We Made This Political Podcast

Lura Forcum and Lauren Hall welcome Liz Joyner, founder and president of The Village Square, to discuss rebuilding civic trust and healthier public dialogue across political divides. Joyner describes launching the organization in the early digital era after seeing politics become “two angry tribes” and noticing a lack of physical spaces for citizens to discuss contentious local issues beyond op-eds or brief public comment. She explains how The Village Square shifted from fact-driven, HR-training-style civic engagement to hosting lively, food-centered events that build relational “glue,” drawing on ideas like Henrich’s WEIRD “spreadsheet brain,” Haidt’s moral foundations and “hive switch,” and Dunbar’s number. The conversation emphasizes working “upstream” from conflict through groupish, in-person connection, resisting ostracism, and creating proximate, participatory civic spaces that make people feel needed and included.

00:00 Welcome Liz Joiner

01:11 Why Politics Felt Broken

02:44 Building Civic Space

03:41 Beyond HR Training

05:19 Spreadsheet Brain Trap

07:25 Relationships Before Facts

09:57 Process Versus Trust

13:07 Groupish Human Nature

18:22 Upstream From Conflict

21:20 Cross Partisan Blind Spots

25:26 Human Nature 101

27:40 Ostracism Makes It Worse

29:15 Ostracism Fuels Extremes

30:04 Staying Close in Disagreement

31:22 Trust Builds Group Wisdom

34:05 Play Restores Civic Bonds

35:41 Carom Shots and Fun

36:46 Hive Switch in Action

40:22 Beyond Spreadsheet Politics

42:34 Inviting Everyone to the Table

47:04 Local Spaces Are Mandatory

49:01 Weak Ties and Modern Life

51:48 Feeling Needed Again

54:46 Optimism and Where to Find Liz

Resources: How to Find Liz and Other Cool Things

The Village Square

New Civic Future

Lauren Hall and Lura Forcum of “We Made This Political” interview Gabe Fleisher, founder and editor of the daily newsletter Wake Up To Politics, which he started in 2011 and now reaches tens of thousands. Fleisher explains how his interest evolved from campaigns to a focus on governmental institutions, process, and undercovered congressional work, and why independent newsletters and Substack enable niche, less conflict-driven coverage that mainstream outlets often won’t prioritize. They discuss how conflict-centered political news obscures bipartisan legislation and broad public agreement on many issues, while party elites can diverge sharply from party voters. Fleisher describes using skepticism, careful poll methodology, and cross-checking data, and addresses reporting on false claims without “both-sidesing.” He shares cautious optimism about rising bipartisan work, populist overlap, and tools like discharge petitions, and directs listeners to wakeuptopolitics.com.00:00 Welcome and Introductions00:58 Gabe’s Origin Story02:50 Mainstream vs Independent Paths03:54 Covering Nuance on Substack07:31 What Drives His Reporting09:17 Journalism Not Advocacy11:17 Working With Data and Polls14:56 Bias and Staying Nonpartisan19:09 What Conflict Coverage Misses23:34 Hidden Consensus and Elite Gaps27:34 Moderates Misread28:18 Polling Forces Boxes29:25 Voters Aren't Unsophisticated31:46 Myth of Left Right33:04 Stop Dismissing Voters35:08 Calling Out Lies Fairly39:23 Outrage Distractions41:40 What Voters Prioritize44:40 Congress Gets Things Done48:10 Bipartisan Work Blocked51:08 Discharge Petitions Rise52:59 Optimism And Where To Find

In this episode of We Made This Political, hosts Lura Forcum and Lauren Hall talk with licensed social worker and faith leader Branden Polk about how algorithms, media, and politics encourage subjective “realities” that justify dehumanizing opponents, and how cross-ideological collaboration and virtue development can help people discern the objective. Using the Lindsey Clancy case—ending in a mistrial reportedly split 11–1—as a lens, they discuss failures in the legal process (including not sequestering the jury), gaps in postpartum and mental health care, and perverse incentives in criminal justice that prioritize winning over healing, accountability, and human flourishing. They argue that meaningful reform and nuanced problem-solving are more likely at local levels through community experimentation, while national polarization erodes institutional legitimacy and social trust.00:00 Dehumanization Online00:51 Podcast Introductions02:37 Brandon Work And Hygiene06:03 Beyond Intellectualism07:49 Clancy Case Setup09:18 Jury Mistrial Meaning13:54 System Incentives Broken17:39 Mental Health Court Gaps20:45 Justice Healing Accountability23:43 Local Solutions Hope27:50 Scaling Community Innovation30:07 Polarization Kills Collaboration31:20 Trust Collapse and Incentives32:37 Local Reality and Problem Solving34:29 Virtue and Human Dignity37:32 False Binaries and Complexity39:10 Projection to Purposeful Action43:26 Mattering and Social Media48:48 Presence Over Legacy53:11 Lindsay Clancy and Institutional Nuance57:54 Beloved Community and Closing

Lura Forcum and Lauren Hall host We Made This Political live on Substack with Nancy von Meyer, a land records, GIS, and property data systems expert and Pendleton Town Council member, discussing her forthcoming book Parcels: How Property Shapes Geography (co-authored with Jerry Poppendorff). Von Meyer explains parcels as the managed geometry of land and, more importantly, a “permission system” tied to zoning and rights, reflecting how societies govern and define community. The conversation covers historical land division from colonization and Revolutionary War land grants to ribbon farms, Levittowns, railroad checkerboards, and how parcels preserve history even as economies shift, using Detroit, Akron, and Rochester as examples. They address tensions between private property and public impacts, redlining, property taxes funding local services, growth-driven density and infill, data centers and “geocollaboration,” infrastructure feedback loops, and climate-change-driven coastal land loss and relocation, ending with optimism about the next generation and where to find the book at regrid.com/book.00:00 Welcome and Guest Intro01:21 What Are Parcels03:31 Parcels as Permissions06:34 Property Rights Tensions11:35 Land as Commerce Taxes14:12 Why Parcel Shapes Persist21:00 Updating Zoning and Density22:55 Detroit Redlining and Decline27:46 Railroad Checkerboard Legacy29:06 Land as Memory29:48 Parcels and Modern Crises30:59 Sea Level Losses32:30 Regressive Adaptation Costs34:22 Housing and Community Ties36:09 Relocating Towns Inland37:04 Road Shift Horror Story41:47 Who Pays for Safety42:50 Geocollaboration Framework44:44 Urbanization Strains Old Laws46:04 Property Rights vs Externalities48:39 Everything Is Up for Grabs50:08 Common Law Flexibility51:18 Redefining Progress54:42 Optimism and Where to Find

In this episode of We Made This Political, hosts Lura Forcum and Lauren Hall talk with Cliff Kayser of Polarity Partnerships about “polarity thinking” as an alternative to false either/or binaries in politics and organizational life. Kayser explains polarities as interdependent pairs (like inhale/exhale or activity/rest) that can’t be solved by choosing one side, but can be leveraged over time by maximizing upsides and minimizing predictable downsides using a five-step process: seeing, mapping, assessing, learning, and leveraging. They discuss common polarities in democracy (freedom/authority, justice/due process, diversity/equality, human rights/communal obligations) and leadership (confidence/humility, task/relationship), plus pendulum swings such as centralization versus decentralization. The conversation connects low trust to either/or thinking and explores how AI and social media reinforce binary thinking, arguing humans must ask better questions and develop adaptive, coaching-oriented skills.

00:00 False Binaries Explained

00:32 Meet the Hosts and Guest

02:06 Polarity Thinking Basics

06:50 Democracy and Leadership Polarities

11:23 The Five Step Polarity Process

16:05 Pendulum Swings in Organizations

23:31 Part Whole in Politics

29:08 Why Politics Goes Either Or

38:05 Trust as the Hidden Ingredient

43:56 AI Bias Toward Either Or

53:20 Optimism and Where to Follow

56:36 Closing and Credits

Find Cliff’s Work

Read his Substack Cliff’s Notes.

Connect with him at Polarity Partnerships here.

In this episode of We Made This Political, hosts Lura Forcum and Lauren Hall interview Grace Pate Pouch, author of Savoring Childhood: Practical Wisdom for Slowing Down and co-founder of Upstate Unplugged, about why childhood is “for being a child” and how modern life rushes kids (and adults) through it. They discuss instant gratification, fragmented attention, and disembodiment driven by phones, on-demand purchasing, and ed tech, arguing for intentionally “adding friction” through small, incremental choices that build patience, self-control, agency, and purpose. Grace connects slowing down to spiritual formation and civic life, emphasizing practices that develop the capacity to love, contribute, and respond well rather than merely knowing the right answers. She ends with optimism about Greenville County Schools’ new classroom tech limits and leaders publicly acknowledging overreliance on technology.00:00 Meet the Hosts01:12 Introducing Grace Pouch01:57 What Childhood Is For03:52 Why Life Feels Too Fast08:25 Adding Friction Back11:04 Attention and Presence15:15 Embodiment and Phones18:36 Analog Comeback22:47 Ed Tech Skepticism26:22 Institutional Pressures28:25 Culture and Agency30:27 Local Screen Advocacy31:46 Small Wins Mindset33:26 Spiritual Formation Focus37:11 Discipline Builds Freedom40:23 Slow Consuming Culture43:05 Participation Over Consumption48:16 Savoring Faith Through Play49:37 Struggle Grows Agency51:47 Counterpoints For Balance53:19 Where To Find Grace55:15 Optimism And Policy Wins56:24 Closing And Farewell

Additional Resources

“Mothers Are Not Machines” by writer Lindsey DeLoach Jones

Renovare Institute for Spiritual Formation

“Greenville County Schools Working to Reduce Screentime in Classrooms” — newspaper article on Rule 1A that Upstate Unplugged advocated to adopt

On We Made This Political, hosts Lura Forcum and Lauren Hall talk with sociologist Jess Lee (Cal Poly) about how the umbrella category “Asian American” was created as a post–Civil Rights political instrument to gain visibility and protection, yet can distort reality by centering East Asians, masking vast subgroup diversity, and limiting personal possibilities through stereotypes like the “model minority.” Lee explains how broad categories affect representation, resource allocation, and quantitative research, obscuring poverty, first-generation college needs, and shifting census definitions (including Middle Easterners being counted as white and many Asians reduced to write-ins). The conversation also covers interracial and interethnic dating as largely shaped by access and homogamy (especially socioeconomic), sex ratios in immigration flows, and how assimilation is increasingly seen as hybridization that reshapes what “American” means at the local level.00:00 Breaking Asian Stereotypes00:34 Meet the Hosts and Jess Lee02:19 Why Asian American Feels Messy07:04 Origins of the Asian American Umbrella14:25 Model Minority Myth Costs17:27 Who Counts as Asian22:20 Selection Effects and Stereotype Promise30:26 Measurement Problems in Research36:55 Interracial Dating and Homogamy49:20 Race Boxes and Census Confusion52:11 Assimilation and Hybrid America58:34 Local Hope and Closing

On We Made This Political, hosts Lura Forcum and Lauren Hall interview author and former Yale professor William Deresiewicz about his essay “Colleges Maybe Try Teaching” and the link between the decline of liberal education and liberal democracy. They contrast liberal education for citizenship with “servile” or purely utilitarian job training, arguing universities’ incentives—research pressure, credentialing, online instruction, politicization, and activism—undermine teaching and truth-seeking. Deresiewicz distinguishes citizens from activists, emphasizing shared political community, humility, patience, courage, and learning to be wrong, cultivated through seminar-style discussion and especially literature’s ability to build theory of mind and moral complexity. They discuss adult alternatives like The Catherine Project and the Matthew Strother Center for the Examined Life, and end with optimism that curiosity and hunger for deep learning are renewable.

00:00 Moral Maturity and Citizenship

00:37 Podcast and Guest Introduction

02:45 Liberal Democracy Meets Liberal Education

05:26 Servile Versus Liberal Learning

09:37 University Incentives and Research Overload

11:31 Politicization and Academic Conformity

13:52 Activists Versus Citizens

23:31 Virtues Learned in Seminar

27:11 Adult Great Books Alternatives

30:29 Reading Decline and Programs That Work

32:14 Seminar Teaching Magic

34:12 Why Online Learning Fails

36:52 The Real Cost of Small Classes

39:50 Credentialism and Teaching Reform

42:35 Mental Health and Fear of Wrong

45:06 Teaching as Craft Not Content

50:19 Literature Builds Theory of Mind

55:28 Tribalism and Moral Complexity

57:24 Wisdom and Living with Tensions

59:04 Hope and Where to Find Him

01:01:30 Closing Credits and Subscribe

Additional Resources

Bill’s website, where you can contact him, read his essays, and order his books

Social psychologist Michael Inzlicht’s substack essay, “My p-hacking felt like truth”

The website of the American Council on Education, which focuses on effective teaching’s impact on student success

Jennifer Frey on liberal education versus servile education

Lura Forcum and Lauren Hall interview Abi Olvera, writer of the Substack Positive Sum, about the “abundance” movement. Olvera frames abundance as “YIMBY for everything,” emphasizing prioritizing policies that materially affect people’s lives and improving state capacity by removing bottlenecks in housing, daycare, healthcare, workforce licensing, fire codes, and science funding. The conversation highlights examples like certificate-of-need laws and competitor’s vetoes that block new clinics and birth centers, occupational licensing that prevents mobility and locks out people with felonies, and regulatory regimes designed for large corporations that exclude small entrepreneurs. They discuss how debates over regulation often ignore counterfactuals (e.g., AI or safety vs no service), how scarcity thinking fuels partisan “bogeymen,” and how rebuilding public trust through responsive, outcome-focused governance could enable positive-sum progress.

00:00 Introduction and Welcome

03:13 Defining the Abundance Movement

06:00 Certificate of Need Problems

08:52 Expanding the Abundance Agenda

10:34 Occupational Licensing Barriers

12:28 Fire Codes and Safety

13:50 Regulation Debates and Frameworks

16:55 The Counterfactual Problem

18:48 Scarcity vs Abundance Politics

21:11 Government Trust and Efficiency

23:11 Positive Sum Thinking

25:59 Making Abundance Motivating

27:56 Working Class Perspectives

30:50 Funding the Abundance Agenda

31:36 Distinguishing Protections from Obstacles

33:38 Improving Laws and Regulations

36:02 Learning from Missing Data

37:09 Fire Safety Paradox

38:32 Corporate Bias in Regulations

41:57 Gaming the System

43:19 Human Flexibility in Government

44:46 Building Trust in Systems

46:32 Responsive Government and Trust

48:56 Government Success Stories

51:10 Local vs Federal Incentives

53:22 State Department Resilience

55:36 Optimism and Closing Thoughts

Lura and Lauren host a duo episode of We Made This Political on what holds a country together as the U.S. marks the Declaration of Independence’s 250th anniversary month. They argue politics should be understood as relationship and shared flourishing, not winner-take-all power, warning that Pyrrhic victories undermine the ability to live and govern together. Hall contrasts national dysfunction with local communities where people quietly maintain civic life, sharing stories about preserving a historic home and restoring an old cemetery. They discuss Hall’s “running democracy on volunteers” theme, the “heroism tax” on underpaid, undertrained small-town mayors, rising threats and harassment, and county clerks caught in national election battles. They link polarization to social sorting and tribal identity, and suggest local conflict-management training and institutional neutrality policies to keep symbolic national fights from capturing local governance.

00:00 Politics As Relationship

01:34 Podcast Premise And 250th

03:10 Founding Community Over State

05:22 Local History In Action

08:50 Growing And Tending Communities

11:44 Volunteer Democracy And Mayors

13:28 Heroism Tax In Boroughs

20:35 Clerks Elections And Pay

24:54 Support Systems For Local Roles

30:31 Winner Take All Spiral

32:17 How Polarization Sorting Happened

33:41 Identity Threat Politics

35:39 Myths About The Other Side

37:19 Breaking The Sorting Cycle

39:42 Beyond Winner Loser Thinking

42:43 Local Governance Lowers Heat

45:50 Tools For Town Boards

49:19 Rebuilding The Leadership Pipeline

51:46 Influencer Politicians Rise

57:12 Rewarding Deliberation Again

59:10 Finding Hope Locally

01:04:13 Closing And Next Episode