ever since. Other things have happened along the way very quickly, including I was asked in 2015, by a startup company, AIRA, a IRA to join their advisory board and AIRA makes a product called a visual interpreter. It consists of an app on a smartphone. And it may also include smart glasses with a high resolution video camera. And what I wrote allows me to do is to contact an agent who has been hired and vetted and trained to describe whatever the camera sees, and whatever information I need so they can help with an accessible websites. They helped me put together products when the instructions were all visual pictures, the Chinese have learned from IKEA, and in so many other ways that literally now, any visual information becomes available with AIRA. I just really want to quickly show you like hierro and we can we can talk more about AIRA this afternoon in the the session at 345. I want you to see what AIRA does. So hopefully
AIRA 56:37
connecting to agent Kenyon starting video we're gonna wait. Oh, Michael, thanks for calling. I read this is Kenyon. What would you like to do today?
Michael Hingson 56:48
I'd like you to tell me what you see.
AIRA 56:50
I see a very large crowd, right?
Michael Hingson 56:54
Yeah, what else?
AIRA 56:56
podium to mic. And it looks like a very large auditorium, see some doors toward the back exit signs, and very captive crowds.
Michael Hingson 57:09
Here's the real question. Do they look like they're awake?
AIRA 57:16
They are now. So we're good.
Michael Hingson 57:21
So tell them what you do.
AIRA 57:26
I assist those who are sight challenged with independence on a daily basis. We allow them to be more independent in their daily lives to get around with minimal help. And we basically help them to see
Michael Hingson 57:41
how do you do that? What do you do?
57:44
We use descriptives we use, we call in as we did now. And we ask them, What would you like to do and we assist them with whatever their task may be for that day, whether it be for reading, navigation, calling an Ubers, travel, descriptives, you name it, we can do it. We do that through either, believe you're using the glasses right now. We have horizon glasses we use and then or through technology in the phones, we use remote cameras, to help them to see the world around them and describe it to them. And to help them navigate through
Michael Hingson 58:17
it to real quick stories. One, one IRA agent helped someone once while they were on an African safari to describe what was going on. But my favorite IRA story is that a father once wanted to find out if his daughter was really doing her homework. So he activated IRA. And he went in with the agent and said, How are things going? And she said, Oh great. I'm almost done with my homework. And the Irish said Irish and said, No, she's playing a game on her iPhone.
AIRA 58:48
Yes, we also bust children whenever we need to.
Michael Hingson 58:54
Kenny, I appreciate your time. I'm going to go ahead and finish chatting with these folks. But appreciate you taking the time to chat today.
AIRA 59:02
You bet. Thanks for calling AIRA. Michael, we'll talk to you again soon.
Michael Hingson 59:04
Thank you, sir. Bye. And that's what and that's what I read is all about. The whole the whole point is that I get access to all the information I otherwise don't have access to. Because ironically, in our modern technological world, sometimes it's actually becoming harder for me to get access to information. Too many websites are inaccessible and shouldn't be too many books may be scanned, but they're not put in a textual form that I have access to. There have been lawsuits over that. But the bottom line is that IRA creates access, or I should say it creates inclusion it gives me access to the information that I otherwise wouldn't have access to. So be glad to show that to any of you What I'd like to do is to end this now, with some words from Dr. Tim Brooke, that the person I mentioned earlier, this is part of a speech that he gave at the 1956 convention of the National Federation of the Blind in San Francisco. So it is a convention of blind people. But what I'm reading to you now could just as easily apply to any group. And I'm sure that Dr. Tim Burke intended it that way. And this is what he wrote. In the 16th century, john Bradford made a famous remark, which has ever since been held up to us as a model of Christian humility, and correct charity, and which you saw reflected in the agency quotations I presented earlier, seeing a beggar in his rags creeping along a wall through a flash of lightning in a stormy night, Bradford said, but for the grace of God, there go I compassion was shown. Pity was shown, charity was shown. Humility was shown. There was even an acknowledgment that the relative positions of the two could and might have been switched. Yet, despite the compassion, despite the pity, despite the charity, despite the humility, how insufferably arrogant there was still an unbridgeable gulf between Bradford and the beggar. They were not one but two, whatever might have been, Bradford thought himself Bradford, and the beggar a beggar one high, the other low one Why's the other misguided, one strong, the other weak, one virtuous, the other depraved. We do not and cannot take the Bradford approach. It is not just that beggary is the badge of our past, and is still all too often the present symbol of social attitudes toward us, although that is at least a part of it. But in the broader sense, we are that bigger, and he is, each of us, we are made in the same image. And out of the same ingredients, we have the same weaknesses and strengths, the same feelings, emotions, and drives. And we are the product of the same social, economic and other environmental forces. How much more constant with the facts of individual and social life, how much more a part of a true humanity to say, instead, there within the grace of God, do go I. And I want to leave you with that, because I think that sums it up as well as I can possibly do. We're all on the same world together. And you have the awesome responsibility to help children. And perhaps their parents grow, and truly become more included in society. So this afternoon, I'll be talking about the concept of moving from diversity to inclusion, and I'll tell you why choose that title. And I'll tell you now, when you watch television, you hear all about diversity. How often do you ever hear disabilities mentioned? You don't? Hollywood doesn't mention us. The candidates aren't mentioning us in all the political debates.
Michael Hingson 1:03:46
Even though 20% of the population has some sort of a disability, not concluding politicians who have their own disabilities, but we want to go we need to demand and we ask your help to create a true inclusive society. I challenge you to do that. I hope we get to chat later. Come to the presentation this afternoon and come and see us. We'll be selling Thunder dog books, and you can visit with Alamo. And also again, if you know anyone else who needs a speaker, it's what I do, as you can tell, did you all feel you'll learn something today? vendors and everyone like Thanks very much, and I hope we get to chat some more. Thank you.
Michael Hingson 1:04:43
You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.
1 hr 7 min
October 08, 2021 Welcome to Unstoppable Mindset Podcast!!
Episode Notes
Join New York Times best-selling author and international lecturer, Michael Hingson as he shares about his new foray into the podcasting world and what he hopes to inspire and achieve. Start your Unstoppable Mindset journey today!!
Some directories do not show full show notes. For the complete transcription please visit: https://michaelhingson.com/podcast
Transcript Notes:
Michael Hingson 00:00
Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast we're inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.
Michael Hingson 01:21
Hi, I'm Michael Hanson, I'll be your host. I happen to be the chief vision officer for accessiBe. I am blind, a World Trade Center survivor and the author of the number one New York Times best selling book Thunder dog the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Do you happen to know anyone who has a disability? Do you have a website that you have never thought about making accessible so that the 20% of all people with disabilities in the United States can use them? What do you think about people who happen to have disabilities? Let's take it a little bit further. Have you ever had an unexpected life changing experience that caused you to be totally afraid? All of those are questions that we want to deal with an unstoppable mindset. You see, as a person who happens to be blind, I've encountered a lot of people in my life, who are just simply afraid of a blind person, they don't know how to treat me, or any other person with a disability. My wife happens to be in a wheelchair. It's a lot of fun going into a restaurant, and seeing how people react to a couple where both of us have different disabilities. They just don't know how to deal with us. Why is that? Why do we have so much fear in our lives and so much uncertainty that we can't just accept that people are people.
Michael Hingson 02:46
We're going to talk about those kinds of things in unstoppable mindset. unstoppable mindset is a title that I chose, because it really is all about a mindset. If we have a mindset that allows us to accept people as they are, if we have a mindset that allows us to control our own fears, when something happens to us that we don't expect, then we've come a long way toward being a lot more inclusive in our lives. On September 11 2001, I was confronted by one of the most life changing experiences one could ever imagine. That is I was on the 78th floor of tower, one of the World Trade Center when the terrorist attack. I didn't fear on that day. There were reasons for that. And we're going to explore some of those and help you understand how you can control your own blinding fears. But we're going to do it in the parlance of working with discussions about people who happen to have disabilities, because most discussions, most things that you see on the web, on television or anywhere else, don't deal with disabilities. Oh, we're not going to just be a disabilities podcast, we're going to discuss a variety of subjects, but it's all going to be about you and learning to control your own fears. And you learning how to accept people as they are not as you think they should be just because they're different than you. So I hope you'll join us each week for unstoppable mindset, and they will enjoy what we have to offer. You can visit us at www.michaelhingson.com/podcast to learn more to subscribe to our newsletter and to learn about upcoming episodes. Looking forward to having you with us.
Michael Hingson 04:26
You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.
7 min

About Unstoppable Mindset

From the publisher's feed

Inclusion, Diversity and encountering something different and unexpected. We all have reacted to different kinds of people and unexpected situations often with fear and unacceptance. Join blind World Trade Center survivor, No. 1 NY Times Bestseller and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe, Michael Hingson as he talks with thought leaders and others about our often blinding fear of inclusion and our resistance to change. Mike will explore the idea that no matter the situation or different kinds of people we encounter our own fears and prejudices often are the strongest barriers to moving forward.

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