April Wang, a second-year student studying physics and integrated science, hosts the “Weinberg in the World” podcast and interviews Mike Forman, a 2012 Northwestern graduate and senior managing director at Blackstone. Mike shares how his studies in MMSS and economics, along with his involvement in a fraternity and the Kellogg Certificate Program, were formative experiences. He discusses how these experiences, along with internships and networking, led him to a career in finance and his current role at Blackstone.

Transcript:

April: Welcome to the Weinberg in the World Podcast, where we bring stories of interdisciplinary thinking in today's complex world. My name is April and I am your student host of this special episode of the podcast. I'm a second-year student studying physics and integrated science, and I'm looking forward to learning more about our guest's career. Today I'm excited to be speaking with Mike Forman, who graduated from Northwestern in 2012 and is now senior managing director at Blackstone. Thank you, Mike, for taking the time to speak with me today.

Mike Forman: Thank you so much for having me, April. Northwestern is a near-and-dear place to my heart, so I'm excited to chat with you.

April: Excellent. To start us off today, I'm wondering if you could tell us more about your time at Northwestern as an undergrad. What did you study, and what were some impactful experiences for you that led to your current career path?

Mike Forman: Yeah, yeah. Good question. I went to Northwestern from 2008 to 2012. I majored in MMSS and economics, and I also did the Kellogg Certificate Program. I was in a fraternity and made a bunch of lifelong friends who I'm still very close to today, so those were super impactful and formative. I would say MMSS definitely was the hardest academic experience I ever had. I think I learned a bunch of things from that. First of all, it was hard but it was also incredibly rewarding. I think maybe another reminder or one of the better lessons I've learned along the way of most things that were really difficult that I went through, I looked back on fondly and are pretty formative experiences that help you become who you are. That was definitely the case with MMSS. It gave me a really interesting framework to interpret the world. What else was impactful experiences? Well, hugely impactful in terms of how I ended up on my career path. I went to Northwestern, and I knew I wanted to work in business after school. But it was that vague, in terms of what I ... That was as crystallized as the idea was in my mind. I went to school, and some friends and friends of friends, I started to appreciate a number of the people who felt like were thoughtful and focused on the career they were going to have after school, started to see what they were interested in and what they were doing. A number of those people were going into either finance or consulting. That got me just interested in the finance world and investing, understanding what they did, they gave me a bunch of books to read, things like that. I ended up doing two internships my sophomore year for a prop trading firm in Chicago and also UBS. Then my junior year, I was planning on going into investment banking because that's what I think a lot of, I don't know, the people I respected and looked up, that's what they were going and doing after school. I think I was looking on it, it was called Career CAD at the time, which was Northwestern, where you used to find jobs, whatever.

April: Okay.

Mike Forman: I don't know what it's called today. I saw a posting for a job at Blackstone as an intern in their real estate group. I actually remembered one of my friends, he was a couple of years older than me who was also in the same fraternity as me, or had been, was working at Blackstone. Oh, I'll give him a call. I called my friend Dave Levine. I was like, "Hey, do you like your job? Do you think I would like your job?" He laughed and he was like, "Yeah, I think you would. You should apply." I had this vision in my mind of going and working in investment banking and this opportunity popped up with Blackstone, which is a real estate private equity role. I ended up interviewing, getting a job offer. I wasn't specifically interested in real estate, but I felt like everyone I had met really enjoyed what they were doing. They were super active, getting things done. They were good people. I decided to try it out. I was an intern in 2011. Then I ended up joining full-time since 2012. Actually, I've been here since I graduated, so I've been here for almost 13 years now. That was not exactly my plan coming out of school, but it's been a really fun adventure. It's changed a lot over time, too.

April: Yeah. It's really tricky to figure out what you want to do, especially in college, but I'm glad it worked out.

Mike Forman: Totally.

April: Yeah.

Mike Forman: Totally.

April: Then you spoke a little bit about some of your biggest challenges turning out to be the most rewarding, which I think leads well into the next question. Which is what are the most challenging and rewarding aspects of your current job?

Mike Forman: I'll start with maybe some of the most rewarding aspects, and maybe I'll tie it back to some of the challenging equals rewarding later. I would say the most fun part of my job, and this organization, and the people we get to work with both inside and outside of Blackstone are getting to work with really talented, smart, hard-working, but also kind and considerate people. That's why I'm still here I think and that's pretty special. That's the most rewarding aspect, call it the people element or the human element. Besides that, look, I think investing is super fun. It's a combination of, I don't know, treasure hunting and building things. It definitely scratches my curiosity itch. I love to learn, I love to read about new things, trying to understand and form a view around where the world is going. Investing definitely, definitely scratches that itch. I've always loved technology, so my career, what I focused on has evolved a little bit over time. I now oversee our digital infrastructure investing around the world on behalf of our real estate business. We're building a bunch of really large data center businesses. By getting to focus on technology and really understand it deeply is fascinating and super fun. It feels like we're building the future, building the brain if you will. Dynamics have changed a ton. Okay, let's tie it back to the challenging part. I think one thing I came to appreciate working here is to be excellent is hard. Even if you're smart and capable, and whatever, you also just have to try really hard. Not just for a year or two, for many years. That is, I don't know, just getting a little bit tougher almost. And actually embracing that and leaning into it, maybe that's the most challenging aspect is just the hard work it takes to do a good job. But it's also something I really love about this place. I feel like there's a lot of people around me, they're smart, kind people, like I said, but they also work super hard. It's invigorating but it's not easy.

April: That's great. Yeah, I totally agree with that. Speaking of challenging aspects of your job, how well did college prepare you for those aspects and for your career in general? What would you say was the most important skill or lesson that you learned from undergrad?

Mike Forman: I would say the most important lesson, it was the toolkit. It was learning how to learn. I guess I've come to appreciate why a liberal arts education is amazing more as time has gone on. It's funny. I told you I wanted to go into business. At a certain part I was like, "Oh, I should go to a business school," undergrad. I'm so glad I didn't because I've been in business school since I graduated in a way. I'm really happy that I had the opportunity during college to, yes, take some economics class. But also, classes like game theory and strategic interaction, a framework to think about strategic interactions. And also, classes like Russian literature that are philosophy and pull your brain in a different direction, and give you a totally different lens to look at and think about the world. I think really, just the skillset, the tools to learn, that was a really important one. Then the second one is, I would say when I first went to Northwestern ... I would say before I went to college, I had a bad habit of procrastinating.

April: Me, too.

Mike Forman: Which I'm sure everyone can relate to a bit. But I realized that if I wanted to do well in school, and have a social life, and be able to do a bunch of other things, I needed to get organized and not procrastinate, and make the best use of time. That was a really important skill that I learned in undergrad that I'm appreciative I got a little bit of a wake-up call there almost to really be efficient and figure out how to make the most of my minutes.

April: Yeah, definitely. That Russian literature class you mentioned, it's actually still really popular here. I've heard a couple people that are in it and they really enjoy it still.

Mike Forman: Oh, it's incredible.

April: That's really interesting. Yeah.

Mike Forman: It's incredible. It's one of my favorite classes I ever took in school.

April: What was the biggest adjustment that you had to make going from college to industry?

Mike Forman: It's funny. I guess I just said something similar, but I think time is probably the big one. Making the most of your time. It's funny. I say I went to school and I had to start getting a little bit more organized, not procrastinate, really get my work done, et cetera. At times, it feels like you're almost short on time, I guess especially during finals week or whatever, when you're cramming for whatever's coming up. When you start working, you have a lot less time. I guess with the benefit of hindsight you're like, "Oh wow, I actually had a lot of free time during college." You just have a little bit more time and space, et cetera. That I think really changes and it forces you to make even better use of your minutes. Become more efficient, become more focused. And also, just appreciate the time that you have. For example, I think you have more time just to have fun and go enjoy yourself during school. One thing I appreciate is okay, maybe I'll only go do things with my friends during the weekend or not as often during the week, but I actually really savor them. That's a little bit of, I guess a tweak mentally, that is definitely an adjustment going from college to industry afterwards. I'm trying to think what else? That's probably the biggest. That's probably the biggest.

April: Just out of curiosity, what were some of the fun moments you had with your friends or some things that you look back at fondly now?

Mike Forman: Oh my God, there's so many. It's funny, I have this video reel playing in my head right now. It was everything from literally first days at school, I made a handful of friends through whatever random adventures we were up to, and a number of those stuck for forever. I still work with some of this people, which is kind of cool. One of my best friends from school who I lived with for a couple years works at Blackstone nowadays, which is pretty cool. I would say everything from we checked out a ton of music, we explored Chicago. We ran all over Northwestern, I don't know, playing Frisbee in the great lawn, or whatever adventures around the lake we got up to. I don't know, there's almost too many to count. But I would say I got to meet and know a number of people, they were both smart and hard-working, but also really interesting and fun. I almost feel like previously in my life, I had to choose one or the other a little bit. I don't know, that was my favorite part of school, probably.

April: Definitely. Friends are great.

Mike Forman: Yeah, friends are good.

April: Yeah.

Mike Forman: A lot of good music and food in Chicago too, so that's always nice.

April: Yeah. Well, how have you approached that worklife balance, like balancing friends and going out and having fun and then school work? Or now that you're in industry, how are you balancing worklife balance in your career?

Mike Forman: Yeah. I guess it comes back to, I feel like I'm talking about time a lot, but just being focused and trying to make the best use of your minutes, that's key. Okay, if you're going to be working, be focused, get it done, do the things that you need to do. But also, I think you need to make space for fun in your life. Working hard is very fun, and also super rewarding and energizing. But also, making time for the other things that you love to do is super nourishing and makes it all really sustainable, and I don't know, ties it all together. For example, I love to surf. Even though I got lots of stuff going on, I've always been able to find a way to fit that into my life, go on cool trips, and get better over time. I love to do yoga and meditate. If you make sure you prioritize and make space for the things that you care about and make you happy, first of all, you can fit them in. But also, if you are happy and you are enjoying yourself, it's infectious. It's the point almost of everything we do. I think you need to prioritize it. By the way, also just spending quality time with family and friends. That's, I don't know, super important. Look, there's this tension. I guess I've come to appreciate hard work is actually pretty cool because as you keep at it, you get more knowledgeable, you get better at it. That's this feedback loop, it's a little bit of a flywheel that's rewarding. If you make no space for the other things that you enjoy and your family and friends, I don't know, what's the point of that? I think you do need to prioritize and make space for it, but then try to keep it all in balance and trying to squeeze the most juice you can out of the time you have I guess is what it all comes down to. I will say, I think that, as you have to make more of the time or as you feel more and more stretch, I do actually feel like you come to appreciate things a little bit more deeply, which is pretty cool.

April: Yeah, definitely. Are there any things that you wish you had done more or, or maybe even less of in college?

Mike Forman: That's a good question. What do I wish I did more of? I would say, look, what would I tell myself then? I would say this time in school and in academic setting with all these incredible intellectuals, it's like a wide menu of things that you can go to a bunch of subject matter experts to and really learning a ton about. And actually, more time to go be curious and see what interests you, or learn about this thing or that thing. I would say really push yourself and take the hard classes that stretch your brain or that intrigue you. I think sometimes there is a little bit of this tension where it's like, "Okay, I'm going to take these hard classes I have to, and then I have some space here, I'm going to take something that is a little easier." Maybe there's a couple cases I could point to for myself where I was like, "Shoot, I actually wish I took that really hard foundational science class," or whatever, because I'll never take it now. It's actually pretty cool if you have a good, good foundational understanding of some of these topics. By the way, I don't know, I guess personally I wish I took more classes on philosophy. Maybe that was one of the things I loved the most about the Russian literature classes.

April: Yeah.

Mike Forman: I think it's what interests you, and then really go for it. Don't try and take the easy path, I guess.

April: Well, I guess we've talked a lot about your college time and things that you wish you had done differently. What's one specific piece of advice that you would give your past undergraduate self?

Mike Forman: I would say ... What advice would I give myself? Look, I guess I've said this already, but really take advantage of a liberal arts education. Do not focus on one thing. By the way, it is such a good opportunity to get this broad understanding of the world, and again, a bunch of different ways to look at it. Really take advantage of that and don't get sucked into a vortex of being like, "Okay, I need to do exactly this thing." Then also, be a little bit flexible in terms of what it is you think you want to do after school. I had a little bit of a sense, but I let the exploration path of trying to find a job shape what it was that I wanted to do a bit. Just be receptive to, I don't know, friends. I don't know, just be receptive to where the process guides you a little bit. The most important thing is what you do and where you do it matters, but who you do it with is so important. Probably more important. Really being excited about the people that you get to work with is totally key longterm. By the way, keep in touch with your friends from Northwestern. I know it's easy, but they go on and do pretty cool things. They've got a lot of really smart people. By the way, it builds on itself over time as their careers go on. Stay in touch with people and understand what they're up to. And by the way, stay in touch with the school. I'm so grateful for the experiences I had at Northwestern and how it set me up for the rest of my life. It's super fun and rewarding to, A, go visit campus. B, spend time with students when I can, understand what's going on at the school. I don't know, I guess that's a couple pieces of advice, but it's what comes off ...

April: Yeah, Northwestern has a great alumni network. We get to talk to people like, so that's pretty great.

Mike Forman: Oh, it's awesome. Yeah.

April: Yeah.

Mike Forman: When I was looking for a job for example, Northwestern's alums, they were so helpful. They dropped whatever they were doing and be happy to help and provide advice, et cetera. Then afterwards, there's lots of cool things that I've been able to get involved with over the years.

April: What's something that you are looking forward to going forward, now that you're working and out of college? Something exciting?

Mike Forman: What's exciting that's coming up? I would say personal life, I got married-

April: Congrats.

Mike Forman: ... last January.

April: Wow!

Mike Forman: Thank you. Thank you. It was actually our one-year anniversary yesterday, which was pretty cool to celebrate.

April: Oh, wow. That's so fun.

Mike Forman: I think that's something that's exciting. Family life I guess, that'll be a fun adventure ahead. That's one area. Then in terms of work, I love getting to spend a ton of time in the technology world and the companies we're getting to build. We've got the largest and fastest-growing data center platform around the world, which is an awesome opportunity to learn, to build, and to get to work with some super fascinating people. I'm really excited for what's in store for this year, and getting to travel around the world and learn a ton about different markets, different cultures, all that good stuff. I've always loved to travel. Traveling in a work context, sometimes it can be a little intense and the timezone changes are tricky. What a cool way to understand other cultures and get a true experience. When you go and visit somewhere as a tourist, you check out the sights, try the restaurants, which is awesome. But that's not really what people who live there do every day. They go to work and do things. It's a pretty cool and authentic way to get a taste for different places around the world.

April: What are some of your favorite places that you visited?

Mike Forman: Last year, I got to spend a bunch of time in Tokyo and Australia, which were both incredible places. Totally different, but both pretty incredible and really fun to visit. Those were up there. I always love going to California.

April: Yeah.

Mike Forman: I'd say Europe as well, there's a bunch of pretty cool ... There's so much history and the cities are beautiful, and a little bit cleaner than New York which is nice, too.

April: That's pretty exciting, getting to travel. That's fun.

Mike Forman: Yeah, it's super fun. It's awesome.

April: Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you so much for talking with us, and for sharing your advice and your experience in undergrad. Yeah, just thank you for joining us today.

Mike Forman: Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me and be well.

April: Of course. Okay, thank you for listening to this special episode of the Weinberg in the World Podcast. We hope you have a great day, and go Cats!

Mike Forman: Go Cats. Bye-bye.

Aimee Resnick, a senior at Northwestern University, interviews Steven Preston, CEO of Goodwill Industries International, on the “Weinberg in the World” podcast. Steven reflects on his time at Northwestern, highlighting his major in political science and his transformative junior year in Munich. He also shares how his unexpected passion for statistics influenced his career in investment banking and leadership roles. 

Transcript:

Aimee Resnick: Welcome to the Weinberg in the World podcast, where we bring stories of interdisciplinary thinking in today's complex world. My name is Aimee Resnick and I'm your student host of the special podcast episode. I am a senior studying social policy at Northwestern University who plans to pursue public administration in my home state of Colorado. Today, I'm excited to be speaking with Steven Preston, who is the CEO at Goodwill Industries International. Thank you, Steven, for taking the time to speak with me today.

Steven Preston: Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to it.

Aimee Resnick: Me too. To start us off today, I was wondering if you can tell us a little bit more about your time at Northwestern as an undergraduate in terms of what did you study and what were the most impactful experiences for you that led you to your current career path?

Steven Preston: Yeah, so I was a political science major. And Northwestern, it was kind of a big thing for me. I kind of grown up in a medium-sized town up in Wisconsin and going to Northwestern kind of introduced me to a whole new world that I didn't even know existed of people from different places and that type of thing. I'd say there are two things, a couple of things that were really important. Number one is I was actually a poli-sci major with an international politics focus. So number one, it gave me a perspective on the world and how the world operates, which is something I didn't have as an 18-year-old coming to college. Number two, I took that further and I actually did a junior year in Munich program, and this was before the wall had come down, so east, west. International relations were what really defined kind of the global dynamic. So it was just a remarkable opportunity to study with different people in a different language right on the border of what was kind of definitional for international politics. And that year, I felt like I kind just burgeoned intellectually and academically and personally. The other thing I would say, that may not be what most people would expect, but I took a statistics class and I loved it. And I took more and I took more and I took graduate statistics classes and I became kind of like a quant poli-sci major. And that really was valuable for me because it was a way through which I could marry a topic that we think of as not being very quantitative and do a lot of research within political science using statistics, whether it was voter trends or national expenditures and how that relates to different government structures. And that became really important to me when I went into investment banking. I got an MBA in finance and [inaudible 00:02:38] Wall Street, and the ability to connect data with what felt like qualitative issues was really definitional to my path forward. Later, I became a CFO and a CEO and for the rest of my life, I really connected those two concepts in a way that was really powerful for what I was able to do professionally.

Aimee Resnick: Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing your response. And I think it's really fascinating how you were able to take a lot of the skills that you gained at Northwestern in your more non-traditional courses like statistics and apply them to a more impactful career pivot later in your life like we typically encourage at Weinberg. So thank you for sharing that experience.

Steven Preston: Yeah. Well, I'll tell you, it's one of the requirements I have for my kids is they all have to have some proficiency in statistics now. So yeah, it's become multigenerational.

Aimee Resnick: I'm sure they love that requirement. I say as someone who's not the biggest math person ever. But I'd love to hear a little bit more about your current career right now as well, as the CEO of Goodwill Industries. And I noted in your video introduction to the 2023 annual report for Goodwill, you mentioned that Goodwill is about possibilities of hope for the people who receive services. And in that same report, you described how over 140,000 people found new employment after receiving services through your organization in workforce development. So I was wondering if you could just tell us a little bit more about how Goodwill promotes economic opportunity across the United States and why that mission particularly resonates with you.

Steven Preston: Yeah, so the people we serve are not the people that you're going to college with right now. 83% of the people we serve are people with a high school degree or less. In fact, about a third of the people never finished high school. And many of these people have other challenges in life. Some of them have gone down very difficult pathways, people coming out of incarceration, people who are experiencing poverty, even people who are experiencing homelessness. And what we often do in society is make assumptions about those people and make assumptions about what's possible. And we sort of relegate them, in many cases, into a category of, well, that's kind of who they are and that's what their life is going to be like. But the truth is that embedded in every one of those people is a massive amount of potential and talent. And in most cases, and I really say in most cases, those are people who, because of opportunities they've been given or not given, because of their circumstances in life, because of their pathways, have never been able to develop those capabilities. And in fact, have never really known how to, because they didn't have access to good education, they weren't surrounded by people who could give them advice. They didn't really know what the possibilities were. So what we do is we work with people to sit with them and say, "What are the possibilities for your life? And how do we help you get there?" So one of the most important things we do when somebody comes to us is really do an assessment of what their skills are, what their hopes are, but also what their challenges are. A lot of times, their challenges might be training or skills related, but they also may have challenges with behavioral issues. They may be, many of them don't have housing or have insecure housing. Many of them don't have core financial skills, so they know even how to get through life with a small amount of income. So if we can work with people to help them stabilize those sort of personal aspects of their life, at the same time that we can provide them with skills that are attractive to employers, we can help them move from a very difficult place to a place where they are flourishing and where they have a fundamentally different future, and a future that allows them to take care of themselves and grow and learn much more. What we often find is once we've supported somebody and they land that first job and they're successful and they see the people they work with and what the possibilities are, it's not just that their lives have changed to get to that job, it's that the trajectory of their life has changed because many of those people begin investing themselves, learning more, getting better jobs. And then the other great thing is it's often multi-generational because their kids benefit, or if they don't have kids and they had them later, they benefit. And it really breaks a cycle of poverty and brokenness that's very difficult to break. And that's why we talk about the possibilities and we talk about hope because that's really where we live. For me personally, I came from what I would call pretty humble background. So I think just in a couple of generations, I've seen what education and opportunity has done for me. But I think on a bigger scale, I've lived in a number of major cities early on, when I was in my 20s, I spent a lot of time in tough neighborhoods in New York working with kids in difficult situations and trying to help them move on. So I feel like I've seen it up front in what's possible. And then when I worked in the government, I was the secretary of Housing and Urban Development, and that is really the federal agency that deals mostly with poverty issues. And seeing intergenerational poverty and seeing people unable to do something about it is a sort of a dispiriting situation, and I believe we can do something about it. And really, Goodwill I think is, well, I know Goodwill is the largest nonprofit that is trying to change the landscape for many of those people, and hundreds of thousands of people find a different opportunity because of us.

Aimee Resnick: I think that's a really excellent transition because I actually do want to talk to you a little bit more about your experience with housing and urban development. So for context, in 2008, you were nominated by President George W. Bush to serve as the secretary of the US Department of Housing and Urban Development. And I'd just like to hear a little bit more about how you started this large career in public service, and then a little bit potentially about how your public sector experiences under George W. Bush have shaped your approach to private sector leadership in your current career.

Steven Preston: Yeah. So I think one of the important things was I spent almost 25 years in the private sector before I went into the government. So I had been an investment banker, I had been a CFO, I had been a corporate leader. And I say that because many times, young people coming out of college will say, "I want to go into nonprofit, what do I do?" And one of the first things I say to people when they come to me is, "Think about the early part of your career especially as a time where you are learning and growing and developing and getting the skills you need to be effective later in your career." And many kids, many people will go in a nonprofit and have a wonderful career. But I had 25 years in the private sector to prepare before going into the government and later into nonprofit. And those skills, both as somebody with an MBA and somebody who grew up through the corporate world, have been incredibly valuable for me in my career. So I want to mention that. So the first thing I did when I went into the government is I ran the Small Business Administration and the Small Business Administration makes loans to people who've lost their homes in a national disaster. And I came in after Katrina and most people hadn't gotten their loans yet. So I applied those skills from the private sector to figure out how to fix the operational and technology and financial issues to accelerate loans to people who needed to rebuild after the disaster. So toward the end of my tenure at the SBA, the housing and financial crisis was mushrooming. And because of the experiences I had as a banker and a CFO and the experiences I had in working in a federal disaster, the president asked me to go to Housing and Urban Development to work on the housing crisis. I give you the background because that's how I got there. I got there because my experience and my background were sort of uniquely prepared me to be able to do that. I would not be a typical HUD secretary because I didn't have a poverty housing background, but I understood financial markets. I understood operational fixes. I understood national crises and media by that point because you do a lot of... You're on television a lot, you're dealing with Congress. So I was uniquely qualified to do this for that time in history, which was the financial crisis. So one of the greatest things about serving in these situations was the, and I really do, I think it was incredible blessing to be able to serve in a crisis because when you're in the middle of a crisis, people need leadership, they need people who can pull them together to fix the problems. People want to be part of a team that's doing something great. And if you're successful, a ton of people have seen their lives improved, whether it's an ability to rebuild their home after Katrina, in the financial crisis, whether it's the ability to stay in your home if you're being foreclosed, or we were able to rebuild public housing in New Orleans, and sort of the two came together. The public housing had been destroyed in Katrina. And when I came to HUD, we worked on rebuilding it. So if you have that opportunity, even though it's extremely stressful to work in a crisis, you also have an opportunity to have a very big impact. And you have an opportunity to have sort of restorative or a kind of healing impact on an organization that's in stress. So it really hits on a number of different levels. It comes with stress, but it also comes with what I would say great blessing and great opportunity, both for the people you're serving with and the people who benefit from this service. So that was really what that felt like. And then the other part of that is it wasn't just about housing. Some people who know about that era of history will know what the acronym TARP stands for. TARP was a large allocation of capital that the federal government made to support housing and the financial system. That money ended up going into financial institutions to save them. And I was on the board of the TARP with Secretary Paulson and the head of the Fed, Ben Bernanke and two other people, which sort of put me right in the center of seeing what was happening across the financial sector around the world and how we were going to work to save it. And that was just, it was a remarkable time. I think it was terrifying for many people because we saw what could happen if the world financial system was going to break down. And thankfully, it was averted, although there was just a massive impact from the financial fallout, really from early to mid 2008 going into well into 2009 before things started to recover.

Aimee Resnick: Absolutely. And that actually brings me to something I'm very curious about, bringing you back to your poli-sci roots. A lot of young people today kind of feel a large sense of distrust in the government, especially on campus at this time, which I've seen some people describe as a new type of political crisis, almost like that you experienced back in the Katrina era. And I'm curious, what steps did you concretely take to rebuild trust, and in particular with the Small Business Administration, because it was somewhat disoriented when you began? And how do you think that can be applied to the current context?

Steven Preston: Well, so first of all, yeah, trust has been declining in federal government for a long time, and I think we're absolutely at a nadir right now. And for me, it's very distressing to see, because I think there are good reasons for people's concern. But it's also really important for people to believe that if they go into it, they can make a difference. What I did when I went to the SBA, I found... One of the biggest benefits I had is I'd never been in the government, I didn't really know how it worked. They brought me in because I knew finance and I knew operational change and they wanted things fixed. And I got brought in and sometimes I would say, "How do I do this?" Or, "We want to fix this and this is how we're going to do it." And people would say, "No, you can't because there's a regulation or a law and you got to do it this way." And I'd say, "That can't possibly be true." There's nothing logical about my having to do that to make this decision. But yeah, well, it's a law that's been on the books for a long time. So one of the benefits I had is I came in and I needed to know how it worked, but I didn't need to be overly shackled in how I did this. So when I first got nominated, so before I even got to Washington, I was in the George Bush administration and a lot of Republicans were kind of briefing me. And the Democrat head on my oversight committee was John Kerry at the time. He had just lost the election for president. And they were the committee that the Senate does the nomination, they were the ones who were going to approve my nomination. And I just said, "Well, nobody... I'm not talking to any Democrats. Why..." So I called up the people briefing me and I said, "I want to talk to John Kerry's chief of staff." And they're like, "Why?" I said, "Because I'm hearing what you guys are saying, but I don't..." I know I'm a Republican nominee, but I'm not like a super partisan guy and we're all trying to fix this problem. I want to hear what they're saying. And as a business person, the first thing I'm thinking is you hear from all your customers, you hear from all your stakeholders, you want to build the first... So I talked to her and she was really surprised, and she kind of gave me her thinking on it. Once I got to the administration, I said to my team, "We're all about transparency. I'm going to invite the Democrats to do briefings on how we're doing fixing this problem." And they said, "Well, no, you're going to give them fodder to come against you in the press," and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, "We all want to fix it, right?" So I started holding briefings at the SBA office on the measures we were taking to fix the problem, the data that we were seeing on how big the problem was, once we started fixing it, the improvements. And I actually became very friendly with the teams on both sides of the aisle. When I got nominated for the HUD job, I needed to get confirmed by the Senate. By that time, the Senate was Democrat and I was a Republican nominee. The two most important reasons I got through that nomination process quickly were John Kerry and Dick Durbin, who was the number two person in the Senate. He was head of my appropriations committee. And the reason was because we were completely transparent with their teams. We worked with them very closely. We had them over for briefings. And we developed those relationships because they trusted us. So what I would say is you can be somebody who works both sides of the aisle. And by the way, most of the time, as an agency head, most of the time, you're going to be working on issues that aren't necessarily big political issues. You're serving people, you're trying to improve something. You've got a program that you maybe want to tweak to make it better. And when we go into a situation assuming that people are going to attack us and be against us, sometimes there's a reason for that, right? It is pretty fiery. But I think we have to go into it saying, "Let's win them over." Let's help them understand that we're all trying to get to the same place. We might disagree on the best way to get there. And most of those people just want to do their jobs really well and be part of something good. So some of my fondest memories were working with people really on both sides of the aisle. And I'm very grateful I had the opportunity to do that. And we probably see less, it felt like it was really kind of fighting all the time back then, but oh my goodness, it's at a whole different level now. And I also think President Bush was very focused on bipartisanism. He did a lot of work with people on the other side of the aisle. The financial rescue package was very much negotiated with both sides. Believe it or not, back then, he had negotiated an immigration bill that was more heavily supported by Democrats and Republicans. But because of an impending election, a lot of people didn't feel comfortable supporting it because they were concerned about winning re-election. But many of those things were worked on with both sides of the aisle, even though there were plenty of partisan politics at the time as well.

Aimee Resnick: Really, I like that idea of having optimistic view towards bipartisanship and hopefully seeing that expand into the future in the next decades as a way to build public trust. I absolutely agree, that's critical. And I think we'll move on to our last question because I recognize we're coming up on our time, but I want to ask you, what do you wish you could tell yourself when you were me, a senior who's interested in public service and policy, who's about to graduate? What do you wish you could say to that 22-year-old version of you?

Steven Preston: So yeah, it's what I tell people. I've had a chance to talk to students at Northwestern a couple of times, not recently, but I've talked to a couple of classes with Diane Schanzenbach who's on the policy side there. And I've spoken at a couple of other schools. And I tell them, one of the pieces of advice I give is very consistent. You all are really smart. You are getting a great education. You are learning critical thinking skills. But our society is very much about groupthink. And when we see the political divide or the divide on policies, you don't hear a lot of talk about the deep research on one side of the policy or the other. And we see it actually in Congress. I think we've seen fewer deep policy thinkers than we did 10 years ago, or certainly 20 or 30 years ago. So my encouragement is, even if you have strong views on something, challenge them, look at the data. And in the area that we focus on is a perfect issue. Why do we have intergenerational poverty? What will change it? What really has to happen? And when you think about where that debate lies, it's pretty fiery, and you've got all sorts of people fighting about these issues. But we don't have nearly enough people saying, "Let's look at the data on what really helps somebody." You guys are in Chicago. What really helps somebody who's a little boy or girl who's born in the Austin neighborhood of Chicago or some other tough neighborhood? What are the factors that make it very difficult for them to have the kind of life that most of the people you go to college have? And what can we change in that person's life? Whether it's the kind of schooling they get, whether it is the kind of family support they have, whether it's the protections we give them. Whether it's when they come out of high school, if they do need a little bit of support to get on the right track, how do we do that? What kind of youth... What truly does it take to help a person flourish in society? Or in our world, somebody who's coming out of prison? We have all these big narratives. You guys are the ones, because you're super smart, you got a fantastic education, you're taking statistics, like I recommended, you can dig deep. And when you see something where you say, "I need to challenge my thinking. I know I've been telling myself this, but I actually don't see this. Or I think I need to understand it deeper." We need deep policy thinkers. And the other thing is, if you're going into business, everybody's going to say find the right solution and see the data. But in the policy world, a lot of times that stuff doesn't happen to the degree that it needs to. So use that great education and be rigorous, be tough thinkers, ask tough questions, even if it takes you to a place that maybe doesn't align with what you think is the case today, because that's what's going to help us have a better world. And you know what? Those are the conversations we need to be having across the table from each other. We can be having rigorous arguments about the right policy decision, but if we're going to do it, let's look at the facts and let's really pressure test those because that's what's going to help us all have a better world.

Aimee Resnick: Thank you, I really appreciate that idea of having Northwestern graduates go out into the world and just make it a better place. That's very encouraging.

Steven Preston: Well, I love Northwestern, and I don't live in Chicago anymore, so I'm sad that I can't go to those games and go to the concerts on campus and talk to students as easily as I used to. But I just think it's a terrific place, and thank you for giving me an opportunity to chat with students indirectly.

Aimee Resnick: Oh, of course. I think with that, I will say thank you to our listeners for listening to this special episode of the Weinberg in the World podcast. We hope you have a good day. And as Steven just mentioned, go Cats.

Steven Preston: Go Cats. Take care.

Preena Shroff, a third-year student at Northwestern, hosts the “Weinberg in the World” podcast and interviews Joel Meek, a 2001 graduate. Joel, who recently served as VP of finance and operations at Reddit, discusses how his studies in economics and mathematical methods shaped his career. He emphasizes the value of a broad education, mentioning impactful classes in astronomy, psychology, and Japanese. Preena and Joel highlight how Northwestern’s interdisciplinary approach teaches students to think critically and approach problems creatively.

Transcript:

Preena Shroff: Welcome to Weinberg in the World podcast where we bring stories of interdisciplinary thinking in today's complex world. My name is Preena Shroff, and I'm your student host of this special Weinberg in the World episode. I'm a third year student majoring in neuroscience and global health with a minor in data science, and today I have the pleasure of speaking with Joel Meek, who graduated from Weinberg College in 2001 with a bachelor of arts in economics and mathematical methods in the social sciences. Joel most recently was the VP of finance and operations at Reddit, a community platform where users submit content and share advice for other members. Throughout his technology career, Joel has led functions across sales, operations, business development and finance. Joel, thank you so much for being here with us today.

Joel Meek: Very excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Preena Shroff: We are so excited to learn about your work in technology, but would love to start out with how your career path was shaped by your time at Northwestern. So maybe if you can tell us more about your undergraduate experience. What were some impactful classes, extracurriculars or maybe even mentorship experiences that you had, which impacted your postgraduate career?

Joel Meek: Of course. Yeah, so I think as you mentioned, my major at Northwestern was economics and mathematical methods in the social sciences. I'll start with the economics. Actually, it was really helpful for me in studying both macro and microeconomics to just get a broad view of how the economy works. How does things like the money supply affect inflation, employment, GDP growth? Why are some industries more fragmented than others like the restaurant industry or why are some products more price sensitive than others? I can't say that I use sort of economic theory directly in my day-to-day career, but it definitely shaped my perspective when thinking about different business challenges in my business career. And then with mathematical methods in social sciences, this is really a very data centric major where you're looking to apply your knowledge of math to a social science. And so actually my senior year I did a thesis that was similar to the movie Moneyball with Brad Pitt and I looked at which baseball players yielded the best bang for the buck. So really bringing that sort of background to the business world and being able to break down problems was really helpful. And then I think last, just being part of the College of Arts and Sciences, it was awesome to really just get a broad exposure to a wide array of topics. I still remember taking my astronomy class and just learning about the universe and how it was formed or taking a psychology class, which has helped me better understand the inner workings of the mind and how people work. And I took Japanese, which eventually led me to go living in Japan for a year after college. So I think in total, when I really think back about Northwestern, it was building that curiosity and that love of learning that's really helped me take on new challenges once I graduated.

Preena Shroff: Wow. Yeah. Thank you. And I think something that a lot of students here at Northwestern maybe aren't able to experience just yet but kind of have an idea is that these classes are teaching students how to think as opposed to exactly what you're going to require in your career. It's more about how to approach problems and how to develop from that. So thank you for sharing that.

Joel Meek: Of course.

Preena Shroff: So now moving forward a little bit beyond Northwestern, what led you on your career path? So which skills would that be, interactions or experiences that you were able to build up that have been critical in your field today?

Joel Meek: Yeah, so when I graduated Northwestern, I honestly didn't really know. I knew I wanted to do business, but I didn't really know what type of business I wanted to do. So I ended up choosing banking and consulting as my first two jobs out of college. And it was actually a really good first couple jobs to do out of college because you really get a 30,000-foot view of the business world. I got to work across a ton of different industries and work on a ton of different problems, and I learned a lot about myself. I learned that I really liked numbers and finance, but I wasn't really into the 80-hour weeks of the finance world. In consulting I loved the business problem solving of consulting, but I really wanted to be the decision maker actually owning the decisions. And so I ended up transitioning into technology, which was really exciting because all the innovation that was happening, and I moved into more of an operator role, which I ended up doing for the past 16, 17 years in technology. I think the skill that was probably most important that I got from Northwestern that I was able to apply to my career was really just, I mean you mentioned it, just problem solving. In the technology space in particular, things are moving very quickly and often there is not a blueprint for how to solve a problem because it maybe hasn't been solved before. I can think of a time when I was at Pinterest and we had millions of users on the site and we had a challenge with a lot of spammy content on the site, people that were trying to get click baited into clicking through the links and then trying to take advantage of people. And so we only had a small team because Pinterest was, when I joined, was still less than a hundred people, and we had to figure out how to clean up this site that had millions of users so that they didn't have a bad experience. So there was really no playbook for how to do that, and you just had to really approach the problem from first principles and break it down. And I think that building that skill set through really helped me later on in my career.

Preena Shroff: Yeah, absolutely. And I think actually I wanted to ask you for a follow-up on your discussion about that pivot point from investment banking into the tech industry. I know students nowadays go in with a mindset of whichever career they're looking to get into, they want to make sure they're very well-prepared beforehand. And sometimes I guess a pivot isn't something you can always plan for. My question is, do you think a student today who might encounter this sort of pivot or maybe is trying to plan one thing and ends up might changing? Do you think it's still possible to have that kind of career switch today? Or what advice would you give to a student who's maybe unsure about that decision?

Joel Meek: You can definitely make career switches. I probably made four or five career switches in my career from right out of college. I was in banking, then I went to consulting. I ended up jumping to work for Google where I worked in their Google cloud division when cloud computing was taking hold in an operational role. And then my boss gave me an opportunity to move into sales, and then I jumped into some startups. I went to Pinterest, I went to Reddit, eventually ended up running finance at Reddit, was my last job. I would say that if I think about just my path, I would do a lot of moonlighting. I would do a lot of just researching the place where I wanted to go or the new function I wanted to go into. I would meet with people, I would just try to be a sponge and soak things up as much as possible. And what I learned was that it can be difficult to make a career switch, because people will look at your background and say, "Well, how are you relevant for this job?" But what I learned is it only takes one. You only need one person to be willing to give you a chance. And I was fortunate to have a few moments in my career where someone was willing to take a chance on me, and then it's up to you to prove that you can do it. So I definitely would not hesitate if you're interested in making a career change. Just go for it. Just start learning as much as you can about that path that you want to go. Eventually, if you keep trying, you'll get there.

Preena Shroff: Yeah, thank you. That's great advice. And I know you brought up Pinterest and Google. I actually wanted to ask you, having been closely involved with building up a developing company or at least a department within each of these last three companies, Google, Pinterest, and Reddit, how do you manage conflicting priorities between growth and sustainability? So by that I mean just company growth and also making sure it's economically stable, everything's on track.

Joel Meek: Yeah, it's a great question. I think it's really going to be very company dependent, and it's also probably going to be dependent upon the stage of the industry in which the company operates in. I can start off with Google. I joined in 2007, and this is when cloud computing was the buzzword. Before that everyone was using Microsoft Office, Windows, Excel, PowerPoint on a desktop, and we were providing that all in the cloud at a much more affordable price. And we knew we had a critical window where we could get market share. And so really the focus was really on, at that point, growth. We had our eye on profitability and sustainability always, but really we felt like this was important enough for Google as a company that we wanted to grab market share. When I was at Pinterest, I joined in 2012. Again, it was about less than a hundred people at the time, the giants were Facebook and Twitter, and they had many more users, a lot more employees, a lot more capital. And we knew, again, we had a short window to get market share. And so our focus was really on growing our users and growing our revenue. We had our eye on the unit economics and we wanted to make sure that we could get there and we knew we did, but we were willing to pull forward some investment and be less profitable in the short term to get growth in the longer term. And I'd say the same thing was true at my experience at Reddit as well. So in all three of my experiences, it was really around growth in the short term and then flipping the profitability in the long term.

Preena Shroff: Okay. Yeah, for sure. And thinking about how would you make that kind of decision? What about a company and where it is in development lets you decide between profit and making that shift?

Joel Meek: Yeah, I think it's going to be a function of the industry that you're in. What is the competitive landscape look like and how important is scale? And we knew that it was only going to be a handful of players in this cloud computing space really serving these wholesale applications like email, docs and calendar. And so it was our moment to really sort be that option that people went to, and then if we didn't, someone else was going to go there first. So I think in other industries, maybe it's more fragmented, maybe there's less competition. Maybe you have a competitive advantage over the competition where you're able to charge more and you can focus a little bit more on profitability. But it's just going to be, I think, specific to each company and industry that they're in.

Preena Shroff: Is there any job that you've felt gave you a full circle moment back to your time at Northwestern? Maybe any experiences like that?

Joel Meek: Yeah. When I was at Google, one of the first things I was asked to do is to help bring Gmail calendar, Google Docs to the universities throughout the United States.

Preena Shroff: Oh, wow.

Joel Meek: And so we were looking for a few brave souls to be some of our initial customers. And actually Northwestern was one, I think maybe the first university, if not one of the first five universities to use Gmail calendar and Docs. I remember we had a whole campaign to get the students motivated to switch over. We called it Kid on the Bus and we painted a school bus and we drove it to Evanston and I sat, I think in front of the Rock, it was handing out flyers to tell people all about Gmail calendar and docs. Credit to Northwestern. They were pioneers in adopting new technology. And that was a really cool full circle moment to bring that stuff that I was passionate about back to the campus.

Preena Shroff: That's a great memory. And I know you mentioned earlier that you wanted to get or be more of the decision maker in your role. And so I was wondering, since Northwestern from graduating from Northwestern to all the way to today, how has your leadership style evolved over time, whether it be decision making or just working in a group setting?

Joel Meek: So directly out of college, I think I was much more of an informal leader. I was an individual contributor. So it was more about leading through example, working hard, being a part of a team, prioritizing integrity in everything that I did. It wasn't really until I entered the tech industry that I became more of a formal leader. I was actually quite fortunate. The division in Google I joined was led by Sheryl Sandberg, who later became the chief operating officer at Facebook. And she placed a really high premium on attracting talented leaders as well as investing in leadership training for junior managers like myself. So it was really valuable. I got frameworks around how do you hire A players, how do you organize and structure your team? How do you set strategy and goals? How do you execute? How do you run one-on-ones, deliver feedback, how do you promote, how do you fire people? I didn't know any of that. And I got a really good education in my first job in technology at Google. And then through that, I over time learned what kind of leader I was. I learned about what I was good at, and actually I learned about what I was not good at. And from there I learned to play to my strengths and then build a team around me where I was weaker. For example, I was always really good at structuring problems and creating process for us to scale things to really, really large numbers. But I wasn't the most creative person in the world, so I'd always make sure there was people on my team that would be able to bring new ideas. I think it's really when I understood who I was as a leader and what I was good at, that's when I was actually most successful in my career.

Preena Shroff: And I think it's really incredible that you've been able to find so many mentors along the way. And even within Northwestern, I know students are always seeking mentorship, whether that be from alumni, their professors, anyone in the industry they're interested in. Do you have any advice for finding mentorship or is it something you seek out or something that can just develop over time?

Joel Meek: Whenever I was choosing a new job, whether it was in banking or in technology at Google, Pinterest or Reddit, I was not just looking at the job I was going to be taking, but I was looking at who I'd be working for because your boss is someone you're going to spend a lot of time with. And I was very fortunate to have a few really great bosses across my time at specifically Google, Pinterest, and Reddit. And I learned a ton from them, and it really shaped who I was as a leader. So I would just say as you're jumping into the working world, have a really focused eye for who your boss is going to be. Make sure that you gel with that person. Make sure you think about, "Okay, what can I learn from this person? How can I grow with that person?" That will be almost as important as the job that you pick.

Preena Shroff: Okay. Yeah, for sure. And then taking a pivot here, I guess for those of our listeners who are interested in working in the tech industry, what is the common misconception about working in the industry that you would like to debunk?

Joel Meek: Maybe a common misperception is that either it's like everyone's working on the next big thing or everyone's going to get rich quick. The reality is that even for the next big thing, there is a lot of very routine day-to-day mundane stuff that's required to make that happen. And it ends up adding up to something amazing, but it's just like every other job, there's going to be that methodical day-to-day work that you got to do. And then in getting rich quick, most companies, most startups don't succeed just statistically speaking. And so I think it's an amazing experience. It's where I've pursued most of my career, but I think if you're doing it just for the money alone, it's probably not going to work out. You got to really just love technology and love being a part of that startup culture. I think that's going to probably breed more success than just going there to try to make money.

Preena Shroff: Yes, for sure. That's great advice. And then I actually have one more question and then I might do some follow-ups based on everything. But I guess in terms of career overall, are there any obstacles or challenges that you've overcome? I remember you mentioned in Pinterest there was difficulty dealing with scammers or something like that. So anything like that, like a challenge, an obstacle, and then did your time at Northwestern impact your approach to solving this problem?

Joel Meek: Yeah, honestly, I would speak to my career. I think the biggest obstacle really was just getting doors opened. And I still remember at Northwestern, applying for those, for example, banking and consulting jobs. Thankfully there was an amazing career center at Northwestern, but I think I ended up doing 30 to 40 interviews. And I can't say that my success rate was good, but it only takes one. And thankfully I was able to get the job that I eventually took and had a good experience from that. So I would just say be very entrepreneurial and opportunistic about going for the thing that you really want. And I think building up an ability to take rejection is actually a really important skill because I probably was rejected way more times than I was accepted to things. But what I found was whatever the next thing I wanted to do in my career is that as long as I kept swinging, eventually a door would open and I'd be able to jump through it and have success.

Preena Shroff: Yeah, it seems like a theme. Only one door, only one person, and then you can get to where you are.

Joel Meek: Exactly.

Preena Shroff: Yeah. No, that's really great, and this is really insightful and super helpful I'm sure to all the students who are a little bit nervous about starting their careers as I am in my third year, just kind of looking towards the future. It's very daunting just to be like, "It's about to happen now." So it was really nice speaking with you about that.

Joel Meek: Thank you. It was really nice talking with you as well.

Preena Shroff: Thanks so much for joining us today. Have a wonderful day, everyone. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Weinberg in the World.

In this episode of the “Weinberg in the World” podcast, student host Smera Dwivedi interviews Katrina Gentile, VP and head of global strategy at Wella Company. Katrina, a Northwestern alum, shares her career journey from consulting at BCG to various roles in the beauty industry, including a long tenure at Estée Lauder and her current role at Wella. She discusses her passion for problem-solving, her transition from consulting to corporate strategy, and her interest in the emotionally driven beauty industry. 

Mirabella Johnson: Welcome to the Weinberg in the World podcast, where we bring stories of interdisciplinary thinking into today's complex world. My name is Mirabella Johnson, and I am your student host of this special episode of the podcast. I recently graduated from Northwestern's undergraduate Cognitive Science and Global Health Studies programs housed in Weinberg. And I'm currently continuing my education at Northwestern in the Accelerated Public Health Program to obtain a Master of Public Health degree through Feinberg School of Medicine's program in public health. Today, I am very excited to be speaking with Shruti Mehta, who is a Dr. Charles Armstrong Chair in epidemiology, and professor in the Department of Epidemiology at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. Thank you so much, Shruti, for taking the time to speak with me today.

Shruti Mehta: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.

Mirabella Johnson: Likewise. All right. So to start us off today, I'm wondering if you could tell us a bit more about your time at Northwestern as an undergraduate, what you studied, and what were the impactful experiences for you that kind of led you to your current career path?

Shruti Mehta: Yeah, so first, I guess I would start by saying that I absolutely loved my time at Northwestern. They were some of the best years of my life, from not just the training that I got, but to the friends that I made, to spending time on that beautiful campus that I still miss. So when I started at Northwestern, I think the only thing that I really knew or I thought was that I was going to go into medicine. So I started with the pre-med curriculum. My father was a physician, and so I had this really strong desire, I think, instilled in me by him to serve. And honestly, other than that, I didn't know very much. I liked biology, I liked math, and so I got kind of started in the pre-med curriculum. I started in chemistry and a really advanced calculus class. And interestingly, my RA my freshman year was also pre-med. But one day I remember going to see her in her room to ask her a question, and she was painting. And she was actually an Art Theory & Practice major. And I had loved art in high school. I was always painting or drawing or creating, but I never thought of it as a major option for me. But it was really meeting her and so many others that were doing really diverse things at the time that I was at Northwestern, that led me to declare Art Theory & Practice as my major in my sophomore year. And I would just say that I'm forever grateful for that. It definitely changed my life. I didn't end up being a physician, and I'm not a practicing artist, but I would say that both of those things play a huge role in how I approach my work. Other things at Northwestern that were impactful. I think one of the great things was just the diversity that I was surrounded by, and it's not just the diversity and who people were or where they came from, but it was what they were doing and what they were interested in. I had friends that were in the engineering school. I spent a lot of time in the Tech building, but I also had my pre-med friends. I had a lot of friends who were artists from my major, and then I had friends in Radio/TV/Film in Communications. And it just exposed me to so many different perspectives, and I think also made me realize that anything was possible.

Mirabella Johnson: I love that. Yeah, that is so interesting. I have some similar experiences where there was a time where I really thought I was going to pursue medicine, and then everything gets really stressful at Northwestern as I'm sure you're familiar.

Shruti Mehta: Yes, yes.

Mirabella Johnson: And there are so many other ways to be involved in the field, and art is something I'm also passionate about. I loved painting, loved drawing, grew up performing. So that's not what I did for my majors, but I stayed involved with it through activities. And Northwestern is just such a great place, in my opinion, for exploring so many different paths. So thank you so much for sharing that. That's awesome. Kind of going off of that, with that all in mind, can you share a bit more on how you ended up landing in public health, and knew eventually that this was the field for you?

Shruti Mehta: Yeah, no, and I think you said it well, right? There are so many different ways to be engaged in the field of health and medicine. And I think when I was an undergrad, there wasn't really public health as a major. Well, there certainly wasn't at Northwestern. There wasn't the major that you were, that the minor that you have. And most schools, I think it was probably very rare. I think many people found their way to public health much like I did, going through the medicine route. I don't think I knew what public health was. In undergrad, I don't think I knew what epidemiology was. Like I said, I chose pre-med because that's what I knew, and many people in my generation chose that if you were kind of interested in science and math, and you had that desire, you were medical school bound. So when I graduated, I did apply to medical school. I didn't get into the schools that I wanted to go to, and honestly I wasn't sure because I had this art side. I found myself applying to medical school, but also looking at advertising jobs. And I was a first-generation Indian American, and kids didn't take time off after undergraduate, you went straight into a serious career or you went into a graduate school program, but I really just needed some time. And the way for me to get that time was to find a job and live in Chicago. And so I was pretty scrappy, knocked on doors, the medical school, because I wanted to stay in Chicago. And I thought that the way to do that and the way to kind of figure out if medical school was for me was to do research. And so I didn't find a posted physician, so I literally knocked on doors. I knocked on doors, and I made phone calls because that's what you did at that time. And I met this assistant professor named Mary McDermott, who took a chance on me. She didn't have a job, she didn't really have an opportunity listed, but I think she saw some potential in me, and she hired me to be her research assistant. And I eventually became her research coordinator, I worked for her for two years. I think I started making 850 an hour. And she was doing studies in congestive heart failure and peripheral vascular disease. And I started off just seeing study participants and conducting assessments on them. But I was just hungry to learn and to go beyond just kind of recruiting and seeing participants. So I found myself looking at the data, asking questions. She kind of taught me how to ask those questions, how to answer those questions. I started learning how to do analyses, design research protocols, and then I just wanted to be better at my job. So I asked her about courses, and I found a clinical epidemiology course at the School of Medicine, and I took it. And at the same time as I took that class, another faculty member that I worked for, Joe Feinglass lent me his copy of And the Band Played On. And that is a book that chronicles essentially the early days of the AIDS pandemic, the HIV pandemic. And I'd say it was those two things that kind of together led me to public health and epidemiology. So the clinical EPI course, it just bit. You know when you take a class, and you're just like, "Oh, this makes sense. I get this." It kind of brought together everything that I liked and everything that I was good at, elements of problem-solving, asking questions and answering them. It still had that quantitative side, but in many ways, EPIs, we live in the gray. So it's a little bit of an art as well as a science. And then I was working cardiovascular disease research with Mary, but the And the Band Played On kind of got me interested in HIV. And it was really that it was not just the biology of the virus and all the questions that were unknown at that time, but it was the social issues, the structural issues, and the kind of interplay between those different factors. And so with that, I found myself applying to master's in public health programs, and that's landed where I am today.

Mirabella Johnson: That is amazing. And I will say Dr. Feinglass is actually one of my professors.

Shruti Mehta: [inaudible 00:07:48]

Mirabella Johnson: So him and I are working together on some research potentially for the impact of reforming policing and gun violence prevention, since that's my past. And I also work in behavioral health as a behavioral support specialist. So talking about trauma-informed approaches rather than this tactical approach that really can blow things out of proportion when you're doing mental health and wellness visits. Or even just intervening in a crisis.

Shruti Mehta: Absolutely.

Mirabella Johnson: Which is awesome.

Shruti Mehta: Oh, I love that. Yeah.

Mirabella Johnson: Yeah, he's really, he's great.

Shruti Mehta: Small world.

Mirabella Johnson: Yeah, it is a small world. And I was going to say, I also just worked on a project for one of my classes on congestive heart failure and the low-sodium diet. Because there's surprisingly a small amount of research for how effective the low-sodium diet actually is for congestive heart failure management in terms of symptoms, and morbidity, and mortality. So we were working on that paper literally last quarter.

Shruti Mehta: Oh, that's great. Were you collaborating with folks at the School of Medicine as well?

Mirabella Johnson: Yeah, yeah. Actually, the majority of my professors in that class were through Feinberg, but then they-

Shruti Mehta: Feinberg, okay.

Mirabella Johnson: ... in ISGMH, so the Sexual and Gender Minority Institute.

Shruti Mehta: Okay, okay.

Mirabella Johnson: And they were a wealth of knowledge as well. They were awesome. But I definitely resonate with that, especially as an individual starting out in the field. And I'm sure also it will resonate for so many other students as the interest in Global Health Studies and the related concepts of public health have really, I've seen continue to grow amongst our undergrads, myself included. So with that being said, as someone currently getting an MPH, what encouraged you to then pursue a PhD?

Shruti Mehta: Yeah, I think it just wanted more. The expression, sort of, "The more you learn, the more you realize you don't know." I still think I sometimes feel that same way. But I will say, and I say this often that, "When I came to Hopkins, I was going to get my 11-month MPH, and I was headed back to Chicago." I loved Chicago, and that was my plan. But I think that I realized that I wanted to lead work, right? I think there's a lot of things that you could do with an MPH, and you can be a part of incredible work, and people lead programs, but I wanted to lead my own research. I wanted to build my own program, and I wanted to be able to ask my own questions and figure out how to answer them. And I just realized that I had kind of only scratched the surface of what I needed to know to do that with my MPH. And so that was the reason why I stayed to do my PhD.

Mirabella Johnson: Yeah, that's awesome. Super helpful. Thank you for going more in-depth about that. So I'm actually from the Chicago and suburbs myself, so I'm kind of in the same boat where I'm very much so on that track, right?

Shruti Mehta: Yeah.

Mirabella Johnson: I want to stay in the city, and there's so much work to do here. But I also like the idea of potentially doing research. So I'm very grateful to be getting my MPH right now. I knew this is what I want to do, but I've also thought about potentially going for a PhD as well. So that just provides me a lot of food for thought personally.

Shruti Mehta: And I think it's great to get that experience in between. I think it can be really just being on the other side now and mentoring PhD students, we see a lot more, and we actually require work experience and see that people who come in with that work experience, that helps to really inform their questions, right?

Mirabella Johnson: Yeah.

Shruti Mehta: So they come in with a lot of questions, and we help to give them those tools to help to teach them how to answer those questions.

Mirabella Johnson: Exactly. Yeah, that's awesome. So tell me a bit more, if you don't mind, about your current projects as well as any future aspirations or goals for your career personally, or for public health as a whole, which is a very-

Shruti Mehta: Big question.

Mirabella Johnson: ... big question. But I'll let you take it away.

Shruti Mehta: So there are a lot of research projects that I'm involved right now. I would say that one of the things when I became chair, so I started as chair in June. And I kept getting asked at that time, and I continually get asked now, "What are you going to give up? What things are you going to stop doing?" But I still find my research really fulfilling and an important part of what I do. And I'd say my whole career, I feel like you answer one question, and then that question leads to the next question. And that's kind of how my career has really developed. I trained as an observational epidemiologist like many do. It was about following people over time, understanding the burden of disease, why some people had morbidity and mortality rates that were higher than others. What were the risk factors for those things? All with an eye of how we intervene, but really the focus was on those observational studies. And my work is always centered in populations that have particular barriers to engaging in services, that we have to prevent and treat predominantly infectious diseases. So a lot of my work is focused on people who inject drugs, men who have sex with men, transgender persons, again, groups that bear a really high burden of infectious diseases, but have these challenges to accessing care. So I spent my early years trying to understand why this is, why were there these barriers to care, what were the challenges people were facing? And then honestly, the past 15 years, we just couldn't observe anymore, we had to actually do something. And so we've learned how to design, implement, evaluate interventions to really support engagement in treatment and prevention services for HIV, for hepatitis C that I also studied. We have incredible tools to prevent and treat infection, but people don't necessarily access them the way that they should because there are challenges with both in their own lives, but also with the systems that deliver them. So I do a lot of work in Baltimore, I also do work in India. And really it's been about exploring different creative interventions to improve engagement. Everything from giving people actually incentives to engage in HIV treatment, right? To say, okay, we know that a person loses daily wages to actually go to the clinic to get treatment in India. So can we actually compensate for that and then improve outcomes? Another project that I'm involved in is actually trying to change the way we deliver services. So in many of the countries where there are large HIV programs, free treatment is delivered through government centers. But they're government centers, so some of the populations that I mentioned don't necessarily feel comfortable going to those government centers. They want to get their care in the community, and they have other needs beyond HIV. So it's about thinking about how do we combine the services that a person needs in a person-centered way, not a disease-centered way, and deliver them from a center that they want to go to and that supports all of their needs? And so we lead a lot of large-scale trials to evaluate how those different types of interventions work in communities. I think you also asked about future aspirations. So for me, it's really about leaving something better than when I came to it. So I'd say that's true for the department that I now lead, as well as the research that I do. I just hope that someday something that I do leads to a big change and impact, and changes people's lives. And so for me, everything that I do, whether it's about the research that I do, or it's, again, my administrative work, it's about people first. That's kind of the place that I want to have impact. And then for public health, that's a bigger question. I think that I look for us to have the courage to ask the big questions, the hard questions, and find the innovative ways that we need to, to answer them. To collaborate across other disciplines and other fields, kind of reach outside our comfort zone, and then hopefully speed up the pace of what we do. I think one of the challenges is the world is moving really quickly, technology is changing, but the pace at which we're able to do things is challenged. So again, just trying to find ways to overcome some of those barriers in our own field, and being able to think big.

Mirabella Johnson: That is truly amazing and inspiring. And I think you've already made a huge impact. I am really, really in awe. That's amazing. Yeah. Wow, I'm kind of blown away [inaudible 00:16:06] you. Which I expected, but I just-

Shruti Mehta: [inaudible 00:16:09], yeah.

Mirabella Johnson: Really happy to hear that. And I also follow a very similar mantra where that's kind of why I decided on public health was, I care about people. I want to make the world or the place that I'm in somehow a little bit better than when I got there. That was how my parents raised me to be as a person. And I think that drew me to public health. And for anyone listening, I just took a course last summer in the public health program at Feinberg for LGBTQ+ Health. And even as an ally and someone very familiar with the intersectional challenges that that community deals with in public health, I really learned so much from that course. And Dr. Lauren Beach, who is truly amazing, they're a wealth of knowledge as well. And a little plug there, but it was such a great course, and you got to work with a community partner. So it really helped solidify what I already knew, which is I love public health. But when you're working with people and like you said, with their challenges, understanding their challenges and meeting them where they're at, to get them to a place that's either better or good for them. A lot of times, that's not happening. So congratulations on all of your accomplishments and contributions to the field really. Going off of that, you had a great transition. So I'd like to ask you to think about everything you know now and what you've done, and kind of bring it back to the undergraduates who may be listening, be thinking about their future directions. So at NU, like we talked about, Global Health Studies offered as an adjunct major or minor in Weinberg now, which is wonderful. We just celebrated, I think 20 years, the program. And that's what drew me to Northwestern. I knew after going to community college to save money during COVID, that I loved Northwestern, I'm from the area, and also I loved public health. I got to take an EPI course at my community college. So thinking about your own work on US public health issues, but also internationally, which is amazing. Do you think Global Health Studies would've been of interest to you in undergrad if it was available? And can you also speak a little bit to the value that you think Global Health broadly has brought into your efforts and your insights as a professional in the field?

Shruti Mehta: Yeah, I would say 5000%. If it was offered, it absolutely would've been of interest. And I think it's really special for me that the major's there and that you're going through the MPH program. When I was leaving Northwestern for Hopkins, they were just starting to think about the MPH program. At that point, it was going to be a four-year program, and that was part of the reason I didn't stay because I needed to finish quickly. It was in its early stages. So just the idea that that program is so vibrant, and now there's an undergraduate program is so special to me. So I would've definitely been interested in that. I think it's exactly the kind of thing that I would've been looking for. Again, like I said, it didn't exist when I was there, but I think that we see that so many of the people that come into the field now, people that come into the MPH program or come into the PhD program, are coming from that public health undergraduate background or Global Health Studies major. And I think it's great because they've got this additional preparation for the field that they're eventually going to be in. So I think it's fantastic. In terms of global exposure, I would say that I, even before I started working, it's something that's been a part of my life since I was a child. My parents were immigrants. They lived between two worlds. I was a first-generation kid. We went back to India, their entire family was there. We went back to India every two to three years for my entire childhood. And so for me, that was critical to my upbringing because I was exposed to two cultures my entire life. And it gives you this perspective, not just the challenges of this society that you live in, but the challenges around the world that other people face. And that really shaped me, broadened my worldview. And I think it's important for everyone because we are a global society. I think COVID taught us that, right? We already knew that, but COVID amplified it, we are interconnected. What happens around the world affects us here at home, so we have to care. And I think global problems and challenges are our challenges, right? Obviously that exposure to India as a child has been instrumental even to shaping my career. I chose India to work in very deliberately. But having these experiences working both locally in Baltimore and then globally in India, I've been asking similar questions in different places for many years. And what's kind of fascinating is there's huge differences, obviously between the two setting. But I'm always struck by how many things are similar for the populations that I work with and the questions that I answer, and some of the lessons that can be translated from one setting to another. I think we often say local to global, and try to take lessons from the US and apply them elsewhere. But I'd say it's as much global to local as well, right? So my work in Baltimore informs my work in India, but equally, my work in India informs my work in Baltimore. And so I think just, again, having that broad perspective is critical for all of us.

Mirabella Johnson: Yeah, I agree a hundred percent. That is so helpful and insightful. Thank you, Shruti. To quickly close this out today since you have spent so much time with us, and I really appreciate it. I have one more quick question for you. What do you wish you could tell yourself when you were either in my shoes or in a current undergraduate shoes? What do you wish you could tell yourself?

Shruti Mehta: Take advantage of opportunities. Be creative. Be curious. Don't worry so much about what the end is going to be, right? Take advantage of the... I think we oftentimes, we get so focused on what am I going to be? And we obviously ask those questions. What do you want to be in five years? What do you want to be in 10 years? But I think sometimes we kind of feel the weight of that, and that may paralyze us a little bit. And so I think thinking about things a little bit more organically, and again, if something comes at you, don't be afraid to take advantage of that opportunity, even if it wasn't a part of your plan, because something amazing could come of that.

Mirabella Johnson: Yeah, that's also incredibly helpful to consider. And I would echo that as a recent alumna, and I hope for undergrads, for recent alums and other graduate students too, that they're able to think about that because I really do think that applies to our education, but also to life and what you pursue. So with that being said, thank you so much for this great advice and for taking the time to join us today.

Shruti Mehta: Thank you for having me and for sharing your perspective. And I really look forward to also seeing how your career develops.

Mirabella Johnson: Thank you. I definitely will be following what you do. What you do is amazing. Thank you everyone for listening to this special episode of the Weinberg in the World podcast. We hope you have a great day. And as always, Go 'Cats.

Shruti Mehta: Go 'Cats.

In this episode of the Weinberg in the World Podcast, host Preena Shroff, a third-year student at Northwestern University, interviews Peter Waitzman, the CEO of Expedition Money and a 1999 graduate of Weinberg College with a degree in Economics.

Transcript:

Preena: Welcome to Weinberg in the World Podcast, where we bring stories of interdisciplinary thinking in today's complex world. My name is Preena Shroff and I'm your student host of this special Weinberg in the World episode. I'm a third-year student majoring in neuroscience and global health with a minor in data science, and today I have the pleasure of speaking with Peter Waitzman, who graduated from Weinberg College in 1999 with a Bachelor of Arts and Economics. Peter is now the CEO of Expedition Money, a financial wellness program aiming to provide educational content and coaching to help individuals and families achieve financial independence. Peter, thank you so much for being here with us today.

Peter: Well, thank you very much. It is a pleasure to be here.

Preena: Yeah. We are so excited to learn about your work in finance, but would love to start out with maybe how your career path was shaped by your time at Northwestern. So if you can tell us more about your undergraduate experience, what were some impactful classes, extracurriculars or mentorship experiences that you had which impacted your postgraduate career?

Peter: Yeah. So as you mentioned, I came to Northwestern for economics and got immersed in that student body. So a lot of my friends were economics majors. And something similar that you and I share is that I lived in Ayers CCI at the time, which also had a lot of economics people, especially with its commerce theme. So from classwork to just the living experience on campus and even my social life were really surrounding me with people that were like-minded. And economics encompasses a lot of different things, but one of the things that I really liked that is a little bit outside the coursework right now is that it connected me with some of my really good friends who are really good friends today, but we were able to do stuff together, whether it was in classes or starting businesses on campus or doing projects together or researching or just sitting around in the lobby and kicking around ideas or reading the Harvard Business Review or whatever, just having people that share some of the same ideas. And a lot of that was some entrepreneurship. I think it was a little too early to think about that at the time. We didn't really think about starting businesses kind of that freshman, sophomore year, but it was just nice to be in that culture. And then when I started taking classes, people would turn you on to certain things. So one of the classes that I surprisingly liked, it wasn't necessarily in economics, but was the public speaking class. And I remember one of the exercises there was to take a controversial topic and take one side of it and defend it. And I really liked that because what it made you realize is that not everything is going to be a win-win-win situation for everyone. So sometimes you're going to have to take something and you're going to have to do some convincing with it. And it really impressed upon me that you're going to have to be, one, a good communicator when you get out into the real world, make the case for what you're doing, be succinct, get your point across, those types of things, and that's going to be really helpful. And then all of the economics classes that came on top of that, just to help you understand how the world works and incentives and the market dynamics and all of those types of things really was a nice way to put that puzzle together so that when you came out of school, you had a good perspective, a good base for developing what you wanted to work on or go into your career. And obviously, ultimately, I went that entrepreneurial route.

Preena: Absolutely. Yeah. It's pretty cool that the residential college system was where you found a lot of those connections right off the bat starting in college. So go Ayers. My unbiased opinion is Ayers is the best residential college.

Peter: One thing, it's funny you call it Ayers, because Ayers wasn't added on until I was there. So at that time, Mr. Ayers was getting involved and so we put the name on there. So to me, and for people of my vintage, it's still CCI, but I like how some people now know it as Ayers, so very cool.

Preena: Yeah. So let's talk more about beyond Northwestern and what led you on the career path. So I know you talked about different econ classes that kind shaped your experience. What skills were you able to build upon that have been critical in your field today?

Peter: Yeah. So one of the things that Northwestern directly led to was going in the economics world, a lot of people come out of college and go into consulting and it can kind of be a natural transition into the real world for people. And I did that for a couple years. So I did two years in consulting before I went into banking and then investment management, and then financial planning. And so the dots, the path there is actually not super uncommon. I don't know that it's a super common path, but it makes a lot of sense, I think, being naturally born out of the economics seed from Northwestern, and a lot of people who go into consulting maybe kind of branch off into different things. But I kind of still follow that financial path. And what that did for me at the time was just give me a lot of exposure to how things work. So one of the things that I realized from economics is that you get a lot of macro picture, kind of big picture, even if you're doing microeconomics, it's kind of very generalized. But when you get out into the workforce and you start working as a consultant, you kind of understand how business works and the business requirements and those things that go into big projects. But then when I went to the bank as an analyst, you really start seeing real-world stuff. You're looking at data that is moving the needle on the products or services that you provide. And then when I went into financial planning and investment management, you're starting to paint that side of the picture as well. How does this impact individuals and what are the motivations there and the incentives and what are people using, and how does the top level of banking and financial services providers fit into what the consumer needs on the front lines? And so having that broader picture really helped me then continue to move forward, and that's when I started moving away from the products and services side of things into what is generally more financial wellness. So how do we make people healthier, happier, more fulfilled, maybe chase retirement early, balance life and work better, raise a family, kind of have your cake and eat it too. Just generally be able to live and exist in life, which is very difficult. I've even said the game is kind of rigged these days. It's really hard to make the amount of money, and you may not feel it now, but we kind of live in a high inflation environment, and there's so many challenges for people. It's either earning enough money or finding a place that's cheap enough to live or having a job that's secure. The myriad of things that really plague people and things that people struggle with. And so that's why then I started to step back and actually worked... I was working for a large financial services company at the time and they wanted to launch a financial wellness project, something a little bit more encompassing, a little more general. And so I went into the home office and then we started building that and I spent a few years doing that. And then I continued the path of financial wellness and building financial wellness programs for a couple other companies after that. So ended up helping develop financial wellness companies or financial wellness programs for three companies following that, and then went off on my own and built the financial wellness program that I really wanted to build. So that's how I ended up getting there. So kind of a lot of different steps. It's not necessarily A, B, C, D, but it didn't really deviate as far away as I think a lot of career paths can or they can really pivot. And I certainly embrace that too. And for the people that kind of want to go off and do something that's very different from what they got trained in, there's never maybe the perfect opportunity to do that, so you just want to do it.

Preena: Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense that you said you had a couple different jobs working in the industry before building upon your own program. So I guess I kind of wanted to ask, maybe the mentorship aspect of that, do you know if there's anyone who specifically provided a particular mentorship experience for you? Or what advice do you have for students who are looking for support along their career paths?

Peter: Yeah. Mentorship has been one of those things that I think has really evolved over the last couple of years. Not even the last couple of years, but over the last couple of decades. And so when I was a student and then even when I went and left school and actually participated in the mentorship program to Northwestern students at the time, so at that time I was meeting a couple students, and this was fairly early on in my career, there's a lot of value to that. I feel a little bit like mentorship has changed in a way that on one hand, people who can be and should be mentors and have that life experience and maybe are an expert in their industry or subject matter experts are almost gun-shy about becoming mentors because they're worried about the time commitment, they're worried about, hey, the imposter syndrome of it, even though maybe they shouldn't be. And so it's harder these days I think to have formal mentorship relationships than it ever has been in the past, especially when there isn't structure. It's not part of a company, and sometimes in a company they'll have a mentorship program and they will take this person and pair them up with this person. And so one of the things that I've talked about is not necessarily putting that pressure on you, because the benefit of having a mentor is awesome, or the benefit of even just having the opportunity to do a Q&A or to pick the brain of someone who maybe has gone the path that you want to go is super valuable. In just a short conversation, you might get some insights of, "Hey, this works, this doesn't," or, "Based on your personality, I think you should try this," or, "Here's a person I want you to meet." And they can be so valuable, so important. Just that short amount of time can save you so much trial and error or so many headaches on your own. And so without putting that pressure on people, what I say is that you should just feel free to reach out. I know that we have some directories of Northwestern alumni or people that you just meet on LinkedIn or maybe even a connection somewhere else, but, hey, can you make this introduction? Can you sit down with me for 30 minutes? Can I buy you a cup of coffee? Can I just have a Zoom meeting? Can we just talk about some things because I have some questions? And even if you don't establish a formal mentorship relationship, I think just having that connection is really valuable and it opens the door later to having another one. And you actually might have a formal-like mentor relationship that doesn't fall under the category or get the label. And, actually, to be honest, even now, it's easier than ever, I think, because let's say there is someone in your industry that you want to talk to, you slide into their DMs or send them a message, or social media can make some of these connections sometimes. So just being able to pick their brain, like I said, is really valuable. And if you can have a formal mentor, someone who will stick with you over longer periods of time, awesome too. Awesome too. But sometimes it just helps to take away that pressure of that commitment over a long period of time and just start with that conversation and then see where it goes. Because honestly, sometimes you might move away from that industry or that path or whatever it might be, and there's someone else is going to help you, and not having that formal relationship allows you to feel less commitment to try to just hold onto a relationship and not go somewhere else that might get you some better information too, so kind of my thoughts.

Preena: Absolutely.

Peter: And just likewise, people had questions for me. I'm always happy to respond to emails or to set up a meeting or grab a cup of coffee or whatever it might be, because I really want people to get the right information. I want to be an open book. I want people to not make the same mistakes I did and have better efficiency and more fulfillment and all these other things. And obviously that's why I put together my program. But trying to get people to short circuit that, find that wormhole to their delta quadrant as fast as possible, I think that's really meaningful to people when life can be so chaotic anyway.

Preena: Yeah, I think what I'm gathering from what you're saying is communication is really important, and just getting better, getting practice, talking with people, getting to know the background of other people and take from that what advice they can provide for you.

Peter: And you never know what short conversation... I totally agree with you because even for you and me, we just had a short in the line conversation once, and you never know where those relationships are going to go and those connections and the conversation that you have that you might find you have a similar thread in life or whatever that might be, sometimes those things can be really meaningful and last a lifetime. So for sure. Yeah. Don't underestimate any moment.

Preena: Yeah. So speaking of communication route, I know you started out as a content creator. How would you say your experiences as in the content creator back when you were starting off your career, how can that be applied to students navigating social media today? And then what challenges might you anticipate if you had started your career, for example, next year?

Peter: Yeah. Man, this could be a huge all encompassing conversation. I think what I want to boil it down to today is the common denominator of the value of attention, the value of having a platform and the value of having visibility. Because it's not just about, say, marketing a product. Honestly, when a business is trying to use social media, they're usually trying to get their products and services out there, build their reputation, expand their brand, all these other things. But I think one of the things that we undervalue as an individual, and we talked a little bit about communication, that social media can be such a powerful way to expand the reach of our communication. So if we have that communication. And whether it's finding a job or raising your visibility in the industry, or making a connection for other people, or trying to make an impact on your community or your movement or whatever it is, you can have a great message, great skills, but if no one's there to hear you, it's like, does a tree make a sound if it falls in the forest? But if you can figure out how to leverage social media to expand your reach, that can be so powerful. I'll tell you what. Right now, economy's a little slow, people are trying to find jobs. A few years ago there were graduates, wonderful, talented students looking for jobs, and an advantage was to have some of your content already out there, some of the things that you wrote about, opinion pieces, papers that you wrote for school, whatever it might be, just things you were passionate about. Even if it wasn't expansive and Mr. Beast level of type of content, just having some of that could be a differentiator when you're out looking for a job or reaching out to someone to be a mentor or to get a volunteer position. And it doesn't have to just be social media. It can be a book. I've written some books in the past. Those have helped get my message out. It can be doing workshops or presentations or online webinars or whatever you want to do, but don't underestimate the power of the technology and especially these free platforms where I think because they're free, a lot of people are already using them, we say, "Hey, I want to be known for what I do," but sometimes you have to be your best advocate. You're the person advocating for yourself and putting that out there and leveraging the platform. So when I think about content creating, it's not just about trying to get attention for no reason, but what's the purpose? And then for a lot of people, I think that can be your own satisfaction. So like a charity or a cause you're committed to, but it can also be just for your professional advancement or improvement or the next position or speaking engagement or whatever it might be.

Preena: Right. So for you, it was your passion for finance and helping others achieve financial wellness and also sort of helping you build your platform to engage with others.

Peter: Yeah. And so I actually have a number of YouTube channels, and one of them is called Expedition Money Snacks, where it's just one-minute-long videos, very short kind of TikTok format, but here's a concept, here's an idea, maybe you haven't heard of this, or maybe it's a quick bit of news. I try to make things that are very bite-sized. And then I have my Expedition Money. That's more long-form. And those can be 20, 30 minute videos where I deep dive into a topic. So what you want to do is not necessarily put everyone into the same box. People are going to consume in different ways, and which you want not necessarily is put yourself center, but you want to put their consumption desires front and center, and you want to try to serve to them because if you're not getting the attention, if you're not getting that content in front of people, then it doesn't really matter. I can create a lot of content and no one wants to consume it, and so then it's not really having an impact. But if I can craft it in such a way that, hey, it's fun or it's interesting or it's bite-sized, whatever it is, then at least we have a chance at maybe having that deeper conversation. We might have a chance at talking about more developed or nuanced or complex financial topics later. So just trying to keep that door open and keep the information top of mind for people front and center.

Preena: Right. Yeah. For sure. Okay. I think we can kind of turn or pivot a little bit to more so the expedition money side of things. I guess a couple of questions I had regarding your program is why did you decide to make your own program instead of continuing to partner with financial service organizations?

Peter: Yeah, it's a really good question. It's actually a pretty easy one for me to answer, and that's because every time I was at a company, there are usually some guidelines that the company has for some reason. Maybe it's company policy, maybe it's the type of products and services that they're in, and they don't want to necessarily create content or tools that maybe aren't in their wheelhouse. And I've done it for financial services companies, I've done it for HR benefits companies, and the reasons are different. And so in many ways, every time I was building a program, there was just something out of bounds in that program. And I really felt like a true comprehensive effective financial wellness program would embrace everything. So, for example, one of the big topics and one of the topics I've talked about for years is side hustles. So if you're familiar with the term side hustle, it's kind of like moonlighting, maybe doing something part-time, something as a hobby, as a passion project in addition to your day job. But a lot of people in the industry don't like talking about side hustles because, hey, they think, well, as an employer, I don't want to believe that my people have side hustles. I want to believe that they're fully fulfilled here. Or as a financial services company, we don't want people becoming entrepreneurs because that muddies their taxes or whatever it might be. And so side hustles have been kind of a third rail topic in a lot of ways. And for the last couple of years I actually was on the speaking circuit a lot doing a presentation called Go from Getting By to Getting Ahead: Why Side Hustles Must Be Part of the Financial Conversation and trying to get financial services companies to embrace the topic of side hustles. Because for a lot of people, they're 9:00 to 5:00. The math does not necessarily equal everything that they need out of life. It doesn't equal taking care of their living expenses today. It doesn't put their kids through college, it doesn't put enough money away for savings and retirement and fun and all these things. So there's this gap, this delta that we need to address, and sometimes side hustles can do it. And so one of the things that I wanted to do was build that program that didn't have anything that was off of a reservation, per se. We could talk about anything that would help people get ahead financially, find financial independence, whether it's money hacks or rethinking, like the tiny house movement or minimalism or create a budget or whatever it might be. And so that's really why I did the program, so that I could have creative control over it and put in all these topics. And so that's the genesis of what I did. Now, not to say that any of those programs that I helped build or any of the other programs out there aren't good, because they're wonderful. And if you can find what you need in any of those programs, absolutely use them. But that's what I wanted is just something even more comprehensive and more encompassing than the programs I'd seen out there before.

Preena: For sure.

Peter: With that, there are a number of drawbacks. You're owning everything from A to Z. For a lot of people that are involved in, say, The Garage or trying to figure out entrepreneurial problems at school or in business, there's a lot of other things that you have to take into account when starting a business that are above and beyond just building the business. So it makes it more complex, but I think there can be a lot of reward on the back end too.

Preena: Yeah. Yeah. It's really incredible that you were able to build a platform that addresses all those concerns that you kind of had when you were coming out of college and maybe starting to build your finances as well.

Peter: And the reason I did was because when I came out of college, I came out of college with student debt. I know that different schools have different policies around that now, but I came out with student loans. I started working right away because I had to. I didn't come out with a lot of money and I was kind of chasing my tail, especially the first few years out of school. I was working to just have my lifestyle. And it was really at that moment that I was like, "How do I get out of debt?" So I think I had in many ways a typical story. And from that, I found these tools, and that's where one of my first books comes from, Get Rid of Debt Fast, and that was my journey on that. And then getting stability, investing in your career, figuring out how to get promoted, getting to the next level and building that career and side hustles and all these other things. So all of this is really based on my journey of what I found worked. So it's not necessarily just theoretical. I wasn't an ivory tower kind of guy, silver spoon, "Oh, here's what the masses need and I'm blessing you with my knowledge." This is really kind of lessons that I took that helped me get from the bottom rung to the middle rung.

Preena: Yeah. So what are some key financial tips that you give to students like us today?

Peter: Oh, it really probably depends on where students are, but one of the things that I would say is that it's, I think, really important... In some ways, you're not going to be able to avoid debt. Some students are going to come out with some credit card debt or student loans or a car loan. Some students are going to come out of school and they're not going to have any money. So if you want to get an apartment and put furniture in it and all these other things, you're going to have some debt. What I would say is that tackle the debt relentlessly because it's kind of like wading in the ocean. If you've ever been to the ocean and there's kind of even calm waves, there's always this wave action. And if you've ever been in the water and been okay and then gotten splashed with the water and breathed in at the wrong moment, all of a sudden you're kind of choking on water a little bit, and it's really hard to recover from that, even though it's not like a life-threatening thing. But all you want to do is take a pause, you want to kind of have a timeout. And the problem is if you get behind on that debt, the bills keep coming, the wave action keeps coming, and it's really hard to reset and refocus, and it can easily get away from you. So one of the things that I really work with people right now on is, all right, what do we have, and then what creative strategies can we use to get you out of these a lot faster? And in many ways, many normal debt programs say, "All right, it's going to take five, six years to get rid of this." Well, with some of these new tools, you can get out of that debt in three months or four months or 60 days or a few weeks. And so what can we do to do those things? Because those can make a really meaningful difference and get people into some breathing space so that you can focus on your career, so that you can focus on doing a good job, expanding your skills, getting out there, finding a mentor, and start getting ahead.

Preena: Okay. Yeah. So would you say it's about putting money in the right places? So when you have some sort of income, just knowing where to allocate that accordingly? Or is it more of like a spending saving balance?

Peter: Yeah, I'd say it's all of the above because you're absolutely right. What it comes down to is, I think for a lot of us in the typical model is I get paid, I take some of this money, I cover my living expenses, I put some of this money in savings, I allocate some of this to debt, and that can be fine. That strategy in its simplicity can work. But there are also ways to say, "Hey, mathematically, what is the best thing for me to do? Is it to allocate this money here or is it better to put a bigger slice of that over here so that I can get rid of my debt faster or slower?" I mean, it depends on interest rates and all these other things, but the idea is what is the most optimal thing I can do with every dollar that I'm bringing in? Like you said, where can I put that? As opposed to just doing things out of habit that are general rules that we've learned. And so those can make a big difference. In some cases, people have average life and kind of the typical rules work just fine, but for a lot of people, there's something unique, there's a certain way we're earning money. Maybe we have a fluctuating income or you're in sales or whatever it might be, and so how do we take what is unique to your life and then use that as an advantage to get you closer to where you want to be? And so usually you have to take a look at that, and that can be through financial coaching, you can find a professional to do that, but a little bit of help there can make a big, big difference. So a big, big difference in either paying off your house or paying off your car or putting money away. A lot of people want to travel. One of the things I've been talking a lot about is how to take a gap year. How do you take a year off from work? Maybe you work a couple years and maybe you want to take a year off, do a little travel, see the sights, have a social life, kind of get away from it all, reset, write your book, whatever it might be, Instagram 365 days of beautiful living. And so how can we practically do those things? And it can be done. But it has to have some intention. It has to have a little bit of a plan to make that happen. You can't just want it to happen and then expect, oh, look, fortunately everything I did the last year is going to make this happen, because that rarely ever works.

Preena: Right. Yeah. For sure. Well, it was really great talking with you and learning about your career path and all the advice you have for students who are going through it right now. So thank you so much for joining us today.

Peter: Thank you, Preena. It has been a pleasure doing this. And to all of the current students out there like you, keep pushing forward. I am super excited to see what you guys are going to do for the Northwestern community and the world in general. So keep on keeping on.

Preena: Yeah. Thank you. Have a great day, everyone. Thank you for tuning into this episode of Weinberg in the World.

In this special student-hosted episode of the “Weinberg in the World” podcast, student host Ashley Guo interviews JJ, a 1997 Northwestern graduate in psychology who now works at Microsoft. JJ shares his journey from initially pursuing a pre-med path to discovering his passion for psychology through an Intro to Psych class with Professor David Uttal. He discusses his struggles with organic chemistry and how psychology felt more natural to him. JJ also talks about his diverse coursework, including Russian and Eastern literature, history, and art classes, which enriched his undergraduate experience and allowed him to explore various interests.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jjguajardo/

Transcript:

Ashley: Today, I have the pleasure of speaking with JJ who graduated from Northwestern in 1997 with a major in psychology. He is currently at Microsoft. Thank you so much for being here with us today.

JJ: Well, I'm happy to be here. Thanks.

Ashley: We're excited to hear that about your work at Microsoft. Before we do that, we'd love to hear more about your time at Northwestern and what drew you to study psychology initially.

JJ: Yeah, good question. I kind of have a funny journey through Northwestern, although probably not super atypical given what I've heard. When I got to Northwestern as a bright-eyed freshman, I was pre-med. I was going to be a medical doctor. That was my path, so I was very excited about going that way. I was trying to figure out what major that I would want to take on it because I didn't think I wanted to do a straight biology major, physics, or something like that, so I was just playing around a little bit. One of my friends, upperclassmen, suggested... He was pre-med, and he was taking psychology classes. He's like, "It's actually a pretty cool major for pre-meds." That's interesting. So I took an Intro to Psych class with David Uttal, and I loved it. I was fascinated by the subject matter. It was one of those moments in time when you're like, "I'm actually kind of okay at this." I was definitely struggling in the pre-med classes, especially when I got to organic chemistry, which absolutely crushed me. I just couldn't quite grasp that kind of subject matter. Whereas, the psychology classes I was taking, between Intro, I took a developmental psychology class with David Uttal as well, and then other ones, it just sort of clicked. It just worked well, and it felt like I didn't have to try super hard. It sounds weird, but I didn't have to try super hard to do well. That's not because it's easy. It's just because it was kind of coming easy to me, which is weird. So I thought that was a good sign. As I continued to struggle in organic chemistry and continued to really fall in love with the subject matter in the psychology courses I was taking, it just felt like a natural thing to stop doing the pre-med track and pursue psychology from there. Then, yeah, I just jumped in head first and took a bunch of different courses. Obviously majored in it. I worked in a lab with Dr. Uttal for a couple years doing hands-on research with the kiddos in the lab in developmental psychology. Yes, that's how I got into it, and was very, very happy to do so.

Ashley: Wow, that's amazing to hear. I also took Intro to Psych and really loved the class because I'm a cognitive science major, so that resonates a lot.

JJ: That's awesome. Yeah, it's a lot of fun. It just felt natural, and it just worked.

Ashley: Is there any other classes that you took or extracurriculars that you felt like gave you even more chance to explore psychology?

JJ: Oh, interesting. It was funny. I actually took a bunch of, this is kind of weird, Russian, Eastern lit classes-

Ashley: Cool.

JJ: ... and history, sort of random because one of my friends was taking one, and I'm like, "Yeah, that sounds like fun." I had a couple different professors, I can't remember the one's name, but they were just absolutely fascinating. It's one of those kind of situations where, while the subject matter is interesting in and of itself, when somebody is passionate about teaching it and they have so much more to add, it just makes you more excited and interested. So I took way more classes in that subject than I thought I would've normally, which is kind of cool. Then I was also able to take a few art classes, which was really cool. I took some drawing classes later on in my time at Northwestern. That was really fun, and it let me explore the more creative side. I just loved taking a wide variety of things at Northwestern. I think the way that our curriculum was set up and the opportunities that it afforded were awesome, just to be able to explore various topics that I might not have done otherwise.

Ashley: Oh, I see. I noticed that you also continued to pursue PhD. Can you share with us what led you to that decision?

JJ: Yeah, yeah. Like I said before, I was doing research in the lab, so I was doing hands-on work, and I really found it fascinating. Then one summer, the summer between my junior and senior year, I got some grant to continue doing research over the summer, which was great, as part of this program and had a really great time doing that. I could run my own research and stuff.

Ashley: Wow.

JJ: Really, again, it just felt like a natural fit. I was already okay at it, and I liked it. So going into my senior year, I was not sure what I was going to do, to be honest with you. I figured I'd go get a job somewhere and not knowing what I was going to. But talking to Dr. Uttal, he was very encouraging of looking at grad schools. At the time, I was pretty ignorant about them. I didn't know what that would entail. I didn't know how much it would cost and if it was feasible for me and everything. But he reassured me that there were certainly grants and fellowships available and that maybe I was a pretty good candidate for some schools. So I went ahead and applied to various programs that were doing some really interesting developmental work, developmental psychology work, a few around the Midwest. Then eventually the University of Chicago, I got into there and just fell in love with the school and the program. It looked awesome. They gave me a full fellowship to go there with a stipend, so it was a no-brainer. So I just jumped straight in from undergrad to grad school. I studied there for five years and got my PhD in developmental psych, studying small children and infants. My eventual thesis was on nine-month old babies, so a very different subject matter than I'm dealing with now. But it was a great time. I'm really happy to have pursued that and finish the degree.

Ashley: Wow. I see. How did you found your first job after PhD?

JJ: That was kind lucky. It was probably my late third, early fourth year of grad school when I realized that I didn't want to pursue academia as a career. I really liked what I was doing, but I didn't think I would love it enough to do it for my life. In complete transparency, the University of Chicago is a great program, and there were some really amazing people coming out of the program. Folks who were older than me, were a couple years ahead of me, were on the job market with amazing CVs and really a great list of publications and just fantastic candidates, and they were having a hard time getting jobs. They were getting jobs, academic jobs, in places that I just couldn't ever see myself going to or being happy living in some of these places. I want to have a little more agency about where I ended up. I figured that academia was not going to let me have that agency. It was going to dictate where I go, so I decided it wasn't going to be the route I pursued. So I started thinking about non-academic jobs, but I again didn't have a whole lot of... not support, it's not fair, but just a lot of people around me didn't really know that world because they were all academics. At the time, the University of Chicago didn't have a very good system for helping people like me looking at non-academic stuff, although they've done a great job now, and that's a whole other subject. I was looking at jobs. I had something lined up through a friend in Chicago doing some market research. But then happened to look at a job on this old website called Monster.com. It's where you'd find jobs back in the day. I saw something about, "Do you like video games, and do you like working with kids?" I was like, "Yes, and yes. That's awesome." Love video games because I was playing a lot of PlayStation at the time. So I applied. It was with the group who I currently work with now, Xbox Research. I think back in the day we were called Games User Research. This was back in 2002, so a long time ago. I was very excited to get an interview, phone interviews, and I ended up getting the job. It was just a vendor role, which means that I was not working for Microsoft. I was a contractor contracting to Microsoft, but I was happy to do that. I figured I'd come out to Seattle for a year and try it out, and then maybe ended up back in Chicago where my family was. But on a personal note, I came to Seattle, and I met my future now-wife six months after being here, and I was never going back. So I've stayed 22 years now. So that's how I got that role back in the day.

Ashley: Wow, wow. So you didn't really decide to, I guess, officially move to Seattle when you first left?

JJ: Yeah, it was just on a whim. "Yeah, I'm going to go out there." I took a flight with a backpack and my golf clubs. Then my parents drove out in a van with a bunch of my stuff. Again, I figured it'd be about a year or so and had to move it back, but never went back.

Ashley: Never went back, never went back. Oh, I see. I'm curious, your previous, I guess, time either in Northwestern or UChicago, how does what you learned in school or maybe outside of school apply or not apply to your current job?

JJ: It's an interesting question. It's kind of funny. In psychology, I think about that major and why it worked well for me and everything and what I loved about it. I think at its core, it's like, as psychologists, we observe human behavior and try to make some sense of it. That's just kind of what we do. That translates perfectly to the work I do. So in my job as a games user researcher, we watch people and we talk to people as they play our games, as they use the systems, and try to make sense of it. That's our role. That's at the most basic level of stuff. But when I think about when we're in the lab, like a usability lab, for example, where we're literally watching somebody play through a game or through part of a system, and we're watching to see where they succeed or where they struggle, and we're talking to them and we're trying to get to the root cause of what's actually happening, why they're actually struggling, what is it that they're not seeing properly, or, to be more precise, what have we failed to convey as designers, we have to use those techniques that we learned in psychology to drill down to the root cause of an issue, to really question in the right way, in a non-leading way, don't be biased and lead people in the wrong direction. So we use all those kinds of tools that we learned in psych. Then on the other end, when we're doing the analysis, same kind of thing, like all the data that we look at, the way we're going to interpret it, the tools we use to analyze it, that's all from the psychological training, the methods, and experimental backgrounds that we have. So I got all that from school, which is great. That training that I got at Northwestern, and then certainly in my later program, created the foundation and the basis for me to be able to do my job successfully. So I use it quite a bit.

Ashley: Wow.

JJ: Now, I don't use the developmental psychology stuff a whole lot given that I don't work with babies, but I did for a while. There were some games and products that we were developing for kids that I actually was brought in to do work on because of my background, so I was able to use some of the developmental psychology knowledge and domain expertise there as well.

Ashley: Wow, that's amazing. Because I know not everyone can get to use what they learned in school in their actual job-

JJ: Yeah, [inaudible 00:13:52].

Ashley: ... so that's amazing to hear. Were there any challenges that you faced when you first came out of UChicago going into your job?

JJ: I think probably the biggest challenge or biggest surprise, I'd say, was the speed at which you work in business. In grad school over the course of five years, I ran two big research projects, one for my master's and for my PhD, and each of those had sub-components, of course. Then I had ran a couple of side projects with my PI at the time as well. I probably had four or five things that I did over the course of my time there. So you just do the math, and it's, on average, about a year for a project. Then you go to industry. You're given a problem to try to solve or try to get some insight on it, and you got about a week to do it. It's a very different pace. So I think that was surprising but exciting as well. I think there was a moment when you realize that this is non-academic research. You're not going to try to publish in Nature or some other journal. This is to try to answer a business decision and give a team information to be able to make some changes to the product to improve it on a pretty quick timeframe, and that's all you need to do. I think once you realize that, the stakes are a little bit different. You can adjust accordingly and speed up your work and everything. So that was a big surprise, though, was the timelines and the speed at which we operate.

Ashley: I see. I guess I know that the speed is definitely going to be different after school compared to during school, but a week compared to a year is very-

JJ: It's different. But at the same time, the scope is much different, like I said, and the stakes are different. I do think that the training that I got at Northwestern and UChicago certainly gave me the ability to look at data and make sense of it relatively quickly and communicate that stuff, those insights back to the team with speed and accuracy as well. So I was well-trained to be able to do that.

Ashley: I see. Gathering and then analyzing and then communicating that, those are really important parts. Were there any project that you've worked on that you really enjoyed?

JJ: At Microsoft?

Ashley: Mm-hmm.

JJ: Yeah, I've got a bunch that I just loved doing. One of the best parts about my role, my job is that we do have freedom to... We have to answer questions and work with our partners and make sure we're fulfilling that need, but there's also a certain level of freedom within that. I kind of do it the way you need to do it or you want to do it, which is pretty cool. So a few projects I worked on, one was on the Forza Motorsport series, which is the racing games. That's part of Microsoft, part of Xbox Game Studios. They had been building this series of games for a decade or so. I think we were going into the sixth version of the game. I just took over working on the project, the product. I was talking to the creative director of the studio, and I was asking, what are his big questions? What does he want to know? One of the things he want to know was, who plays our game and why? Well, that's a big question, and I thought a pretty easy answer. It's like, "Well, people who play racing games play your game, or they like cars." But that wasn't going to satisfy him. So I went and did a bunch of research using data analytics, so the big, big numbers, as well as survey and interview, so kind of a combination of methods, to put together a set of gaming profiles, so the kinds of people that play the game, the motivations they have for playing the game. Someone might want to play the games just because they really enjoy playing by themselves and running through an entire single-player campaign in a game and play 60 hours of the game, win all these different championships. That might be a motivation to play. Someone else might be motivated just by playing against other people. They want to play with their friends online, and that's the motivation. Someone else might be motivated just because they've got 15 minutes to blow off some steam after work and before they need to do something else. They just jump into a race, and they want to just drive really fast for a little bit of time and drive some cool car. So we ended up finding these different groups with different motivations. That ended up informing the next versions of the game and how we actually built the game. So it was pretty cool. The design team, we built a lot of assets and resources around these kinds of profiles, these kinds of people, and then we build the game to meet those needs. So we're like, "We're going to build for this kind of person, this campaign kind of player. We're going to build for this multiplayer person, these various things." So you could really see our fingerprints all over the next versions of the game, which was really cool, really rewarding. You don't get to see that kind of impact at that level too often in your career. So that was a really fun project to take on, and I just really enjoyed the work. It was really fun diving deeply into millions and millions of data points and looking at these ginormous spreadsheets and making some kind of sense out of it.

Ashley: I see. Just from hearing, I feel like there could be a lot of transferable skills a student could learn in school and also potentially use that in their future careers.

JJ: Absolutely. Yeah, definitely.

Ashley: Are there any advice or suggestions you would give to students who are interested in, let's say, pursuing a career in user research or a related field?

JJ: Yeah. I think one thing I would offer to students is to try to get involved early, if you can. There are a lot of professional conferences that have discounts, for example, for students to join. So I would say get involved in the community as soon as you can or as soon as you want to, just because that's the whole game. I hate saying this, but so much of it's about networking. While I find that, I've always found that kind of cringey and annoying, it's incredibly necessary, and it's just something I've come to terms with. So I'd say, make sure that you start building your network early on. Because the more you're out there, the more your name is known, the more contacts that you have, the more likely you are to be able to land something or at least get an interview and talk to somebody about it. I think that's a big part. Again, these professional conferences, they're very, very welcoming of academics and students. Because we all come from that background, so we're all very much like, yes, we should absolutely bring the next generation of people in. There's a lot of freedom to interact at those conferences and to meet people. Me and my colleagues are all super happy to talk with students and give advice and try to make that connection, if we can. So I would say that's one big piece that I'd offer, for sure.

Ashley: So networking and also just exposing ourselves to different scenarios or different events.

JJ: I think so, yeah.

Ashley: Okay. Thank you so much for sharing. It's really helpful to learn about your career trajectory and the advice that you share with students. This will really help students who are trying to figure out their careers in college. Really appreciate you being here today.

JJ: Yeah, happy to do it, for sure.

In this special student-hosted episode of the “Weinberg in the World” podcast, student host Preena Shroff, a third-year neuroscience and global health major, interviews Carla Karijolich, a 2008 Weinberg College graduate in political science and history. Carla, now a senior manager in customer care training at a medical device and digital health company, shares her undergraduate experiences, including studying abroad in Paris, participating in Peer Health Exchange, and being a DJ at WNUR. She emphasizes the importance of trying new things and how her diverse experiences have shaped her career path and skills, particularly in public speaking and empathy.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/carlakarijolich/

Transcript:

Preena Shroff: Welcome to Weinberg in the World podcast where we bring stories of interdisciplinary thinking in today's complex world. My name is Preena Shroff, and I'm your student host of this special episode of Weinberg in the World. I'm a third year student majoring in neuroscience and global health, and today I have the pleasure of speaking with Carla Karijolich who graduated from Weinberg College in 2008 with a major in political science and a minor in history. Carla is working as a senior manager in customer care training at a medical device and digital health company. Carla, thank you so much for being here with us today.

Carla Karijolich: Thank you for having me.

Preena Shroff: We are so excited to learn about your managerial role in learning and development, but of course would love to start out with your time at Northwestern and how that shaped your path. So maybe you could tell us a little bit more about your undergraduate experience. What were some impactful classes, extracurriculars or conversations that you had which impacted your postgraduate career?

Carla Karijolich: Thanks for asking that. Like you said, I majored in political science and minored in history, so I'm just very passionate about understanding what's going on in the world and why and what has happened prior to that to create the reality that we live in today. That was something that I just really enjoyed studying and it opened up my world so much. Some of the memorable things that I did in college was studying abroad in Paris, France. That was a really eye-opening and meaningful experience, very humbling to go to another country and learn a new language. That did a lot for me culturally and as a person. I also was involved with Peer Health Exchange, so that's a program where we would go to some local high schools and teach high school freshmen about health. My topic was rape and sexual assault. As you can imagine, getting up early on Fridays to get in front of high school freshmen and talk about a serious topic did a lot for me as a public speaker. I don't think I've ever had such a tough audience and such a difficult topic. I also was a DJ at WNUR and I was on the Rock show specifically, and that was just a tremendous amount of fun discovering new music, artists. Of course, when you're constantly thinking about music and what you want to play on your show, you're going to concerts. So just really great time, really expanded my world. All of those interests, I think still show up in my current life and career.

Preena Shroff: Yeah, wow, that's actually so awesome. It's really cool that you're able to try your hand at a lot of different things that are so different from each other and probably building relationships within all those different communities as well. That's awesome.

Carla Karijolich: Yeah, I definitely like to try new things. That is something that I encourage students, you can try something, you may not like it, and that's okay. That's giving you information about maybe the things that you want to move away from. Then sometimes you'll try something and you really like it and it can put you on a path. All of these skills absolutely add up and pay off.

Preena Shroff: Yeah, for sure. Speaking of path, beyond Northwestern what do you think led you on your career path or what skills were you able to build up specifically that had been critical in your field today?

Carla Karijolich: It's really interesting to me how when I look at my career path really starting from freshman year, it's paid off. The summer after my freshman year, I volunteered at a legal clinic for survivors of domestic violence, and I transcribed and translated survivor testimonies from Spanish to English to be used as legal evidence. That was very, very eye-opening, gave me a lot of empathy, a lot of appreciation for what attorneys do and what people go through when they suffer domestic violence. From there, with that experience, I actually was able to then get a work study job as a research assistant at a local hospital. Because I had that transcription experience and experience with sensitive topics, I worked with some researchers who were studying postpartum depression. Another very interesting rich topic, a tremendous amount of empathy that you get. Then eventually when I became a mother, I was able to really understand those experiences even more. That kind of got me on this research mindset. My first job out of college was in public policy research, so I was able to learn a lot. I was working in public finance research at the time of the 2008 recession, so that was a really interesting time to be in that field. I learned a lot about local government, state government, how it works. Totally tapped into my interest with political science and history. The economy was still in rough shape when that program was up, so I was really thinking about, do I want to continue in public policy? Should I go to grad school? Should I continue to work? I knew I wanted to continue my education, I just didn't know exactly when and how. I ended up in my first corporate job as an HR research analyst, and specifically I was working in corporate recruiting. All of those dots eventually connected and put me into the corporate world where I am today.

Preena Shroff: I'm sure all those skills you gained through communicating with different types of people coming from all kinds of situations really helped with that too.

Carla Karijolich: Yes. Just when you think about the different populations that I've worked with, yeah, I guess I've never shied away from tough topics. Now in the work that I do, I'm a training manager, so I have to be able to interact with people really from all over the world because in my current company, I work with people in different countries, from different cultures. We talk about sensitive topics and also very tactical topics. I absolutely love getting to know new people and new cultures. I'm sure that started even before Northwestern, but all my experiences at Northwestern really teed me up to be successful at that.

Preena Shroff: Yeah, for sure. I know you mentioned a little bit about what you're doing now, which is primarily in learning and development. When did this interest in learning and development come up and how has it impacted your path?

Carla Karijolich: I got into learning and development over 10 years ago. I was working in sales and customer service, and I wanted to move up into a managerial role. At the time in my mind, that was the next step. You go from an individual contributor to a manager. I thought about how do I do that? My supervisor, who was a really awesome mentor, suggested that I take on opportunities to train other employees because that's a really good way to demonstrate your leadership skills. As I was doing that, I really got to develop my public speaking, my writing skills, solving operational problems, implementing solutions, and change management. It really became my path. Instead of using training as a stepping stone into another career, it became my career. I applied to a master's program at Northwestern in Learning and Organizational Change, and I completed that, and so I have two degrees from Northwestern. I think that that says a lot about the university, that so many people go back.

Preena Shroff: They're Wildcats.

Carla Karijolich: Exactly. Double. Double Wildcat. I teach here too now, so we can talk about that later.

Preena Shroff: Oh, cool.

Carla Karijolich: But yes, I've been on that path ever since.

Preena Shroff: Wow. Okay. Yeah. So I guess coming back to Northwestern a little bit, just looking in the past and looking towards the future, how did you seek mentorship at Northwestern? What advice do you have for students who are looking for support along their career paths today?

Carla Karijolich: That's such a good question. I think that especially for students where they're the first in their family to go to a four-year college or university, it is really important to get mentorship because your family has a lot of love and support for you, but you're going to encounter things that maybe they haven't had to navigate in the same way. It is important to have those mentors. I did have a formal mentor through the Northwestern Public Interest Program. That was a part of the first job that I had out of college, and I was assigned a really awesome mentor who made such a big impact on my life. He teaches in the graduate school at CESB, and I'd say, "Oh yeah, tell me about your program," and we would talk about things that I was doing at work and the things that he teaches about, and he gave me so much insight into some of the things that I was working on. Then however many years later, I ended up applying to that program, and I took his class. I did get an A in his class, but it wasn't because of any inside advantage that I had. The advice and the takeaway from that is that if there's a program that offers formal mentorship, whether it's through school or something in the community, apply and take it. It's just an opportunity to meet someone that you otherwise are not going to meet who wants to help you. This person has signed up to help a student and to help them grow. Take those chances. Also, mentorship isn't really always a formal thing. You don't have to go somewhere and sign up for a mentor. Anyone can be a mentor. In the different jobs and internships that I had, I would really show interest and curiosity in the work my colleagues were doing. For example, when I was in the postpartum depression research program, I didn't know a single thing about postpartum depression, being a mother. I was taking classes on research at Northwestern and social science research, but that's very different from researching in a clinical setting. I would ask my colleagues about what they were doing and how they ended up with the degrees that they had and how they ended up doing this work. It's just enriching. You learn a lot. I also would go to office hours and just keep up with those professors who I really admired and whose work really resonated with me. I think that the professors, they appreciate that. People like to talk about their work, and when someone shows an interest in what you're doing, I think it means a lot to them. I would keep up with them, even if you just visit once a year or a couple of times in a year. They remember you and it gives you someone to talk to. Also, even just other students. The juniors and seniors, I would see them dressed up and, "Oh, did you go on an interview today?" "Yeah, I did." "How'd it go?" They're giving you advice without even knowing it. They're telling you about what they did and how it went and the questions they got. Just by them telling you, you're learning so much. I think it's just all about that curiosity. The last example I'll give is that when I was in my work study job in the postpartum depression program, there was a coworker who was a licensed clinical social worker that I enjoyed talking to. In getting to know her, she told me about how she had had a very successful career in business, and then after that pivoted into this. She was already on a different path doing something else very successfully, and then decided to do something completely different. That was so eye-opening for me. You're not locked into anything. You're always evolving, you're always growing. Your career is going to be decades long, so you have to be open and recognize that you are going to go through some evolutions and some transformation.

Preena Shroff: Yeah, for sure. I think what you said about finding mentorship anywhere, there are so many programs at Northwestern, first of all, that give students opportunities to connect with past Wildcats or alumni. At the same time, just I think the students at Northwestern are very open to sharing their experiences and wanting to encourage other people to follow that path as well.

Carla Karijolich: Yeah, I mean, that's how I met you. I think what's so funny, I don't know if I told you this, but I applied for some formal mentorship program to be a mentor for students, and they had so much interest in that first year that they didn't have a spot for me. That was a bummer. Then at some point a few weeks later, I got an email saying, "Do you want to attend this event at the Waldron Center?" I said, "Yes, absolutely," and that's how I met you, and that's how we ended up here. So sign up for things. You never know what will come out of it.

Preena Shroff: For sure. Yeah. I mean, exactly. It's like the students at Northwestern, even regardless of where they go, where they end up, they're always looking to come back and share their experiences.

Carla Karijolich: Isn't that the truth?

Preena Shroff: Yeah. It's so amazing. Actually, you had mentioned finding your professors and connecting with them, and that reminded me that you teach at Northwestern School of Professional Studies. What do you teach and how'd you get into it?

Carla Karijolich: Oh, thanks for asking. I teach an undergraduate class in organizational behavior, and it's about training and development, so right in my wheelhouse of what I do. At some point after I finished my master's degree, I thought that was so much fun. I don't necessarily want to do homework, but I would love to teach and give homework.

Preena Shroff: Assign homework.

Carla Karijolich: Right? There's just so much that I would do, and I would think, wow, I wish I could share this with people who are up-and-coming or who are interested in this field, because that's what the professors did in my graduate program. They did this all day, every day, and they would tell us about what they had done and what worked and what didn't work and so forth. I really just wanted to pay it forward. I told my mentor, the one I told you about through Northwestern Public Interest Program, I said, "Oh, you teach, I want to teach too. How do I do that?" He said, "Oh, you got to tell people. You have to make sure people know you're interested so that if it comes up, they have you in mind." One day, I don't know how much time had lapsed, could have been a year or more, but I remember seeing a post in a LinkedIn group for alumni of my graduate program, and they were looking for someone who could teach a class on training and development, who had a master's degree and had hands-on experience in that field. I could not apply fast enough. I was so excited, and it has been everything I wanted and more. I get to share my experiences and build up this just next generation of talent in the field. I have worked with students who are interested in the topic and interested in making a career change of some kind. I've seen students transition into new jobs after taking my class and taking classes at SPS, so not all attributed to me. I'm just so proud of them, to see somebody developing their skills and really making that effort and then succeeding. It's a huge point of pride for me. I'm so honored when people ask me to write them a letter of rec or be a reference, and then I see them in this new role and excelling. For me, ultimately, I would love to work with my former students because I want to work with other talented, hardworking, intelligent people. I feel like I'm helping put that out in the world, and someday they're going to recommend me or be my friends for something. Then my work is truly done.

Preena Shroff: Yeah, Carla, your class sounds awesome. How can I sign up?

Carla Karijolich: It is. Actually, you can take it as a student-at-large, or if you are an SPS student. It's an elective within organizational behavior, but I'm already thinking that I would love to teach other topics too. I don't know, maybe someone who's looking for a co-teacher... If anyone can make a PowerPoint deck, it's me.

Preena Shroff: That's great. You mentioned that you were able to get connected with this role because of LinkedIn. I guess I was kind wondering how has social media shaped your path in other ways, just who you've been able to keep in touch with, or if you've used it to get closer with any other career choice or something like that?

Carla Karijolich: Oh my goodness, this is such a good question. Social media, and particularly LinkedIn, have probably changed my life. I was looking for a new position, and I saw a job on LinkedIn and I applied. I was in the process, and I went through so many interviews. I thought I was interviewing to be an executive or something. It was just the scrutiny and the number of interviews. Then I got to the very end, I interviewed with the final boss, as it were, and that person looked at my LinkedIn profile probably while we were talking, and then shot a message over to a mutual connection. It was someone I had done a group project with grad school, and that was our relationship, was having been grad students on a project. He asked this person, "What do you know about Carla?" Basically asking to vet me, and he vouched for me, and I got the job and has worked out. It's been tremendous. Just one person that I connected with, I don't even remember if he requested me, I probably requested him to be honest, but because of that one connection, that person vouched for me. So you never know, but I would say take care of those connections. You never know who will speak up for you or vouch for you. You don't know the kind of impression that you leave on people too. You work with someone on a project and they see that you're organized and you have your little spreadsheet and that you do the things that you say you're going to do, that means a lot. Take care of those relationships. For anyone who is skeptical of group projects, look, a group project got me a job.

Preena Shroff: I guess it's really cool how, first of all, you can build that connection and then maintain it online, and then someone else can look at that and just build off of that on their perception of your character. I guess every relationship you form really matters when you're applying.

Carla Karijolich: Yes. It's so funny because when you're in class, you're wearing jeans and you're taking notes furiously, but you don't know that in that moment you're working with somebody who eventually could end up influencing you or helping you. That's a wonderful thing. I think as Northwestern alumni, the fact that we can count on each other like that is really special.

Preena Shroff: For sure. Kind of taking a pivot here with another question I had for you in terms of obstacles or challenges that you've overcome throughout your career. What obstacles have you had and did your time at Northwestern impact your approach to solving the problem in any way?

Carla Karijolich: Everyone has challenges in their career, and the biggest one for me that I can think of is making that transition to becoming a working mom. I had my first child, and when I had to go back to work, it was an uphill climb. There's so much you have to learn as a new mother. You have to learn how to take care of your baby, take care of yourself. If you are nursing that child, you will have to learn about how to do that, pumping. Hopefully, maybe there's a working mother listening to this now, kind of nodding her head. It is so, so challenging to get into a new routine. You have a new human being who depends on you in your life, and after making that transition, you have to go back to work. That was so hard. It is so different to walk into the office with those fresh new responsibilities in your personal life and then go back to work. You're not the same. On top of that, I kind of got shuffled around after having been gone for a few months. That can happen. When you go on leave, you come back into a new role, maybe that new role isn't a good fit for you. That was very challenging for me to have to be shuffled like that. I had to really reflect on that and think about how do I improve this situation? I think that Northwestern was actually a big part of me making that transition, because my experience as an undergrad was all about trying new things, being resilient, and really developing that self-belief. I'm also still close to my friends from undergrad. I still talk to them. Every day we have a group chat. I'm still talking to these people, and they were just so supportive of me. Some of them had been through the same transition, and that just bedrock of support on top of my family and my husband was so, so important. What I was able to really realize is that I had outgrown what I was doing. Even if the situation was difficult, it wasn't necessarily a bad thing because the situation was telling me, "You need to find a new path. You need to have the courage to make that change." So I took that risk of looking for a new job, really looking for something that I would enjoy doing, and that would give me the ability to grow and progress in my career. I was able to find that, and it's worked out really well. This is the job that my former classmate had vouched for me for. I think ultimately I had that foundation of support and confidence to move on into the next chapter, and I'm so glad that I did.

Preena Shroff: Yeah. Wow. It's amazing that there's no challenge, and then there's no one pinpoint where you can be like, "Oh, this class, this moment taught me what I needed to know on how to approach this challenge." It's more of like, it's who you built or how you built upon yourself over your time at Northwestern that led you to survive or keep moving forward through the challenge.

Carla Karijolich: Yes, absolutely. It's all of the experiences that come together to make you who you are. I had mentioned earlier when I was in the Peer Health Exchange program and I had to get up and talk in front of those high school freshmen about rape and sexual assault, that was tough. I was just trying to make sure that they were paying attention to me and not laughing at me. In one of the interviews that I did, I had to do a presentation. I had to create a presentation from scratch and present to this interview panel and basically do a training to show them how do I create content? How do I train? It went really well. I was able to blow them away because always in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, they're not high school freshmen. I got this right. We're not talking about anything scary. To this day, just so many of these different things that I learned or that I did as an undergrad payoff to give me that confidence that I need.

Preena Shroff: Yeah. Wow. Well, thank you so much for sharing your experience and your path, and it was really amazing to hear about your time at Northwestern and how that's helped you find your way today. Thank you for joining us today.

Carla Karijolich: Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

Preena Shroff: Have a great day, everyone. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Weinberg in the World.