Nonprofits, your “10 blue links” era is over. In this episode, Avinash Kaushik (Human-Made Machine; Occam’s Razor) breaks down Answer Engine Optimization—why LLMs now decide who gets seen, why third-party chatter outweighs your own site, and what to do about it. We get tactical: build AI-resistant content (genuine novelty + depth), go multimodal (text, video, audio), and stamp everything with real attribution so bots can’t regurgitate you into sludge. We also cover measurement that isn’t delusional—group your AEO referrals, expect fewer visits but higher intent, and stop worshiping last-click and vanity metrics. Avinash updates the 10/90 rule for the AI age (invest in people, plus “synthetic interns”), and torpedoes linear funnels in favor of See-Think-Do-Care anchored in intent. If you want a blunt, practical playbook for staying visible—and actually converting—when answers beat searches, this is it.
About Avinash
Avinash Kaushik is a leading voice in marketing analytics—the author of Web Analytics: An Hour a Day and Web Analytics 2.0, publisher of the Marketing <> Analytics Intersect newsletter, and longtime writer of the Occam’s Razor blog. He leads strategy at Human Made Machine, advises Tapestry on brand strategy/marketing transformation, and previously served as Google’s Digital Marketing Evangelist. Uniquely, he donates 100% of his book royalties and paid newsletter revenue to charity (civil rights, early childhood education, UN OCHA; previously Smile Train and Doctors Without Borders). He also co-founded Market Motive.
Avinash Kaushik — Occam’s Razor (site/home) Occam's Razor by Avinash Kaushik
Marketing <> Analytics Intersect (newsletter sign-up) Occam's Razor by Avinash Kaushik
AEO series starter: “AI Age Marketing: Bye SEO, Hello AEO!” Occam's Razor by Avinash Kaushik
See-Think-Do-Care (framework explainer) Occam's Razor by Avinash Kaushik
Books: Web Analytics: An Hour a Day | Web Analytics 2.0 (author pages) Occam's Razor by Avinash Kaushik+1
Human Made Machine (creative pre-testing) — Home | About | Products humanmademachine.com+2humanmademachine.com+2
Tapestry (Coach, Kate Spade) (company site) Tapestry
Tools mentioned (AEO measurement):
Trakkr (AI visibility / prompts / sentiment) Trakkr
Evertune (AI Brand Index & monitoring) evertune.ai
GA4 how-tos (for your AEO channel + attribution):
Custom Channel Groups (create an “AEO” channel) Google Help
Attribution Paths report (multi-touch view) Google Help
Nonprofit vetting (Avinash’s donation diligence):
Charity Navigator (ratings) Charity Navigator
Google for Nonprofits — Gemini & NotebookLM (AI access)
Announcement / overview | Workspace AI for nonprofits blog.googleGoogle Help
Example NGO Avinash supports: EMERGENCY (Italy) EMERGENCY
Transcript
Avinash Kaushik: [00:00:00] So traffic's gonna go down. So if you're a business, you're a nonprofit, how. Do you deal with the fact that you're gonna lose a lot of traffic that you get from a search engine? Today, when all of humanity moves to the answer Engine W world, only about two or 3% of the people are doing it.
It's growing very rapidly. Um, and so the art of answer engine optimization is making sure that we are building for these LMS and not getting stuck with only solving for Google with the old SEO techniques. Some of them still work, but you need to learn a lot of new stuff because on average, organic traffic will drop between 16 to 64% negative and paid search traffic will drop between five to 30% negative.
And that is a huge challenge. And the reason you should start with AEO now
George Weiner: [00:01:00] This week's guest, Avinash Kaushik is an absolute hero of mine because of his amazing, uh, work in the field of web analytics. And also, more importantly, I'd say education. Avinash Kaushik, , digital marketing evangelist at Google for Google Analytics. He spent 16 years there. He basically is.
In the room where it happened, when the underlying ability to understand what's going on on our websites was was created. More importantly, I think for me, you know, he joined us on episode 45 back in 2016, and he still is, I believe, on the cutting edge of what's about to happen with AEO and the death of SEO.
I wanna unpack that 'cause we kind of fly through terms [00:02:00] before we get into this podcast interview AEO. Answer engine optimization. It's this world of saying, alright, how do we create content that can't just be, , regurgitated by bots, , wholesale taken. And it's a big shift from SEO search engine optimization.
This classic work of creating content for Google to give us 10 blue links for people to click on that behavior is changing. And when. We go through a period of change. I always wanna look at primary sources. The people that, , are likely to know the most and do the most. And he operates in the for-profit world.
But make no mistake, he cares deeply about nonprofits. His expertise, , has frankly been tested, proven and reproven. So I pay attention when he says things like, SEO is going away, and AEO is here to stay. So I give you Avan Kashic. I'm beyond excited that he has come back. He was on our 45th episode and now we are well over our 450th episode.
So, , who knows what'll happen next time we talk to him. [00:03:00] This week on the podcast, we have Avinash Kaushik. He is currently the chief strategy officer at Human Made Machine, but actually returning guest after many, many years, and I know him because he basically introduced me to Google Analytics, wrote the literal book on it, and also helped, by the way.
No big deal. Literally birth Google Analytics for everyone. During his time at Google, I could spend the entire podcast talking about, uh, the amazing amounts that you have contributed to, uh, marketing and analytics. But I'd rather just real quick, uh, how are you doing and how would you describe your, uh, your role right now?
Avinash Kaushik: Oh, thank you. So it's very excited to be back. Um, look forward to the discussion today. I do, I do several things concurrently, of course. I, I, I am an author and I write this weekly newsletter on marketing and analytics. Um, I am the Chief Strategy Officer at Human Made Machine, a company [00:04:00] that obsesses about helping brands win before they spend by doing creative pretesting.
And then I also do, uh, uh, consulting at Tapestry, which owns Coach and Kate Spades. And my work focuses on brand strategy and marketing transformation globally.
George Weiner: , Amazing. And of course, Occam's Razor. The, the, yes, the blog, which is incredible. I happen to be a, uh, a subscriber. You know, I often think of you in the nonprofit landscape, even though you operate, um, across many different brands, because personally, you also actually donate all of your proceeds from your books, from your blog, from your subscription.
You are donating all of that, um, because that's just who you are and what you do. So I also look at you as like team nonprofit, though.
Avinash Kaushik: You're very kind. No, no, I, I, yeah. All the proceeds from both of my books and now my newsletter, premium newsletter. It's about $200,000 a year, uh, donated to nonprofits, and a hundred [00:05:00] percent of the revenue is donated nonprofit, uh, nonprofits.
And, and for me, it, it's been ai. Then I have to figure out. Which ones, and so I research nonprofits and I look up their cha charity navigators, and I follow up with the people and I check in on the works while, while don't work at a nonprofit, but as a customer of nonprofits, if you will. I, I keep sort of very close tabs on the amazing work that these charities do around the world.
So feel very close to the people that you work with very closely.
George Weiner: So recently I got an all caps subject line from you. Well, not from you talking about this new acronym that was coming to destroy the world, I think is what you, no, AEO. Can you help us understand what answer engine optimization is?
Avinash Kaushik: Yes, of course.
Of course. We all are very excited about ai. Obviously you, you, you would've to live in. Some backwaters not to be excited about it. And we know [00:06:00] that, um, at the very edge, lots of people are using large language models, chat, GPT, Claude, Gemini, et cetera, et cetera, in the world. And, and increasingly over the last year, what you have begun to notice is that instead of using a traditional search engine like Google or using the old Google interface with the 10 blue links, et cetera.
People are beginning to use these lms. They just go to chat, GPT to get the answer that they want. And the one big difference in this, this behavior is I actually have on September 8th, I have a keynote here in New York and I have to be in Shanghai the next day. That is physically impossible because it, it just, the time it takes to travel.
But that's my thing. So today, if I wanted to figure out what is the fastest way. On September 8th, I can leave New York and get to Shanghai. I would go to Google flights. I would put in the destinations. It will come back with a crap load of data. Then I poke and prod and sort and filter, and I have to figure out which flight is right for that.
For this need I have. [00:07:00] So that is the old search engine world. I'm doing all the work, hunting and pecking, drilling down, visiting websites, et cetera, et cetera. Instead, actually what I did is I went to charge GBT 'cause I, I have a plus I, I'm a paying member of charge GBT and I said to charge GBTI have to do a keynote between four and five o'clock on September 8th in New York and I have to be in Shanghai as fast as I possibly can be After my keynote, can you find me the best flight?
And I just typed in those two sentences. He came back and said, this Korean airline website flight is the best one for you. You will not get to your destination on time until, unless you take a private jet flight for $300,000. There is your best option. They're gonna get to Shanghai on, uh, September 10th at 10 o'clock in the morning if you follow these steps.
And so what happened there? I didn't have to hunt and pack and dig and go to 15 websites to find the answer I wanted. The engine found the [00:08:00] answer I wanted at the end and did all the work for me that you are seeing from searching, clicking, clicking, clicking, clicking, clicking to just having somebody get you.
The final answer is what I call the, the, the underlying change in consumer behavior that makes answer engine so exciting. Obviously, it creates a challenge for us because what happened between those two things, George is. I didn't have to visit many websites. So traffic is going down, obviously, and these interfaces at the moment don't have paid search links for now.
They will come, they will come, but they don't at the moment. So traffic's gonna go down. So if you're a business, you're a nonprofit, how. Do you deal with the fact that you're gonna lose a lot of traffic that you get from a search engine? Today, when all of humanity moves to the answer Engine W world, only about two or 3% of the people are doing it.
It's growing very rapidly. Um, and so the art of answer engine optimization [00:09:00] is making sure that we are building for these LMS and not getting stuck with only solving for Google with the old SEO techniques. Some of them still work, but you need to learn a lot of new stuff because on average, organic traffic will drop between 16 to 64% negative and paid search traffic will drop between five to 30% negative.
And that is a huge challenge. And the reason you should start with AEO now
George Weiner: that you know. Is a window large enough to drive a metaphorical data bus through? And I think talk to your data doctor results may vary. You are absolutely right. We have been seeing this with our nonprofit clients, with our own traffic that yes, basically staying even is the new growth.
Yeah. But I want to sort of talk about the secondary implications of an AI that has ripped and gripped [00:10:00] my website's content. Then added whatever, whatever other flavors of my brand and information out there, and is then advising somebody or talking about my brand. Can you maybe unwrap that a little bit more?
What are the secondary impacts of frankly, uh, an AI answering what is the best international aid organization I should donate to? Yes. As you just said, you do
Avinash Kaushik: exactly. No, no, no. This such a, such a wonderful question. It gets to the crux. What used to influence Google, by the way, Google also has an answer engine called Gemini.
So I just, when I say Google, I'm referring to the current Google that most people use with four paid links and 10 SEO links. So when I say Google, I'm referring to that one. But Google also has an answer engine. I, I don't want anybody saying Google does is not getting into the answer engine business. It is.
So Google is very much influenced by content George that you create. I call it one P content, [00:11:00] first party content. Your website, your mobile app, your YouTube channel, your Facebook page, your, your, your, your, and it sprinkles on some amount of third party content. Some websites might have reviews about you like Yelp, some websites might have PR releases about you light some third party content.
Between search engine and engines.
Answer Engines seem to overvalue third party content. My for one p content, my website, my mobile app, my YouTube channel. My, my, my, everything actually is going down in influence while on Google it's pretty high. So as here you do SEO, you're, you're good, good ranking traffic. But these LLMs are using many, many, many, literally tens of thousands more sources.
To understand who you are, who you are as a nonprofit, and it's [00:12:00] using everybody's videos, everybody's Reddit posts, everybody's Facebook things, and tens of thousands of more people who write blogs and all kinds of stuff in order to understand who you are as a nonprofit, what services you offer, how good you are, where you're falling short, all those negative reviews or positive reviews, it's all creepy influence.
Has gone through the roof, P has come down, which is why it has become very, very important for us to build a new content strategy to figure out how we can influence these LMS about who we are. Because the scary thing is at this early stage in answer engines, someone else is telling the LLMs who you are instead of you.
A more, and that's, it feels a little scary. It feels as scary as a as as a brand. It feels very scary as I'm a chief strategy officer, human made machine. It feels scary for HMM. It feels scary for coach. [00:13:00] It's scary for everybody, uh, which is why you really urgently need to get a handle on your content strategy.
George Weiner: Yeah, I mean, what you just described, if it doesn't give you like anxiety, just stop right now. Just replay what we just did. And that is the second order effects. And you know, one of my concerns, you mentioned it early on, is that sort of traditional SEO, we've been playing the 10 Blue Link game for so long, and I'm worried that.
Because of the changes right now, roughly what 20% of a, uh, search is AI overview, that number's not gonna go down. You're mentioning third party stuff. All of Instagram back to 2020, just quietly got tossed into the soup of your AI brand footprint, as we call it. Talk to me about. There's a nonprofit listening to this right now, and then probably if they're smart, other organizations, what is coming in the next year?
They're sitting down to write the same style of, you know, [00:14:00] ai, SEO, optimized content, right? They have their content calendar. If you could have like that, I'm sitting, you're sitting in the room with them. What are you telling that classic content strategy team right now that's about to embark on 2026?
So actually I, I published this newsletter just last night, and this is like the, the fourth in my AEO series, uh, newsletter, talks about how to create your content portfolio strategy. Because in the past we were like, we've got a product pages, you know, the equivalent of our, our product pages. We've got some, some, uh, charitable stories on our website and uh, so on and so forth.
And that's good. That's basic. You need to do the basics. The interesting thing is you need to do so much more both on first party. So for example, one of the first things to appreciate is LMS or answer engines are far more influenced by multimodal content. So what does that mean? Text plus [00:15:00] video plus audio.
Video and audio were also helpful in Google. And remember when I say Google, I'm referring to the old linky linking Google, not Gemini. But now video has ton more influence. So if you're creating a content strategy for next year, you should say many. Actually, lemme do one at a time. Text. You have to figure out more types of things.
Authoritative Q and as. Very educational deep content around your charity's efforts. Lots of text. Third. Any seasonality, trends and patterns that happen in your charity that make a difference? I support a school in, in Nepal and, and during the winter they have very different kind of needs than they do during the summer.
And so I bumped into this because I was searching about something seasonality related. This particular school for Tibetan children popped up in Nepal, and it's that content they wrote around winter and winter struggles and coats and all this stuff. I'm like. [00:16:00] It popped up in the answer engine and I'm like, okay.
I research a bit more. They have good stories about it, and I'm supporting them q and a. Very, very important. Testimonials. Very, very important interviews. Very, very important. Super, super duper important with both the givers and the recipients, supporters of your nonprofit, but also the recipient recipients of very few nonprofits actually interview the people who support them.
George Weiner: Like, why not like donors or be like, Hey, why did you support us? What was the, were the two things that moved you from Aware to care?
Avinash Kaushik: Like for, for the i I Support Emergency, which is a Italian nonprofit like Ms. Frontiers and I would go on their website and speak a fiercely about why I absolutely love the work they do.
Content, yeah. So first is text, then video. You gotta figure out how to use video a lot more. And most nonprofits are not agile in being able to use video. And the third [00:17:00] thing that I think will be a little bit of a struggle is to figure out how to use audio. 'cause audio also plays a very influential role.
So for as you are planning your uh, uh, content calendar for the next year. Have the word multimodal. I'm sorry, it's profoundly unsexy, but put multimodal at the top, underneath it, say text, then say video, then audio, and start to fill those holes in. And if those people need ideas and example of how to use audio, they should just call you George.
You are the king of podcasting and you can absolutely give them better advice than I could around how nonprofits could use audio. But the one big thing you have to think about is multimodality for next year
George Weiner: that you know, is incredibly powerful. Underlying that, there's this nuance that I really want to make sure that we understand, which is the fact that the type of content is uniquely different.
It's not like there's a hunger organization listening right now. It's not 10 facts about hunger during the winter. [00:18:00] Uh, days of being able to be an information resource that would then bring people in and then bring them down your, you know, your path. It's game over. If not now, soon. Absolutely. So how you are creating things that AI can't create and that's why you, according to whom, is what I like to think about.
Like, you're gonna say something, you're gonna write something according to whom? Is it the CEO? Is it the stakeholder? Is it the donor? And if you can put a attribution there, suddenly the AI can't just lift and shift it. It has to take that as a block and be like, no, it was attributed here. This is the organization.
Is that about right? Or like first, first party data, right?
Avinash Kaushik: I'll, I'll add one more, one more. Uh, I'll give a proper definition. So, the fir i I made 11 recommendations last night in the newsletter. The very first one is focus on creating AI resistant content. So what, what does that mean? AI resistant means, uh, any one of us from nonprofits could [00:19:00] open chat, GPT type in a few queries and chat.
GD PT can write our next nonprofit newsletter. It could write the next page for our donation. It could create the damn page for our donation, right? Remember, AI can create way more content than you can, but if you can use AI to create content, 67 million other nonprofits are doing the same thing. So what you have to do is figure out how to build AI resistant content, and my definition is very simple.
George, what is AI resistance? It's content of genuine novelty. So to tie back to your recommendation, your CEO of a nonprofit that you just recommended, the attribution to George. Your CEO has a unique voice, a unique experience. The AI hasn't learned what makes your CEO your frontline staff solving problems.
You are a person who went and gave a speech at the United Nations on behalf of your nonprofit. Whatever you are [00:20:00] doing is very special, and what you have to figure out is how to get out of the AI slop. You have to get out of all the things that AI can automatically type. Figure out if your content meets this very simple, standard, genuine novelty and depth 'cause it's the one thing AI isn't good at.
That's how you rank higher. And not only will will it, will it rank you, but to make another point you made, George, it's gonna just lift, blanc it out there and attribute credit to you. Boom. But if you're not genuine, novelty and depth. Thousand other nonprofits are using AI to generate text and video.
George Weiner: you just, could you just quit whatever you're doing and start a school instead? I seriously can't say it enough that your point about AI slop is terrifying me because I see it. We've built an AI tool and the subtle lesson here is that think about how quickly this AI was able to output that newsletter.
Generic old school blog post and if this tool can do it, which [00:21:00] by the way is built on your local data set, we have the rag, which doesn't pause for a second and realize if this AI can make it, some other AI is going to be able to reproduce it. So how are you bringing the human back into this? And it's a style of writing and a style of strategic thinking that please just start a school and like help every single college kid leaving that just GPT their way through a degree.
Avinash Kaushik: so it's very, very important to make sure. Content is of genuine novelty and depth because it cannot be replicated by the ai. And by the way, this, by the way, George, it sounds really high, but honestly to, to use your point, if you're a CEO of a nonprofit, you are in it for something that speaks to you.
You're in it. Because ai, I mean nonprofit is not your path to becoming the next Bill Gates, you're doing it because you just have this hair. Whoa, spoiler alert. No, I'm sorry. [00:22:00] Maybe, maybe that is. I, I didn't, I didn't mean any negative emotion there, but No, I love it. It's all, it's like a, it's like a sense of passion you are bringing.
There's something that speaks to you. Just put that on paper, put that on video, put that on audio, because that is what makes you unique. And the collection of those stories of genuine depth and novelty will make your nonprofit unique and stand out when people are looking for answers.
George Weiner: So I have to point to the next elephant in the room here, which is measurement.
Yes. Yes. Right now, somebody is talking about human made machine. Someone's talking about whole whale. Someone's talking about your nonprofit having a discussion in an answer engine somewhere. Yes. And I have no idea. How do I go about understanding measurement in this new game?
Avinash Kaushik: I have. I have two recommendations.
For nonprofits, I would recommend a tool called Tracker ai, TRA, KKR [00:23:00] ai, and it has a free version, that's why I'm recommending it. Some of the many of these tools are paid tools, but with Tracker, do ai. It allows you to identify your website, URL, et cetera, et cetera, and it'll give you some really wonderful and fantastic, helpful report It.
Tracker helps you understand prompt tracking, which is what are other people writing about you when they're seeking? You? Think of this, George, as your old webmaster tools. What keywords are people using to search? Except you can get the prompts that people are using to get a more robust understanding. It also monitors your brand's visibility.
How often are you showing up and how often is your competitor showing up, et cetera, et cetera. And then he does that across multiple search engines. So you can say, oh, I'm actually pretty strong in OpenAI for some reason, and I'm not that strong in Gemini. Or, you know what, I have like the highest rating in cloud, but I don't have it in OpenAI.
And this begins to help you understand where your current content strategy is working and where it is not [00:24:00] working. So that's your brand visibility. And the third thing that you get from Tracker is active sentiment tracking. This is the scary part because remember, you and I were both worried about what other people saying about us.
So this, this are very helpful that we can go out and see what it is. What is the sentiment around our nonprofit that is coming across in, um, in these lms? So Tracker ai, it have a free and a paid version. So I would, I would recommend using it for these three purposes. If, if you have funding to invest in a tool.
Then there's a tool called Ever Tool, E-V-E-R-T-U-N-E Ever. Tune is a paid tool. It's extremely sophisticated and robust, and they do brand monitoring, site audit, content strategy, consumer preference report, ai, brand index, just the. Step and breadth of metrics that they provide is quite extensive, but, but it is a paid tool.
It does cost money. It's not actually crazy expensive, but uh, I know I have worked with them before, so full disclosure [00:25:00] and having evaluated lots of different tools, I have sort of settled on those two. If it's a enterprise type client I'm working with, then I'll use Evert Tune if I am working with a nonprofit or some of my personal stuff.
I'll use Tracker AI because it's good enough for a person that is, uh, smaller in size and revenue, et cetera. So those two tools, so we have new metrics coming, uh, from these tools. They help us understand the kind of things we use webmaster tools for in the past. Then your other thing you will want to track very, very closely is using Google Analytics or some other tool on your website.
You are able to currently track your, uh, organic traffic and if you're taking advantage of paid ads, uh, through a grant program on Google, which, uh, provides free paid search credits to nonprofits. Then you're tracking your page search traffic to continue to track that track trends, patterns over time.
But now you will begin to see in your referrals report, in your referrals report, you're gonna begin to seeing open [00:26:00] ai. You're gonna begin to see these new answer engines. And while you don't know the keywords that are sending this traffic and so on and so forth, it is important to keep track of the traffic because of two important reasons.
One, one, you want to know how to highly prioritize. AEO. That's one reason. But the other reason I found George is syn is so freaking hard to rank in an answer engine. When people do come to my websites from Answer engine, the businesses I work with that is very high intent person, they tend to be very, very valuable because they gave the answer engine a very complex question to answer the answers.
Engine said you. The right answer for it. So when I show up, I'm ready to buy, I'm ready to donate. I'm ready to do the action that I was looking for. So the percent of people who are coming from answer engines to your nonprofit carry significantly higher intention, and coming from Google, who also carry [00:27:00] intent.
But this man, you stood out in an answer engine, you're a gift from God. Person coming thinks you're very important and is likely to engage in some sort of business with you. So I, even if it's like a hundred people, I care a lot about those a hundred people, even if it's not 10,000 at the moment. Does that make sense George?
George Weiner: It does, and I think, I'm glad you pointed to, you know, the, the good old Google Analytics. I'm like, it has to be a way, and I, I think. I gave maximum effort to this problem inside of Google Analytics, and I'm still frustrated that search console is not showing me, and it's just blending it all together into one big soup.
But. I want you to poke a hole in this thinking or say yes or no. You can create an AI channel, an AEO channel cluster together, and we have a guide on that cluster together. All of those types of referral traffic, as you mentioned, right from there. I actually know thanks to CloudFlare, the ratios of the amount of scrapes versus the actual clicks sent [00:28:00] for roughly 20, 30% of.
Traffic globally. So is it fair to say I could assume like a 2% clickthrough or a 1% clickthrough, or even worse in some cases based on that referral and then reverse engineer, basically divide those clicks by the clickthrough rate and essentially get a rough share of voice metric on that platform? Yeah.
Avinash Kaushik: So, so for, um, kind of, kind of at the moment, the problem is that unlike Google giving us some decent amount of data through webmaster tools. None of these LLMs are giving us any data. As a business owner, none of them are giving us any data. So we're relying on third parties like Tracker. We're relying on third parties like Evert Tune.
You understand? How often are we showing up so we could get a damn click through, right? Right. We don't quite have that for now. So the AI Brand Index in Evert Tune comes the closest. Giving you some information we could use in the, so your thinking is absolutely right. Your recommendation is ly, right?
Even if you can just get the number of clicks, even if you're tracking them very [00:29:00] carefully, it's very important. Please do exactly what you said. Make the channel, it's really important. But don't, don't read too much into the click-through rate bits, because we're missing the. We're missing a very important piece of information.
Now remember when Google first came out, we didn't have tons of data. Um, and that's okay. These LLMs Pro probably will realize over time if they get into the advertising business that it's nice to give data out to other people, and so we might get more data. Until then, we are relying on these third parties that are hacking these tools to find us some data.
So we can use it to understand, uh, some of the things we readily understand about keywords and things today related to Google. So we, we sadly don't have as much visibility today as we would like to have.
George Weiner: Yeah. We really don't. Alright. I have, have a segment that I just invented. Just for you called Avanade's War Corner.
And in Avanade's War Corner, I noticed that you go to war on various concepts, which I love because it brings energy and attention to [00:30:00] frankly data and finding answers in there. So if you'll humor me in our war corner, I wanna to go through some, some classic, classic avan. Um, all right, so can you talk to me a little bit about vanity metrics, because I think they are in play.
Avinash Kaushik: Absolutely. No, no, no. Across the board, I think in whatever we do. So, so actually I'll, I'll, I'll do three. You know, so there's vanity metrics, activity metrics and outcome metrics. So basically everything goes into these three buckets essentially. So vanity metrics are, are the ones that are very easy to find, but them moving up and down has nothing to do with the number of donations you're gonna get as a nonprofit.
They're just there to ease our ego. So, for example. Let's say we are a nonprofit and we run some display ads, so measure the number of impressions that were delivered for our display ad. That's a vanity metric. It doesn't tell you anything. You could have billions of impressions. You could have 10 impressions, doesn't matter, but it is easily [00:31:00] available.
The count is easily available, so we report it. Now, what matters? What matters are, did anybody engage with the ad? What were the percent of people who hovered on the ad? What were the number of people who clicked on the ad activity metrics? Activity metrics are a little more useful than vanity metrics, but what does it matter for you as a non nonprofit?
The number of donations you received in the last 24 hours. That's an outcome metric. Vanity activity outcome. Focus on activity to diagnose how well our campaigns or efforts are doing in marketing. Focus on outcomes to understand if we're gonna stay in business or not. Sorry, dramatic. The vanity metrics.
Chasing is just like good for ego. Number of likes is a very famous one. The number of followers on a social paia, a very famous one. Number of emails sent is another favorite one. There's like a whole host of vanity metrics that are very easy to get. I cannot emphasize this enough, but when you unpack and or do meta-analysis of [00:32:00] relationship between vanity metrics and outcomes, there's a relationship between them.
So we always advise people that. Start by looking at activity metrics to help you understand the user's behavior, and then move to understanding outcome metrics because they are the reason you'll thrive. You will get more donations or you will figure out what are the things that drive more donations.
Otherwise, what you end up doing is saying. If I post provocative stuff on Facebook, I get more likes. Is that what you really wanna be doing? But if your nonprofit says, get me more likes, pretty soon, there's like a naked person on Facebook that gets a lot of likes, but it's corrupting. Yeah. So I would go with cute
George Weiner: cat, I would say, you know, you, you get the generic cute cat.
But yeah, same idea. The Internet's built on cats
Avinash Kaushik: and yes, so, so that's why I, I actively recommend people stay away from vanity metrics.
George Weiner: Yeah. Next up in War Corner, the last click [00:33:00] fallacy, right? The overweighting of this last moment of purchase, or as you'd maybe say in the do column of the See, think, do care.
Avinash Kaushik: So when the, when the, when we all started to get Google Analytics, we got Adobe Analytics web trends, remember them, we all wanted to know like what drove the conversion. Mm-hmm. I got this donation for a hundred dollars. I got a donation for a hundred thousand dollars. What drove the conversion.
And so what lo logically people would just say is, oh, where did this person come from? And I say, oh, the person came from Google. Google drove this conversion. Yeah, his last click analysis just before the conversion. Where did the person come from? Let's give them credit. But the reality is it turns out that if you look at consumer behavior, you look at days to donation, visits to donation.
Those are two metrics available in Google. It turns out that people visit multiple times before [00:34:00] they make a donation. They may have come through email, their interest might have been triggered through your email. Then they suddenly remembered, oh yeah, yeah, I wanted to go to the nonprofit and donate something.
This is Google, you. And then Google helps them find you and they come through. Now, who do you give credit Email or the Google, right? And what if you came 5, 7, 8, 10 times? So the last click fallacy is that it doesn't allow you to see the full consumer journey. It gives credit to whoever was the last person who sent you this, who introduced this person to your website.
And so very soon we move to looking at what we call MTI, Multi-Touch Attribution, which is a free solution built into Google. So you just go to your multichannel funnel reports and it will help you understand that. One, uh, 150 people came from email. Then they came from Google. Then there was a gap of nine days, and they came back from Facebook and then they [00:35:00] converted.
And what is happening is you're beginning to understand the consumer journey. If you understand the consumer journey better, we can come with better marketing. Otherwise, you would've said, oh, close shop. We don't need as many marketing people. We'll just buy ads on Google. We'll just do SEO. We're done. Oh, now you realize there's a more complex behavior happening in the consumer.
They need to solve for email. You solve for Google, you need to solve Facebook. In my hypothetical example, so I, I'm very actively recommend people look at the built-in free MTA reports inside the Google nalytics. Understand the path flow that is happening to drive donations and then undertake activities that are showing up more often in the path, and do fewer of those things that are showing up less in the path.
George Weiner: Bring these up because they have been waiting on my mind in the land of AEO. And by the way, we're not done with war. The war corner segment. There's more war there's, but there's more, more than time. But with both of these metrics where AEO, if I'm putting these glasses back on, comes [00:36:00] into play, is. Look, we're saying goodbye to frankly, what was probably somewhat of a vanity metric with regard to organic traffic coming in on that 10 facts about cube cats.
You know, like, was that really how we were like hanging our hat at night, being like. Job done. I think there's very much that in play. And then I'm a little concerned that we just told everyone to go create an AEO channel on their Google Analytics and they're gonna come in here. Avinash told me that those people are buyers.
They're immediately gonna come and buy, and why aren't they converting? What is going on here? Can you actually maybe couch that last click with the AI channel inbound? Like should I expect that to be like 10 x the amount of conversions?
Avinash Kaushik: All we can say is it's, it's going to be people with high intention.
And so with the businesses that I'm working with, what we are finding is that the conversion rates are higher. Mm. This game is too early to establish any kind of sense of if anybody has standards for AEO, they're smoking crack. Like the [00:37:00] game is simply too early. So what we I'm noticing is that in some cases, if the average conversion rate is two point half percent, the AEO traffic is converting at three, three point half.
In two or three cases, it's converting at six, seven and a half. But there is not enough stability in the data. All of this is new. There's not enough stability in the data to say, Hey, definitely you can expect it to be double or 10% more or 50% more. We, we have no idea this early stage of the game, but, but George, if we were doing this again in a year, year and a half, I think we'll have a lot more data and we'll be able to come up with some kind of standards for, for now, what's important to understand is, first thing is you're not gonna rank in an answer engine.
You just won't. If you do rank in an answer engine, you fought really hard for it. The person decided, oh my God, I really like this. Just just think of the user behavior and say, this person is really high intent because somehow [00:38:00] you showed up and somehow they found you and came to you. Chances are they're caring.
George Weiner: Yeah. They just left a conversation with a super intelligent like entity to come to your freaking 2001 website, HTML CSS rendered silliness.
Avinash Kaushik: Whatever it is, it could be the iffiest thing in the world, but they, they found me and they came to you and they decided that in the answer engine, they like you as the answer the most.
And, and it took that to get there. And so all, all, all is I'm finding in the data is that they carry higher intent and that that higher intent converts into higher conversion rates, higher donations, as to is it gonna be five 10 x higher? It's unclear at the moment, but remember, the other reason you should care about it is.
Every single day. As more people move away from Google search engines to answer engines, you're losing a ton of traffic. If somebody new showing up, treat them with, respect them with love. Treat them with [00:39:00] care because they're very precious. Just lost a hundred. Check the landing
George Weiner: pages. 'cause you may be surprised where your front door is when complexity is bringing them to you, and it's not where you spent all of your design effort on the homepage.
Avinash Kaushik: right. No. Exactly. In fact, uh, the doping deeper into your websites is becoming even more prevalent with answer engines. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, than it used to be with search engines. The search always tried to get you the, the top things. There's still a lot of diversity. Your homepage likely is still only 30% of your traffic.
Everybody else is landing on other homepage or as you call them, landing pages. So it's really, really important to look beyond your homepage. I mean, it was true yesterday. It's even truer today.
George Weiner: Yeah, my hunch and what I'm starting to see in our data is that it is also much higher on the assisted conversion like it is.
Yes. Yes, it is. Like if you have come to us from there, we are going to be seeing you again. That's right. That's right. More likely than others. It over indexes consistently for us there.
Avinash Kaushik: [00:40:00] Yes. Again, it ties back to the person has higher intent, so if they didn't convert in that lab first session, their higher intent is gonna bring them back to you.
So you are absolutely right about the data that you're seeing.
George Weiner: Um, alright. War corner, the 10 90 rule. Can you unpack this and then maybe apply it to somebody who thinks that their like AI strategy is done? 'cause they spend $20 or $200 a month on some tool and then like, call it a day. 'cause they did ai.
Avinash Kaushik: Yes, yes. No, it's, it's good. I, I developed it in context of analytics. When I was at my, uh, job at Intuit, I used to, I was at Intuit, senior director for research and analytics. And one of the things I found is people would consistently spend lots of money on tools in that time, web analytics tools, research tools, et cetera.
And, uh, so they're spending a contract of a few hundred thousand dollars or hundreds of thousands of dollars, and then they give it to a fresh graduate to find insights. [00:41:00] I was like, wait, wait, wait. So you took this $300,000 thing and gave it to somebody. You're paying $45,000 a year. Who is young in their career, young in their career, and expecting them to make you tons of money using this tool?
It's not the tool, it's the human. And so that's why I developed the the 10 90 rule, which is that if you have a, if you have a hundred dollars to invest in making smarter decisions, invest $10 in the tool, $90 in the human. We all have access to so much data, so much complexity. The world is changing so fast that it is the human that is going to figure out how to make sense of these insights rather than the tool magically spewing and understanding your business enough to tell you exactly what to do.
So that, that's sort of where the 10 90 rule came from. Now, sort of we are in this, in this, um, this is very good for nonprofits by the way. So we're in this era. Where On the 90 side? No. So the 10, look, don't spend insane money on tools that is just silly. So don't do that. Now the 90, let's talk about the [00:42:00] 90.
Up until two years ago, I had to spell all of the 90 on what I now call organic humans. You
George Weiner: glasses wearing humans, huh?
Avinash Kaushik: The development of LLM means that every single nonprofit in the world has access to roughly a third year bachelor's degree student. Like a really smart intern. For free. For free. In fact, in some instances, for some nonprofits, let's say I I just reading about this nonprofit that is cleaning up plastics in the ocean for this particular nonprofit, they have access to a p HT level environmentalist using the latest Chad GP PT 4.5, like PhD level.
So the little caveat I'm beginning to put in the 10 90 rule is on the 90. You give the 90 to the human and for free. Get the human, a very smart Bachelor's student by using LLMs in some instances. Get [00:43:00] for free a very smart TH using the LLMs. So the LLMs have now to be incorporated into your research, into your analysis, into building a next dashboard, into building a next website, into building your next mobile game into whatever the hell you're doing for free.
You can get that so you have your organic human. Less the synthetic human for free. Both of those are in the 90 and, and for nonprofit, so, so in my work at at Coach and Kate Spade. I have access now to a couple of interns who do free work for me, well for 20 minor $20 a month because I have to pay for the plus version of G bt.
So the intern costs $20 a month, but I have access to this syn synthetic human who can do a whole lot of work for me for $20 a month in my case, but it could also do it for free for you. Don't forget synthetic humans. You no longer have to rely only on the organic humans to do the 90 part. You would be stunned.
Upload [00:44:00] your latest, actually take last year's worth of donations, where they came from and all this data from you. Have a spreadsheet lying around. Dump it into chat. GPT, I'll ask it to analyze it. Help you find where most donations came from, and visualize trends to present to board of directors. It will blow your mind how good it is at do it with Gemini.
I'm not biased, I'm just seeing chat. GPD 'cause everybody knows it so much Better try it with mistrial a, a small LLM from France. So I, I wanna emphasize that what has changed over the last year is the ability for us to compliment our organic humans with these synthetic entities. Sometimes I say synthetic humans, but you get the point.
George Weiner: Yeah. I think, you know, definitely dump that spreadsheet in. Pull out the PII real quick, just, you know, make me feel better as, you know, the, the person who's gonna be promoting this to everybody, but also, you know, sort of. With that. I want to make it clear too, that like actually inside of Gemini, like Google for nonprofits has opened up access to Gemini for free is not a per user, per whatever.
You have that [00:45:00] you have notebook, LLM, and these. Are sitting in their backyards for free every day and it's like a user to lose it. 'cause you have a certain amount of intelligence tokens a day. Can you, I just like wanna climb like the tallest tree out here and just start yelling from a high building about this.
Make the case of why a nonprofit should be leveraging this free like PhD student that is sitting with their hands underneath their butts, doing nothing for them right now.
Avinash Kaushik: No, it is such a shame. By the way, I cannot add to your recommendation in using your Gemini Pro account if it's free, on top of, uh, all the benefits you can get.
Gemini Pro also comes with restrictions around their ability to use your data. They won't, uh, their ability to put your data anywhere. Gemini free versus Gemini Pro is a very protected environment. Enterprise version. So more, more security, more privacy, et cetera. That's a great benefit. And by the way, as you said, George, they can get it for free.
So, um, the, the, the, the posture you should adopt is what big companies are doing, [00:46:00] which is anytime there is a job to be done, the first question you, you should ask is, can I make the, can an AI do the job? You don't say, oh, let me send it to George. Let me email Simon, let me email Sarah. No, no, no. The first thing that should hit your head is.
I do the job because most of the time for, again, remember, third year bachelor's degree, student type, type experience and intelligence, um, AI can do it better than any human. So your instincts to be, let me outsource that kind of work so I can free up George's cycles for the harder problems that the AI cannot solve.
And by the way, you can do many things. For example, you got a grant and now Meta allows you to run X number of ads for free. Your first thing, single it. What kind of ad should I create? Go type in your nonprofit, tell it the kind of things you're doing. Tell it. Tell it the donations you want, tell it the size, donation, want.
Let it create the first 10 ads for you for free. And then you pick the one you like. And even if you have an internal [00:47:00] designer who makes ads, they'll start with ideas rather than from scratch. It's just one small example. Or you wanna figure out. You know, my email program is stuck. I'm not getting yield rates for donations.
The thing I want click the button that called that is called deep research or thinking in the LL. Click one of those two buttons and then say, I'm really struggling. I'm at wits end. I've tried all these things. Write all the detail. Write all the detail about what you've tried and now working. Can you please give me three new ideas that have worked for nonprofits who are working in water conservation?
Hmm. This would've taken a human like a few days to do. You'll have an answer in under 90 seconds. I just give two simple use cases where we can use these synthetic entities to send us, do the work for us. So the default posture in nonprofits should be, look, we're resource scrapped anyway. Why not use a free bachelor's degree student, or in some case a free PhD student to do the job, or at least get us started on a job.
So just spending 10 [00:48:00] hours on it. We only spend the last two hours. The entity entity does the first date, and that is super attractive. I use it every single day in, in one of my browsers. I have three traps open permanently. I've got Claude, I've got Mistrial, I've got Charge GPT. They are doing jobs for me all day long.
Like all day long. They're working for me. $20 each.
George Weiner: Yeah, it's an, it, it, it's truly, it's an embarrassment of riches, but also getting back to the, uh, the 10 90 is, it's still sitting there. If you haven't brought that capacity building to the person on how to prompt how to play that game of linguistic tennis with these tools, right.
They're still just a hammer on a.
Avinash Kaushik: That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Or, or in your case, you, you have access to Gemini for nonprofits. It's a fantastic tool. It's like a really nice card that could take you different places you insist on cycling everywhere. It's, it's okay cycle once in a while for health reasons.
Otherwise, just take the car, it's free.
George Weiner: Ha, you've [00:49:00] been so generous with your time. Uh, I do have one more quick war. If you, if you have, have a minute, uh, your war on funnels, and maybe this is not. Fully fair. And I am like, I hear you yelling at me every time I'm showing our marketing funnel. And I'm like, yeah, but I also have have a circle over here.
Can you, can you unpack your war on funnels and maybe bring us through, see, think, do, care and in the land of ai?
Avinash Kaushik: Yeah. Okay. So the marketing funnel is very old. It's been around for a very long time, and once I, I sort of started working at Google, access to lots more consumer research, lots more consumer behavior.
Like 20 years ago, I began to understand that there's no such thing as funnel. So what does the funnel say? The funnel says there's a group of people running around the world, they're not aware of your brand. Find them, scream at them, spray and pray advertising at them, make them aware, and then somehow magically find the exact same people again and shut them down the fricking funnel and make them consider your product.[00:50:00]
And now that they're considering, find them again, exactly the same people, and then shove them one more time. Move their purchase index and then drag them to your website. The thing is this linearity that there's no evidence in the universe that this linearity exists. For example, uh, I'm going on a, I like long bike rides, um, and I just got thirsty.
I picked up the first brand. I could see a water. No awareness, no consideration, no purchase in debt. I just need water. A lot of people will buy your brand because you happen to be the cheapest. I don't give a crap about anything else, right? So, um, uh, uh, the other thing to understand is, uh, one of the brands I adore and have lots of is the brand.
Patagonia. I love Patagonia. I, I don't use the word love for I think any other brand. I love Patagonia, right? For Patagonia. I'm always in the awareness stage because I always want these incredible stories that brand ambassadors tell about how they're helping the environment. [00:51:00] I have more Patagonia products than I should have.
I'm already customer. I'm always open to new considerations of Patagonia products, new innovations they're bringing, and then once in a while, I'm always in need to buy a Patagonia product. I'm evaluating them. So this idea that the human is in one of these stages and your job is to shove them down, the funnel is just fatally flawed, no evidence for it.
Instead, what you want to do is what is Ash's intent at the moment? He would like environmental stories about how we're improving planet earth. Patagonia will say, I wanna make him aware of my environmental stories, but if they only thought of marketing and selling, they wouldn't put me in the awareness because I'm already a customer who buys lots of stuff from already, right?
Or sometimes I'm like, oh, I'm, I'm heading over to London next week. Um, I need a thing, jacket. So yeah, consideration show up even though I'm your customer. So this seating do care is a framework that [00:52:00] says, rather than shoving people down things that don't exist and wasting your money, your marketing should be able to discern any human's intent and then be able to respond with a piece of content.
Sometimes that piece of content in an is an ad. Sometimes it's a webpage, sometimes it's an email. Sometimes it's a video. Sometimes it's a podcast. This idea of understanding intent is the bedrock on which seat do care is built about, and it creates fully customer-centric marketing. It is harder to do because intent is harder to infer, but if you wanna build a competitive advantage for yourself.
George Weiner: Well, I think that's a, a great point to, to end on. And again, so generous with, uh, you know, all the work you do and also supporting nonprofits in the many ways that you do. And I'm, uh, always, always watching and seeing what I'm missing when, um, when a new, uh, AKA's Razor and Newsletter come out.
So any final sign off [00:53:00] here on how do people find you? How do people help you? Let's hear it.
Avinash Kaushik: You can just Google or answer Engine Me. It's, I'm not hard. I hard to find, but if you're a nonprofit, you can sign up for my newsletter, TMAI marketing analytics newsletter. Um, there's a free one and a paid one, so you can just sign up for the free one.
It's a newsletter that comes out every five weeks. It's completely free, no strings or anything. And that way I'll be happy to share my stories around better marketing and analytics using the free newsletter for you so you can sign up for that.
George Weiner: Brilliant. Well, thank you so much, Avan. And maybe, maybe we'll have to take you up on that offer to talk sometime next year and see, uh, if maybe we're, we're all just sort of, uh, hanging out with synthetic humans nonstop.
Thank you so much. It was fun, George. [00:54:00]
