Water For Fighting

In his second-to-last episode of the season, Brett sits down with attorney, lobbyist, and former secretary of the Department of Environmental Protection – Ryan Matthews. They discuss his family’s deep roots in Upstate New York; the example left behind by a renowned attorney and lobbyist father; the joys and challenges of leadership; and his flirtation with a life of crime.

To learn more about Section 404 of the Clean Water Act, go here: https://floridadep.gov/water/submerged-lands-environmental-resources-coordination/content/state-404-program

To learn more about the Central Florida Water Initiative, check here: https://cfwiwater.com and here: https://floridadep.gov/water-policy/water-policy/content/central-florida-water-initiative-cfwi

To reach Ryan at his law firm, Gray-Robinson, head here: https://www.gray-robinson.com/offices/tallahassee-fl

You can email Ryan directly here: [email protected]

Our theme song is “Doing Work For Free”, by Bo Spring Band (Apple Music) (Spotify) (Pandora)

speaker:Welcome to  Water for Fighting, where we discuss the past, present, and future of water in Florida with the people that make it happen. I’m your host, Brett Cypherz. As we get into the last two episodes of the first season here at Water for Fighting, I like us to close out with individuals who I think are really going to grab your attention. And that’s why I think it’s so fitting that today’s guest is one of the most well-liked and respected environmental lobbyists working in Tallahassee today. And that’s Ryan Matthews. I had the privilege of getting to know Ryan over a decade ago when he was making his first as the director of office water policy and eventually as a DEP secretary. He would go on to use his skills to represent some of the largest utilities, local governments, professional associations and businesses in the state and is now doing that as a shareholder for the highly regarded Gray Robinson law firm. Now on to the conversation. Welcome to the podcast, Ryan. Oh, are you sure? Thanks. Out of nine guests now that I’ve had on the show, nearly all of them are either from here or somewhere else in Florida. or somewhere other all together and you fit in that last part. You’re from New York, right? I am upstate New York. So, you know, most people see 95% of New York is New York City. I am from CalPastor, Troy, New York. Okay. And so is that the deal is I’ve known people from New York City and that, and basically every place it’s not New York City is, is upstate, right? Is that kind of the deal? Effectively. Yeah. But you’re actually up the state. Upstate. I mean, you know, side of the capital Albany. So the home of Uncle Sam. No big deal. Oh, there’s an actual Uncle Sam. There’s an actual Uncle Sam. Oh, wow. Yeah. Very. There you go. New Saliva. So your mommy and dad are both from Troy, correct? They are as well as I mean, really, the entirety of my extended family is from Troy, New York. So my parents met when they were about 10 years old. at 12. So that’s how it is in New York then. That’s how it is. How do I say small town? I mean small town. Tell me about what, and that’s interesting. I’m like that they, you know, from 12 years old, that’s a huge deal. That doesn’t happen often anymore. It’s a unique story. They lived a couple blocks away from each other. So obviously in elementary school or grade school, if you’re a northerner, they met and, you know, started dating at 12. They took one year off of their relationship from being together. And that was till the time my dad passed at 61, we’re together from 12 years old. Wow. So you said your entire extended family is from Troy. What brought your mom and dad down to Florida then? I mean, the short answer is winter. That’s kind of something that is pretty harsh up there. My dad played quarterback. He was a five, nine quarterback at the University of Rochester. managed to escape Troy for a short period of time. And then he decided to go to law school. And he decided to go to law school at the University of Miami in Coral Gables. And we can get into the issues that caused me as a child later on. But, you know, Escape in New York, they decided to go to Miami. My mom was a registered nurse down there. You know, you’re talking late 70s, early 80s. So from a, you know, health perspective, you’re talking about emergence of HIV and sort of the civil unrest in Miami at the time. I have some great stories about things that occurred. But yeah, it was literally, let’s go to law school. My mom, who was always his partner, said, absolutely, let’s go to Florida. Wow. So he was the one person in the entire Matthews family that figured out that winter is horrible in New York. They all seem to embrace it. Now, you moved down. I think you said eight months old. Is that right? I was eight months. So Born there my dad then took the bar here in Florida And I think while he was sort of looking for next steps I stayed in New York with my mom So he was on sort of this original path that was not you know environmental law And I have a quick story about that. That’s pretty funny. So He was a 3L at the University of Miami last year law school. Had a fairly prominent internship if you will with a criminal defense attorney down there. And this one client just happened to be a you know high-ranking member of a certain drug cartel that they were going to federal court. Ultimately win the case that they were representing this group of gentlemen on and they come home to their really small apartment in a bad area town you know, boxes of chocolates and dozens of roses that are in their apartment. And my mother said, if you represent these people and they know where you live, you’re gonna do something else. So criminal law very quickly became environmental law. Yeah, I hear my dad was in the IRS in the early to late 70s out of Miami, the Miami office, and and my mom did not enjoy his tenure down there, which is why we ended So what was little Ryan Matthews like? You grew up here in Tallahassee though, right? I grew up in Tallahassee. I mean, so when we moved, my dad met Wade Hopping probably early, 1981. We moved to Tallahassee shortly thereafter, probably latter part of that year. So I spent a majority of my life here. Young Ryan Matthews was sports obsessed living in Tallahassee. I mean, we had sort of, conference basketball, FSU basketball. We had, you know, fantastic FSU football at the time. So if there was a baseball, basketball, or football game going on, I was there. How on earth does that work at this point? So you’re from New York, you’re family bills, fans. It’s like, how does the sports dynamic work in the Matthews house? Cause your dad is, University Miami law. Abbot hurricane family. fighting what’s of University of Rochester? It’s a good question, I don’t know. I don’t know. Probably why if I have nine quarter back could actually play football. So not a lot on TV, so I mean Miami though, however. And that’s how it was when you were growing up, was all University of Miami, is that the? Pushed on me from my father, which I rejected outright. I mean, I was a diehard and am a diehard Seminole fan. It may be just in spite of sort of his actual fandom of the University of Miami. So. the relationship that I created, I mean, you can imagine me in my, you know, 10, 11, 12 years old, white right one, two, and three, where I’ve got a father, and for those who knew my father, was not shy about rubbing it in my face that, you know, I just had my heart crushed because we missed another field goal to the right. I think that sort of, you know, it spurned or caused our relationship to be quite dynamic from the start. But I mean, in terms of a North versus South sports relationship, I mean, obviously, it’s much more professional sports related up there. I’ve got family, you know, split in between being Mets and Yankees fans, a lot of New York giant fans. But so college football and the passion that we have down here for college football, I think it’s missing up there. Yeah. Unless you’re a big Syracuse fan, I’m not. was the basketball. You can, they can survive it with that. I have a friend who’s a Syracuse fan, but she’s also a Florida State fan, but she went to the University of Central Florida just to give you an idea of how weird it gets. And we’re gonna get to that in a little bit, cause we’ll have to come, I think we’re gonna have to come back to the sports part when we get to a little bit later when you’re college career, cause you get, you throw all of this giant curveball in there. But I wanna talk about still, you’re a kid, you love sports, is hilarious. By the way, it’s like your dad was for a guy that’s setting up as a litigator. He kind of ended up lobbying like that. I thought it was interesting that you mentioned that because he was one of my favorite people to hear because he was so passionate. He was always grinding at an issue and really passionate about it. So that was an interesting nugget I didn’t expect there. So let’s get back to you as a kid though. Sure. You played baseball. Is that your big one? Did you play like a lot of kids you play a bunch? I played everything. Baseball was the most consistent and it was year round for me, which was a little bit different back then. I mean, this was sort of the onset of travel baseball. Now, you know, every eight year old has a travel something team. Things have changed quite a bit. But yeah, I played baseball year round all my life. So what position did you play? What was your main position? Like what got you to pick past high school travel ball? catcher so I hit left-handed but I threw right-handed and my father used to say that he did not teach me to hit left-handed I simply picked up a bat and hit left-handed and if you can you can do that NBA catcher you’re generally in pretty high demand. Yeah I mean I that always seems to be the way especially when you you know in the in the earlier ranks is no one’s no one’s hitting left I mean where you find a left-handed hitter a left-handed pitcher they’re like gold. That’s just it I mean the vast of kids are throwing the ball right handed from a pitching standpoint. So if you can be left handed, you’ve got to just sort of a one on one. Yeah, curve balls out. And so you ended up in playing baseball at Santa Fe College and that’s in Gainesville, right? It is. It is. I had very briefly attempted to walk on at Florida State University where I attended my freshman year, but realized that that might have been a different caliber player at that point. I saw that in the bio. And my assumption was you go to Santa Fe because you want to try to walk on at UF. But it was used tried floor state and then went to Santa Fe. Yeah, so coming out of high school, I probably had a number of opportunities to play. At Small Division I, a lot of Division II baseball programs was struggling as many 18 year olds do about, you know, what does their future hold? What do they wanna do? How much do they really love? What they love at the time? And I made the decision, you know what? I’m going to try to walk on an FSU, don’t really love baseball, probably played it too much up until that point. And then I think the heartbreak of not making FSU’s team, which I watched all my life, I kind of said, well, maybe I do really like baseball. And so Sanfe was an easy choice. When you say the idea of not making it, is that is not getting drafted or not playing at a… division one school. It’s probably both simultaneously. You know, realizing that just because you were really good in high school doesn’t mean that you’re going to be really good at the best college program or that you’re ultimately going to become a professional baseball player like so many you know, five, six, seven, eight year old boys want. Yeah. So when you’re faced with that reality it was sort of alright well let me play junior college baseball for a couple years, have fun, but also you know, at about 20 say to wake up at 5 a.m. to lift weights and run. Maybe I can just drink beer like a normal college kid. But at that point then, let’s get to the psychology of the decision making at this point. Sure. Your dad’s a University of Miami grad. You grew up a Florida state fan. You got a Santa Fe to play college, perfectly natural thing to do under your circumstances. And then now, help me with the logic train of instead of going back to Tallahassee for the big, you know, the major colleges in Florida, University of Florida, do undergrad. Is that right? It’s true. Well, I mean, a couple of things, right? I was already in Gainesville, so easy transition there. And I love Tallahassee, and I’ve always liked Tallahassee, but it is, for me, it was important to spend time elsewhere and just get to know a different place. And I love Gainesville. Gainesville, the town, is so much fun, kid but my allegiance to Florida State never never waned. Was that was that weird down there you’re going to school in a place where and they’re you know lively. They’re lively. I was pretty vocal about it probably because I was just that you know young guy who wanted to maybe cause some some issues so I proudly wore my Florida State stuff on campus and surprisingly never got punched in the face. That’s yeah. Well you didn’t get punched but you did start a life of crime there. Or is that when the life of crime is there? I dipped my toe, I dipped my toe. Tell me about that. It must feel either vindicating or hilarious or something now because there’s a thousand after market ticket sale services where you can buy yourself tickets however you wish. Yeah, there is. There wasn’t at the time. So we had a really good setup where, you know, for those who attended the University of Florida, we had a house with five guys, caddy corner to the law school. So you’re talking, you know, steps away from the swamp. And you mentioned the liveliness of Gainesville and the students there. So, you know, 2001, UF’s got a good football team. I mean, we’re talking like Rex Grossman days for those who, you know, remember college football well. Tennessee was in town, which east rivalry. You know look, college students get tickets for basically free. And if there was an opportunity to make some money on those tickets, young Ryan Matthews was gonna take advantage of that opportunity. So we had had a tailgate early on in the morning for this big night game as we were want to do. A van with a gentleman with a cardboard sign that said I need tickets hanging out, pulled up into the driveway and I said let’s let’s enter into a transaction my tickets. Turns out that gentleman was an undercover cop. And at the time, scalping tickets was illegal. So yeah, I pleaded no contest to ticket scalping violation. Thankfully, I’m still, you know, statute of limitations or whatnot has passed. I’m okay. I’m gonna say we can put in a word with the governor, try to get that expunge for you. So you graduate after your time in foreign territory at the University of Florida. law school, how much of that is related to your father’s practice? Initially, none of it. I was actually adamantly opposed to doing what my father did. And that’s not a shot in any way, shape, or form. It’s actually the opposite. I revered what my father did and I saw how well respected he was. And I thought, by walking in his shoes, I number one didn’t want to get accused of getting anything because of who he was right or what he did But number two, I also just said why would I want to become an environmental lawyer? It doesn’t make any sense to me at the time right so I was working in DC on the Hill and I was working for Senator Bill Nelson at the time and My father called me And he said listen, you know you’re doing good things. That’s fantastic fact that you’re working for a Democrat in DC. If you want to always for the rest of your professional career work for Democrats then stay in the job you’re in. And I said, well that doesn’t sound like a great idea. Maybe I should do something different. Maybe I should go to law school and that was law school. Wow. And you’re right. It’s like it is a tough thing because your dad was so well respected and so good at his job. I guess to maybe credit and yours. I didn’t know that the two of you were related until I don’t know you’d been around a little while or at least I’d you’d been around me a little while. I was like oh well that you know that sort of makes sense you know there but I assumed okay well Frank’s an environmental attorney and and lobbyist so obviously that’s what Ryan’s gonna want to do but but it always seems to be the the story is always a little more complicated than that so yeah it wasn’t obvious to me it was only that I got into law school and I think is most students do when they first matriculate, it’s okay. I don’t wanna be a prosecutor. I really don’t wanna litigate. I don’t wanna do family law. My goodness, that’s heartbreaking. So I started checking boxes and it was, back to the sports obsessed 10 year old, should Ryan become an agent? That’d be cool. But then I took water law class and I took a couple of environmental law classes and thought, all right, I kinda dig this. But to that end, I’m like knowing that you didn’t want to necessarily go into it be an environmental attorney or maybe an attorney at all. But did did junior your dad talk about that sort of thing when you were your younger issues he was working on, you know, client stuff? So yes and no. I think a lot of it was sort of the I always say I kind of picked it up through osmosis, which is, you know, completely incorrect scientific term. how I envision the process playing out as a kid. We talked about what he did. My memories of him, you know, especially early on, are constantly talking into a dictaphone. He generally was always present. For as hard as he worked, he was always present. There was rarely a baseball game that he missed. And so because of that, you know, my most vivid memories of a child are him, you know, in bed at night with just papers scattered everywhere until like two in the morning working. So we talked about it, but mainly it was because he represented, you know, folks like Disney and Mosaic and was part of really cool projects, you know, like permitting nuclear power plants. So even though most kids have the, you know, don’t really care what my dad does type attitude, I was always at least interested in on some of the stuff he was he was working on. Yeah. You mentioned that him being present even in the midst of that. And it is a hectic lifestyle that he led that you lead now. Did that carry over? It’s always, you’ve always struck me as one of the folks here who is actually married to their wife and actually has a family that they enjoy and not the other way around. Is that true? Yes, definitively. I would say that, and I learned that from my dad. Constantly on the go constantly busy constantly taking client calls But he was when he was with us. He was present And it’s something that I hope I mean I’ve got a 10 year old daughter an eight year old son Been married for almost 13 years, you know, it’s something that I try to emulate the best that I can because yeah, it’s nice to Love your wife and love your family and enjoy them And I learned a lot of those lessons from him nice nice So let’s get to beyond law school. You come back home, right? Or did you not come back home? Come back home. So after law school, I was a glutton for higher education. I went to the University of Denver and got an LLM, an environmental law, which is- What’s an LLM for the non-attractions? It’s a specialized master’s in a subject matter area. I think it really kind of started with taxation being the main focus. And then different folks, universities, branched out on subject matter. those in Denver, you know, for someone who was 23 years old, 24 years old, not a bad place to live. Yeah. And so how long was that in Denver? It was only a year. Okay. So my now wife, we were dating at the time, actually met at a wedding in Tallahassee where she went with my former boss, Bill Nelson’s son, and I happened to leave with her, which probably angered the Nelson family. But we were distance was planning on actually staying in Colorado. I had a job at the National Park Service, was digging it, was in their legal counsel sort of internship program, but it was 2007, 2008. So that was about the time that, you know, country was in a little bit of a recession. Once that, that gig ended, it was, well, let’s go back to Tallahassee, my wife at the time owned a home here. She was a teacher, her family’s from here. So it was an easy, easy call. like it. But you said she grew up here. She grew up here. She’s never lived anywhere else despite the fact that I’ve lived five or six places. So then when did you actually get married? Was it make it 2010? We got married in 2011. Okay, gotcha. Okay. And so you’re all degrade up. Many degrees. You’re learned up. You’ve got the buds of a new family. And now you’re starting work here in Hasse was your first job at DEP? Where did you go first? So when I came back in 08 I started with Jeff Cockamp who was Lieutenant Governor at the time but running for Attorney General and so he had just started his campaign and through the Republican Party of Florida you know they kind of said hey would you like this hot-shot kid got all these degrees to help you work on your campaign. So I was Governor Cot Camp’s, you know, bad guy, travel aid, I self-proclaimed policy director because I wanted to sound official. So policy director. So I spent a good year on the campaign trail with Governor Cot Camp and, you know, ultimately General Bondi won that election. Yeah, that does happen, doesn’t it? Sometimes. It’s very sudden after election day, you know, it’s like, so I don’t have a job anymore. And so at that point, I went and worked for the Florida League of Cities for almost six years in their general counsel’s office and then handling a number of legislative issues. That’s where I kind of cut my teeth lobbying, if you will. And it’s humorous for a couple of different reasons, mainly because Frank Matthews was sort of enemy number one of local government, or certain local governments across the state of Florida. So early on at least I got to take that pseudo adversarial role to my dad, which we kind of played off nicely with each other. Nice. I think that’s the first time I’d heard of you when you were at the League of Cities. I didn’t know you were there that long though, that’s interesting. It was, yeah. Now I bounced back from the general counsel’s office into just sort of a largely lobbyist role. Right, right. So six years. not at your dad’s law firm, which I think is a good sign, bodes well for, it speaks well not just of you, but also your father to not allow you to work there. And so you go out, you make your bones, you fight with your dad almost certainly. I’ve seen some of the legislation the old days that he worked on and you were definitely busy. Regulatory reform always gave me sort of the chills. comprehensive package. That’s what it is. But he in was a Jimmy Petronas and a few others just joined at the hip on some of those. It was interesting days. It was and I remember when that quote unquote regulatory reform bill passed, vividly remember Jimmy coming out of the house chamber and just bear hugging my dad. And it sort of encapsulated how A, how hard it is to pass legislation, but B, how closely you can work with some of those legislation. No doubt so how did you get the first time you and I ever really talked? I mean we may have we may have talked a couple of times sure while you’re at the cities But but we didn’t really interact with each other until you went to DEP And I think that was probably what 2011’s ish maybe 12 something like that. Actually it was more 13 was it? Yeah, yeah, what what got you there? It’s you know under what circumstances Why’d you take it because it was the office? It wasn’t it was at the office of water policy, right? It was It was largely because there was a recognized ceiling at my job with the League of Cities, quite frankly. And then secondly, our mutual friend, John Steverson. So I had, you know, the perfect time to consider a career change when your wife is pregnant and you’re a young guy. Secretary Steverson a couple times, it said, hey, I’d like you to come over to the department. I couldn’t wrap my head around working at a state agency at the time. him maybe twice. And so it was a lengthy courtship if you will. And I think he just finally broke me down and said, hey, I’ve got this really cool opportunity kind of starting my tenure there in this new role as well. And think we could do some cool things together. And he bent it to something else, right? Because the idea was it was tucked down into the agency before did not have the bandwidth that it And it was separate and apart because whether it was it was largely you know Johns and Herschel’s doing Herschel being being the secretary proceeding John Yep was the idea of making water a significant priority. Well and that was the you know the bulk of our conversation before I agreed to come in as I told him a couple things I said number one you know I want to report to you and just you I don’t want to talk to three people before I talk to the second right Number two, if we’re gonna really give the Office of Water Policy, you know, a robust sort of backing, you know, tell me what that means to you because you know, look, we’re a peninsula state who gets 50 plus inches of rain per year. Doesn’t mean we don’t have our water issues. We’ve got a number of them and maybe that’s because we have an abundance of water, but I knew that it was a really cool policy area and whether you’re talking about quality or quantity, the fold. Was that something that, I mean your dad dealt with environmental issues, but he dealt with a lot of issues. And so was that your portfolio at the League of Cities was, was you kind of moved into that territory, so it was a more natural transition? Yeah, so I would classify my dad as largely a dirt lawyer. I mean a lot of land use, a lot of private property rights issues, and he generally always represented either the business community or developers. I was at the League of Cities, I did a lot of land use work as well. I mean, we’re talking about early on sort of the rewriting of growth management laws and late 2009, early 2010, et cetera. So I started there, but also handled utility issues. And so as I kind of grew in my professional capacity as a lobbyist, my subject matter largely centered around environmental issues anyway. So it allowed me to sort of, you know, fight my father in the legislative or arena, but also kind of become passionate and carry over what I did at Denver as it related to water law effectively. And certainly there are stark differences between Western water law and Eastern water law as you well know. But yeah, it kind of helped me sort of, you know, chart a path that was a little bit of a niche focus. And so at that point, you serve as director in that office. But then is it because? little johns a giant quitter and left the department as the regulatory deputy secretary. So it’s actually Paula Cobb’s a giant quitter. Oh, Paul Cobb’s a giant quitter. And left the department as deputy secretary. So yeah, as office of water policy, you know, director, my, my most interaction and where we talked quite frequently is, is with water management districts. And so when Paula got a different opportunity, she stepped aside and, and Secretary Stevenson but hey, you know, how about going from an office of five, we go to an office of 1,100? That’s right. Sound good? And I said, yeah, bring it on. Yeah, and so you went from interesting policy discussions, budget conversations, you had a lot of that general oversight. You know, when you look at all five of the water management districts. So, but it’s fairly even kill. You got a lot of folks that, you know, partners and executive director, I’ve been one of them at the time to work with you on these issues, but you decide, so you go from that to what I consider top three, four hardest jobs in that entire agency. Without a doubt. Right. And so was it, hey, here’s a new mountain to climb or what took you there? So I think it was the opportunity to learn a whole host of new issues because you’re right. I mean, that. that job is so large when you’re talking about all air water and waste permits that come through the department in a state the size of Florida with the unique natural resources that we have. It was an opportunity but also it was scary as hell because there were a number of areas you know hazardous waste. Yeah. I hadn’t had a lot of interaction there and I’m still like to think that I’m still young so at the time I knew that I was not going to be the smartest in every room, especially on certain topics. Yeah. And so, I mean, on that subject, and because I want to touch on it because you ended up being serving a shift as the secretary of the agency, but going from at a pretty young age, at that time for certain a young age to be in that position, going from relatively small offices to enormous to entire agency, did you develop, have time to develop a management style in the midst of that or and if you did like what what was that? So I think obviously when you’re talking about leading a large group of people the first and foremost you kind of have to be the example and so I think I just stated that I knew that I wasn’t going to be the smartest person in the room. So I needed to A surround myself with the smartest people I could find and lean on their counsel as much as as possible, but B also gets to know folks who were quite frankly in the day to day operations. I mean, any given permit that comes into DEP of which there are thousands per year, you know, I’m not going to know the intricacies of one unless I spend significant time on it. I obviously can’t spend significant time on 1100. So I needed to lean on the folks who were, you know, in the muck, if you will, and doing things on a day to day basis. So my leadership style was, you know, let’s say, you know, let’s say, you know, let’s me show my appreciation, let me know and find out what you do for the department, and then make sure that you realize that you’re appreciated because there are certain obstacles when it comes to showing appreciation to state workers. You didn’t have the state budget that we have today where every year folks are getting a 3% pay increase. These were sort of austere times. I can’t reward you financially per se, but I can come tell you you’re doing a great job and I appreciate you and be open as sort of the head or pseudo head of a department or an agency entirety that I’m here if you need something. That was more my style. And you always struck me in those days, before really knowing you, as somebody who spent a lot more time listening than talking, which is for lawyers out there, but it’s not a common trait of attorneys or lobbyists often. Did that kind of fit in there as well? You’re going to a place and you do, you know, it seemed like you’re trying to, you know, figure out how do I best, you know, help these folks. Is that kind of the… Yeah, that’s fair. I mean, look, I was sort of thrust into a certain degree to some of these roles which I embraced, but also knew that I was interacting and engaging with folks who were heads of Fortune 100 companies as permit applicants for the department, but also politicians on a daily basis. So I needed to consume as much as I could to be educated on any given issue, but also as a 33, 34 year old, I just didn’t want to sound like an idiot. I wanted to make sure that… I knew what I was talking about and that led to probably me going prematurely gray and spending a lot of time on different issues, but I like to think that it also made me fairly effective too. Yeah, I agree. And so to touch on, so you leave the agency to go out into the private sector, but I want to talk for a minute and give you a chance to kind of help listeners understand something that kind of overlaps both of those things. Because you were at one point, the chairman Central Florida Water Initiative, which is a long-standing organization of sorts to try to solve some pretty significant water quantity issues, but also section 404 of the Clean Water Act was something that Florida ended up being delegated from the federal government. Both of those have their significant challenges, but you were, you know, chest deep or deeper, some might say. Tell me, or tell us, what is Section 404? Why the state would want to take on responsibility in that delegation? Sure. And then some of the challenges there. So Section 404 of the Clean Water Act governs discharges of dredging fill material into waters of the United States. So anytime you’re moving dirt, particularly around a wetland or other water body, you’re going to require a Section 404 permit. Historically those permits were granted by the Army Corps of Engineers. Florida has a similar permitting scheme that you’re well versed in in an environmental resource permit. A lot of water management districts will actually issue environmental resource permits. So why did we want to assume the 404 program in Florida is because somewhere between 85 and 87% of the time those two permits overlap. You’re effectively getting a permit. the same activity. And there are very different, call them, you know, shot clocks that a federal agency like the Army Corps of Engineers has versus what a state environmental agency as a water management district or DEP has. There is no shot clock for the Army Corps of Engineers to issue it yet. So you legitimately have stories of permit applications sitting on And that’s unacceptable, quite frankly. And I’ve always viewed our regulatory agencies as absolutely necessary for the protection of the natural resource. But that does not mean that construction activities and development still shouldn’t occur. Now, you should have those within the sort of the view of how do you balance the natural resources versus the development. And it should always be a very fine and even line, frankly. But the need for Florida to do so, I think, was just efficiency. Michigan and New Jersey had done it prior, so there was some precedent set. And this was a conversation that as I was secretary, and really in 2015, 2016, was sort of blossoming as this is our opportunity of which we’ve tried for decades to actually get this done. in the state of Florida. And the standards we’re talking about didn’t change. And so you’re right. It’s like there were these delays based on sometimes who knows what, but I think in terms of at least dealing with the regular community of saying, hey, there’s no difference in what you’re going to be required to do. However, you should be able to get an answer within a couple of years. Even if that answer’s no. Right. Because sometimes the answer is no. Yeah. Tell me about, I wouldn’t, I don’t want to say came off but somewhere in the transition. I’ve heard rumors in innuendos. I don’t know how much of it’s true but some have said that as soon as they knew that that delegation was really coming, reviewers put their pencils down, packed everything neatly in boxes and waited for that to happen and stop working. Has that… have you heard the same rumors or what? Because when you look at the dump that happened of permanent applications, I think it was days before Christmas and it says here you go Florida, how about it? It’s hard not to make accusations that there was some nefarious activity from federal agencies in certain regards. Yeah, I think that you’re right. There was a clunkiness to the assumption that probably was done for Well, we’re going to give it to you. We might not necessarily make it easy. But I think in any large government agency, you’re always going to have certain folks who they’ve been there and their mindset is, well, I’ll just wait you out as the applicant and it’ll be what it’ll be. And that same could be said for ahead of an agency. I was very clear to me at DEP that there were certain folks who said, well, man, I’ll just wait for three or four years. Right. And so I’ll continue to do what I want to do. Just to just to pause on that notion in terms of in terms of governance, in terms of trying to make a change. It was easy for me. I spent, you know, 10 years at the same agency, you know, heading up as like, but the lifespan of a secretary at DEP or any agent, any large state agency like that one, is not so long. I mean, almost never extends even to the the term of the guy that gave you the job. which is the governor. Does that present a challenge of you try to do something but it doesn’t really, nothing really sticks or, I mean in this case it happened and you know the assumption happened, you know the warts on it that you have to deal with to move forward or there but that’s got to feel at least a little good to have something like that that at least moves forward even if it has those. Sure and I, you know look I was a small part in that effort overall but it was nice to be able to lead the charge, to meet with folks who would be most impacted, to garner their support of it, to talk to the governor’s office, and quite frankly, you know, lead them down the path as to why this was the right decision for the state of Florida. Now, the actual assumption took three years, just because of the interaction with EPA, with the Army Corps of Engineers, with Big Fish, et cetera. But yeah, you know, this was also something that he sort of saw as the holy grail. And so it was even cooler for me personally to say, hey, you know, I had a small part in it. Yeah. And I assume, like under those circumstances, that if you had to do it all over again, you know, what’s an all you do it again? 100%. Yeah. Okay. So the other big one, the one I want to talk about, because it has had a lot to do, I was at SwiftMud, you know, a million years ago, I grew up, you know, around the CFWI area. Central Florida water initiative area. I think I said that before but just in case I made you the chairman of that ship Was it the Titanic or tell me tell me the well tell listeners first the function of the CFWI and You know and then is it working? How about that? Sure? Let’s start with the function. So for those who don’t know the Central Florida water initiative is a regulatory effort of multiple age You’ve got three water management districts, St. John, South Florida, and Southwest as you mentioned. You also have the Department of Environmental Protection, the Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services, and then Utilities. So the notion behind this effort was Central Florida is likely your most heavily population increasing area of the state. So obviously water resources are going to be constricted and constrained. We finalized through hydrological studies and data that we’ve got 800 million gallons per day of capacity in the aquifer in central Florida. We have a knee determination in the future because of that increasing population of say 1,100 million gallons per day of water needs. So how do you make up that delta of 300 plus million gallons per day for an ever-growing population? And so it was really cool to be able to try to solve a long-term planning process with our most precious resource that we utilize every day and need for survival. But how do we get there? Because you’re not stopping people from moving to Florida. So you’re going to need to make some pretty bold decisions, either now or in the future, about water permitting, about uses. Who gets the water? Those are big questions. Yeah, are you satisfied that the work that was done there, I’ve seen a lot of positive that’s come from it and at least some predictability. Are you satisfied with the follow through from the state or? No, we could do a lot more. One of the things that I really liked about my time at the department is I think, again, you talk about 404, but I really tried to focus on water quantity. Scott at the time, I think we got him on board and his administration on board with the need to fund alternative water supply projects. You go back to 2004, 2005, 2006, we were using the Water Protection and Sustainability Trust Fund and getting an eight to one return on investment in terms of dollars spent by the state of Florida. And we dropped off, obviously, because of an appropriating dollars for those large-scale alternative water supply projects for sustainability purposes. Yeah. Under those circumstances, you must think that even though they brought it back, and I think it was Governor Scott that did that originally, thanks to you, put something toward it, but it was not, this is not 2005, 2006 dollars. That’s, you know, that’s a hundred million dollars. Sometimes more the first year than that non-recurring was double that. So it’s quite a bit less. And so is that what you’re talking about? What is $100 million a number is $200 million a number? I mean, it’s an expensive lift that you’re talking about. And so does the $40 million a year do it. If you’re in the $40 to $50 million range, I mean, that’s the proverbial drop in the bucket, right? I mean, one of the things that I said multiple times on my public speaking tours secretary was that DOT has an 11 million. billion budget. You know, DEP at the time had like a $1.2 billion budget. Yeah. So while transportation is very important to a state that’s tourism reliance as Florida, you know, water is pretty dang important too. Yeah, I think there’s at least, certainly on the water quality side, it seems like that recognition is pretty, pretty widespread at this point. I think because once it’s touched, you know, everyone’s lives, you know, at this point, not just on the coast, that becomes relevant. maybe things like the CFWI have prevented us from realizing the deficit when it comes to things like that, especially given that we’re still such a fast growing state. Thanks to a governor and a string of governors that continue to make it that way, there’s a lot of water we’ve got to figure out how to get. From a funding perspective, Governor DeSantis has done tremendous things as it relates to environmental projects. You mentioned the Everglades and certain environmental projects. issues that probably get the bulk of the attention and the bulk of the money, quite frankly. But I mean when you’re talking about billions of dollars over DeSantis’ first term, you know, that’s a significant achievement and one that should be celebrated. The idea of the CFWI was, okay, we always talk about water issues as needing a regional solution. Let’s come up with a regional framework to present projects that will create regional solutions. I think we in having the legislature say we should be putting $200 million a year into the Central Florida Water Initiative and those projects they’ve identified as being a reasonable benefit. I’m not gonna, I almost baited you into the Avalorum at Water Management Districts discussion. I’m gonna leave that alone for both of our sake at the moment. It’s always tough to talk about taxes, right? I mean, now, I say that’s like I’m not gonna do it as I begin to do it. We talk about reasonable solutions. a water management guy. We have these regional organizations called Water Management Districts put a lot of their feet in terms of the you know, consumption use permitting and ERP. We talked about the you know, the 404 side. When you look at things like CFWI, Brian Armstrong’s done tremendous work. I mean, the Southwest Florida Water Management District itself used to have something I could call the financial engine that they would use and set aside millions of dollars every year to help regional water resource projects and it feels like sometimes we are handcuffing ourselves a little bit in terms of their ability for regional places and people there to make decisions to have how we pay for growth match up with with the growth itself. I agree you know Brian has done a tremendous job and Robert Beltran before you know really took on that that regional approach and with Anne Shortell at St. John’s. And I think you had a group of Water Management District Executive Directors and you’re certainly among those. I’ll allow your challenges in North Florida, maybe a little bit different. Not nearly as severe in that water supply. But no, I do think that we unfortunately don’t focus enough of our resources on large scale regional solutions. I know I’m taking a bunch of your time. lightning round of sorts because I tell, you know, I asked largely a lot of the same questions, but first before I do that, I do want to ask you what your approach is now. So now you’re outside of government, you’re not in an association. What’s your approach to the lobbying consulting world? Is it a lot like how you described, you know, being inside government? It can be. I mean, lobbying is unique. It’s an interesting profession to say the least, as an attorney and a lobbyist, I am a, you know, a zealous advocate for my client, and my client varies by the day. And the situation or the subject matter area varies by the hour from time to time. So I get paid to have opinions, which is a little bit different than, you know, being in a state employee where the mission is clear, it’s protection of the natural resource, it’s engagement and interaction with permit applicants and trying to get better Florida, I feel like I’m doing the same thing and I’m blessed to have a client base that is large scale still representing a lot of local governments. I represent a number of electric water and wastewater utilities, the business community as well. So I feel like I’ve got a nice mix of clientele, but the approach from a lobbying perspective is with term limits, I have to educate new members quite frankly on issues that are recycled. I mean, you know, idea gets left on the printing press in Tallahassee. They all come back in lunch shape or form. So I mean it’s you know at least being able to have a reputation that I’ve done it before you know in a position of some authority at a large department within the state of Florida. I’ve got the chops if you will and I mean it’s about relationships at the end of the day. So it’s a lot of meeting new folks trying to understand why they’re the position they’re in in the elected office, and then can you find some sort of common ground? There’s 120 house members, there’s 40 senators. Not every one of them is a 41 year old from upstate New York who likes live music, obsessed with college football. I mean, some of them are, but not all. So you really kind of have to be well-versed in many different things. I like it. So I can’t let you go. You said live music. What type of music? My music takes are eclectic. You know, I’ve been growing the hair out recently. So there’s some jam band in there. Certainly, you know, my college road trips were largely focused around a couple different bands in particular, but I love all kinds of music. My wife and I have a really solid group of friends are sort of our thing is traveling to see live music. I could be Jason Isbell one day to whatever the latest iteration of the dead is to, if I could catch a Sturgill Simpson show, that’s probably number one on my list right now if those vocal chords could get repaired. But Tallahassee, at least now these days, you could say, hey, Lucas Nelson’s coming next week. Great, Willie Nelson was here two weeks ago with Emmylou Harris. You can get something, whereas growing up, it was, hey, maybe MC Hammer drops in the town every five years. I always consider like, I guess when you’re grown up and you have access to a vehicle and fuel for that vehicle, I mean, you have Atlanta, Jacksonville, and Tampa all within, you know, striking distance. And so there’s a lot of good music that passes through and that’s for sure. All right, on to the speed run. What professional accomplishment are you most proud of? I think becoming secretary of DEP at 34, running an agency. 2,500 people and billion dollar budget and the 13th largest economy in the world. I think that’s it. You could do worse. It’s gotta be a- You could do worse, yeah. Is there anything about government, that government service, I think you may have mentioned it before, that you feel is kind of left undone or underdone. I would have liked to have made more of an impact from a water quantity standpoint of where I think we inevitably get to in this state and maybe we can talk about that at a later date, but that’s potable reuse. would have made more strides in the potable reuse world when I was at DEP. Yeah, that makes sense. Are you optimistic about the future of the environment and water in Florida? And if you are or not, why? I’m largely optimistic. And I think Governor DeSantis has shown the willingness to invest and prioritize, as has the legislature obviously, who has to craft the budget. I still think that we’re going to face some pretty again, how long can you pull significant quantities of water from the aquifer without either charging people more or which I know is a bad word, yeah, or trying to finalize or figure out how you do that in perpetuity. What if anything keeps you up at night regarding Floor’s environment? Losing Florida, I mean you know I think those of us and even though I was born in New York I’ve spent a majority of my life here and particularly North Florida which I love I mean, there’s something about old Florida, if you will. And I don’t want to lose that. We are, again, getting about 1,000 people a day moving here, which is not sustainable in keeping old Florida. So that’s what keeps me up. And what does Florida look like in 30, 40 years when my kids are, you know, hopefully in the same position and having children of their own? Yeah. What advice would you give to a young person who’s thinking about entering or just entering? public service or You know the things related to Environmental policy and service public service. I wish you know there was a mandatory aspect to it I think anybody everyone should get involved somehow quite frankly my advice would be to you know educate yourself Again, one of my biggest fears when I was young was just just looking like an idiot and doing your homework and You know identifying issues that your passion about and then having, you know, willing to be a human being and have conversations with people in a reasonable manner. It goes a long way and it can be lost in days like today. Yeah, it feels like that’s a conversation is a lost art. You haven’t lost your knack for it. Ryan Matthews, thank you so much for being on the show, man. Appreciate you having me. Well, that’s it for this episode. Thanks for listening to Water for Fighting. If you’re enjoying the show, please be sure to subscribe on whatever platform you use and don’t forget to leave a five-star rating interview. You can follow the show on LinkedIn and Instagram at FLWaterpod and you can reach me directly at FLWaterpod at gmail.com with your comments and suggestions for who and or what you’d like to know more about. Production of this podcast is by Lonely Fox Studios. Thanks to Carl Sworn for making the best of what he had to work with and to David Barfield for the amazing graphics and technical assistance. A very special thank you goes out to Bo Spring from the Bo Spring Band for giving permission to use his music for this podcast. The song is called Doing Work for Free and you should check out the Or wherever great music is sold, join me next time for our last conversation of the season with someone who has helped shape water and environmental policy in the Sunshine State. You won’t want to miss it. Until then, keep your whiskey close and your water closer.

In this episode, Brett has a conversation with recently retired Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission (FWC) Chief of Staff – Jennifer Fitzwater. They discuss how a kid from the Midwest makes her way to law school and a career in resource protection; what it’s like to have been the Chief of Staff for two separate state agencies; the difficult and complicated work going into solving challenges like manatee habitat loss and red tide; and what life’s been like since she rowed off into the sunset.

To learn more about what the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission does, go here: https://myfwc.com

To learn more about manatee protection efforts, check here:https://myfwc.com/research/manatee/rescue-mortality-response/ume/ and here: https://www.manateerescue.org

To learn more about where Red Tide is appearing and the research to help stop it, head here: https://myfwc.com/research/redtide/statewide/ and here: https://myfwc.com/research/redtide/taskforce/

Jennifer also spoke about her concerns regarding Lyme Disease and its potential impact on state workers who spend their days outside. To learn more about the disease and those risks, go here: https://www.floridahealth.gov/diseases-and-conditions/lyme-disease/index.html and here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2213078018300100

Our theme song is “Doing Work For Free”, by Bo Spring Band (Apple Music) (Spotify) (Pandora)

speaker:Welcome to Water for Fighting, where we discuss the past, present, and future of water in Florida where the people make it happen. I’m your host, Brett Seifers. I’m so excited to introduce this week’s guest, Jennifer Fitzwater. Jennifer spent the last 30 years in public service, but I first met her in 2003 when she was the Legislative Affairs Director of the Florida Department of Environmental Protection. She would go on to become the Chief of Staff of that agency and ultimately retired as the Chief of Staff of the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission. Now onto the conversation. Welcome to the podcast, Jennifer. Thanks, Brett. Glad to be here. So you retired from public service last September after a 30 year run state government How’s retired life treating you? Retired life is awesome Yeah, retired life is great Brett. Well before we started recording you talked about how that happened Which was like the immediate decompression going to was it Europe? I did I went to I went to Europe So the short version of the long story is I retired on Friday, Saturday. I was on an airplane to France where we spent three two and a half weeks. Wow. Awesome. So yeah, it was easy to kind of walk away and change get a change in mindset. Yeah. And we’ll get to some of that mindset in a little bit, but I want to start by going all the way back to the beginning. in St. Louis, Missouri, which I did not know before I saw your your bio, but you still have immediate family there, right? I do. All of my immediate family, my father and my brother, both still are in St. Louis, so I go there somewhat regularly to visit folks and, you know, kind of go go to the old stomping grounds. What was Jennifer Fitzwater like as a kid? I mean, did you enjoy the outdoors? I did. I did. I was an athlete from when I was very young. I started gymnastics when I was five, so there was a lot of that. But as far as family life and growing up in my neighborhood, we were always outside. Our neighborhood had woods right behind the neighborhood and a big field, so me and the neighborhood kids were always out getting into trouble. Every year our vacations we went camping to all the state parks throughout Missouri. So we spent a lot of time outside. That’s some gorgeous ones there too. What was your favorite in around there? When I was a kid, Elephant Rocks State Park, which is southeast part of the state, was always a fun one. Merrimack River State Park. That was close to St. Louis. But I had an opportunity. ago to go back up to Missouri in the south central part of Missouri to go to one of their newest state parks, Echo Bluff State Park. And that is beautiful. It’s absolutely gorgeous. It’s in the Ozark Mountains, kind of midway between Poplar Bluff and Springfield. Wow. You mentioned gymnastics. You’re a competitive rower. As long as I’ve known you, you’ve been a competitive rower. Did you do rowing back then as well or other sports, No, growing up it was mostly gymnastics. We did a little bit of track and field, but nothing as much as gymnastics. I started rowing in 1998 here in Tallahassee. So after I was out of college, had a job, been working for a few years, I saw a little ad in the Newspen, the Tallahassee Democrat, hey, did you ever want to learn how to row? And I was like, that. So going back to Missouri, you got your undergraduate degree in Missouri. Tell me about I want to understand the distinction. Yeah, I just think it’s all in Mizzou, but is it in my mind is University of Missouri Columbia? University of Missouri, Columbia is what people think of as Mizzou. And yes, that’s where I did my undergraduate work. But you ended up at Alvern University graduate school, is that right? Correct. How did you get, why Auburn? Like how did you get to Auburn? Great question. When I was at the University of Missouri, my undergraduate degree was in Fisheries and Wildlife Science and I wanted to, after I got my bachelor’s degree, I wanted to go on to get my master’s degree. And so I was looking for professors around the country in wildlife on things that I wanted to work on. And there was a professor at Auburn University doing waterfowl research. So I went down to work with him. That was really how I got to Auburn. It had nothing to do with the school itself, or the location. It was all about going down and working with him. Oh, that’s, I mean, that’s really, you know, that’s cool to see something like that and then go after it in that way. It was a little bit of a culture shock, I guess. growing up St. Louis. I don’t know if you’ve ever been to Auburn, but in 1986, it was really small. I have a cousin and I don’t know if she’ll hear this podcast ever, but she went to Auburn University the same time and was in some of the same classes as Bo Jackson. And so it was that same period. I wasn’t in that way. But she seemed to love it, but it was a small school, right? The school, I mean, Auburn was the school. I mean, you know, the town, it was there, you know, at least when I was there. It’s certainly grown since I’ve been there. So you’re, you’re undergrad and your graduate degrees, both in, and again. And so obviously, when you, you talk to your master’s degree and wildlife science, you know, under your you obviously go to law school. Obviously, because that’s what everyone did. Did any of your classmates go to law school? No, and I don’t know anyone in the wildlife program, whether Missouri or at Auburn that’s ever gone to law school, nor have I met a fellow lawyer that has a wildlife degree. So, no, it was not the most common thing to do. Yeah. So why? So when I was, as I mentioned, when I went to Auburn, it was to do, to work with my major professor on waterfowl research. I quickly learned that I didn’t have the patience to do field work and data collection. My master’s thesis was dealing with wood ducks and their nesting behavior, and to get enough data to be statistically significant. worth of data collection. And I knew what the answer to the hypothesis was going to be two months in. So I, yeah, I didn’t have the patience to do it. Well, that’s the, that’s the magic of being an attorney I hear is being, being right both all the time and immediately. So playing, playing to your strengths there then. Yeah. Yeah. So right out of law school, you go straight to the Department of Environmental Was that before it merged you know with DNR to become DEP as we know it now I Started with the Department of Environmental Regulation in October of 92 the A couple things happened The secretary at the time when I started was Carol Browner President Clinton tapped her to be secretary of EPA December of and she was confirmed in January of 93. That year, 93, the Florida legislature combined Department of Natural Resources and Department of Environmental Regulation. So I can’t, I think that was a March, May session. So, you know, starting May is when that transition started to take place. So, you know, six months in, I was at a new place. That’s, yeah, that’s crazy. I mean, feel like there was some sort of bait and switch or was it just like, Hey, you know, I’m right out of law school. This is how it’s going to be. And you just go, yeah, it was, it was just, we, we all went with the flow. I mean, for the most part, the two agencies were doing, so I was in the legal office at the time. So all of the lawyers that were with the department of environmental regulation, they were dealing with, you know, regulatory aspects of things. they were dealing with totally different things. So it wasn’t like there was a turf war over who’s gonna get the job to do whatever. We were all just doing very different things. Were they shocked to have, so you have the merge and your DER and these DNR scientists are looking over and they find out this lawyer is actually a scientist. I mean, did that help in that merge period or to give you street cred with your DNR partners? You know, honestly, at the beginning of the merger, I didn’t really have a whole lot of interaction with many of the DNR folks. Again, I was working, when I started in the General Counsel’s office, I was working on water issues. So mostly industrial wastewater issues. So when we merged, I was still doing those kinds of things. So I didn’t. certainly a wildlife degree wasn’t of any particular import to, you know, industrial wastewater, but the science behind it I think was helpful if for no other reason than just to understand conversations that people were having and you know kind of have that basic science background was helpful. For people like me who do not have you know hard sciences background it takes you a lot longer to learn the vocabulary and a lot more listening to understand what folks are saying. But you mentioned the type of case. I think at one point you mentioned you also worked on Everglades related issues. Or was it largely just, hey, we’re just doing compliance issues and things like that. So I did a little bit of all of it. So kind of the trajectory, if you will. When I started I was, I also handled some domestic wastewater issues. Those aren’t really very exciting and they’re all pretty similar around the state. Give me some poor utility guy out there saying, but I think it’s a similar. Yeah, they’re very, I mean, they’re important. Yeah, it’s important. But it’s not glamorous headline unless of course there’s some sort of spill or something. I was very fortunate that I got to work on some pretty high profile cases and the industrial, wastewater area. So worked on a couple big paper mill cases, a lot of phosphate industry cases. And I got to work on and I, you may remember this from a long time ago, but I had an opportunity to work on a project. I think this was like mid 90s, mid to late 90s. It was in Tampa Bay. It was the Tampa, Tampa water resource recovery project. And Fascinating project that I think was just way ahead of its time. It was an indirect portable reuse project. Oh, okay But the process that they used or that we used was just very different and it was designed that so that everybody all the regulators from the federal state and local side of things all of the engineers from the project side of things all of the public were throughout the entire process. So that at the end, every permit was going to be issued at one time and it was a fascinating project. It took a lot of work and a lot of time. A lot of people were involved and unfortunately it was just I say it was ahead of its time because people were not ready. People in the Tampa Bay region were not ready to you know take Howard F. Curran wastewater and put it in the Hillsborough River just upstream from the water, drinking water intake. But that issue, as all issues do, is back, right? And I think the level of discomfort is changed to something else to maybe more of a recognition of reality in that sense. I think so. I think so. I think back then it was just so, we weren’t in the position that we are now our water resources. So I think there’s just more acceptance of, hey, we’re gonna really have to be creative to provide for our water supply issues. It seems like that process, it’s an interesting one and one that I’ve seen a few times and I’m gonna throw an acronym out there and not knowing what it stands for. ETDM, do you remember? Oh yeah, Efficient Transportation Decision Yeah. Matrix sounds more fun. Matrix sounds more fun. But that mean, but that was, it’s a successful way of bringing people into understanding the, surprising that that’s not used more often. Well, it was a, it was a hard process because not only, so you’ve got a couple of different state agencies and so for that particular project, you had a couple of different state agencies. You had the federal government there. So you had the Corps of Engineers. had the Environmental Protection Agency. So that comes with all of the federal rules of what they can talk about and what they can share in an open forum. And then you have the public. I mean, it’s a lot of work. It’s a lot of work. Yeah, and then the disappointment at getting to the end of it is like, okay, well, that was fun. Well, that was really fun. It was great working with all of you. I got a piece of the, I got a square of the card. bit from the room we were in. Oh, that’s hilarious. It’s a memento. Fair enough. All that to say, I had a real opportunity because of the bosses that I had that they let me work on some of these projects, which then led me into working on Everglades issues. Nice. And the assumption is that over that period of time, you show yourself capable of working across other working on big issues and that leads me to when I met you. I think it was probably 2002, 2003 at the latest and you were already the Legislative Affairs Director at the department. Right. But that had started pretty soon before that, is that right? It started, I started working on legislative issues while I was still on The general counsel at the time really had the foresight to go to the legislative affairs director and say, hey, it would be really helpful if you had a lawyer helping with reviewing legislation, drafting legislation, helping on that end on a full-time basis. I mean, certainly there was always the consultive process where they come back. to do it full time. So I started working with the legislative affairs department probably around 99 maybe 1999, which then led to doing congressional work in the 99-2000 era, which going back to Everglades, that was the time period when SERP was being negotiated, written, and developed. So. Wow. I mean, what an interesting time though to be put into a position like that. Yeah. It was surprising to me, honestly. Because I was, you know, didn’t even have 10 years under my belt. And it was, hey, go to Washington, figure this stuff out. This is so then you’ve demonstrated another facet of aptitude then in terms of dealing with, you know, legislative issues, policy issues. So I was going to ask like this, was that transition hard going from what you’re doing before to being in the guts of an agency to being in front of legislators? But you were doing that. You were essentially already doing that, except on a more federal level. And then did you get pulled into some of those conversations with the state legislature as well during that period? I did. I did. I had the legislature. legislative affairs director at the time was gracious enough to allow me to be part of the conversation and to have that opportunity. So before I became legislative affairs director, I had some experience. And as I talk about all of these things that I’ve worked on, recognize Everglades, SERP, all of these things. There’s an awful lot of people. involved in all of these projects. Oh, for sure. Right, so it’s not like, I have not single-handedly done anything. Sure, sure. I think we were talking earlier, I mean, there’s, you know, what, 4,000 people or something like that. I don’t know how many were, you know, DEP in 2000. Oh, I don’t either. A lot, still. A lot. And for something that big, obviously, there has to be a big team, but you then become, well, let me ask you first, who was that legislative affairs director before you? Oh, well, oh my goodness, was it? So and and so he’s the kind of guy that would Provide you the slack to go out there and and and learn and and be a part of stuff. Absolutely He was the the best mentor I have ever had That’s awesome. Awesome. I I don’t know why I didn’t but I did not know that yeah, and he This is how I think of my timing is by what governor was in office So Governor Bush’s second term, Mike went into chief of staff position. And so he asked me to be the legislative affairs director, which, you know, he and I both thought, well, this is going to be an interesting, you know, when you step out of a role and give it to somebody else, are you going to continue to like come back? Well, maybe you should do this way. Right. It was seamless. I mean, he was so respectful. full of the way I wanted to do things and the changes I wanted to make and it worked out very well. And that’s yeah that’s that’s great and so you become the essentially the voice of the agency certainly when it comes to other agencies to the legislature to the governor’s office for sure. Right. You know I spent very little time in those days talking to Mike Jordan and and a great talking to you as you’re trying to teach me what the heck is going on. And you were nicer than I deserved in those days, I think. So you went on to become Chief of Staff at DEP. Let’s go ahead since you’re time stamping based on Governor, which Governor’s office was that when you became Chief of Staff? Do you recall? Chief of Staff was under Governor Scott. So I had a stint in there as Deputy Secretary under Governor Christ. Doing which which depth sector? Well, it doesn’t really exist at this point anymore, I don’t think. So it was kind of the we called it policy and planning. So we had legislative affairs, intergovernmental programs, which was at the time our liaison with Department of Community Affairs or their predecessor parts. It was a lot of the administrative pieces and parts of the agency, so IT, HR, those kinds of things. And then when I became Chief of Staff, I kind of had this weird thing of just taking everything with me everywhere. Those things all transferred to the Chief of Staff so that we could have the opportunity to create the now Deputy Secretary for Ecosystem Restoration. Okay. And I was going to ask, like, as a chief of staff do at DEP. And so, but I think, do they get a portfolio the same way that someone who’s a deputy secretary would be, or is it really taking on different things, depending on what’s necessary at the moment? I think it depends on the agency, and it depends on the person running the agency. So I can only really speak to DEP and to FWC. At DEP, I had my own portfolio of legislative affairs, still had all the administrative pieces, so budget, HR, IT, purchasing, all of those things. But also along with that, it was kind of the crisis du jour. Sure. You know, what’s happening. at that time, what needs to, where your attention needs to be. So it was kind of one of the, people always ask, so what does a chief of staff do? And I never really know how to answer that question because I can’t, I don’t have a very narrowly defined answer. Again, I think you can go to right now, any different state agency and the chiefs of staff, I’ll do different I bet. I bet. And I think it also, my assumption would be it’s based on those strengths there. Something, something I may not bother. Like you, you were really good and you spent many years working the department’s budget through the legislative process. Right. And so it makes sense that, you know, you would handle budget legislative affairs. Was communications also part of that as well? Or is that just, Hey, those folks work directly for the secretary? Or did you to work on those crises as they always do happen. Honestly, in the reporting structure at DEP, I don’t remember. That was too long ago. Under at FWC, they did fall under the chief of staff. Now, organizational structure is, I don’t know, I don’t get hung up on organizational structure. Right? It’s a map, it’s a picture on a piece of paper. If there’s something that’s a hot topic issue that you need to respond to or need to put out information on, that’s certainly going to go through the secretary’s office at DEP including the chief of staff or the executive director’s office at FWC. Sure. Sure. Well, to get away from the structural kind of more boring part into maybe something a little more. favorite worst crisis or your worst favorite crisis. However you want to phrase it, what was a big issue that popped up while you were sitting in that chair, that chief of staff chair, because every year was nothing but a crisis for 60 days in that building when you were a legislative affairs director. But what was maybe one of those existential kind of crises that you got? Two of them come immediately to mind. One is hurricanes. So, that hurricanes, whether it’s the 2004, 2005 season, whether it’s hurricane, you know, whatever, whichever, whichever one, that’s your focus. Right. Right. The other major event that took an awful lot of time, an awful lot of focus was the Deepwater Horizon oil spill. Did you see that one all the way through from from that chair was because it seemed like the timing is right for that. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes The accident was in 2010. I was in the deputy secretary position at the time. Mike Sol was the secretary of DEP at the time. So, yeah, saw that one all the way through. Another good one. Mike Sol, another good one out there. And so, I think your work on Deepwater Horizon ended up taking you to Fish and Wildlife. Did it not? Or was it sort of joined but not necessarily? did. So when that event happened, the governor named the state trustees for response and recovery as DEP and Fish and Wildlife. I’m just going to call it Fish and Wildlife or FWC because Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission is too much of a mouthful. You got it once everyone out there. So FWC familiar. had a number of dedicated staff working on nothing but oil spill. So there was a long time in negotiations on how to settle any civil and criminal disputes with the responsible parties. And then once that happened, then how do you go into restoration activities? So there was a there was a team at a DEP. FWC did not have a dedicated team. They had, you know, pulled staff from their real jobs and said, hey, go here. And so what happened was the executive director at the time said, I want to have one person kind of coordinate all of the activities at FWC. And that one person was the executive director, Nick Wiley, who I happened to know through my time at University. Were you there at the same time? He was leaving as I was coming in. I see. But we knew each other. And I wanted to get back to kind of more my roots, right? More wildlife fisheries issues and more substantive, you know, as opposed to what happened yesterday that we have to respond to. Right. So I went over to the commission, FWC, excuse me, in 2013 to be their Gulf Restoration Coordinator. And continued to work with DEP with the other four Gulf states and all the federal agencies and whatever on oil spill related issues. And so that sort of stuck, was it just a chance of timing? Who is your predecessor? becoming the chief of staff there? My predate at FWC the chief of staff when I went there retired and Nick came and said hey I want you to be chief of staff and I said no way I don’t want to do that I’ve done that before I don’t want to do it again and he said oh go on vacation but don’t make any decisions and I came back from vacation and he talked me into doing it. after all this time to be able to use that education and deal directly with you know wildlife, fish, habitat issues, things like that? Yeah I think so. I I didn’t want to get back into procurement issues. You know the the really important things that are required to run an agency but they’re not you know exciting issues that people think about when you think about FWC, right? You think about bid protests or, you know, yes, that kind of stuff. I hear I hear you. One of the things I’ve always been curious about and seeing seeing some of the vagaries from the governor’s office side of things when I was there was the relationship between FWC commissioners and their staffs as well as the relationship between the commission itself and say the governor’s office because it always seemed a bit different. Being a guy that ended up in a couple of water management districts, there seemed to be that relationship that dichotomy worked a little bit differently than it does there. Do I have that wrong? I never had the opportunity to work at a water management district, so I’m going to generalize from my viewpoint. Sure. I think they are probably more similar than they are different. My sense from, you know, engaging with the water management districts throughout my career, the governing board members probably have a lot of day-to-day interaction, not amongst themselves, but with the executive director. And that happens at the commission too. So the commission and the executive director are in touch quite regularly. They’re also in touch very regularly with the kernel of our law enforcement, of the law enforcement section, because there’s so much that happens there. They don’t themselves have a whole lot of interaction with the governor’s office. It seems odd you have the, you have commissioners that obviously they’re appointed by the governor. But it’s a bit of a difference. It was always described, you know, what Fishwine was like, we’re a constitutional agency and therefore, you know, a little bit different and some unknown way to me, you know, from say the relationship that the governor has to, you know, some of these other places. The commission derives its power very differently than the water management districts or any other state agency. As you mentioned, the commission is a constitutionally created agency, which really means the legislature can’t pass any laws. That would usurp that authority. Now, there are, the interesting thing is there are parts of the commission that are legislatively based law enforcement, penalties, you know, some are outlined in the Constitution. But from a day to day operational, how we interact as a as a constitutional authority, and I say we, you can tell I’m not completely out of retirement or in retirement. retirement yet. From a day to day perspective, it’s really not that much different. I mean, we need to, we coordinate with the governor’s office. I mean, you coordinate with the legislature. I mean, they still are in charge of the budget. So it’s not like we’re going to, you know, run out and do something crazy. Is that something that they could do without running a foul of the state constitution, which life did something that someone didn’t like. They said, well, I’ve got, we’re going to fix you because you’re not going to change this thing. I’m going to take away all of your budgets. Is that even something that they could do or that run afoul of the Constitution? No, that is, I mean, the legislature has the ultimate authority over the budget. They have the authority over the setting of penalties and license fees. So yeah, I mean, that is Certainly something that could happen, has it happened, not to my knowledge, but given that weird dichotomy, I mean, you’re a state agency. You still have to work with your other state agency brethren. You still have to work with the legislature. You still have to work with the governor’s office. Sure, right. And I know I’m throwing, it’s kind of unfair of throwing some hypothetical out there, but I’m curious, I’m guessing that, maybe a few other people out there might be curious about it. What actually happens when things go wrong? Like what happens at a water management district or fish and wildlife? But yeah, it’s like the natural course of things is you’re part of a constellation of agencies that have different missions, but congruent missions to each other. And so I think that makes total sense what you’re saying. another perhaps unfair question. You’ve been out for about six months, but a huge topic for people when you think about fish and wildlife is manatees. And so manatee populations historically over some really low levels for a while a few decades ago reached record highs and then that record kept going up and up and we’re thinking great things are going really well. And then the last few years crash, die-offs, not from the usual suspects as much, which is boat propellers and hulls, but things like starvation. Can you talk about that just a little bit in terms of what the response was like and what’s going on there? Yeah, so when you were correct when you said, historically, humanity populations were very low. Through a variety of measures, enough that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service took the manatee off the endangered species list. What you saw over the last couple years was what is called an unusual mortality event, which is a declaration by the federal agency of something that is happening in a portion of the population that needs to be addressed. And so what happened was on the East Coast, Most highlighted in the Indian River Lagoon, we had some die-offs because of loss of seagrass and cold weather. So you had a bunch of manatees hanging out in areas where they had no food. So unusual measures were taken starting last winter. So what is that? 21-22, which involved an the state, which has continued this year. Is there a danger that the manatees go back on on the list because of this? Or do you think it’s, Hey, if we if we sort out the problems going on in any river lagoon, that will be will find our way around it and we’ll get back to a healthier overall population. I have absolutely no idea what the Fish and Wildlife Service. I can say that at least of six months ago, there was no discussion about even, you know, even contemplating bringing the manatee back on onto the endangered list. It’s fair enough. Shout out to current fish and wildlife will be talking eventually. But speaking of from that perspective as well, meaning in fish and wildlife wasn’t the only agency looking at manatees as well, you have D, B and L or so. Absolutely not. I mean, and that was go back to what But I said earlier, when, you know, this is a big team effort on everything. Manatee issue was a huge team effort. We not only had other state agencies, so Water Management Districts, DEP. We had, you know, Indian River Lagoon National Estuarine program. We had the federal agencies involved, and we had private sector and other nonprofits involved. So, I mean, it was kind of all hands on deck. And a lot of agencies and NGOs involved, probably the private sector as well, involved in trying to figure out how to be red tide or at least stem the impacts. Cause there’s always, as long as I can recall, being a kid, I grew up in this state. There’s always been red tide, but it seems like it’s getting a little worse and a little worse or exasperated in some ways. And so we’re looking at trying to figure that out. What did that look like while you were still at Fish and Wildlife? Red tide, it was a pretty significant, it’s been a pretty significant issue over the last, gosh, eight years almost. I can’t remember the year we had one of the longest red tides in history. I mean, they’re usually very cyclic, right? So a couple of months every fall, early part of winter, you know, a couple of months here and there. They’ve been hanging around a little bit longer. as a state put a significant amount of resources into trying to, one, figure out, I think of it this way, there’s two component parts of red tide. So there’s the research, what it is, what triggers it, what are there conditions that need to be present, is that hurricane, is it some other thing that’s gonna trigger these? a number of world-renowned scientists working on that, headed up by the Fish and Wildlife Research Institute down in St. Pete, along with universities and what. I mean there’s some of the best researchers in the world on red tide organism. The other piece of that is once you have a red tide event, what do you do about it? Are there ways to lessen it? Are there ways to kill it? And that’s organizations like Moat Marine come in, they have been over the last five years have been doing tests on hundreds of different methods to try and ameliorate red tide. And as you know, dealing with science agencies, science doesn’t happen fast. You can find something that’ll kill red tide, but what else is it going to kill? That’s right. That’s right. I mean, you don’t want to go out there and, oh, we have this and run out there and then kill everything in the Gulf of Mexico. Right. Yeah. So, you know, and you start and when you’re doing these scientific research, you start at small scale, so desktop scale, then you go to a little bit larger and then you do field testing. It takes time, but Moat has been working very diligently on that. Nice. And for updates, you know, I mean, this is all in the public domain. for people that are interested in finding out the current status on red tide. Yeah, now I’ll put a bunch of links as I find them from Fish and Wildlife and Moat on the episode notes that way people can check that out for themselves. Now I want to get to some of the more wrote questions that I tend to ask other folks. What professional accomplishment are you most proud of? getting ready to retire. A colleague of mine that I worked with with from the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation in DC came down and asked me a very similar question, but a little bit different. His question was, what were your top five things in your career that you’re most proud of? And it was, it took me a while, honestly, because there, there are a number of things that I was fortunate enough to deal with. I mean, I think some of, some of them, at least for me, me, they’re not going to be very exciting to your listeners, I’m sure. You know, when we first started Everglades Restoration and we were building the first stormwater treatment area, well, the federal government said you guys need a permit for that. And the only permit was for a, you know, a basically a pollution source. It’s a national pollution doesn’t fit a restoration project. Right. And they said, well, you got to figure it out. So I mean, you know, a lot of back and forth, we figured out a way to permit those under that system. So that was a big deal. Yeah, that is a big deal. You know, getting SERP across the finish line in Congress. Yeah, that’s huge. That was big. One of the more recent ones, going back to the Gulf oil spill, the criminal penalties the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation and getting those restoration projects up and running and funded. That was maybe not in Waterworld, but in Fish and Wildlife World, $356 million worth of projects is a lot of projects. Well, in Northwest Florida Waterworld, that’s a lot of projects. Yes. And we were happy at the, and I was at the water managers for a long time, and we were the beneficiary of a lot of those. And remember, we had folks working with fishing wildlife as well. And it was an incredible process and a collaborative one. And a lot of places, you know, experience a ton of benefit that may never have happened. Sure. I mean, otherwise you’re right. Because when you think about, I mean, you know, I look at, you know, fisheries, fisheries management in the Gulf of Mexico. $75 million from the Gulf Environmental Benefit Fund went to that upwards of 70 plus million for Appalachicola Bay Restoration. That wouldn’t have happened but for this terribly tragic event. So some good comes out of that. This is a really bad thing that has happened. Huge number of people’s lives were impacted. And entire swaths of the Gulf Coast were severely impacted. But if not for that, all of those things that you just mentioned, in places that are suffering like the Appalachicola River and Bay, to have the opportunity to do some things that simply don’t meet the threshold of high priorities otherwise. have the availability of that from those penalties to go back in and be able to affect some of that restoration and enhancement beyond that. It’s enormous, enormous. It is enormous and that’s just kind of the front end. Some of the money that went to National Fish and Wildlife Foundation was from the criminal settlement. The civil penalties, I mean, they’re not even paid out yet. We’re going to be seeing some benefit from that until, you know, 2035, somewhere in there. Don’t spell oil is the moral of the story. Yeah. Is there anything that you see as left undone, that you’ve had, if you’d had more time and now I’m not suggesting that, hey, give it another decade, but if given a little bit more time that there’s something that you might have wanted to tackle. Yes. I mean, you know, I could sit here and say, you know, yes, I wanted to see restoration of Apollochicola Bay or, you know, those things are going to move forward. There’s a lot of really smart, talented people that have taken up the ball. That’s going to happen. There were two things that were really more of a personal thing for me that I couldn’t get across the finish line because they were either too complicated or I just didn’t have enough time. which was or is affordable housing issues for staff, especially in the keys, but South Florida in general. We saw a lot of issues after Hurricane Irma when so many people were displaced. You know, when you’re right out of college and you’re paid not a lot of money, you can’t find a place to live. So you end up working three, sometimes four jobs to pay rent. So that was a big issue. I’m hopeful now somebody else much smarter than me is going to be able to tackle that because I recognize that that is an issue statewide. The other issue is something that was much more personal which is it was a legislative issue. I just couldn’t get enough traction because I started it a little bit late but it has to do with staff that have contracted Lyme disease to try to instances where risk management denied claims, because Lyme disease is one of those things where it’s hard to know, did you get the tick bite when you were on the job, or was it when you were walking through your backyard? And Florida, up until a few years ago, we weren’t a big Lyme disease state. But everything’s coming south, and so now it is a big issue. And we had a number of employees that were impacted by that. That one, I think I just started a little bit too late. Do you think one of the solutions there, I’m just thinking about it is what were the things that you were looking at terms of time like some sort of disability insurance writers? I mean, there were a number of things that we were not going to be making this up wholesale, right? We looked at other states because other states had any number of ways to addresses, including insurance writers. issue. The other one is, if you have a certain type of job that requires you to be outside, that if you contract Lyme disease, you’re presumed to have gotten it on the job without having to make that demonstration that nope, I was, I was collecting fish or you know, whatever in the marsh. So there I mean, there was there’s a number of ways to deal with it. It just it’s, it’s complicated. And of course, it does. It was not solely an FWC issue because Water Management District employees are out in the field, DEP employees, Forest Service employees are out in the field. So it was like… It’s an interesting subject you bring up is like, I don’t recall that being something that, you know, we talked about at the Water Management District, but I had 13 people, like I had a small agency, right? And you have learned those how many people that are while biologists, law enforcement who are out in the woods, you know, doing these sorts of things. So it’s obviously it had to be much more prevalent. Are you optimistic about the future of the environment in Florida and why, either way? Yes, I am. There are, I mentioned it before, but when I think about, you know, when I left the agency, you know, some people, I don’t know, my sense is that a lot of people go on leaving and nobody can do it as well as I did. And I look back and think, oh my gosh, there are so many people that are smarter than me, younger than me, have more energy than me, we’re in good hands. They’re gonna do good things. I think there’s any environmental issue that the state is facing. You can look at it and fall down fair, you know, I mean, my gosh, it takes so long, you’re never going to get there. But I think if you continue to look at the small incremental wins, and know where you’re trying to go, and if you’ve got the people, the resources, which is a big issue. And I know on one of your other podcasts, you talked a lot about, you know, at least the monetary resources, financial resources. you know, with that, I’m optimistic about it, but I don’t like to get too depressed about things like that. I mean, does that come with the years of experience seeing that incremental change over over time that that gives you that optimism, do you think? Or is it just the recognition that smarter people than us exist and and they’re going to go, they’re going to go get after it and and it’s going to, it’ll work in the end. I think it’s a combination of both. You know, I don’t want to say, Brett, that you and I weren’t, aren’t smart. But I just, I know there’s people behind us that are going to do good things. You know, these are all the issues that we deal with. All the issues that you’ve talked to your other guests about are big, would understand is when somebody says, well, they’ve been working on this project for 30 years and it’s still not done. Well, it’s not like the people that started it 30 years ago didn’t know what the heck they were doing. It’s just a big complicated issue that has all sorts of ramifications that you have to take into consideration as you move forward. And it’s not easy. If it was easy, Everglades would have been done 20 years ago. That’s what you were talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, but to then ask you to go to the the pessimist side of things. Is there anything that keeps you up at night that you look at from an environmental sense, a habitat sense, a wildlife sense, a water sense, are like, man, I’m really worried about that. Fred Ashour had a great one with PFAS, you know, and those types of things. at night. Right, exactly. I think that, you know, I try not to, at this point in my retired life, I try not to let things keep me up at night, but the one environmental issue that I think we are going to all need to grapple with and figure out how to deal with is climate issues. I mean, I think some of your other guests probably have said that. Whatever you believe on why it’s happening. are changes happening. And it is impacting local governments, it’s impacting the state, it’s impacting the waterman. I mean, it’s, it’s something we’re going to have to, yeah, to come to come to terms with. I think in I am heartened by seeing the level of attention that that we’re getting to the resilience side, I have, I partners here that are experts and that sort of thing. And they seem heartened by at least it is his recognition. It’s It’s hard. It’s easier sometimes to whistle past the graveyard when it comes to that than do it because it’s an expensive problem. It’s very expensive and it’s complicated. Right. Right. I mean, you’ve got a bunch of people living in areas that are going to potentially be inundated with seawater. I mean, that’s, that’s, that is hard to grapple with. But you’re right. There are, there are a number of local governments or organizations that are really trying to take the next step forward to try to address that issue. What advice would you give young people who are either just starting out, like you said, or that are thinking about doing what you did so well for 30 years? Number one, do it. I mean, it’s hard, it’s frustrating, but the rewards are, I think the rewards are great. Personal rewards. not monetary rewards, but personal rewards are great. The other piece of advice I think the thing that helped me the most is listening to people, talking to people and finding a really good mentor. And that could be one or two depend, you know, one, two, ten, however, but don’t come in thinking, you know, everything. There’s a lot of people that have a lot of more than willing to help. I like it. On that note, Jennifer Fitzwater, thank you so much for coming on the show. It’s been a lot of fun. Thanks Brett, I appreciate it. Well that’s it for this episode. Thanks for listening to Water for Fighting. If you’re enjoying the show, please be sure to subscribe on whatever platform you use and don’t forget to leave a five star rating and review. You can follow the show on LinkedIn and Instagram at FLWaterpod and you can reach me directly at who and or what you’d like to know more about. Production for this podcast is by Lonely Fox Studios. Thanks to Carl Sworn for making the best of what he had to work with. And Dave Barfield for the amazing graphics and technical assistance. A very special thank you goes out to Bo Spring from the Bo Spring Band for giving permission to use his music for this podcast. The song is called Doing Work for Free. And you should check out the band live or wherever great music is sold. Join me next time for another conversation with someone who has helped shape water and environmental policy in the Sunshine State. Until then, your whiskey close and your water closer. 

In this episode, Brett sits down with the Northwest Florida Water Management District’s executive director – Lyle Seigler. They discuss Hurricane Michael recovery; springs restoration and protection efforts; the district’s relationship to the regulated community; and what happened to change a town in Walton County from the county seat to a trivia question.

To see tools used by the Northwest Florida Water Management District to track Hurricane Michael damage and recovery go here. https://nwfwater.com/water-resources/hurricane-michael/

To reach out to Lyle directly, email him at:  [email protected]

Our theme song is “Doing Work For Free”, by Bo Spring Band (Apple Music) (Spotify) (Pandora)

speaker:Welcome to Water For Fighting, where we discuss the past, present, and future of Water and Florida with the people who make it happen. I’m your host, Brett Cypher. I spent over 20 years working with and getting to know the people who made Water Their Life’s Work. And I created this podcast to allow you, the listener to get to know them as well. Before we get to today’s special guest, I want to give a shout out to podcast reviewers Erigon349 and Elizabeth Alia. Erigon, thanks for listening. I’ll keep working hard to bring good people and their wealth of experience to you. So stay tuned. And to Elizabeth, those folks out west are lucky to have such a brilliant attorney and professor and a learned from, but we miss you back so come see us soon. Now I wonder the conversation. I think you’re going to like today’s guest, Laugh Seaguller. Laugh is currently the executive director of the Northwest Florida Water Management District, but he also happens to be my dear friend. He’s a native of Walt County in the Panhandle, with his family being from the county’s original county seat, a place called Uchiana. He’s the son of a lifelong fishing game warden, and he’s dedicated his life to the entire career to public service and roles such as County Administrator for Walton County. However, he spent most of his career with the Florida Department of Transportation. Laal, what a unique pleasure it is to have a conversation with you today. Welcome my brother. It’s a pleasure to be with you, Brett. Thank you for the opportunity. Laal, do you say that you grew up in Uchiana or Diffuniax Pranks? Uchiana. Uchiana it is. We’ll hold true to the original settlement and the county seat. British Presbyterians and they settled there. Uchianna was the county seat beginning in 1845 and that was the year that Florida received at Statehood. Up until 1885 when the courthouse burned and it probably comes as no surprise to you being in Walden County, it was an act of arson. The county seat then moved to the Funiac Springs. My grandmother’s maiden name was McClean. And in 1847 he served as president of the Florida Senate. I love people hearing stories about these places in Florida. They probably don’t know much about everyone. I think that at least that lives in North Florida knows Diffini X Springs, but I bet they don’t. But you and Brad Drake are the only folks that I know of that talk about Uchiana and it being the original county seat outside of here. Brad Drake and now representative Shane Abbotna, That’s right. Well I mentioned in the introduction you’re the son of a fishing game officer right? Absolutely dad served 32 years with what was then the Florida Game and Fish Commission. He was also a Colonel in the Army National Guard right? Very much so he was very much the Colonel, love and discipline came hand in hand with dad. That’s what I was going to ask you. Tell me a little bit about your dad and growing up with officer, an army officer, and what that led to you in terms of your connection to the natural world around you as well. Well, what that looked like day to day there at home, he was very much accustomed to being in charge. So when he came through the door, Mother would always remind him that the orders stop here. And so he coined Mother as the Pentagon, and obviously I agreed. So whether we were working around homebreath in the field, hunting, or the way we were or occasionally on the water, that is still not only a passion for the natural world, but also a deep-seated commitment. And I’ll say an obligation to be a good steward of what God has entrusted us with. So out in public, I finally recall instances where someone would ask Dad about pond management or ask him about the river condition. And I would give close attention to every detail because I could envision myself being just like daddy. Back in that day with the Game and Fish Commission, when Dad started in 1967, you actually worked both sides of the agency, a law enforcement and fisheries management. So, with that being said, Dad was truly my hero and I’ll never be the godly example that he demonstrated in each step of my parents smile in the way I conduct myself both partially and professionally. Was part of that growing up with him and seeing him as that example. Was that did he instill that interest in water in the environment as well? Or was it more of a I want to be like the kernel? And so I better pay close attention. You said you were paying close attention. Was that the reason why or independently I mean, you had no choice, but you live outside here. Yes, to both, Brett. We’re so blessed with the resources that we have here in the Panhandle. And so I had a passion for everything outdoors from an early age, but also as you stated, I saw the success of the kernel of Dad. And obviously I wanted to be just like Dad. And so because of that, because of that example, service has really been an integral part of your life. Was that something that your parents encouraged in you or did that sink in? And I know I’m asking to similar questions, but they’re distinct in the way of you’re interested in the natural world and the other part is you’re interested in public service because you’ve been in public service for 30 years now, right? Absolutely. The Christian service values and foundation that both mom and dad Demonstrated they were very much godly parents and so that that level of service that expectation that was that was where that stemmed Often described the job of county administrator city manager as the worst jobs in government Sometimes I get a quiet nod and sometimes I just get a laugh from some you spent as the Walton County Administrator. I assume that you can attest to the fact that it is not the best job in government. Yes, Brett, you’ll probably get both a laugh and a nod from it when we talk about the County Administrator role. So I will substitute worst job with most challenging because politics and personalities and preferences and at times overwhelming. However, that role was a very fulfilling job as well. We were able to see immediate positive impacts in the lives of those that we served and loved. And so would that be and said whether it was health, welfare or safety, it was fulfilling to see those projects come to fruition. out your public service career. A lot of times it seems that folks get into public service and often you don’t get to see the end product. You’re governing but it doesn’t feel like you’re doing something tangible. So that must be a good feeling. I know it has been for me and the times when I got to enjoy roles that actually produce something tangible. County Administration to DOT to DEP to the water management district is it seems like all of those lend themselves to that that kind of tangible end product. Each of those positions of service lend to that and when we see the lives of those once again that we live around that we are related to and the folks that we love. When we see those lives impacted in a positive way and we can see those projects in place. That is a blessing. I want to get to the ones because you and I, obviously you and I have shared history at the Water Management District and quite a bit of it. I’ll get to that in a little bit, but I want to pause because I don’t know the one place where I don’t know much about what you did was when you went to DEP and that was in the Panama City office. West Florida office for DEP during that exact same time. What did your role entail out of the Panama City office there? When you and I met around Christmas of 2016 my current role was administrator for both Panama City and Tallahassee for DEP Northwest District. Sean Hamilton served as the Northwest Secretary Hamilton and so my focus was the regulated community and compliance but also heavy on the outreach side. I remember a specific conversation that Sean and I had and he requested that I look at strengthening existing relationships repairing broken relationships and creating new relationships within the Panhandle. When I met you and it was first we had a conversation on the phone that I recall. And then you came in and I think I knew within, you were having lunch, you were having Christmas lunch that day. And I came in and you and I sit there in the office and had a brief conversation. Yeah. And you said, hey, let’s move on. I think I knew within 45 seconds of talking to you that we needed to work together So that was probably one of the easiest decisions that are made. You’ve been a blessing to me, Brent. Let’s move from DEP. And now you’ve agreed to come to work at the district. You’re hired as the director of the Division of Regulatory Services. Quickly move you to Chief of Staff, because I can’t live without you. And now, the executive director. I don’t know the answer to this question. But share with our listeners what your general management philosophy has been because that’s why I like to begin with. Brett, you and I have worked together and we agree upon that leadership style and that is that of a servant leader. And when I say that, what comes to mind is active listening and awareness and commitment to growth and community building, all on a solid foundation of integrity and respect I am committed to demonstrating genuine love, care and concern to one of the most appreciable assets we have and that’s our team members. That’s the men and women out there each day doing the job. And you have what about 110, right? Are we still a little right around there? Yes, we have around 110 folks to manage the 16 counties. And I’m committed to them. I’m committed to the resource. They are by far the brightest and the best. I’ve said that many times. myself with the best of the best. And courage and faith are my core values, as you well know. Being clear is kind. I subscribe to addressing whatever the issue is directly. However doing so in a courteous and respectful and professional way. I’ve said before, I saw front in a strong back and that helps you to deal with the difficult issues, whatever in uncomfortable situations and conversations with focus. Let’s talk about that a bit. It’s one of the reasons why I think that folks in Northwest for are lucky to have you and that you’re lucky to have those 110 folks because you have a place that’s unique that you have 110 folks pulling in the same direction that care about the same thing. You have a phenomenal board but some people believe that government’s relationship to the regulated community part of what you have to do is still has a pretty significant regulatory function. But a lot of people believe that that relationship should be by its very nature adversarial. Why do you disagree with that? You explain who you are and I think that’s pretty clear. But how do you see your relationship with your responsibility to the law but also to service? and solutions stem from positive relationships. And yes, we’re going to hold true to the integrity, to the intent of the rule, but we’re also going to invest in the lives of those that we serve, and we’re going to be solution oriented. Let’s move forward to a bit to some of the most difficult moments that we had together at the Water Management District, and that you are still dealing with, in the moment. Let’s go back in time October 10th, 2018 Hurricane Michael comes and slams dead smack into the panhandle. It leveled everything in its path, tens of thousands of acres of district-owned and district managed property. I was driving through there, you and I were just talking before, we started recording about Camping last weekend. Pointing out to my daughter at still the the broken matchsticks of of trees strewn throughout this area. That’s always going to be with us, it seems. But tell me about some of the progress you’ve made and recovered the district’s part of these lands in this region. You did it so well in front of few weeks, tell us a little bit about that progress. Brett on October the 10th of 2018, Hurricane Michael impacted 87,130 acres of district land. That’s 41% of our holdings here in the Panhandle. As you stated, the overstory was decimated. The district worked closely with DEP and DEM to analyze the effects on floodplain changes and to identify debris removal for the waterways of the panhandle. During the past fiscal year, the district conducted Hurricane debris cleanup on 1800 acres and I’m talking about an Econphina Creek, Shippoala River, Appalachia-Cola River and we’ve repaired 12 miles of management roads. We’ve conducted just over 12,000 acres of prescribed burning. The district continues to remove hurricane debris from our impacted areas in this current physical year. We’ve cleaned up 1500 acres. The district also plans to, the district also plans to plant at least 550,000 long leaf pine trees on 750 acres during this physical year. prescribed fire to restore habitats to pre-Hurricane conditions. I am thankful to an amazing governor that is committed to and demonstrated what response and recovery looks like. As you and I have agreed upon and discussed many times, we have a passionate group of men and women that are committed to these efforts. Let me sidetrack you a bit from the hurricane itself. It’s a subset that I think a lot of people don’t realize how many trees, whether it’s from Hurricane Michael, but even in general, as part of your restoration strategy at the district, that includes a lot of lay management activities. One of those things includes planning of trees and the district plants about, I think on average, about a million pine trees a year. Is that still correct? That is correct. stone of our 20th million long leaf. Wow. It’s incredible. The things that that’s the small dedicated group can accomplish under these circumstances. But it also speaks to the support that you’ve gotten. You mentioned that from the governor to the secretary to the legislature, someone ever saying no when the district asked for help. And so that’s been huge. Absolutely. Everyone has been very cooperative and moving forward. We plan to finish these recovery efforts a year early. While we’re sitting, it didn’t unplanned, but you and I met in Jackson County administration office and the conference room I’ve sat in many times that you’ve sat in many times meeting with members of the Jackson County Commission, meeting with their extremely talented County Administrator, Willand Daniels. And it’s fitting because I wanted to talk a little bit about Springs Restoration, Springs Protection. It’s been a priority of the district. It’s been a significant priority of the district and it’s boarded for many years going back well over, well over a decade. and those landmark resources like we’ll call it spring, like Jackson Blue here. Here in Jackson County with Jackson Blue, to begin with, we’ve implemented 33 agriculture, BMP projects on over 7,500 irrigated acres. And since 2013, we’ve had 144 projects that’s been implemented with 83 unique producers and of the 144 projects, 138 of them have been completed on 70,000 acres. And that nitrate reduction is estimated to be over 225,000 pounds of total nitrogen. And so that is a success story by far. And that’s a year, right? We’re talking about that. That is annual. That’s right. Serious numbers. Serious numbers. You mentioned color springs, awesome resource. Those nitrate levels and what color springs continue to be near the TMDL of.35 milligrams per liter. 791 home connections to Central sewer have been completed to date and another 1200 home connections to Central sewer is planned We’ve connected 13 homes to advanced septic systems in those low density areas. It’s not serviced by Central sewer and another 107 are planned. We’ve completed 43 home connections to advanced septic systems to date. We’ve got a great partnership with Wacala County you say the word partnership. That was one of the things that I want to ask you. It’s something that I’ve that I’ve relied on in years past, but it seems like the ability to develop genuine partnerships has been one of the keys to real progress that that we’ve had over the years. I believe that’s still the case. You mentioned David Edwards of a color county. There are phenomenal County Administrator that are real partners. Will Andean was the Jackson County Commission working on these projects, the local farmers. Incredible, incredible partners. You have, I think is it, it’s, imagine it’s probably maybe close to, maybe even be more than 90% of every irrigated acre, those kinds of partnerships, these real partnerships with the folks that you’re working with is the key to the actual progress you’re saying in these two significant natural resources, right? I mean, do you agree? With spring’s protection, we see the statistics that we’ve spoken about, all our success stories, absolutely. I want to change our focus for a moment and look at the regulated community. Let’s look at permitting. For over 10 years, our permitting staff, and this is a result, all of what as a result of these partnerships, Brett, has been focused on improving efficiency and customer service. And when I say customer service, talking about pre-application meetings and outreach, and as a result, the permit processing times have been reduced up to 93%. And when I say that, this limits the funds that spent on the agency and increases funds communities for economic development. And to give an example, Brett with our consumptive use permitting the active processing time, the goal is fewer than 27 days, and our team here at the district has an annualized median of three days. And some people think that because of those numbers, the numbers are incredible and they’ve moved in that direction for years, Some people might look at that and assume that that means that you’re cut in corners. That’s not the case, is it? We are by no means cutting corners. We’re keeping with the intent and the integrity of the rule while clearly understanding who we serve. And that’s the taxpayers. That’s the constituents. We’re looking for a solution. Oh, absolutely. I think I used to describe it as you can’t. do this. Those dedicated engineers, environmental scientists, support staff, it’s impossible to do that in those time metrics if they don’t want to. You have to want to and they do. They’re real public servants. As you said, they get up in the morning thinking about serving What do they do that? It’s something else. You’re lucky man. It’s a way that you and I have worded it from the beginning, Brett, but it’s the way they’re hardwired and they are passionate about what they do. Wow. What professional accomplishment are you most proud of at this point? Is there an accomplishment there that you’re most proud of? Is it the service end in terms of regulatory services? elementary or just sound like I’m brushing the question off but it’s the impact that I’ve made in the lives of our Northwest district team and also holding true to the resource that we protect and preserve but it’s not a single event or a title. When I think back on that it’s more of a aha moment and that actually came when I was County Administrator. One evening we were having a public meeting down at Chalktah Beach, west of free port on State Road 20. The girls decided to make their way down with me. When I say girls I’m talking about my wife and and daughters and what was in it for them was probably a meal and for and for Taylor the youngest another trip to build a bear. And so as we as I fielded the questions that that evening and the meeting was loud and long we that we passed out to the public at most of our meetings and the question started with what do you like most about the county? Taylor, then in elementary school, picked up the questionnaire and wrote, only filled in the first two blanks. What do you like most about the county? And she said the administrator, Lyle Seagler, why do you value that about the county? are in this case person and she said because he listens and cares and Brett that was a aha moment so that was that was me stopping and realizing that hey it’s about investing in caring about loving supporting our team well if I’m being honest you’re my favorite part of Walton County as well so are you optimistic about the future of the environment in Florida you know optimistic about the future of the Florida environment. I’m optimistic, Brett, because I know the talent, the heart and the resilience of our people, and I see the commitment to be great stewards. I wholeheartedly believe and support our governor, his policy and his leadership for the environment. So that’s the core of my optimism. What if anything keeps you up at night regarding water and natural systems in Northwest Florida? I give each day my all. So nothing keeps up thanks to chewable melatonin. With that being said, I want to continue to work hard on these partnerships because being relational and being committed is what sets us apart. What advice would you give to young people who are just entering or have interest in entering public service? Was it that? Was it the service? I mean, it’s got to be about that. Well, when it comes to public service, you need to have a clear understanding and awareness of who serve the constituents, the taxpayers first and foremost. And yes, you need to be courteous and respectful and professional like I said before, but you also need to be consistent. You need to be predictable. You need to be reliable and give it your whole heart. Commit without question. Lyle, how can folks reach you if they want to learn more about what you’re up to and how you can help them? Brett, I’m a low tech guy, so my preference would be, you reach me by phone at 850-333. 3, 3, 2, 1, 1, 7. The email is lyall.sigler. SEIGLAR at nwfwater.com. And I’ll put all of those with the exception of your phone number on the episode note, so people can check it out there. There’s also a lot of great interactive things on the website. Thanks to you and your folks over there. at the district to see about Hurricane Recovery, Spring Restoration, all those things. Laugh Seaguller, thanks so much for coming on the show, brother. Thank you, brother, for having me. A huge thank you once again to Laugh Seaguller for being here. You’ve been listening to the Water for Fighting podcast. You can reach me at FLWaterPod at Gmail.com or on Twitter and Instagram at FLWaterPod with your comments and suggestions for who and or what you’d like to know more about. So please be sure to subscribe and leave a 5 star rating and review. Production in this podcast is by Lonely Fox Studios. Thanks to Carl Sorn for making the best of what he had to work with and a David Barfield for the amazing graphics and technical assistance. A very special thank you goes out to Bo’s Spring for the Bo’s Spring Band for giving permission to use his music for the podcast. The song is called Doin Work for Free and you should check out the band live or wherever great music is sold. I’m your host, Brett Siphers. Join me next time for another conversation with someone who has helped shape water policy in the Sunshine State. that, keep your whiskey close and your water closer.

In this episode, Brett talks with well-known environmental attorney and former DEP general counsel, Fred Aschauer. They discuss Florida’s U.S. Supreme Court fight to save the Apalachicola River and Bay; growing up between Florida and New York; and how joining a heavy metal band led to a music scholarship and a haircut. 

To learn more about Florida’s case against Georgia in the U.S. Supreme Court, head here.

First Special Master’s Report

Second Special Master’s Report

Florida’s Response to Second Report

More Resources on the case

To find out more about Fred’s environmental law practice.

To get in touch with Fred directly, email him at: [email protected]

Our theme song is “Doing Work For Free”, by Bo Spring Band (Apple Music) (Spotify) (Pandora)

Speaker 1 00:00:08 Welcome to Water for Fighting, where I discussed the past, present, and future of water in Florida with the people who make it happen. I’m your host, Brett Ciphers. I’ve spent over 20 years working with and getting to know the people who’ve made water, their life’s work, and I created this podcast to allow you, the listener, to get to know them as well. Today’s my pleasure to introduce former general counsel at the Florida Department of Environmental Protection and current environmental law attorney at the Lewis Longman and Walker law firm, Fred Ash Ier. Fred grew up in Long Island, New York, and Port Charlotte here in Florida where he graduated high school. He went to Edison Community College on a music scholarship. More on that later. Fred’s a veteran of the US Army and would eventually graduate with honors from the Florida State University College of Law. Let’s join that conversation in progress. You’re, you’re a bonafide, uh, Florida boy now you’ve got, for the record, a Florida State Seminoles Correct. Shirt on, um, go Noles, but you have roots in New York and also Charlotte County down south. Um, how long have you been in Tallahassee at this point? Speaker 2 00:01:10 Oh, um, since 1997. Okay. So I, I, my wife and I have lived in Tallahassee longer than I lived anywhere else. We came here after the army to, to, for me to go to Florida State, went to Florida State, um, finished my undergrad. I had two year degree when I got here from, um, Edison Community College, now Edison State College. Um, came up here, studied business, and then went to law school, and then we just stayed. Man, it’s, it’s a great place to raise children. I is. Uh, and when we, when I graduated law school, we had our, our first son, uh, first son, first child, and, um, he was like three years old and it just, I got an offer from that firm and it just made sense. Speaker 1 00:01:50 And you have two grown boys, right? Speaker 2 00:01:52 I do. I Speaker 1 00:01:53 Do. Um, and so they were, so you were here when, when you got both of them, correct? Speaker 2 00:01:59 Well, um, so, you know, my family’s uni, it’s unique. So my oldest is actually adopted, and we adopted him when he was almost 10. That’s, so Frederick was Frederick’s two years younger. Mm-hmm. . So when we adopted Fred Lee, yes. Frederick, Fred Lee, a lot of Fred’s. Yep. Frederick. Yes. He did not make fun of George Foreman in my house, . Um, so when we adopted Fred Lee, he was almost 10. He was nine, Frederick was seven. Mm-hmm. Um, he was, Fred Lee lived in Tampa at the time, so, okay. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:02:28 Tell me about growing up you, New York, Charlotte County. It’s a, it’s an old story. Uh, folks, you know, coming from somewhere else, you know, living here, but you kind of went a little bit of a back and Speaker 2 00:02:39 Forth to I did, I did. So, um, yeah, we moved to Charlotte County when I was seven. I was born on Long Island. Uh, I don’t, I honestly don’t remember much of that. I remember, you know, like living in an apartment, um, doing some fishing with my stepdad on Sundays. Speaker 1 00:02:56 Um, you need those fish. Did you? Speaker 2 00:02:58 I don’t know, know. I don’t I don’t remember if we did . Exactly. Um, so we moved to Charlotte County when I was seven. Um, and I lived there till I was 13. Then I, um, a couple years, a couple years before that, had met my biological father for the first time. So after sort of visiting with him a couple times back forth, uh, on a, what was at the time to be just a summer vacation with my biological father, I went up to New York and about halfway through called my mom and said, Hey, I’d live up to stay here. Speaker 1 00:03:35 Is that, I mean, not, I mean, the obvious awkwardness of having that conversation with your mom, but 13 years old is a rough age to move from one place to another, especially across the country. Speaker 2 00:03:49 So not really. Um, I mean, not, I, I, my mother meant the world to me, mother. My mother’s past my mother meant the world to me, but I, I was a 13 year old boy mm-hmm. . And, um, and you know, me, I’m a I’m, I can be a bit crazy and, uh, you know, sort of rambunctious. And that’s my dad. Mm-hmm. , and that’s my dad. Um, and so I saw that, you know, and I saw that personality, and I was 13 year old boy. My mom had divorced my stepdad for what, at that point had been a few years. And so I was, um, I, I guess I was sort of looking for, you know mm-hmm. that in my life. And, um, I lived with my dad until I was 16, and then he decided to move to Florida too. . Oh, there you go. So, so we, um, and that, that move was, um, it was, it was interesting. Speaker 2 00:04:42 My dad did not have a lot, and so we packed on everything that we had, he and I on a Greyhound, and we moved to Florida on a Greyhound, and I think it took us like four days to get to Charlotte County. Oh my goodness. From, from the Oh, yeah. Yeah. And we, we, we spent, we overnighted in like the Washington DC Greyhound, and I remember that. And it’s, it was that was not a safe place. But my dad, um, my dad and I, I, I think everyone feels this way about their dad. My dad was a Marine, he was, you know, black belt and like TaeKwonDo, wherever, and I just viewed him as a certified badass. And so I did, I I, I recognized it as an unsafe place, but I did not feel unsafe. Sure, sure. You know, so, Speaker 1 00:05:22 Um, you mentioned fishing and I ma I was making fun of the river there. It was, we’re a podcast about water here and the environment. So, and you mentioned fishing. Was that something that you grew up doing with your Speaker 2 00:05:34 Dad? It, no, actually only with my stepdad. Okay. Um, and so after he, um, and my mom divorced, I really didn’t fist much after that. And, and now I don’t have the patience for it. Speaker 1 00:05:45 , I hear you. I hear you. Um, I’m gonna read some names to you and you tell me what they have in common. Ronnie James dio, let me kill Mr. Cliff Burton John at Whistle Fred Ash Hour. Speaker 2 00:06:00 So, um, I actually only recognize a couple of them as Bass . Uh, I guess I did not know that I, I’m not a big deal fan, I guess I didn’t know that Ronnie James, the played bass in the band. Speaker 1 00:06:14 Um, maybe he wasn’t good at it. I don’t Speaker 2 00:06:16 Know. I’m assuming he does by the list. Um, so he definitely Speaker 1 00:06:20 Did . He could, Speaker 2 00:06:23 I dunno. Um, but yeah, they’re, they’re all, uh, myself included. Uh, well, I think they all, they’re all bass players, and a couple of them were heavy metal bass players, myself included. Speaker 1 00:06:33 Yeah. I mean, and some could be, you know, debatable, whether or not, you know, the who is, you know, I don’t think anybody would Speaker 2 00:06:39 Call it. Yeah, yeah. That’s what, yeah, I know. That’s why I qualified. But, but Metallica for sure, and that’s of, of the list of the list, he’s definitely, he was more of an idol. Speaker 1 00:06:47 So Motorheads not, Speaker 2 00:06:48 Not, no, no, no. I mean, it’s like Le me’s cool, but I just didn’t take him. Speaker 1 00:06:55 I hear you. Okay, fair enough. Um, I mean, I, I imagine the record sales speak for themselves between Metallica and Motorhead, so Yeah, Speaker 2 00:07:04 I, I’d say so. Close Speaker 1 00:07:05 That too. Um, but I really ask that because trying to follow your, your biography here, um, you know, across time. And so you actually go to school originally on a music scholarship, is that right? At, at Edison? Speaker 2 00:07:19 I did. At, at, that was my, so my first two years were at Edison Community College. Um, I, I bought a guitar when I was 17 or 18 years old. And, um, I was, you know, plucking out the strings in my bedroom and, and not doing very well at that. I was, I definitely was not going to teach myself how to play. Wow. Um, and at the time, I was hanging out with some folks who were in a band. They were in a band, uh, and they, like many bands in Charlotte County, they rented a storage unit and, you know, put all the eggshells, the egg cartons on the walls. And, um, and I would go hang out with them outside their storage unit. We’d listen to them play, just hang out and, uh, probably drink beer, although I don’t think I was of age at the time, but mm-hmm. . Yeah. So Speaker 1 00:08:08 Unfortunate. Speaker 2 00:08:09 Yeah. So bass players, bass players are not easy to find. And so the band was actually without a bass player. And they asked me a, after finding out that I had a guitar, and I was starting to learn that they offered to sell me a bass and speaker so I could practice with them under a condition, though. They, and it was the, and the condition actually led to me leaving the band. So they made their bed and they slept in it as well, . So they, they re they were like, look, you need to take lessons. We, you have to get good, or at least, you know, be able to keep time. And, and, but you need to do that quickly, so you need to take lessons. Um, and so I did, and I started taking lessons from this guy named Jay Hek, uh, on Pine Island. Speaker 2 00:08:56 So I would drive from Charlotte County down, go to Pine Island, take lessons with him there, and he was a, um, he was professional musician, uh, not like, you know, like a recording artist mm-hmm. . But, uh, he made his living playing music on the weekends in the local music scene and giving lessons. Um, and he played jazz music, and he started introducing me to, um, jazz and classical music. Um, and I really took an interest in it. And there’s a jazz bass named John Patagucci, who is, I mean, when I heard him, I was completely blown away by what he could do with a bass. And, um, so he started introducing me to Jazz and Classical, and I started to get interested in that. And then after only about six months, he said, Hey, why don’t you go, the, the local community college has a pretty good music program, and they offer scholarships. And I was like, okay. Um, you know, I was, I was young than Tom. I didn’t know about it. Right. So I agreed, and I went down and I tried out, and again, remember basis are hard to find right? Speaker 1 00:10:06 . Speaker 2 00:10:07 So I go down and, um, I, I do my little audition, and they gave me a scholarship. And so I started playing there, and within six months, I started actually making money, and I left that, I left the band because I wanted to pursue other music Speaker 1 00:10:21 Interests. And that’s the standup base at that point. Is that Speaker 2 00:10:24 Right? Right, right, right. Yeah. Wow. And if I ever picked it back up again, that’s what I would do. I would get a standup base. Speaker 1 00:10:29 Yeah. I mean, that’s, it is pretty cool. So obviously, uh, classically trained, uh, musician goes from music scholarship, uh, to the United States Army. Just how much time did it take them to cut all that hair of yours from your heavy metal days? Or did you, or did you still have your heavy metal hair at this point? Speaker 2 00:10:48 Um, no, I did not. So, um, that’s at some point I cut it off. I, I did have long hair. I had, um, I don’t know. So a a basis you left off was Jason Nutted, who replaced Cliff mm-hmm. . Yeah. And, uh, at the time, Jason had the sides of his head shaved, uh, basically a Mohawk. Right. The sides of his head, shaved top and, and, and, uh, back long. And I, I had that haircut, um, when I was playing in the band within my first year at Edison, I, I cut my hair and got a, you know, a quote unquote normal haircut. So whether it would’ve been long or short though, you know, I mean, you, you were, you were in process too. It doesn’t take that long to cut your Speaker 1 00:11:30 Hair. It does not. No. Yeah. They don’t, um, they don’t, uh, they don’t waste a lot of time. So you meet your lovely wife mm-hmm. , uh, while you’re in the Army in Germany, correct? Correct. And, and so you bring that plus the Army College Fund, I assume, and the GI Bill, uh, back home with you, you said something about studying bus. I know you went to law school. Did you start studying business at first? Speaker 2 00:11:53 I did. I did. I’m a pretty practical guy. Mm-hmm. , I think, you know, that we’ve been friends for a while. Um, and so at some point in the Army, my, my wife will tell you, she convinced me to go to law school, and that may very well be true, like in, you know, reconstructing it. I probably take more credit than I deserve. But, um, my wife, uh, was a big proponent of me going to law school, um, because I’m smart and I like to argue, like that’s a very common Speaker 1 00:12:23 Theme. So Yeah. If you, Speaker 2 00:12:25 Yes. Um, and so I knew, I mean, when I went to undergrad, I knew I wanted to go to law school. So undergrad, it was never, ever about a, an undergraduate degree. I, I really could not have cared what undergraduate degree Okay. That I studied. However, I’m practical. And I said, if the law, if I don’t get in or if law doesn’t work out, I want a degree that I think is useful. So I studied finance. Speaker 1 00:12:46 That’s very practical. I assumed you lost a bet when you said you wanted to go to law school after, but, uh, but no, I suppose a lot of folks reach a point when they’re pretty young and they’re teenagers and say, I wanna be, I want to go be an attorney. But yours was as you’re in undergrad, is that what you’re Speaker 2 00:13:05 Saying? No, it was when I was in the Army when Speaker 1 00:13:07 The arm, Speaker 2 00:13:07 Oh, sorry. Yeah, yeah. When I was in the Army. So the, the undergraduate degree was a means to an end. Okay. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:13:12 When you and I met you were the general counsel at D E P and you were running the state’s lawsuit for the department, correct. For against Georgia and the US Supreme Corps, I believe it’s original action 142, if I remember correctly. Uh, I have trouble to this day thinking about this case objectively, but I wanted to have you in, I wanted you to talk a little bit about that, but, um, but I’d like, are you willing to discuss Florida’s basis for the case? A little bit of kind of level setting for folks that don’t know much about it? Speaker 2 00:13:45 Yeah, absolutely. I, I’m with you. Uh, as far as objectivity goes, so full disclaimer, I do not see the case objectively . Right? Like, as a lawyer, you’re supposed to see both sides, right. But I was ultimately the state of Florida, you know, through the governor’s office, through, uh, sec, the Secretary John Stevenson at the time is really sort of behind the, the, the, the policy, the why for the case, right? I’m, as the general counsel sort of making sure the train stay on time, if you will, making sure the state’s getting what it, what it pays for, right? Right. Make testing the lawyers, I mean, these are all brilliant lawyers. Latham Watkins was the law firm represented the state of Florida, you know, so these are all Harvard educated, Yale educated, um, lawyers. And so, um, I, mine was not really the why, but mine was keep going and, and keep them in line and stuff like that, and that, so that was, that was my responsibility. So I, I never, I never approached the case as the lawyer responsible. I was sort of like, as a manager of the case. Speaker 1 00:14:50 Sure, Speaker 2 00:14:51 Sure. And, and maybe because of that, I don’t have the same level of objectivity that I could have. Although, I will tell you this, I have never, ever, and I mean, once tried a case where it went at the time it went to hearing or trial, depending upon whether it was an administrative or a civil action, where I wasn’t 100% convinced that I was gonna beat the tar out of the other side. And it doesn’t always work out that way. And it shouldn’t. But you, you know, as a lawyer, you have to zealously advocate and Speaker 1 00:15:19 So, right. And so, I mean, well then allow me then to level set a little bit then on, on the case. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:15:26 You’re gonna get it wrong, but go ahead. Speaker 1 00:15:27 I am going, I’m almost certainly going to get, uh, get it wrong. I’m gonna, I’m gonna talk to, I’m gonna talk about it from a strictly narrative sense, which is Florida as well as Georgia has experienced droughts over the years. Uh, some of those droughts have been really bad when you look at, uh, 2011, 2012, uh, but there have been worse droughts, like in 19 54, 19 55, you have 120 mile river that needs to have quantities of water in order to make sure that the salinity doesn’t get too high in the Appalachia Cola Bay. The use increasing use of that water in exponential terms in the state of Georgia, has caused less of that water to come across the Georgia border, into the Appalachia Cola River in Florida, especially at the time when the time it’s needed most, which is during, during a drought or during the dry season, to the point where the days in which there was not enough water, where there was less than, say, 6,000 cubic feet per second of water making it, even though droughts had been worse, rain days had been fewer in the fifties and in the yachts, yet it was worse somehow to the point where the actual fishery shut down in, uh, in 2012. Speaker 1 00:16:48 Yeah. How’s that Speaker 2 00:16:50 From an a non-objective or perspective? That’s right. Uh, the Supreme Court doesn’t see it that way. Speaker 1 00:16:57 I know they don’t Speaker 2 00:16:59 and the, and, and special, the special Master, um, Kelly, so the second one, he didn’t see it that way either. Um, I think Special Master Lancaster did, um, but he ultimately found that he couldn’t award Florida the relief it was seeking, because the United States Army Corps wasn’t a party to the lawsuit. And so there’s this, there’s this principle in the law failure to join an indispensable party. And that means, in order for things to be fair, everybody who’s involved in this lawsuit, or who should be, sorry, everyone who should be involved in lawsuit needs to be a party to lawsuit. And if they are not, and they cannot be forced to be so, and the United States cannot be forced to do so, sovereign immunity, right? Mm-hmm. , then he felt he could not issue a decree that would give Florida more water in the Apalachicola River, because the Army Corps controls the flow of water on the Chattahoochee, thanks to five reservoirs and five dams, um, two of which are run of the river, three of which are actually engineered. Speaker 2 00:17:58 And they, and they hold back water. Can I go back though? Yeah. Because I, I, and it’s been a number of years because this has been a while now, but I’ve spoken, presented it on Florida versus Georgia at, you know, chamber Rotary No. To non-lawyers and people who aren’t interested in, in water, something that they all founded. Very interesting is, is, is how we got there. And so I’d like to tell everybody what an original action is. Yeah. So, um, so Florida in 2013 sued the state of Georgia in what we call an original action. The Supreme Court has original jurisdiction, so that’s trial court level jurisdiction to hear cases with ambassadors and others, and states. So when a state sues a state, they get to bring that action before the United States Supreme Court, and we call it an original action. The reason that that exists in our constitution, we have to remember, is the states were their own sovereigns at, at one point, right? Speaker 2 00:19:01 Mm-hmm. , and they gave up sovereignty, they gave up aspects of their sovereignty to the federal government, and the federal government recognized that in doing so, the states needed some avenue when they had an issue between the states, right. An issue that that needs to be resolved, because prior to an original action, how they might have resolved that would’ve been armed conflict. Right? The militias in Georgia and the militias in Florida would have thought, and maybe if we had that today, we would’ve gotten a different result in Florida versus Georgia. But that is why the original action exists, and that is how it got started. Speaker 1 00:19:38 And to your point, going back to e even before that, it wasn’t one day, uh, governor Scott wakes up and says, Hey, let’s go Sue Georgia. Right. Uh, it, it, I think the, I guess the, the closest, um, really tipping off point is probably, what, 1997? You try to come up with a compact between these three states, correct? Speaker 2 00:19:59 I, I’m gonna go back to 1990. Okay. Actually, so Alabama sued the core over the course decision to allow more potable water, more consumption out on the Chattahoochee River. And so, you know, you know this, we call it the ACF Basin, right? It’s the Alanche Cola, Chattahoochee and Flint River Basin. Speaker 1 00:20:19 For folks not familiar with the Chattahoochee, it’s the one that ends up forming the border Speaker 2 00:20:23 Between It does, yeah. Uh, Speaker 1 00:20:25 It does Georgia and Alabama. Right. Speaker 2 00:20:26 Well, and so let’s, I guess draw the picture then. So the Huci starts north of Atlanta, flows in a southwest direction, and then at times forms the border, as you just said, between, uh, Georgia and Alabama, and then enters into Lake Seminole. Mm-hmm. , which sits on the Florida Georgia line. Right. The Flint River starts south of Atlanta, flows again, southwesterly, but through mostly agricultural land to Lake Seminole. The, at that point, the confluence of those two rivers, lake Seminole on the south side of it, outflows Appalachia Cola River. So the waters of that basin, the ACF basin, are flowing from Georgia down south into the Lake Seminole, and then down into the Appalachia Cola River. So that’s the ACF basin. And, and there have been lawsuits regarding the water and the use of that water and the operation of the cores, engineered structures on the Chattahoochee dating back to 1990. Speaker 1 00:21:24 And so, but moving through that, as you say, so if you start in 1990, you start with the Tented compact, um, you know, from 97, moving into the very earliest of s um, with, uh, governor Bush, it really, I mean, it set a table for a lack of trusts between Florida, Alabama, and, and Georgia, most specifically Florida and Alabama. And probably some of the other way around, if I’m, if I’m being fair, which I won’t be. Um, yeah. But, but then you get to, as you know, as you say, uh, there’s only the last recourse is the original action. So talk about how, talk about the structure. So pe if people don’t know how that went down, um, what happens once you, once you decide you’re suing another state in the US Supreme Speaker 2 00:22:12 Court? Well, so that’s a, that’s a broad question. Sorry. In this case, in this case, so Florida and Georgia are what they call riparian states. Mm-hmm. , so the listeners of this podcast probably know that, but when I would talk about this out in the chamber there, and so you have, uh, riparian right? States and then out west, and this actually later factors into one of my concerns when they appointed the special master mm-hmm. , second time out west, it’s prior appropriation first and right. First and first, and sorry, first in time, first and right. So because Florida and Georgia are riparian rights states, you each get an equa, you get an equitable use of the water that you share. So this basin, we share this basin with Georgia. And so Florida asked for what they call an equitable apportionment of the waters of the ACF basin. Speaker 2 00:23:03 Um, and that, and, and the, the allegations were that there was, uh, you know, too much consumption, uh, in the Chattahoochee that, uh, and too much consumption in the Flint River mm-hmm. . Um, and there is, and we talked about this and you had talked about there were droughts in the fifties. Uh, you know, that’s the very, so, but in between the fifties and, and, you know, the 20 12, 20 13, the, the consumption by Georgia in that Flint Basin beginning in 1970 is a, an exhibit. Yep. Um, skyrockets. Yes. I mean, absolutely skyrockets and Georgia’s, Georgia’s position on its use of the waters in the Flint and Chattahoochee River was that they could practically and politically do whatever they wanted with it, harm to Florida be damned. Now, that is not what he said, but, you know, so that’s my take on it, Speaker 1 00:23:56 Operatively. That’s what, that’s what’s happened. I mean, and to the point where one could even say that they did that in cutting off their, their own noses as well. In some cases, you look at some of these water bodies and creeks on, in the Flint basins especially, that were literally pumped dry. They went from, say, a few hundred cfs or 150 cfs, or even few, you know, less, um, to single digits or zero, um, what was it, uh, spring Creek that was literally Yeah. Speaker 2 00:24:24 Stopped flowing. Right. And I, and, and, you know, and, and I’ve tried to sort of refresh my recollection on this case, but yeah, I mean, you and I spent weeks and you spent, what, five weeks in Portland? Speaker 1 00:24:37 I seemed like it, I think it’s probably closer to four, three Speaker 2 00:24:40 Or, or four of it. Okay. I spent two weeks, you know, and months living the case. And, you know, there was Yes, thousands, thousands of page and tons of experts that testified. So, uh, my memory serves me that, um, Georgia basically confessed, like, because they’re equivalent of d e p, department of Environmental Protection, said, we’re pumping the Flint River dry. Right. AG use is pumping the Flint River dry, as you might expect. Farm and agriculture in Georgia, southwest Georgia has a, a, a good bit of political sway. And so it is my belief, I think the team, although it wasn’t proven, I think the team probably also believed that it, the Flint River was always gonna be a problem because Georgia didn’t have the political will. I know. They were, they were, and, and you, you can probably speak to this better than I, because your testimony was, was aimed at the comparison of what we do in Florida for, for agricultural use. Right. As compared to what they do. Right. So I know that they, they, they might argue they put some handcuffs on their farmers, but they did not. Speaker 1 00:25:45 No. They, they didn’t. And that was the big, um, that was really the big dis difference in, in, in my eyes, is I know that we have, there’ve been many things related to water use, um, water resources, the environment where we’ve made our fair, you know, share of mistakes in Florida, uh, Northwest Florida, and the management of the resources surrounding the Appal Cola River basin is not one of those mistakes. Uh, the way that the district reserved flow from the river itself, the way that whether it be the state, federal, or other entities had preserved huge numbers of acres of this basin to protect it from impacts the number of, the amount of water used, uh, in total, um, I’m trying to remember how a hydrologist explained it to me from the Water Management District, and it was, I believe, uh, Chris Barrio says this to me. Speaker 1 00:26:46 He says, the amount of total use by Florida in the ACF basin wouldn’t even show up. It’s, it’s within the margin of error of the instruments used to measure the flow in the river. That’s how tiny it is. Right. And you’re look, and, and even with that, and it was 32, we went from 32 million gallons of water a day, used total to about 28 million gallons of water a day in, in terms of agriculture. So that’s a 25% decrease. In my mind, that’s what we were looking for, was how is it that you can’t, you don’t, you don’t have to spend a whole bunch of money. You don’t have to stop farming. We didn’t ask a single farmer in northwest Florida to stop farming. What we’re asking is to do the same thing that, that we would do. And that’s, that’s the part that seemed, I just couldn’t, I couldn’t wrap my head around. It was what, you know, why we couldn’t ask them to do Speaker 2 00:27:42 That? So, um, as a lawyer, we are prone to use Latin, uh, , I think, I think we perhaps incorrectly believe it makes us appear smart. Yeah. So there’s this principle in the law. It’s called race ips, a lo quitter. And it, and it stands for the think speaks for itself. Now, go back to Professor Erhardt, Florida State College law, um, who is in, in the, in the evidence world. He is the leader in how Florida shapes its evidence code and, and how it, and I mean the Supreme Court looks to his treatise on evidence, but he taught, uh, also taught torts. And I took, uh, first year torts with him. And I forget the, in the case we were talking about this case where it’s a little flower mill and the person wakes up, uh, sort of, you know, surprised covered in flower, and there’s the remnants of the, of a flower barrel next to them, right? Speaker 2 00:28:36 Mm-hmm. , it’s clear what happened. The flower barrel fell from the second floor, you know, uh, of the warehouse hit, the person br shattered and left the person covered in flower. They, they have no memory of that. Ter the thing speaks for itself. That’s what you’re getting at. Mm-hmm. . Right? The, how can you not conclude that Florida is suffering harm from the reduction of water flow across or through Lake Seminole, across the Woodruff Dam, when one of the sources of water for the Apalach Cola, the Flint River, is literally pumped dry. And so it’s sort of, the thing speaks for itself. The problem is, is that the Supreme Court, right. Didn’t, you know, they wanted more and, um, in an original action such as this, the standard for Florida and Florida brought the case. So, so Florida had the affirmative mm-hmm. responsibility to prove its case, which, and the standard here is clear and convincing evidence. Speaker 2 00:29:41 And that’s a high standard in, in the sort of hierarchy of standards of proof in the law. It is the one that is below beyond a reasonable doubt, right? Yeah. So the standard we send people to jail for this is below that. And so the Supreme Court said, , yes, there is this evidence that Georgia has over pumped the Flint. Yes, there is evidence that there was a collapse of the Apalach Cola Bay, and that that collapse had a dramatic effect on the, on the industry in the oyster industry. But it was Florida’s responsibility to prove that it was Georgia that caused that harm. And they point to a couple things. One of which was after the oil spill, the BP oil spill, Florida allowed what the United States Supreme Court with the Special Master, special Master Kelly said, what? Florida, and the way the Supreme Court looked at it, the over harvesting of the Apalach Cola, the Bay, I mean, they said that to the extent there was harm, that harm was brought on by Florida because they allowed over-harvesting of the Bay. Speaker 2 00:30:46 And they didn’t, they didn’t adequately re shell afterwards. So as you know, in order for there to be harvest, there has to be the, the oysters need something to affix to and grow. And they do that in these beds of shell, you know, and so they, Supreme Court said they failed to prove that it wasn’t those things because Georgia pointed to them. They also said that, um, and beyond that, we do not believe Florida proved that the change in the salinity wasn’t from something other than Georgia’s consumption, whether it was climactic conditions or things like that. And they pointed to certain, certain areas of the Bay that even during this drought, even during this higher salinity still were productive. In fact, product productivity went up Speaker 1 00:31:32 Just to be, just to be a pain in the neck. You, all of those things that you just mentioned are true. But all of those things are in terms of a thing that someone said, but that someone is Judge Kelly. Right. Not Judge Lancaster Speaker 2 00:31:44 Back to how an original action is decided. So the Supreme Court, the nine of them do not sit up there at the bench and take evidence. Mm-hmm. , that’s not what they do. That is not how we want the Justices of the United States Supreme Court to spend their time five weeks in the bankruptcy court in Portland, Maine. Right? Yes. So they appoint a special master to oversee the proceedings, to conduct, to allow the parties to conduct discovery, to have a hearing, and then to make a report to the United States Supreme Court. And then the United States Supreme Court will take that report, and then the parties will brief on that report why the special er got it right or wrong. And the Supreme Court will hear that in oral argument like they do for cases that come before them in their appellate jurisdiction. So it is a combination. The things I said are a combination of, um, the Special, special Master Kelly, but then the United States Supreme Court, cuz once they issue their opinion Yeah. You know, they’re sort of, they, they adopted his rationale. They found his rationale to be convincing. I Speaker 1 00:32:53 Just, I just found it to be dumbfounding, given that the, the person hearing the trial was the Special Master Lancaster. It goes to oral arguments. The Supreme Court sends it back, says, everyone answer this question. And then it’s just, Hey, special Master Kelly’s going to say, I’m gonna talk about all these other things that have, we’re outside the purview of the instructions I got from the Supreme Court, and they’re gonna take this new thing and come up with a, come up with a decision in, in Georgia’s favor. It just felt like a kick in the gut in that regard. And it also felt like, and you tell maybe that’s the more important thing now, is, and this is again layman, I don’t speak Latin, I didn’t go to Yale or Harvard, but it sounded like Judge Kelly was essentially writing Georgia blank check on water use from that point on. Is that a fair characterization? Speaker 2 00:33:45 No. So the, so I, you know, I understand how you, I understand how you get to that, but he doesn’t say that Georgia never could, um, use so much water that they would be taking in, uh, uh, more than they’re entitled to under, you know, the theory under the, under the principles of equity that are embraced by riparian states. Um, he doesn’t say that. He says that you had an obligation Florida to prove your case and you didn’t. And that’s different. And I, I understand why you put it that way, because, so this is, this is this from the Special Master, special Master Lancaster’s report. He says, the facts presented at trial demonstrate the gravity of the dispute between Florida and Georgia as the evidentiary hearing made clear Florida points to real harm. And at the very least, likely misuse of resources by Georgia. He said, uh, he goes on to say there is little question that Florida has suffered harm from, decreased flows in the river. And this is what I messed up earlier, but I’ll, I’ll read the quote from him, from his report. Cuz when I read this, I kind of fist pumped, you know, , uh, and he said, uh, and then I got to the end and I realized he wasn’t gonna go Florida or anything Speaker 1 00:35:02 . Speaker 2 00:35:03 He said, that’s right. He said, uh, that’s probably not true. Knowing me, I probably jumped to the conclusion, read it and then said, oh, how did we get here? Mm-hmm. , he said, Georgia’s position practically, politically and legally can be summarized as follows. Georgia’s agricultural water use should be subject to no limitations regardless of the long term consequences for the Mason. He says it much better than I said it earlier, you know, that those were his findings. So Brad, I understand why you say Special Master Kelly is cutting, uh, Georgia blank check on its use of water and the AC and the ACF basin. But that’s, that’s not what he says. He says, Florida, you didn’t do your job so Speaker 1 00:35:45 Well. Well, that brings me to something else that I wanted to ask you because looking back, I mean, hindsight’s always crystal clear. I’m not positive that’s the case in when it comes to the Florida v Georgia, but in the moment, and still to this day, I believe that, and I think you do too, and I think you’ve already said it, that the Bay in those communities were worth fighting for. Um, but a lot of folks in the middle of that, or when we got it, was remanded back to Special Master Kelly that this is a giant waste of time. It’s a giant waste of money. Um, why are we doing this? Who are these fancy New York DC attorneys? And I know that you, an you had to answer these questions yourself as you, as you described, your, um, your most important role was case management, uh, in terms of all of these attorneys. Would you, would you do it the same way again if you had to do it over? Speaker 2 00:36:47 You said that the community is worth fighting for, the community is worth fighting for. And Florida, Georgia, and Alabama had been fighting over water for a long time, um, and those lawsuits did not produce, you know, an adequate outcome, an acceptable outcome for the state of Florida. Sure. Uh, you know, and I believe Governor Scott’s exact words is that basically Georgia has not been negotiating in f good faith. And actually I believe that our, our legal team proved that in, in the fir in Speaker 1 00:37:21 The hearing in discovery. Right. I mean, they, it was the first time, it was the first time anyone was subject to discovery. Correct. Speaker 2 00:37:27 Right. So they, uh, I believe they, they did, they proved that. So, while Georgia is telling Florida one thing, right, on one hand, you know, with regards to negotiations to try and come up with an equitable apportionment or a process for an equitable apportionment, they’re on the other hand basically saying, you know, pump as much as you want, pump as much as you want. Right. So I I I do believe they were worth fighting for and I thought we were right to do it at the time. And yes, I had some very uncomfortable conversations because it wasn’t just anybody, it was a then speaker of the house. That’s right. That was quite upset at the money Yes. That Florida was spending on lawyers in the case, the news, the news never caught on to exactly how much Georgia was spending on this lawsuit. And so they were making comparisons between what Georgia and what Florida was spending on the lawsuit. And they were reporting on only one pot of money that Georgia was tapping into. Hmm. So Georgia was funding this lawsuit from the governor’s office and from, from the ags office. Mm. And nobody caught onto that. And so there was a point in time where Florida was, I don’t know, in the fifties, millions of dollars Right. That they had spent on lawyers and Georgia was closing in on a hundred, but because they were only ever reporting on one pot of money, it never got out. And so Speaker 1 00:38:55 I didn’t, I didn’t know that. I mean, I, Speaker 2 00:38:57 No, and that’s something I’ve held very close to the vest because I, for reasons I’m not gonna get into, but that they were reporting on. Hmm. They only one pot of money Georgia, far, far, far outspent the state of Florida on this lawsuit. I don’t know that if that would’ve mattered to the speaker. Mm-hmm. , he did not like that we were spending that much money and for the people who were questioning it then, and the people who will question it now, you know, they will, they, they could do things like take the population of Appalachia Cola, you know, divide the money and and spread it out and say that would’ve been a better use of those funds. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:39:34 I, I think that’s, I mean, in a way I think that, that that’s fair to ask those hypotheticals. But it was ne, and I don’t think it was for you, and it never was for me, for me it was, this is the wrong thing that is happening, um, in my mind there was, there was enough, a real and anecdotal evidence to, to show that. And it was, why is a person who tongs oysters in Appalachia Cola Bay, why is their living that they’ve made for generations going back to the 18 hundreds, why is how they earn a living? Why is their, their life worth less than anyone else’s in that regard? And so yeah, it’s ex it’s expensive. We do a lot of things. A as you, you and I both know in Florida that are expensive that people could put question, I still think that it’s worth it. I understand the question of how much money you’re talking Speaker 2 00:40:26 About. I’m gonna be a little bit more flippant than you were. Why is the livelihood of the men and women in the apalach obey who go out there and because of regulation, hand harvest, you know, these oysters, um, why is their livelihood valued less than the ability of someone on Lake Lanier to to navigate their jet ski off of their dock? And, and, and someone Speaker 1 00:40:53 I’ve said that in conversation, but I I expect that, uh, that you’d break it out today. So I’m proud of you. Speaker 2 00:40:59 Why not? Speaker 1 00:41:00 I’m proud of you. It’s true, but it’s true. Right. I wanna hear about what you’re up to now. It’s like, but let’s spend a second. That’s what, in terms of the operation of Lake Lanier, uh, and the Beauford Dam that controls the water coming up. Cuz there are other, you know, and and you mentioned ’em earlier, there are other dams, uh, some of them are, you know, controlled dams, some of them are running on the river lake. Lanier has a lot of water in Speaker 2 00:41:23 It. It does. Speaker 1 00:41:25 And there’s a lot of extra water in it that, that was discussed in terms of when you go into drought operation, that drought operation where they start, start cutting back quantities seems to coincide coincidentally with the elevation of a lot of people’s docks Yeah. On Lake Lanier. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:41:43 So, uh, lake Lanier, the core has, when the core, it’s, it’s not just the Chattahoochee the core runs a, you know Sure. They run dams all over the country and, and they store water all over the country and they store water according to, uh, operating protocols. Mm-hmm. , you know, um, and in this case, I think Lanier, one of the, one of the, um, purposes of Theier water is consumption, but another is recreation too, if I’m not mistaken. Yes. So, you know, that was part of Speaker 1 00:42:14 It. The recreation being one of the, one of the, the statutory allowances on on the lake outweighs tupelo trees. It outweighs, uh, inver, you know, invertebrates and mollusk along the river. And it outweighs human beings that are just trying to, to make a living down there. I Speaker 2 00:42:34 Hear you. But, but, so let’s go back to did Special Master. Yes. Uh, Perry write a blank check. No, because he doesn’t say that. Right. He doesn’t say that Florida, you could ultimately prove that those things that they, they, they matter and they, they are entitled to water. Um, and he just said, you didn’t, you didn’t convince me that Georgia Yeah. Was the cause of it. You know? Speaker 1 00:43:00 So you, so let’s move past d e p Speaker 2 00:43:02 . All right. , Speaker 1 00:43:03 Because you’ve been, uh, when, when did you leave the department? What year was, I Speaker 2 00:43:07 Can’t remember. 2017. So Speaker 1 00:43:08 2017. Correct. So we’re going on six years outside. Uh, you’re working now for very well-known, well-respected environmental practice. Uh, tell me about the day in the life of an environmental attorney on the outside. Now I assume it’s much like a, a Grisham novel. Speaker 2 00:43:29 Yeah. Um, with a little bit of law and order thrown in there. Sure. With a little bit of a few good men. Right. And Aaron Brockovich too. , Speaker 1 00:43:40 Of course. Speaker 2 00:43:42 Um, the practice law is nothing like what you see in tv. It’s nothing like what you see on TV unless you watch actual documentaries on, you know, like criminal prosecution or something like that. Right. Um, it is a, uh, a, a good bit of time, uh, reading, right? Mm-hmm. , um, even at where e e even now in my position, I, I spend a lot of time reading. Um, it is a good bit of time, uh, strategizing, right. Thinking about a problem, thinking it through, coming up with, uh, a solution to the problem. Um, and if you’re in litigation, then there are rules that we play by in litigation. And so you’re, you know, you have to, um, adhere by those rules. Um, it is good bit of time meeting just like everyone else. Everybody. Um, and then the fun stuff. Hmm. The things that, you know, you actually see on tv, the, you know, the oral arguments in court and the, the, uh, the depositions and the trials, at least with what I do, um, that’s, that’s a smaller per a significantly smaller percentage of your time Yeah. Than the Speaker 1 00:44:54 Other things. What’s, uh, for the, for those studying up for their LSATs right now, um, what percentage is that of your total, of your total work? The, the super exciting part? I think you like, you like the, the understanding you like the, the research and, and the knowing and the finding out. Yeah. It’s like, but it’s not, you Speaker 2 00:45:15 Know, so I do cases that are measured in days, but I do cases that are measured in weeks too. And so I could, in a year, when you look at depositions and hearings and all that, I could spend one to two months worth of time, uh, doing those things, you know, doing depositions, doing final hearings and things like that. Um, that could be one or two final hearings because they’re each two weeks long or one of ’em is three weeks and one of ’em is one week or one of ’em is four weeks. And one of ’em, one of ’em is a day. You know, cause I’ve the number of times that, you know, the number of, and I’ll just call them all trials, right? In, in the administrative world, it’s called the final hearing in circuit courts called the trial. But I’m just gonna call them all trials cuz the truth is they look and feel very similar. Speaker 2 00:46:04 There are dis there are certainly differences, but they look and feel the same. I might end up doing one or two trials a year, but because of the, um, the nature of my practice, I could spend three weeks in ti in court doing that. Whereas a, um, a public defender might go to court, um, 17 times, but 12 of them were half day trials. Mm-hmm. or one day trials or, you know, and so the, the time that they’re going to court is less than mine. But they get to say I had 17 trials this year. Right, right. You know, Speaker 1 00:46:37 What accomplishment are you most proud of? I could be professionally and personally, whatever you want to, however you wanna frame it. If you wanna do one of each, that’s cool too. Speaker 2 00:46:46 Well, you know, it would have to be the personally would have to be raising my boys with my wife. Um, you know, our oldest was in foster care. Mm-hmm. . So our oldest, um, had a really hard life before he joined us. Uh, he was in third grade, he’d been left behind. Hopefully he’ll never hear this. Cuz he’d be like, dad, why, why? Yeah. Putting all my business Speaker 1 00:47:09 Out there, , I think you’re safe there, , right? Speaker 2 00:47:11 Yes, that’s true. Speaker 1 00:47:14 Um, Speaker 2 00:47:14 So he, uh, had a really, really hard life before he joined us. Um, he joined us when he was in third grade. Like I said, he’d been left behind and he couldn’t read, could not read. And when my wife and I went to pick him up, when we finally got, um, we, we went through the process of adopting him out of the system. And by the way, the state does not make that easy. And I get it, but also shame on them. Um, is it easier now? I don’t know because this is 15 years ago for us. Right. So we went and picked him up and he was in a class with young boys and girls who had severe physical and mental disabilities. They were challenged, all of them. And that’s not our son. That’s not our son. But the system had given up on him. Speaker 2 00:48:01 Hmm. So, um, he joined us in third grade, uh, failed the, um, what’s the aptitude test? They give the kids in school? I forget now. I think it’s the FCA fails. The fcat in the third, in third grade, in your third and 10th grade years, if you fail the fcat, you get left behind. Right. Right. So they were going to leave him behind and they would’ve failed him. He would’ve then have been fail. He would’ve been now two years behind. So our old, our oldest is, is African American. Um, and the statistics on him dropping outta school goes through the roof. Mm-hmm. with that second failure. Yeah. Right. The statistics for him potentially going to jail, climb dramatically. Yeah. If they fail him. So my wife and I fought tooth and nail with the state, with the board, with the, with the school board to get them to socially promote him. Speaker 2 00:49:00 It’s permissible for them to say, okay, there are other reasons why we’re not gonna hold this child back. And we were, and I do not, I’m not one of those lawyers who walks around, I’m a lawyer, look at me, I’m a lawyer, I’ll sue. I, it was the, it was perhaps the one and only time in my personal life right. Where I said, you need to understand what I do. I am going to bring a law. I’m gonna sue you because I can’t let this happen to my son. Mm-hmm. , we get close to a point where we’re about to sue and we get a decision that they’re gonna socially promote him. Mm-hmm. , uh, we told them during this process, if you do this when he leaves this elementary school, he will be on grade level and this child will succeed. And when he left elementary school, he was on grade level. Speaker 2 00:49:44 He still needed remedial help, but he was on grade level and over the next several years, still a lot of time, patience in love. He graduates high school and he is in the United States Navy now. So that, you know that. And then my youngest too, um, you know, raising him Now he of course did not have to. He had a, a very, um, you know, he was, he was, uh, had a very, very good upbringing. He never was exposed to those things, but, you know, raising kids, it does, it doesn’t matter. You know. Yeah. They could turn out, you know, in ways you would wish they wouldn’t. And he is about two. He did three years in college, but he decided he wanted to study, um, aviation maintenance. And he and I are going to mobile this Saturday for him to take one part of his exam so he can get his license to fix airplanes. Nice, nice. So that’s definitely, so those, I mean that and that trumps anything I’ve done professionally quite candidly. Speaker 1 00:50:40 Yeah, no doubt. Uh, but speaking of, uh, water in the environment, are you optimistic about the future of the environment in Florida? Speaker 2 00:50:51 I, I am. I am. Um, Speaker 2 00:50:57 But not because of you or your, or, or, or or Brian Armstrong or, but, uh, because of the people Yeah. Or the state of Florida. Right. So the people of the state of Florida, um, they, they get it right? Mm-hmm. , they get it. And when the agencies or the politicians get it wrong, the people get it. Right. And, um, and so I’ll give you, so one of the positions I held at DEP was director of the water divisions mm-hmm. , division of Water Resource Management. So in that capacity, I go to, I go to Atlanta to take part in the region four water directors meeting. Tom Frick. And I go, because the state of forest is the only state that has a deer division, the division of Environmental Assessment Restoration, and then a water division everywhere else, they have their N P D E S and their standard setting group under one person. So Florida right there thinks it’s important enough to have two, Tom gives a presentation on numeric nutrient criteria. Mm-hmm. our successes and, and opportunities in the numeric nutrient criteria. One of the directors from, and now you have to keep in mind region four is, I hope I get That’s right. Cuz I’m going by memory. Tennessee, Kentucky, north, South Carolina, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, Florida. Speaker 1 00:52:22 Don’t worry everyone. We’ll post, uh, Fred’s email address and the episode notes. Um, make sure you reach out to him if he missed something. Speaker 2 00:52:30 Yeah. So if I, I messed that up. So one of the directors I don’t recall from which state leans over to me during Tom’s presentation and he says, how did you have the political will to pull this off? We could never have done anything like this in our state, whatever state that was mm-hmm. . Um, and it, it’s because of the people. So I am optimistic because, uh, the oystermen in Apalach Hole will make their liver run living on the water. Right. They got shafted by the, by the decision. But they made their living the, you know, fishermen. Um, I did a case a couple years ago, we represented, uh, fishing act. Mm-hmm. made their living on the water. So many people, so many people in the state depend on our natural resources that I’m optimistic for our future because of them. Right. Because of them. And, and I don’t mean to, I, I think Brian and all the, and Sean at the d e p and Brian, but let’s give credit where credit’s due. It’s the people of this state of Florida. Speaker 1 00:53:30 What keeps you up at Speaker 2 00:53:31 Night? So you’re familiar with p ffa s Yeah. Okay. So that, that should keep me up at night. It should keep you up at night. Yeah. Quite honestly. But it, it, it doesn’t, what keeps me up at night is the next forever chemical. Hmm. At some point I’m concerned that for our convenience, cuz we don’t want the packaging of the, our microwave dinner or pizza box to stick that a, you know, someone is going to manufacture and it may not be in the United States, it might be overseas a chemical that I, you think about it, pfas, you know, the idea that you could cook and it wouldn’t stick to a pan was brilliant at the time and they put it in everything because that was brilliant at the time. And now you can’t find rainwater without pfas in it. Hmm. Like you, and, and in order to compare blood samples, you have to go back to like the Korean War cuz you and I have pfas in us right now. And that’s quite honestly, that’s scary. But it’s not that it’s what’s what’s the next one Speaker 1 00:54:35 Isn’t, I mean, not, I mean, not to, I wouldn’t call it pushing back. I would just say, uh, scientists that I’ve worked with would say the poisons and the dose. Um, and that includes, you know, the salt that we put, you know, on our, on our food. Uh, of course. Aren’t we getting better at that, at that sort of thing as time goes on, you know, you learn about, uh, the impacts of, of certain pesticides and, and other things over, over time. And, and the choice was, hey, we can, we can help put out, uh, fires, um, you know, planes that, you know, crash with, you know, these chemicals and that seems great at the time. Um, but maybe not so much. It seems like that’s less, less likely. Those, those things get, uh, fewer in number as the years gone, do you think? Or, or? Speaker 2 00:55:22 No. Okay. So who’s the, we, you said, aren’t we getting better at this? Who’s the, we, Speaker 1 00:55:27 The, uh, United States of America, state of Florida, you know, the epa, Speaker 2 00:55:33 Uh, and and how many manufactured goods are we buying that come from overseas? Speaker 1 00:55:38 Ask me rhetorical questions for Speaker 2 00:55:40 I’m sorry, . So my point is, yes, I understand in the United States there’s standards and, uh, you know, there’s government agencies that are supposed to, but, but what about the production of goods in China or India or some other place, right? That is producing a lot of what we consume. So, you know, maybe you’re right, but, and I, I hope you are, but Speaker 1 00:56:03 I’m, I’m, I’m trying, I have no idea. What I’m trying to do is, is like, be optimistic and also recognize the things that, that we have caught in the past. That it takes like the, if you remember the, the Chinese manufactured drywall that was a giant disaster and toxic and, um, poorly made, but don’t those things. And I, you know, and I, I don’t think either one of us know, it’s like, but it seems like as you, you’re always fighting the last war, but the last war, you know, maybe avoids something similar in the future when you look at maybe how, how you control, you know, the import of things that are coming in the country and, you know, and, and what, what that’s, you know, what’s Speaker 2 00:56:41 In there. Maybe, maybe the question is what keeps you up at night though, right? It was, and so you’re sort of, it’s the, it’s the, it’s the, it’s the, uh, monster under the bed. Yeah. Right? And, and that’s fair. And as we grow up, we find out there is no monster under the bed. So maybe you’re right. I don’t know that I still wanna look . So the, so I think the, the question is still is, you know, what’s the next thing we’re gonna learn about and, and how does that affect us? Speaker 1 00:57:04 Yeah, that’s a, I think that’s a fair, fair thing to be concerned about for sure. How can folks reach you if they wanna know more about what you’re up to or if they need, uh, a good environmental attorney? Speaker 2 00:57:16 So I am, um, with Law firm Lewis Lineman and Walker, my, uh, I think you’ll, you said you’d post the email address, so you can find it in the notes on the, on the, uh, podcast. Um, and reach me, uh, at my office. Number two, uh, I assume you’ll put that there. So you can call me, you can email me and you can message me on LinkedIn. I’m on LinkedIn all the time. Speaker 1 00:57:38 I can vouch for that Fred Ash Hour. Thanks for doing this. Appreciate it. Speaker 2 00:57:42 I appreciate you having me. I really do. Hey, I do wanna, so you said that I listened to Brian’s Brian’s podcast and you said at the end of it, and join me for my next conversation with another person directing Florida p you know, water policy or something to that hang regard. Speaker 1 00:58:01 It’s in, it’s in the script. I’ll re hang on. We’ll get Speaker 2 00:58:04 To it anyway. So I, at the point, at that point in time, I thought that was gonna be me. And I’m like, I don’t, I don’t know what he’s talking about, , but now I understand that you talked to Julie, so I get it. I get it. There you go. Speaker 1 00:58:15 There you go, . Well then, then, uh, hold on your horses cuz I’m gonna do it right now. Thanks again to Fred Ash hour for joining me on the podcast. You’ve been listening to Water for Fighting. You can reach me at etal water podd gmail.com or on Twitter and Instagram at et Water Pod with your comments and suggestions for who and or what you’d like to know more about production. This podcast is by Lonely Fox Studios, thanks to Carl, so for making the best of what he had to work with and to David Barfield for the Amazing graphics as well as the technical assistance. A very special thank you goes out to Bow springing from the Bow springing band for giving permission to use his music for the podcast. The song’s called Do and Work for Free, and you should check the band out live or wherever the best music is sold. I’m your host, Brett Cyphers. Join me next time for another conversation with someone who has helped shape water policy in the Sunshine State. Until then, keep your whiskey close in your water closer.

 In this episode, Brett sits down with national water quality data expert – Julie Espy. They discuss her rise through the ranks at the Florida Department of Environmental Protection; whether Florida’s Basin Management Action Plans (BMAPs) are still the best tool to remediate water quality degradation; and why one should never, ever, call her a Sooner

To learn more about the state’s Basin Management Action Plans, go here: https://floridadep.gov/dear/water-quality-restoration/content/basin-management-action-plans-bmaps

To find out more about SAS, visit their webpage here: https://www.sas.com/en_us/home.html

To reach out to Julie directly, email her at: [email protected]

Our theme song is “Doing Work For Free”, by Bo Spring Band (Apple Music) (Spotify) (Pandora)

Speaker 1 00:00:15 Welcome to Water for Fighting, where we discuss the past, present, and future of water in Florida with the people who make it happen. I’m your host, Brett Cyphers. I’ve spent over 20 years working with and getting to know the people who’ve made water, their life’s work, and I created this podcast to allow you, the listener, to get to know them as well. This episode of Water for Fighting is brought to you by Florida Water Advocates, Florida Water Advocates, where we’re tackling the water resource challenges of the future Today, I think you’re all really gonna like today’s guest, Julie Espy. Julie May be an Oklahoma native, but she’s an honorary Florida woman since she graduated from college and moved here in 1994. Julie worked her way up the ranks in the Florida Department of Environmental Protection over 23 years, finishing as the director of the Division of Environmental Assessment, and she’s now the National Director of Water Quality and Environmental Data Solutions at sass. Let’s get right into it. So you grew up in Oklahoma as the daughter of two Oklahoma State Cowboys. Is calling someone a sooner in your family fighting words?Speaker 2 00:01:17 Uh, absolutely. My dad pretty much wears orange and black or garnet and gold every single day. Uh, so yes, he would, uh, he would definitely disown me if I, uh, called him a sooner.Speaker 1 00:01:30 Well, tell me what that, that was like growing up in Oklahoma, where, well, where was your father from? Because you said he was in the military as a helicopter pilot, is that right?Speaker 2 00:01:38 My grandfather. YourSpeaker 1 00:01:39 Grandfather, yeah. Okay.Speaker 2 00:01:40 So my dad grew up kind of all over, you know, in Germany. Uh, he was born in New Hampshire, although he never really lived there, I don’t think. Um, and he has siblings, so they were all born in different parts of the world. Uh, but my grandfather and grandmother settled in Latin, Oklahoma. It is a, um, big army facility, Fort Si. Uh, so it’s a big, oh my goodness, . It’s a big training facility, so almost anyone who’s ever been in the army has gone through Fort Sill. I, uh, I’ve, I can go in anywhere and find somebody who’s probably been through there.Speaker 1 00:02:14 Yeah, me too. I was in, I was in the Army, but I managed to, uh, Dodge Fort Sill, thankfully.Speaker 2 00:02:19 So I’ll say lucky you . Right? I mean, I loved Oklahoma. Um, it was, it was totally different, obviously than Florida, but, uh, good people there. Southwest Oklahoma is beautiful in its own way. Um, very different. Oklahoma in a lot of ways is sort of like Florida. It’s very diverse. Northeast Oklahoma’s hills of the Ozarks, lots of trees and water. Southwest Oklahoma, not so much.Speaker 1 00:02:45 That was gonna be one of my questions is do they in fact have trees, water and trees in southwest Oklahoma?Speaker 2 00:02:51 Um, not too much, really. Uh, you hear the, you know, the song Oklahoma and the Open Plains, it’s very much so, uh, kind of western Oklahoma and certainly southwest Oklahoma. It’s one of the reasons why I left is because there isn’t a lot of water. I, I knew I wanted to study biology and water ecology and those types of things. So when I graduated college, I was like, okay, I gotta find somewhere to land.Speaker 1 00:03:15 Well, let’s talk about that because, um, I saw your, I saw your bio and so you studied biology in college at, what was the,Speaker 2 00:03:22 What was it, Cameron University?Speaker 1 00:03:23 Cameron University, home of the Fighting Aggies. Aggies Fair.Speaker 2 00:03:27 Like the, it was formerly an agricultural school.Speaker 1 00:03:30 And, and so you trained as a biologist and your first job out of college is as a chemist, , is that right? KindSpeaker 2 00:03:37 Of, yes.Speaker 1 00:03:37 Well, tell me about that.Speaker 2 00:03:39 Uh, so when I moved to Tallahassee, I, you know, one of the first jobs I got was at a private lab here in, in Tallahassee that serviced, um, a lot of the municipalities and things like that. Uh, so I just kind of took the first science job, obviously, that I could, you know, get my hands on. And we did all of like, nutrients and biochemical oxygen demand, you know, bods and fetal coliforms and all of those types of analyses in that laboratory. So I learned a lot. Yeah. Yes.Speaker 1 00:04:08 So you start in a chemistry lab, and then you get your first job at d e p. What year was that?Speaker 2 00:04:14 98. 1998. AndSpeaker 1 00:04:16 That’s the biology section? Yes. Your first job at d e P was in the biology section, right? Correct. Yeah. And you said it was 1998? Yes. And you were a bug picker as you put it. Um, what on earth is a bug picker?Speaker 2 00:04:34 Yes. Um, well, uh, one of the types of samples that they take into the laboratory is something that’s collected out in the field. Um, and it consists of basically leaves and grass and sand and all those types of things. But what they’re really trying to get at are the macroinvertebrates or the little bugs that live in the streams, in the lakes, uh, because those organisms are, they integrate water quality over time. So it gives you a, a better picture of what’s going on in the system as far as water quality conditions than maybe just taking a one-time sample and getting kind of that snapshot. The thought is that the macroinvertebrates, you know, give you that picture or that, you know, picture of water quality health over time. So my job was to sort through the leaves and the dirt and all that kind of stuff, and pick out the bugs that then we handed off to folks who would do identifications because, uh, certain ones are good bugs and certain ones are indicators of maybe poor water quality condition. So that was kind of what I did. WhatSpeaker 1 00:05:38 Would be the, the application at that point for that, that data in terms of the type of bug?Speaker 2 00:05:44 Yeah, so the, um, the stream condition index was a, or still is, uh, a way to tell you which streams are healthy. So they have a, a healthy ecosystem, meaning that the water quality is healthy. And if you had poor organisms, you know, organisms that could tolerate water quality or water pollution, um, then those would be streams that, you know, would, might, might get targeted for, say, restoration or those types of a, uh, activities.Speaker 1 00:06:12 You move from there to the watershed assessment section. Is that right? That’s correct, yeah. And what do, what, what was the change there for you in terms of what you did on a day-to-daySpeaker 2 00:06:22 Basis? Yeah, so that’s, like I just said, it’s kind of the next step, right? So we’re, you know, collecting the data in the laboratory, we’re analyzing it and turning out the results, and then those results, you know, end up in actions. Um, and so by moving to the watershed assessment section, that was really what we did, is we took that data and did an evaluation. You know, we looked at the water quality data, we looked at the cis or the stream condition index samples, and, uh, did an assessment to evaluate all the different waters in the state. Um, really that’s like the basis for, uh, water quality restoration in the state. Um,Speaker 1 00:07:00 Okay. And so you’re, you’re literally taking it is what I wanted to, to get to, which was the long train of how you go from looking at, uh, some water body or natural system and saying, is there something wrong with it? If there is, what is it? And then, uh, once you know what it is, how do you fix it? That’s right. Uh, and so you’re at, you’re at step two, but we get to I think, step three in the process, which is by the time I met you and when I met you, you were the director of, uh, what’s affectionately known as deer. Yes. But it’s the division of Environmental Assessment andSpeaker 2 00:07:35 Restoration.Speaker 1 00:07:35 And Restoration. Yes. Uh, my apo, well, ours gotta come from somewhere . Um, and it’s, I consider it, and somebody may argue with me, but they’re wrong. Um, but I consider that one of the four hardest jobs in the entire department. Uh, which I mean, it’s, it’s a tough one, right? Yeah.Speaker 2 00:07:53 It’s definitely a lot to take on. Um, you know, we’re trying to identify waters, um, you know, some people want their water identified as impaired and others don’t want that water body identified as impaired . So you’re always kind of battling that, and we’re trying to do it for the entire state, you know, so it was a big job, um, and trying to develop, you know, the right water quality restoration strategies, um, cuz you know, one size doesn’t fit all. It was definitely challenging, but I, I really loved the challenge when I was there.Speaker 1 00:08:24 And it’s, it’s a more, that’s more, uh, public facingSpeaker 2 00:08:28 Absolutely.Speaker 1 00:08:29 Farther the drop, especially. It’s gotta be weird for na people who do science for a living to be in the position where now you’re the, you’re very public facing and ISpeaker 2 00:08:38 Got very used to public speaking in that job. Yeah, absolutely.Speaker 1 00:08:41 And, and so, okay, so we’ve identified, basically you worked in all, you know, all three of the major steps there. Uh, but talk me through the process. So take a, take a water body or some natural system and talk me through that beginning, the beginning to the end. And may, and maybe it’s one that, you know, over your, over your time, you may have seen, you know, from the beginning to, to bmap implementation or base management action plan implementation.Speaker 2 00:09:06 Yeah. Oh, wow. Um, there are several. I mean, I could just, I’ll, I’ll touch on we’ll, Callis, since that’s really, uh, how we kind, it’s good. That’s best. Yeah, that’s a good one. Right. Um, I have, you know, we monitored COLA for years back, you know, when I was in the biology section, we had routine monitoring. We did out there on a quarterly basis. We were collecting water and biology and looking at plants and algae and all of the different ecosystems and trying to do a really good assessment of what was going on. Um, all of that data got used by one of our modelers at D E P who developed a, a watershed model, um, to determine the total maximum daily load or the, the maximum amount of nutrients that that system, you know, could, uh, assimilate or use and still be healthy. And then, uh, went into the basin management action plan development phase where we take that TMDL target and determine what are the best activities and projects and all of the different things that can be done in the watershed to restore it to a healthy condition. And, and actually COLA is a system that I’ve seen change over my time here in Tallahassee from when I first moved here in 1994. So that one’s been really, you know, kind of fun and interesting to, to see through the whole process. Um, ac you know, the b m a’s been in place now for several years. You, you’re very familiar with that. And, um, we are starting to see improvements in water quality. So that’s been a, a real, you know, like I said, a good one to watch.Speaker 1 00:10:39 Tell me about the, the, the development of the TMDL itself. And you mentioned a model and, and models come in for, uh, a certain amount of criticism, and I understand it’s cuz we’re, it’s not, it’s not measurements like when you’re doing your, the, the watershed assessment side of things or Right. Or bug picking where you’re, you’re looking at real, you something real, right? Uh, a real measurement where you can say, okay, this is what was happening before and this is what, uh, say the, the total nitrogen level is, you know, at the vent now, um, the advent of the meric nutrient criteria kind of put, uh, a solid line mm-hmm. , you know, in that process, most of them are what 0.35 milligrams per liter. We’re talking aboutSpeaker 2 00:11:25 Nitrogen for springsSpeaker 1 00:11:26 Mm-hmm. , right? For springs mm-hmm. . Um, and some are a little different, but not much different. Tell me about the differences, how, how you des determine the differences there when you look at, uh, say we’ll call spring versus one that has maybe a, a lower tmd.Speaker 2 00:11:42 Yeah. Well, so we kind of, you know, when COLA was developed, we didn’t have numeric nutrient criteria quite yet, but it ended up, you know, cuz it actually has a lower level than the, than the numeric nutrient criteria. But we knew when we developed numeric nutrient criteria that we needed something, we needed a number to put, you know, as a starting place. And then when you go into TMDL development, you’re really looking at the specifics, right? Because as numeric nutrient criteria were developed, it was, like I said, we’re trying to cover the whole state, right? Um, so you do the best you can to develop the appropriate criteria that would apply, you know, for all streams or all springs in the state. And then as you do a tmdl, you’re really looking at, well, what are the specific uses, uh, land uses or activities in the watershed and trying to establish the appropriate number for that particular water body. And that’s really, you know, that’s where the rubber meets the road, so to speak, I think.Speaker 1 00:12:40 And so you, you start with the model, you start with your total maximum daily load. And as you’re moving, uh, toward the BM map, obviously you ha you mean models are, you know, are predictive in nature. But, uh, I continue to hear, um, and I know that Moda Homan has talked a lot about it in public, uh, venues, which is adaptive management. Can you tell me, when you look at something that looks like a hard and fast number, right? And you’re doing restoration of a place like, uh, we’ll springs in the we’ll river, uh, where does adaptive management fit into that picture?Speaker 2 00:13:15 Right? Um, you know, so in a basin management action plan, you know, as, as, as we’ve developed that program over time and, and just in literature and research that has been done, you know, certain activities that are gonna have beneficial nutrient reductions, right? What that number is, is not, you know, super well defined. It’s not black and white, but you know, you’re gonna get a reduction. You have some idea of what that reduction will consist of. And so as you are applying those activities and those restoration strategies in the bmap, you’re also monitoring and saying, you know, is, is that matching what I expect to see? And so if it’s not, then more may need to be done to, to achieve that tmdl or maybe less, you know, maybe you’re getting a, a better benefit from an activity than what was predicted or what was known at the time. And that’s really what I think, you know, what what is meant by adaptive management, you’re trying, you know, the goal is to achieve the tmdl, get the healthy condition, and you’re doing the best you can to get there as time goes on.Speaker 1 00:14:20 And so the B M A P process has come under some criticism. I mean, I don’t know, have you ever dealt with a bmap that wasn’t criticized ? I haven’t, I haven’t heard of that one yet, but no. But in terms of, uh, it being somehow inadequate for the task at hand and you, and you and you just, you know, articulated very well what the task at hand is, which is restoration of that water body, right? Um, and so folks have said, well, gosh, the bmap the, the BMAP itself, uh, or the process doesn’t lend itself to real restoration. Um, uh, personally I believe it’s the best tool that we have at the moment for, for determining how to restore these water bodies. But the issue seems to be the same thing. It is for almost everything in, in life in government, which is it’s a time and money issue.Speaker 2 00:15:10 Absolutely.Speaker 1 00:15:11 Yeah. Uh, so I mean, what’s your opinion on the, you, you’re now, do you, do you have, and you do data for a living now, is it, is it still the best thing that we have available, um, in the toolbox, um, given that we have adaptive management, given that we’re always constantly looking at whether we’re doing it right or not, right. Um, what do you think about allSpeaker 2 00:15:36 That? I do honestly. Um, and I have, you know, engaged in other states across the US and, you know, our B M A P program is above and beyond what I have seen in other states. Um, they ha don’t have near the research or resources that we have. And, and I know it’s still a slow process. It’s a slog, you know, it takes time. I mean, but we have to realize too, it took, it took decades to get these water bodies in these conditions, and it’s gonna take decades to get them back. Right. Um, but I, I do think that it is a good process and, and, and as you just said, with the adaptive management, it allows us to adjust and learn over time and make ’em better, right? Mm-hmm. , I mean, the OLA B map is what, 10? Well, no, it’s a lot more older than that. 15 years old now, you know, almost. And so we’re gonna learn over time and be able to improve, uh, the things that go into future b m maps and, and adjust the, the ones that have been on the books for a while.Speaker 1 00:16:38 Do you think it, when you look at, and, uh, you know, obviously I haven’t spent as much time digging into, uh, springs and say, uh, north Central Florida and, you know, the Santa Fe River mm-hmm. or, uh, the Gainesville area or, uh, you know, east Central Florida. But I have seen what we’ve got, what we have here is that, are there other places where, where you look at and say, gosh, we’re, we’re actually pretty close. I mean, I saw how it worked for Waca. It’s no secret how, you know, it worked. You have city of Tallahassee, um, upgrades their wastewater treatment facility, right? And you do a whole bunch of conversions of septic tanks to, to central sewer to then treat it, you know, to that high, that higher level to keep more and more of that nitrogen out of the water. It was expensive.Speaker 1 00:17:27 I mean, I think, I think the total right at this point is probably somewhere between 250, $300 million now. Right? And you were a huge part of, of the middle to the present there mm-hmm. . And I remember those conversations that, that we had, which gosh, we’re so close to this. Yeah. Wouldn’t it be cool to see that happen? Uh, but it was, but there was no magic to it. It was, this is how much it cost That’s right. To go in, abandon someone’s septic tank and convert it to, to central sewer. Do you see that same possibility elsewhere, given the constraints that we have of, of time? The, you know, the other, the other variable is, is money, right?Speaker 2 00:18:05 Um, certainly, you know, it takes commitment. Um, and we were really fortunate here on, you know, in the McCullough basin that the city of Tallahassee and McCullah County, I mean, really, you know, put their nose to the grindstone and came up with some, some good projects and activities to really make a difference. And, and that does happen in other watersheds. Um, but I, I, you know, this might sound strange, but in a way, Wakus, unique , um, because we had a limited number of stakeholders, right? Mm-hmm. , and in some of like the north central areas, you have a, a much bigger stakeholder group. And so getting everyone on the same page with the same commitment, you know, to the same goal can be challenging. Absolutely. Um, but it’s certainly possible. And my, you know, I think conversations you and I had in the past is like, man, it would be so great if we could get wakulla and like just show it off to everybody. Like say, look, when you do the commitment, yes, it’s expensive, but man, when you do it, it can work, right? Yeah. Um, so I’m really hoping that that will still happen, you know, even though you and I have moved on. But, um, you know, I think it, I think it, canSpeaker 1 00:19:17 I keep, I still keep an eye on it, I thinkSpeaker 2 00:19:19 There No, yeah, meSpeaker 1 00:19:19 Too. But I think, uh, I think you’re right. Is there, let me ask you this, because the, some of it was harder than other parts. I mean, spending nearly $200 million on an upgraded, uh, wastewater treatment facility is a big deal. Mm-hmm. , but there’s another a hundred odd million dollars that we’re talking about there. And much of it is in a place that many people thought weren’t the types that want, would want to move forward with these things. Uh, and Will Cull County has been an incredible partner. Yes. Part of that ease though, is partly having a good governance, a good county administrator who’s willing to push things forward. But there’s an advantage there as well, which is when you look at the requirements from the Springs Restoration Protection Program mm-hmm. , you’re looking at match requirements. And so if you’re looking at a place that is not considered a small disadvantaged community, and we’ll call it to be considered one of those Right.Speaker 1 00:20:20 Or ready community, it’s harder for those middle places where you look at, they’re not completely, you’re not completely poor mm-hmm. or disadvantaged, but they can’t afford to come up with 50% of 200 million. Yes. Perhaps, uh, for the solution. What do you think about the, you know, the, the notion of are we, are we approaching that the wrong, the, the wrong way? Or is it, do you think it’s good or bad in different public policy to say, if it’s our, if it’s, if it’s our priority, if it’s the state’s priority to see this water body, um, recovered, why rely on a local government’s ability to do that from perhaps an incredibly limited budget? Maybe we should just take these, these things on ourselves. What do you think about that? I know it’s a, it’s a difficult question to ask and it’s difficult, you know, to, to propose. Well, but you see a lot of things get stunted because ofSpeaker 2 00:21:11 That, right? Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. Uh, you know, I think the governor and the federal government has done, you know, created a huge investment to try and perhaps help those types of communities. Um, although they still struggle because they don’t necessarily have the resources to do the grant applications, and they, you know, they haven’t dealt with those types of programs before. So that’s certainly a struggle. And to me, that’s where I’ve always felt like they could use the help, right? Mm-hmm. , like someone who could help them get through the process. Cuz you know, it’s, it’s government and it’s a process. Um, but it is, they certainly do get left behind, but I think part of that match has always been the state can’t do it all. Like we can give them all the money in the world and we can upgrade the facility, right? But if they don’t, again, have that commitment to, to maintain it, to ensure that it’s operating the way it’s supposed to, the, you know, to, to make sure those things go into the future, we’re gonna be right back where we were. Right? They’ll have a new facility, but it might not be functioning the way it’s supposed to. So I, I, I do think it’s a responsibility of everyone, um, honestly. Yeah.Speaker 1 00:22:18 No, I think that, I think that’s perfectly, you know, perfectly valid opinion. Um, and so you’re with a company called sas. Now, is that also an, because you’re all scientists in database? Like is SAS also an acronym, I assume, or,Speaker 2 00:22:31 Um, it probably used to be the company’s been in place for like 47 years. I think it’s used to stand for statistical something or other, but now, um, because it, that’s what it is. It’s, it’s a statistical software, uh, package essentially. Um, but they dropped the acronym. I mean, they, they use the acronym now. They dropped whatever it stood four years ago. SoSpeaker 1 00:22:51 Well tell me, well be beyond that. Yeah. , uh, which is not, notSpeaker 2 00:22:55 ThatSpeaker 1 00:22:56 Interesting. I was like, poke at you a little bit about an acronym. Um, uh, tell me about what you’re up to at sass and are there things that, that you’re involved with now in the creation of, of statistical tools that may, may help us do better ATS restoring some of these places?Speaker 2 00:23:17 Yeah. Um, so I, I’ve been with SA SaaS just a short time now, um, a little over a year. And like I said, we’re, we’re really a software and data analytics company, right? And we do a lot of work with state and local governments trying to help them do, you know, do those things. Uh, with regards to water quality, that’s kind of where they brought me on, um, is kind of to be a subject matter expert in, in water quality data. We’ve been doing work here in Florida. We’re, um, you know, trying to get other, uh, state and local governments across the US on board and, and having some really good conversations with them. And it’s, it’s so interesting because, uh, a lot of environmental agencies operate very similarly. You know, they’re, their data is siloed, they’re, they don’t have resources, you know, to do all of the data preparation and analysis.Speaker 2 00:24:09 I mean, it’s just, you know, really, really similar. But I think, uh, definitely here in Florida and some of the work we’ve done with the D E P could be really useful. Um, one of the things we’ve been looking at is, is a septic tank susceptibility tool, uh, to help identify areas throughout the state that are, um, you know, more susceptible to septic tank pollution, right? Yeah. And it’s looking at not just the age and density, but also some of the geologic, you know, formations and things like that. Um, and trying to give them a tool that, you know, makes that very simple for them to identify areas throughout the state where maybe they should be prioritizing some of these, uh, conversions, you know, to sewer in those types ofSpeaker 1 00:24:53 Areas. And that’s incredibly important data to have. We have two and a half plus million. Yeah. South Tanks in Florida. If you were to replace all those, you’re looking at 40 plus billion dollars . Right.Speaker 2 00:25:07 But not all of them probably need to be replaced. Right.Speaker 1 00:25:09 That’s the, that’s the, that’s the point is I think there were, the, the big mistake in the legislation, I think it was 2010 and 11, uh, in the septic tank inspection program, really rested on the failure to recognize that not all septic tanks are created alike, and not all places are. That’s right. Uh, are created the same. And so, uh, how far are you in that, that analysis?Speaker 2 00:25:32 Yeah, so we’ve, um, started it, we, we actually kind of put together a, a draft index kind of score, um, with, uh, university of Florida at the time and some, some other septic technology, you know, people, people who have a lot of knowledge in that, that expertise. And, um, we’re actually working on updating it right now and kind of presenting that back to d E P to say, Hey, you know, we, we really think this would be a useful tool for you. Um, you know, and trying to make those adjustments that they, that they, you know, would put it into place. Yeah.Speaker 1 00:26:02 Free plug, uh, if you’re listening to D e p. Yeah,Speaker 2 00:26:06 Exactly.Speaker 1 00:26:07 Um, sounds, it sounds, it, it, it’s, and it’s somethingSpeaker 2 00:26:10 That, to me, when I saw it, I was just like, wow, if we could do that, that would be really useful. .Speaker 1 00:26:16 I, I, I agree. I mean, we spent some time both at the Water Management district and sense looking at these things and saying, what is it going to cost? How do we get there? How do we put, uh, a, a better, a clear vision of where point B is? And I don’t think that, I don’t think that is clear at the moment. Yeah, that’s right. And we’re moving forward with bmas, which are great. You know, the, I think as I said before, it’s like, and I stand by it. It’s like, I think the product is great. Great. I think the, the folks behind it are doing the best they can, but they can’t be everything to, to everyone. I think that’s where the, the benefit of involving, um, private sector, especially folks like, you know, SaaS and others that, you know, that can, that can do those analytics. But I, I, I hope that, I hope that it works.Speaker 2 00:27:00 Yeah, me too. Yeah.Speaker 1 00:27:02 So whether it’s in government or outside, and obviously I think you spent most of your time in government.Speaker 2 00:27:08 I am a public servant. . Yeah.Speaker 1 00:27:10 Yes, definitely. What accomplishment are you most proud of?Speaker 2 00:27:14 You know, I honestly, I’m, I’m really, I’ve, I’ve thought about this a lot. Um, I, I’m really proud of the work I did at, at DP and Endear specifically, and the fact that I started as a bug picker. And, um, they almost didn’t wanna hire me as like a permanent employee. And I became the director , uh, to me as a pretty good accomplishment. But I, I mean, I learned so much along the way from so many smart people, including yourself. Mm-hmm. , you know, that really helped me. Um, and I’m, I’m really proud of that. Like, I, I wanna be an advocate for Florida’s water and environment and, and really the us which is why I, I kind of took the job with sass.Speaker 1 00:27:51 That’s exciting. They’re, to go back to SAS for a second, they’re based out of where? North Carolina. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And, but they’re stretching in all, all over the place now, not just, and not just in the United States. Right,Speaker 2 00:28:02 Right. They’re, they’re actually an international company. And I was just talking with someone yesterday who’s, you know, trying to do some projects in Europe, you know, with folks, you know, they’re, they’re doing all kinds of water quality things also.Speaker 1 00:28:13 Yeah. That’s, I mean, that’s exciting. Yeah. But, you know, but o obviously it’s like I’m, you know, more partial to your work at, at, at Deer. Yeah. But, uh, but it’s exciting to see what the future holds. Um, talking about the future, are you optimistic about the future of the environment in water in Florida?Speaker 2 00:28:31 Well, I certainly feel like we’re, um, moving, you know, have been moving, I should say, have been moving in the right direction. Um, you know, I know when I first started working at D E p, not many people knew much about the TMDL program, or certainly Bmap s didn’t even exist when I started there in 1998. And, uh, so over time, you know, it really has become a very well-known issue, not just in Florida, but across the us, you know, that we have water quality problems, um, which is unfortunate, but, uh, you know, you know, that we’re known across the us, but, um, I think we really are headed in the right direction. And, um, as I mentioned, you know, seeing Wakulla change over time, and I, I’m hoping to see it, you know, back to the, the clear, you know, waters that it was, and, um, not seeing algae so much.Speaker 1 00:29:22 I mean, but, and I think you mentioned it twice now, , um, that it is better. He, you know, here you’ve seen other places mm-hmm. and, and Juxta juxtaposing, you know, Florida’s situation, you know, with other folks, we don’t get a chance to see, we, you know, a lot of times, right. Uh, the pessimist in us, you know, looks at, looks at something like, gosh, this is, this is screwed up. Is this, you know, is this getting worse? Is this our fate as a state? Um, but you’re saying, and you’ve had the opportunity to see, you know, uh, probably at least several other places now. Yeah. And you still stick by. It’s like, Hey, I think we’re, you know, we’re, we’re heading in the right direction. I mean, it may be the pace may be slower than some of us would like, butSpeaker 2 00:30:01 Yeah, I think so. You know, this is a personal opinion and which a lot of this is, but I think our struggle in Florida is that balance between growth and protection mm-hmm. or, you know, restoration. Um, obviously, you know, we want the state to grow and, and be prosperous and, you know, we like people to come here because it is a beautiful state mm-hmm. . Um, we have lots to offer, but it’s always that balance of, you know, when’s enough enough or, or doing things the right way. That’s the, that’s the thing that I’m hoping we’re even moving further towards, is, um, when we’re doing growth, let’s do it the right way, um, so that we don’t have, you know, this continual issue. Um, we can see restoration, we can see the restoration stick. Right, right, right.Speaker 1 00:30:46 Yeah. Since you’re, since you are in fact the optimist, I’m not, I’m not gonna ask you my, I am my pat other question, which is, uh, what keeps you up at night? Um, but I will say, I will say this , uh, I mentioned before that, that I, you know, and I don’t BS about it when I say that, that the Deere director job is, is one of the hardest, I mean, it, it’s probably, in my mind it’s probably top top two. But, um, there are a few other ones in there that, you know, that would give you a run for your money and that Sure. And that, um, but it’s gotta be, it, it seems like it’s the kind of position that it’s super important and it’s super important to have people that, uh, love what they’re doing and, uh, are smart and people that get after it, but it doesn’t feel like it’s something you can do for forever. Yeah. Um, because it just takes it, it takes aSpeaker 2 00:31:33 Toll. Takes this toll. Sure.Speaker 1 00:31:34 Yeah. And so from that perspective, I mean, you get to do these great things. You just don’t have to be in that pressure cooker, you know, so much. So from that perspective, it’s, yeah. Um, so it’s a, it’s a good thing. Is there, other than when you, you mentioned growth management, is there something else environmentally related that you say, gosh, I wish we, I wish we did this thing better, or is that it, or, and that can be the answer is, yeah.Speaker 2 00:31:58 You know, it is that, but you, you know, it, it’s, it’s varied in its components, right? We need to do storm water better and, and they’re trying to, you know, upgrade or update the rules mm-hmm. so we can do storm water better. You know, we, we need to do septic tanks better. We’re trying to do that as well. Um, it’s all of those components that we need to do better as we’re growing, um, you know, fertilizer, whatever it is. Mm-hmm. , you know, in certain areas there are more vulnerable to it, you know, we need to make sure that those things are in place so we’re not here again. Um, like I, you know, there’s lots of good science that that’s out there and people are continuing to study it, so I think we can get there. I am an optimist. Uh,Speaker 1 00:32:35 YouSpeaker 2 00:32:35 Picked up on that, huh? Well,Speaker 1 00:32:36 Good. Yeah. . Um, no, I think it with, you know, with folks like you on the job, I, you know, I see it, I see it happen in the future myself, although, uh, I’m less of a natural optimist than you are. Juli Espy . Uh, what advice would you give young people who are just entering or are interested in entering the environmental field?Speaker 2 00:32:57 Yeah, gosh, I mean, I love it so much. Um, I do think, you know, you’re not gonna get into it for the pay. That’s probably the first thing everyone will tell you. Um, but it’s, it’s very rewarding. Um, if you, you know, you, if you like the environment, you like to, you know, to go out and enjoy it and you wanna protect it, there are lots of ways to do that. You know, not just water quality, but habitat restoration and, you know, all of the different components and all of those things together. I, I’m, I’m always trying to encourage young people to study science. Um, sometimes I get ’em, sometimes I don’t. I have a, a, a niece that I’ve, I’m always giving her gifts that have some science theme, you know, and she enjoys it. So maybe I’ve, uh, indoctrinated her, hopefullySpeaker 1 00:33:43 . I, I hope so. And, and I saw a, a Facebook post, um, from a friend the other day who’s, uh, I think his gra his granddaughter and her partner won the, the local science fair.Speaker 2 00:33:54 Oh, love it.Speaker 1 00:33:55 Love it. Having to do with, you know, nutrient pollution and water bodies love even more. And I’m thinking to myself, I’m like, there you go. There, thereSpeaker 2 00:34:01 You go. YouSpeaker 1 00:34:01 Go. That’s right. They’re coming along. Yeah. So it’s ex it’s exciting. Yeah. Um, how can folks reach you if they wanna learn more about what you’re up to and how you might be able to help ’em? You know, I, you know, obviously I don’t work for Sass is like, but uh, you do. Yeah. And if folks wanna get in touch with you about that, how do they do that?Speaker 2 00:34:18 Yeah, I mean by email, julie dot espy sas.com. Um, I’m available anytime.Speaker 1 00:34:25 That sounds good. And I’ll put it on, uh, the episode notes as well so people can. Julie Espy, thank you so much for joining me.Speaker 2 00:34:32 Thanks Brad. I had a great time. Appreciate it.Speaker 1 00:34:34 A huge thank you once again for Julie Espy for being here. You’ve been listening to Water for Fighting Podcast. You can reach me at fl water pod gmail.com or on Twitter and Instagram at FL Water Pod with your comments and suggestions for who and or what you’d like to know more about. Thanks again to Florida Water advocates for sponsoring this episode of Water for Fighting Production. This podcast is by Lonely Fox Studios. Thanks to Carl, so for making the best of what he had to work with and to David Barfield for the amazing graphics and technical assistance. A very special thank you goes out to Bow Spring from the Bow Spring Band for giving permission to use his music for this podcast. The song is called Doing Work for Free, and you should check out the Band Live or wherever amazing music is sold. I’m your host, Brett Ciphers. Join me next week for another amazing conversation with someone who has helped shape water policy and the Sunshine State. Until then, keep your whiskey close and your water closer.

In Episode 4, Brett sits down with his partner: long time water policy and budget guru, Frank Bernardino. They talk about the history of wetland mitigation in Florida; the water resource funding gap and how he proposes we close it; and his life as a young song writer in Miami.

Here’s the best way to reach Frank: [email protected]

If you’d like to learn more about what Frank and I do at Anfield Consulting, check us out at: www.anfieldflorida.com

To learn more about how Florida regulates wetland mitigation, and stormwater in general, check out this handy Florida Department of Environmental Protection page.

Check out a few resources explaining “SB 444”, the Water Protection and Sustainability Program and Trust Fund from 2004

Data and analysis regarding the “needs gap” from the Office of Economic and Demographic Research

Our theme song is “Doing Work For Free”, by Bo Spring Band (Apple Music) (Spotify) (Pandora)

In this episode, Brett talks with one of the most renowned environmental advocates in Florida – Eric Draper.  Draper is most known for his advocacy on behalf of Everglades protection and the Florida Forever land-buying programs, but he recently served a successful tour as the Director of the Florida State Parks Service.  They talk about effective environmental advocacy; Eric’s continued concern about the global effects of climate change; and the importance of developing partnerships instead of enemies. Get a transcript of this episode.

Here’s the best way to reach Eric. Email, LinkedIN

Here’s a link to the Florida Forever land buying program statute. Florida Forever Land Acquisition Program

As advertised, Eric has dedicated an entire career to the environment, and he was recognized for that by Audubon in 2021. Eric Wins 2021 Audubon Florida’s Teddy Roosevelt Award 

Here’s a link to one program that Eric is excited about these days.Florida Wildlife Corridor Act

Our theme song is “Doing Work For Free”, by Bo Spring Band (Apple Music) (Spotify) (Pandora)

In this episode, Brett sits down with Southwest Florida Water Management District’s Executive Director – Brian Armstrong.  Armstrong has a career in water management spanning 25 years, nearly all of them at the same water management district.  They discuss growing up on the water; the importance of alternative water supplies; who’s cooler, geologists or engineers; and an incredible story of lake and wetland restoration that doesn’t get nearly the recognition it deserves.  

Water Wars History

Southern Water Use Caution Area

Facilitating Agricultural Resource Management Systems (FARMS)

Springs Restoration and Protection Program

Our theme song is “Doing Work For Free”, by Bo Spring Band (Apple Music) (Spotify) (Pandora)

In the very first Water for Fighting podcast, Brett has a conversation with the Godfather of Florida water management – Henry Dean.  Dean currently serves on the St. Johns County board of county commissioners, but his thirty-year career in water resource protection spans five governors, two water management districts, and various other committees and agencies.  They discuss the dawn of water management districts and the Florida Department of Environmental Protection; management styles; and a career ultimately defined by its successful relationships. Download a transcript of this episode.

ELMS Committee – (Environmental Land Management Study)

Comprehensive Everglades Restoration Plan (CERP)

Kissimmee River Restoration Project

Indian River Lagoon (IRL) Restoration Program

St. Johns County Commission

Our theme song is "Doing Work For Free", by Bo Spring Band (Apple Music) (Spotify) (Pandora)

Mark Twain is said to have quipped, “Whiskey is for drinking, and water is for fighting." And in Florida, the subject of water can bring out the strongest of opinions. The Water for Fighting podcast will discuss the past, present, and future of water in Florida with the people who make it happen. The host, Brett Cyphers spent over 20 years working throughout Florida government getting to know the people who’ve made water their life’s work and created this podcast to allow you, the listener, to get to know them as well.