Water & Music

INTRO/OUTRO MUSIC:
Lakey Inspired — "Better Days"
YouTube | SoundCloud
License for commercial use: Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported "Share Alike" (CC BY-SA 3.0) License.
Full License: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/...
Music promoted by NCM: https://goo.gl/fh3rEJ

FEATURED GUEST:
Amit Gurbaxani, freelance music journalist (Firstpost, Billboard, Music Ally, etc.)

FULL ANNOTATED AND HYPERLINKED TRANSCRIPT:
https://medium.com/@cheriehu42/what-indias-music-industry-can-teach-us-about-paid-youtube-views-musical-regionalism-and-the-7008bc4cea99

INTRO/OUTRO MUSIC:
Gab Wolf — "Baby"
Bandcamp

FEATURED GUEST:
Garrison Snell, Founder/CEO of Gyrosity Projects

FULL ANNOTATED AND HYPERLINKED TRANSCRIPT:
https://medium.com/@cheriehu42/why-now-is-a-challenging-time-to-start-a-music-marketing-agency-f151192c9410

INTRO/OUTRO MUSIC:
Madame Gandhi — "Bad Habits" (Instrumental)
Spotify | Instagram | YouTube

FEATURED GUEST:
Kiran Gandhi, a.k.a. Madame Gandhi

FULL ANNOTATED AND HYPERLINKED TRANSCRIPT:
https://medium.com/@cheriehu42/what-does-an-artist-centric-future-for-music-tech-look-like-9ae5ca11d435

INTRO/OUTRO MUSIC:
PYLOT — "Clova"
Spotify | SoundCloud | Apple Music
Music provided by Monstercat:
https://youtube.com/monstercat
https://youtube.com/monstercatinstinct

FEATURED GUEST:
Wyatt Jenkins, SVP Product at Patreon
Patreon raised a $60 million Series D funding round in July 2019, around one month after this interview was originally recorded.
Part of our discussion revolves around Wyatt's blog post in February 2019 about why Patreon is not a discovery platform.

FULL ANNOTATED AND HYPERLINKED TRANSCRIPT:
https://medium.com/@cheriehu42/why-music-isnt-a-top-two-category-on-patreon-yet-c734a71d8959

Thanks to Marcus Hahm for his help with mixing!

INTRO/OUTRO MUSIC
"McFlurry" (Instrumental) by Sleaford Mods
Original song: Spotify | Apple Music | YouTube
Music licensed from Lickd - https://lickd.co
Listen and License this track here: https://t.lickd.co/0b16a70c28b54aaab609c4fc88193c06
License ID: 498c21344bcd47379e72f0f740e4465c

FEATURED GUEST
Alex Mitchell
Founder/CEO, Boomy
Boomy launched out of beta on July 19, 2019, just one hour before this episode was recorded.

FULL TRANSCRIPT WITH HYPERLINKS
https://medium.com/@cheriehu42/how-artificial-intelligence-will-do-to-music-what-instagram-did-to-photography-b69268a2d318

Special thanks to Marcus Hahm for help with mixing!

INTRO/OUTRO MUSIC
"Flowers" by a[way]
Creative Commons — Attribution 3.0 Unported  — CC BY 3.0
Free Download/Stream: http://bit.ly/Flowers-away
Music promoted by Audio Library: https://youtu.be/h_7V5TXkAw4

FEATURED GUEST
Sammy Andrews
CEO, Deviate Digital
This episode is inspired by Sammy's recent column in Music Week about the stubborn data silos that persist in the music industry.

TIMESTAMPED TOPICS

[2:49] Interview begins

[5:53] Preliminary overview of different data silos that exist among artists, labels, publishers, distributors and streaming platforms. Examples:

• Siloed consumption data among several labels for the album
• Siloed audience data among labels and promoters
• Labels charging outside parties to use retargeting data, not being open to outside pixel tracking

[9:49] Importance of asking for access to certain kinds of data in recording/publishing contracts.

[11:15] Promoters usually get left behind in terms of access to data, but take on the most risk in putting on shows.

• How can managers and agents help solve the issue?
• What role can streaming platforms like Spotify play in terms of driving higher clickthrough rates for ticket sales?

[15:09] DSPs have a long way to go before fully nurturing and monetizing superfan relationships.

• E.g. possibility of streaming services offering artists the data and tools to retarget their most loyal fans off-platform

[16:40] Distributors offering self-serve advertising platforms to indie artists

• Examples: CD Baby's Show.co; Sammy mentions Beatchain
• CORRECTION: AdRev, which is owned by CD Baby's parent company, focuses on Content ID management and video monetization, not on advertising.
• These types of platforms still may have a drawback in terms of full autonomy from a siloed platform.

[21:08] Given that nothing is certain in terms of the future of tech and media companies, the best way to protect artists is to ensure that they can have their consumption, audience and payment data move with them, as opposed to constantly trying to cobble together fragmented sources at the whim of third parties.

[26:05] What are types of data that music companies are very protective about and don't want to share, but whose openness could actually benefit them more?

• Sammy's personal example: Data silos prevented her from successfully building a global playlist brand for the independent community, to compete with major labels' curatorial brands (Digster, Filtr, Topsify). 

[30:03] More and more music companies all morphing into the same thing and eating into each other's revenue streams.

• Original article comes from Music Business Worldwide's Tim Ingham, writing for Rolling Stone.
• Caveat: Will this consolidation just lead us back to an era of predatory 360 deals?

[33:09] Is bundling an effective solution for breaking down data silos, or does it just take advantage of fans?

• Examples: DJ Khaled vs. Tyler the Creator on the Billboard charts, and Taylor Swift's controversial Verified Fan campaign with Ticketmaster.

[36:10] The chicken-egg problem for solving the data-silo problem: Should we try to build a concrete product first, or start by tackling wider organizational practices and behaviors?

• Lessons from other industries: practices for a global album launch should be on par with how big-name fashion brands Nike and Adidas plan global product launches.
• Data silos present artists from being able to treat themselves as legitimate, always-on brands.

[42:31] Overrated/Underrated segment begins

[42:39] Sammy's topic: Big tech players like Netflix, Facebook and Spotify extending and diversifying their reach into entirely different types of content and technologies.

• Example of a failure: Amazon's short-lived ticketing venture.
• Where does the music industry fit in, with respect to carving out different routes to market and thinking in a more innovative way about press and media campaigns?

[47:25] Caveats of doing exclusive distribution and content deals with tech platforms

• Crazy Rich Asians director Jon M. Chu chose to go with a traditional big-screen release over a Netflix exclusive deal, which allowed him and the film to break box-office records and have wider cultural impact.
• Should artists "sign" to streaming platforms — or is the ideal relationship more nuanced?
• With great content opportunities come great digital advertising opportunities, which can go a much longer way than a single, poorly-placed TV ad. Sammy comes across a few new advertising opportunities for her clients every week.

[52:46] Cherie's topic: Spotify is one of several tech companies supporting Facebook's new cryptocurrency Libra.

• Spotify published an official post on their website.
• The Libra partnership parallels Spotify's needs to integrate directly with local telcos in emerging because of the relative lack of separate bank accounts.

Special thanks to Jay Shah for help with editing and mixing!

INTRO/OUTRO MUSIC:
Yung Skrrt & Jonah Baseball - "The Man" (feat. Houdinne & Lunarboy) (Instrumental)
Spotify | SoundCloud | Bandcamp
Yung Skrrt: Twitter | Instagram

COVER ART:
Arielle Trenk

FEATURED GUESTS:
Eugene Kan — co-founder, MAEKAN
Charis Poon — writer, editor and producer, MAEKAN
Both Eugene and Charis co-host the weekly podcast Making It Up, and were two of five co-writers of the essay "The Modern Creator's Paradigm: Reasons for More Critique and Accountability."

SHOW TIMESTAMPS:

[2:50] Interview begins.

[4:00] Are we as consumers sufficiently challenging the creative work that's out there? Is it our role to challenge it? Should the consumer always "win"?

[9:12] Music and video platforms are increasingly embracing their roles as gatekeepers, and taking on the burden of responsibility and scrutiny in their curation.

• Liz Pelly's "Discover Weakly," a study of gender representation on Spotify playlists.

[15:45] A significant component of creative and algorithmic accountability just comes down to answering the question of why. Why is a platform recommending this song or movie to me? Why am I listening to this song, and does the platform know that reason? This is a question that word-of-mouth addresses better than any other tactic, and that algorithmic channels like Spotify's Discover Weekly still struggle to navigate.

[20:36] Thinking more critically about a piece of creative work arguably drives up the value of that work. "Without creative accountability, the new work that’s generated rarely gets the critique necessary for it to develop into something refined and of higher value."

[25:26] Regardless of whether the song "Old Town Road" is actually "good," Lil Nas X benefited from fast-moving forms of cultural response — including memes, which arguably comprise a form of cultural criticism.

[28:42] Despite whatever creative democratization has taken place thanks to technology, our silos of communal critique may be deepening.

[29:39] As a whole, if we're advocating for smaller, tight-knit communities of critique to help push culture forward, how many of those communities will we be able to see in the open? Who will even get to see it in the first place? (Hint: platforms.)

[30:57] From a cultural consumer's perspective, higher barriers to consumption arguably lead to more impactful and emotional investment in creators.

[33:41] Music distribution and tech companies are increasingly catering to the "middle tier" of independent artists and their teams.

• I wrote a recent newsletter about how music distributor Stem made precisely this pivot to "middle-tier" services.

[39:01] A somewhat radical idea: What if creator-focused companies taxed hobbyists higher than professional artists for their services? Or, put another way, what if artists were rewarded with more equity, not less, for contributing positively to their culture and community — essentially the opposite of how traditional record-label deals are structured?

[42:44] Discussion of the key building blocks for the future of media, speaking from our experiences building MAEKAN (Eugene/Charis) and a Patreon membership (Cherie). Key trends:

1. Moving beyond news cycles, accelerated timelines and output quotas.
2. "Finishable content" — i.e. moving past the psychological feeling of never getting caught up.
3. Infinite cultural mindset — i.e. fostering culture with infinite longevity and cross-generational relevance, instead of focusing only on content that drives short-term engagement.

[54:39] Overrated/Underrated segment begins. (this lasted more than 10 minutes, lol)

[54:57] Charis: The conversation and controversy around Taylor Swift's new single and music video "You Need to Calm Down."

[58:32] Eugene: The role of merch bundling not only in Billboard chart placement, but also in artists' cultural influence on- and offline.

• See the multiple articles online on DJ Khaled vs. Tyler, The Creator for more context on the merch bundle wars.

[1:04:46] Cherie: YG Entertainment founder Yang Hyun-Suk stepping down, amidst a string of sex-related scandals in the K-pop world.

Subscribe to my newsletter for more conversations on big ideas and trends in music and tech:
bit.ly/waterandmusic

INTRO/OUTRO MUSIC:
WYL & Wun Two - "Kübla"
Spotify | SoundCloud | Bandcamp

FEATURED GUESTS:
Ben Gross — Chief Strategy Officer, Genius
Laura Kinniburgh — Head of Music Licensing, Genius

SHOW NOTES:

[2:34] Interview begins

[2:52] Overview of Genius' relations with publishers, songwriters and other players in the music industry

[5:45] Overview of Laura's background in music licensing and current role at Genius

[6:53] Types of licenses involved in Genius' online video series

[7:23] Relationship between Genius' industry relationships and the site's user-generated content

• As a senior in college, I made the Genius profile for the rapper Rekstizzy, which he got verified after the fact!
• Genius did not enable transcription IQ until 2017.

[10:06] How Genius approaches sharing advertising revenue with rights holders—including emerging artists without publishing representation or support

[12:21] Overview of Genius' partnerships and integrations with Spotify, Apple Music and YouTube

• Spotify's Behind the Lyrics integration launched in January 2016.
• Apple Music launched its own in-service Genius integration in October 2018.
• YouTube and Genius briefly tested a Song Stories feature in 2018.

[15:05] Genius' role as an advocate for publishers in their deals with streaming companies

[17:02] Impact of lyric integrations on lean-forward engagement and differentiation on streaming services

[21:16] Role of lyrics in voice search

• Amazon's Alexa devices enable lyric requests.
• Google Home launched a Genius integration in January 2017.

[24:40] Laura's role in educating up-and-coming and unsigned artists about how publishing and performance royalties work

[25:21] How Genius' "Verified" videos provide a source of publishing income for artists

[26:18] Whether Laura's job in music licensing has gotten easier or harder over time as technology has advanced

[27:36] New and unconventional forms of music and lyrics licensing

• Genius had to sign an "industrial license" for displaying lyrics from The Notorious B.I.G. at its Lyrics to Life event, hosted in partnership with Dropbox .

[31:00] Why music scares brands from a licensing perspective, and how companies like Genius are trying to help

[33:08] How users can experience lyrics as the first point of music discovery

[35:34] How you don't have to be interviewed in a "Verified" video to get paid by the series

• Ariana Grande gets paid publishing income for every view of the Genius Verified video for "Monopoly," which features Victoria Monét.

[36:45] How Genius recently reconfigured its approach to music licensing—in part because of Laura's background on The Tonight Show

[38:03] What tools and resources Laura uses to help streamline her licensing process

[39:45] The massive metadata problem for artists and how, if at all, Genius can help out

• Genius often gets requests from publishers for lyrics data, instead of the other way around! 

[44:23] Overrated/Underrated segment begins

[44:35] The ongoing wave of vague copyright infringement lawsuits from songwriters, in the wake of the "Blurred Lines" case

• Earlier this month, Chilean singer Jaime Ciero dropped his 2017 lawsuit against the Walt Disney Company, songwriters Kristen Anderson-Lopez and Robert Lopez, and performers Demi Lovato and Idina Menzel that claimed "Let It Go" infringed on Ciero's own composition.
• In June 2018, Bebe Rexha belatedly gave Shelly Peiken a songwriting credit on the former's song "I'm A Mess," because of a suspected interpolation.

[48:05] Mariah Carey is an underrated songwriter

• Genius honored Carey at their flagship "Levels" event in November 2018, and Carey did get nominated for the Songwriters Hall of Fame that same month.

[51:10] Fenty, Rihanna's new luxury house with LVMH

• I wrote for Billboard last year about Rihanna's accessibility- and diversity-first ethos in her previous fashion partnerships and lines
• Kanye West sold $50 church socks at Coachella in April 2019

Thanks for listening! :)

INTRO/OUTRO MUSIC:
"Muted Voices" by Landslide
Spotify | Apple Music
Licensed from Lickd—listen and license this track here
License ID: 4d328232aa4a4fb1845b1b8097aaaf8e

FEATURED GUEST:
Alex Bonavia
Head of Business Development at Wavo
Twitter: @A_Bonavia

SHOW NOTES:

[1:40] Interview with Alex begins

[4:54] Adam Alpert on The Chainsmokers' monthly release strategy in 2017: "The strategy works very well for streaming services, because they are getting regular content, and playlist editors can help you narrate that story month to month."
https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/dance/7718105/chainsmokers-manager-adam-alpert-interview-2017

[5:25] The newly-reunited Jonas Brothers released their two latest singles, "Sucker" and "Cool," within 40 days of each other:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnAmeh0-E-U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_JbZvHc92U

[9:15] An example of a label exec touting the power of building "career artists":
https://www.billboard.com/articles/business/8094078/2-single-release-strategy-music-industry

[12:55] I wrote for Billboard last year about whether labels should be concerned about Spotify's churn rate:
https://www.billboard.com/articles/business/8258220/music-industry-spotify-churn-rate-inactive-subscribers

[13:38] Splice raised a $57.5M Series C round in March 2019:
https://techcrunch.com/2019/03/20/splice-sample-marketplace/

[15:05] Alex's tweet about the rise of JVs:
https://twitter.com/A_Bonavia/status/1105205494170480646

[15:52] Managers like Jake Udell and Scooter Braun are starting their own labels in-house:
https://www.billboard.com/articles/business/8488954/artist-managers-launching-record-labels

[17:09] ODESZA's label Foreign Family Collective:
https://www.foreignfamilycollective.com

[17:45] RÜFÜS DU SOL launched their own label Rose Avenue in October 2018, which has a distribution deal with Warner Bros. imprint Reprise Records, according to metadata from their latest album on Spotify:
https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/dance/8478125/rufus-du-sol-rose-ave-label-cassian-lafayette

[20:50] W Hotels launched its singles label in October 2018, and has collaborated with the likes of Amber Mark and Perfume Genius:
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/w-hotels-is-record-label-now-too-732641/

[21:03] Red Bull Music Academy will be shutting down later in 2019:
https://pitchfork.com/news/red-bull-music-academy-and-radio-to-shut-down/

[22:08] Yes, KFC's Colonel Sanders did have a slot at the Ultra Music Festival:
https://consequenceofsound.net/2019/03/ultra-kfc/

[22:35] Mountain Dew's media & entertainment venture with Complex Media, Green Label, once housed the record label Green Label Sound, which collaborated with artists like Jay Electronica and The Cool Kids. The venture at large seems to be inactive today:
http://greenlabel.com

[22:53] More context on the multifaceted Kitsuné brand, co-founded by former Daft Punk manager Gildas Loaëc:
https://www.billboard.com/articles/business/8236269/kitsune-x-nba-new-standard-indie-label-releases-fashion-sports

[26:25] ALL the JVs!!
- Boominati Worldwide, Metro Boomin's JV with Universal Music's Republic Records: https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/hip-hop/7849328/metro-boomin-boominati-worldwide-label-bryson-tiller-tour
- Visionary Records, Visionary Music Group's JV with Sony: https://www.forbes.com/sites/ogdenpayne/2019/01/24/music-entrepreneur-chris-zarou-launches-new-sony-backed-imprint-visionary-records/#3abcd53c7485
- Palm Tree Records, a JV between Kygo's manager Myles Shear and Sony: https://www.billboard.com/articles/business/8478266/kygo-myles-shear-palm-tree-records-sony-music

[27:55] In 2017, Spotify's Director of Economics Will Page wrote an important analysis for Music Business Worldwide about why the arbitrary 18-month threshold for catalog marketing is no longer relevant in the streaming era:
https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.com/music-industrys-definition-catalogue-need-upgrade/

[31:54] Spotify automatically creates "This Is" playlists for artists on its platform, compiling and ordering songs in their catalog—e.g. this playlist for Anderson .Paak:
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/37i9dQZF1DZ06evO1VjTu8

[34:39] A designer and illustrator collaborated on a fun web app that automatically generates personalized festival lineups based on your recent listening habits on Spotify:
salty-beach-42139.herokuapp.com
twitter.com/cheriehu42/status/1116779941838958592

[35:43] More context on the power of fitness playlists, apps and studio companies in music marketing:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/cheriehu/2018/08/02/fitness-marketing-revenue-music-tech/

[36:03] My newsletter issue from September 2018 about the concept of "today's hit being tomorrow's niche," inspired by Chris Anderson's book The Long Tail:
https://www.getrevue.co/profile/cheriehu42/issues/today-s-hit-is-tomorrow-s-niche-132544

[36:21] MIDiA Research's Managing Director Mark Mulligan's blog post, "Kobalt Is A Major Label Waiting To Happen":
http://www.midiaresearch.com/blog/kobalt-is-a-major-label-waiting-to-happen/
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INTRO/OUTRO MUSIC:
"In All The Wrong Places" (Instrumental) by Kero One
YouTube | Spotify | SoundCloud

FEATURED GUEST:
Kero One, DJ/rapper/producer
http://www.kero1.com/

SHOW NOTES

[2:40] Interview with Kero One begins

[4:46] More context on the origin of the "Is this a butterfly?" anime meme:
https://www.vox.com/2018/5/15/17351806/is-this-a-pigeon-anime-butterfly-meme-explained

[5:45] Cartoon Network's Adult Swim is referenced several times in oral histories of lo-fi hip-hop—from its role in engineering the success of rapper MF DOOM, to its influence on other, younger producers and the emergence of nostalgia-driven audiovisual mixes on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVZcO6bcYqc
https://djbooth.net/features/2018-06-13-lo-fi-hip-hop-evolution
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/594b3z/how-lofi-hip-hop-radio-to-relaxstudy-to-became-a-youtube-phenomenon

[8:15] YouTube first launched its native livestreaming feature in limited beta in spring 2011, and waited until late 2013 to open up the feature to anyone with 100 or more subscribers:
https://youtube.googleblog.com/2011/04/youtube-is-going-live.html
https://www.theverge.com/2013/8/3/4586624/youtube-live-streaming-now-available-to-channels-with-100-subscribers

[10:50] I last interviewed Kero for a Forbes article in summer 2017, during which he shared how one of his biggest breaks as an artist came when underground DJs in Japan picked up copies of his 2006 project Check the Blueprints:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/cheriehu/2017/07/21/inside-kero-azures-old-school-new-blueprint-trans-pacific-vision-of-indie-rap/#7b1023aa2eed

[11:40] The New York Times published a fascinating multimedia article in February 2019 about the presence of Chicano/Chicana subcultures in Japan, including an interview with Japanese Chicana rapper Mona. To be fair, OC Weekly beat them to their own coverage eight years earlier:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/19/style/how-my-southeast-la-culture-got-to-japan.html
https://ocweekly.com/when-east-los-meets-tokyo-chicano-rap-and-lowrider-culture-in-japan-6573626/

[14:04] Links to Nujabes and Cradle Orchestra:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrO9PTpuSSs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cradle_Orchestra

[17:32] Passion of the Weiss' interview with Bas van Leeuwen, founder of record label Chillhop Music, in which he states that "we don’t want the music to be seen as a throwaway or interchangeable product. We want people to recognize individual tracks":
https://www.passionweiss.com/2019/01/16/lo-fi-hip-hop-chillhop/

[19:17] You can watch the first installment in Kero's career-driven video series on YouTube by clicking here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbCJmSmObuE&t=60s

[22:10] Kero's comments connecting EDM to lo-fi hip-hop in terms of both genres' dependence on playlists reminded me of this piece I wrote for Billboard last year about how some flagship playlists on Spotify were underperforming on engagement and conversion to artist fandom, despite having multiple millions of followers:
https://www.billboard.com/articles/business/8463174/spotify-playlists-engagement-analysis-study

[26:06] DJ Mark Farina has been commercially releasing a series of downtempo/chill hip-hop compilations called Mushroom Jazz since 1996. Here's a link to the second compilation in full on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6k0FlHGrZE

[31:06] Spotify's "Lo-Fi Beats" playlist currently has over 1.7 million followers; "Mellow Beats" has over 1.4 million followers; "Chill Lofi Study Beats" has over 400,000 followers.
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/37i9dQZF1DWWQRwui0ExPn
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/37i9dQZF1DX3qCx5yEZkcJ
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/37i9dQZF1DX8Uebhn9wzrS

[33:32] Links to the life and work of Sam Gellaitry, an electronic producer in his early 20s:
https://soundcloud.com/samgellaitry
http://stoneyroads.com/2018/03/getting-to-know-sam-gellaitry-the-producer-everyone-is-listening-to/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hwwl_5stL1M

[37:17] The resurgence of '90s references in fashion, music and other realms of pop culture is well documented:
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/13/t-magazine/fashion/90s-fashion-revival.html
https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/90s-obsessions-nostalgia-charli-xcx-768664/

[40:39] Vulture's Craig Jenkins dove into the rise of the "sad summer song" in 2018:
https://www.vulture.com/2018/08/the-saddest-songs-of-2018.html

[44:58] Overrated/Underrated segment begins

[45:25] Lil Nas X. Enough said. For more context on his viral, historic rise, and the technological and commercial forces that made it happen:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/11/arts/music/lil-nas-x-old-town-road-country-rap.html
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/04/lil-nas-x-was-a-popular-twitter-user-before-old-town-road.html
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/lil-nas-x-old-town-road-streaming-record-819468/

[47:08] More context on the "yeehaw agenda," a movement of people of color (particularly African A...