“You’ve gotta respect the incredible amount of hustle that independents bring, that our communities bring, that is defined inside of the history in public broadcasting. There's been a lot of hustle. That hustle's not going away.” - Joaquin Alvarado

In the final episode of Season 2, Grace and her fellow Viewers Like Us co-creators, Ken Ikeda and Joaquin Alvarado, reconvene in Oakland, California for a candid roundtable conversation about the fraught state of the public media union. The trio reflects on lessons learned from making Season 1 of the podcast, from 2021 to the present, and uplifts resonant takeaways from a series of interactive worldbuilding sessions organized by VLU in 2022. Facilitated by Tony Patrick, these sessions allowed industry peers and leaders in the arts, documentary, and media sectors to collectively envision more dynamic, sustainable paths forward in support of all those who are eager to tell an abundance of American stories. Grace, Joaquin, and Ken also call in young makers to join the critical fight to build a better, more innovative future for public media — albeit in whatever new, reimagined forms it may take in the months ahead.

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“The worst thing that can happen is that [young makers] stop. That's what they're trying to do. They're trying to scare folks into not creating, not sharing their voices, not telling our stories. And that’s not acceptable. We're not going back.” - Leslie Fields-Cruz

Grace continues to unpack the devastating fallout from the Republican-led rescission package to defund CPB—the conduit for federal funding to NPR, PBS, and their member stations—alongside Leslie Fields-Cruz, executive director of Black Public Media, and Don Young, executive director of CAAM. Leslie and Don share their respective organizations’ origin stories and reflect on what prior decades of independent maker-led organizing, particularly the work of veteran indie filmmaker and producer Loni Ding, made possible for public media.

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“Being able to give people things to discuss, to have an honest and intelligent discussion, is important. Dialogue leads to action, and we can't lose that.” - Erika Dilday

Following the passage of the Trump administration's rescission package to defund public media, including $1.1 billion for the Corporation for Public Broadcasting (CPB), Grace speaks with Erika Dilday in her capacity as executive director of American Documentary, Inc., and executive producer of its award-winning documentary series POV on PBS. Erika shares potential ways forward from her corner of the public broadcasting world; addresses the censorship claims related to Jane M. Wagner’s debut feature documentary, "Break the Game" (2023), the focus of this season’s fourth episode; and discusses her experiences of collaborating with Ken Burns on a forthcoming documentary series, "Emancipation to Exodus." 

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“Making some noise can make a difference, and I hope that would be encouraging to people who are afraid, especially in this political climate.” - Jane M. Wagner

Grace speaks with filmmaker and television producer Jane M. Wagner about her debut feature documentary, "Break the Game" (2023). Jane’s film, centered on world-record-holding gamer Narcissa Wright and her experience coming out as a trans woman, explores “gamer culture, the realities of online harassment, and the mental health implications of living a digital life.” The film’s unexpectedly rocky rollout — PBS indefinitely postponed its POV broadcast, before offering a later date — offers a cautionary tale for anyone navigating the crisis-filled waters of public media right now. Jane’s innovative approach to ensuring that her film reached audiences, on her own terms, will hopefully spark inspiration for how fellow filmmakers can connect with and share their work directly with the public, no matter what happens next with PBS.

The documentary makes its national broadcast premiere on PBS’s POV Monday, June 30, 2025 at 10 p.m. (check local listings). It will be available to stream until July 30, 2025 at pbs.org and via the PBS App.

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“The idea of preemptively censoring, before any executive order or decision — not only do you feel violated, but I felt I could not go to any institution for potential protection or support for my independent voice.” - Michèle Stephenson

Grace convenes fellow filmmakers Cecilia Aldarondo, Marjan Safinia, and Michèle Stephenson (see full bios and links to films in episode show notes) for a conversation on something that’s sparked serious concern for all four of them in recent months: the elimination of many educational and curriculum materials accompanying their films on the PBS LearningMedia website.

As with all of our episodes this season, Grace and the VLU team aim to capture what's happening in real time — to document for public awareness and, hopefully, catalyze further conversation and action among independent filmmakers, multimedia storytellers, and people working both in and beyond PBS.

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“I don't know if there's anything in history that we've ever seen in civic life [like] what we're seeing. But I do know, like Frederick Douglass and Susan B. Anthony, we have to speak up…we have to be willing to put ourselves on the line. At the very least, I get to use my voice and put some things on the line.” - Chris Hastings, president and chief executive officer of WXXI Public Media in Rochester, NY; former executive producer and editor-in-chief of GBH’s WORLD Channel in Boston

On June 12, 2025, the House narrowly voted (214-212) to cut nearly $1.1 billion in funding from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, which funds PBS and NPR. This will significantly impact smaller stations serving rural communities nationwide. This bill now advances to the Senate.

In our second episode of Season 2, Grace Lee talks with WXXI’s Chris Hastings about recent staff layoffs and federal funding cuts roiling public media, preserving trusted information as a vital public resource, and what innovation looks like to him while navigating the ‘Upside Down’ present. 

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“I'm talking about it because I think it's important for people to know the little ‘death by a thousand cuts’ that are happening. I don't think that appeasement is the way to maintain our free speech rights and our democracy.” - Alicia Sams

In fall 2021, independent filmmaker Grace Lee launched Viewers Like Us, a six-part podcast series that asked: What will it take to restore the entire public to public media? Now, four years later, public media funding is under fire from the Trump administration, and Grace is hearing disturbing stories — directly from fellow filmmakers — of censorship within the PBS system.

With so much of our journalism being targeted, we want to show up for our community of independent filmmakers, storytellers, and journalists, as well as document how PBS is responding to these threats. 

In the coming weeks, VLU will publish six new episodes, giving the mic to different voices — starting with Emmy-Award winning producer/director Alicia Sams — to share their experiences of this moment and figure out how we move forward together, in real time. 

To kick off season two, Grace and Alicia discuss how PBS censored her recent film on Pulitzer Prize-winning cartoonist Art Spiegelman, how the filmmakers responded, and what these actions might mean for independent filmmakers moving forward. 

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In the United States, there’s a “public” element to all broadcasting over the federally regulated airwaves. Audiences have the right to speak up about the changes we expect on the air. That’s why a commercial broadcast license challenge — launched decades ago, yet still within living memory — intrigued Viewers Like Us’s investigative reporter Akintunde Ahmad. Special thanks to Randall Pinkston for this interview. Learn more about his life and career: https://www.thehistorymakers.org/biography/randall-pinkston

Correction: An earlier version of this bonus interview excerpt misidentified the party that assumed control of WLBT’s broadcast license in 1980 as Communications Improvement Inc. CCI was the interim operator of the station for nine years after the FCC ordered the original owner to vacate the license. The excerpt has been updated for accuracy.

The Viewers Like Us team has spoken with filmmakers, journalists, DEI officers, a member of Congress, station managers and so many others who care about the future of public media. All provide reasons to stay energized and engaged in the work of pushing PBS to live up to its founding mission. But the exhaustion and burnout that comes with organizing for systemic change is real. In our season finale, we consider what—and who—will determine the vibrancy and sustainability of PBS and its audiences moving forward.

This episode includes an update to Myrton Running Wolf’s story shared in Episode 4, about his painful experience in a mentorship program run out of Boston’s public television station, GBH.
Grace talks with Jihan Robinson, who currently helps lead documentaries at Hulu’s ONYX Collective, a BIPOC-led entertainment brand. Jihan underscores that tangible change will require ongoing investment and work by white people working in media, commercial and public alike. We also hear from filmmaker Kristi Jacobson, who shares what solidarity and accountability in the fight for racial justice and equity in media looks like for her and other white people.

Grace and Tunde reflect on what they’ve learned while making this podcast. And of course, we couldn’t end this series without hearing from you, our listeners.

In 2022, we encourage you to continue following this project as it evolves, on Twitter (@_ViewersLikeUs_) and through our website (https://viewerslikeus.com/). Because we know what it’s going to take for PBS to finally listen: the voices, ideas, care and feedback of viewers like us.

Explore show notes, episode transcript and more at: https://viewerslikeus.com/podcast/episode-6-its-not-over/

In the decades-long struggle toward an equitable public media system, what will it take to move from mere talk to actionable change?

As you’ve heard throughout the series, countless BIPOC creators have dedicated themselves for decades to keeping PBS’s mission and relevance on track. Many people working within the system have done the same. With so many wanting to see PBS thrive, what's holding it back? In our fifth episode, we dig into two essential components for delivering on long-overdue change in public media: data transparency and accountability. We speak to Dacia Mitchell, Director of Diversity, Equity, & Inclusion at San Francisco’s KQED, about the necessity of white leaders and media makers moving through their fear and discomfort in order to actively dismantle systemic racism. We hear from Representative Joaquin Castro on why public TV has to be front and center in terms of combating cultural exclusion in media. Darnell Hunt, Dean of Social Sciences at UCLA, shares some revealing data about PBS scripted dramas. Richard Jean So, a professor at McGill University who’s studied racial inequities in the publishing industry, guides us on taking data collection into our own hands. Plus, we embark on our own not-so-scientific study using an official PBS publication: the Shop PBS catalog.

Explore show notes, episode transcript and more at: https://viewerslikeus.com/podcast/episode-5-dont-go-chasing-watersheds/