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Watchmen Issue #5, “Fearful Symmetry”
What do you see in the fifth issue of Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons’ Watchmen, “Fearful Symmetry”? The focus turns to Rorschach, as he gets closer to discovering the truth about Eddie Blake’s murder — and the police get closer to him. Plus, we explore Alan Moore’s greatest Dad jokes.
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The theme music for Watchmen Watch was written and performed by Jeff Solomon.
Plus, here’s a transcript of the episode for you to read through as you listen:
Alex: Welcome
to Watchmen Watch, a podcast about Watchmen, where we talk about Watchmen the
comic, we talk about Watchmen the TV show, we talk about Watchmen the movie, we
talk about Watchmen the bread, we talk about Watchmen the breakfast cereal, Watchmen
the shoes, Watchmen the building, Watchmen my cousin, who is named Watchmen
Zalben. We talk about all of this and so much more on this podcast. I am Alex.
Justin: I’m
Justin.
Pete: I
am Pete. And it’s too much Alex, it’s too much.
Alex: It’s
never enough.
Pete: Too
much watching.
Alex: It’s
never enough. You watch things with your eyes, it’s an unlimited amount of
things you can watch. So that’s what’s exciting about it. Justin-
Pete: I
watch things with my heart.
Justin: Nice.
Me too, buddy.
Alex: I
couldn’t help but notice, our fourth co-host, he’s not here. What’s going on?
You got any news on that?
Justin: Ah
yes, I was hoping it wouldn’t come up, but it does, because he’s one of four.
He just texted me, Alan Moore, our fourth co-host, the writer of Watchmen, very
famous. He really has planned on being here, but he’s finished taking his name
off stuff and now he’s taking my name off stuff.
Alex: What?
Pete: Oh
man.
Justin: He’s
erasing, I won’t have an identity. He took my name off my birth certificate.
Alex: Oh
that’s crazy. I was going to say, you just released that erotic novella.
Justin: Yeah.
Thank you for pronouncing it correctly. As I said, lightly Italian. It is a
novella.
Alex: You
had a really beautiful reception the other day. Alan Moore was there. We got a
little tipsy on some pink sparkling champagne bubbles, some pink bubbles as he
likes to call them.
Justin: Yes.
My drink of choice, yep.
Alex: Yeah.
But I’m sad he’s not here. I was very excited to talk about this issue. We’re
going to be talking about issue five of Watchmen, Fearful Symmetry. Pete, I
know you’re clapping because you love fear, right?
Pete: No.
This was one of my favorite issues.
Justin: He
loves symmetry. Pete’s a symmetry dude. Real chasing butterflies type guy.
Alex: Well
this is interesting. This is something that’s come up that we’ve talked about a
little bit when we first launched the podcast on our Patreon Slack. People were
saying, “Eww, I wonder what’s going to happen when Pete gets the issue
about Rorschach because the discussion which I thought was very well-said with
the Patreon members, a bunch of people were talking about how Rorschach as a
teenager or potentially when you first read Watchmen when you’re sort of coming
of age, you potentially identify with Rorschach. You’re like, “Oh, I’m
this other. I’m this nerd who’s reading comic books.”
Alex: But
as you get older and particularly now, you understand that Rorschach is a bit
of a conspiracy nut and that’s saying it very lightly. And that’s something
that they’re playing off of. We talked about this in the preview episode on the
HBO show. They’re blowing it out there, having seemingly a bunch of people
called the Seventh Cavalry who completely misunderstood the writings of
Rorschach and are using him to spur on an alt-right-esque movement.
Alex: Now
this is the issue, last issue, focused almost completely on Doctor Manhattan,
his origin, what was going on in his head.
Justin: Yeah.
It was a real thinking man’s issue.
Alex: It
was. This issue, it’s not completely Rorschach, but it’s certainly the
Rorschach issue. Is that why you were excited, Pete? And in total, given that
you do love Rorschach that much, but we’ve been having these discussions in the
podcast, did you view this issue any differently?
Pete: No.
I still very much love Rorschach, think he’s a solid dude. I … It’s funny
because …
Justin: Solid
dude. He’s [crosstalk 00:03:43] my bachelor party.
Alex: Do
you know what? I would expect the most Rorschach if he saw you, give you a
sweet fist bump.
Pete: Yeah.
Yeah. I tell you what, though, it’s funny because now I relate the dude reading
the comic next to the newsstand.
Justin: Why
is that, because you read comics?
Pete: Because
I read comics and I swear the same way he does. So yeah, I still think Rorschach
is great. I don’t know, I love how grimy he is, how real and raw he is, his
problem with authority. I think he’s a solid character and I think he’s a lot
of fun. I definitely don’t agree with a lot of his [crosstalk 00:04:29].
Justin: I
would argue that he is not. He’s not fun.
Pete: What’s
that?
Justin: He’s
not fun. I would argue he’s not fun.
Pete: Oh
weird.
Justin: He’s
super negative. He has a horrible world view.
Pete: But
what about that whole thing about look behind you? That was fun. What about
shoving that dude in the fridge? That was fun.
Justin: Well,
he’s throwing around this poor, broken-down man who’s dying anyway and he’s one
of the few people that Rorschach encounters who is truly below him and I think
he takes pleasure in inflicting pain on him which is something not super
heroic.
Pete: Right.
Justin: And
I just think Rorschach is conspiracy theorist sort of head space and the fact
that he doubts everything happens to be right in this case and he’s the only
one that sniffs out the mystery here. But think of any other day in his life
before this when he was like, “Oh, look at this diner flyer,” from
the …
Pete: Yeah.
But it’s all leading up to this day, though. This is when he’s the hero.
Justin: But
there’s so many days that he was just shaking down some random strangers and
them for something that wasn’t there.
Pete: That’s
just him sacrificing himself for the moment.
Justin: And
also, all the people he beats up because he thinks they ate at the same diner where
there was a crime.
Pete: Right.
Right. That makes sense. Well I just want to say, though, I’m not saying that I
agree with how he’s doing things, just someone who’s reading a comic, I think
he’s a fun character and I’m super glad that he’s a part of this world. I love
how he fits into all of this.
Alex: Wait.
Sorry. Are you talking about the kid sitting next to the newsstand or
Rorschach?
Justin: Rorschach.
Pete: Well
I mean it’s a great character in the story.
Justin: Right.
Pete: Alex’s
point, it’s just so interesting the way you read it when you’re a kid and it’s
cool to be … and this was also when we were reading this was probably in the
mid-to-late ’90s/early 2000s, where badass comics were all about who is this
mysterious badass who dwells in darkness? All that shit. And he seemed just
cool and now you see all the stuff that sticks out. It’s whoa! His world view
is actually the bad.
Alex: Well
on a thematic bent, just to take a step back from this a bit and we were
talking about this quite a bit during the Doctor Manhattan podcast, but I think
it’s also very much applicable here. Among the other themes that they’re
dealing with very heavily in this comic, on the character bent, it’s a lot
about can you change?
Justin: Yeah.
Alex: And
more than can you change, it’s can you change from whatever your formative
point was? That’s something that Doctor Manhattan is dealing with. He was
remade when he was blasted apart. Is he Jon Osterman? Is he Doctor Manhattan?
What is he now? Is he something that exists simultaneously in that moment when
he was destroyed, as well as the past and present and future? And Rorschach …
Pete: Or
is he the pirate and you know, on that raft?
Justin: That’s
the one thing I don’t think he is.
Alex: No.
No. He’s not. Again, I was talking about Doctor Manhattan. But Rorschach is …
very good, jumping all over the place, Pete. Rorschach in a parallel, he is the
character that cannot move on from the heyday of being a vigilante. The very
rare glimpses we get of him during his partnership with Nite Owl, that’s when
it seems like he was probably at his best, right?
Justin: Yeah.
Alex: He
was at his cleanest. He was probably not happy, but he was certainly at his
happiest. And he is the person that is holding onto that. He’s the person
that’s resisted the Keene Act, resisted the future and ultimately to jump ahead
to the end of the story, that’s his undoing. He can’t change. He can’t move
forward with the times, even though Adrian Veidt is the person who is adapting
to the times and not only adapting to them, but trying to force them forward in
a certain way. So I think that something that plays really heavily here is …
Justin: I
mean it checks out. I think that’s why Rorschach is such a perfect name and
identity for him. The world around him is changing. He does not and so the
interpretation of his actions is different. Just like the Rorschach Test,
depending on who’s looking at it …
Alex: Yeah,
exactly.
Justin: They’re
going to see whatever they see in it. And I also think that plays into how we
read this when we were younger and we’re reading it now and we have a totally
different interpretation because we’ve changed. This character has not changed.
The Rorschach blot is exactly what it was when Alan Moore wrote this and Dave
Gibbons drew it and now we have a totally different understanding of him. And
that’s amazing to have that level of synergy. So cool.
Pete: It
also says something about the writing, how it’s the same. You change around it.
You get different things from it, you know? It’s pretty awesome.
Alex: The
other thing that I’d say, though, is that Watchmen was so influential, the
comics, that as you were pointing out, Justin, we … I know I didn’t read
Watchmen when it came out in 1986. I probably read it 10 years later after
there had been a full decade of Watchmen influencing comics and then there was
a reaction to that reaction and a reaction to that reaction and so on and so
forth.
Alex: So
whereas Watchmen was coming out and redefining things as it was happening, this
also, we’ve seen, we’ve grown up reading comics for the past couple of decades
that have influenced our thinking about comics. We’ve seen comics … You know,
just to get into the specific structure of this issue, I thought it was funny
because we were reading this one because there’s another comic book that we
read recently that we reviewed that was very similar structurally.
Alex: So
this is structured like a Rorschach blot. It’s essentially a palindrome. It
starts at the beginning, meets in the middle and then parallels towards the
end. There’s a book called Ice Cream Man that came out recently that did that,
as well. It was more specifically a palindrome where you could read it
backwards and forwards and change the story, depending on how you looked at it,
which clearly is based on this issue. So even now, even decades later, there
are still comic books that are adapting and using the influence of Watchmen,
which makes a lot of sense.
Alex: Should
we jump into the issue? Should we walk through it?
Justin: Yeah.
Let’s walk through it. Do you wish that there were more characters named after
psychological evaluation tests?
Alex: Absolutely.
Justin: Like
role play would be a fun … Okay you, I’m the hero, but now I’m going to be
the villain, you be the hero and let’s see how this goes.
Alex: Yeah.
There was that comic book that came out that was called Sometimes Just A Cigar
Man.
Justin: Oh
yes, yes.
Alex: That
was kind of interesting. Of course, Oedipus, the original superhero.
Justin: Oh
yeah, yeah. Cool.
Alex: So
here, I’ll start walking us through the issue. So we have this first page,
which again is paralleled in the final page, as well, where we see some
footsteps. One of the great things about this issue in particular, we’ve talked
certainly about Alan Moore and we’ve talked about Dave Gibbons, we’ve only
touched on John Higgins’ coloring a little bit in various issues. It’s so
prominent here because almost every panel changes the coloring. There’s almost
a light flashing back and forth, sort of rolling back and forth here.
Alex: And
we get that in particular, it sets that up right in the first page as somebody,
it turns out it’s Rorschach, walks up this dirty stairway on his way to find
Moloch, who he knows, knows more about whatever conspiracy is going on.
Alex: And
then to Pete’s point, I sort of get what Pete’s saying because you do have a
sense of the extreme vigilante, the punisher and whatnot, him doing things
where he … Moloch slowly walks through his house and then eventually finds a
note in the refrigerator with a Rorschach blot that says behind you. And then
he turns around and Rorschach is there and Rorschach pushes him into the
fridge. What do you think, Justin? You seem a little conflicted about this.
Moves like this, are they cool to you or do they feel dangerous?
Justin: It
was cool. It’s a cool move. It’s a cool storytelling thing, but putting myself
in the head of Rorschach, why do this to this poor … He’s just scaring. Maybe
I just have more sympathy for Moloch now. He didn’t need to … This is like
playing a prank on this poor man who he knows he’s dying, he knows he’s
terrified. It’s just unnecessary. And then you’re just going to hassle him
anyway.
Pete: Yeah.
But just to back up the truck a little bit, the coloring … Just it’s one of
these things where it’s art and stuff like this that makes it so easy to go
back to this book, because the paneling, because the coloring is so awesome. It
doesn’t get tired to look at it and to kind of go back and re-read it again.
There is so much cool stuff going on in this book that it’s just, you know, you
kind of, as we mentioned, get different stuff.
Pete: But
yeah. Sure. But he doesn’t know what’s going on with Moloch. He thinks that
Moloch is maybe holding back information. So regardless of his health,
regardless of that stuff, he wants information and he feels he’s in the right
and getting it this kind of gruff, you know, overly masculine way.
Justin: I
mean I take that point. I guess Moloch could be involved somehow.
Pete: Right.
Justin: But
do you think Rorschach thinks that he is here?
Pete: Well
he definitely does because he goes to his place to get info from him and in his
mind, it’s he knows what’s going on, he’s on the list, he’s got to be in the
loop.
Alex: I
do think Moloch, not Moloch, excuse me, Rorschach is very much grasping at
straws. This is one of the flaws with him, right, is that he is eventually
right. He does manage to stumble on the right answers, but he’s going for
everything. There was an issue back where he looked at Laurie and Dan being
together and he was like, “Well, well, well. They’re probably cheating on
Doctor Manhattan. Maybe they planned the whole thing. Maybe it’s Laurie. I’m
going to go after her.” Which is just as crazy as any other possibility.
It just turns out he stuffs Moloch in a fridge and eventually discovers the
right answer and gets on the right track with things.
Alex: To
your point, Justin, I think part of it is that we’ve already … Now we’re five
issues in, right? These superheroes are not good people. They haven’t had a
good relationship with the world. They haven’t done a good thing. So if it was
another comic book or like, “Fuck yeah, Rorschach. Yeah. Go for it
Rorschach. Get him. Get that fucker Moloch the Mystic.” I get it, but we
know he’s a sick dude with cancer who maybe did some not so nice things in the
past, but ultimately, he’s going to die very soon. So it’s not deserved what’s
happening to him from Rorschach.
Justin: And
at the end of this issue, he goes back to hassle Moloch again and that’s where
he gets caught. So he does pay a price for his cruelty.
Pete: Well,
no, no, no.
Justin: And
at the end of his panel …
Pete: Hold
on. Hold on a second. Hold on a second. First off, when he’s got the fridge
closed, there’s that whole panel where Rorschach is thinking and then he
realizes oh, I’m wrong. I’m going to let him out of the fridge. And the only
reason he goes back to his place is not to beat information out of him, it’s
because he got a note in the trashcan that says, “Meet me at 11:30. I have
news.” So he doesn’t go back to harass him. He gets set up.
Alex: I
think you’re wrong about that and I think you’re wrong on both counts. First of
all, with the refrigerator thing, he’s stuffing Moloch in the refrigerator and
Moloch says, “Oh no, no, no. Oh God, don’t. Rorschach please, it wasn’t
me. I don’t know. I don’t know who it was.” He closed him in the
refrigerator and he doesn’t think better of it. He realizes okay, I think
Moloch is kind of telling me the truth now, so I’ll go let him out of this
refrigerator.
Pete: Yeah,
he doesn’t know.
Alex: He
doesn’t feel bad about it.
Pete: No.
He realizes, oh, he doesn’t know anything and he lets him out.
Alex: I
guess. But I don’t know. Rorschach’s not a good guy here. I’m sorry.
Justin: And
he hasn’t slept in many days, so he’s not thinking straight.
Pete: Right.
Alex: Right.
Have you ever been stuffed in a fridge Pete?
Pete: Huh.
I’m thinking.
Alex: What’s
the weirdest place you’ve ever been stuffed Pete?
Pete: In
a locker. I had my head shoved in the toilet for a swirley.
Alex: Oh
jeez. Yikes. Wait, were you really stuffed in a locker?
Pete: Yeah
dude.
Alex: By
a bully.
Pete: Yeah.
Alex: Oh
man.
Pete: Football
players.
Alex: Oh
wow. I had to do that to myself.
Justin: Oh,
you didn’t even have a bully?
Alex: No.
That’s not a joke.
Justin: Back
in my day, we didn’t have bullies. Last week of school [crosstalk 00:17:26].
Alex: I
was a nerd. I had never been stuffed in a locker, so I stuffed myself in a
locker just to get the experience.
Justin: Wow,
nice. Got your cred.
Alex: Yeah,
I did.
Pete: Did
you close it all the way and did someone have to let you out?
Alex: Yeah.
I closed it all the way and my friend was waiting out there and I said,
“Okay, you can let me out now.” And then he did.
Pete: Okay.
Justin: Did
you give yourself a wedgie? Were you playing out your own father issues on
yourself?
Alex: Listen.
I don’t want to get into it, but yes.
Justin: Did
you comb your hair back?
Alex: Wait.
Hold on Justin. I see what you’re doing. Where’s the weirdest place you’ve been
stuffed?
Justin: Oh,
interesting. I guess I haven’t really been stuffed in a lot of places. I was in
a cave once for a long time.
Alex: For
a long time?
Justin: Well
I was in there. I was like, “I don’t want to leave.”
Alex: Oh
okay. You went on a cave tour?
Justin: Oh.
I was in a culvert underneath a railroad tracks and there was a beaver in there
with us and that was a place I didn’t want to be.
Alex: Were
you in a cartoon at the time or what was going on?
Justin: This
was just out … My countrified cred which clashes my nerd cred. There was a
beaver dam we had to break up because the water in the lake was getting too
high, so we had to go down and break up the beaver dam. And part of doing that,
we crawled into this culvert because it was dammed up and the beaver happened
to be there and he was in the water like the monster in Star Wars in A New Hope
that’s after them in the trash compacter.
Pete: Yeah.
In the trash compacter, right?
Justin: Yeah.
Pete: That’s
called Dianoga. Anyway, go on.
Alex: Did
you try shooting the beaver with your laser gun?
Justin: Alex,
get back in your locker for saying that.
Alex: All
right. Yeah. Sorry about that guys.
Justin: You
didn’t need to say that. Get in your locker. And that’s where my third brother
was killed by that beaver that day.
Alex: Oh
Jesus.
Pete: Oh
man.
Justin: Wow,
the third Tyler brother.
Alex: They
rumored that for so long in the comics and then finally they revealed the third
Tyler brother. That was huge.
Justin: Yeah.
We called him Jason X.
Pete: Oh
dude. You’re way to casual.
Alex: Let’s
get to Rorschach just for a second. So as he’s walking out of Moloch’s place,
we get a glimpse again of the sign that’s outside there which is a skull and
crossbones made out of an R. To the point that Pete made earlier, do you think,
at least in this issue or is it all of the issues, that Rorschach is the pirate
in Tales of the Black Freighter? Could be?
Justin: Interesting.
Yes. I mean, this issue has the most Black Freighter stuff up to this point, as
well. And he is the one who’s life is at the ultimate low point, where he’s
lashing together pieces of information like the dead bodies of the people
around him. I would argue that’s what his world view is, that nothing is
worthwhile. He’s just trying to get by and he’s willing to do anything no
matter how horrifying to keep moving.
Alex: Well
and he’s also the person who is … He’s the only one that realizes there’s
some sort of doom coming, unlike the pirate in Tales of the Black Freighter who
knows specifically it’s the Black Freighter that’s coming for everybody, that’s
coming for his family. Rorschach doesn’t know what it is yet. He just knows
something bad is going to happen and he’s trying to go as fast as he can to
stop it while everybody else, Dan, Laurie, even Doctor Manhattan are kind of
just going about their lives and doing their own things. So I think that point
is well-made, Pete. Then we …
Pete: Ah-hah.
Alex: Yeah.
Then we get a scene with the two cops who are such interesting characters to
me.
Pete: Really?
Alex: Well
they’re interesting because there’s all these other bigger than life, lifelike
characters which are the superheroes, the Minute Men and the Crime Busters and
everybody else. And then you just have these two cops on the beat who keep
coming in every once in a while sort of like a Rosencrantz and Guildenstern
figure. And it’s fun to see them. I don’t remember how many more times they
turn up, but it was surprising to me to see them again in this issue.
Pete: What?
Alex: What?
Pete: All
right. Well before I unpack that, I just want to talk about I love how, you
know, we kind of have Rorschach’s journal talking about a flash of
enlightenment and then you kind of, the next panel is Buddha on the back of a
door, you know, with blood. I think that’s pretty awesome.
Justin: You
love a little Buddha?
Alex: You
love a little Buddha?
Pete: Well
I love the enlightenment cut-to. I think that’s a fun thing.
Alex: Well
a couple of things about it. I mean first of all, it has the same blood splash
as what’s going on on Eddie Blake’s smiley button, so it’s definitely a bit
defaced in that way. It’s exactly the same way. And then also, it’s something
that’s perfectly even and parallel like the Rorschach blot, like the sign outside
Moloch the Mystic. So there’s that …
Pete: Also
like Doctor Manhattan’s world he’s building on Mars.
Alex: No,
I don’t think so. I mean, that’s a little uneven in terms of his watch cogs and
stuff, right? He’s just trying to create order, but Rorschach has the same
thing backwards and forwards and I think that’s what’s going on.
Pete: I
don’t know why you’re fighting me on this.
Alex: Well,
we also get … we also get in the first half of the issue, we get this
triangle with the Buddha and in the second half of the issue, we get the
triangle with the, oh gosh what do you call them? Gay … not gay/lesbians.
Whatever they’re called in this world. It’s something slightly different than
what it actually should be. We’ll find it when we get to it.
Pete: Yeah.
I’m just saying, though, when Doctor Manhattan is floating on Mars, all these
triangles start appearing in the ground and then keep growing up.
Alex: Yeah.
Those are the watch cogs.
Pete: Right.
But I’m saying they look like triangles, which is what Buddha is in [crosstalk
00:23:23].
Alex: They’re
wheels. They’re circles Pete.
Justin: We
see a lot of triangles just in [inaudible 00:23:27].
Pete: Dude.
You’re killing me man. The page here, there’s just literally triangles on it
where Doctor Manhattan is … I don’t know why you’re fighting that [crosstalk
00:23:36].
Justin: If
you go to the next page, there’s a triangle. Think about that.
Alex: Yeah.
If you fold over the corner of the page, there’s a triangle.
Pete: Okay.
Cool.
Justin: Pete’s
is a triangle.
Alex: All
I’m saying is some people see triangles, some people see circles. Let’s just
call them shapes, you know?
Pete: All
right. Let’s talk about the cops that you love so much.
Alex: I
do like those cops. But I think we could actually move on. We talked about the
Black Freighter a little bit. There’s a scene …
Pete: Wait.
Why do you like the cops? They don’t seem very good at their job or aware of
anything.
Alex: I
like them because I am curious to see more of them and how they play into the
narrative.
Pete: Okay.
Alex: That’s
all. I’m [crosstalk 00:24:20].
Justin: You
may feel like they’re just another example of sort of the bleakness of the
everyday world. We get these two scenes back-to-back with the cops who sort of
don’t know what they’re doing and just talking about how the world is all
fucked. And then the next scene is the kid reading the comic book or I guess
the man reading the comic book and the newspaper dealer. And they’re talking
about the same thing, but they’re sort of a little more scared, as opposed to
being resigned to their fate.
Pete: Yeah.
Now I just want to also say we talked about reading it younger and then reading
it now. When I was a kid, I definitely didn’t pick up on how meta this was,
having a kid read the comic while I’m reading the comic, you know?
Alex: Do
you think, it would have been kind of interesting if they had the pirate in the
Black Freighter tale also reading a comic, maybe a comic about Pete LePage?
Justin: Oh,
that’s good.
Pete: I
think I would have picked up on that when I was younger.
Justin: Maybe
they’ll do that in the show.
Alex: Personalized
shows. That’s the next iteration. After that, we get a quick scene with Dan and
Laurie as their relationship starts to build a little bit in this issue. Laurie
has been kicked out of the place she was living. She’s lost all of her money.
She doesn’t necessarily want to look for a handout, but Dan offers, says,
“Hey, you can stay at my place. That’s absolutely fine.” And there’s
this great panel. We’ve talked a lot about the juxtaposition in this comic
book. But this great panel at the end where they’ve finished their meal,
they’re walking away and it says, “We’re both leftovers.”
Justin: Yeah.
Pete: Yeah.
Alex: Now
the other thing …
Justin: HBO’s
The Leftovers.
Alex: HBO’s
The Leftovers. It’s a huge hint going on there.
Justin: Synergy.
Alex: He
also says we’re lost.
Justin: Yeah.
Alex: And
#DamonLindelof.
Justin: It’s
crazy they said hashtag back then because that was sort of not very popular.
Maybe they …
Pete: Now
Justin …
Justin: Yes.
Pete: When
you were … it was just you and the beaver in that, you know, little tunnel
thing …
Justin: Culvert.
Pete: Did
you see … Oh, sorry. We see a, you know, a guy stranded in a raft and kind of
pulls a pigeon out of the air and eats it and then it cuts to, you know, Nite
Owl there eating, kind of holding it the same way. Were you worried it would
come down to you and the beaver and you would have to eat the beaver?
Justin: Yeah.
I’d eat the beaver and I’d make a little hat out of it. No, it was just, I
didn’t like when the beaver was bumping into my leg with it’s sharp teeth.
Pete: Ouch.
That’s terrifying.
Justin: I’m
not … You know, a beaver is not a scary animal, but put yourself in a tube where
you can’t really see the exit, it’s very far away, it gets scary.
Alex: I
want to say something else about …
Justin: One
quick thing.
Alex: Yeah,
please.
Justin: Before
we move on, I love this panel where you have Dan looking out, it’s straight out
of a romance comic, except he’s in what traditionally would be the woman’s role
of looking fraught right at the camera as someone walks away. And I feel like
that’s a purposeful reference here and it’s great.
Alex: Yeah.
Pete: Also,
it’s nice to see that the guy is looking that way, you know?
Alex: That’s
what Justin just said.
Pete: Yeah.
Alex: There’s
also the other two things that I’m going to point out about the scene and then
we’ll move on. You mentioned, Pete, the cut from the pirate on the Black Freighter
desperately eating a seagull to Dan Dreiberg desperately eating a chicken leg.
And I think the implication there is pretty clear, is that he’s been starving
for companionship for a woman to be in his life for a very long time and he’s
being fed for the first time. So that’s what we’re getting there. The other
thing, with the Rorschach of it all, there’s reflections throughout the issue
and pretty much every scene with Dan and Laurie has a mirror in it to the point
where there is one of the panels is completely them having a conversation in
the mirror and you don’t see them at all, which I think is kind of just
graphically fascinating.
Pete: Yeah.
Yeah.
Alex: So
there you go. Then we get the big centerpiece right in the middle of the issue
which is Adrian Veidt’s big fight. He is walking with his new assistant. He
walks downstairs and a man attacks him.
Pete: Wait.
Alex: Yes
Pete. What do you want to talk about that happened right before that?
Pete: I
want to talk about the … we skipped over the Rorschach kind of starting his
day and being at the diner. I think that’s kind of we kind of get to see how
Rorschach kind of wakes up, starts his day and it’s not a normal kind of thing.
But it is interesting how there is parallels, you know? Some people say oh, I
have to put on my face in the morning, I have to apply makeup or something like
that. Or you know, in Rorschach’s case, this mask is his face. And I thought
that was kind of an interesting …
Pete: You
know, we all kind of put on masks or whatever when we’re going out in public
and I think that’s kind of interesting.
Alex: Well
and that also ties into what happens at the end of the issue where the cops do
finally unmask Rorschach.
Pete: Yeah.
Alex: And
they realize they have no idea who he is because he’s just some guy. But that’s
also how Rorschach feels. He is some guy under the mask, but that doesn’t
matter. He is Rorschach through-and-through.
Pete: Yeah.
He says, “You’re taking my skin off,” I think.
Justin: Yeah.
Gross. Gross.
Alex: Did
that ever happen to you? Did a bully ever do that to you?
Pete: Take
my skin off? Yeah.
Alex: Take
your skin off. Yeah.
Pete: I’ve
been unskinned before, taking the face skin off.
Alex: All
right. I want to get back to the Adrian Veidt thing because he does have this
big fight with this dude in the lobby of his building. We get a layout that I
don’t think is like anything else that happens in the comic book. We get almost
a two-page spread of the fight with a double vertical panel in the middle where
you see Adrian Veidt whipping back this trophy I want to say and then whipping
it forward.
Justin: It’s
an ashtray.
Alex: Ashtray.
Yes. Thank you. And the guy eats a poison pill and dies. Now this is getting
into big spoilers if for whatever reason you haven’t read it before. But again,
it’s very fascinating reading all of the Adrian Veidt stuff, knowing what we
know and knowing what he’s going to head towards because clearly, he’s setting
this up to make it feel like oh, the conspiracy is coming after me, too, when in
fact, he is the one that is setting it up the entire time.
Justin: Yeah.
He orchestrated this …
Pete: Spoiler,
dude.
Justin: We
find out later. Yeah. But that’s why I think this panel construction is so
unique for this comic. We don’t see anywhere else this number of splash pages,
like you said, Alex, and these are really hero … every one’s a hero shot.
It’s him dodging a bullet, grabbing a weapon, wrecking the dude and then
pulling him out. It’s straight out of any other superhero comic and I just love
that in the end, we find out that these hero shots are really setting up the
villain. It’s the one person that gets the hero shot.
Pete: Yeah
and it’s really cool that you get the V in the background with the two big
panels back-to-back like that, you know? It’s really very powerful and reminds
me of the kind of X-Men stuff I would see later.
Alex: We’ve
talked about this a bit, as well, in the podcast just how well-constructed a
mystery this book is, this whole series is because they give you all the clues,
just like Mr. Snowman, you know? And there’s a panel in here which I love where
it’s Adrian Veidt looking directly at the camera towards the end and he’s
talking to the guy, but he’s looking directly at us and says, “I want to
know who’s behind this.” But it’s him who’s behind it, so he knows.
“Don’t bite down you scum. I want to know who sent you.” It’s great.
The whole thing. He’s telling you the entire time exactly that he did it and
they’re telling you.
Justin: But
it’s crazy. If this were a Law and Order episode or something, it would be how
did he know he had a poison pill in his tooth? He just knew? That’s crazy.
Alex: Yeah.
Justin: It’s
something … that’s a big, stupid thing to say because he wouldn’t have known
that.
Alex: Right.
But in this case, he’s a superhero, right? So they all trust him. They know
him. And right on the next page, the newspaper man is talking about oh who
would dare attack that lovely Adrian Veidt? Everybody thinks he’s absolutely
wonderful. So of course, him being the superhero, to your point, Justin, this
incredible hero, he would know about it absolutely. And then the one last
thing, just again in terms of him straight up telling us what’s going on,
there’s this whole thing where the assistant wants to make some action figures.
In his action figure line, they want to make enemies. And he’s like, “Well
who would you make them of?” And the last thing he says in the scene is,
“If they ask why, just tell them I don’t have any enemies.” And
that’s true. He is the enemy himself. He doesn’t have any enemies other than
him.
Justin: Yeah.
And I think the fact that he’s making action figures is a clear indication that
he is meant to be Todd McFarlane.
Alex: Again,
looking very far ahead, but interesting and correct.
Justin: [inaudible
00:33:33] forward looking.
Pete: Yeah,
just the part where he is reaching into this dude’s mouth and his hand is all
bloody and the cop is looking on in horror in the background. That really just
screams this guy is the villain.
Alex: Yeah.
Justin: Yeah.
Alex: It’s
great. So then we get another page of the Black Freighter and people reacting
to what went down with Adrian Veidt. We get another page of Rorschach and then
we go back to Dan and Laurie, again with the mirrors. We get a scene where he
walks her into her bedroom, stares at her longingly in the mirror for a moment.
Now we touched on this the last episode with the Doctor Manhattan-Laurie
relationship. How do you feel about the Dan Dreiberg-Laurie relationship
because he’s also crazy older than her?
Justin: Yeah.
Is he? I guess I don’t know that. He is, though, I guess. He must be, at least
to some degree.
Alex: Yeah.
I think he’s mid-to-late 40s and she’s 20-30 years younger than that, something
like that.
Justin: Wow.
I think it must be … it’s probably a 20-year age gap or something.
Alex: Yeah.
Something like that.
Justin: I
mean, the way they are in the issue, they feel like contemporaries, so I don’t
think we’re meant to … I guess in the same way, why is she so young? Because
that’s a weird thing and it keeps coming up. But the comic doesn’t emphasize
that in any way.
Pete: Yeah.
I didn’t … It’s not something that I was … I mean when you talk about it,
yeah. But it’s not something that they play with at all it doesn’t seem like [crosstalk
00:35:10].
Alex: Well,
I mean I think they do, but she says, “You’re like a big brother. You know
that?” Which I guess doesn’t necessarily imply a 20-year age difference,
but certainly she’s not thinking about him, it seems at this point as a potential
lover so much as somebody who is older, somebody who does take care of her. The
more that I read this book, again, at this point it feels like in a 2019 vein,
the women certainly get a short shrift in this book. The focus is much more on
the men and if there is one modern quibble that I think you can have with it,
it’s definitely that.
Justin: Yeah.
It’s written from a crazy male perspective. The women don’t really exist but in
relationship to the men. There’s no real … Her whole function here is to be
Doctor Manhattan’s wife who leaves him for this other guy. And that’s not good.
Pete: No.
Alex: No.
It’s not good. Also not good is what happens to the pirate of the Black
Freighter is he gets attacked by a shark. This is, I’ve got to tell you, the first
time I read Watchmen, I sort of skimmed the Black Freighter segments because it
was well what’s with all the pirates? I don’t get this at all. This is
ridiculous. But I definitely remember the shark part. There is specifically the
coloring that John Higgins does here with all the reds and the pink of the
shark and everything. Terrifying, absolutely terrifying.
Justin: Yeah.
Terrifying. Super intense. It really plays well. I agree with you. When you’re
younger, I feel like you’re not able to draw the literary juxtaposition that is
there quite as much, but it’s so cool reading it now.
Pete: Yeah.
And it’s also very interesting to kind of get across how crazy the pirate is or
whatever. We can see the coloring of the shark, but he also describes it in a
different color, which also just hammering down what he’s been through and how
not really … He’s aware of everything that’s happening, but also has a skewed
vision.
Alex: Do
you think, though, that this scene with the shark is all to set up the raw
shark joke that happens in two pages?
Justin: Yes.
No, but I think … I also think it’s about … I mean this is the parallel to
the story and it’s just another sort of advanced clue to what is actually
happening in this whole story.
Alex: Right
because then we get the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern style cops. Again, they’re
trying to figure out what’s going on with Eddie Blake. And in the middle of
that, they get a phone call telling them that somebody has seen raw shark and
they realize what it actually is. Did you realize when they said raw shark and
they realized what it is what they were talking about or did it take you a
minute [crosstalk 00:38:10]?
Justin: It
took me a minute. It’s one of those things that sort of makes you think. It
draws you out of the story. It sort of makes you look at the matrix of it for a
second because it’s wait, what are they talking about? And then it … And I
think that’s an interesting technique to do here. It sort of resets your brain
in a weird way. Because look, it’s one of the only panels, especially with
these cops, where there’s just the punchline of the joke and a huge reaction
from the cop in the foreground. It’s such an emphasized moment and I think it’s
meant to sort of get you keyed back into the mystery.
Pete: Yeah.
I don’t know, it just seems like this weird dad joke in the middle of a comic.
I don’t know.
Alex: It
made me laugh when I realized I also felt super dumb that I didn’t pick up on
it as it happened until I saw Rorschach on the next page. And I was like,
“Oh yeah. Okay. I get it. I get what we’re going for.” But then we
get into the next scene with Moloch that we talked about before which does
visually parallel almost exactly what happens towards the beginning of the
issue, except this time, as we come around Moloch, we find that he’s been shot
in the head, Rorschach has been set up and then we get this action sequence
which to the point you were making earlier Justin, Rorschach goes beyond
vigilante justice here to the point where I think he is cruel to these cops who
are trying to track him down. What’s your guys take on it?
Pete: Well
I would just like to say the coloring of Moloch being shot in the head is
really powerful and amazing.
Justin: Yeah.
Pete: And
it’s kind of spooky. The first time I read it, I was really grossed out.
Justin: I
wouldn’t say he’s cruel, it ends up being cruelty to these cops, but he’s just
desperate. He’s not trying to hurt them more than he needs to for pleasure. I
think he’s just like, “Oh fuck. I have to do everything I can to get
away.” Because he’s never been boxed in like this.
Pete: Yeah.
Backed against a wall.
Justin: And
his whole life is at stake. Yeah.
Pete: Yeah.
Alex: So
yeah. He does, though. He gets out. He jumps through a window. He sets people
on fire.
Pete: Yeah,
he does.
Alex: Ultimately
they catch him. They unmask him. And there’s one, again, I read this personally
as a joke similar to the raw shark thing. But the second-to-last panel after
he’s screaming, “No! My face! Give it back! Who the hell is he?” They
drag him off. He’s lost one shoe. His hat is hanging on the other side and the
dialogue is everything balances. When clearly, this panel in particular does
not at all. You have one shoe on, one shoe off. You have the hat in the upper
left corner.
Alex: Certainly
it parallels stuff that’s gone on in the beginning because we had the
newspaper, we had one shoe hitting the puddle at the beginning. We end with the
reflection of the pirate S sign. I don’t know, I just thought this was a funny
thing where you’ve had this whole mirror image issue and the second-to-last
panel is something that throws off that pattern in a certain way.
Justin: But
I think on the theme of the story, at the beginning of this issue, Rorschach is
walking in, super confident, cocky when he’s confronting Moloch. He plays a
weird trick on him as part of the mystery. And he steps in this puddle with
intention to go do that and in the second-to-last panel, he’s being dragged
back out of the house at his absolute lowest. So I think it balances out emotionally
for Rorschach, where he goes from the top, he’s in his element, he’s solving a
mystery, he’s making moves forward to absolutely back to the lowest point he
could possibly imagine.
Alex: I
think that’s fair. That makes sense. Let’s talk about the back matter, as well,
because there’s a whole history of pirate comics that goes on here, which I
thought was so neat. And it actually includes a lot of real writers and artists
and contemporaries of Alan Moore who were working at D.C. Comics. And for those
of you who didn’t read this or didn’t maybe listen to a previous episode of the
podcast, one of the things that’s going on in this world is because superheroes
existed.
Alex: Very
specifically, Marvel Comics totally failed and Marvel Comics totally failed
because their big hit was Fantastic Four #1. They made all of their money off
of superhero comics, so they never became a thing in this world versus D.C.
Comics which has historically, actually always been very adaptable in terms of
the times or at least more adaptable seemingly than Marvel. And here, what they
did was they had some hit pirate comics when their superhero line was starting
to fail and they followed that path down and pirate comics became the biggest
thing in the world. I thought that was great. Even more than the under-the-hood
stuff, I really loved this one. I thought it was fantastic.
Justin: Yeah.
That’s such a funny detail and I know we’ve talked about it before that pirate
comics are so successful in this world. It’s so weird and so it reminds me of,
what is it? The comic about eating, where …
Alex: Chew?
Justin: Chew,
where the chickens are revered.
Alex: Yeah.
Justin: Yeah.
That’s such a funny random detail of that world that doesn’t really play into
the action, at least at the beginning and so funny.
Alex: Yeah.
Another thing that I really like about these sections and again, I’ll cop to
the fact that I pretty much skipped over them the first time that I read
Watchmen is how good Alan Moore is at writing in different styles, which I
think is an incredibly different thing to do. Specifically, I find a lot of
times when people try to do the Watchmen thing of having back matter, it feels
like a comic book writer tried to do it. You know, my day job is writing news,
so certainly I focus on that and I get very picky about that. But when somebody
who is not a news writer writes a news article in a comic book, it always feels
super off. It does not feel like something anybody would actually write.
Alex: But
the under-the-hood sections feel like a dishy tell-all autobiography. This
section writing about the pirate comics really does feel like a super scholarly
look into the history of comics. Again, not that it’s a huge revelation that
Alan Moore is a good writer, but I’ve been very impressed to read those just in
terms of the different voices that he puts throughout them.
Justin: Yeah,
the specificities. Cool.
Pete: It
also reminds me since we also talk about other comics, it reminds me of
Hickman’s X-Men run where it’s you’re getting a lot more layers to what’s
happening and there’s actual just writing in between the art and real comic.
Alex: Do
you think he ripped off Hickman’s X-Men run?
Pete: Yeah.
I definitely think Alan Moore ripped off Hickman. Yeah. Yeah.
Justin: Alan
Moore just texted me and he said he did.
Alex: Oh
wow. I love how he always does exactly what we’re talking about even though
we’re not here. That’s why he’s my pink champagne buddy.
Justin: That’s
the weirdest thing is since we’re recording this separately over Skype, he is
Skyped into this call, he’s just not saying anything.
Alex: I
can see your face buddy.
Justin: That’s
just [crosstalk 00:45:32] busy.
Alex: I
can see your face.
Justin: He’s
taking … Yeah.
Alex: Oh,
I love that guy. If you would like to support our podcast
patreon.com/comicbookclub, also we do a live show every Tuesday night at 8:00
p.m. at the People’s Improv Theater Loft in New York, and I will chat with you
about Watchmen. A couple of different places socially you can check out this
podcast. Pete you remember what the Facebook page is?
Pete: Nope.
Slam.
Alex: Great.
It’s watchmanwatchpodcast on Facebook and Instagram. Justin, you want to plug
that Twitter?
Justin: Yes.
It is … our Twitter is comicbooklive and the Watchmen one is watchmenwatch1,
is that right?
Pete: Yeah.
I know there’s a 1 in there.
Alex: There
is a 1 in there. Also, we didn’t do this on the first couple episodes, did want
to give a shout out to Jeff Solomon who wrote the theme music for the show.
Justin: Yeah.
So good.
Alex: You
can check him out on Instagram at megajerf. That’s his Instagram address. It’s
mostly pictures of beautiful food and cocktails he made, but he writes good
music, as well. So thank you, Jeff, for doing that.
Pete: Thanks
Jeff.
Alex: Check
us out at comicbooklive.com for this podcast and more. Our podcast is now live
everywhere so please be sure to subscribe to the specific podcast feed, iTunes,
Android, Spotify, Stitcher, app of your choice. Particularly on iTunes, if you
wouldn’t mind going over and rating it and leaving us a comment, that would be
much appreciated. And remember, we taped this podcast 35 minutes ago.
Justin: Bye
Alan. Oh you’ll be here next … He just texted me. He’ll definitely be here
next week and he means it.
The post Watchmen Watch: Issue #5, “Fearful Symmetry” appeared first on Comic Book Club.
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What do you see in the fifth issue of Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons’ Watchmen, “Fearful Symmetry”? The focus turns to Rorschach, as he gets closer to discovering the truth about Eddie Blake’s murder — and the police get closer to him. Plus, we explore Alan Moore’s greatest Dad jokes.
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The theme music for Watchmen Watch was written and performed by Jeff Solomon.
Plus, here’s a transcript of the episode for you to read through as you listen:
Alex: Welcome
to Watchmen Watch, a podcast about Watchmen, where we talk about Watchmen the
comic, we talk about Watchmen the TV show, we talk about Watchmen the movie, we
talk about Watchmen the bread, we talk about Watchmen the breakfast cereal, Watchmen
the shoes, Watchmen the building, Watchmen my cousin, who is named Watchmen
Zalben. We talk about all of this and so much more on this podcast. I am Alex.
Justin: I’m
Justin.
Pete: I
am Pete. And it’s too much Alex, it’s too much.
Alex: It’s
never enough.
Pete: Too
much watching.
Alex: It’s
never enough. You watch things with your eyes, it’s an unlimited amount of
things you can watch. So that’s what’s exciting about it. Justin-
Pete: I
watch things with my heart.
Justin: Nice.
Me too, buddy.
Alex: I
couldn’t help but notice, our fourth co-host, he’s not here. What’s going on?
You got any news on that?
Justin: Ah
yes, I was hoping it wouldn’t come up, but it does, because he’s one of four.
He just texted me, Alan Moore, our fourth co-host, the writer of Watchmen, very
famous. He really has planned on being here, but he’s finished taking his name
off stuff and now he’s taking my name off stuff.
Alex: What?
Pete: Oh
man.
Justin: He’s
erasing, I won’t have an identity. He took my name off my birth certificate.
Alex: Oh
that’s crazy. I was going to say, you just released that erotic novella.
Justin: Yeah.
Thank you for pronouncing it correctly. As I said, lightly Italian. It is a
novella.
Alex: You
had a really beautiful reception the other day. Alan Moore was there. We got a
little tipsy on some pink sparkling champagne bubbles, some pink bubbles as he
likes to call them.
Justin: Yes.
My drink of choice, yep.
Alex: Yeah.
But I’m sad he’s not here. I was very excited to talk about this issue. We’re
going to be talking about issue five of Watchmen, Fearful Symmetry. Pete, I
know you’re clapping because you love fear, right?
Pete: No.
This was one of my favorite issues.
Justin: He
loves symmetry. Pete’s a symmetry dude. Real chasing butterflies type guy.
Alex: Well
this is interesting. This is something that’s come up that we’ve talked about a
little bit when we first launched the podcast on our Patreon Slack. People were
saying, “Eww, I wonder what’s going to happen when Pete gets the issue
about Rorschach because the discussion which I thought was very well-said with
the Patreon members, a bunch of people were talking about how Rorschach as a
teenager or potentially when you first read Watchmen when you’re sort of coming
of age, you potentially identify with Rorschach. You’re like, “Oh, I’m
this other. I’m this nerd who’s reading comic books.”
Alex: But
as you get older and particularly now, you understand that Rorschach is a bit
of a conspiracy nut and that’s saying it very lightly. And that’s something
that they’re playing off of. We talked about this in the preview episode on the
HBO show. They’re blowing it out there, having seemingly a bunch of people
called the Seventh Cavalry who completely misunderstood the writings of
Rorschach and are using him to spur on an alt-right-esque movement.
Alex: Now
this is the issue, last issue, focused almost completely on Doctor Manhattan,
his origin, what was going on in his head.
Justin: Yeah.
It was a real thinking man’s issue.
Alex: It
was. This issue, it’s not completely Rorschach, but it’s certainly the
Rorschach issue. Is that why you were excited, Pete? And in total, given that
you do love Rorschach that much, but we’ve been having these discussions in the
podcast, did you view this issue any differently?
Pete: No.
I still very much love Rorschach, think he’s a solid dude. I … It’s funny
because …
Justin: Solid
dude. He’s [crosstalk 00:03:43] my bachelor party.
Alex: Do
you know what? I would expect the most Rorschach if he saw you, give you a
sweet fist bump.
Pete: Yeah.
Yeah. I tell you what, though, it’s funny because now I relate the dude reading
the comic next to the newsstand.
Justin: Why
is that, because you read comics?
Pete: Because
I read comics and I swear the same way he does. So yeah, I still think Rorschach
is great. I don’t know, I love how grimy he is, how real and raw he is, his
problem with authority. I think he’s a solid character and I think he’s a lot
of fun. I definitely don’t agree with a lot of his [crosstalk 00:04:29].
Justin: I
would argue that he is not. He’s not fun.
Pete: What’s
that?
Justin: He’s
not fun. I would argue he’s not fun.
Pete: Oh
weird.
Justin: He’s
super negative. He has a horrible world view.
Pete: But
what about that whole thing about look behind you? That was fun. What about
shoving that dude in the fridge? That was fun.
Justin: Well,
he’s throwing around this poor, broken-down man who’s dying anyway and he’s one
of the few people that Rorschach encounters who is truly below him and I think
he takes pleasure in inflicting pain on him which is something not super
heroic.
Pete: Right.
Justin: And
I just think Rorschach is conspiracy theorist sort of head space and the fact
that he doubts everything happens to be right in this case and he’s the only
one that sniffs out the mystery here. But think of any other day in his life
before this when he was like, “Oh, look at this diner flyer,” from
the …
Pete: Yeah.
But it’s all leading up to this day, though. This is when he’s the hero.
Justin: But
there’s so many days that he was just shaking down some random strangers and
them for something that wasn’t there.
Pete: That’s
just him sacrificing himself for the moment.
Justin: And
also, all the people he beats up because he thinks they ate at the same diner where
there was a crime.
Pete: Right.
Right. That makes sense. Well I just want to say, though, I’m not saying that I
agree with how he’s doing things, just someone who’s reading a comic, I think
he’s a fun character and I’m super glad that he’s a part of this world. I love
how he fits into all of this.
Alex: Wait.
Sorry. Are you talking about the kid sitting next to the newsstand or
Rorschach?
Justin: Rorschach.
Pete: Well
I mean it’s a great character in the story.
Justin: Right.
Pete: Alex’s
point, it’s just so interesting the way you read it when you’re a kid and it’s
cool to be … and this was also when we were reading this was probably in the
mid-to-late ’90s/early 2000s, where badass comics were all about who is this
mysterious badass who dwells in darkness? All that shit. And he seemed just
cool and now you see all the stuff that sticks out. It’s whoa! His world view
is actually the bad.
Alex: Well
on a thematic bent, just to take a step back from this a bit and we were
talking about this quite a bit during the Doctor Manhattan podcast, but I think
it’s also very much applicable here. Among the other themes that they’re
dealing with very heavily in this comic, on the character bent, it’s a lot
about can you change?
Justin: Yeah.
Alex: And
more than can you change, it’s can you change from whatever your formative
point was? That’s something that Doctor Manhattan is dealing with. He was
remade when he was blasted apart. Is he Jon Osterman? Is he Doctor Manhattan?
What is he now? Is he something that exists simultaneously in that moment when
he was destroyed, as well as the past and present and future? And Rorschach …
Pete: Or
is he the pirate and you know, on that raft?
Justin: That’s
the one thing I don’t think he is.
Alex: No.
No. He’s not. Again, I was talking about Doctor Manhattan. But Rorschach is …
very good, jumping all over the place, Pete. Rorschach in a parallel, he is the
character that cannot move on from the heyday of being a vigilante. The very
rare glimpses we get of him during his partnership with Nite Owl, that’s when
it seems like he was probably at his best, right?
Justin: Yeah.
Alex: He
was at his cleanest. He was probably not happy, but he was certainly at his
happiest. And he is the person that is holding onto that. He’s the person
that’s resisted the Keene Act, resisted the future and ultimately to jump ahead
to the end of the story, that’s his undoing. He can’t change. He can’t move
forward with the times, even though Adrian Veidt is the person who is adapting
to the times and not only adapting to them, but trying to force them forward in
a certain way. So I think that something that plays really heavily here is …
Justin: I
mean it checks out. I think that’s why Rorschach is such a perfect name and
identity for him. The world around him is changing. He does not and so the
interpretation of his actions is different. Just like the Rorschach Test,
depending on who’s looking at it …
Alex: Yeah,
exactly.
Justin: They’re
going to see whatever they see in it. And I also think that plays into how we
read this when we were younger and we’re reading it now and we have a totally
different interpretation because we’ve changed. This character has not changed.
The Rorschach blot is exactly what it was when Alan Moore wrote this and Dave
Gibbons drew it and now we have a totally different understanding of him. And
that’s amazing to have that level of synergy. So cool.
Pete: It
also says something about the writing, how it’s the same. You change around it.
You get different things from it, you know? It’s pretty awesome.
Alex: The
other thing that I’d say, though, is that Watchmen was so influential, the
comics, that as you were pointing out, Justin, we … I know I didn’t read
Watchmen when it came out in 1986. I probably read it 10 years later after
there had been a full decade of Watchmen influencing comics and then there was
a reaction to that reaction and a reaction to that reaction and so on and so
forth.
Alex: So
whereas Watchmen was coming out and redefining things as it was happening, this
also, we’ve seen, we’ve grown up reading comics for the past couple of decades
that have influenced our thinking about comics. We’ve seen comics … You know,
just to get into the specific structure of this issue, I thought it was funny
because we were reading this one because there’s another comic book that we
read recently that we reviewed that was very similar structurally.
Alex: So
this is structured like a Rorschach blot. It’s essentially a palindrome. It
starts at the beginning, meets in the middle and then parallels towards the
end. There’s a book called Ice Cream Man that came out recently that did that,
as well. It was more specifically a palindrome where you could read it
backwards and forwards and change the story, depending on how you looked at it,
which clearly is based on this issue. So even now, even decades later, there
are still comic books that are adapting and using the influence of Watchmen,
which makes a lot of sense.
Alex: Should
we jump into the issue? Should we walk through it?
Justin: Yeah.
Let’s walk through it. Do you wish that there were more characters named after
psychological evaluation tests?
Alex: Absolutely.
Justin: Like
role play would be a fun … Okay you, I’m the hero, but now I’m going to be
the villain, you be the hero and let’s see how this goes.
Alex: Yeah.
There was that comic book that came out that was called Sometimes Just A Cigar
Man.
Justin: Oh
yes, yes.
Alex: That
was kind of interesting. Of course, Oedipus, the original superhero.
Justin: Oh
yeah, yeah. Cool.
Alex: So
here, I’ll start walking us through the issue. So we have this first page,
which again is paralleled in the final page, as well, where we see some
footsteps. One of the great things about this issue in particular, we’ve talked
certainly about Alan Moore and we’ve talked about Dave Gibbons, we’ve only
touched on John Higgins’ coloring a little bit in various issues. It’s so
prominent here because almost every panel changes the coloring. There’s almost
a light flashing back and forth, sort of rolling back and forth here.
Alex: And
we get that in particular, it sets that up right in the first page as somebody,
it turns out it’s Rorschach, walks up this dirty stairway on his way to find
Moloch, who he knows, knows more about whatever conspiracy is going on.
Alex: And
then to Pete’s point, I sort of get what Pete’s saying because you do have a
sense of the extreme vigilante, the punisher and whatnot, him doing things
where he … Moloch slowly walks through his house and then eventually finds a
note in the refrigerator with a Rorschach blot that says behind you. And then
he turns around and Rorschach is there and Rorschach pushes him into the
fridge. What do you think, Justin? You seem a little conflicted about this.
Moves like this, are they cool to you or do they feel dangerous?
Justin: It
was cool. It’s a cool move. It’s a cool storytelling thing, but putting myself
in the head of Rorschach, why do this to this poor … He’s just scaring. Maybe
I just have more sympathy for Moloch now. He didn’t need to … This is like
playing a prank on this poor man who he knows he’s dying, he knows he’s
terrified. It’s just unnecessary. And then you’re just going to hassle him
anyway.
Pete: Yeah.
But just to back up the truck a little bit, the coloring … Just it’s one of
these things where it’s art and stuff like this that makes it so easy to go
back to this book, because the paneling, because the coloring is so awesome. It
doesn’t get tired to look at it and to kind of go back and re-read it again.
There is so much cool stuff going on in this book that it’s just, you know, you
kind of, as we mentioned, get different stuff.
Pete: But
yeah. Sure. But he doesn’t know what’s going on with Moloch. He thinks that
Moloch is maybe holding back information. So regardless of his health,
regardless of that stuff, he wants information and he feels he’s in the right
and getting it this kind of gruff, you know, overly masculine way.
Justin: I
mean I take that point. I guess Moloch could be involved somehow.
Pete: Right.
Justin: But
do you think Rorschach thinks that he is here?
Pete: Well
he definitely does because he goes to his place to get info from him and in his
mind, it’s he knows what’s going on, he’s on the list, he’s got to be in the
loop.
Alex: I
do think Moloch, not Moloch, excuse me, Rorschach is very much grasping at
straws. This is one of the flaws with him, right, is that he is eventually
right. He does manage to stumble on the right answers, but he’s going for
everything. There was an issue back where he looked at Laurie and Dan being
together and he was like, “Well, well, well. They’re probably cheating on
Doctor Manhattan. Maybe they planned the whole thing. Maybe it’s Laurie. I’m
going to go after her.” Which is just as crazy as any other possibility.
It just turns out he stuffs Moloch in a fridge and eventually discovers the
right answer and gets on the right track with things.
Alex: To
your point, Justin, I think part of it is that we’ve already … Now we’re five
issues in, right? These superheroes are not good people. They haven’t had a
good relationship with the world. They haven’t done a good thing. So if it was
another comic book or like, “Fuck yeah, Rorschach. Yeah. Go for it
Rorschach. Get him. Get that fucker Moloch the Mystic.” I get it, but we
know he’s a sick dude with cancer who maybe did some not so nice things in the
past, but ultimately, he’s going to die very soon. So it’s not deserved what’s
happening to him from Rorschach.
Justin: And
at the end of this issue, he goes back to hassle Moloch again and that’s where
he gets caught. So he does pay a price for his cruelty.
Pete: Well,
no, no, no.
Justin: And
at the end of his panel …
Pete: Hold
on. Hold on a second. Hold on a second. First off, when he’s got the fridge
closed, there’s that whole panel where Rorschach is thinking and then he
realizes oh, I’m wrong. I’m going to let him out of the fridge. And the only
reason he goes back to his place is not to beat information out of him, it’s
because he got a note in the trashcan that says, “Meet me at 11:30. I have
news.” So he doesn’t go back to harass him. He gets set up.
Alex: I
think you’re wrong about that and I think you’re wrong on both counts. First of
all, with the refrigerator thing, he’s stuffing Moloch in the refrigerator and
Moloch says, “Oh no, no, no. Oh God, don’t. Rorschach please, it wasn’t
me. I don’t know. I don’t know who it was.” He closed him in the
refrigerator and he doesn’t think better of it. He realizes okay, I think
Moloch is kind of telling me the truth now, so I’ll go let him out of this
refrigerator.
Pete: Yeah,
he doesn’t know.
Alex: He
doesn’t feel bad about it.
Pete: No.
He realizes, oh, he doesn’t know anything and he lets him out.
Alex: I
guess. But I don’t know. Rorschach’s not a good guy here. I’m sorry.
Justin: And
he hasn’t slept in many days, so he’s not thinking straight.
Pete: Right.
Alex: Right.
Have you ever been stuffed in a fridge Pete?
Pete: Huh.
I’m thinking.
Alex: What’s
the weirdest place you’ve ever been stuffed Pete?
Pete: In
a locker. I had my head shoved in the toilet for a swirley.
Alex: Oh
jeez. Yikes. Wait, were you really stuffed in a locker?
Pete: Yeah
dude.
Alex: By
a bully.
Pete: Yeah.
Alex: Oh
man.
Pete: Football
players.
Alex: Oh
wow. I had to do that to myself.
Justin: Oh,
you didn’t even have a bully?
Alex: No.
That’s not a joke.
Justin: Back
in my day, we didn’t have bullies. Last week of school [crosstalk 00:17:26].
Alex: I
was a nerd. I had never been stuffed in a locker, so I stuffed myself in a
locker just to get the experience.
Justin: Wow,
nice. Got your cred.
Alex: Yeah,
I did.
Pete: Did
you close it all the way and did someone have to let you out?
Alex: Yeah.
I closed it all the way and my friend was waiting out there and I said,
“Okay, you can let me out now.” And then he did.
Pete: Okay.
Justin: Did
you give yourself a wedgie? Were you playing out your own father issues on
yourself?
Alex: Listen.
I don’t want to get into it, but yes.
Justin: Did
you comb your hair back?
Alex: Wait.
Hold on Justin. I see what you’re doing. Where’s the weirdest place you’ve been
stuffed?
Justin: Oh,
interesting. I guess I haven’t really been stuffed in a lot of places. I was in
a cave once for a long time.
Alex: For
a long time?
Justin: Well
I was in there. I was like, “I don’t want to leave.”
Alex: Oh
okay. You went on a cave tour?
Justin: Oh.
I was in a culvert underneath a railroad tracks and there was a beaver in there
with us and that was a place I didn’t want to be.
Alex: Were
you in a cartoon at the time or what was going on?
Justin: This
was just out … My countrified cred which clashes my nerd cred. There was a
beaver dam we had to break up because the water in the lake was getting too
high, so we had to go down and break up the beaver dam. And part of doing that,
we crawled into this culvert because it was dammed up and the beaver happened
to be there and he was in the water like the monster in Star Wars in A New Hope
that’s after them in the trash compacter.
Pete: Yeah.
In the trash compacter, right?
Justin: Yeah.
Pete: That’s
called Dianoga. Anyway, go on.
Alex: Did
you try shooting the beaver with your laser gun?
Justin: Alex,
get back in your locker for saying that.
Alex: All
right. Yeah. Sorry about that guys.
Justin: You
didn’t need to say that. Get in your locker. And that’s where my third brother
was killed by that beaver that day.
Alex: Oh
Jesus.
Pete: Oh
man.
Justin: Wow,
the third Tyler brother.
Alex: They
rumored that for so long in the comics and then finally they revealed the third
Tyler brother. That was huge.
Justin: Yeah.
We called him Jason X.
Pete: Oh
dude. You’re way to casual.
Alex: Let’s
get to Rorschach just for a second. So as he’s walking out of Moloch’s place,
we get a glimpse again of the sign that’s outside there which is a skull and
crossbones made out of an R. To the point that Pete made earlier, do you think,
at least in this issue or is it all of the issues, that Rorschach is the pirate
in Tales of the Black Freighter? Could be?
Justin: Interesting.
Yes. I mean, this issue has the most Black Freighter stuff up to this point, as
well. And he is the one who’s life is at the ultimate low point, where he’s
lashing together pieces of information like the dead bodies of the people
around him. I would argue that’s what his world view is, that nothing is
worthwhile. He’s just trying to get by and he’s willing to do anything no
matter how horrifying to keep moving.
Alex: Well
and he’s also the person who is … He’s the only one that realizes there’s
some sort of doom coming, unlike the pirate in Tales of the Black Freighter who
knows specifically it’s the Black Freighter that’s coming for everybody, that’s
coming for his family. Rorschach doesn’t know what it is yet. He just knows
something bad is going to happen and he’s trying to go as fast as he can to
stop it while everybody else, Dan, Laurie, even Doctor Manhattan are kind of
just going about their lives and doing their own things. So I think that point
is well-made, Pete. Then we …
Pete: Ah-hah.
Alex: Yeah.
Then we get a scene with the two cops who are such interesting characters to
me.
Pete: Really?
Alex: Well
they’re interesting because there’s all these other bigger than life, lifelike
characters which are the superheroes, the Minute Men and the Crime Busters and
everybody else. And then you just have these two cops on the beat who keep
coming in every once in a while sort of like a Rosencrantz and Guildenstern
figure. And it’s fun to see them. I don’t remember how many more times they
turn up, but it was surprising to me to see them again in this issue.
Pete: What?
Alex: What?
Pete: All
right. Well before I unpack that, I just want to talk about I love how, you
know, we kind of have Rorschach’s journal talking about a flash of
enlightenment and then you kind of, the next panel is Buddha on the back of a
door, you know, with blood. I think that’s pretty awesome.
Justin: You
love a little Buddha?
Alex: You
love a little Buddha?
Pete: Well
I love the enlightenment cut-to. I think that’s a fun thing.
Alex: Well
a couple of things about it. I mean first of all, it has the same blood splash
as what’s going on on Eddie Blake’s smiley button, so it’s definitely a bit
defaced in that way. It’s exactly the same way. And then also, it’s something
that’s perfectly even and parallel like the Rorschach blot, like the sign outside
Moloch the Mystic. So there’s that …
Pete: Also
like Doctor Manhattan’s world he’s building on Mars.
Alex: No,
I don’t think so. I mean, that’s a little uneven in terms of his watch cogs and
stuff, right? He’s just trying to create order, but Rorschach has the same
thing backwards and forwards and I think that’s what’s going on.
Pete: I
don’t know why you’re fighting me on this.
Alex: Well,
we also get … we also get in the first half of the issue, we get this
triangle with the Buddha and in the second half of the issue, we get the
triangle with the, oh gosh what do you call them? Gay … not gay/lesbians.
Whatever they’re called in this world. It’s something slightly different than
what it actually should be. We’ll find it when we get to it.
Pete: Yeah.
I’m just saying, though, when Doctor Manhattan is floating on Mars, all these
triangles start appearing in the ground and then keep growing up.
Alex: Yeah.
Those are the watch cogs.
Pete: Right.
But I’m saying they look like triangles, which is what Buddha is in [crosstalk
00:23:23].
Alex: They’re
wheels. They’re circles Pete.
Justin: We
see a lot of triangles just in [inaudible 00:23:27].
Pete: Dude.
You’re killing me man. The page here, there’s just literally triangles on it
where Doctor Manhattan is … I don’t know why you’re fighting that [crosstalk
00:23:36].
Justin: If
you go to the next page, there’s a triangle. Think about that.
Alex: Yeah.
If you fold over the corner of the page, there’s a triangle.
Pete: Okay.
Cool.
Justin: Pete’s
is a triangle.
Alex: All
I’m saying is some people see triangles, some people see circles. Let’s just
call them shapes, you know?
Pete: All
right. Let’s talk about the cops that you love so much.
Alex: I
do like those cops. But I think we could actually move on. We talked about the
Black Freighter a little bit. There’s a scene …
Pete: Wait.
Why do you like the cops? They don’t seem very good at their job or aware of
anything.
Alex: I
like them because I am curious to see more of them and how they play into the
narrative.
Pete: Okay.
Alex: That’s
all. I’m [crosstalk 00:24:20].
Justin: You
may feel like they’re just another example of sort of the bleakness of the
everyday world. We get these two scenes back-to-back with the cops who sort of
don’t know what they’re doing and just talking about how the world is all
fucked. And then the next scene is the kid reading the comic book or I guess
the man reading the comic book and the newspaper dealer. And they’re talking
about the same thing, but they’re sort of a little more scared, as opposed to
being resigned to their fate.
Pete: Yeah.
Now I just want to also say we talked about reading it younger and then reading
it now. When I was a kid, I definitely didn’t pick up on how meta this was,
having a kid read the comic while I’m reading the comic, you know?
Alex: Do
you think, it would have been kind of interesting if they had the pirate in the
Black Freighter tale also reading a comic, maybe a comic about Pete LePage?
Justin: Oh,
that’s good.
Pete: I
think I would have picked up on that when I was younger.
Justin: Maybe
they’ll do that in the show.
Alex: Personalized
shows. That’s the next iteration. After that, we get a quick scene with Dan and
Laurie as their relationship starts to build a little bit in this issue. Laurie
has been kicked out of the place she was living. She’s lost all of her money.
She doesn’t necessarily want to look for a handout, but Dan offers, says,
“Hey, you can stay at my place. That’s absolutely fine.” And there’s
this great panel. We’ve talked a lot about the juxtaposition in this comic
book. But this great panel at the end where they’ve finished their meal,
they’re walking away and it says, “We’re both leftovers.”
Justin: Yeah.
Pete: Yeah.
Alex: Now
the other thing …
Justin: HBO’s
The Leftovers.
Alex: HBO’s
The Leftovers. It’s a huge hint going on there.
Justin: Synergy.
Alex: He
also says we’re lost.
Justin: Yeah.
Alex: And
#DamonLindelof.
Justin: It’s
crazy they said hashtag back then because that was sort of not very popular.
Maybe they …
Pete: Now
Justin …
Justin: Yes.
Pete: When
you were … it was just you and the beaver in that, you know, little tunnel
thing …
Justin: Culvert.
Pete: Did
you see … Oh, sorry. We see a, you know, a guy stranded in a raft and kind of
pulls a pigeon out of the air and eats it and then it cuts to, you know, Nite
Owl there eating, kind of holding it the same way. Were you worried it would
come down to you and the beaver and you would have to eat the beaver?
Justin: Yeah.
I’d eat the beaver and I’d make a little hat out of it. No, it was just, I
didn’t like when the beaver was bumping into my leg with it’s sharp teeth.
Pete: Ouch.
That’s terrifying.
Justin: I’m
not … You know, a beaver is not a scary animal, but put yourself in a tube where
you can’t really see the exit, it’s very far away, it gets scary.
Alex: I
want to say something else about …
Justin: One
quick thing.
Alex: Yeah,
please.
Justin: Before
we move on, I love this panel where you have Dan looking out, it’s straight out
of a romance comic, except he’s in what traditionally would be the woman’s role
of looking fraught right at the camera as someone walks away. And I feel like
that’s a purposeful reference here and it’s great.
Alex: Yeah.
Pete: Also,
it’s nice to see that the guy is looking that way, you know?
Alex: That’s
what Justin just said.
Pete: Yeah.
Alex: There’s
also the other two things that I’m going to point out about the scene and then
we’ll move on. You mentioned, Pete, the cut from the pirate on the Black Freighter
desperately eating a seagull to Dan Dreiberg desperately eating a chicken leg.
And I think the implication there is pretty clear, is that he’s been starving
for companionship for a woman to be in his life for a very long time and he’s
being fed for the first time. So that’s what we’re getting there. The other
thing, with the Rorschach of it all, there’s reflections throughout the issue
and pretty much every scene with Dan and Laurie has a mirror in it to the point
where there is one of the panels is completely them having a conversation in
the mirror and you don’t see them at all, which I think is kind of just
graphically fascinating.
Pete: Yeah.
Yeah.
Alex: So
there you go. Then we get the big centerpiece right in the middle of the issue
which is Adrian Veidt’s big fight. He is walking with his new assistant. He
walks downstairs and a man attacks him.
Pete: Wait.
Alex: Yes
Pete. What do you want to talk about that happened right before that?
Pete: I
want to talk about the … we skipped over the Rorschach kind of starting his
day and being at the diner. I think that’s kind of we kind of get to see how
Rorschach kind of wakes up, starts his day and it’s not a normal kind of thing.
But it is interesting how there is parallels, you know? Some people say oh, I
have to put on my face in the morning, I have to apply makeup or something like
that. Or you know, in Rorschach’s case, this mask is his face. And I thought
that was kind of an interesting …
Pete: You
know, we all kind of put on masks or whatever when we’re going out in public
and I think that’s kind of interesting.
Alex: Well
and that also ties into what happens at the end of the issue where the cops do
finally unmask Rorschach.
Pete: Yeah.
Alex: And
they realize they have no idea who he is because he’s just some guy. But that’s
also how Rorschach feels. He is some guy under the mask, but that doesn’t
matter. He is Rorschach through-and-through.
Pete: Yeah.
He says, “You’re taking my skin off,” I think.
Justin: Yeah.
Gross. Gross.
Alex: Did
that ever happen to you? Did a bully ever do that to you?
Pete: Take
my skin off? Yeah.
Alex: Take
your skin off. Yeah.
Pete: I’ve
been unskinned before, taking the face skin off.
Alex: All
right. I want to get back to the Adrian Veidt thing because he does have this
big fight with this dude in the lobby of his building. We get a layout that I
don’t think is like anything else that happens in the comic book. We get almost
a two-page spread of the fight with a double vertical panel in the middle where
you see Adrian Veidt whipping back this trophy I want to say and then whipping
it forward.
Justin: It’s
an ashtray.
Alex: Ashtray.
Yes. Thank you. And the guy eats a poison pill and dies. Now this is getting
into big spoilers if for whatever reason you haven’t read it before. But again,
it’s very fascinating reading all of the Adrian Veidt stuff, knowing what we
know and knowing what he’s going to head towards because clearly, he’s setting
this up to make it feel like oh, the conspiracy is coming after me, too, when in
fact, he is the one that is setting it up the entire time.
Justin: Yeah.
He orchestrated this …
Pete: Spoiler,
dude.
Justin: We
find out later. Yeah. But that’s why I think this panel construction is so
unique for this comic. We don’t see anywhere else this number of splash pages,
like you said, Alex, and these are really hero … every one’s a hero shot.
It’s him dodging a bullet, grabbing a weapon, wrecking the dude and then
pulling him out. It’s straight out of any other superhero comic and I just love
that in the end, we find out that these hero shots are really setting up the
villain. It’s the one person that gets the hero shot.
Pete: Yeah
and it’s really cool that you get the V in the background with the two big
panels back-to-back like that, you know? It’s really very powerful and reminds
me of the kind of X-Men stuff I would see later.
Alex: We’ve
talked about this a bit, as well, in the podcast just how well-constructed a
mystery this book is, this whole series is because they give you all the clues,
just like Mr. Snowman, you know? And there’s a panel in here which I love where
it’s Adrian Veidt looking directly at the camera towards the end and he’s
talking to the guy, but he’s looking directly at us and says, “I want to
know who’s behind this.” But it’s him who’s behind it, so he knows.
“Don’t bite down you scum. I want to know who sent you.” It’s great.
The whole thing. He’s telling you the entire time exactly that he did it and
they’re telling you.
Justin: But
it’s crazy. If this were a Law and Order episode or something, it would be how
did he know he had a poison pill in his tooth? He just knew? That’s crazy.
Alex: Yeah.
Justin: It’s
something … that’s a big, stupid thing to say because he wouldn’t have known
that.
Alex: Right.
But in this case, he’s a superhero, right? So they all trust him. They know
him. And right on the next page, the newspaper man is talking about oh who
would dare attack that lovely Adrian Veidt? Everybody thinks he’s absolutely
wonderful. So of course, him being the superhero, to your point, Justin, this
incredible hero, he would know about it absolutely. And then the one last
thing, just again in terms of him straight up telling us what’s going on,
there’s this whole thing where the assistant wants to make some action figures.
In his action figure line, they want to make enemies. And he’s like, “Well
who would you make them of?” And the last thing he says in the scene is,
“If they ask why, just tell them I don’t have any enemies.” And
that’s true. He is the enemy himself. He doesn’t have any enemies other than
him.
Justin: Yeah.
And I think the fact that he’s making action figures is a clear indication that
he is meant to be Todd McFarlane.
Alex: Again,
looking very far ahead, but interesting and correct.
Justin: [inaudible
00:33:33] forward looking.
Pete: Yeah,
just the part where he is reaching into this dude’s mouth and his hand is all
bloody and the cop is looking on in horror in the background. That really just
screams this guy is the villain.
Alex: Yeah.
Justin: Yeah.
Alex: It’s
great. So then we get another page of the Black Freighter and people reacting
to what went down with Adrian Veidt. We get another page of Rorschach and then
we go back to Dan and Laurie, again with the mirrors. We get a scene where he
walks her into her bedroom, stares at her longingly in the mirror for a moment.
Now we touched on this the last episode with the Doctor Manhattan-Laurie
relationship. How do you feel about the Dan Dreiberg-Laurie relationship
because he’s also crazy older than her?
Justin: Yeah.
Is he? I guess I don’t know that. He is, though, I guess. He must be, at least
to some degree.
Alex: Yeah.
I think he’s mid-to-late 40s and she’s 20-30 years younger than that, something
like that.
Justin: Wow.
I think it must be … it’s probably a 20-year age gap or something.
Alex: Yeah.
Something like that.
Justin: I
mean, the way they are in the issue, they feel like contemporaries, so I don’t
think we’re meant to … I guess in the same way, why is she so young? Because
that’s a weird thing and it keeps coming up. But the comic doesn’t emphasize
that in any way.
Pete: Yeah.
I didn’t … It’s not something that I was … I mean when you talk about it,
yeah. But it’s not something that they play with at all it doesn’t seem like [crosstalk
00:35:10].
Alex: Well,
I mean I think they do, but she says, “You’re like a big brother. You know
that?” Which I guess doesn’t necessarily imply a 20-year age difference,
but certainly she’s not thinking about him, it seems at this point as a potential
lover so much as somebody who is older, somebody who does take care of her. The
more that I read this book, again, at this point it feels like in a 2019 vein,
the women certainly get a short shrift in this book. The focus is much more on
the men and if there is one modern quibble that I think you can have with it,
it’s definitely that.
Justin: Yeah.
It’s written from a crazy male perspective. The women don’t really exist but in
relationship to the men. There’s no real … Her whole function here is to be
Doctor Manhattan’s wife who leaves him for this other guy. And that’s not good.
Pete: No.
Alex: No.
It’s not good. Also not good is what happens to the pirate of the Black
Freighter is he gets attacked by a shark. This is, I’ve got to tell you, the first
time I read Watchmen, I sort of skimmed the Black Freighter segments because it
was well what’s with all the pirates? I don’t get this at all. This is
ridiculous. But I definitely remember the shark part. There is specifically the
coloring that John Higgins does here with all the reds and the pink of the
shark and everything. Terrifying, absolutely terrifying.
Justin: Yeah.
Terrifying. Super intense. It really plays well. I agree with you. When you’re
younger, I feel like you’re not able to draw the literary juxtaposition that is
there quite as much, but it’s so cool reading it now.
Pete: Yeah.
And it’s also very interesting to kind of get across how crazy the pirate is or
whatever. We can see the coloring of the shark, but he also describes it in a
different color, which also just hammering down what he’s been through and how
not really … He’s aware of everything that’s happening, but also has a skewed
vision.
Alex: Do
you think, though, that this scene with the shark is all to set up the raw
shark joke that happens in two pages?
Justin: Yes.
No, but I think … I also think it’s about … I mean this is the parallel to
the story and it’s just another sort of advanced clue to what is actually
happening in this whole story.
Alex: Right
because then we get the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern style cops. Again, they’re
trying to figure out what’s going on with Eddie Blake. And in the middle of
that, they get a phone call telling them that somebody has seen raw shark and
they realize what it actually is. Did you realize when they said raw shark and
they realized what it is what they were talking about or did it take you a
minute [crosstalk 00:38:10]?
Justin: It
took me a minute. It’s one of those things that sort of makes you think. It
draws you out of the story. It sort of makes you look at the matrix of it for a
second because it’s wait, what are they talking about? And then it … And I
think that’s an interesting technique to do here. It sort of resets your brain
in a weird way. Because look, it’s one of the only panels, especially with
these cops, where there’s just the punchline of the joke and a huge reaction
from the cop in the foreground. It’s such an emphasized moment and I think it’s
meant to sort of get you keyed back into the mystery.
Pete: Yeah.
I don’t know, it just seems like this weird dad joke in the middle of a comic.
I don’t know.
Alex: It
made me laugh when I realized I also felt super dumb that I didn’t pick up on
it as it happened until I saw Rorschach on the next page. And I was like,
“Oh yeah. Okay. I get it. I get what we’re going for.” But then we
get into the next scene with Moloch that we talked about before which does
visually parallel almost exactly what happens towards the beginning of the
issue, except this time, as we come around Moloch, we find that he’s been shot
in the head, Rorschach has been set up and then we get this action sequence
which to the point you were making earlier Justin, Rorschach goes beyond
vigilante justice here to the point where I think he is cruel to these cops who
are trying to track him down. What’s your guys take on it?
Pete: Well
I would just like to say the coloring of Moloch being shot in the head is
really powerful and amazing.
Justin: Yeah.
Pete: And
it’s kind of spooky. The first time I read it, I was really grossed out.
Justin: I
wouldn’t say he’s cruel, it ends up being cruelty to these cops, but he’s just
desperate. He’s not trying to hurt them more than he needs to for pleasure. I
think he’s just like, “Oh fuck. I have to do everything I can to get
away.” Because he’s never been boxed in like this.
Pete: Yeah.
Backed against a wall.
Justin: And
his whole life is at stake. Yeah.
Pete: Yeah.
Alex: So
yeah. He does, though. He gets out. He jumps through a window. He sets people
on fire.
Pete: Yeah,
he does.
Alex: Ultimately
they catch him. They unmask him. And there’s one, again, I read this personally
as a joke similar to the raw shark thing. But the second-to-last panel after
he’s screaming, “No! My face! Give it back! Who the hell is he?” They
drag him off. He’s lost one shoe. His hat is hanging on the other side and the
dialogue is everything balances. When clearly, this panel in particular does
not at all. You have one shoe on, one shoe off. You have the hat in the upper
left corner.
Alex: Certainly
it parallels stuff that’s gone on in the beginning because we had the
newspaper, we had one shoe hitting the puddle at the beginning. We end with the
reflection of the pirate S sign. I don’t know, I just thought this was a funny
thing where you’ve had this whole mirror image issue and the second-to-last
panel is something that throws off that pattern in a certain way.
Justin: But
I think on the theme of the story, at the beginning of this issue, Rorschach is
walking in, super confident, cocky when he’s confronting Moloch. He plays a
weird trick on him as part of the mystery. And he steps in this puddle with
intention to go do that and in the second-to-last panel, he’s being dragged
back out of the house at his absolute lowest. So I think it balances out emotionally
for Rorschach, where he goes from the top, he’s in his element, he’s solving a
mystery, he’s making moves forward to absolutely back to the lowest point he
could possibly imagine.
Alex: I
think that’s fair. That makes sense. Let’s talk about the back matter, as well,
because there’s a whole history of pirate comics that goes on here, which I
thought was so neat. And it actually includes a lot of real writers and artists
and contemporaries of Alan Moore who were working at D.C. Comics. And for those
of you who didn’t read this or didn’t maybe listen to a previous episode of the
podcast, one of the things that’s going on in this world is because superheroes
existed.
Alex: Very
specifically, Marvel Comics totally failed and Marvel Comics totally failed
because their big hit was Fantastic Four #1. They made all of their money off
of superhero comics, so they never became a thing in this world versus D.C.
Comics which has historically, actually always been very adaptable in terms of
the times or at least more adaptable seemingly than Marvel. And here, what they
did was they had some hit pirate comics when their superhero line was starting
to fail and they followed that path down and pirate comics became the biggest
thing in the world. I thought that was great. Even more than the under-the-hood
stuff, I really loved this one. I thought it was fantastic.
Justin: Yeah.
That’s such a funny detail and I know we’ve talked about it before that pirate
comics are so successful in this world. It’s so weird and so it reminds me of,
what is it? The comic about eating, where …
Alex: Chew?
Justin: Chew,
where the chickens are revered.
Alex: Yeah.
Justin: Yeah.
That’s such a funny random detail of that world that doesn’t really play into
the action, at least at the beginning and so funny.
Alex: Yeah.
Another thing that I really like about these sections and again, I’ll cop to
the fact that I pretty much skipped over them the first time that I read
Watchmen is how good Alan Moore is at writing in different styles, which I
think is an incredibly different thing to do. Specifically, I find a lot of
times when people try to do the Watchmen thing of having back matter, it feels
like a comic book writer tried to do it. You know, my day job is writing news,
so certainly I focus on that and I get very picky about that. But when somebody
who is not a news writer writes a news article in a comic book, it always feels
super off. It does not feel like something anybody would actually write.
Alex: But
the under-the-hood sections feel like a dishy tell-all autobiography. This
section writing about the pirate comics really does feel like a super scholarly
look into the history of comics. Again, not that it’s a huge revelation that
Alan Moore is a good writer, but I’ve been very impressed to read those just in
terms of the different voices that he puts throughout them.
Justin: Yeah,
the specificities. Cool.
Pete: It
also reminds me since we also talk about other comics, it reminds me of
Hickman’s X-Men run where it’s you’re getting a lot more layers to what’s
happening and there’s actual just writing in between the art and real comic.
Alex: Do
you think he ripped off Hickman’s X-Men run?
Pete: Yeah.
I definitely think Alan Moore ripped off Hickman. Yeah. Yeah.
Justin: Alan
Moore just texted me and he said he did.
Alex: Oh
wow. I love how he always does exactly what we’re talking about even though
we’re not here. That’s why he’s my pink champagne buddy.
Justin: That’s
the weirdest thing is since we’re recording this separately over Skype, he is
Skyped into this call, he’s just not saying anything.
Alex: I
can see your face buddy.
Justin: That’s
just [crosstalk 00:45:32] busy.
Alex: I
can see your face.
Justin: He’s
taking … Yeah.
Alex: Oh,
I love that guy. If you would like to support our podcast
patreon.com/comicbookclub, also we do a live show every Tuesday night at 8:00
p.m. at the People’s Improv Theater Loft in New York, and I will chat with you
about Watchmen. A couple of different places socially you can check out this
podcast. Pete you remember what the Facebook page is?
Pete: Nope.
Slam.
Alex: Great.
It’s watchmanwatchpodcast on Facebook and Instagram. Justin, you want to plug
that Twitter?
Justin: Yes.
It is … our Twitter is comicbooklive and the Watchmen one is watchmenwatch1,
is that right?
Pete: Yeah.
I know there’s a 1 in there.
Alex: There
is a 1 in there. Also, we didn’t do this on the first couple episodes, did want
to give a shout out to Jeff Solomon who wrote the theme music for the show.
Justin: Yeah.
So good.
Alex: You
can check him out on Instagram at megajerf. That’s his Instagram address. It’s
mostly pictures of beautiful food and cocktails he made, but he writes good
music, as well. So thank you, Jeff, for doing that.
Pete: Thanks
Jeff.
Alex: Check
us out at comicbooklive.com for this podcast and more. Our podcast is now live
everywhere so please be sure to subscribe to the specific podcast feed, iTunes,
Android, Spotify, Stitcher, app of your choice. Particularly on iTunes, if you
wouldn’t mind going over and rating it and leaving us a comment, that would be
much appreciated. And remember, we taped this podcast 35 minutes ago.
Justin: Bye
Alan. Oh you’ll be here next … He just texted me. He’ll definitely be here
next week and he means it.
The post Watchmen Watch: Issue #5, “Fearful Symmetry” appeared first on Comic Book Club.
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