Weirdos In the Workplace

If Alex Keenan is known for anything, it's for knowing how to take the "ick out of public speaking"!

From public speaking at conferences to courtrooms to crowded bars, Alex has learned a thing or ten about authentic audience connection and making public speaking a fun and crucial skill for success.

With a deep understanding of how to bridge gaps between people - and a gift for helping her clients find the strength to confront their fears - Alex helps her clients speak confidently, find the right words, and build a stage presence that is powerfully authentic.

As Alex says weirdos, let's take the "ick out of public speaking and start showing up sauthentically"!

Stay in Touch with Alex:

LinkedIn Profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexandrakeenan/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/StageLightCommunications

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/stagelightcomms/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRIXL11O608vVB9FNQZybdQ

For more on Alex and her services:

https://stagelight.ca/

Script:

That means two things. It means that you can, you have a lot of leeway to just be yourself and not really worry about what people are saying. It also means that you have to work a lot harder than you think to get noticed and to get people to retain your ideas. And so I think it's a question of, you know, go out there and be who you are and don't stop being who you are and don't stop saying what you have to say.

Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, a podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose at work. I'm really happy to have Alex Keenan on the show. Welcome, Alex.

Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

So Alex takes the ick out of public speaking. She's spoken everywhere from conferences to rooms to crowded bars and learned a thing or two about authentic audience connection. She works with businesses, professionals, and change makers who recognize that public speaking is a crucial tool for their success. And I would say if you're a person who has a message, you have something important that you want to share with the world and that you want to get it out there, but you're a little too afraid to take that first step, this is the perfect podcast episode for you. I'm really excited to chat with you, Alex.

Thank you.

Awesome. Okay. So let's just give you an opportunity to tell everyone about yourself. You know, what is it that has motivated you to, to do this in the first place? Yeah, I think people are really interesting. Like, how do we connect with each other? Or how do we kind of fail to connect with each other? And what's what's going on in that space in between?

So I came through a career change, I used to practice law, which I'll get into that it was it wasn't the right fit for me. But I did learn a lot about how you know how do you show up how do you think on your feet and put your best case forward be persuasive and I combine kind of that background with you know I do comedy so I used to be an improv teacher I've done stand-up and then so there you learn how to be more authentic, how to really engage with a group. And I kind of, I bring these things together. And mostly I work with professionals and business owners on how to promote themselves professionally. But I really think that we need to let go of this idea that professional communication needs to be boring and soulless and robotic. And we can bring who we are into the way that we communicate, the way that we express ourselves and how we, you know, show ourselves to the world. Yeah.

I'm so glad to hear you say that. I mean, and that there's a perfect segue into like, you know, I'm, I'm definitely a weirdo. I can't not be a weirdo. Like if I'm talking into a group of people, it's going to bubble out no matter what I do to try to keep it under wraps. Do you identify as a weirdo at all? I sure do. I sure do. Has that influenced the work that you do, do you think? So I, you know, there are a lot of there are a lot of rules of public speaking and communication that I just, you know, don't worry about it. Don't start with a quote, you know, like don't picture the audience in their underwear. Don't don't obsessive about whether you are using filler words. Filler words are communication. And I think we really need to be strategic.

And I like to be kind of, you know, data driven and analyzing, you know, how do we communicate with each other and what's the impact that it's having? And so sometimes I work with clients. I don't just do public speaking. I also work with people who are trying to be more effective in their workplace communication. And so, for example, sometimes I get women who come in and say, oh, the, you know, the men that I'm in meetings with say I use too much upspeak.

And so I'll start with, OK, here's what upspeak here's why can I swear on here I yes please do and also I don't know what up speak is for someone you know for someone to yeah you know pretend that you're not a professional because you have a certain vocal habit oh you mean like what's it called yeah yeah like when you know like your voice kind of goes up. Oh, yeah. Is there another word for that too? I can't remember.

Yeah, I think there's, there might be another word for that as well. I can't remember, but yeah. Okay. So it's when you're like, I've noticed that actually it's interesting you say that because on my first, if you listen to a lot of my first podcast episodes, it's one of the things that I gave myself feedback on that I've been trying not to do anymore. Is that like, da, da, da, like kind of like ask you like, almost like you're asking a question. Is that what you're talking about? Yeah, exactly. But it's really interesting because there are people who, especially if women are doing it, well, you know, kind of like judge and say, it makes you sound insecure and it, you know, it takes away your credibility. But if you, you know, if you look at the science and the linguistics behind the use of that technique, just to name one, there's a lot of subtlety. And it depends on who is using it and what their position in that relationship is.

And so just kind of flattening it down to this is annoying and it makes you sound insecure is, you know, it's simplistic. Yeah, it's very simplistic. And it kind of flattens out the communication that takes place within that vocal habit. And so, you know, we start with that conversation, but you should not have to change everything that you are just to be accepted in your workplace. But, you know, if it is holding you back, here are some options and you can choose how you go forward with this. Here's how you can train yourself to make a choice about whether you're going to use that or not. And bring that out in whatever way is going to get you the results that you want and allow you to be authentic when you feel you need to be authentic and to adapt when you feel you need to adapt. Yeah. So, oh my goodness. Yeah.

There are so many things that like looking back, especially on the podcast, because when you're podcasting, you don't get a lot in real life, you don't get a lot of opportunities to actually listen to yourself talk over and over and over again, like recorded. Right. I think podcasting and, you know, is one of the opportunities, obviously. And so every week I would listen to, especially when I was in the first season, when I was editing everything by myself and it was constant critique. It's funny because we're, I don't do that to other people, you know, like I do to myself, but how many people are still, I wonder like, what is the judgment? I don't know that we're there yet. I think there's still a lot the judgment? I don't know that we're there yet. I think there's still a lot of judgment out there for the way that we present ourselves professionally. Yeah, I think there absolutely is. I'm sorry. I turned my phone off. Absolutely.

Yeah, there is a lot of judgment in, you know, in many respects. And that's sometimes why people come to me is because they're getting that judgment and people feel absolutely entitled to say, I don't like the way you speak. And I don't think there's, there's an easy answer to that. I think part of it is education. Part of it is normalization. You know, the way that one generation speaks becomes, you know, the norm when, when they grow up. And so it's, you know, it's constantly changing. But I think there is a lot of power in being able to identify, you know, listen to yourself in a recording, say, okay, this is what's happening. And I didn't realize it. What can I do about this if I want to do something about it? Right? Yeah.

And then you have the autonomy to choose. Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah yeah but I think you were not alone in not liking to listen to it I don't like to listen to myself I'm good now like now that I've done it a hundred times I'm like okay now I like the sound of my own voice and I'm like yeah bring it on yeah good good no it's gotten to the point where I'm like it's too much now I'm like okay Erin you gotta you know relax well and I think it comes from when you're hearing it once in a while what you're hearing clashes with what you actually think you sound like and so it's this weird um you know disparity between your expectations and what you're distorted yeah yeah and if you're used to hearing yourself on recording you're just okay that's what I sound like and you can just move on from that but it takes some time it's true um but you can definitely like my voice has changed you know the I don't even know if it's changed for the better to be honest now that I'm like sometimes I go back to those first episodes and I'm like oh I feel like I feel like my voice was I feel like things were a little more natural back then um and not I don't know maybe I've yeah, putting on too many airs now or something, but whatever, we evolve.

Maybe I'll go, maybe I'll devolve and then that'll be better. But I think I've told you this before about my journey into being able to speak in front of people and that, and you were also, I think, pretty shy growing up. Oh yeah. From what I, yeah. Yeah. We were both big time shy. And so I would love to have a conversation about that because I think a lot of our weirdo followers out there who are listening to this, you know, we're passionate people like weirdos, especially, or the way that I define it, at least, you know, folks who are, have a bit of a chip on their shoulder. Maybe they haven't always felt included.

There's something maybe a little bit different about the way they think or unique about the things that they're interested in. So usually very passionate, right? Like focused and passionate, sometimes hyper-focused on things. Uh, and so having something to say, right. Or something that you want to like an agenda, you've got something, some way you want to change the world usually for the good, I hope. Um, but just feeling blocked on like how to get past that first step, um, for people that are out there who want to take that first step. And they're like, I think I'm motivated to take that first step. What would you suggest, recommend? I think the first thing is, you know, give yourself a break. A lot of people, you know, they fear public speaking. They fear, you know, speaking up and kind of judge themselves for that.

But it's so normal, right? Most of us didn't learn how to do this. for that but it's so normal right most of us didn't learn how to do this we were just kind of thrown into okay you're in class and you need to give this presentation in front of all the other kids and some of them might be bullying you and just go for it and do well and then we get into the work world and it's the same thing get up and talk about your work so you know um we can all we can all silently judge you or at least that's how it feels and you know there will be consequences if you don't do well but we're not going to bother giving you the time to learn it.

And so we, it kind of almost sets people up to fail. So I think, first of all, you know, giving yourself a break and recognizing that the reason it feels so negative might be because we only do it in these situations where we're forced to, and there could be negative consequences. And so one thing that I recommend to people all the time is if you want to get better at this go do something you think is fun you know um like some some people I know um some of my clients some of my friends love Toastmasters and that's terrific for them I quit Toastmasters four times it wasn't fun for me and that's fine it's just a personal thing my thing was improv yeah and it was it was great to just be able to get on stage in front of people and let loose and not worry about what was going to happen because once that scene is done that scene is done and nobody thinks about it again and um and so that was kind of my pathway to be able to just show up and and not worry about how I was being judged for some people it might be you know you want to you want to run your book club or you want to get certified to teach the fitness class that you like taking, right?

Whatever is that thing that's going to get you in front of people and you're excited enough to do it, but that overrides the fear that you have of it. That's your path to overcoming your fear and to starting to enjoy it. Right. Yeah. So you can take like really baby steps, like getting in front. I think my first thing was like corporate training, right? Like going in and internal training first, like training my team, like first a couple of people, then more people. And then, you know, external to the corporation. So like, you know, doing work with clients and getting in front of people and doing stuff like that. And then it was workshops, like public workshops. And then, you know, it got bigger and bigger. But like starting even back before that, before that was sales, honestly, like, when I was like 1213, I couldn't even make a phone call.

Like I was terrified. Like, did you ever go through that? Like? call like I was terrified like did you ever go through that like um yes yeah for sure I couldn't I couldn't even pick up the phone to I'd have to write down a whole script it was like calling my friend to go on a you know go out to the movie like even even something like that yeah it was extreme like I'd literally have to write out a whole script um and then it was literally practice and practice and practice and practice. And then in my 30s, I started in business development, like kind of like thrown into it. And I had a list of people I had to call. And it was like, yeah, it was like cold calling. But the nice thing about cold calling is like, there's no pressure, really, you know, it feels like pressure, but there's no, like, there's nothing, nothing's going to happen if they say no and they won't talk to you and nothing's going to happen if you like bungle up that phone call.

Cause they will never remember you, you know? Yeah. Yeah. They don't know you. They're total strangers. Right. Yeah. That's such a great point. Yeah. So people get a lot of anxiety around cold calls, but I think it's like one of the lowest risk things that you can start on if you just need to practice talking to people. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, there's going to be a certain failure rate. And so it's not personal. No. I mean, maybe it is, but like you're learning, right? Yeah. Like start on like low risk potential client or leads or whatever. Like don't start on your like you know the highest the most important people to talk to exactly yeah yeah yeah anyways yeah so I never like I never really thought about it in those terms but you're absolutely right yeah sales was really helpful and now I feel like I can talk to anyone unless it's certain situations that get my like guard up or whatever and then I'm like back to square one.

So how did you end up in a situation where you, you are terrified to talk on the phone and you're suddenly you're doing cold calls. Like, how did you make, I mean, that was like, there was like probably 12 years in between those two, you know? So it was a long time. Cause I didn't really start, I didn't start in business development until I was like in my early thirties. Um, but even at the beginning of that, like I would have a whole script written out and I would know what I was going to say. And then after like the first thousand cold calls, you know, I could throw the script out and, um, you know, it was just, it was just, my boss was like, I actually wasn't even my boss. It was, I felt like I needed to be useful in a different way. Um, and so I pushed myself to do that because I was like, I want to be like beyond a doubt useful. Right.

And so to, to me, sales is like, you know, every business needs sales. Like you're pretty much always going to have a job if you're a great salesperson. Right. Yeah. You know, so to me becoming like, you know, absolutely without a doubt useful meant like contributing revenue generation. But not everyone goes that way. That was a motivating factor. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, there's a strong desire behind it. Exactly. That's factor. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, there's a strong desire behind it. Exactly. That's key. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And how about for you? What led you to this? Oh, it was a long and winding road. So I am, yeah, I was very shy growing up and it took me a long time to get over that. I mean, I think, so law school did it, I think, but in a really weird way. So in second year, we had to do, it's called a moot. And so it's basically a mock legal argument. So you get your case and you have to come up with, you know, your arguments for or against it and you present it. And they, you know, they had professors, they had upper year students and they had lawyers from the community as the judges. And they would just hammer you with questions. You would get maybe one sentence out and then they would just start asking you questions. And I did do great at this. It was not, you know, it was not my top strength.

And I was still very nervous at that point. And the practitioner, the lawyer who was on my judges panel, heckled like he made fun of me and you just have to stand you just have to stand there and and answer the questions and stay calm and um it was awful it was awful but then you know I got got down from there and sat down and I'm like oh I am not dead I guess it's fine right and um yeah I survived this. And so what's the, what's the worst that anybody could do to me? And then, you know, I practiced law for a while and sometimes you're getting up there and the judge is cranky and they're just not buying what you're trying to sell them. And you just have to, you know, commit and go for it and hope for the best. And sometimes it was, sometimes it was awful. But then there was one day I sat down and, you know, I had it was it was a really challenging day. And I sat down and went, Oh, was that fun? You know, like my heart was beating, but not in a negative way.

Right. You know, fear and excitement are so tightly tied to each other you know like that's why people love horror movies right and sometimes you get to this point where you realize you're you're not experiencing it as fear anymore you're just like you're just amped up yeah and that's when it shifts because then it's not negative anymore it's it's just a thing you do and you can feel good about it that's true that that that definitely happened to to me as well or happens to me pretty much every time I go on stage. It's like I'm terrified and then I settle into kind of like a kind of like alert but like ready state. And then somewhere between the beginning and the end, it's, there's like, it's like, I'm doing the thing. And then at the end, once I've decompressed, it's like, now I'm just excited. Like, when can I do the next one? Let's go. I'm like, yeah, the adrenaline's going, all the good hormones are flooding and everything.

It's like, it's over. You know, do you find you get into that state of flow while you're speaking yeah um but that actually was really difficult for me to learn how to do it and sometimes I'm still I'm struggling to still find the best like hook into that I guess I would say or like you know you've got to like so I find I find storytelling really helps and I know that that's something that I think you teach as well probably is around storytelling yeah as a tactic um there's certain tactics that I've I've learned that that that seem to help trigger that flow state can you talk a little bit about that yeah um where to dive in because there's so much in it yeah I think the biggest part of it is when you start to feel connection with the audience like I'm not performing for people anymore I'm just I'm here I'm doing my thing they're getting something out of it and I find that happens best when I can find a few people in the audience who are they're just into it right you're going to look out at the audience and you're going to have some people who are nodding along. They're going to have some people who are zeroed in on you. You're going to have some people who are looking like this. I'm like, you know, that might just be their face. I, you know, I don't take it personally.

We don't judge. But, you know, so when you find people who are really keyed into what you're saying, and then it's a connection and we're just, you know, I'm just having a one-sided conversation with them or, you know, I really like to be interactive when I can. And so, you know, I'm just having a one-sided conversation with them or, you know, I really like to be interactive when I can. And so, you know, how can I bring them into, you know, to be talking to me? And I find that it, you know, you're interacting with each other in a really deep way. I find for some people movement can really help them with that. So you can use not just body language, but your movement in a space to highlight. So, you know, one technique is if you're kind of comparing and contrasting, you can kind of move over to this space to, you know, compare like before, and then move over to this space when you talk about after. And as you move between those spaces, you're conditioning the audience to think, okay, now she's talking about this, now she's talking about this.

And so you can kind of get the audience into a groove with that, but you can also get yourself into a groove with this. lot of nervous energy on stage and and just being learning how to move strategically she was burning off that nervous energy and she you know it just became yeah I'm like thinking back I'm like that is so me yeah and for the people watching it was just this hypnotic thing and she wasn't just pacing she was moving very purposefully but it was able to kind of meet that need for her to be moving yeah like what I did did recently did a pitch at Invest Ottawa for our other project, the Train to Help project, which we are rebranding soon. And I will release that information shortly. Little tidbit. But I remember I was practicing, we were coming home. I'd almost memorized the whole three minute pitch. And I use a lot of hand motions to help me remember the words, right? And there was this, I was stuck on this one line.

I was like, man, and it's a three minute pitch and they don't give you a second more, right? So you have to literally memorize that whole thing, like word for word for word. And so we were on my way home, Noemi, one of our team members and I were driving home from Collision Conference and literally I was driving from Toronto and then going straight to the Invest Ottawa to do the pitch and I remember you know she's just she's like helping me mime she's literally like miming all of my hand gestures to me and there was one where she was like you know she's doing this and I'm like you know it's just triggering that word for me so and I'm like you gotta stand in front of me in the audience and literally like mime the things with me to try to help me remember this just this one line this these like four words that I couldn't remember for the life of me for some reason because I was exhausted um it just was really funny moment no I love yeah yeah yeah the memory the muscle memory kind of encodes what you want to say and that's why why, you know, you get feedback. Sometimes people will say, oh, you use too many hand gestures. You know, you don't you don't use your hands enough and everyone has their own taste.

So my take is just just do what feels natural because we don't just, you know, we don't just speak with our hands. We think with our hands, right? You're, you know, that message is encoded in the way that you move when you practice it and so if you're certainly forced to you know to keep your hands still when you're used to moving them it's it's harder to think like it's harder to remember what you're trying to say yeah it totally is yeah what other tricks of the trade are uh to get get us into flow get us like locked into yeah oh um well I think one one thing is even before you know even before you start getting familiar with the space that you're in and kind of getting grounded in it so one thing that like most you know professional speakers show up early and just kind of take a look around and get up there in that space and just be there. So you are comfortable and you know, you know where you need to be. You, you, you know how far you can move forward before you fall off the stage and all of this.

And my, my first improv instructor, he taught us this exercise that I absolutely love. And sometimes I do it inside my head, which is, you know, you get into a space and if you're feeling a little bit nervous, okay, it goes like this. My name is Alex Keenan and I own this stage. And when I'm working with clients, if we're working on the nerves, we do some exercises to kind of deconstruct what are the stories that they're telling themselves that are, you know, convincing them that, you know, that this is a bad and scary thing and how can we transform those messages? And then like, we do this, we like out loud with as much swagger as you've got, and you're not just doing it once, you're doing it three times. Oh God. I love it. You're like, become like a whole like WWE announcer. love it you like become like a whole like wwe announcer oh yeah yeah more swagger right that's awesome yeah that's hilarious oh gosh yeah i'm trying to think like what other hacks have i ever employed like i think people sometimes underestimate how much they need to practice i think that's a big one or at least for me i don't know about other people but um i uh i don't think i've ever had anything go well if I haven't practiced enough. No, no, exactly. Yeah. And you need to practice out loud. They get self-conscious because there might be someone in the next room who could hear them. But if you're just reading it to yourself, you're not practicing. No. You need, again, that muscle memory. You need to make that happen. I put sticky notes on the wall with faces drawn on them. So that while I'm practicing, I'm making eye contact with somebody.

Oh, that's a good idea. Yeah. Yeah, really good idea. Actually. Like I've always I found like, I did when it was the disrupt HR. So I can't remember the format. It's like, how many slides 15 slides in five minutes is that right slide every 20 seconds there's a name for that format that I can't remember right now um so there was one that's similar to that is called Pecha Kucha and yeah Pecha Kucha okay yeah there's another one too yeah Pecha Kucha um and that one I that, that was my first like time, like going up and having to memorize something like that, you know? And that one, I remember I, I literally practice in no less than like six different locations. I was like driving all over the world, like practicing because I just wanted to feel comfortable in like any situation. Cause I knew that I had never been there before. It's a weird crowd. It's a weird location. Like I'm, I'm socially anxious. So for me, like practicing in different locations, I think that was really helpful and it went really well. Yeah. Yeah. No, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You really need to, in order to be adaptable to just try it out in different ways in front of different people. Yeah. So how do you help as a coach? Like when you're coming alongside someone and you're like kind of their guide through this, like what, how do you play that role? How does that work? Hmm. So it depends what they need and where they're coming in, usually the first step is addressing, you know, the nerves, the fear, the self-doubt. And we kind of dig into, you know, what's the story that you're telling yourself and how can you rewrite that story?

Because so much of communication, and that includes self-talk, is a habit that you need to, you need to recognize what you're doing. And then you need to be able to You need to recognize what you're doing and then you need to be able to intervene at the right moment in order to make a different choice. And so we work on, you know, the habits of that self-talk. This is all going to go wrong. What if this happens? What if that happens? You know, identify, okay, so if something goes wrong, what are you going to do? Let's make a plan, right? And so then they have a plan. They have, you know, new messages. So when that, you know, what if this bad thing happens? They have, you know, new messages. So when that, you know, what if this bad thing happens, they have, you know, an answer to it. What if this good thing happens? That kind of thing. We own the stage. I work with them on messaging. So a lot of times people come to me and they have something that they are preparing for.

And so we'll work on, you know, what's your message? Who's your audience? What do they need to hear? You know, what are you, what are you trying to accomplish? And how can they help you? And what do they need to hear from you in order to want to help you? What's going to get them excited about helping you? You know, what do they need to know? What do they want to know? What kind of stories will speak to them? And we, you know, we put, we put that together and then we, we work on the delivery and it's, you know, me, you know, we put, we put that together and then we, we work on the delivery and it's, you know, me, you know, they might practice and I'll kind of observe, okay, you know, here, here's what you do really well. Here are the habits that you have, um, that might not be serving you. Here are some practices that I'm going to give you to, you know, to reshape those. We do a lot of, a lot of breathing exercises. Breathing is, is key. we do a lot of a lot of breathing exercises breathing is is key I've gotten into trouble a few times yeah like in breathing when especially when you're like you're like nervous right so you're probably hyperventilating maybe a little bit or at least I noticed that and then it's like you can run out of air really quickly so yeah what how do you how do you help people with that like what's your's your recommendation?

Um, so we, you know, first of all, we do, um, a lot of just, you know, like, um, diaphragmatic breathing, right. Um, getting used to big, deep inhales into, you know, into your diaphragm, not, but you know, deep, deep breath. And so that's, you know, it's a foundation for calming yourself down. First of all, it's a foundation for being able to project your voice. It's a foundation for pacing. Like this is, you know, one of the things that I have worked on and continue to work on because I've always been a really fast talker and I had to train myself to, you know, to speak at a normal human pace. And sometimes when I get excited or nervous, it still comes out. And so, you know, it's doing these different exercises that force you to breathe, that force you to kind of stop and slow down and breathe. And then you're, you know, you're building your lung capacity, you're building your control over your voice. And then, you know, so then we can turn that into, okay, how do you, you know, speak to someone who is five feet in front of you? How do you use that, that voice to speak to someone who's on the other side of the room? How do you use that voice to speak to someone on the other side of the football field, right? So you can control your voice, how it's heard, who it's heard by, how quickly or slowly you go. So you can create, you know, you can create emotions using the speed of your voice.

And yeah, this is just how we, you know, we create a mood and start to influence people based on just how you use your voice. But it starts with being able to control your voice, which starts with being able to control your breath. Right. And the awareness, I guess. Yes. Yeah. Aware awareness is huge yeah yeah okay okay this is awesome I feel like I'm learning a lot thank you for that I'm my pleasure I can nerd out about this all day oh yeah well for sure um the the thing is like it's so important like I don't think people realize like I think public speaking and writing compelling, like writing a compelling anything story, you know, and then turning that into something that you can share with people. I think those are the two most important skill sets probably, or two of the most important skill sets for sure, you know, that you can have period. I mean, if you can have period I mean if you want to sell anything if you want to get your point across if you want to make any change happen you need to be able to convince people to do you know to to understand what you're trying to do and to make it relevant for them right um yeah you can't do that without without those skills no no exactly and um yeah speaking of that you have to be able to be concise about it and this is one of the things that I learned practicing law is you know you might write a 20 page brief for a judge they might read the first line and so you need to be able to summarize your argument in one sentence and I make people do that all the time. Yeah, the presentation, do it to me in one sentence.

And then that's hard. And a lot of people that I work with, they have trouble with rambling. Because, you know, the thoughts are not, you know, fully clarified, or, you know, maybe there's this fear of not being understood. And so we work on how you, you know, narrow this down, how you make it clear and concise because people don't have all day and they're just sitting there going, okay, get to the point, you know, what have you got for me? Yeah, absolutely. Practice, practice, practice, like watch people. If their eyes glaze over, then maybe, you know, maybe try something different. Exactly. Yeah. And so that's where the practice, you know, you can practice what you've got, but then sometimes you have to go off script and that's a whole other skillset that, you know, how do you learn to think more quickly on your feet and how do you, you know, adapt to the unexpected? And that's, you know, another set of skills that I work with people on. Yeah. Like the improv skills almost yeah yeah but like people often think like improv it's like you know oh you're just like winging it or whatever but you're not like people like improv actors they're practicing their craft yeah it is a skill yeah exactly yeah there are principles that you apply to any given situation yeah and lots of pattern recognition as well exactly exactly yeah yeah yeah awesome and yeah I find that really comes in handy like when you know you realize that the audience isn't having it you need to go off script and when uh you're in a Q&A and anything could happen right yes that's true and learning how to like accept constructive feedback like in in the moment as well. I think that's a really, anyways, there's so many things we could talk about. Oh yeah. Uh, I just noticed, I'm noticing the time and we're kind of getting to the time where we start to, you know, think about wrapping up.

Is there anything that you wanted to be like, you know, share with, you know, folks who really want to have their voices heard? Any like final thoughts or inspirational, an inspirational moment? I think that the biggest thing is knowing that people are not observing you as closely as you are observing yourself. There is something called the spotlight effect where, you know, we think that we are being very, very closely observed, everyone else is kind of doing their thing, going about their life and obsessing over how they are being perceived. And so that means two things. It means that you can, you have a lot of leeway to just be yourself, and not really worry about what people are saying. It also means that you have to work a lot harder than you think to get noticed and to get people to retain your ideas. And so I think it's a question of, you know, go out there and be who you are and don't stop being who you are and don't stop saying what you have to say, because that's really, that's what it takes. And I think that, you know, we all have the right to be heard and to be able to exist the way that we are.

Oh, you make me cry. That's beautiful. Thank you so much for joining us, Alex.

It's been such a pleasure.

Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble!

Having had 32 jobs in 15 years, Steph Gillies has amassed an ample amout of experience to learn how to perfect the job search! Now as a professional resume writer and career coach, Steph Gillies helps individuals embrace their identitifies and land their dream jobs in a competitive economy.

Since 2020, she has helped over 1000 people improve their branding, tailor their resumes and land their dream jobs!

So folks, take your pens and papers out, and get ready to take notes on tips and tricks from the resume whisperer!

Stay in touch with Steph:

http://www.linkedin.com/in/stephgillies

Instagram: @destinationdreamjob

For more on Steph and her services:

http://www.destinationdreamjob.com

Hiring managers are going to see the same resume, like that looks very similar from like 10 different people. And if you can really showcase your uniqueness and what sets you apart, that's really what's going to stand out.

Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work today. My name is Erin Patchell, your host, and I'm here with Steph Gillies, who is, well, how about we just let Steph say hi for now.

Hey, how's it going?

And now I will introduce you. So Steph is a career story coach helping individuals embrace their misfit identity and land their dream job. She's had 32 jobs in 15 years and through that experience she really learned how to perfect the job search. When she was laid off from what she thought was her dream job in 2020, she jumped full-time to business as a resume writer and career coach and has since helped over 1,000 people improve their branding and land their dream job. Welcome to the podcast.

Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

My pleasure and we kind of got the opportunity to work together a few years ago, which is how we met.

Yeah, unfortunately, not too closely. But I always heard such great things about the work that you did. And yeah, so you're you're a real pro.

Oh, thank you.

Yeah. And then I heard about you through, you know, that same organization and the great work that you're doing with your new company. So thank you so much. Yes. OK, so before we get started, why don't you just tell folks a little bit about yourself other than, you know, maybe something that's not in your bio? Like, what is it that brings you joy? Yeah, I think that, you know, working with people over the past few years, there's a few things that I've really learned and that I really love to share with people that I've learned from different people. You know, when I grew up, when I was younger, people always told me, you know, you got to go to school, get a job, work there until you retire. Right.

That was the message. You know, a lot of baby boomers passed on that message to their kids. And I was one of those people who had that message passed on. And, you know, after, you know, helping a thousand people with their personal branding and, you know, their career story, it's quite interesting to see how many people, you know, don't have that linear career path and how many people have made complete changes in their life. And so I'm one of those people who've made lots of different changes throughout my career. You know, I have multiple passions. I'm very excited about different things.

And, you know, I think that I know this is supposed to be about me and I'm not talking about me at all, but I think that's just really, you know, what I'm passionate about and what my message is, is to really teach people that you don't have to just be one thing. You know, you can be whatever you want to be. If you want to change your job, you know, five times you go and do that. If you want to marry multiple jobs together, I think that's also really exciting.

And so, yeah, so I think that's kind of what I'm really passionate about and kind of a little bit of my own story as well. Yeah. Okay. So let's a little nugget from within that, like finding that thread. So I think a lot of people have a hard time with that when they're multi-passionate and, you know, maybe they're curious about lots of things and they want to dive into lots of things and live lots of different lives, like especially career lives.

You still need to find that thread through everything. Like what is it that connects all the dots so that your next employer, you know, can understand your story. So maybe we can take that and table it and talk about that a little bit later because I think that could be yeah for sure yeah so uh what makes you a weirdo Steph Gillies um well you know I call myself a misfit because I never really felt like I fit in you know growing up I went to an all girls private school um I wore a kilt every day to school and I've worn a dress maybe three times since then.

You know, I never really, I never really felt like I fit in with all the girls and, you know, but I wasn't, you know, boyish enough to fit in with the boys. And so I was always kind of, I was always kind of different. And I went to church for a while and I would ask a lot of questions and they would tell me to stop asking questions because it's just about, you know, whatever the message was that they were giving and that didn't work for me either.

And so, and then, you know, as you, as you shared in my bio, I had 32 jobs in 15 years and every time I would get into a job, I would get really good at it and then I would get bored. So I'd move on to something else. This was before I knew what informational interviews were, and I probably could have saved myself a lot of time had I done a little more research, but that's okay. It's part of my story. And, you know, it was a lot of fun. Honestly, I had, you know, at one point I had like four different jobs. They were all part-time and I just, yeah, I was just marrying different passions together, trying different things and trying to find out what fit. And so I think that, you know, in my 30s has really been the time where I have embraced a lot more of who I am, rather than trying to fight it or trying to hide from it.

So I, you know, this in the past two years, I shaved my head and got my nose pierced. So you know, it's been a lot of fun. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You can be whoever you want to be. you know it's been a lot of fun yeah yeah absolutely you can be whoever you want to be I think that's like a general sense that especially younger people have today the you know I'm raising whatever three uh gen z kids gen z yeah that's right oh my gosh my brain is like not it's like not computing all of the different generations these days. What are they all called again? Yeah, so three Gen Zs and they are fully whoever they want to be. You know what I mean? Like they literally don't care. They're just like going to be who they are.

So I think we need to prepare for that too. Totally. Yeah, it's a different world now than it was for sure when I was growing up. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, don't put baby in the corner. Yeah. It's a different world now than it was for sure when I was growing up. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Don't put baby in the corner. Yeah. That was not the message at the all girls Catholic school that I went to. So Oh my gosh. But it's okay.

So you've worked with, you've helped over 1000 people improve their brand branding, their career stories and land their dream job. How did you end up in this niche after having, you know, what was it, 32 jobs in 15 years? Yeah, it's so when I had done all those jobs, I was kind of, you know, trying to, I'd always been interested in business. And so I was like, what could I do? And I found, you know, Career Profession professionals of Canada. And I was like, oh, there's a resume certification. So about nine years ago now, I took that certification. And I was like, maybe I'll do something with it. But then I was full time in the nonprofit world, which as most people know, it's a lot of work, you know, you're often overworked and underpaid. And so I was just busy, you know, doing that. And I wasn't really focusing on, you know, you're often overworked and underpaid. And so I was just busy, you know, doing that. And I wasn't really focusing on, you know, my business in my spare time.

So I only wrote a few resumes. And when I was laid off in 2020, it was kind of a decision point for me. I had to decide, you know, do I want to go back to work in the nonprofit world, which I wasn't super excited about? Or, you know, should I just dive in and start a business? And so I took some time to think about it and I did decide to dive into business. I had a part, I did get a part-time job while, while I was off and then I completely quit it. And I started two businesses actually, but the other one didn't work out. And one of them was writing resumes. And I thought, you know, this will just be temporary. It's something that I know how to do and I'll, I'll get good at it. And then, you know, I'll just figure out what I want to do. And here we are three years later, I'm still doing it. You know, I love, I love helping people, you know, figure out that career story and really helping them to identify what sets them apart so that when they are applying for jobs, then they can, you know, stand out in the job application process because, you know, everyone and their dog says they're really good at teamwork.

So how can you set yourself apart from the people who are like, Hey, I'm great at teamwork, you know, because we all say that in our resume. So my clients don't, but like, no, I'm not good at teamwork. Like, no, I hate that. Yeah. Oh yeah. I have people that were like that. Yeah. Don't put that in there. That's not true. Right. Like, yeah. Well, and knowing, knowing your strengths, right. Not just knowing your strengths, knowing your, you know, your purpose, your interests. So diving into that, how essential would you say that is in terms of the job search like today compared to the way it was when you first started? Yeah. You know, with remote work, I mean, I started my business right in the middle of the pandemic. And so things were changing, you know, as I started. But I noticed that, you know, pre-pandemic, you know, they said the stats are the average application gets about 250 applicants, which is a lot. You know, when you think about that, that's a lot. But nowadays with remote work, we're talking like, I don't know the exact stats, so don't quote me on this, but we're talking like, I've heard recruiters say they get like 5,000 to 2,000, sorry, 500 to 2,000 applicants per job application.

So that's crazy. Like, how are you even supposed to navigate that many, that many resumes? Like it's not possible. So that means that the, for sure. Yeah. That means that it's so much more competitive than it was before. And I would say that's, that's more true for entry level positions rather than, you know, if you're mid-level or senior level, director level, you're not, your competition is not as high because, you know, there's just less people who have the experience that you're bringing to the table. And so this is more for those entry-level positions like customer service roles, you know, office administration, you know, types of roles like that. They're really getting a lot of applicants because people can apply now from all across Canada to the same role if it's remote, of course.

Yeah. So, you know, you're literally the perfect person to be talking to this audience because a lot of our listeners are multi-passionate, multi-hyphenate generalists, weirdos, rebels, like don't fit neatly inside a box, have a little bit of a chip on their shoulder, you know, want to try different things, maybe didn't feel like they were a right fit in a lot of places. So like, what, what kind of advice do you give to people right now in this economy, when they have that sort of that, that, that, you know, they need a purpose. They need, they need to be passion driven. Yeah. I think when you're, when you're really looking at the job application process right now is the best time to really lean into your uniqueness, your superpowers, you know, what sets you apart. You know, the hiring managers are going to see the same resume, like that looks very similar from like 10 different people. And if you can really showcase your uniqueness and what sets you apart, that's really what's going to stand out.

So an example I have is I have a client who is a death doula. So she helps people transition into the next life. And that is typically I would like two years ago, I would say no, we're not going to include that on your resume. Like, that doesn't make sense. It's not relevant. And she was applying to sales roles. But now we actually incorporated that into her resume and into her story because it's a huge part of showing how she can really relate to people on a different level. relate to people on a different level. And so, you know, if you have two sales resumes that both are very similar, but this one person has this really strong empathy that she brings from, you know, a different certification and something different that she does, and she's able to, you know, really relate to people from all different walks of life, you now start to see a difference between these two sales resumes that are almost exactly the same.

And so really diving into, you know, what are those things outside of work that you can leverage? Like someone else I know does, you know, triathlons, you know, different things like that, that showcase that, you know, they, they have drive and dedication, you know, anything that you can think of, that's really going to set yourself apart and, and explaining why, like, it's not good enough to just put like, you know, triathlon finisher, right? You need to explain why that's important. You know, what is it about the triathlon that you think would be beneficial to this, this role or this position or to who you are. And I think that's really where you're starting to see the differences, especially with recruiters. Um, I was talking to a recruiter recently and he said the most frustrating thing he finds is when he sees a whole bunch of resumes and none of them say why they want to apply to this position, right?

None of them have drawn the line from A to B. They're all just like, you know, the same, the same resume that they're submitting to everything. They're not like, this is why I'd be the best fit for this job. This is why I'm applying to this job. This is what sets me apart, right? That's what he wanted to see. So I thought that was quite interesting. And is what's the best way to articulate that or where is the best? Is it like in the email body? Is it the cover letter? Is it within the resume? Like, how do you do that? Yeah, I mean, it's really, there's no rules in terms of where to include that because that is a different, that is a different take than it used to, you know, than two years ago. So definitely the cover letter is an easy place to include that. But I, but for this, um, for the sales client that I was sharing, we put it right in the resume.

You know, we put it right in that top paragraph because we're showcasing what sets her apart and why she would be the best fit for this position. And so instead of just, you know, having a top paragraph that's like four sentences that are pretty general about why you'd be the best fit, this one was very targeted using, you know, her empathy and her other experience to showcase why she would be the best person for this position. Because typically hiring managers do look at that resume first, and they kind of, you know, at that point they decide, you know, is this a keeper or one to get rid of?

And then they'll review the cover letter after, you know, maybe look up LinkedIn. Um, but they're not looking at all the documents for all 500 people who are applying to the role. Right. So that first part of your resume is the most important real estate. Cause that's really where they're looking first. of your resume is the most important real estate because that's really where they're looking first. Interesting. And in terms of like, I'm assuming employers are still using ATS systems, the automated, I don't know what it stands for.

Applicant tracking systems. Yeah. Applicant tracking system. Can you tell I'm not a recruiter or in recruitment or in this field at all? And nor do I use them, by the way. So applicant tracking systems, I'm assuming are just like being used more than ever, probably. Is that true? Yeah. So I mean, there's like hundreds of applicant tracking systems out there. So it's hard to say, you know, what, you know, some of the features are. But what I've noticed is generally speaking, applicant tracking systems aren't eliminating people without a human eye. So typically the resumes go into the applicant tracking system and then the human, the recruiter is doing this keyword searching. And then they're doing that searching kind of based on the keywords that they put in the job posting and then finding which resumes pop up based on that. I mean, that's not a hard and fast rule because a lot of ATSs out there do their own thing and who knows what they all do. But if you have like, you know, specific qualifications, like it requires a bachelor's degree and you don't have one, then yes, it can eliminate you. But typically it's, you know, the hiring manager who's doing the searching. Right. Okay. Yeah.

So, I mean, education is probably still the number one thing. Is it still the number one thing that, um, that businesses are looking for these days in terms of, you know, um, like qualifications, like basic qualifications? Um, I think it depends on the company, honestly. I've seen, um, you would be surprised by the amount of executive resumes I've written that don't even have an education section on the resume because they don't have any education. They have a high school degree that they diploma that they have from like 25 years ago. And so it's really not as important as it would have been, you know, 10 years ago. Education was everything. I think now once you hit 10 years into your career, you're really they're really looking at that experience over your education. Because like, for example, a client of mine is in software engineering. And he had a Bachelor of Software Engineering from like 1985.

Like, that's not even relevant. Yeah, not even relevant anymore. not even relevant yeah it's like not even relevant anymore the systems he was working on in school don't even exist so yeah so I think that I mean I think education is important but I also don't think that it's everything you know it's it's I'm not a huge post-secondary person um I think that you know you have a bachelor's degree it's good enough you don't need to go back for too much more unless it's something you're really excited about but um I think I mean you know, if you have a bachelor's degree, it's good enough. You don't need to go back for too much more unless it's something you're really excited about. But I think, I mean, if you're applying to schools, like universities, if you're applying to banks, any of those more traditional fields, they're going to be looking at your education.

But if you're looking at, you know, more new age organizations, you know, anything in software, you know, any of those companies that are more forward thinking the education is definitely less important interesting okay well that's definitely new um canadian job market like you know it how would you describe it right now i would say it's competitive um i would say that the typically people you know, the stats were that you would get a new job in three to six months. And I would say that, I mean, these are my own stats that I'm just making up, like the ones that I'm sharing that are updated. I would say now most of my clients are seeing more like six to nine months just because it's taking because the competition is higher. It's taking longer because you have to apply to more jobs. And networking is just so much more important than it was, because if you know someone in an organization who can share your name with the hiring manager, it's just and they have a thousand applications to go through.

You can bet that your name is going to go to the top of that list because that saves them a whole lot of time in doing that searching. because that saves them a whole lot of time in doing that searching. So really leveraging your network and seeing what's out there is, is a great way to kind of move that forward. Okay, yep. Good advice. So the the sort of like the hidden job market is alive and well. I'm seeing a lot of people complaining, like I'm hearing from a lot of job seekers that they seem to be like rejected almost immediately. Like they'll submit their resume. And I've had a few clients for whom this was true. They'd submit their resume and like within like an hour, they'd have a rejection, even though they felt like they qualified for the job. Do you think is that, that sounds pretty automated to me, would you say? Yeah, definitely. I would say that some sort of, you know, applicant tracking system, you know, I don't know, I'm not an applicant tracking system expert, but I just like, that makes me wonder, I wonder if they hit a limit, like they're like, oh, we're only going to accept 300 applications.

I don't know, this is just conjecture, but you know, maybe they hit like, you know, they're only going to accept this many. I don't know, this is just conjecture, but, you know, maybe they hit like, you know, they're only going to accept this many. And if you're not in the top 300, then they just automatically reject you or they have specific, sometimes they, you can set up an applicant tracking system to have specific like formula or keywords that they look for. And if you don't have that, then they just don't even bother. And that might be, you know, the hiring manager's way to whittle down these like, you know, 500 applicants down to something more manageable. But I don't I'm not 100% sure about that. Right. So probably worth applying early, applying often and reapplying with new information if necessary.

And hiring someone like you probably to help out with that. Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, a lot of my clients, when they have an updated resume and one that they can tailor to the applications, they do start to see more interviews. Of course. Yeah. There's any specific format that people should be, you know, either wary of or like a best practice that you'd recommend? I mean, the chronological format is typically the best format. And that's where you have, a little description at the top, a list of maybe your skills, and then your work education in reverse chronological order. So most recent first, obviously, because nobody cares really, but what you did 20 years ago, that's typically the best format.

I do see some people who use a functional format. A functional format is where you front load all of your skills and then you just list your work experience and don't actually describe it. And that can be a concern. Hiring managers do tend to find that one a little bit concerning because they wonder if a you know, a client is, you know, trying to hide something, hide, you know, a career gap or hide the fact that maybe they didn't do this job for 10 years and they've done something else for the past 10 years and they're trying to hide that. And so they really want to see, you know, accomplishments under each work experience rather than just like all the accomplishments at the top because that way they can know that okay this is the past five years that they've done this you know really great work or um you know or it wasn't in their previous job you know maybe six years ago but they can see that it's recent and not something that you're trying to hide so i would definitely steer away from that functional format and steer towards that chronological format even though sometimes the functional format is a little easier. Yeah. And are people are, would you say like employers or hiring managers are more willing to sort of like accept people with gaps in their resumes or is it still like a major bias? I'm none of my clients. I mean, everyone has a gap in their resume now, like really COVID, um, created lots of gaps in resumes.

And so I don't think that that hasn't really been a problem for a lot of my clients. Um, you know, I think the key is in an interview that you can explain why there's a gap, you know, what, what was the, what was happening there? I think the bigger issue, and I don't want to say issue because I don't think it's a gap, you know, what, what was the, what was happening there? I think the bigger issue, and I don't want to say issue because I don't think it's an issue, but like people feel like it's an issue is when they maybe took 10 years off to parent their kids or whatever, you know, be the home manager. And there's ways around that, you know, like for some of my clients who have done that, we actually add that in as a work experience. I worked with a client who had a husband who had a very severe, you know, medical issue. And so she took five years off and she was caring for him.

And she was like, now I have nothing to put on my resume. And I was like, this is absolutely a job. Just because you don't get paid for it doesn't mean you don't have work experience. Because she was planning all his medical appointments, him to these appointments you know advocating for his needs um you know caring for him as needed doing everything around the home you know so we just created a job around that um and we we described it in the same way that you would a regular job and it just showcases that you, there are transferable skills from those times in your life when you might need to, you know, take care of kids or do something different or go on a, go on a one year sabbatical and travel the world.

I mean, there's lots of things that you can bring out of those experiences that give you more of that life experience. Yeah. Awesome. Okay. So let's go back to the the the like drawing a thread like the the branding the storytelling side of this uh do you have any clients who how are just like had like like a really diverse like wacky kind of job experience and like tell me like how you actually helped them create a story out of this yeah I mean my own story is like a good example, but also like I worked with another client who was laid off like four times in three years. And so how do you turn that into a story that doesn't make it look like they're jumping around so much? And then same with myself, you know, having 32 jobs, how do you create a resume that doesn't look like I can't make up my mind about anything.

And so it's really about, about getting creative and sometimes having multiple resumes. So when I was creating my own resume, when I was applying for jobs, I had different resumes for different focuses. So I'd like, you know, if I was doing customer service, then I would have one resume that focused only on the jobs that were specific to that role. And then, you know, if I wanted to do something, I mean, I did weird things. So if I wanted to apply to be like a rock climbing instructor, because that's one of the things I did, I would have a resume specific for that with the different jobs that I had where I like taught rock climbing and like, you know, whatever. So there were multiple different threads and I just like picked and choosed which resume fit based on the application that I was applying for.

So that's a really great way. I mean, I still do that. I have a resume focused one. I have a workshop focused one and I have a mental health focused resume and they're all a little bit different in how they describe my work experience and how they describe, you know, what my skills are. And so same thing for this client who was laid off, you know, several times. they describe, you know, what my skills are. And so same thing for this client who was laid off, you know, several times. There's, you know, I also had another client who had like 10 jobs in five years, like it was wild. And how do you turn that into a resume that a hiring manager isn't going to think is red flags. And so some ways to do it is to combine roles together.

So if you had some really similar positions, like this one person was a recruiter at three different companies and they were all, you know, they were one after the other, but there was just a lot of layoffs involved in there. And so instead of, you know, listing them each separately, we combined them together into one role and listed the different companies so that because the job description, the accomplishments were essentially the same. And, um, it showed that he had been a recruiter for like a year and a half instead of showing like, you know, three, six months stints or whatever. Um, so trying to get, just getting creative about it and remember that there's like, there are resume rules, but that doesn't mean that you can't break them. Right. That's why we're here. That's why we're weirdos at work. Let's break the rules. Um, so, you know, if you have, if you have two jobs that are the same, just put them together. Like you don't need to separate them or, you know, I've seen so many resumes where they list three jobs and then all, all the bullet points are exactly the same. You're like, who wants to read that? Nobody wants to read that just as much as you don't want to write it.

So, you know, put those together. They don't need to be separated. And, you know, describing, you can sometimes take the opportunity to describe any red flags in your cover letter. So for this individual who'd been laid off a bunch of times, you know, there's an opportunity for her to explain in her cover letter, you know, this isn't me jumping around. This was, you know, experienced multiple layoffs and was able to secure jobs really quickly, which can show your determination, your innovation, you know, your ability to network, you know, just showcasing those skills and explaining to a hiring manager why, you know, why it's not a red flag. not a red flag. Right. Okay. Gotcha. And in terms of like the, like a lot of the time I have clients coming to me and they're like, they've like you, they're very diverse in what they've done a lot of the time because they have many different interests and, or, you know, failed fast. You know what I mean? They're like, well, don't like that one. Don't like that one.

Don't like that one. What do I like? And I think that's the whole point. It's like, what, what drew you to that in the first place? Was it like, what, what drew you to that in the first place? Was it like, in some cases, obviously it's going to be like money. That's important for a lot of people, survival. But if it's not survival, usually we have some options, you know, so there has to be something, you know, within that, that drew you there.

So what is that thread that we can pull out? How do you do work with clients on that? Is that something that you can incorporate into your work? Yeah, absolutely. I'm just currently reading the book, How to Be Everything, a guide for those who still don't know what they want to be when they grow up by Emily Wapnick. She has a really great, they have a really great TED talk that we can link in the show notes. And it's all about, you know, people who are the term that they, that they created was multi-potentialite. So someone who has lots of different, you know, passions or maybe changes their mind a lot. Hello, that's me. You know, but, but the interesting thing about this book is that they talk about how I'm just trying to articulate. Think about my thoughts here. They talk about how, you know, in the world, it's it's expected to stick with one thing.

Right. You're going to get a job and you're going to stick with it. And then if you if you do move, it's going to be in the same industry or it's going to be a similar job. if you do move, it's going to be in the same industry or it's going to be a similar job. But one thing that I found really interesting about this concept is that these people who are multi-potentialites might finish a job sooner. So like, what is the end for you? Why did it end? So for me, like when I think about when I, after reading this book and then thinking back onto my experience, I was always like, oh, what's wrong with me? I can't make a decision. I can't stick to one thing. You know, everyone else has this like decision of what they want to be and they're sticking to it.

And I can't do that. Like, why is this a problem for me? And this book really talks about how, um, how, you know, what is there's, there's obviously something you get out of it and however you end it is, is how you want to end it. So like I would, I would master something. I would get really good at a job and then I would get bored and be like, okay, well that was cool, but now I don't want to do that anymore and move on. And so that was me completing something just in a different way, in a non-traditional way, rather than completing something in a traditional way where you just stick with it forever. And so really thinking about, you know, what are those things that you're getting out of these, out of these experiences and knowing that just because you change your mind or want to move on to something different, or you learned everything you need to know about that. And now you're ready to try something different. That's not a problem, right? Like that's okay. You can do that and still have a really fulfilling career.

I've worked with lots of people who are like, you know, I'm so concerned about my resume because, you know, I've jumped around different industries and I'm not, you know, a specialist in anything. And the world wants a specialist, you know, that's what the world wants. That's what everyone thinks. The world wants a specialist. But what I've noticed is that a lot of these people who are more generalists or Jack or Jill of all trades, whatever you want to call it, they tend to be able to secure jobs in many different areas because they can take their skills, everything they've learned in one industry, they can bring it into another industry, bring new perspectives and new ideas. Then they learn everything they want about that industry.

And they're like, okay, now let's go implement this into a new industry and then really bring that innovation. And so I think that, um, I don't really remember what the initial question was because I just like talking about something I'm excited about, but I think that is really, um, you know, what people need to focus on, right? Like being who, being truly who you want to be and leveraging that and not worrying about, you know, the world saying you need to be a specialist or you need to choose one thing because you don't need to choose one thing. No. Okay. It's about building the story and knowing who you are and why you're engaging in certain things and really trying to understand yourself in order to build that thread through all of your stories, all of your different work experiences.

And then eventually what you did and what I did is like, cause my, my, not quite as dramatic in terms of like 32, but like, you know, I did do quite a few things that are very different, like very, very like all over the place kind of stuff. But figuring out why I was doing that took a long time. And once I did, it actually helped me figure out what I wanted to do and that what I wanted to do that I could actually do for a while, probably, you know, and similar story for you, I think. Yeah. I mean, I think being in business is a great place for people who are multi-passionate because, you know, you can make changes, you know, every day is a little bit different. It's often not, you know, when you get into a job, it can sometimes be exactly the same every day, depending on the type of job you're in.

And so being in business is just an easy way to kind of make your own career and make it what you want. And when you get bored, you make a change, right? Like you can hire someone to do that thing you mastered and train them on it and then try to do something different, right? Like there's definitely opportunities there. Definitely. Yeah. Awesome. So I can just, I'm sensing the time here, but this has been a really, really awesome conversation. I hope this resonated with a lot of people. So practical, your advice.

And we're going to make sure that everyone knows how to get in touch with you in the show notes, the website, LinkedIn, you know, everything, your podcast as well. And I think I'm coming on your podcast. We recorded some point. When's that going to, when's that happening? I don't sure. I'd have to look. I didn't look. I don't remember these types of things. Okay. So I'm going to be on Steph's podcast. Steph's coming on our podcast.

And I guess finally, do you have any like words of inspiration for folks who are kind of going through, you know, a job search or, you know, feel like they're a bit of a misfit and trying to like put all the puzzle pieces together? Yeah. I think there's a quote from that book. I was sharing how to be everything by Emily Wapnick. And it says, what would your life be like if you gave yourself permission to be everything you want it to be? So I think that's been like a really big message in my own life recently is just like, stop fighting, you know, the parts of yourself that are multi-passionate or the parts of yourself that want to do these, you know, other things, and just really embrace it and, and really start to dive into who you are.

Because the people who come to me who are typically really, like confident and authentic, they tend to land jobs quicker than people who are like, you know, more like, Oh, I'm not really sure I don't want to, I don't want to talk about myself, or I don't want to share that because that's too much or whatever.

You know, those people tend to struggle a little more in their job search because they're not, they're not portraying their full self and they're not portraying themselves in a confident way. So really just, you know, embracing that authenticity, embracing who you are and just really showing up as yourself, you know, whatever that means and whatever you're comfortable sharing. I think that is the big key. That's an amazing message to close things out. Thanks so much.

Yeah, thank you for having me. It was great to be here.

Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble!

Amy Davies, CEO of HR tech and training firm First30 and author of "A Spark in the Dark" is a specialist in employee onboarding, retention, and outplacement services, having gotten her start at major companies like Unilever, Rogers and Mars/Wrigley.

With her experiences personally and professionally, and armed with knowledge derived from Robert D Hare and other researchers, Amy is spreading awareness on the inconspicuous psychopaths that are found in the workplace.

In this episode we dive into the three types of psychopaths, the best ways to protect yourself, how to identify them and more. Hang on tight, because the "blood hungry" psychopaths aren't the only dangerous ones. Prep your ears for an honest and thought-provoking conversation on the psychopaths found in corporate!

—-

Stay in touch with Amy:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daviesamy/
• Instagram: @amydaviesfirst30
• https://first30ready.com/

Read the book:

• Without Conscience by Robert D Hare, Ph.D

Script:

When you feel too good around someone or they're coming on really strong, stop and say, why do I feel so connected with this new person in my life so quickly?

Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work. And I'm here with Amy Davies. Amy, say hello.

Hello. Great to be here.

Very happy for you to be here. Amy is the CEO of First30, the author of A Spark in the Dark. She's a specialist in employee onboarding, retention, and outplacement services, having gotten a start at major companies like Unilever, Rogers, and Mars Wrigley. Amy also has a new book coming out soon called What Employees Want, Proven Strategies to Attract, Retain, and Engage Talent. And she's the proud owner of a beautiful Doberman named Riker.

Yes. And as I was telling you, that is the most important role that I play in life. I'm really his servant. That's basically how it works. Dobermans are beautiful creatures.

Oh,'re very nice very nice how old is Riker tell me more

Yeah well he's three and a half and for any of your Star Trek fans out there I'm a big Star Trek fan I maybe will hold back from calling myself a Trekkie but I do I am a bit obsessed and there is a character William Riker in Star Trek and so and he's universally liked and a very compelling character and he's the second in command so he's considered number one to Jean-Luc Picard so that's why right that's where Riker's name comes from.

Sorry, I'm nerding out now, but I can't. So do you see like, like cosplaying in your future with this? I don't, you know, I don't get too into it. It's actually something my son and I, we got into watching Star Trek together and I find there's so many lessons for kids to learn about compassion, about different societies and acceptance. And there's a lot of moral, great moral lessons in that show. And I think when you only see it from the perspective that it's about like weird aliens, we get a totally different view, but there's a very, there's is so ahead of its time as well it's so so interesting so highly recommend i never really watched the series but i loved the movies when i was a kid star trek movies like next generation or i can't remember there's a few of them but yeah yeah anyways i'm not a big trekkie myself but if you ever get into it, we'll talk.

Yeah, okay. Yeah. I guess we will, I'm sure. Okay, so we are on a podcast. This podcast is called Weirdos in the Workplace. So before we kick things off, I'd love to know, Amy, you know, is have you ever felt like a weirdo or a rebel, or just not quite fitting in at some point in your life? And tell me about that.

Well, one of the reasons that I started my own business and always knew that I was kind of designed to start my own business was that I never felt like I could just go tow the company line. That was just never me. I never enjoyed being part of an in group where there was people that were in and then there was people that were out. And I could never go along with a company strategy just because the company said this is our strategy. Even if I could put a smile on my face and move forward, I really struggled with it internally when I wasn't bought in to what the decisions the business was making. And the biggest thing for me is that I found and wrote a great book about this called Think, Do, Say. And, you know, companies saying a lot of things that I knew from the inside that they weren't actually doing. So I never felt like I fit in to companies, even though I really liked the people I worked with, I really enjoyed it. But I kind of had an entire career where I always felt like a little bit of an outsider. And much like HR, it's your job to put the third party hat on. I had a role in businesses that required that I was almost I had to be objective in my role. So I actually had permission to sit a little outside and comment on what was going on inside. And that felt very comfortable for me.

So yeah, to answer your question, basically my whole career, I felt like even though I presented like an insider, and I'm sure many of us go through that, we are saying all the right things and we're smiling and nodding, but inside we're feeling dramatically different. What led you? Was there like a moment or a culmination of moments that led you to starting your own business? Well, I worked for another entrepreneur fairly early on in my career. We had a complicated relationship, but I really did admire aspects of his business, of his business acumen. And I learned so much from him. And I did really well at the company. And it was the first time I realized that I can do this, like I could actually, I'm not a salesperson by, you know, the traditional view of what a salesperson is. But I realized that I was really good at building relationships. And I got him a ton of new clients. And I thought, oh, my gosh, if I can make him all this money, certainly I could do this for myself one day. And that started me off on the path of becoming an entrepreneur. So while I say we had a complicated relationship, I really appreciate what he taught me. I learned so much from him. And so I am very grateful for that experience. But it is and I'm learning now as a business owner, how difficult it is to run a business. So I can empathize more with what he was going through when I worked for him on in the very early stages of building his business. Yeah. And I know we've both worked for like inspirational bosses, we've both had, you know, not so inspirational bosses, probably or people that we've worked with or people we've, you know, friends who've worked with people, you know, and, and that kind of leads us to, I think our topic. Great segue. Great segue.

Just for the folks listening, you know, Amy and I had a chat probably what it was like a few weeks ago maybe a month ago um and you know talking about like what are we going to talk about on the podcast and amy brought to me this idea of you know something that was a little bit different and i thought it was amazing and all amy i'd like to like what how did this you you thought i would want to talk about my something to do with my actual products and services but no I suggested we discuss this book called Without Conscience and it's called Without Conscience the Disturbing World of Psychopaths Who Live Among Us or the Psychopaths Among Us by Robert D. Hare. And he's actually a Canadian. And he's a world-renowned criminal psychologist who is a member of the Order of Canada.

He created the psychopathy checklist, which is widely used in the criminal and judicial system in more countries than just Canada. So for once, we have the leading thinker in a space. And so my life has been touched by a psychopath. And I think most people's lives have, I believe, I'm going to say I believe that I lived with a psychopath for eight years of my adult life. And when I moved away from that situation, I really felt strongly that I had something went terribly wrong. It was an awful situation. And I thought, how can I protect myself? And I think like many of the people who are your listeners, they've had an experience where they've worked with someone, maybe it's someone in their personal life, but maybe they've worked in a place, and I've had this experience too, sadly, where they feel that they are dealing with someone they can't reason with, who acts out in anger, who treats them really poorly, no matter how they change their behavior, that person stays the same. And I, and I think that my intent with this, having this conversation today, is that I want to do what Dr. Hare is aiming to do. And that's to spread awareness about psychopaths, because I find I present I do corporate talks as well. And I'll talk about psychopaths during these talks and what I've learned from dr hair and there's always giggles in the room always and i want us to get to a point where it doesn't feel like someone getting up there talking about extraterrestrials uh it's about someone getting up there talking about a real problem dr hair and there have been estimates that are higher um but he talks about maybe 1% of the North American population being non murderous psychopaths. But there are estimates that raise it to about four to 5%, with five to 15%, showing some like who are borderline. And so this these are people are murderers. Is that what you're saying?

No borderline psychopaths. Okay, gotcha. We can get into it in more detail. But the way to think about it is that there's a very small percentage of psychopaths who are actually blood hungry, like Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer. That's often the visualization we have of these people or the people like, Dr. Hare talks about it a lot in his book, Hannibal Lecter, right? I wish that what we could do is take all of these, like, especially in the media, they create these monstrosities of people, these evil geniuses who are murderous and compelling, remove that from your mind. That is not the reality. These people, when you dig under the surface, are very, very base people. They're very boring if you remove all the bells and whistles. But I do think that we have to realize that this person is someone we might get on the elevator with every day. There's someone we'll like bump into at the grocery store. We might meet them on a Tinder date, right? So we have to be very careful. And there are ways that we can protect ourselves from these people as well that I think will be really important to talk about today. But I thought it would be helpful to talk about today. But I want I thought it would be helpful to talk about how Robert Hare defined psychopaths, but also what their brain activity looks like, because this is not just a airy, there's nothing airy fairy about it. It's grounded in research and science. And so I thought it would be helpful to maybe pull out a quote from his book, if that's okay.

Psychopaths are social predators who charm, manipulate and ruthlessly plow their way through life, leaving selfishly take what they want, and do as they please, violating social norms, and expectations without the slightest sense of guilt or regret. So that's how he talks about what a psychopath is. It's important for us to recognize, though, they've done tests on the minds of people who are psychopaths. And what they find from a neurological perspective, is that the for our brains, we have the amygdala and that lights up when exciting things happen. And we you know, we get it's our kind of reaction to rewards. But in a psychopath, this lights up far more strongly in response to reward stimulus. Oh, interesting. Yes, but there's more. There's the prefrontal cortex, and this is responsible for empathy, the regulation of our emotion, emotions promoting pro-social behavior. And there is reduced connectivity between the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala in people who are psychopaths. So your rewards are going crazy and the lighting up and not connecting as well with the prefrontal cortex. There was some really interesting brain science that he included in that book, actually around like the left and right brain and how they regulate emotions as well.

That was, I thought, very fascinating. I would highly recommend folks to read this book if you're finding this conversation interesting right now, because you'll see that it goes so, so deep. It's just like Alice going right down that rabbit hole right um and storytelling that he he produces as well so many stories about psychopaths and many stories about psychopaths in the workplace which I found really interesting um it was written oh sorry about that oh go ahead yeah it was written in a time before trigger warnings but I want to put a trigger warning, like huge red flag. It was a really hard book to read. And I have a headache right now. And I think it's because I spent the weekend finishing my research for this podcast. And it's, yeah, I'm not gonna lie. Like when I first started listening to the audiobook, because I'm not going to lie. Like when I, when I first started listening to the audio book, cause I'm an audio book girl, I was like, what did I do? This is, it was really hard. It was hard to read. And it's especially hard to think all of us have a little bit of trauma probably going on, you know, and it is a little bit triggering, but if you can push past it, you know, really, really worthwhile. Yeah, it is worthwhile, because being aware is your first line of defense. And, and I'll give you the example, okay, because these are people who are, they mimic the behavior that gets them what they want, even though they don't really understand. And it's described in the book, I don't know if you remember this, and correct me if I'm getting the quote wrong. But they know the words, not the music.

Yes. And so they're learning over time. And that's why they're able to be so charismatic and charming at the beginning. And they do. And so what I do now, is if you are engaged with a new person in a workplace, imagine, and I want you to build this picture for yourself, you go into a workplace, imagine, and I want you to build this picture for yourself. You go into a workplace and there's someone that's super helpful. Not everyone that's very helpful is going to be a psychopath. And so we have to be careful. But it's that person who's like, if you have any issues, I'm the person to come to. I'm going to help you out. Don't, you know, don't get too close to so and so because they're blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? don't you know don't get too close to so-and-so because they're blah blah blah blah right so this is the person who and they make oh wow i your experience is just incredible someone i know knows you and they said this and and you start feeling really connected with this person they're flattering you they're love bombing you they're being your support system they're telling you like little secrets about what's going on to help you understand your colleagues.

They are doing exactly that. They're love bombing, right? So when you feel too good around someone, or they're coming on really strong, stop and say, why do I feel so connected with this new person in my life so quickly? It's so hard. Yeah. Like, like, I'm like, I kind of do all of those things, you know, but I'm, I'm definitely not a psychopath. Like, after reading the book, I'm like, I can definitely self diagnose myself as certainly not a psychopath. Thank God. But yeah, you and I met, I felt really good when we met and I uh you and I spoke but I never felt like you were coming on too strong you were like let's do this let's get on to yeah right but I never felt like you were trying to skip phases in our friendship right you know I didn't feel like you all of a sudden wanted to be my best friend. And when we look at romantic relationships, and I know we're here to talk about the workplace today, but I think it's important also, since we're on the topic to talk about this. Imagine in a romantic relationship, there's a really great book called Women Who Love Psychopaths. And they are I can't actually I might have that title wrong. So I might come back to that. Women Yes, it's called Women Who Love Psychopaths is by Sandra Brown. And she explains that what psychopaths do when they're entering a new relationship is they throw out an empathy hook. And by what I mean by that, and what she means by that, more importantly, is they are testing you to see if you're the type of person they can manipulate. And I was this person. And this is what I learned from researching all of this in the workplace. And I was the fixer. I was the mother. I was the person you could go to. And I'd be like, oh, my gosh, that person did that to you. I'm so sorry. Let me help you fix everything. Right. I never would ask you, Aaron, person did that to you. I'm so sorry.

Let me help you fix everything. Right. I never would ask you, Aaron, why did that? Why do you think that person said that to you is, you know, sounds like you might have been blah, blah, blah, right? I was not that person. You weren't the skeptic. The psychopath does not want a skeptic, right? And so I was that nurturer and that, you know, helper, and I thought I could change everybody. And that is why I used to say to my friends, I'm like, I drive men crazy. But it wasn't that at all. I was just psychopaths just loved me because, from what I can tell, just because I was that person, and I was falling for all of those empathy hooks, right? And so we want to be careful that we're asking those questions of people, or even to ourselves in a workplace, let's say, if they're talking about a lot of conflict all the time, and talking about how they're the victim, because psychopaths are always the victim, they're never at fault in their minds. So we have to really start asking ourselves, why are, why is there so much issues with this person? Why do they seem to have an issue with everyone, right? Well, and, you know, especially in the workplace today, when being vulnerable is so valued now, I think more than it has been before. That, you know, we have to buffer ourselves with some kind of armor against, you know, being taken advantage of, right? Yeah, I think it's amazing that you're that kind of person, right? That I think that you, you know, that you're, you're so generous and loving and wanting to protect people and, you know, wanting to, you know, to give yourself.

And it really sucks that there are people out there that take advantage of them. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I was it something like 20% up to 20% of CEOs, or there was a very high percentage that I'm recalling of, of leadership, people in leadership positions positions i don't know if it was 20 i never know how accurate those stats are because how would they actually know who is this i mean based maybe on their behavior but i would even think that dr hair would say it's impossible to give an estimate but what he what he does say and what is widely known is they're attracted if there's a well they're attracted it's like a drinking hole, they're attracted to it, right? So if there's a way, if investment banking is a great way to, white collar crime is huge among psychopaths because they, you know, look at Bernie Madoff. I've never diagnosed him myself, nor could I, nor am I qualified to, but I'm sure there's widely held beliefs that he is a psychopath. Politics attracts psychopaths because now they can control lawyers. And it's still going to always be a very small percentage.

So I don't want to cast any shade on these professions. But these are people that like power and control the military, police. Right. like power and control, the military, police, right? So if we think of those types of areas where they can be seen as important, have power and walk away with a big wad of cash all at the same time, that is what they're attracted to. Yeah, and these are the successful psychopaths that he talks about. Yeah, so these are folks that, you know, are living fairly normal lives um probably only being like the only checks and balances that they have in terms of regulating their behavior is um you know the transparency of situations and you know the i mean the law they probably try to get away with whatever they can really but right yes and you're absolutely right to bring that up as like quote unquote, successful psychopaths, because of course they, there's many of them in the criminal justice system as well that aren't succeeding, but these might be your cousin or even your brother or sister. Often it's uncovered when there's financial issues. So if there's an inheritance, suddenly the psychopath and the person is unmasked, even if they've kept it under wraps a little bit until that time. So you see when people's backs up or up against the wall. I thought it might be helpful to talk about the different types of psychopaths and their behavior in the workplace.

This is based on a book that was co authored by Dr. Hare, called snakes in suits, and another person called named Paul Babiak. So if you're okay with that, I might jump into the different types of psychopaths in the workplace, because what I hope people think is like, oh, my gosh, I know this person. And now they'll know that they kind of have to protect themselves. Because what I like I said, I've included this information in some talks that I give. And I find that people do the normal giggle when I start talking about it. And I talk about some of the characteristics of a psychopath, some of their behaviors and the implications. And all of a sudden, it gets very quiet in the room, and you can hear a pin drop. And after my presentation, people will gingerly come up to me and say, I think I worked with someone like this, or I think this person might be. And I even had a woman call me, I don't even know how she got my phone number, bawling a week after a presentation that she had colleagues that were harassing her, and she felt they fit into this profile as well. So the different types of psychopaths that you'll encounter in the workplace, as described in Snakes in Suits, the con, and they use their voice to manipulate you.

They're really great at storytelling. They mix falsehoods with truth um and they get people to do what they want kind of by tricking them and conning them um and then there's the bully i don't know if you you don't have to share i don't know if you ever think of someone like that comes to your mind when you think of that the bully um i don't have no the con the con yeah for sure i've had folks in my history that that i could have definitely qualified as the con 100 yeah the smooth talker um the bully is kind of a build on the con they start off as a con but when they don't get what they want. They really will escalate and use dominance and they'll, you know, they might yell. And I've always had a huge disdain for yelling in the workplace. There is no reason to yell at a person in the workplace unless you're yelling to them to get out of the way of a flying object, a falling object. A person that is yelling, in my opinion, is a problem person in the workplace. And that is something that needs to be addressed immediately.

And I think that's something that employers can do right away to address any issues. I'm not saying someone who yells is always a psychopath by any means, but that might be your first clue. There's an issue with that employee. clue there's an issue with that employee. The puppet master is the most impressive of the three types. They have all the characteristics of a con and a bully, but they use others to do their dirty work for them. They recruit people, they're often referred to as flying monkeys to send their messages for them. But they're the most prolific of the three types. Prolific in what way? They have all of the characteristics of the other. So they're not just, you know, someone who's a con, they might just have that kind of capability. There's the bully who has to go to yelling, the puppet master may have more mastery over their their behavior than the other two. And I would argue that they would be the most dangerous because they're just highly skilled in manipulating people. Probably, would they be more difficult to identify in some cases as well? Absolutely. And there's so and I write about it in a spark in the dark as well. I write about how people I don't call them psychopaths, because I don't know, there's, there are people who are bullies. And psychopaths are always narcissists.

But narcissists who are far higher percentage of the population are not always, narcissists are not always psychopaths, but they are also very difficult personalities to deal with. So you may not be able to distinguish between the two. I think it would be really hard for any lay person who's not trained to be able to identify them. And I think it's even Dr. Hare talks about falling for psychopaths, cons, he's not immune either. And I say that I do all of these things to protect myself. I am not immune. In fact, I started a friendship with a woman who met with her daughters and, you know, went out and gave them all kinds of career advice. We had dinner together. It was revealed that she was a horrible con artist who had stolen money from refugees and treated them off terribly. There was articles about her in newspapers. And she had all this, she had committed white collar crime. It was awful. And I fell for her charm for sure. That was a long time ago before I got really into this. But it shocked me. Fortunately, I didn't get too close to her because everything was revealed very soon after our kind of friendship began, but it terrified me to think what the potential could have been. Had I not had that not been revealed to me. I feel like I must, I think I must have a very strong sense of self-preservation. feel like I must I think I must have a very strong sense of self-preservation um and I I feel like I've got like a like a like a radar for you know nonsense people yes like people who are like I'm like this doesn't add up you know or whatever but I also like to make sure I give people the benefit of the doubt so you know for me it's like what's that Maya Angelou quote?

When people show you who they are, believe them. Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, yeah, don't I wouldn't give people that many chances if they're doing something or demonstrating some real problematic behavior. That's for sure. That's good. And I wish so many more of us were like that. I don't think things would be as much of a mess. And it's really interesting, because in this book, they talk about the fact that people who are psychopaths in the workplace, they perform very well in terms of they rate very high in communication skills, charisma and visioning, but they rate really low in performance and productivity. Oh, interesting. Yet they still get promoted because they're so charming, right? And they have this bullish behavior that makes them seem like they really care about the business. So I wrote about that a little bit in Spark and why these people get promoted. They're just really good at managing up. And upward. Yes. I learned that actually, I learned that from a few people I, I, you know, that is that is teachable. By the way, I can teach this. I feel upward on your girl. Oh, wow. Well, you know, it's no, that could be a good thing, because you're so good at managing to like down, right? And you're actually taking care of the people who report up into you. Well, I feel like it's, it's a matter of trying being okay with trying new things, you know, but it's a little bit different than what we're talking about. Anyways, that's a bit of a bunny trail. But yeah, the classic failing upward where, you know, and there have been so many executives that I've spoken to that I'm, you know, they can't do anything without an assistant, right? Without a part of me?

Without an assistant. Without an assistant. And you wonder how in the world they ever were able to get to the position they were in. Because they just, they're completely useless without a wonderful executive assistant who does everything for them. Well, one of the things that psychopaths are really good about is overstating their qualifications and outright lying about them. So one of the things, pieces of advice I have for businesses is do background checks on people. This person that, I mean, I haven't, well, I won't go into too much detail, but there is someone I know 100% who does not have the qualifications they claim to have and the degrees they claim to have publicly on LinkedIn. One of the degrees that they say they have doesn't even exist as a degree. And so if you do a background check on someone and find out that they're lying about these things, and I do, I'm not saying that, yes, there are people who have a criminal past that can make excellent employees. So I do not want to. Yes, there are people who have a criminal past that can make excellent employees.

So I do not want to have them excluded here. But if you do a background check on someone and their qualifications turn out to be untruthful, that is a huge red flag. And I don't think you should hire that person because why are they lying? That's what then that is exactly what a psychopath would do. why are they lying that's what and that is exactly what a psychopath would do yes yeah and see this is one of the reasons why i have a difficult time with references because i have a friend who had a previous she was i'm sure her her ex was a psychopath you know um one of my best friends actually and um what he would do when he was trying to get a job is he just have his mom or his sister's brother's second cousin or whatever, be his reference. You would act like he would, it was complete fabrication. So, you know, as an employer, I'm like, you know, I don't I don't even know that I believe in references, to be honest, prove to me what you can do. Right. And then like demonstrate that you have the skills that you you say you have. Maybe that's just a skeptic in me. But I'm just like, let's let's work together for a month or two and see if you can actually do what you say, you know, you can do and then, you know, if you prove it, then you're good. Well, one of the things that really helps with reference checks now is the fact that most people professionals are on LinkedIn. So someone gives you references and, and they're in a corporate role, and none of their references you can find easily on LinkedIn, then that's can be a red flag. But also, if you don't hear consistencies in their references, like they have three different references who are saying maybe positive things, but entirely different things, then make sure that you're noting that because then those might be a clue that those aren't real references as well. Yeah. Okay.

Good advice. I'm sure you have lots of good advice for higher ed. Well, I do have a list of it. And so we can talk about it at the at the end for sure. But the the thing that I the other thing I want to talk about is the prevalence in the political sphere. There is, you know, a lot of that's one that's identified with psychopaths as well. And I kind of fell back in my chair when I read this over the weekend. I'm not sure if it stood out to you, but a psychopath. So psychopaths project their behavior onto others. So psychopaths project their behavior onto others. So if they're talking about other people accusing them of being a thief or something like that, or a cheater that they cheat on their spouse, that might be a good sign that that person is doing those things. But a psychopath believes that whoever, and this is a quote, whoever is weak is also a sucker. And that kind of stuck with me as well, given all the things that I'm hearing going on in politics right now. It just, it really did stick with me and put me on my heels. One of the other quotes that I found really interesting in the book. And this is again, why I think we need to really drive awareness about this topic. He asked the question, are we unknowingly allowing a society to evolve that is the perfect breeding ground and perhaps a quote unquote, killing field for psychopaths? As our newspapers tell us, this question grows more pressing every day. And this book was written in the 1990s. I would love to see a updated like another edition. But Dr. Hare is, you know, he was born in the 1930s. So I'm not sure he's has it on his plans to write a book. He must have some protégés. He does. If anyone's listening to this and is a protégé of Dr. Hare's, it's time for a new edition of this book. Or better yet, just come on the podcast with me and Amy. Yes. I have a lot of questions for you. I have a lot of questions.

But, you know, here's the thing. And I think a good accompaniment book, and maybe it's one we want to talk about another time, is called The Gift of Fear. And that's by Gavin DeBecker. And it's all about trusting your gut. So a big piece of advice that I would give to anyone listening to this podcast is, yes, be aware of the red flags. Like if you're in a job interview, and the person who is meant to be your manager does all the talking in their interview and if you won a game they won the olympics like it's like they always have to one up you and if they're not listening that can be a really good sign you're dealing with someone who's a problem personality okay i'm not going to say a psychopath but a problem personality that's like right pardon me grade three behavior right exactly yeah we all remember from grade three four whatever right yes we're always stuff I did probably the same thing you know but you grow out of that at some point or most people do you do grow out of that for sure um but the thing that Gavin DeBecker talks about in the gift of fear is that our gut is there for a reason to give us warn early warning signs that something might be wrong and it's surprisingly accurate and we should listen to it so if you feel that you might be in a situation in the workplace because it's what is really frightens me okay i'll give you the example of Robert Durst. You know who Robert Durst is? He was the subject of the documentary called The Jinx. He's from a very wealthy property management company or property owners in New York. And his wife went missing. Years and years ago. Was this one of the stories in the book? It wasn't in the book. It's kind of the book was written before this particular situation concluded and i think we really needed the conclusion in order to really um put a label on what happened right but he was not a ted bundy or jeffrey dahmer he wasn't a murderous person but he had people over the course of his life who, who angered him and who got in his way. And he made sure that he took care of that.

So I don't want to instill fear in people, what I want is for them to protect themselves. But we can become the target of a psychopath without recognizing it. If we're their competition in the workplace, they do what I refer to in a spark in the dark is as a reconnaissance mission. When they meet us, they find out all about us or so they ask us a lot of questions. It's the one time they stop talking about themselves to find out, you know, about you and they're really interested. And then you might say to them, Oh, yeah, I have to pick up drop off my kids at this time and pick them up at that time. Now let's fast forward to a time you become a threat to them professionally. Up until this point, they've been flattering you, they've been on side, they've been so supportive. And then all of a sudden, guess when they're booking meetings, when they know that you have to drop off your kids or pick them up, you know, or they're, so they found that information out. And now they're going to be really good at weaponizing that information and using it against you. And so they that's dangerous for your career. And it's also the emotional baggage you carry, especially if you've had a boss who's a psychopath. And what we do naturally, is we're like, I'm going to change my behavior right like we're normal people you think quote unquote never been so happy for adhd in my life all of that listen yeah i mean this it can be a real benefit to ask questions that other people are afraid too afraid to ask or to call out like the emperors, be the person calling out the emperor, right?

So that's a huge, that can be a huge advantage. But for people who are like me, and started, you know, were very naive, I was very naive. They're, they're gonna put themselves in this position a lot. And it's not your fault. I'm not saying it's your fault. But you're in this situation, and you are trapped, and you've been manipulated by this person, and you think it's you, it's not you, it's them. And we have to stop trying to change our behavior, thinking it's going to change their behavior, because they aren't going to change. And if you if you're dealing with a boss or a colleague you you see as a psychopath psychopath one of the best things to do is you know they say like the the thing that a wolf dislikes the most is an empty field right don't give them anything to work with so people people whose spouses may be this type of person and they're leaving them or people whose bosses or colleagues might be this type of people we have this innate uh need or this and I understand it to justify. Well, no, it wasn't like that. It was like this. Well, no, that didn't happen this way. It happened that way. Just stop talking. Don't respond to their emails. Don't don't engage. Pardon me? The gray rock method. I think I've heard like you want to. Yeah, I've never heard of that. Yeah. So I think that's what you do with narcissists is what I've heard. So folks want to actually Google this method. I believe they call it the gray rock method. Yeah. That's I'm going to look that up because I'm really interested in it, but yeah, don't give them anything to work with any more than you already have.

That can be really helpful to you and it can save you a lot of angst because they're never going to see things from your point of view. They don't care to. They are there to cause harm for them. Like, it's like you're trying to solve the fight. They're trying to have the fight. They like the fight. Or they have a goal, you know, and you're just, you know, one stepping stone, you know, towards the goal or you're not. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So did you want me to talk about some of the suggestions between both or is this something else? Yeah, no, I would love for us to like, kind of finish this up, kind of tie this up with a bow. Sure. A little bit about, you know, how can we as people identify and protect ourselves? And I think it's interesting, the idea of organizational transparency as well. Is that something that you ever talk about in relation to this? Well, I, this, that's not something I've talked about in relation to this specifically. I do think that there are ways that organizations, I don't know how being, I think being transparent can help, but it's, it's not going to resolve the problem altogether. Because even if it's a transparent organization, or aiming to be, these people are really good at flying under the radar. I recently presented about promoting praise culture in your organization. And I think one of the positive side effects of having a culture that promotes praise is that people like this aren't going to fit into that culture for very long. And their bad behavior is going to stand out so dramatically from everyone else that they won't last in an organization like that.

So to me, it's less about transparency, and more about having an organization that thrives on the on positivity and recognizing employees. And you don't think that they can adapt easily to that type of organization? I just don't think that they would be able to survive that type of organization. Because in that organization, if you yell at someone, that's going to be totally against the culture that the business is trying to create. That's entirely unacceptable. And that's actually one of the pieces of advice that Dr. Hare gives is that you should set boundaries and then follow through. And if you don't follow, it's like raising kids, right? If you don't set boundaries and follow through, they're going to know that there's cracks in the system and they're going to exploit those because that's what kids do. But that's how you raise, I always say, raise children other people like. we get into the strategies for protecting yourself. The Dr. Hare believes that these people are born this way. And it's not something it's not a rehabilitative problem, in the same way that narcissism is you can't rehabilitate someone. And he's saying that we shouldn't give up on the research for rehabilitation, because it is so important to our society. But I do think it's important for us to recognize, you're not going to fix this problem. And you need to get yourself away from it. And that's one of the pieces of advice. If you think you're in a situation, and I know it, believe me, I love all people know it's not an easy thing to do. But if you're in a situation with someone who you think fits this profile, you need to find a way out of that situation as quickly as possible and keep yourself safe.

And this is why and I think it's important to bring this up. Again, I know it's not about this. If you are leaving a spouse, you believe to be this type of person, you need to protect yourself in the early days. This is where we see people turn. Remember, I talked about Robert Durst, people getting in his way. If you're saying to someone, I'm going to take your kids, I'm going to take your house, I'm going to, that's going to be a trigger for their violence, right? So, and not that you would say that. And even if you don't say that, so that is why women's shelters exist and places where people can be protected. So if you're in a situation where you're leaving what you think could escalate, and don't be naive to the fact that it can escalate happens all the time. I think it's every six days a woman is killed by an intimate or ex intimate partner in Canada. In the US, the numbers are far, far higher. I think it's something like every three days or something. It's crazy how high the numbers are. So protect yourself. That's really important. And I just know that we're listening to this for professional purposes, that there's going to be people who are tuning in that might be like, oh my gosh, I think I'm living with this person. Okay. So Dr. Hare's advice, one of the recommendations he makes is to know yourself. Like know what your weaknesses are, right? Like you and I've just talked about your you have a lot of qualities that make you kind of repel this kind of person, which is amazing.

And I wish I had them my whole life. I unfortunately didn't know myself very well. And as I've learned more about this personality, I shouldn't even call it, it's not a personality type, it's a disorder. I've learned more about it. I've been able to also turn the mirror onto myself and think like, what am I doing that is making me vulnerable to these situations? So be aware of what weaknesses you have that can be exploited, because they are looking for the weaknesses that they can exploit in others like a wild animal kind of thing. Right? Like I said before, take a pause, if it feels too good to be true, if you feel too good in someone's company, that might be an early warning sign. And being aware of that is really important. Because especially I know, again, we're talking at work, but someone in the workplace might be flattering you constantly. And you're like, Oh, my gosh, I just have to go to that person's office. I feel so good when I'm around them. Stop and ask yourself why they use a lot of expression, expressive language. Actually, they use their hands a lot. I don't know if you remember reading that. And I kind of I felt that was a little problematic only because like it reminded me like of he was describing basically an autistic stimming almost right okay that's very good yeah need to look into that more because you're like there's some kind of I don't know if we can just blanket statement that this is a thing with you know especially when there's some kind of i don't know if we can just blanket statement that this is a thing with you know especially when there's so much overlap with autistic stimming like maybe yeah that could be a problem i think what he's saying is it's a blanket thing for that type of person but just because a person is doing it does not make them that type of person i would i would assume not no yeah of course not absolutely not yeah um and then uh but they do things to distract you and even the way they speak makes you feel distracted because they often won't answer questions directly and they'll take you down this rabbit hole of conversation that makes you forget even what the question was that you asked in the first place right um. Yeah. And obviously listening to your gut. So if you're seeing and feeling if you're feeling like something is wrong, something is probably wrong. So delve into that.

Don't walk away from that. Also, if other people are often better than we are at seeing if we are in a situation that is unhealthy. So if you have people and taking a risk and telling you and this is why I never like when someone's manager's manager says, deal with your manager first, if you have a problem, not all problems should be dealt with the direct line manager, because of that direct line managers and the problem, that person's manager needs to know about it and they need to know about it right away. So don't reject people when they're talking about their manager because it's seen as this view of being like, you should have handled it directly. If it's too big a problem, you need the help of someone more senior. Run background checks, as I said, and note any inconsistencies between what they've stated and what you learn about their educate, like about their qualifications.

And then be aware of who the victim is. They are great at making themselves out to be the victim. You might be the victim. But also, I'll give you a real life example. They'll say, people will say if they're getting separated, oh, the kids hate their mom or they hate their dad, right? If they're little kids, what little kids hate their mom or dad? That doesn't exist. So as soon as I hear someone say that to me, I'm like, okay, you're the problem here. I'm finished with this conversation. And then seek professional support. If you've worked with someone who has this type, is this type of person, you may be suffering for a very long time, especially if you worked with them for a long time so please please take care of yourself because um the this could affect your entire career if you're not handling because you might have lost so much self-confidence uh that you really need to go and get the help that you need to kind of recover from that. And hopefully you're in a workplace where maybe you have an EAP, maybe that can get you started, or you have really good benefits. But that's a really good way to handle it.

The last thing that I did want to add, because I did two last points, because I really think they're important for our awareness and our safety. The psychopath is very good at making their victim look like the crazy one. So they'll be very calm as a cucumber, you're coming in, and you'll be having a meeting with someone. And they'll, they'll try to agitate you, they're good at provoking you behind the scenes. And then you're like, I can't believe they're saying that because and they'll be like, look how great like he's nuts, right? And they'll be like, look how great, like he's nuts, right? And they're cool and calm. And so you seem like, and then you start to even question yourself. This happens in therapy a lot with people who are living in a relationship with these types of people. The last point I want to make is single travelers are often a target. And I think that's very relevant to people who are traveling alone for business. relevant to people who are traveling alone for business. Be aware that you might open yourself up to strangers in that situation. Like if you're at the bar, if you're a hotel or something like that, be very aware of who you're talking to, of your surroundings.

Don't give someone more information than they need about you. Pretend that you're traveling with someone else when you're talking to them, even if you feel really great in their company, because that could be the first warning sign. So, yeah. And don't waste your sympathy on them. Do not spend a moment wasting time being sympathetic and as quickly as you can disengage with someone who you think is like this, if you can. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Amy, I'm really happy that you managed to get away from the situation that you told us about before. And I think that's amazingly courageous of you. And that especially now that you're, you know, you're educating other people on that as well.

Yeah, I just I see the damage that it causes on and this is like smaller scale in the workplace, bigger, bigger in, in the news, right? You're hearing all about all of these situations. There's a certain type of person that is causing all of these problems. And, and I do believe that the more we can drive awareness, and I wish, I don't know why people still laugh when I talk about psychopaths. I don't know why. I think people feel like this isn't as common. And I know that it's not like, it's not, you know, what am I trying to say? It is, it's a lot more common than we think it is. Exactly. And it's like, they say, oh my gosh, something horrible will happen to a family. And they're like, I never saw this coming. And all the like, they say, oh my gosh, something horrible will happen to a family. I never saw this coming. And all the warning signs were there. And that's what's so painful about some of these situations is all the warning signs are there. We just have this vision of a person who I feel like the media has created for us and that we believe they might look monstrous or give us signals they don't they're amazing they're so opposite to what we think that they are well i think we can come back to that maya anjali quote you know and just yeah look at people and see what they're demonstrating in the workplace and like, you know, use data and use, you know, use like leverage other people's opinions, you know, and kind of like, I guess kind of band together to make sure that we protect each other as well.

Yeah, and I do love that quote and how you completed it. Because you often hear when people show you who they are, believe them. But you said, and it is accurate, believe them the first time. Don't give them another chance. I think that's the actual quote, though, right? Yes, that's what I mean, is we often just cut it off before when people tell you who they are, believe them and it stops. But believe them and it stops. But believe them the first time. The first time part is is very important. Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much. Oh, thank you so much for having me. And you can see probably that I'm incredibly passionate about this topic.

So it's been really nice to have the opportunity to talk about it in this much detail. I don't want to come across as though I'm an expert. I'm not. I rely on the experts for this information, but it's certainly something that I've researched a lot and thought about deeply. Absolutely. And it comes across and I can tell. Oh, we need to go and like do a Pilates class or have a glass of wine or something after this I was like please tell me she does not cancel have to cancel our recording today because I cannot carry this I have to I have to kind of not think about this for a little while because I did a lot of prep for our conversation a lot of emotional labor it is it is yes I while because I did a lot of prep for our conversation.

A lot of emotional labor. It is. It is. Yes. I'm glad I did it. And I hope that everyone just puts in that investment for themselves. Just a little bit. Listen to this podcast all the way through. Read these books. They will really help you and they will actually make your life better. It's not going to make it more scary. It's going to make it better. And when Gavin DeBecker talks about the gift of fear he truly is giving you a gift it will not make you more scared it will actually make you feel more empowered that you can handle anything that comes at you

thanks Amy

thank you

don't forget to stay weird stay wonderful and don't stay out of trouble!

What works for other might not work for you. What if your key to success was to not have a niche? What if tring to focus on one thing was actually hindering your path success?

Founder and CEO of 8Ball Clarity, the host of the podcast The Generalist Advantage, former executive with nearly two decades in a global tech company and holds a masters in Engineering, Julie Lavergne is the quintessential Generalist who challenges the trend and notion of focusing on one niche.

Stay tuned for a direct and thought-provoking discussion on the beauty of the generalist and how it might be your key to success ;)

Stay in Touch with Julie:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/julie-lavergne/

https://8ballclarity.com/

https://open.spotify.com/show/1tgDKNCnTxrLiXCe0n9u8b

Script:

Choosing a nonlinear path is unheard of.

Every time I reinvent myself, I have to reinvent my brand.

I'm going to go and disrupt myself and prove that I can do this.

How do we help generalists understand their value and help them explain their value?

The common theme was always like, oh, what about this piece? Okay, go do this piece. And then what about this other piece? Go there.

Having a generalist must be, it must feel like having like a cross-functional team in one person.

We have so many interests. We want to do good in so many areas and trying to pick which one that with our limited resources.

Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose. And of course, I am your host, Erin Patchell, and I'm here with the lovely, I am your host, Erin Patchell, and I'm here with the lovely, amazing Julie Laverne. And Julie is the founder and CEO of 8 Ball Clarity, the host of the podcast, The Generalist Advantage, and she loves to minimize thinking waste and help organizations, teams, and leaders to make better and faster decisions. You are in the right place, Julie Laverne, my friend.

Oh, thank you. What a lovely intro and lovely podcast host. So thank you. Thank you. So question of the day for those of you who do not know Julie, which is maybe one or two of you, because you're very popular, especially in Ottawa. I want to get to know you a little bit. So tell me about yourself. And also tell me about like, what makes you a weirdo?

Oh, that's interesting. I just, I had a talk just recently. And all I did was like, why am I being asked to talk? And I realized is because I just make my own path. And some people could resonate with that. But I've often asked why fought the system? Why are we doing it this way? And I kind of like, why do those rules exist there? Why are are we thinking this way and so maybe that's a little bit of what makes me um good to have but also really annoying to have perhaps in the meeting room of you know going back of asking why um and so if you're asking a little bit of my journey uh it's I I started as an engineer uh because I couldn't fathom, I wanted to help people. Like this difference between science and engineering was like, no, no, I really want to build things that helps people. So that started with engineering.

And then I made my way having a lot of different roles and made my way to HR executive and now founder. And that's probably what made me a generalist, but I'm sure we'll get into that. Oh, we'll definitely get into that. So yeah, today we're going to be talking all about what it's like to be a generalist, the journey to being a generalist, and how maybe being a generalist could solve some of these problems that we have in the world today. And I know that is of deep interest to a lot of the people who listen to this podcast and we're all very well aware um of some of the ways you know that our world is you know sometimes daily feels like it's imploding so true yeah yeah and from the macro to the micro you you know? Yep. Yeah. So, yes. So you went from engineer to HR executive and now founder. Julie, wait, before we go any further, though, like how the heck did we meet? Like, I literally can't remember.

I just feel like we absorbed each other into each other's lives somehow. I feel too. How did this happen? I don't know. I want to credit the LinkedIn world. How did this happen? I don't know. I want to credit the LinkedIn world. I find, you know, sometimes like like-minded, you know, people kind of find each other on there somehow. And that's, that's how, that's what I'm thinking. But obviously we have lots of friends in common. We end up in the same circle sometimes. Yeah.

I started talking and go, let's do more of that together. I feel like I need to go back in time and figure out how this happened because I just enjoy you so much. And I really resonate with everything that you say, especially when it comes to like being rebellious and questioning. And I think that's such a good trait in people. Like, I don't think that's something that's annoying or should be bad or should be annoying at least.

You know know I think it's so good to be able to question things and find the holes and provide more context because the more context we have the better we can make decisions and I know you're going to probably tell us a little bit about that too but anyways I just had to I was just thinking like how the heck did I did we meet and I have no idea well can I just say thank you for saying that, like, just going back to like, thank you for saying that's okay to be that way. Because I think a lot of generalists would feel that it wasn't, it's not always embraced. And I could say, I probably spent 10 years of my career being the annoying person of going like, why are you bringing this up to then shifting and who I reported to, to then being called an excellent gap filler. Right. And that was praised, right? It was like, thank you. Thank you for finding those gaps and bringing those to the surface.

Cause we need to talk about them and we need to bridge them. So it's interesting that thank you for saying that it's a good thing, but cause I don't think everybody has always been embraced that way. No, actually they're not. I talked to like literally in my last job, I pretty much talked to people every single day who were looking for coaching, but in the quest to do better and for their professional development often had really emotional stories that they were telling me about, like how they weren't appreciated how you know there are the things that they noticed in the workplace were dismissed or denied or unappreciated and they were actually a lot of the time afraid they had to figure out like how do I say this the right way so that I'm not like fired or whatever you know and that just sucks so maybe we can talk about that too. Yeah, I was gonna, I was gonna keep going, because that's exactly how a lot of generalists feel, because the generalist work is kind of invisible.

Like, you don't see the work. It's not like this, like, we're not the product developer, you know, we're not the software coder or anything that comes to something tangible. We're more like this um somebody called it man behind the curtain like providing linkages across things and therefore it's not visible work therefore it's often not appreciated and therefore a little bit the conversation is maybe not the tough conversation of how to bring something up but the tough conversation of i am providing value i I am contributing and, you know, there's, there's, it's, it is valuable. Can you not see that? That comes up a lot. I think this, this actual conversation could go in a totally different direction than what I originally thought. I thought we were like, we're going to go down this one path. And now I'm like, I'm like, how do we help generalists understand their value and help them explain their value? Right.

Well, welcome to my purpose. Oh my gosh. Okay. Let's start with your story though. You went from, you were an engineer. Once upon a time, you were a child with all the hopes and dreams and then you were an engineer and then you were an HR executive and then you now you're obviously a founder and a coach and you know you're doing all the things bringing light to the world tell me about that journey and what that felt like yeah so I started so started, so started in the workplace, had, had the role as I, you know, was led to, sorry, had to do. And then what brought me is back to that questioning. So those people that are like, why is it done this way? Or why are we, why are we, what's that gap over there? Or I'm not understanding, you know think about the inputs and outputs right like I have a role and all these things are coming to me from inputs from the organization and I'm outputting and maybe I you know where is that going and so kind of those curiosity pieces led me to go but what about here and so we call like coloring outside your job description like I would do that all the time my, boss loved and hated it at the same time because it causes issues, but also love because you're doing kind of more and picking up the pieces. So that's kind of like the, operations, to finance, to systems development, to quality, to organizational development.

So it was just always about, if you think about the holistic picture and this whole like a wheel of a spoke, I always wanted to kind of try to color each, each spoke to really understand how all of it works. Right. So that's kind of like the piece that drove me was curiosity. But then how a lot of people go, how did you make the leap from a technical operational to let's say in HR, right? Sometimes that's very vastly different. And it was critical thinking. So I took the course and then I sat and then did the facilitation course. Then I did the teaching course. And then I started teaching the organization critical thinking.

And then I realized how much I love seeing people make it doesn't matter if you're in sales or software, health and safety, whatever topic, like the ability to make a better decision or the ability to like, take a really complex situation, kind of break it down and find an action plan, right? Like, I just love seeing those aha moments. And so I knew that was something I wanted to do more of. And that was the pivot. I talked with the CEO and the pivot was, Hey, can you bring this as a kind of organizational competency and really like lift the organization? And I said, challenge accepted. And that's how I kind of went into the HR kind of people space. Yeah. Okay. So it started with sort of competency development, skills development, building, helping people build context and then led you. So it was learning and development kind of like that learning and development HR bubble. And then how far, how deep into the HR world did you end up going?

Well, the part so he he the ceo would give me a nugget and what he thought would take two three years i would have like chewed up in six eight months wow he's like oh okay feed next nugget so then i got recruiting and then same same thing and i think that's where even though i had huge accomplishment accomplishments as an engineer or you know operationals person I think he had made the transferable link of how I operate is not just because a technical perspective it's more from that thinking approach perspective and using the experts around me right so I wasn't an expert in these things but pair me up with the expert man I kind of developed the process or built whatever needed to be built so then he just like kept piling it on and then said okay you're you're on the executive team now as the kind of organizational development talent person so and became quite close with him and advisor and then he then before I left was getting into strategy because he's like, oh, okay, the way you think, right? And so what was interesting is that each milestone I hit, there was always a surprise that I could hit it probably for both of ourselves really. But yeah.

Did you have any points where it was like you like kind of like growing pains through that at all? Like what was that like? kind of like growing pains through that at all like what was that like yeah I mean we talk about imposter syndrome for sure when I transferred to let's say the HR space I definitely have faced a lot of adversity of like you like but you have no training in this field right like like back to those classic questions like how you, what do you know in this space? And I face a lot of adversity, especially when I start talking with somebody, let's say a manager or whatever. And they'd be like, no, no, well, I've been managing people in this for a very long time. So let me kind of educate you or let me tell you, which I appreciated. But there's also this perspective of you've been doing it naturally for many years, right? Leadership sometimes was just from a natural place. Whereas what generalists often do is the minute they get their hands on a topic and they deep dive, right? Like multiple books, multiple videos, training, like whatever. It's like there's a deep dive into the topic really quickly. So then you get into the best practice and systems and understanding it that you could kind of apply. get into the best practice and systems and understanding it that you could kind of apply. So that was difficult because I didn't have the cred, right, to do the job.

And I just needed to show them, show value, prove myself, really serving them and showing that their life is easier working with me and that they kept coming for more. Yeah. Yeah. Once you can demonstrate it for sure, but it's, it's interesting that people don't realize how much, um, that third party outsider perspective, how valuable that can be, you know, uh, especially when you're trying to innovate, cause it's like, you aren't going to come in and do things the way that they've always been done before. Um, you're going to bring best practices in from other areas in order and apply them in this context. And then obviously integrating like the best practices probably that were known into a better system. And so I just think that's really cool. Yeah. And I think it's like marrying up multiple systems. Like I was on the operational side, like I knew what had to the work that you need to do to deliver. So I knew not to come and put in like a very, maybe labor intensive or whatever process. Like I need, I wanted to marry it up with their day-to-day to make it as efficient as possible.

And so it's kind of appreciating that, like, we need to do this piece and you're doing this other piece. How do we best do that together? And that appreciation for sure. Oh, I was just thinking like having a generalist must be it must feel like having like a cross-functional team in one person all your multiple personalities I was gonna say the worst part is when you talk to yourself about like what about this way but there's this going on and you literally could do that yeah that's amazing and then at what point did you decide like, and I mean, if it's too personal, then don't don't you don't need to tell us why you decided to start your, your business. But I'd love to hear what that journey was like. What was that moment for you that were like, I'm gonna do this on my own now? Yeah, there's definitely multiple versions of that story. I will say that without sounding arrogant, it was, I felt like I'd outgrown it. Like I felt like I needed to do more. And I knew that the system that worked, which was, you know, needed to work for the business that they are, was limiting me. And after I had delivered some major things, I said, Okay, do I want to go around this block again? And I wasn't feeling it. And so, funny enough, I actually when I started feeling that way, I was researching, like, okay, let's go do this job in a different industry. And I couldn't get a bite. So the job I had been doing in a global tech company, when I tried to go smaller company, midsize, HR, tech, they said, oh, no, sorry, you don't have the degree. You don't have this.

You don't have this you don't have that and i was like oh it's my engineering degree isn't useless like this is where i was starting like butting up against this kind of checkbox view of things and and i said white right well i'm gonna go and disrupt myself yeah and prove that i can do this And so that's where led me to this journey. Oh, dude, that resonates with me so much. I am like totally unemployable. Despite the fact that I've done so much of like, nobody's nobody wants this because I don't fit in neatly inside a box. Exactly. And that's that is something that's one of my missions is disrupt that org structure, hiring checkbox. Like we know there's a lot of value, like, oh my God, like who wouldn't want to have Erin Patchell on their team? They'd be crazy.

But because again, there's this institutional structure that said, well, where would Erin fit that is not disruptive? She doesn't fit and she might be disruptive of all her knowledge and all like, she'll then let's just not do it and I think that is a big mistake oh you can guarantee that both of us would probably be a little disruptive that's for sure but it's it works extremely well as a consultant actually um to go in gently you know kind of not shake things up too much because you can't really as a consultant or at least you shouldn't um but you know gently nudge you know nudge the nudge nudge and then and then leave you know before things get too hot leave everyone in a good position yeah yeah i'll uh i never looked at it that way but yeah i guess that's what's what I, yeah, definitely trying to do. Tell you a little bit story. When I started on talking about this topic, somebody reached out from the, he didn't say the organization he was from. I'm assuming like the Nortel days.

Cause he says, Oh, like back, way back when we do product innovation and you know, my tech, big tech company, we realized that there was like a group of misfits that kind of like, he didn't say the word misfit, but he says they like would innovate faster. Their product would go, he goes like, and then we actually hired a consultant to understand why that group was faster than the others. And that's what he said is like, they were, they had more of this generalist mindset and thinking, and it was 10% of it. He was, but politics would drag them down they were disruptive so they were they were put the corner because again they would challenge status quo and why are we doing it this way and so yeah so there's definitely an aspect of disruptive uh to what we do i can definitely vouch for that you know the last team at career joy um that you know we were developing awesome we just did such awesome work and we were so good at like getting shit done and I think most of the team were for sure generalists and like a little bit you know just definitely outside the box thinkers in different ways and then on the train to help project now it's the same it's like four of us are totally generalists like way way out like totally rebellious um and then the one person who is not is a total specialist is my husband who's our software engineer and literally he'd be happy if he was coding 15 hours a day and that's just fine yep yep we need those definitely need those exactly um but yeah yeah i think great things can.

Do you think you'll have your own crazy little team of generalists someday, Julie? Well, it's interesting as I try to embark on this topic. I, to be honest with you, I struggle a little bit of like what it could be like, is this, is this, am I just voicing something, but like, am I creating something out of it? Like what's the output? And I talked to a lot of others. I said, what are we defining as success? Right? Like, we could talk about it, but what's the end goal? Where do we know that we've reached something? And so that's still in work. I have definitely a few ideas, but the creation of more generalists or those embracing that they are a generalist, adopting generalists like there's definitely a theme there whether they all work for me or not to be determined yeah yeah I think that you could do a little bit of what we like to call world domination for good you know I think you could do some good there for sure thank you I'll uh that's my project for the summer is help sketch that out a little bit more where to put my energy well you know where to come if you need any help with that because that's my favorite thing in the entire world yes thank you so I know sometimes going through these identity transformations is difficult like how or some for some people or some people like it's it's just as easy as putting it on like a new like a new pair of like a new shirt or something you know um how did it feel to go through this these this transformation process for you uh bumpy okay like bumpy because you're going against the grind a little bit, right? Like you're causing friction with others.

Um, I'll give you an example. I finished engineering, I'm working as an engineer and I decided to go teach English in Korea. Right. Okay. Right. And so when I quit, my boss at the time said, you'll never work as an engineer again. Right? So I'm 21. Right? Making a choice and you have a person of authority, kind of say, I'll never work in what I finished five years of hard work to do again, right? Like, right. But but again it's just because for them this choosing a non-linear path is unheard of yeah and so every time you go through this process you're always less so now but earlier on definitely met with a lot of that uh like who are you to be this what this you'll never be this person and you just have to kind of keep coming back to your own identity, who you are, trust yourself, trust in your abilities to figure it out. Even when you dive into an area that you're complete, you feel like imposter, right?

I never claimed to be an expert in anything, right? So it makes it really tough when you're in a room full of experts and going, well, why are you here? so you just have to kind of trust that the way you think is a bit different and that's okay so this constant re-identifying yourself re-identifying who you are because then you're the the language you're using is different right like today i'm engineering your language another day your hr language but also um re-identifying yourself and reasserting yourself that like you are offering something in the way you think has value. And that's why you're here today, right? In that project or team or whatever it is. It's true that like branding is so important because people don't like when I started Positivist Group, people are like, I just don't get it. Like, what are you doing?

And I'm like, I'm solving people problems solving people problems you know they're like what does that mean like oh my god here's what yeah you don't have people problems like we've got no people problems but that's what we kind of generalists kind of end up being experts in is like the problem solving yes yes like learning and problem solving um because and then and then I think sometimes, at least I feel like this is starting to become a sweet spot for me, is every time I reinvent myself, I have to reinvent my brand. And so marketing and communication is starting to become really important on how I articulate like, what am I doing now? Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. And you know what, you could definitely help provide some tips on that because that's the one thing that comes up again and again with generalists is again, they have all these pieces of a career and skills and competency, but they seem so different. And so they have to bring a through line to it. They have to bring a little bit of that marketing spin. Like they got to tie the dots for the other person. And it's really hard to do it yourself. And it's a little bit of that marketing feel to it, as you said, in communication.

So that's definitely where I see a lot struggle. And there's some resources out there, especially the one question everybody hates is if you go to an event and goes what do you do right I don't even know what I tell people anymore same I like I honestly now I feel that's a really good question I'm still trying to figure that out like I'm just kind of joking with it or I give a different answer each time like I just play with it now yeah I'm the same. Depends on what I think they would be more perceptive to. Perceptive, is that the right word? Receptive, more receptive to. Or sometimes I'll just say I'm an entrepreneur. And then they're like, okay. Okay, yeah. And if they're curious, they'll say, of what? Tell me more. If not, then okay. I know we're talking, but when did you identify as a journalist? Like when, like you embrace that, which we love. Some people are still on that journey. Yeah. I mean, I didn't have a choice, but to embrace it. Cause I don't think that I, I couldn't be fit in box. Like I didn't have a professional job until I was 30. Right. So like I was freelance and I was doing home daycare and you know freelance marketing and communications and fundraising and home daycare and stuff throughout my 20s when my kids were young um because I had three kids by the time of 25 right um so I didn't really know I knew I was good at a lot of things but I didn't really know what to do until or how to frame that or like, I think it was about 30, 31 by the even before I'd heard the word generalist. And I was like, OK, interestingly, on a lot of the tests that I do, like there's a lot of psychometric testing tools on some of them.

I actually identify as I, I test as a specialist. It's cause I like details. So they think if you like details, you must be a specialist. Not true. Actually. I like all the things. Thank you very much. Um, um, so, but I think that I've been a generalist my whole life and I don't think I had any choice, to um but to sort of be that way yeah I think so you know what now that you're telling now you never been thinking about this I have a little I have obviously the ADHD and I'm that's a theme that's a theme yes um but when I was a kid I didn't really talk till I was about outside the house outside of my safe spaces till I was like 11, 12 years old. Um, and that's a story that I've told on the podcast a few times before. But, uh, I, all I did when I was a child was like, I drew horses. I would draw horses like all day, every day. It was psychotic. Almost. It was like really fix hyper fixated. It was like ridiculous. So all I would do is like draw horses. And then I was like, I'm going to be a veterinarian. I started volunteering a veterinary clinic.

I started horseback riding my parents. We didn't grow up with a lot of money, but they finally got a little bit of money together. So I could start horseback riding lessons when I was around 11. And then within like six months I had to quit because my, I just all of a sudden developed these insane allergies. So I had to quit all of that. I had to quit the veterinary clinic. I had to quit because I just all of a sudden developed these insane allergies. So I had to quit all of that. I had to quit the veterinary clinic. I had to quit horseback riding. And I became very depressed for a little while. And then I started my clown business when I was 12. So that kind of brought me out of it a bit, gave me something to do. So maybe I would have been a more of a specialist. Maybe I would have focused had it not been for that like dramatic life transition that changed that was thrust upon me I just don't know what do you think you're the expert here I I don't claim to be an expert of anything I am claiming of uh yes researching and talking to people and trying to draw this data that is definitely a question that comes up quite a bit of if I had better career guidance would I have been a you know would I figured it out earlier if I yeah didn't have these events would I have been without any proof I think it's more of a mindset it's a little bit on the ADHD like I think that's who you are fundamentally and even if you had career guidance and didn't have, you might have been, you know, one races as a, you know, horse racing, and then you would have pivoted because you've done it and you've, you know, it's fun and you'll move to something else. So, but that's just Julie version.

I have no proof or data to say that's, that's my opinion. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, certainly, you know, my life would demonstrate that that's probably true. Yeah. Yeah. Cause everything else that maybe you didn't have a major event, you just chose to keep going into something else. Cause there's not enough time for all the things that we want to explore, which is one of the challenges, right? Like we're, we have so many interests. We want to do good in so many areas and trying to pick which one that with our limited resources. This is the one thing that I always think about is like, I wish I could have, I wish I could live multiple lives to do all of the things that I wish I would, that I want to do, right? Yeah. If there was one other thing, if there's like's like you know one life that you could pick for yourself that's like totally different from what you're doing now I'm curious if you have something in mind oh god no you're like oh I wish I could do that no and you know a little bit about me is something I've learned over time is I never had those crazy big I wish dreams. And so, I mean, it's good in one way that I'm happy in my life. Like, you know, I feel, you know, I've traveled to over 40 countries. I've done the backpacking. I've, you know, been the exec, I, I, I, you know, I have financial, I have friends.

Like, so in some ways I don't have these other big, crazy, like, Oh, if only I wish probably the one right now is maybe yes, right now is like going to learn Spanish in another country and living there. Um, but that's like the retirement plan. Sure. You can still do that. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. totally yeah yeah yeah that's very cool um how do you create how do we create more generalists i'm gonna say we because i would like to help you um well there's there's there's a few options i'm thinking about one is though how do you identify them right like those that are sometimes self-identified great some are still on I I talked to somebody I said oh like she had done so many different things in an organization like oh you're a generalist and right away she said no no I'm not I've actually done some important things and so there's a there there's a, there's, there's a stigma right now. And some people say it's changing, speaking to brand and marketing and reinventing this brand. Some people say generalist has a stigma that has to be removed, but there's a lot of other kind of movements that's calling it something different, but I'm like, it doesn't matter what you call it. It's still the same thing.

So it's kind of identifying that, that there is value. So I think it's one communicating that there is value there and not just shying away from it um and then i'm curious and that's something i've been researching i my upcoming on my podcast is gen z's will generalists exist with gen z like my assumption is they're naturally exposed to many many different things like way more than when i was younger um but they still don't identify generalists. I've talked to a career advisor for university there. There's still a thing about picking that one career, right? And so they're what some of them are trying to play the game and go, well, we we took a major that was still broad as a topic, right? And so they're trying to pursue interest, but it's really interesting. It's, it's actually the high school problem having, I have three high school children.

So I'm like, this is a big problem in the high schools right now is they are pushing them to stream them into university and to, you know, ideally, you know, the most narrow course they can find. Cause usually that comes with, you know, a guaranteed thing or whatever, if you can hack it. Right. But the problem is universities are actually adapting faster than, than high schools right now. They're really moving to, if you ask anyone in university, moving more to micro credentials, right. That build into larger degrees. If you look at like, you don't just see a lawyer anymore. It's like a lawyer who specializes in this narrow niche that is like overlapping with this other thing. See like in short, like people who are like, you know, lawyers who are like also like realtors and like dabble in insurance or whatever, you know, like you have, and that focus only on this type of corporation, you know, like you, people are niching down so much that they have to become generalists in a way.

And they're doing that because they are following their curiosity, I think. But it's like, but like you see the kids, like the teenagers are completely unaware that this is even an option. Yeah, yeah. Crazy. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've heard that. so when I spoke to a career advisor specialist she said it's such a noxious moron right she calls herself a generalist but the career advisor specialist but we each have a field right um she was saying the parents have started embracing being generalists and understanding the careers will change etc as you are talking but sometimes it's more of the kids and the environment that they're in.

They haven't embraced it, which I think is just really fascinating. Where in the past would have been the parents going, you have to be a lawyer, go do this. So yes, we have work to do in multiple fronts. Yeah. Yeah. The career, the, the, the, I don't know if they, what do they call guidance counselors in high schools? I don't know what their KPIs are. I think that they have KPI. I do believe they have them because of the amount of pressure they put on kids. Like my, my son who had been through cancer, you know, and he deserved a gap year. Uh, and we had planned for him to have a gap year, came home a couple of falls ago before he had graduated and was like in panic mode because he hadn't applied to anything.

And I was like, hold on, this is the plan. Yeah. We planned for this. You deserve a year off. You wanted a year off. What's going on? He's, and he described to me the kind of pressure that they were getting from their guidance counselors. And it's just, please stop. Please stop. Doesn't it make you angry angry it actually does make me angry yeah especially i mean on the generalist front on life experience front on you are better human if you take some time sometimes and especially it's interesting traveling um it's so normalized in uk uk is one of the countries i know that gap year is very much embraced so why why not here yeah no and he did end up taking a gap year but believe me like getting him from getting him back to you know to like yeah this is okay you don't have to follow the you know the crowd like this is right um getting him to feel okay about that again was a struggle so anyways it's it's thank you thank you for doing obviously it's your son to do that but yeah thank you you know i just don't get it anyways we that's one thing i think universities actually have a better handle on this than than the high schools and i do wonder if it's because they're being rewarded somehow you know i'm curious about that.

Any high school guidance counselors out there? Let me know if you don't like me anymore, but that's okay. Well, they could come on the podcast and talk about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Come talk about it. Or maybe on your podcast. Oh, yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. The generalist's advantage. So tell me what you've got planned for the podcast. Well, again, it's what happened is when I posted about being a generalist, I know a couple years ago, like I hit a nerve, like I, you know, I'm on a good day. I have 20 likes on LinkedIn, right?

Like, oh, yeah, that was a good day. So when I was like 150, 200, respond, like likes and responses and personal messages, I was like, oh respond like likes and responses and personal messages I was like oh oh oh I hit something so then I wanted to connect with them because again there is a bit of a lonely feeling like other people think like this as well like really resonated with the book range etc um so I had all these amazing conversations and somebody said why did you press record right like and I went oh right okay you know like I should like because they were really great on with like you know careers and like recruiters and just like all these different people with some with ADHD and some in the military from across the world and I was like these are really and they all felt lonely and so it was like about the sharing and so I finally got there of you know getting all of the pieces together to talk about again having these conversations with various people that agree or may disagree with it or don't identify with it and you know I'd love the specialist perspective of working with a generalist right like it must be really hard for them to like follow us or kind of connect with us sometimes and so uh yeah so that's what the the purpose is is talk like exploring it in all these different avenues finding some common themes which i already kind of talked about like a lot some of them definitely on the adhd spectrum and um yeah seeing what comes out of it after multiple conversations seeing what because we need more data multiple conversations, seeing what, because we need more data. We need more research. We all feel a certain way and I'm trying to, you know, engineer it with data and say, okay, after so many conversations, this is what it looks like.

Yeah. Well, I'm a big fan of what you're doing. So you let me know how I can, you know, how we can share this message further. I think it's important i actually think it's even more important like we chatted like very briefly at the beginning of the podcast about how many problems we have in the world right now yes um and a lot of it i think is the result of just silos and bad communication and miscommunication and discommunication or disinformation. Yeah. And that can be prevented by just more context.

A hundred percent. And also like if they were going to put together a quote unquote tiger team to try to solve some of these problems and they go, well, we need one person from here and a person from here and a person from here, who are we saying, okay, bring in the generalist. And they're going to go, well, what role do they fit?

Just, just there'll be the glue of that team that will accelerate your innovation problem solving. Just trust that. Yeah, totally. Yes. Yeah. That should be a role. Like we should write a job description. Yeah. And that was one of the metrics. Like if somebody puts out a job description that is a version of looking for the generalist, then that's, that's a win. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really cool idea. I love that. Okay. So there's different metrics along the way that we could celebrate together. Yeah, for sure. Thank you for coming on the show.

Thank you so much for having me. I feel like we could talk about this for, there's so it's such a juicy topic. Like there's so many layers here I know if I could do this full time I would but well at least we've got your podcast so we can listen to that and that's on all your usual podcast platforms apple podcast spotify for now yes perfect okay well I will definitely link to that in the show notes and other ways that you can get Julie. Is there anything you'd like to say? Just like final words? No, thank you. I love connecting with people. I was open for it.

So please do. And again, thank you for all that you do.

Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble!

In this world there are leaders, strategists, implementers, shephards, heroes...

And let's not forget, Kathleen Johnson!

CEO of Kreativ Culture Strategies where she provides Diversity Equity Inclusion, and Anti-Racism training to organizations across Canada. She is an innovative leader who partners with her clients to deliver heart-centred diversity training and strategy that incorporates creativity to arrive at practical solutions.

With a background in Film and TV as a makeup artist and DEI advisor for films and scripts, a background in literature, writing poerty and short stories, and being a senior Consultant of Diversity Equity and Inclusion with the Provincial Health Services Authority in BC, Kathleen Johnson is a powerful force who has the knowledge, the education and the skills to talk to us about DEI and the creative culture in corporate.

Tune in, learn something new and don't stay out of trouble!

Stay in Touch with Kathleen

https://ca.linkedin.com/in/kmjdiversity?trk=public_post_feed-actor-name

https://www.instagram.com/the_kreactivator/

https://www.youtube.com/@thekreactivators/videos

For more info on Kathleen and her work: https://www.kreativculturestrategies.com/

Scripts:

There's a long documented history of human rights issues.

The weirdos in the workplace are usually the most, some of the most open-minded, you know, willing to accept feedback sort of people.

There's a lot of ways where employers have realized, oh, this is actually, this is actually a benefit.

I can't fix what I don't know.

You will be supported. You'll be understood. I think corporate culture has a long way to go in that regard.

Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, a podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work. And I'm really excited to have Kathleen Johnson with me here today. Hello, Kathleen. Hello. Thank you for being on the podcast. This is awesome. I'm really excited about that. Thank you. Thank you so much. being on the podcast. This is awesome. Really excited.

Thank you.

Thank you so much. So I'll tell you a little bit about Kathleen. Kathleen is the CEO of Creative Culture Strategies, and she provides diversity, equity, inclusion, and anti-racism training to organizations across Canada. Kathleen partners with her clients to deliver heart-centered diversity training and strategy that incorporates creativity to arrive at practical solutions. And for those of you who are watching us on YouTube or, you know, Facebook or LinkedIn or whatever, and we can, you can see our background, you can see it clearly spelled there, but of course we will have it in the show notes as well. Awesome. Welcome to the show, Kathleen.

Thank you so much. I'm really happy to be here. And we've had these discussions before so it just feels like we're having a carrying our discussion onto YouTube.

Exactly we're finally just pressing record sometimes I wish we could just like press record on our conversations every now and then I'm like oh that would have been perfect on the podcast. Yeah I'm just getting into podcasting as well. And it's like, you get that podcast brain where you're like, I want to, I want to capture this. Yeah. Like that was such a good video clip. Dang. How can I remember this? For folks who haven't met Kathleen before, Kathleen is also a very proud humanist as am I. And we actually met, well, kind of because I sort of like stalked her slash introduced myself after listening to you speak Kathleen after you were doing a workshop with Humanist Canada and I thought you were just brilliant and it was about the topic of diversity equity and inclusion and yeah so are you still involved at all with Humanist Canada?

I actually didn't know that's where you first saw me actually so that's cool I'm not currently involved just because of capacity so I follow I amplify but I am not actively involved at the moment. Yeah. So just, yeah. And then like some light stalking afterwards on my part. And now, you know, maybe a little friendship that's bloomed. So that's very nice. Yeah, absolutely. I am still in, I am sort of involved with BC Humanists. I'm taking part in a book compilation that they are writing. And so I don't know when that's going to be coming out it's supposed to be earlier this year and now it's kind of delayed delayed because we're they're looking for the researchers with BC Humanists are looking for a university to publish to publish the work so that's a bit of a shop around but that's exciting yeah that's going to be coming out hopefully this year yeah I will I will hunt it down that seems to be what I do um so you know I know you're you know you're the mom of five kids we've talked before about both of us you know having had having ADHD and kind of feeling like kind of outsiders or rebels.

The first question that we've been asking folks coming on the podcast recently is, you know, the title of the podcast is Weirdos in the Workplace. And most folks who listen to us and people who are on the podcast kind of feel like a little bit of a weirdo sometimes. How does that resonate with you? I definitely resonate with that. I do feel as a neurodivergent person, having ADHD and learning disability, but also being coded gifted as a kid, there's all kinds of ways that my brain works that I notice other people's brains do not work. And I think especially within corporate structure, this is my first time being outside of arts fields or other environments. So it's been a learning curve for me to actually work within a corporate structure that is a lot more hierarchical, a lot more bureaucracy and structure, and that is the beast that it is.

And so I think it's unfortunate though, because I think that my aspect of how I just kind of, you know, have different ideas just all the time bouncing around in my brain um there's there's patience and appreciation for that in my position and because it's also a new department and a new position this position within phsa it's not to confuse people i also am a senior consultant in the provincial health authority here in bc that um uh my position has not been done before. And so there has been a lot of leeway in terms of what I'm able to bring to the organization, how we're actually able to make something happen. So there's probably more flexibility than normally would be experienced.

But I have had to think in a different way. I've had to learn that I have to provide more details to people, that people are not just going to catch my drift of what I'm trying to say. So it's, it's really forced me to be a lot more of a methodical thinker, a tactical thinker, work strategically, and really make sure that all the ways that my brain wants to do things that I'm actually, that I've actually got a plan, which is difficult to do. If anybody that has ADHD, no planning is not necessarily a hallmark strong point. So it's really taught me a lot of new skills. And so I've embraced trying to work within that kind of structure. Wow. Yeah. I always tell people, like, I don't know that I could do it.

You know, like I physically don't know if I could work within like a highly bureaucratic governance model. hopefully to the point where folks with ADHD can navigate the world of work a little bit more easily and find the accommodations that they need in order to survive there, let alone thrive, you know? Yeah. What are you seeing in the world of work these days? Are you seeing the positive movement that we all sort of been hoping for? I do. I think the biggest point of frustration comes with me not really knowing how to answer the question when I get it, how can I support you? It's a later in life diagnosis for me.

And so for me to actually understand myself enough to communicate what I need has been a struggle. I think also, but, but yeah, in general, I think there's a change in terms of people want to know they want, they're not just taking it like, oh, everybody has, you know, you've heard that everybody has a little ADHD. Oh, I forgot my keys three times last week. And so I must have it too kind of thing. I think people are kind of understanding more neurological differences. And there, there has been that positive shift and like, okay, let, let, let's try to understand how you need support and what that looks like and how we can accommodate. A bit of a caveat though, is that the better you can advocate for yourself is sometimes the harder it is to get your needs met because it's kind of like, okay, well, you work really well in this area.

You might have even an exceptional ability in X, Y, Z way. So do you really need this accommodation? And so I find that that can be a little difficult. And I don't think it's quite 100% changed in that regard. But I think it's moving in the right direction. I think it's just people, I think what we need to do is normalize from the interview process, because we know the employee experience starts right from the interview, sometimes even before that you can disclose something like that. I know a lot of people don't. I didn't.

I never do. it's normal to disclose if you have a hidden disability and um and feel safe doing that and know that um you you will be supported you'll you'll be understood I think corporate culture has a long way to go in that regard oh I would agree with that I mean the word on the street like the advice on the street you know uh, in the different groups that I'm involved in with disability groups or neurodivergent groups is not to disclose, you know, like that, you know, you better not because yeah, you don't even know if you're being discriminated against, frankly. Right. So, and there's very little, like, like you know very few checks and balances um so it would be really nice if we could like really trust that an employer wasn't going to discriminate or even if they were you know i mean i i think it's great to employ people with disabilities because people with disabilities have amazing problem solving capabilities because they've you know we've been problem solving our whole lives trying to figure out how to you know be like a regular person or whatever you know uh just trying to do stuff that everyone takes for granted a lot of the time so um i think i think you should hire more people with disabilities i don't know. What do you think?

Yeah, I, there was something in the UK that I read about that, like a long time ago with companies that were actually prioritizing hiring people with neurodivergent brains. Right. Ability to hyper-focus was one of them that was an attractive quality. ability to hyper focus was one of them that was an attractive quality um just uh being able to offer different solutions quickly um processing quickly i think that's a misunderstanding of a lot of neurodivergencies uh that it takes us maybe a while longer to get things maybe maybe in certain regards um but i find, I don't know if you find this because everybody with a given diagnosis or, you know, condition is different, but I find my brain works quite fast.

And so sometimes, you know, just the other day, my, one of my colleagues was like, cause we try to give these kudos where it's's like, give say something nice to your colleague next to you kind of thing. And so he's like, I just don't know how you know what you know. I know what I know. Do you know what I'm saying? Because the way that I learn is like, not in a, let me read this and learn this, you know, it's just like a lot of subliminal stuff. So yeah, I think understanding how that kind of person thinks and works and operates. Yes, there's a long way to go with that. But there's a there's a lot of ways where employers have realized, oh, this is actually a benefit. I think there's, because of all the accommodations we've had to make throughout our lives and workarounds and all these kinds of things, it helps us to see things from a different angle a lot of the time. Like if a group of people are, because they're institutionalized, and I don't, I mean that in the way that they're used to thinking within the corporate process. So it's always like the thought at the end of it is always, how will the board see this? How will such and such director or ed see this and so you're not really using your own um thinking at that point you're kind of thinking how someone else would how someone else would be thinking about it and i think that's where a lot of limitations come in and how people think about things.

I don't even have the ability to think like that. So I just put it out there and, you know, I'm always bringing new and fresh ideas to my team because I think I have the stamina to do that because it's, you know, when you're talking to people, I don't know how many different things you do. I know there's a lot, but that's normal to me. If I was actually going to work and just coming home, I've never done that. And I don't know how that even works. I always am doing various different things and that always looks scatterbrained. If you are not used to that kind of way of being. And so I think it's a struggle is it's a struggle to always be, you know, communicating to people like, no, I got this. This is just normal to me.

This is just normal to me. And so, yeah, I think it's a bit of a discovery for people to encounter somebody that is neurodivergent and actually have to work with them. So I realize I might frustrate other people. I realize I might talk too fast or I might be moving on too quickly, or I might be doing certain things. So just, you know, I'm open to bringing things to my attention, like, hey, could you please give me a little more clarity on that? I'm not there yet, or what have you. So I think you have to be open to understanding that not everybody's going to get you and just help people along with that because it's not really an expectation of mine that, oh, you know, understand me or else I just got to be patient.

I found like the weirdos in the workplace are usually the most, some of the most open-minded, you know, willing to accept feedback sort of people, like really like a strong belief in continuous improvement, because like, we've tried so hard to fit in and probably maybe, and it just didn't work, but we're constantly like striving to do better. It's like, but if I don't know from I'm an early age and it sounds like you were like this too. It was like, I can't fix what I don't know. You know, like I can't fix something about me.

Not that there's anything I should be fixing. I eventually learned necessarily, but you do want to make people feel comfortable. I don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable, you know, with my behavior or my, you know, if I'm too loud or too crazy or too whatever, like I want to make sure that I care about the way people feel around me as well. Right. And that's not because they told some, like, there's some like societal pressure to do that. It's really because I just, I just want people to feel comfortable, you know? And so if that means that like, I can learn to just dial something back a little bit you know I'm gonna do that and I think that's okay and that's that's an individual thing probably right um yeah I think it's actually really indicative of the condition of having um ADHD and what because we're always um that that I think that is actually a thing from childhood where, you know, we've been told we get a lot of feedback on our behaviors. Right. And so we are more concerned, I think, with how does this person think about me? Am I being too much? How are they perceiving me?

And yeah, so we are open to feedback because we have learned that we're not the best gauge of our behavior. we have learned that we're not the best gauge of our behavior uh so like to other people to say hey if i'm i'm getting too much um just let me know i'm totally fine with that um because we're used to it we're used to hearing you know hey calm down don't do that don't touch that don't you know as it's such a normal part of how we're how how we work but yeah I think one thing that popped out to me the other day I was talking to my son about my aha moment was um I think I understand the major difference between somebody that's neurotypical and somebody that's neurodivergent.

And he's like, what? Because he's autistic and has ADHD as well. And I said, it's, I think logic overrides emotion for somebody that's neurodivergent and emotion overrides logic for somebody that's neurotypical. It's just a theory. overrides logic for somebody that's neurotypical it's just a theory and I'm uh and I'm working on what that I'm working on what that looks like see if I'm right or not how right I might be but on the type of neurodivergence as well because I know people who are like borderline personality usually that's characterized by like very strong emotion like a very strong like inner world and emotional world and that kind of rides everything but definitely for me that strikes true for sure but is bpd a mood disorder or is it a neurodivergence or is it both centered i think it's with i think neuro it's a neurodivergence for sure yeah um I think most like personality disorders are considered neurodivergence as well which is okay okay see I'm learning something yeah I wasn't aware of that I thought it was quite separate so yeah yeah anyways it's it yeah it's interesting like even a psychopath would probably be considered neurodivergent I'm very sure yeah for sure yeah hernia is considered neurodivergent and yeah so but I think I think that's probably very true in certain cases of neurodivergency like for sure ADHD autism I think probably that's that strikes me as accurate anyways yeah very concrete way uh of thinking yeah yeah absolutely hmm very interesting um so before we you know I've been putting this out in the universe me and you and I both talk to a lot of DEI and for myself as well as accessibility advocates consultants you know people who are just working in this space or trying to make impact in this area and it's become really apparent I think to both of us as we were talking before that folks seem to be burning out.

You mentioned that some people are like, that you know, are like leaving the industry. This is really concerning for me, I think for all of us, you know, who are in the space trying to make an impact. I'm just curious, like, you know, what are you seeing as overall themes in the DEI space right now? This or other things? Yeah, I'm seeing burnout for sure. I've always seen that. There's stats to support that. The lifespan of someone in this profession is usually three to five years. And I've seen more recently two, two to four.

So I definitely get that people are tapped out. They have to often perform miracles with little to no budgets. as the representation of everything to do with that work. And so I find that now there is more of an understanding that DEI is everybody's work to do, that this person is leading it, but it's everybody's work to do or else it doesn't work. And there's expectations there that can be expectations on the practitioner side and expectations on who is employing you or contracting with you to do the work. And so, and not saying that people that burnt out don't do this, but it's very important to set expectations from the very beginning.

Like, you know, I'm not a miracle worker. I'm going to need some resources. I'm going to need some budget. And kind of making that very clear. Also, when I've been looking for positions and I've been looking at what they're paying, I think that's disappointing as well for a lot of people. And as we know, the cost of living rising so sharply especially in the last few years it's really hard to keep up with these um with these laundry list job descriptions that want five to ten years experience in dei and how is that possible when this just became a field since 2020?

You must have a master's, you must have this, this, this. So I have now seen more of job descriptions that are more asking for a realistic parameter of skills, education, and so forth, because that can be really the crux of what the issues are, is that from the very beginning, it's like, can you perform miracles? And so that's part of it. And I think also when you're doing something in any official capacity that you've had to deal with your whole entire life, it can just, it can just become something like, okay, I think I'm kind of done explaining or I'm done justifying this work or, you know, and so I find that a lot of practitioners are like, well, if they don't get it, I don't know. I don't know how that's possible to not get it.

Whereas I find that I don't have that kind of attachment to what's somebody's level of commitment or understanding is even. And so when I talk about the new certification I have, which I'll, you know, talk about later, even. And so when I talk about the new certification I have, which I'll talk about later, I think it really helps because people and practitioners have not had really a lot of frameworks that they can apply. And so how do you get other people involved in doing the work if there really isn't a concise framework. There was a standard before, but there's been issues with that. So I think it's just setting expectations like, here's what I do, here's what I need you to do, and here's what I need to do the work, and here's what doing the work means. So when a lot of practitioners were let go recently in the United States and whatnot, they were doing that based on seeing DEI only as addressing race.

So I saw this happening and I was like, there's going to be a counter swing to this because it is not just race. It is every marginalization and also newer generation, Gen Z, early millennials, Gen Alpha now coming into the workforce. These are generations that identify in more than one marginalized group at the same time and more multiracially. group at the same time and more multiracially. So I really think it's not understanding even the basics of what this work actually is. And then, you know, people with lived experience being stuck with, okay, how do I actually framework this, action this out, get people on board, get buy-in? It's very difficult. It's not easy work. No, it's certainly not. It's extremely emotionally laborious, this work. I'm not a DEI practitioner, you know, so, but I have many friends who are DEI practitioners. And I think you get into the work, like most people get into, you know, culture work or a lot of the work that we do in coaching and whatnot, because we have some kind of lived experience that, you know, developed a passion for something.

You know, we feel like we want to change something. So we enter this change management space in a niche area like DEI or accessibility or, you know, different kinds of cultural transformations. And, you know, it feels like you're pushing a boulder up a hill a little bit. And I think you're right. I think it's because, you know, we're not really trying to meet people where we're at. We're going in with an agenda, you know. It's sort of the opposite of the coach mentality in some ways, where it's a coach mentality, right? You're like, you're meeting people where they are without an agenda and you're working on their agenda. It's like we're coming in with this agenda and, you know, trying to apply our worldview onto, onto something. And that doesn't mean that that worldview is, you know, I think the, I think it's a good worldview to have. Right. I think it's important. Yeah. I mean, a few things there, a few things there is that I'm not just speaking from lived experience and we've actually had this issue in training because I do a lot of, I do a lot of education. There's a lot of scholarship.

There's a lot of hardcore academic scholarship behind DI work because it's human rights and there's a long documented history of human rights issues since the inception of Turtle Islands and since the inception of Canada and the United States and Western countries. You know, different groups have been telling us what their experiences are. So that can be part of the frustration for people doing this work is like, you know, we've had three waves of feminism. We've had the civil rights movement. We've had disability rights movements. We've had this and that movement. How much more do you need to know? And so I think I also resist that kind of characterization that it's like this pocket niche thing, because it's literally every other type of human aside from the prototype normative human of a white male of a certain age, of a certain religion. So it's everybody else. And so that's not really niche to me. And I think that's kind of the mind setting behind it is how much of a smart business strategy is that to cut off something that is so pervasive and concerns so many groups of people? Because I think that people, I think that companies organizations, and this is just my guess, people I think that companies organizations and this is just my guess might not be what it is is that we focus so much on multiculturalism before and unity and all these things and it's wonderful but we weren't actually meeting people's needs we weren't actually hearing from people their struggles their realities and so it became a thing of like, oh, well, knowing the nuances of whether people bow or whether they handshake and thinking, well, that is cultural competency as far as relations go within a corporation. That's all a business person needs to know is, you know, the customs and those, those kinds, those are surface things.

Those are really surface things. I think in terms of what people are actually struggling with and what they actually need to fully participate is a totally different thing. And I don't think that's something that's easily understood without somebody with lived experience and expertise. You have to also have education in this area to be effective. Oh, absolutely. But I do think that there is often a lived experience that drives them to learn more, you know, to want to write a wrong. you know, to want to write a wrong, you know, want to write a wrong. And I think, I think that makes a lot of sense. That's almost, you're talking about building cultural competency as a transaction, right? Like I'm, we're doing business together.

We just need to know enough about each other to do business together. Whereas we're trying to build companies that have relationships between different kinds of people. And in order to do that, you need to be able to know enough to be able to treat somebody else like a human being. Is that, am I picking up what you're putting down? Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I can't emphasize the generational gaps in this work enough because you have, I mean, I remember working 30 years ago, 20 years ago, and it was like, you just show up and go to work. Nobody, there's not an expectation that your boss cares about you at all. And not to say that there wasn't bosses that didn't care. I've had great bosses even back then, but I think it was not an expectation. It is an expectation now. It is an expectation that when a George Floyd happens or when a Palestine happens or when a Wet'suwet'en or when something happens, that it is addressed in some fashion or form beyond a performative statement. And that was not an expectation before. And there's actually people that will not choose to work in your organization because they don't know where you stand on things.

And so it's an actual, it's a actual it's a it's a it's not so much a cancel culture but it's a culture of accountability and it's an adjustment we're making because we're not used to that we're used to this is your position this is um this is what it is do your work um it's that is a huge shift in the last few years. And that is where I think there's a difference and a misunderstanding is that people, I hear it all the time from people my age, people just don't want to come in and do their job. It is also inappropriate to talk about politics, to talk about religion, to talk about these things in the workplace not too long ago was considered downright inappropriate. And so now we've had to make this shift where people want emotionally intelligent, culturally competent, psychologically safe leadership. Huge, huge difference. safe leadership. Huge, huge difference. Yep. People want to know, like, can I live with their values and ethics? And in order to do that, we need to make those transparent and demonstrable, right? Like, you know, what are we putting our money where our mouth is? Are we actually, do we believe what we're saying? You know, are we, you know, getting that out in the universe? Are we actually doing the stuff that we say we do? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have three Gen Z's and you have some Gen Z's as well.

Do you have any millennials? No, no, no no no i my eldest is 26 i don't think that's millennial no i'm pretty sure it's not i don't know in the cutoff is um maybe 96 oh he's 97 seven so he might be he might be yeah like a late like um yeah yeah it might be just the cusp between you know in that bubble yeah um i think gen z though i think he's gen z yeah i think so yeah five yeah 26 to age uh 18 yeah what are you seeing as i'm curious maybe we're seeing the same things uh from our kids in terms of what they care about. They care about their world very, very much. And they are very aware of things on a level that, I mean, I was quite an aware kid. I was quite an aware teenager. But I think that they are not as, it's not as hard for them to understand certain things. Like where I might struggle with explaining intersectionality or generational trauma or emotional intelligence things to an older person um they don't struggle with that no at all like at all i can explain to them well this is that might they might not have heard the term but when they explained it to them they're like oh yeah yeah people are different in multiple ways and and not everybody needs the same thing and you, and they're more aware of justice pieces that, you know, they're more aware of what anti-oppression looks like, what anti-racism looks like. And these are things that are not as hard for them to grasp.

And so that's what I'm seeing is like the conversations that I can have with my kids are it would be an advanced conversation with a lot of other adults that I can have with my kids are, it would be an advanced conversation with a lot of other adults that I know. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah. I'm sometimes very surprised with how easy the conversation flows around some of these topics and how they're contributing to the conversation. And honestly, sometimes even teaching me things. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've had like, I talked to my kids about politics. I talked to them about religion. I talked to them about like all kinds of things and they're like, yep, get it. Got it. They might not agree with me all the time, but they get it. Yeah. I mean, they're, they're fine with disagreeing with me. That's never a problem. Yeah. I mean, they're, they're fine with disagreeing with me. That's never a problem. Mom's wrong. Tell me, okay. So you're writing a book, you've been writing a book, Thinking Outside the Boardroom.

Tell me a little bit about that. And then I want to talk about your new certification. Cause that sounds really interesting, but tell me about the book. Yeah. What all of that? because that sounds really interesting. But tell me about the book. Yeah. What all of that? I think outside the boardroom is kind of my understanding of this work. I wanted to put it out there. And I also wanted to help organizations explore creativity around it. Creativity, particularly regarding engagement. How do you get people into this discussion? How do you get people unafraid?

And, you know, helping people to build the capacity to actually engage with on very difficult, potentially highly divisive topics very difficult, potentially highly divisive topics in a, in a safe way. And so it's kind of that exploration and yeah, that's, I'm excited about it. It's I am actually going to be finished this month and it will go to the publisher and then hopefully have it in my hands. month and it will go to the publisher and then hopefully have it in my hands uh i'm hoping by october uh september that's amazing yeah um well i yeah we'll definitely have to have a virtual beverage together or something to celebrate really excited to read it. I'm excited to read it because I think that you think about things in such a, like, I want to say a complex way, but also simple, if that makes sense. Like, I think it's very nuanced and different the way that you think about this work. And I wish we had more time to really go into it, but hopefully people started picking a little bit of that up through the conversation as well. But tell me, okay, so tell me about your new certification and should I be getting this certification? Should I sign my card? Yeah. What can I say about it? It's diversity and it's diversity inclusion service management. So it's DISM. Long title is DISM ISO 30415 semicolon 2015, 2021, sorry.

So it is an international standard organization certification, which is, which sets it apart from what people were using before, which was, I don't know if I'm getting this 100% correct, DEI, DEIB or something like that. So that was. DEIB, is that the one? GDEIB, yeah. Yeah, so that's the documentation. They went, what happened to them? They just dissolved. Yeah, they dissolved. And so this standard also is UN endorsed. So there are... The UN has sustainability um goals and so this meets a few of them in terms of like gender equity creating gender equity and um you know a few other things so it was created by a queer black man who was what who was the first queer Black man to run for office in the United States, James Felton Keith. Follow him on Twitter, he's very entertaining.

And so in Canada, it's delivered by Ventura Collective. They are two Latinx women, Anna Maria and Linda. Hello. Hi. And so they are the certifiers in Canada. Basically, when something's ISO certified, it means that about over 150 countries, representatives from over 150 countries have looked at something and set quality standards for a given service or product. So people might be familiar with ISOs for various different things. And so it's making its way globally. They're having a conference in Atlanta, and I'm really excited because I'm going to go. And so it's starting to really take off in Latin America. It's being used in France, South Africa. So different countries are adopting the standard. The reason why I was so interested in it is because the way the health authority works in BC is it's an overarching health authority. So, PHSA is Provincial Health Services Authority, but there are different health authorities, specialty hospitals and whatnot underneath that. So, all the different DEI folks for different health regions have come together and said, we want a standard of practice. We want to establish a standard by which we do this work. And then I stumbled upon this. So I have been introducing it to them. I've introduced it to my team. And it's really a good framework because it shows you 27 different diversity types.

It shows you it's a spreadsheet of 171 questions that you can ask in an assessment. And that is scored. So it's called inclusion scores, the parent company. company, and that's James's company. And it's called Inclusion Score because your answer to each of those questions gives you a score. And then that helps to pinpoint in what areas you need to focus on, what areas can wait a little bit. So it shows you how, it shows you a maturity, it's a maturity model is what it is. So it shows you what your maturity level is in regards to different things, governance, procurement, and then depending on what your score is in certain areas, you go, okay, we really need to work on X, Y, Z. So it really helps people that want to engage, want to do the work, are committed to the work, feel it in their heart, but just haven't had a way of actually actioning it out. I see a lot of frustration with that, where people are like, okay, we want to do this work, we want to embed it and incorporate it in everything that we're doing, but how?

And that's always the big question so yeah it's I'm super excited about it's new in Canada I was part of the second cohort um but yeah it's also insurance it's also backed by insurance so um what is starting to happen in the United States is that and I think other countries too, is that insurance is starting to look into this and has interest in it because it can mitigate risk. It's looked at as if you have a sound DEI practice, that you are less of a risk to be sued. In Canada, we think we're not as litigious. However, that it just happens in a different way so in the states there would be full-on like lawsuit um in court in canada what tends to happen more are settlements and so those are things we don't hear about in the news but they happen all the time and insurance companies uh as anybody that's worked for an insurance company, which I have, they don't like to pay out. So in any way that they can not do that, they're interested in. So the assumption is that if you have a structured DEI policy, a plan, what have you, policy, a plan, what have you, that you will be deemed that you are less of a risk to ensure. Interesting.

That is good to know. And I'm going to look into this because it sounds extremely interesting and like it's just give you a good baseline probably of knowledge, even though as I'm not a DEI practitioner, but I think it's important for all practitioners, consultants to inform their work with a DEI and accessibility lens, right? Yeah, yeah. Specific to what I'm doing, you know, making sure we're able to speak the same language, for sure. Yeah, and it also gave me the freedom to acknowledge that DEI is a corporate process.

It's a corporate lifecycle process. And we struggle a lot with that in this work. And that makes some people uncomfortable because they're like, no, this is hard work. This is, you know, human rights. It's all hard work. And unfortunately, once that became a part of corporate hemisphere, let's say, I don't even know how to really describe that. But once you put human rights into a corporate container, it has to have some sort of systems aspects to it for it to be, quote unquote, done. of systems aspects to it for it to be quote unquote done um so i think it's um it acknowledges and it that di is a corporate process because i mean if you ask martin luther king what he was doing he wouldn't say he was doing di work um or you know this is um a corporate entity. It's a, it's a corporate idea.

And it doesn't mean that it's inherently evil. It just means that it's, it's, it's processing its systems. It's a way of systematizing, you know, human relations. So I think it's it's interesting. It's very, So I think it's interesting. It's very interesting how it's done pretty much the impossible. I know there's other models that are like it. The GDIB is not completely different, but I think it just takes it that much further. Well, and like we said, GDIB doesn't exist anymore, as far as I know, which is very disappointing, actually. I saw that last year. But this looks like a very, very valuable alternative. So that's really good. Very cool. Awesome. Thank you so much for coming in for all your knowledge on this topic, Kathleen. Yeah, thank you. I'm happy to have the opportunity to speak to your audience and just chat with you. It's always a joy to talk to you. Is there anything that you're like, just, you know, come in like Columbo at the very end?

Just one more thing that we'd like to, maybe the Columbo reference. Like I'm the oldest apparently. But you know, Columbo, if, if for those of you who don't know who Columbo is, this is Columbo's back in the, I think seventies and eighties, there was a TV show called Colombo and he was a private investigator um and he'd always come in right at the end after he kind of solved the case but nobody knew he'd solved the case and he'd just come back in you know that you thought he was about to leave maybe turn around and say just one more thing and then he'd crack the whole case right yeah i didn't miss him i didn't miss an episode of Murder, She Wrote, but I can't say I've seen too many Columbo episodes. Murder, She Wrote is also a very good, very, very good TV show that we should bring back for sure. That was good. I love that one. But do you have a Columbo moment for us? I do look out for my own podcast. That's in production. And yeah, I'm going to be writing in a lot of other compilations this year.

And I've got a Spotify going and I'm on TikTok. TikTok's going good. Yeah. Just, you know, find me different platforms. I'm everywhere. Um, and, uh, yeah, I think that's, I think that's pretty much about it. I think that I'll be speaking, um, I'll be speaking in Cambridge, Ontario, um, maybe coming to, out to Ottawa to see you. Um, I'll be speaking in Vancouver. So yeah, just, uh, I put it out there and it's coming back to me um about traveling more speaking um writing more um so yeah a lot happening well thank you very much our multi-hyphenate kathleen johnson yeah comedy uh yeah makeup artist and film yeah doing doing it doing it all doing it all uh brilliant but not not all at the same time necessarily yeah I just started getting back into film I've done makeup for a few um local projects here in Victoria.

But I was in IATSE in Toronto. So I have worked on major productions as well. But yeah, it's just anything, any reason to be around creative people, I take it. That's brilliant. Well, I cannot wait to read your book and continue to follow you. And we'll make sure that everything, every possible way you can follow Kathleen will be in the show notes. So stay tuned for that. Yeah.

Thank you so much.

Thanks Kathleen.

Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble!

Growing up with dyslexia and in a multicultural household, Nancy has navigated the challenges of being the 'other', and not fitting into societal norms. Now as an Ottawa-based DEI and employee wellness consultant who empowers marginalized and inferior voices, Nancy Cairns aims to create safe and healthy environments where everyone feels valued in corporate. If you've been the 'black sheep' of the herd, then you'll want to listen to this episode as Nancy Cairns addresses the DEI dilemma in corporate !

Stay in Touch with Nancy:

https://ca.linkedin.com/in/nancy-cairns-cwhp-p-8b1503296

Find out more on Nancy and her work:

https://holisticworkwellbeing.ca/

https://harbingermoon.ca/

Script:

Never considered myself racist, of course, but our systems are racist.

This is not a one size fits all process.

Neurotypicals versus neurodivergence, right?

Because really, DEI, ultimately what we're doing is we're asking people to be self-aware.

I'm seeing a lot of folks either like burning out or becoming jaded.

Do the best that you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.

Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work. And I am here with the fabulous Nancy Cairns. Welcome to the show. Hi, thank you so much. It's so good to be here. Absolutely. Glad you're here. So for those of you who don't know Nancy yet, glad you're here. So for those of you who don't know Nancy yet, Nancy is an Ottawa-based DEI and employee wellness consultant, a passionate advocate, innovative thinker, and champion for positive change, seeking to empower and amplify marginalized voices. Welcome to the show, Nancy.

Thank you so much.

Awesome. So this is Weirdos in the Workplace, right? And it wouldn't be a Weirdos in the Workplace episode if we didn't talk just a little bit about what makes you a little bit different or unique, or why were you drawn to this podcast?

Well, I have always felt like a misfit among misfits. You know, growing up, I was diagnosed with dyslexia, which I didn't know until I was well into my 30s, that that actually meant that I was neurodivergent. And that was such a validating experience for me to find out, oh, I'm neurodivergent. I'm not neurotypical. That's why my brain actually does work differently than other people. So I've always felt like I never quite fit in because I viewed things a little bit differently. I also grew up in like a small town, which is a lovely town, love my small town. But I grew up, my mother is Mexican. So that was very, even though I'm, I'm like, I'm clearly white.

I grew up kind of being othered a little bit because of growing up with a different culture, being exposed to a different culture. So I've always, I've always felt like I didn't quite fit in. And then, you know, when you, when you feel that sense of, of not fitting in, you kind of like, what's, what's going on with me? What, what am I doing? So you get into all the, like, I did the Myers-Briggs test and turns out I'm an INFJ, which is like only 2% of the population or something like that is an INFJ. So like all of these validating things that tell me that I am just, I, I, I walk to a different beat than, than a lot of the world. And I've learned that that's actually a beautiful gift and to embrace it. But, uh, you know, it took a long time to get here.

Yeah. Well, you definitely are in the right place. You know, we are definitely trying to reclaim the word weirdo because I think that the folks who listen to this podcast for sure. And a lot of the folks who are guests on the podcast definitely feel or have felt othered, felt like outsiders, have kind of a chip on our shoulder a little bit, like a little bit rebellious because of that. So welcome. And you're definitely, you definitely belong here with us.

Thank you. Thank you so much. Absolutely. But yeah, I know, I know exactly how you feel about like, you know, feeling like you're an outsider and not really knowing how to fit in. So for real, like it's, it's not an easy way to grow up and it definitely leaves a lasting impression on you. And it's probably why, one of the reasons why we're both kind of doing the work that we do. It's so true. I think because so many of us, we, we want to desperately fit in. So we end up masking and we're not our authentic selves as a result because our authentic selves, we feel like that's going to get rejected. Yeah.

So this whole idea of inclusivity is, is very important to me for, for that very reason, because I felt so othered for so long and yeah. yeah well and like you said before people with disabilities people who are neurodivergent have amazing gifts to share with the world that the world would know nothing about you know if we weren't included so and that really sucks yeah it does yeah it does yeah so um I mean that's really part of the the big part of the business case for DI I think is you know it's not just because it's the right thing to do we always hear that it's not just the right thing to do it's also the right thing to do in terms of like the business case. It's the smart thing to do, right? What do you think about that when you hear that?

Oh, I absolutely agree. It's because you're able to tap into workforces like everyone has their skill sets, right? So by having this inclusive, instead of trying to fit everyone into the same box, by having a more inclusive perspective, it allows people the space to bring their best foot forward. And as a result of that, you see more innovation, you see more productivity, you see more engagement. Like if you just think about in your own life, when you're in a situation where you feel a sense of belonging, where you feel really valued, how do you react in those situations? Do you feel like you really want to bring your best? You really want to contribute in a positive way because you feel valued. You feel a part of something, right?

Versus when you're in a situation where you feel like you have to speak a certain way, you can only act a certain way. You're, there's a lot of fear, you know, about, oh, I don't want to, I don't want to say this. I don't want to do that. And so you don't have that space to bring all of the beautiful gifts that you have inside of you as a result. So, so it's this untapped resource that really needs to, I believe it's going to be the future. It's going to bring all organizations into the future if they really start to tap into the humanity of all of us and understanding our humanity and letting us use our gifts together. I think like some people, I sometimes sometimes think like you know we we always lately at least we've been dividing it like neurotypicals versus neurodivergence right I don't know that it I don't know that I prescribe to that you know that binary model really I do feel like some of us are better able to cope with like our modern reality than other people. But this can only benefit everyone, you know, if we take this kind of approach. I think.

Yeah, absolutely. And not just talking about like neurotypicals and, and, you know, like just all of the, like the different know like just all of the like the different intersectionalities all of the different lived experiences the different cultures you know we live in a world now where you can hop on a plane and you can you can see so much of the world um you can live in different countries it's just it's so it's so beautiful and yet we're still trying to force people to act a certain way instead of saying oh what what what kind of lived experience what kind of wonderful um insights can you bring from your perspective from your lens instead we're like it's this very hierarch, this is the way that we have to do things and just toe the line. Right. And then people, people don't like they get just, I think it's just natural. You, you don't want to engage in that, you know, you're just like, okay, I'm just here to get a paycheck. Yeah. I'm just going to do my job, like what's on paper and that's it. You know, there's no curiosity. There's no, you know, freedom to explore. So what's the point? Yeah. Curiosity. That's a, that's a brilliant way of putting it. Having curiosity about, okay, this is something and this is great.

How can we make it even better? What can we do to you know that's how the innovation happens is those people coming with the ideas how can we make things even better and let's all work together let's collaborate let's bring different ideas to the table because if everyone's sitting around a table with the same idea you're just gonna get yeah you know the same product service over and over again so i i talked to a lot of folks who are like dei practitioners di consultants or have lived experience um intersectional experience as part of a marginalized group and who are you know working in their various ways to try to make this sort of culture well trans cultural transformation in organizations um and something that I've noticed that we talked about before Nancy was that I I'm seeing a lot of folks either like burning out or becoming jaded or like feeling like they're pushing a boulder up the hill and like not sure how long they can like stick it out for, you know.

I just wonder, you know, I know this isn't like a utopian dream, you know, that we're talking about here. I talk about it a lot as well in the previous season. I've talked about it quite a bit, kind of this idea of like building learning cultures, building diverse, you know, coaching cultures or learning cultures. building diverse, you know, coaching cultures or learning cultures. So I do think it can happen. And I've seen it happen. It's just so very rare. And oftentimes, it's like a micro culture in an organization, not kind of the overall culture in an organization. So it just feels like we're putting so much energy and time and money into these DEI strategies. And it feels like it's like we're throwing, you know, what's like, I don't know what the metaphor, I'm really bad with metaphors. Anyways, some metaphor about like, you know, just like throwing money in a black hole, basically, you know. Why do I feel that way? If you can put some words into it? Well, I think, I think there's a, there's multiple factors to this.

Um, I think it's an understanding, like a true understanding of, um, the benefits of DEI. I, I think that sometimes leadership, they're very focused on the operations, the day-to-day operations. There might be like some time scarcity. So it's like, we don't have time for this. Because really what we're talking about is like a culture change. And, you know, that might include like changing some systems, changing the way things are done. And that takes time and that takes energy, that takes resources. And when there's this feeling of time scarcity, when there's this feeling of, okay, but I'm trying to keep, keep things afloat, keep the operations afloat. Um, DEI gets pushed to the back burner or it's not done in that like daily habit, embodying it as part of your day-to-day life. Um, and, and that really, in my opinion, that needs to come, that really speaks to like leadership. Leadership really needs to understand and model like the DEI practices, the, the strategies, they have to really just live, live them.

And then that way, when they see, when the employees see their leaders, leadership are truly engaged and truly dedicated to diversity, equity, and inclusion, that's when they'll start to feel safe to, okay, okay, I can make some time for this. This is important. This will lead to positive things for me, if I actually embrace what we're talking about, instead of, well, you just need to do this training, this mandatory training by the end of the year. It's like, no, no, no. Like our leadership are actually talking, walking and talking these practices every day as part of their, the way that they run their shops. So employees feel empowered to embrace it as well. Totally. Yeah.

Do you think it's worthwhile spending a lot of money on DEI initiatives if the senior leadership in the organization isn't like fully bought on, bought in? Honestly? Yeah. No, I don't. No, I think that, that the time and, and the time and money should be going towards coaching, should be going towards training, should be going towards having leadership change their, the way that they think to more of a like servant leadership style, where they're looking at themselves as I am the cultivator of my employees. And then once they're in that mind frame, once they get that, then the next step I think is DEI. But until leadership really understands the importance of their people, it's like throwing money in a black hole yeah in a black hole whatever yeah exactly yeah okay yeah no I that tracks for sure that tracks and I think that is one of the reasons probably why a lot of DEI practitioners are just so frustrated and feeling like they've been banging their heads against the wall and, you know, starting to, I'm starting to see burnout. I'm starting to, like I said, see people become jaded with diversity, equity, inclusion, just I'm hearing from DEI practitioners. I'm so tired of talking about DEI.

Like I'm so tired of it. And that's a bit, it's, it's extremely sad because this is what they're passionate about. Right. And they believe in it and we know it's legitimate, but it's, it's so hard out there right now. It is tough because really DEI, ultimately what we're doing is we're asking people to be self-aware. We're asking people to reflect on themselves. Like some of the, some of the first training that we talk about is like unconscious bias, right? Like understanding unconscious bias and, and, and that can be difficult, you know, especially when you're at capacity yourself to take a, to take a moment, to take a step back, to be self-reflective and to also show empathy for somebody else and their situation when maybe you don't have that lived experience.

Like that's asking a lot. So that's why I think people can feel like they're pushing a boulder up a hill is because what we're asking people to do on an individual basis is to to to actually self-reflect to become self-aware oh maybe some unconscious bias is happening here and to also give themselves the grace to go through that learning process or that unlearning process right and that can be that can bring up some feelings of guilt, some feelings of shame. Like I know I experienced that when I went through my own unpacking of internalized misogyny, you know, I went through my own unpacking of, you know, unconscious bias and, and the racism that just, I, I never considered myself racist, of course, but our systems are racist. Right.

So I'm starting to recognize that and to take ownership of like how I can be anti-racist and taking the next step, like that takes work, that takes energy. And, and I think that's why it's like, it's tough. So again, like going back to what I was saying, it's important that leadership and we have to remember to leadership, they're humans, they're also human, they're dealing with their own stuff, right? So like, as the consultants, we're the ones that we have to create the space, the safe space for them to work through it and get them there so that they can create the safe spaces for their employees and really bring that culture change around, you know? Yeah. How do you know when a leader, sorry, continue. No, no, no, go ahead. I was going to say, how do you know when a leader is like ready to start this work? Or do you know when a leader is ready to start this work? Or do you know? I think just through conversation.

I think it's possible to make a human connection, because really that's what it is. We're all human and seeing each other's humanity and teaching leaders to see their employees as humans too and see their humanity. leaders to see their employees as humans too and see their humanity. So by giving them that experience, we can hopefully help bring them along to that as well. I use the example quite often about when it comes to accessibility, for example. I, of course, love love see the importance of accessibility but I didn't get it I didn't understand it okay till I was a mother on maternity leave with a stroller and a new baby trying to get through the world trying to see like oh oh there's only stairs here where's the ramp you know that's when I truly even though I had the empathy and the compassion for like, yes, we need this. We need, we need accessible infrastructure. I didn't understand it until I lived it. Right. So once, so tapping into that, to people's lived experiences, and that's something that's very independent. So that's why the burnout happens because it's just such a, this is not a one size fits all process. This is something you have to meet people where they're at. Right.

And, and then go from there. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't help that it's like, in order to become a DEI practitioner, that role itself comes with an enormous amount of self-awareness and requirement for context, you know, so you're constantly seeking new perspective, assimilating new perspectives, right. Trying to learn as much as you can about as many different, you know, people's experience, lived experiences as possible, so that you can try to advocate on their behalf as well and integrate that knowledge back into the system. And so just that in itself seems like an enormous amount of work. And then to do that, and then have your efforts not being really appreciated well, you know, and not, you know, feeling like you're really making the impact that you know you could make. That has to be difficult. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, what you're doing in a lot of these cases when you're coming into these environments is these are not inclusive environments. They don't have these, right? So you are having the same experience as their employees are having basically, right?

So you're having to overcome that. But the thing is that they've hired you on to do that. And maybe that's just a gentle reminder of you hired me to do this. So with me, like, let's work together. We both want to obtain the same goal here. Yeah. But that's the really hard part because you're dealing with these environments that aren't necessarily uh very safe psychologically safe inclusive diverse equitable work environment you know that's what they brought you in was to support with that creating that doing that work so it's almost like um it and that's why it's so tough I think it's almost it's nice when you're in a work environment where it's already that it's already like that, right.

It's psychologically safe work environment, um, where the boss is like a servant leader. It's, it's amazing. You can, you feel like you can really thrive, but when you're, when you're a consultant, you're not in that environment necessarily or they're just like at the very beginnings of that and they still need their hand held a little bit to get them further along the road or you're probably unpacking all kinds of trust issues all kinds of you know probably um trauma in the workplace as well you know there's there's a lot to unpack when you start to work with these organizations. I'm not a DEI practitioner, but I can see it from other angles that I went in, you know, other areas where I work with companies. Yeah. It's, it's the wild West for sure. Yeah. Yeah. How do people keep themselves? How do you people like yourself, like, how do you keep yourself healthy through the process? How do you like for the longterm, like you want to be a DEI practitioner, you want to, um, you know, you want to be doing this for a long time, hopefully. How do you keep yourself healthy and motivated? Well, one thing is to learn not to take things personally, to kind of put up a boundary. Even if like you envision a golden bubble around yourself, which I know sounds so woo-woo, but it works. Like just envision yourself in this bubble where nothing can actually touch you. And just know, again, with that self-awareness piece, because we're so self-aware, a lot of times you can recognize like, oh, they're projecting. This is, this is actually their, you know, their thing.

So to not take it home with you and to take it personal and to ruminate on it. And if you do start ruminating on things, because it's natural to do that, especially when it's something that might be stressful or hurtful, you know, that's just part of being human. Yeah. To do grounding, grounding type exercises, journaling. I know I'm not a therapist in any way, but I am a huge advocate for journaling, journaling out how you're feeling, like what, what happened if it's one particular situation that maybe happened, like write it all down. And then you can go back to it, reflect on it. Or if you're like really ticked off, you can rip it up, you know, like physically do something to get rid of those horrible feelings that you might be having um so those are some those are some tips and then for grounding i mean you could you could go on google and find all sorts of grounding techniques but one of my favorites is i'm actually using it right now, because I'm a little bit nervous, I have just something to help me ground that I'm that I'm rubbing. So if you're in a situation where you're feeling stressed to just have something, put it in your hand and, you know, and just focus on that and focus on your breathing. That can help bring you back and be mindful, you know?

So yeah, grounding techniques, journaling, like all of the therapy things, basically, all those things you read about in self-help books and all of that, that really helps with keeping that energy, like protecting your energy, really protecting yourself and protecting your energy not letting them get to you not letting them get you down you know yeah don't let the man get you down guys yeah stick it to the man um no i think that's, that is helpful. Uh, and then the motivation to keep going, like, what do you think about that? Well, I think that it's a, it's probably a good idea for you to have a little strategic session with yourself. Like that's what we do for a living. A lot of times figure out what your why is, what's your why, why am I doing this? Write it down. out what your why is what's it what am I doing this write it down and then if you're feeling like why this is why am I doing this I should just give up go back to it and look at this is why I'm doing this is that enough is that still enough yeah and if not know, you have to take care of yourself. Yeah. Excuse me. Totally. All good. Um, yes, you do need to take care of yourself first for sure. And I think taking breaks is okay. And I think having diversified work is okay too. Like maybe it would just be too much to do like a hundred percent DEI consulting for some people. That's, that's okay. Like do, do, you know know you can have two side hustles there's two hustles two full-time muscles yeah absolutely that's actually that's a great great idea great advice yeah or um or it doesn't even have to be a side hustle could be a hobby like just take some time and do that hobby that makes you happy yeah so that you don't burn yourself out yeah yeah and take breaks yeah take breaks for sure breaks are super important sometimes if I've gotten all my stuff done I let myself play Zelda on my um Nintendo Switch for like 20 or 30 minutes nice my break time yeah how about? What's your favorite break thing? I go for a walk. I like to go for a lunchtime walk. And I block off my schedule. Like sometimes you can't help it. You have to, sometimes you have to have a lunchtime meeting.

But I really try and respect that time. That's my self-care time. That's my time to reset. So lunchtime, I go for a little 15, 20 minute walk at lunch. And then I do what I call my meditation nap. Oh, cool. Tell me more. minute, 10 minute meditations on it. And I found one that I really love in particular. And it's like, it's a meditation nap and it puts you into a trance. So it's just like this 10 minute refresher nap. And it just gives me energy for the after, like to get through the afternoon. Oh, I think that sounds like a great idea. I love it. I'm going to have to Google that the meditation nap. Yes, please. I might do that right away after, after this recording session, I might do that. That sounds fun. It's so funny now that I'm like an old lady that I like, Ooh, sleeping is the best time of my day. It really, but it really but it really is it's so you know when we're talking about self-care like getting enough sleep is so important for your like for your well-being overall is getting enough sleep so that's another like just tip overall make sure you're getting enough sleep actually yeah like you're right a lot of it comes back to like are you sleeping are you eating properly are you hydrating are you getting some exercise like and if you're doing those four things then you know hopefully you're on the right track at least right yeah yeah exactly and if you're going through like a rough patch give yourself grace like don't be too hard on yourself but try and make that like your your constant you know like that's your regular that's what you go back to right yeah and don't let one difficult client yeah don't let one difficult client get you down you know because there are lots of difficult clients out there yeah sure yeah don't give them that power over you right don't don't give don't give other people too much power over your own well-being you have to you have to again not take it personally and just that energy out. Right. Yeah. Exactly. It's easier said than done, but like the, I think usually the first thing that happens before you find the answer is you ask the question, right?

So if you want to figure out how to, you know, separate yourself from that emotion or whatever, from that energy, you have to ask the question, how do I separate myself from that energy? So yeah, well, it's true. I think it's been true for me. We'll put it that way. So in our previous conversation, we started talking about like how DEI can be quite performative sometimes for a lot of organizations. And sometimes even folks go so far as to bring DEI practitioners into their organizations and it just becomes this performative sort of event that happens. And I know that that gets people down because they are not making the impact like they wish they would. So how do we know if a client, if we think a client, if there's like red flags, how would you, how would you know whether you thought someone was being performative or whether they were serious? If they're willing to do the work or not, you know, the very first steps are, are getting a baseline, checking in with employees and stuff so if they're not interested in working with employees and getting their feedback about how they're feeling um and they just want you to come up with a strategy right like yeah just put together a strategy for us and we'll implement it like no no no this is something that has to be co-designed. There has to be buy-in from all players, like leadership, HR needs to be there. If it's unionized environment, union needs to be there. And of course, employees, frontline staff, you know, everyone needs to be at the table to start building this, this culture of diversity, equity, and inclusion to create that sense of belonging. Everyone needs to be part of that conversation. So if there's a client that's, that's not interested in doing that and just wants you to like give them some sort of template, then that's, to me, that's very, that's performative. They don't actually want to do the work. They just want to check mark DEI off their little strategic list for the year or whatever. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And similarly, probably with like the DEI training, you know, the, like you said, like the yearly compliance training or what it's named compliance training, but the yearly, the training that they, you know, they might, they might provide to their employees. Yeah.

And then are they taking it themselves? Like it's leadership also taking this mandatory training or are they just getting their employees to do it? You know, like they also have to be attending these and, and it would be great if they're in the same meetings as their employees. Right. Oh yeah. Again, they're modeling that, that behavior, that, that embracing of this culture. Yeah. Okay. So let's put a little checklist together since leaders love checklists. Okay. If you're a leader in an organization and you want to build DEI practices, you want to build DEI practices, inclusionary practices within your organization, because you know that like in theory, at least it should help with performance. It should help with retention, help with the bottom line and the top line. What do we need to tell them to do? What do you absolutely need to do? Obviously modeling you mentioned so modeling the behaviors which behaviors specifically nancy um the including diversity equity inclusion lenses to everything that they're doing on a daily basis so in team meetings you know being very inclusive. Do do staff feel like they can speak up? Do they do they feel safe to speak up? Is everyone's opinion? Does it seem like it matters in meetings? they have? Like, are they, are they trying to hire more diverse candidates or when it comes to going up the ladder, you know, I've heard feedback before about the importance of seeing somebody that looks like them in leadership, right?

So trying to build that up so that people feel like they have an opportunity to grow. And here's an example, a very specific example that really changed in terms of wellness, really changed my perspective. I came from a very toxic work environment where it was like 24 seven, go, go, go. You ate lunch at your desk, you know, if you ate lunch at all. And then I moved into a new environment that definitely was very diversity, equity, inclusion, employee wellness type of work environment. And my boss, my direct boss came by my office and I was eating lunch at my desk because that's, that's what it was normal for me. And they said, Nancy, go take your, go take your lunch. It's on shower. Go take your lunch. Like stop right now and go take your lunch. I'm going to, I'm taking my lunch too right now. So you go, go take your lunch. And that like getting that permission by, by my boss to actually go leave my desk, take my lunch and to see that they were actually like leaving the building and going and taking their lunch as well. That was so impactful. Right.

So just like something that kind of, that's what I mean when I say modeling that behavior is, you know, taking your lunch, taking your vacation, not emailing after hours. And you know what? I understand that sometimes that's what happens with with management, like with leadership. But then if that's the case, don't send the email like after hours. Schedule it so that it goes during work hours so that i've also seen where like where there's like a little tag added added at the end i don't know if you know that one where it's like um this is the time that works for me but you answer when it works for you kind of thing yeah Yeah. Which, which is great too. I, in my opinion, I think it's better to schedule it because people are still getting that, that message on their phone from their boss and they're looking at it. Right. So just don't disrupt them at all after work hours. So like, that's, that's the kind of modeling of behavior. Recognize being vulnerable in front of their employees. You know, that's another big one, like showing their own humanity, um, admitting like, I don't actually know what the answer is here, or I made a mistake, you know, we made a mistake and that's on me. Like that, that's all the type of modeling of behavior, um, that creates that trust, building that trust, like you were talking about earlier, how you're going into places where maybe the trust has been broken.

All of that, I think, helps build that trust by modeling that behavior, by seeing that action of your leadership doing that kind of stuff. Totally. Yes. And that is literally what leading by example means. And it's interesting how few people do that well like it it feels like like what you just did like creating a list of actual behaviors like in scenarios this is what people need to see it's like and then and then building that like discipline right to actually implement it regularly and consistently is difficult. Like I remember we worked with one team a few years ago and they did this whole culture. Well, they want to do this whole like team building, cultural transformation thing, right? And one of the things was, you know, we want to take Fridays off in the summer, but the problem is leadership team always ends up working and everyone else kind of knows that because they just weren't disciplined or they didn't have the processes, the systems to be able to like, you know, take the Friday off. So it was like, nothing, it's not going to work, you know, like you want everyone to have Friday off. Well, guess what? Nobody's going to take Friday off. If they know that the leadership team is working, it's just going to be, it's like a trickle down, right? The leadership team is working Friday.

And then all of a sudden, like, because they're sending emails, the manager is going to start checking emails and they're going to start working Fridays. And then everyone else is going to follow suit because it's like, you know, the person who's not doing it then is sort of on the outside, right? The person who's actually implementing, like they're like following, oh no, we were supposed to have Friday off. Just following, you know, they're going to end up being the one on the outside. So all that to say, yeah, lead by example. Yeah. And I think you've brought up a really good point as well around and planning for it, having the proper cover off set up so that this is something that can actually happen so that you're implementing it and you're implementing it well. So instead of just saying, okay, we're going to just start taking Fridays off. Well, how are we going to do that? How are we going?

This is the goal. We want to take Fridays off. Let's chunk that out. What do we need to do in order to achieve this goal altogether? And that, that piece can sometimes be missing. And then it, you know, and then it looks bad for all DEI initiatives because they're not being implemented in a thoughtful way. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. You know, something like a, like a four day work week is simple in, in some ways, you know, because it's either you're either, either you have to work more hours during the rest of the week, or you have to adjust amount of work you know there's really no other way to go about it um but yeah it's um it's interesting so uh I know we both want to like kind of like burn it down and rebuild it what are you doing to help shake things up this year me personally yeah what are you doing what am I doing what am I doing to burn it all down um burn it all down but you know let's say shake it up well you know I I think whenever I'm I'm working with anyone that's the attitude that I'm taking. You know, I, I think, thankfully, I'm in a position where I can be discerning about which clients I want to work with.

So if, if I don't see that they actually want to do that change, then I'm not going to put my time and energy and my skills towards that. But again, not everyone has that opportunity. Right. And I think just, I've been really educating myself as much as possible about everything that I possibly can in terms of, you know, all the different, when it comes to intersectionality, all the different identities you know, all the different, when it comes to intersectionality, all the different identities, so that I can bring a better understanding when I'm coming to the table and I'm supporting others. It's hard for me to support others when I don't necessarily understand things. So the way that I'm trying to support with creating new systems is like understanding exactly how these systems are hurting marginalized communities. So educating myself, you have to know that there's an issue, right, before you can fix it.

So by being able to recognize what the issues are, hopefully I can go in and help support with doing that fixing. Yeah, that's awesome. How about you? How am I shaking things up? Well, we have the train to help project, of course. And that is our technology membership platforms. It's a membership platform, software membership platform for retail businesses to help them become more inclusive to people with disabilities. And our pilot starts in August and then we're going live in October, November. And it's, yeah, it's a lot, but it's going to be very, very cool. So we're really serving sort of two underrepresented groups in that not a lot of people work directly with retailers and we're serving people with disabilities. So we're, you know, it's pretty cool. That's amazing. That's very exciting. Thank you. And from like the research that I've been doing, when employees have access to resources like that, it can make a huge difference in terms of their engagement, in terms of their wellness altogether. That's incredible. Congratulations.

I hope it goes well oh yeah so far it's it's been really interesting it's funny how like people who get it really get it and then people who've never have don't have any lived experience with disabilities whatsoever like no friends or family in them or themselves don't get it at all like and this is where we start to roll the ball up the boulder uphill right yeah anyway yeah and it speaks to what we were talking about earlier with it's that lived experience and asking people to see the humanity in others and it's very it's very difficult for people you know we're all we're all living our lives we're all in our own bubbles dealing with our own problems and uh you know and asking people to go outside of that can be can be hard can be tricky and um yeah and it's something that we have to do like societally which is why we need to burn it all down so that we're all you know taught to be more compassionate to be more empathetic towards each other to see each other's humanity and value each other's humanity instead of um you know in historically there's been this belief of like superiority based on your race or based on whether you have money or not or you know like your health yeah your beauty yeah exactly exactly um all those different identities again on that wheel of power and influence um so that's like now i'm really dreaming of a utopia. I know, I know. Asking, you know, for everyone to see each other's humanity, but hopefully one day. You know what?

I am raising three teenagers. I have 19, 17 and 15 year old kids. And I have a lot of hope for that generation they're pretty cool you know and they really do I do think that they're they've got a lot of built-in empathy that some I mean obviously I don't know all of them but from the folks that I have seen I'm very impressed with I think they're going to be good leaders that's amazing that. That gives me hope. You've got to have hope because if you don't have hope, then why even get out of bed? What's the point? Lay down forever. Thank you. That's really, that's good to hear. That's amazing. It's been really nice to have you on the podcast. I really appreciate this conversation. So thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. Is there anything, a final little thought maybe that you have for the folks listening? Yes. Yes. Okay. So I did, I picked out a quote. I'm I'm a little bit nervous so I'm gonna put it right here in front of me and try and read it out so this is uh by Maya Angelou who I absolutely adore incredible um I also am like I have a communications background, as I mentioned, and I love to write.

And I just think she's a brilliant writer and so insightful and so strong and amazing and an inspiration. So this is a quote from her and it says, do the best that you can until you know better than when you know better, do better. And I think that really speaks to diversity, equity, and inclusion, you know, and giving yourself that grace as you're going through that, that learning and that understanding. And then once you, once you gain that learning and that understanding, then do better. Yeah. And then if we all just do that, the world would be like a happy rainbow sunshine place we would imagine all the people you know yeah i love that oh well thank you so much Nancy we'll we'll chat soon we'll have you back on the podcast maybe next year how does that sound awesome great thank you

Don't forget to stay weird stay wonderful and don't stay out of trouble.

In this episode of Weirdos in the Workplace, host Erin Patchell welcomes back executive coach Eleanore Eaves to discuss her groundbreaking concept of "corporate grief." Eleanore introduces this new term, explaining how it encompasses the emotional impact of workplace events like layoffs, mergers, and even personal tragedies on employee performance and organizational success.

Key topics include:

• The $8.9 trillion cost of employee disengagement
• How toxic positivity fails as a strategy in the workplace
• The importance of acknowledging grief and difficult emotions at work
• Similarities between corporate grief and generational trauma
• Practical approaches for leaders to address and manage corporate grief

Eleanore also shares details about her upcoming executive retreat in Scotland, featuring experts in mental resiliency, mindfulness, and change management.

Join us for an insightful conversation on bringing humanity back to the workplace and transforming how we handle difficult emotions in professional settings. Learn why addressing corporate grief is crucial concept for employee retention, engagement, and organizational success.

#CorporateGrief #WorkplaceCulture #EmployeeEngagement #LeadershipDevelopment #OrganizationalChange

Stay in Touch: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eleonore-eaves

Website: https://eavescoaching.com/

Script:

We don't want to talk about grief. We don't want to talk about death. We don't want to talk about all these different aspects of life that is part of life.

Toxic positivity is not a strategy.

And as you can imagine, that A shocked a lot of people.

Stories last forever, right? The echoes of the bad experiences get passed down to the next group of employees.

Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work. And I'm here with my friend, Eleanor Eves. Welcome back, Eleanor. Thank you so much for having me back. I'm super excited to have you back. And I'm really excited about this topic that we're going to be talking about. But before I get there, those of you who did not come or you haven't listened to Eleanor's previous podcasts on Weirdos in the Workplace with me, go back to season one and definitely listen to them because she's awesome. Eleanor is the founder of Eve's Coaching and couldn't in case you couldn't tell if you're listening to this on Spotify or Apple Music or a podcast platform, you won't be able to actually see us. But it does say Eave's coaching right in the top right hand corner of her of her screen there. And that is the that is her business, Eave's coaching and Eleanor is an amazing executive coach and soon to be author. executive coach and soon to be author.

Thank you very much.

Yes, absolutely.

So Eleanore, please introduce this topic because it is it is a quite it's a serious topic. It's a very human topic. And I'm really excited to talk about this with you.

Yes, thank you. So it's it's a coin. It's a term I am coining as... Hold on, let me refresh that. Okay, I figured that's where she could cut it off, right? So yes, thank you very much.

So corporate grief is a term I am coining to describe a range of actions of individuals who are processing emotions and events in a number of different ways. But all of these events and their actions as a result have real dollars and cents implications, both for their own career trajectory, but also too for the organizations within which they operate. So this is beyond looking at mental wellness or workplace culture and environments and all of that from an emotional or from a psychological point of view, that how does this actually impact performance? How does this actually impact very measured, tangible things such as dollars and cents. Okay. So corporate grief, this is a new term that you've developed or that you've coined. Okay. And this isn't, this isn't, this is not currently like a buzzword anywhere. No, I really haven't seen it around a lot. This is why I kind of came up with it. It's basically taking what we understand from the scientific aspects of the neurobiology and psychology of grief and trauma, but placing it within the context of corporations and how they operate, right? So I'm sure for the majority of your listeners, the most easily to understand approach is after a merger or after a corporate acquisition, when there are mass layoffs, or if there are mass layoffs for other reasons. What we tend to see is those who are left within their jobs or who are able to maintain their positions have some level of survivor's guilt, right?

Now, the survivor's guilt, as you can imagine, has runoff effects. In a very interconnected world as we are, it's not just a very isolated feeling like it maybe was in 30, 40 years ago, but it's a world where people are consistently engaging with fellow colleagues, right? Whether it be on social media, via text messages, WhatsApp, whatever the case may be. So they're never really separated from it. And so these feelings compound and in a world as well, where, you know, news is easily acceptable or accessible in any different environment.

Okay, hold on. And as well, you know, in a world where it's very easy to, to continuously be in contact with, with anyone, these feelings compound and it does impact their performance, especially at a time where they could either have an opportunity to grow within an organization or where the organization really, really needs them to be doing additional work because now it's critical times, right? There are less people, there's more work to do, there are far more pressures. So we're looking at it from multiple different angles okay so just I'm unpacking all of the things that you've said and there's so much here okay so let me just let me stream of consciousness smart for a minute at you yeah if you don't mind love it love it so what I'm picking up I'm I'm thinking when as you're talking I'm thinking about generational trauma right yes and we know, I'm thinking about generational trauma, right?

And we know we have a language for generational trauma when it comes to us as individuals, we're, we're beginning to have a language. Those of us who've thought about this have maybe gone to therapy, have done some personal development. Those of us, you know, we have a generation of trauma and we generally have a relatively consistent framework for that. We don't talk about this in the context of corporations.

So I think this is interesting. You know, when they say, okay, let me process this as I'm talking. Cause you know, I'm an out loud thinker. Cause I don't, I can't think of it. Love it. So corporations, we always say that people aren't like human employees. What other kind of employees are there? AI employees? People are less, they're jumping from job to job all the time. They're less committed to one job, it feels like, right? But if you think about that, if you flip it from the employer perspective, over the last 60 years, since the 1960s, employers have also become less committed to their employees. Yes. Right? Absolutely. And so when I'm thinking about generational trauma and corporations, it almost feels like, you know, when you talk about generational trauma and people you're talking about, there's, you know, 20 to 40 years between each generation. Yeah.

You know, if you look at, um, the way, you know, human being, human biology, um, changes over, you know, decades and millennia and centuries and millennia, like how slowly that our biology changes, how slowly we adopt like in an evolutionary way. When you think about like, you know, a cockroach or a small mammal, how they adopt in an evolutionary way, it's much faster because they have much faster reproduction, right? Yes. And so they can, their biology changes more quickly. They're more able to adapt to their environment because like their genetics change. You know, this is why we can breed show dogs or whatever, because, you know, well, we can be very intentional about breeding them and producing very specific characteristics because, you know because their biology, their lives are shorter essentially, right?

And they grow adults so much faster than humans. So the way I'm putting this all together, it feels like we almost have like a generational, like a trauma evolution within the workplace, within a corporation that has been see this is me processing out loud it's not I'm not doing very well at it but you know it's almost like it's been condensed right in a way it's the the grief process the the trauma has been condensed you know because of this rapid turnover like the the build-up of this trauma among people in such a short period of time does that resonate at all with you like I'm you know what I'm I don't know if you're picking up what I'm putting down here I I think I am. And correct me if I'm not understanding what you're putting down properly. But no, you're absolutely right. And, you know, there's, when we talk about organizational legacies and cultures as well, we also have to understand that there are organizational storytelling and things that get passed down it's not just the good it's not just you know how do we operate and that sort of stuff but it is not the good right exactly um but these institutionalized um sources of grief also compound. And this is where you start getting, you know, the disengagement and disenfranchised sources of grief, right?

So there are terms that we could take from, uh, from other studies such as thanatology. Um, so for instance, like disenfranchised grief would be when a person um does not feel as though their experiences are being acknowledged within their within their environment right so think of you know for those of us who own pets when we lose a pet who we could consider to be like a child a lot of people won't understand that. And so we're left to our own devices, right? We don't have grieving days for that, right? Or other instances within organizations. So you get this form of, as you rightfully said, generational trauma, but that generational trauma could also be uh the organizational culture depending on what that looks like do people feel that they have a right to treat others a certain way because they survived that yeah right and i intentionally use the term survived it doesn't mean that it was okay i mean to survive that um well like you say those stories last forever right the echoes of the the bad experiences get passed down to the next group of employees right yeah exactly and i mean you know when we when we try to put a number behind it i mean there was a great Lola Gallup report. I don't know if you had a chance to see it. It was just released at about 3 a.m. this morning here on the eastern coast. And, you know, they measured the cost of disengagement between employees as $8.9 trillion in American dollars. This is an American statistic. This is the United States.

They yeah, global, but that's $8.9 trillion. Right. I mean, that's good chunk of change due to just low engagement of staff. Right. And I mean, I laugh because it's these things that a lot of times we tend to overlook. We tend to think that we're too busy to care about such things, that we have other pressing concerns. Right, performance. And so the, but you know, the, it's laughable when you actually think about what does this mean for employee retention? What does this mean for the war for talent, for succession pipelines, for, you know, actual sustainability of an organization? so can you tell me like a story can you can we put this in a narrative format of something that you've experienced or that you've a client's experience maybe without naming names yeah you know um well I'll give more of one experience that was a little bit more personal to me. But I think it definitely resonated or would resonate with your viewers here. I remember one of my earlier jobs, you know, in my mid-20s, I was working for an office and the manager had unfortunately committed suicide. Oh, dear. And as you can imagine that that a shocked a lot of people um it was it was so soon for a lot of people and uh you know but in hindsight everyone kind of thought they saw the signs right um and? And it's exactly that, though. What do we do with that? What do we do with the signs?

How do we process our grief? How do we process our trauma? And just because we weren't, you know, his spouse and children doesn't mean that we also too didn't feel something. Right. Right. Yeah. And I'll never forget it when when you know the hr person at the time actually could not go into his office to collect his his things um so she asked me to do it and sure you know i i was able to to assist her in that but that again just shows that you know there are so many different aspects of one's job of one's life there are organizational stressors there are personal stressors we are all coming into the workplace with a past with a history that nobody knows about nobody needs to know about to be perfectly honest right that's your right to decide whether or not you want to share that or not um but it's looking at how can we manage the things we can manage what are our roles as leaders as individuals how do we show up and support one another what does this look like how do we maintain engagement?

So the organization was actually very forward for its time and, you know, ensured that there were counselors on site, you know, supporting anybody and provide free counseling for anyone who wanted to speak immediately. to speak immediately. But I also was fascinated by this line of work and by this corporate grief idea, because that also too, right there showed me how we, we have this almost toxic positivity around life in so many ways, right? We don't want to talk about grief. We don't want to talk about death. We don't want to talk about all these different aspects of life that is part of life yeah so if we live in a very sterilized way and approach such critical issues in a very sterilized way we get what we have right now so what would it look like if we actually not necessarily embrace it, but, you know, approach it with the normality in which it does exist? Yeah. Just pause for a minute to acknowledge that, acknowledge it and allow people to feel what they need to feel before then moving on, you know, to, you know, the next project or the next task or the next thing. We definitely don't take enough pauses.

And I think a lot of that is, you know, us humans, we're really good at like distracting ourselves, you know, from stuff, right. From stuff we don't want to think about something that's hard, something that, you know that you know difficult conversations difficult feelings um sort of like airbrushing everything in order to just yeah move on and i'm just as guilty of that as everybody else you know um yeah of course i mean we we all are right there are times when we're more capable of handling that sort of thing and there are times when we're more capable of handling that sort of thing. And there are times when we're not, right? So whether we call it energy conservation or audits or, you know, you're right. There, you know, we all have our good days, our bad days, all of that. That's fine. But it's also to acknowledging that part of life is that bad, unfortunately. So if we acknowledge that it does exist and it will always exist, what does it look like if we actually try to approach it in a very strategic way?

What does it look like if we say, okay, we know that this is a baseline within which we are willing to accept, you know, some level of, of grief. This is what we're going to do to ensure it doesn't get to critical levels. And even when, you know, it does happen, this is what we're going to do to ensure some level of, not just a safety measure, but, you know, ensuring that people are actually equipped and able to bounce back. For sure. Because that's really the critical part, right? Yeah. And toxic positivity is not a strategy. No. Had I done that, got the t-shirt, didn't work. Didn't work. No, it doesn't. Because, you know, emotions are going to bubble up no matter what right and the more you try to keep shoving them down and not acknowledging them the worse it gets exactly right and it also leads to the the disengagement that a lot of people feel yeah people can tell when you know if an organization says things like oh we're a family those are now very much red flags well I mean then there's everyone has a different definition of what a family like you know what is your experience in a family you know may not be someone else's experience so um and often isn't you know we talked about generational trauma so exactly yeah um okay so do you have like a framework developed yet or is that in the works on like what is like what is a what what belongs is under this umbrella of corporate grief. Is that starting to formulate itself?

Absolutely. And I won't go too, too, too much into it, because I would love for people to read the book when it comes out. Yeah, hopefully soon. But essentially, it is approaching it from multiple different lenses, right? So first, we we understand that there's the personal side of things and the organizational side of things, right? The personal side, we list it in a way to encourage individuals to acknowledge that that exists, right?

So when you're engaging with other humans, and you're stressed out about your life, remembering that they are also stressed out about their own, whether it be their marriage their kids their finances whatever the case may be um you know we we all have a million and one things going through our minds so that's just a right check box i acknowledge that the part that we focus that on is the organizational stuff right so it's that as we mentioned earlier you know the culture the people the leadership um you know what does what does that look like and now there is no one-size-fits-all approach either right because every organization is different and everyone has their idea of what good is, right?

Some of us have a very dark sense of humor. We're not going to be for everyone, right? Nope. But it's very much acknowledging that what might be okay for some won't be for others, and that's fine. But it's understanding what it means for your organization for yourself as a leader right what is the best standard for you your gold standard sorry i should say so then with that settled then we start looking at okay well what are your baseline measurements, right? Like, let's start putting some numbers into this. Are people, are your staff absolutely knackered of doing another survey because they don't see a value in it?

Okay, then we have to start with trust-building exercises, right? If they actually do trust that the surveys will be responsibly managed and utilized, then great. Let's start doing some surveys. Let's start actually assessing what this means as a baseline target. And then where do you want to go? Right. There are countless studies out there now and of just showing that if you engage staff and actually ask them directly what it is you want to see surprise surprise it could transform an organization right i think one of the best case examples was uh i believe it's pronounced and now the uh behemoth american uh medical insurance organization who at the early 2000s was losing a million dollars a day a little bit of money was losing a million dollars a day. A little bit of money. So, I mean, that was an industry where they really should not have. And they did exactly that, right?

The CEO at the time actually sat down and interviewed, surveyed the staff, got their feedback on all of that. And they saw that the staff were actually really engaged. They actually wanted to do their jobs well. What caused the disengagement were other things that made the staff feel like they weren't being listened to, that they weren't being valued, all those different things. So even something as simple as saying, you know, staff disengagement, okay, well, what is the actual source of that? staff disengagement. Okay. Well, what is the actual source of that? Yeah. Right. So it's very much multifaceted, but it is a way of understanding all the complexities within a corporation, within performance measurements, as well as organizational goals, outcomes and finances, you know, putting the dollars and cents down into it and approaching it from that lens. Okay. So, so it sounds like a little bit of a manual. Does that sound about right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's, a working title for the book is a corporate manual. That's cool. Yeah. So I'm picking up what you're putting down, obviously.

So you're actually wanting to make this like a practical guide? Yes, very much a practical guide. And there will be online modules as well available to actually help work through the stuff. So the book will act more of like a primer, let's say. And then the online modules will provide individuals opportunities to actually think through and work through the different scenarios and apply it within their unique context. And then there is also the retreat in Scotland as well, in September. Yes, that's right. Okay, so give me an update on the retreat. So the retreat is for executives, senior leadership, team members, and really looking at, you know, getting 15 individuals in a room, and working through their unique problems. So there are going to be an amazing assortment of speakers out there as well. Everything from the likes of James Elliott, who actually created the mental resiliency program for the British military.

Myself, obviously talking about corporate grief. My co-host for the event, Jody Wilding, looking at things like mindfulness, to other individuals who will be looking at topics such as emotional intelligence, tackling or overcoming resistance in change management, you know, really getting buy-in of individuals, mixture of everything from corporate to military and up and down and all around. That's very cool. I've looked at your speakers and they seem very impressive. And I love the direction of this because I'm like, why doesn't anyone realize we're at war here? Honestly, like it's crazy to me. Like we have, there's so many, so many like existential problems right now in the world. Like we need to put our armor on a little bit, you know, like look at like, seriously, like it's, it's, you know, if we're going to show our soft underbelly. Yeah. You know what I mean? If we're going to expose ourselves and be vulnerable, we also, we have to find the inner fortitude to be able to do that. Right. To me, that's like, that's essential for leaders today, isn't it? I cannot agree more. I mean, it's, it's absolutely essential.

And, you know, even when we use certain terms, it's funny how two different people will have a different understanding of that term. Like war, you mean? War, but, you know, A little more, but, you know, even to terms such as resiliency. Yeah. Does resiliency mean shut up and do the work? You know, stiff upper lip it? Or does resiliency actually mean, you know, finding strategies to actually be sustainable? Right. Yeah. Or vulnerability. It's another one. And, you know, again, how much vulnerability do people want to express? Right.

What does it mean to be vulnerable? Right. And even these types of conversations creates that tension even between different generations, as we see, right? How much of yourself are you meant to be showing in the workplace? Yep. And in different given situations, you know, um, even within the workplace, we can't paint it with a broad brush. There's exactly micro cultures. There's relationships you have. There's, you know, you're going to have different relationships with different people, different scenarios, um, and being adaptable, right? This is the, probably the order of the day, I would think. Absolutely. There's, there are massive nuances between every location, whether it's cultural, linguistic, whatever the case may be. I mean, these sorts of things really need to be finally discussed, right? So how do you differentiate your work?

So you're taking a very different angle towards this than other folks who are talking about, you know, performance, or wellness, or, you know, agility, like, tell me a little bit about like the why you decided to take this angle I take this angle because I feel like I I know that that grief response quite well given my my professional background and you know the the kinds of uh roles I've I've taken. So that has luckily and academically as well has given me a really good foundation to understand human behavior in very nuanced ways. Combined with coaching individuals from some of the largest layoffs that we've seen, you know, making front page news by the tens, by the dozens, I should say it, you know, it really has enabled me to see what works and what doesn't. So when people come back to you and say, wow, you know, that was far more transformative than I actually thought possible.

And, you know, this is what I was actually able to do now with my life and my career it is incredibly rewarding and it feels like okay so there's definitely something in this yeah right and oddly enough it just starts with actually hearing people where they're at understanding that grief trauma all of that it's not linear it's very much cyclical and so understanding that a person could be very much okay one day yeah but they won't be the next and that's okay that's part of this process. And I mean, grief is one of the most profound emotions that we can feel as human beings. And it sticks around probably the longest, I would think as well. I don't know a lot about grief from a, you know, behavioral perspective, but that's how it's felt with me from a personal perspective. Absolutely. Right. And so it's understanding do do they have the supports and strategies to overcome it or does it become complex grief so complex grief is more of when it does linger um in a way right that is no longer helpful i'm not saying that grief in and of itself is helpful but as you can imagine um when the event is fresh, obviously it's going to still be a very raw wound. The question then becomes, you know, as it grows, are we looking at complex grief within organizations? What does that mean for their teams?

Right. Well, this is very valuable work that you're doing and research that you're doing and writing that you're doing and thinking that you're doing and all the actions that are coming from this. So I really, hopefully we can have you on back on the show, maybe this fall, winter, and you can talk about like the evolution of this project.

I would love, I think hopefully everyone would love to hear more about that thank you yeah it's uh it's fascinating work and it's really rewarding to also see the similarities even between different sectors right so this is why i chose this this kind of work um because at the end of the day we're all humans and for the most part our behaviors are pretty much predictable regardless of sector there's some nuances for sure but if we're looking at these larger systemic based issues and yeah it's we're all still humans we all still operate the same way our brains still operate the same way you know we still fire off the same chemicals the same way yeah and i can definitely see having this having even more of an impact in certain sectors for example i know that folks who work for different government agencies working on reconciliation are going through a lot of that grief and trauma work they have you know because it brings up so many feelings having to deal with you know missing and murdered indigenous women and children.

It's awful, awful, awful. I can only imagine the kind of feelings that, you know, that would surface in that line of business. Right. Yes. And great work that they do, but so difficult. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. But you know, that that grief and trauma also extends to even bankers, right? So even if we're looking at people with mass layoffs from banking, and not to, you know, belittle any profession or anything like that, right? Or say that one is exactly the same or akin to the other obviously they're they're massive nuances um but the range of experiences uh or emotions that we express and the way they they are manifested are are very similar and it's kind of like that that old saying um i have no idea where it came from but you know thieves don't need to identify each other when they cross at night. You know, a person who has gone through grief, if you have as well, you understand that intrinsically.

Yeah. I mean, every single person on the planet will go through it at some point. Yes. Yeah. So there's no point trying to hide around it. But actually trying to understand what can we do with it now? Or what are we going to do to actually overcome it? Yeah. Awesome. Or support each other through it probably too, right? Exactly. Well, yeah, exactly.

And you know, understanding too, that it's not you know a leader's role to take on the psychological burden or therapeutic role or anything like that right and i think that's another distinction that needs to be made um they are also sad they are also hurting right um it's not easy to be laying off that many people and the number of times i've interviewed people who've done mass layoffs they really struggle no doubt yeah right uh it's not easy on anyone obviously the person losing their their livelihood is going to take it very poorly obviously um but it's not a pleasant situation for anyone.

No, no. And so there are a lot of emotions attached to it. You know, it's especially for a lot of professionals. It's how they identify themselves. It's their ego. It's their sense of self. It's their identity. It is. It's a number of different things. Yeah. So many things to think about. Thanks for joining me, Eleanor. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Did you have any final words or words of wisdom or thoughts that you wanted to share before we sign off? Well, you know, thank you very much for having me here. And if anyone's interested in learning more or understanding how corporate grief could better assist them and their organization through changes, I mean, I also kind of view this as an evolution of change management practices and best practices.

So if this is something that interests them, yeah, please do reach out, youthscoaching.com. Fantastic.

Thank you.

Thank you. interest them um yeah please do reach out eavescoaching.com

Fantastic

Thank you

Thank you

Don't forget to stay weird stay wonderful and don't stay out of trouble!

Intro:

The coach may not play the game, but the coach inspires and motivates the players to play the best game possible! Join our discussion with leadership coach and entrepeneur Garen Jemian on how to implement a successful coaching culture in your workplace to inspire your employees.

Stay in touch:

https://ca.linkedin.com/in/garenjemian

Website:

https://www.inspireship.com/

Script:

To put on the coach's mindset is to let the other person have the dopamine hit.

You need to have more influence so you can share this with the world.

It takes a lot of time and energy and prioritization to do something that's a long game rather than a short game.

Coaching is where one person focuses their time and energy and presence on helping another one achieve their outcomes.

Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose. And I'm so happy right now to be joined by my very good friend, Garen Jemian, who I feel like I haven't seen your face for months because you've been MIA. You've been working. What's that about? Garen, continue. What were you going to say? Nothing. continue what were you gonna say nothing nothing um garen is a phenomenal leadership coach highly experienced working with all different sectors public and private sector he's a favorite in the public sector in the government of canada you know where he's doing some pretty amazing work uh that i wish you know we could we could talk about but apparently we're not allowed to talk about some things. So it's top secret. And what else do I need to say about you? You're the author of Happy People Work Harder. You are the founder of Inspireship, which is a coaching and consulting firm in Montreal. And you're just an awesome person. Hi, Garen.

I'm going to hire you for my intros forever. Okay, good. From now on. Consider it done. That's so amazing. And yet, you're the one wearing a shirt that actually is so inspiring that impacts society and people. We're trained to help. um i know we're going to talk about something today and i i kind of wish we were talking about your project instead but i'll pass that over to you well you're just going to have to start a podcast then so that i can come on your podcast and talk about it we have one it's called inspire talk it's an open podcast where we actually have um participants interacting with the dialogue. So it's kind of we'll definitely have you on board in the next couple of months. Oh, I am totally there. You know, I'm there with bells on. I will literally bring bells and a cowboy hat. So we are talking today about building a coaching culture. And I know in the last conversation that we had in the last season, because this is the second time now that you've been on the podcast, I know we touched on it just a little bit. But this is something that's so important to both of us.

So I think it's awesome that we're going to give it a lot of attention. I'd love to just start by like, what is your definition of a coaching culture and tell me about one or two of the challenges or the opportunities that you see here that you've worked within in terms of the businesses you've worked for can i start by telling you how i discovered the concept and and we just go there because as you were talking i'm like how did i get into this mess so i used to i used to uh own and operate a nightclub in downtown montreal and that's as far as i'll go in talking about that but um some peers in the industry and i would have this uh this competition of who could be the best boss ever and so we're a bunch of nightclub owners and we get together and we shoot the breeze and we're like, you know, who's more liked? Who's more effective and all that stuff. And we're just trying to be the best boss ever. And these are some pretty renowned business owners in Montreal.

And so I went on this quest and I tried everything. And mostly I was trying to be the most liked, the nicest person, the most generous, the most flexible, the most understanding. the most generous, the most flexible, the most understanding. And the problem is we weren't getting out. My turnover was still high. My turnover was so high when I would just meet people. I wouldn't even want to get to know them because they'd be gone in less than a month. I'm like, what am I doing wrong? And of course, inherently the industry has high turnover, but it just wasn't good enough for me. So eventually, I went to university, studied coaching, came out, and I kind of saw something there that I didn't figure out as a leader. And so I kind of felt like I was always coaching, but I didn't know what I was doing or why.

So I went to study the methodology and understanding what it actually meant so that's kind of what got me started and so i ended up selling my shares i i start getting into coaching and i start working with some organizations and every leader starts asking me the same question which is how do i motivate people yeah i was like how do you motivate people so then i go on this next quest of how you motivate people and and the book came out so very soon after I realized that we need to be teaching coaching competencies and coaching mindset to every leader in every organization in our country ASAP yes and I'd like to make a distinction there's a coaching mindset and there's coaching competencies. You don't need to be a coach to have a coach's mindset. Correct. Yes. Right.

The being of the coach is completely different from, you know, getting two, three thousand hours and becoming a masterful coach. You can just have the coach's mindset. Yeah. And so that's tough enough, though. It's huge. That's pretty tough. It's a coach's mindset. There you go. Done. pretty tough. It's the coach's mindset. There you go. Done. It is. It is. And so I believe that if you can equip all your leaders with some of those competencies of getting out of the way, believing in the best of everyone within your team, understanding how people interact, how people behave, how the psychological impacts of humans in the workplace, understanding how you can set better objectives that intrinsically motivate employees to get them growing in a direction of desirability and truly understanding how to maximize your team's potential. Imagine what an impact that does.

And we tend to think that it's for the employees. It's not. I'm here to tell you my job is to help my clients and my clients are the leaders. When we teach this stuff, it's to help life better for the leaders. Imagine if you had to work less hard, you can empower people. They became more autonomous, more creative, more accountable. You'd have to put in probably a bit less work. You could delegate better. What else? Hang on. You can trust people more. Yeah. Imagine you could be less reactive and more strategic more often. Yeah. It sounds like a lot of promises, but I've been working in this space for almost 10 years now.

And I can tell you, it's not. It's not magic, but it's also not like woo woo. It's not, you know, this is like real, real shit. It is, but it takes a lot of time and energy and prioritization to do something that's a long game rather than a short game. Yeah. And it's counterintuitive in a lot of ways. Yeah. Yeah. It's really hard to do that. Oh yeah. And you have to let go of game. Yeah. And it's counterintuitive in a lot of ways. Yeah. Yeah. It's really hard to do that. Oh yeah. And you have to let go of control. Well, I like that. I like being a little out of control. Yeah. Not, not when you have like really stringy, stingy KPIs and you gotta deliver results and you have to find the balance between delivering results and being hands off. Yeah, for sure.

Yep. You have to find the balance between delivering results and being hands-off. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. But there's also like the middle path, which is the coaching. You know, it's not like it's those two. Those are the two spectrums, right? There's a third way, and that is the coaching culture. Yeah. Yeah. So how would you define the coaching culture then? Let's go there. Other than obviously the skills of the coach, how does that reflect amongst the team? I'm going to, I'm going to Kung Fu this one and ask you, how do we define the word culture?

Oh yeah. How do I define the word culture? Well, I mean, it's, it's the sum of all of the artifacts, behaviors, you know, desires, motivations, skills, intentions, you know, of a group of people. And we're going to get into this later, though, and it doesn't have to be the whole organization. That. Yeah. I know I'm supposed to be doing a lot of the talking but i haven't with culture i have more questions than answers and the one thing i say is like whenever i hear people talking about how we change culture and it's like it's just like it's so methodical i call bs totally i call bs and i get paid for this stuff and i show up and the first thing i say is it it's it's so hyper complex at best we're trying to solve for this yeah and then hopefully if and the first thing i say is it it's it's so hyper complex at best we're trying to solve for this yeah and then hopefully if you solve for a lot of things you look at something as a whole consistency consistently and say i like this right yeah and i should have mentioned also like systems processes governance like that's all wrapped into it as well yeah of course and each one takes what an aeon to solve for so um so how do we define culture how we work and how we behave and interact with each other okay yeah if you want to keep it simple sure uh yeah i mean no no i mean definitely i i feel that it's something more than that though too right it's like the energy of a place um it's what it feels like how do you measure the energy um I mean you can only mention measure it through the feelings of the people that are on the team yeah and the problem is that people have lives so depending on what's going on in their lives you can have the best culture and if someone's just not feeling it because something really wrong happened at home that morning, that'll impact culture.

So it's like it's the employees and their families and the environment and the country and the world all impacting this in this infinite matrix. Yeah. And so how do we define the coaching culture then? What is unique about something that we would call a coaching culture i would start by defining what coaching is okay and i and you know me erin i'm like i like things so simple so simple so if i were to like hyper simplify this and bring it down to the common denominator i'd say coaching is where one person focuses their time and energy and presence on helping another one achieve their outcomes okay yeah i like to simplify that way right um and so a coaching culture and i think achieving that person's outcomes needs to be like emphasized. So it's not like your agenda. It's their agenda. Ideally. Yeah. Ideally.

Organizations do set objectives and expectations. So sometimes the leaders have to set the objectives, but at least we give the leeway to the employee to select how. Exactly. If they can't choose the what, at least let them choose the how and give them the time and space to figure out what's best for them um so coaching for me is that coaching is also um it's about believing in other people's potentials it's about stepping out of the way it's about relinquishing your ego as a leader. It's about putting the spotlight on someone else. It's about trust. Yeah, all that stuff. So a coaching culture for me would be, what if all the leaders within an organization kind of ran with that MO? Yeah. We always talk about like putting the hat on right we have the coach hat as a manager you may have a coach hat you have a leader hat you have a boss hat sometimes right how does the coaching culture kind of integrate these different personas that you might have as a manager or a leader, do you think? Or can it? I would start with, yeah. So I'm just going to dig into some of my material in my brain.

So we'll do two things. One, we'll start with, we'll do three things. One, start defining what leadership is and building some self-awareness. Then we'll dig into the hats. So then you've got the manager the leader the mentor yeah the coach and most people think that if you'll ask you you leaders out there you're listening to this and i want you to think on a scale of one to ten how much of a coach are you and you're going to give yourself a score but what i've learned is most leaders who think that they've got a coaching stall or actually have a mentoring style yes and there's a distinction there mentoring versus coaching i don't know if we should dig into this now but once you've got that aside then you can dig into something else like leadership styles yeah and if if you if you subscribe to goldman six coaching is one of the leadership styles which whatever um so you've got what you've got the visionary the pace setter you've got the affiliative democratic um you've got the this is from daniel gulman interesting you've got the coaching so it's innovative in there command and control okay so the boss interesting yeah so something happens is by creating the distinctions of, you know, what style of leadership comes out with you by default and then which hats you're putting on and when and why.

Now the leaders are starting to understand what coaching is and isn't and what everything else is. And they start seeing the distribution or at least the, you know, how often they choose what style and why. Right. often they choose what style and why. Right. And then we'll go into realizing that a lot of people in stressful situations will tend to gravitate towards the command and control style. And then I'll ask them, why do you think that is? And it turns out that command and control is so effective that when it's time and you pull out, you know, your biceps and say, do as I tell you because I said so, and you really pull out your authority, it's very effective, especially during times of crisis. And then as the leader, you're like, that worked. And it was really easy. And so it's easy to fall into the trap of going into command and control because of how effective it was the first time and the second time.

It's just eventually that edge blunts and you start losing your people. And so we need to get them to realize that command and control is good during certain times of crisis when time crunch is happening. But you got to kind of spread it out. You can use it perhaps maybe 5, 10% of the time, but then the rest of the time you might want to lay off, lay off the trigger a little bit. Well, and it strikes me that if your people are constantly coming to you for guidance and they can't make their own decisions and they don't know, you know, how to influence upward, right? Like how to help you make decisions. And you have to, you feel like you have to use that command and control. You might just be living in survival mode a little too much as a company. If it's the situation, that's just a downward spiral to burnout. I mean, go down that path. So if your employees keep coming to you for, with their questions, why are they, why is this happening? Why do you have to be the number one decision maker in the company? Have you set it up like that? Maybe that, and, and, and someone gave it away to me.

Uh, recently we were talking about, um, just coaching in my own personal coaching development. We were trying to figure out the posture of the coach. What's our role, you know, and why a coach shouldn't give the answer, but always struggles not to write. Like you want to give the answer to something. And it turns out that he or she who finds the answer first gets the dopamine hit. Oh, interesting. You feel good about yourself because you solve the problem. Oh, interesting. You feel good about yourself because you solved the problem. And to put on the coach's mindset is to let the other person have the dopamine hit. Yeah. You don't need to be the hero. I actually, when I did my coaching program, I think that was the most transformative thing for me. And I know we, you and I have talked about this once or twice before. But it was knowing that I didn't have to be that person anymore. I didn't have to shoulder that load because for me it was, it's exhausting, right?

It's exhausting having to make the decisions. It's exhausting having to be the one who, you know, has to know the answers to everything. Like, yes, maybe there is a dopamine hit, but it's countered by that the energy expenditure how much energy it takes so um for me the most transformative thing was knowing that i didn't have to have all the answers all i had to do is ask the right questions and and it was the word have to yeah as a coach and but if if you're a manager do you feel like you have to or there's a part of you that feels validated when you when you can and so you want to because if you don't have the answer man let me check it out and leaders define their value yeah by their by their expertise so you'll get promoted to team lead why because you're the best at what you do and the team gets promoted to manager why usually because of their competence their their hard skills not because of their leadership competencies not because of their soft skills but because of their hard skills so they're graded by how good they are at their job and now all of a sudden you're at management level or director level and honestly, sometimes at VP level and sometimes at C-suite level where they're still measuring their worth by their competence. Yeah. And it's not.

Goldsmith's book, What Got You Here Won't Get You There. Very similar. You got to level up. You got to let go of the fact that you have to be great at something, especially in tech, when you always have to be up to speed with the newest tech that's coming out. And oftentimes I'll get leaders being promoted to the director level and beyond in tech. And they're told to let go of the continuous learning and focus more on leadership and management. And they're saying, well, once I stop learning, I become irrelevant. Right. So your identity, actually, your whole identity has to change. Right. So if I'm, yeah, if I'm like, you know, my entire career to date, I have been validated, I've been promoted, and I've been, you know, I've been, I've been given accolades for being a technical expert. Now, you're telling me that I'm going to be measured by a whole different set of criteria. Like, that's crazy to me. That's such a crazy shift. Can you tell me about one of the companies that you work with, obviously don't mention any names necessarily, but that you've supported through this transition? Yeah. And that's what I love and hate about what it is that we do. I'm like the most private public figure as in the work I do is, um, I get to work with so many people, but I can't really announce any of the things that I do. So there's not, there's very little documentation.

Uh, so listeners and watchers out there, you're just going to have to trust me, but don't whatever. so having said that, I know all the details. Yeah. So, so, so repeat that question with regards to one of my clients. We're talking about the coaching culture. Yeah. How did you help them navigate or, you know, maybe they're navigating because this is not like a one-time deal, right? This is the process between, you know, that technical mindset to that leader mindset that we're talking about and creating the coaching culture through the process. Tell me a story. Once upon a time. Yeah. So I'll preface it with this. Sometimes we build a coaching culture intentionally, transparently, and very tactically. And sometimes I do it inconspicuously. As in, on this side of the spectrum, you've got full buy-in from the CEO all the way down. And the entire organization is going to get a crash course. Like we're talking like super crash course, like nine hours, maybe 12 of like coaching, training and, and, and workshopping over, let's say a two month period. And everyone's kind of speaking the same language. And then from there we'll, we'll use the 70, 20, 10 models. So training workshops.

And then after that, we go to level two, which is group coaching, right? Having mastermind chats of challenges that they might be having. And lastly, individual support. So how do we make sure each person gets to where they need to be? That's on the super fun, amazing side of what we do because you can create an entire program and bring in experienced coaches and mentors guiding these leaders through the process okay but you don't have to be that intentional and invest that much i mean you should but whatever i think you should yeah of course you should uh but you don't have to to still get some of the benefits for instance let's see you're a small company you've got 20 leaders and you decide to provide leadership coaching to each of the 20 leaders without even having the training and the development stuff but they're just going through individual coaching well to be coached is a huge transformational experience yes and as you're being coached, you sort of, it kind of, you, you sponge up some of what's going on. You start not, I won't say imitating, but emulating what the coach is doing with you to then using those same questioning and presence and active listening and all that stuff. You automatically start doing it with someone else without knowing it.

Yeah, that's true. all that stuff, you automatically start doing it with someone else without knowing it. Yeah, that's true. So that's kind of where I say it's like, however you want to attack the coaching culture piece, as soon as you start introducing external resources, coaches or facilitators or both, you start having those positive impacts. Yeah. And I would caveat that these are ICF certified coaches or coaches following ICF competencies, the International Coach Federation competencies, because there's lots of people who call themselves coaches out there that don't really follow the same methodology or frameworks.

So I think it's, you know, it's not the same kind of leadership that you're going to get from other types of coaches in terms of leading by example. That's the sad thing. Yeah. I believe in coaching so much. I mean, it's what I do. Yeah. But even calling myself a coach, I will do it so sparingly. Yeah, me too. It's kind of like rather than saying I am a coach, I'll say I use coaching as one of my skill sets to achieve the outcome. 100%. Yes. Right. Yeah. And I use that to help differentiate myself just a little bit, just to say that it's not my only focus. Yeah. It's kind of the mindset is there for sure. Yep. But that coaching, when you wear that coaching hat, you know that you're following those ICF competencies. A hundred percent. Yes. A hundred percent. The client doesn't know it, you know that you're following those ICF competencies. A hundred percent. Yes. A hundred percent. The client doesn't know it, you know it. Well, and you can sometimes, if, you know, sometimes I will say, I'm going to put my coaching hat on here, you know, it depends on what they've come to me for. Sometimes they come to me for coaching. So they're expecting more coaching than anything else.

Other times they're, you know, they're going to come to me for advisory services, um, or mentorship. And then, you know, sometimes I will just throw on my couching hat every now and then, you know, um, so ICF quiz for you there, which one of the competencies do we need to, to introduce right off the get go to make sure that we're all on the same page? Uh, building a contract. Yeah yeah so setting clear agreements yeah let's coaching what it isn't which hats i can use how these sessions are gonna go um way to go garen what yeah quiz being icf you know absolutely so so if they don't know what coaching is how do you how do you it's like kind of like giving them a card telling them how everything works totally yeah and sometimes my client will come and be like i don't need coach garren today i was like okay yeah i'm like okay which which coach do you know which which version of me do you need they're like i need mentor friend and uh and boss i need the boss sometimes they're just like i just need you to listen to me because i just i just need to let something off my chest today. Totally. Yeah. And that's the agreement. I'm like, fine. So for that moment, I'll just use some of the ICF competencies, which is intimacy, trust, full presence, caring and scrap everything else. And I'll just be there. And if there's an opportunity to coach, I will. And if, and if the person doesn't want or need to be coached that day, then I'll always serve my client before I serve anything else. Yeah.

And that's what being a coach really is. That's what following the ICF coaching competencies and the coaching philosophy really is, you know? So at the end of the day, it's extremely client focused or customer focused or, you know, whatever you want to call it. It's like leadership 101. Person focused. Give a give a hoot give a hoot we can say shit on this podcast can we but nothing worse than that when i'm when i meet with people and i'm like it's like a leadership um intro class i'll be like, hmm. Just like the first slide will just be like, give a shit. Yeah. If you don't care about people, just be a manager and just try not to manage people. Just be like a one-person manager managing processes and systems. Okay, yes. Okay, yes, exactly. Don't be a people manager. I was going to say, if you're managing people, you have to care. You have to care about them. I'm sorry. Okay. Yes, exactly.

Don't be a people manager. I was going to say like, if you're managing people, you have to care. Like you have to care about them. I'm sorry. Okay. And do you think we live in a society where a hundred percent of managers care about people? No, I mean, no, but they ought to. Yeah, they ought to. That's why it's the public service announcement. If you don't care, leave. Well, it was, I think it was Margaret Van Amelsvoort, who's a, one of the, one of our amazing coaches and mentors who I worked with in a previous role. And she's from the government of Canada, or was before she retired. And she's the one who told me that people managers should be spending 50% of their time managing people. And I was like, okay. And I, you know what, I started using that in conversations because I was in business development. And I thought this was like, you know, management slash leadership 101, that you should be spending a lot of time, the majority of, or at least half of your time, actually actively managing, supporting, serving, guiding, teaching, mentoring your people, right? Directing sometimes, whatever, all of those things. And I was shocked to hear that that was actually like almost universally untrue in the people that I spoke with. Right. And what do we call those? I call them, I'm so mean. I do it with a smile. So I'll talk to leaders who are just like very hands-on. Yeah. And, you know, they're having like a bilat, like one-on-one, like once a month or every two months. And I said, yeah, yeah.

Oh, yeah. There are some that have like four know or one-on-ones a year anyway i say and then i i talked to him about how they got promoted and how competency becomes key and how trust and all that stuff happens yada yada but i say is it not possible that you're just a truly high functioning individual contributor that has more responsibilities than others totally and they're like fuck i think that's it yeah and it happens a lot so building a coaching culture is getting them to think differently it's the horizontal versus vertical development isn't it so what you know versus how you think so context versus skill yeah for sure yeah context and that's the thing it's like context the vertical development can only be achieved through um through gaining knowledge and in the systems like so the system systemic knowledge and your systemic knowledge can only be gained really through people you know um It's the best way to learn. It's the best way to learn, build context within an organization.

I know there are certain companies now, it's kind of a movement, I think, out of the IT sector in the United States, where they're starting to build talent management ecosystems where the specialist can make as much money as a manager, like a technical expert can make as much money as a manager without having to be a manager. So it used to be like, if you wanted to break the glass ceiling or whatever, in terms of, you know, your, your compensation, you would have to become a manager. That's starting to no longer be the case now, which is really smart. Do you feel that there's going to be um a decline in people wanting to go into management i would assume so yeah i think there are a lot of people that just don't want to be managers but they want to make more money for sure and you and you ask those people like why are you doing this and if you dig enough money money money's there, but you're like, okay, so you've gone into a leadership role. You, you don't feel like you have natural leadership competencies. You don't feel like you have natural leadership traits, skills, and all of those characteristics, but it comes with the money. from the very core into becoming a leader, the organizations kind of like, you know, sponsoring this, like we believe in this person. I'm like, dude, you're so far from where you want to be. Why do you want to do this? And eventually they're like, I just wish I can just focus on like, and they're very like technically skilled people. Like, why are you doing this? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So can we, can we even, is it, is it worthless to try to create a coaching culture or to transform someone from a technical expert to like a real leader without desire? Is that even remotely possible without desire, without desire? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. So a little plug here. So my A7 model. Right.

So I follow literally seven words with that start with the letter A. And it used to be A5 for the record, right? Oh yeah, it's A7. I had to add the seventh one, the seven, because I had, I'll get to it. So the first one was awareness, which, and they're all interchangeable, of course, but awareness, I now know. But attitude, that's the second piece. And attitude could be like our positioning our posture but also our desire so if if you learn something like aka 99.99 percent of horrible bosses don't know it zero percent of people come to me like garen help i suck said no one right and those who need it the most want it the least. I'll say that again. If anyone's listening, those who need coaching the most want it the least. For sure. If you want to know who needs coaching, watch anyone who's resisting or turning their backs to it. Almost every leader who comes to me to get coaching for their team.

And I'm like, are you taking coaching? No, I don't need it right i'll bet you what your red flag which percentage of your clients that like keep wanting more and more and more and you're like dude i wish you were my leader like like you don't need more coaching they're like i want to be better i was like i love you no we need to get you a more important job then you need to have more influence so you can share this with the world yeah exactly that yeah yeah i lost your first question hang on i think my question that you didn't answer from like 30 minutes ago was to give me an example of a company that you worked with okay so um the best example that i'll tell you is you go into an organization and from the very top, you get the buy-in. From the very top, you've got, and this happened more than once, in different sectors where, you know, one or more member of the C-suite shows up before I talk and they do the intro.

And they tell you why coaching is so important and they tell you how coaching changed their lives and they tell you how coaching helped them get to the c-suite and then they're like and ladies and gentlemen garen i was like sweet that's the best intro ever and we're talking like sometimes multinationals sometimes you know billion dollar corporations and that guy's introducing coaching and you're like, maybe I shouldn't have worn the Hawaiian shirt today. But that's the idea. So you get the full buy in. And just with that, you ask me the sorry and the part I'm going to connect it with. You ask me if if there's no desire, can you get it? Oh, yeah. And the second in a7 is the attitude well when you get your bosses bosses bosses bosses boss who runs the company come up and telling you who you know your manager and the c-suites coming up to you and saying this is important how do you think that impacts your awareness and your attitude oh yeah you sit up you look around you pay attention and yeah their endorsements everything yeah so the ceo or the c-suite showed up and and told you this is important yeah they literally start sitting more straight in their chairs their computers get closed their phones are tucked away they grab their pens they take the caps off their body language changes for the duration of the program so you know it's like it's not even just building a coaching culture i think you're talking about culture period when it's endorsed from the very top yeah everyone follows but if it's a do as i say not as i do as i yeah do as i say not as i do, as I, yeah, do as I say, not as I do, all of a sudden our message becomes not as important because the big boss ain't doing it. Yeah. So what do we do in a case where the boss kind of sucks and won't endorse, you know, they won't endorse it.

The CEO, the top person won't endorse something that you believe is really important in culture changing. Yeah. Are you asking me how my sales pitches go i mean if you want to go there i i i'm i'm so brutal like i wouldn't hire me but they weren't going to hire me anyways so i'll just call out what i see in the moment right yeah i'll literally call them out i'll say you're a do as i say not as i do kind of guy you don't want this for yourself you're asking me what i can do for your organization i kind of feel like it's like going to a dentist and saying what can you do for me like you don't do that right and i'll never go into a meeting selling code you've seen me aaron i don't sell you don't want it i don't care why would i want to sell something to. You don't want it. I don't care. Why would I want to sell something to someone who doesn't want it? Yeah. Why? Trust me. It ain't for the money. There's nothing worse than showing up and having to earn your keep for something someone doesn't want. So even if you're charging almost nothing, they still won't see the value in it. Of course. Yeah.

So so so that's how my sales pitches go what if you were talking to like a director who really wanted it you know so they really want it they have a budget but they know that their ceo is never gonna come down and talk you know like you know they're they know that the ceo won't endorse it or whatever um but they will. And they're passionate about it. How do you feel about that? That happens at least, I want to say 50% of the time. Yeah. And what I say to that is, it's the ripple effect. If you can infiltrate an organization with one department, that's the subculture piece. What if we can make this department kick ass so much that the entire organization looks and says, what are they doing? Right. So I, I like that one. It's kind of like, um, like, like infiltrating. It's very tactical. I'm like, watch us transform this department.

Watch us transform this team. Watch us transform the leadership within this team and If you can if you can get enough of buying and the results that you're looking for there You know within the organization. It's kind of like a vaccine and you know Any anti-vaxxers there, you know, it's like it's like the the the coaching the the coaching vaccine how's that yeah but that's the idea it's yes yes so what do you do with that you let them know that you can impact an organization as high as the glass ceiling is and that often happens um i work with many organizations where you know the slt the senior leadership will okay a budget for this kind of stuff yeah and then you'll have one or two leaders will opt for it and they make it very like it's not for everyone very small budgets huge companies tiny budgets and you can only work with like senior directors or vps of like this massive organization like seriously that's your budget you have a three thousand dollar budget for this year to help leaders grow sure um so you help this one leader and your job as a coach is to help this leader so much Your job as a coach is to help this leader so much that it transforms the reality. Yes. Your job is to just be the best darn coach you can be. And I'll tell you what happens is that that one leader goes back and tells their friends of what coaching did. And then a few months later, I'll get a call back from HR saying, we got another one and another one and another one. And so that first leader grows to three, four, five, six leaders within an organization working with. It takes time.

Like there are some organizations I've been with for several years and you know, words getting around and it takes super long, but I, I like to believe that over time with small incremental, you know, impacts, you're going to get to a point where you'll be like, why aren't we doing this for everyone? There absolutely will be a time. How do you, um, how do you influence the, you know, your, you know, your primary contact in terms of like how um how they can or how you could potentially support them in building a coaching culture not just coaching individuals um i think there are opportunities and conversations to talk about there are opportunities and conversations to talk about like sparks moments of magic where you can be like see what we did here what if we had more of that and and you know it rarely has to come from me it's usually them saying i wish we can just do this with the whole organization. I'll get the HR. I've had more than one HR director come to me and be like, please talk to my CEO. He's a monster.

And I'll say he because they were all he's. But they're like, please help. Please come and speak your truth. And honestly, I've had 0% success when the HR rep is calling SOS and I got to come in and do a sales pitch for that. It won't work. But what it means is that those who have the awareness and the desire, you don't need to sell to them. You're already, it's kind of like saying I have a cavity. It's like the dentist hasn't, doesn't have to sell you his services or their services. It just seems like, would you like me to solve your toothache?

Um, and so I rarely go in and say, uh, in saying that these might be some pain points and these are some things I can solve for you. I feel like the awareness is already there societally. I feel like coaching has exploded since 2018, 2019. And if you're great at what you do in the organizations, awake enough and internally value it enough to allocate some money to it and time and energy and advocate um become ambassadors of that positive change then okay i don't really have to do more than that so the grassroots culture change it sounds like is probably the most effective then yeah yeah yeah grassroots ideas especially if you have that glass ceiling that you're talking about yeah yeah yes yeah it may have to be but correct me if i'm wrong i feel like there's been such a huge burst with regards to culture in organizations with regards to toxic management with regards to coaching and its positive impacts the human side of of business and how it impacts the results positively i like to believe that most ce CEOs are well aware of coaching and it's possible and it's positive outcomes. I just don't know if I remember the part where I said those who wanted, wanted the least needed the most. Yeah.

It's about the, it's the self-awareness piece. I think CEOs, if you're listening, I don't think you understand yourself and your organization well enough. Sometimes, especially when what you think, but what other people say are two different things. Yeah. So I'll, I'll talk to the CEO and the, and it's, it's about external self-awareness. So internal self-awareness, how well I understand myself external, how well I understand how other people perceive me. Right. So both awarenesses I think might be off so the ceo might think we don't have a problem or at least not not a deeply rooted one and so we might think it might have to be topical it might be an ego thing it might be the survival i think in a lot of cases was that i think it's i think it's survival in a lot of cases you know survival of the ego survival of the company um you know a lot of people especially ceos don't really want to admit what's really going on under the hood because that means that they have to acknowledge it um and then probably take some kind of action towards it so yeah aren't we now coming close to um we've had this chat about umism, validation, I'm good enough. But if I'm a CEO, and I have to admit that I'm flawed, or I'm not perfect, what happened? Yeah. It's like, it's coming really close to imposter syndrome. But this is exactly what a coaching culture helps deconstruct, right? It helps us feel safe to learn, my God, like we are whole people. We are each perfectly imperfect, right?

And, you know, I think having a coaching culture just helps us really understand that like, I'm whole, or I could be, you are too, right? And what are we going to do together now, now that we've established that we're both imperfect, you know, how do we move forward? Uh, I, I saw, I saw a celebrity wear a t-shirt. I like, I just said flawed human. Right. And, um, I had told you, I went through like two years of rehab of, uh, like I was like, I was a perfectionist and it was ruining my life. And, um, I'm not, I'm not cured, but, uh, I'm, I'm now accepting and being very okay with the fact that not only am I not perfect, but I'm now accepting and being very okay with the fact that not only am I not perfect but I'm like extremely flawed and it's liberating so it's like I teach public speaking right and they're like how do you do how do you prep for like an eight hour monologue you know right I'm like you can't really you can't so so how do you do it and I get on stage and whether I say it or not, I think my opening line is and always will be, I stand before you a flawed human being. I'm imperfect and hopefully perfectly imperfect.

And I hope that that gives you the permission to allow yourself to be imperfect with me. Yeah. Now we begin. i don't you know there's there's there's two foundational pieces that helped me through that i know we're going i swear we're not going too off off road here one um the more i learned the more i realized i don't know much i know nothing at all i believe is your quote yeah and what's the second one realize I don't know much. I know nothing at all, I believe is your quote. Yeah. And what's the second one? It's don't believe everything you think. Oh, 100%. Right. Which is great, because now my brain's not always my friend. Sometimes it's my foe. So even when I'm on stage and I'm the subject matter expert, I'll literally show up and be like, whatever's on my slides, it's what I know now. I might be wrong tomorrow.

So challenge me. If you find a hole in it, let's talk about it. And I'm not going to say I'm right. I'm just going to be, maybe. And the word maybe has gone, it's just so liberating so imagine if you're a ceo and you're saying this is what i know now what don't i know the awareness the first a it's what don't i know and accepting the reality that there's a lot of stuff you don't know there's a lot of stuff you probably suck at and just by admitting to it is very liberating and the world is have a work transforming so quickly that it's impossible anyway. So stop trying. I can't keep up. No, it's like I make myself every time I, I'm like, this is how it is. The next day I'm a liar. I swear to God. Exactly. So I'm right until I'm wrong. Yeah.

So coming back to the CEO, imposter syndrome, insecurity might come in. Ego might comeoster syndrome uh insecurity might come in ego might come in survival might come in um perfectionism might come in results over people might come in um it's rarely a money thing when you when you look at the investment for establishing a coaching culture if i mean i don't want to throw numbers but it's really not that expensive. If your company is generating $100 million and all you have to do is invest $100,000 for like a year worth of training for like, I don't know, 100 people. Yeah. Right. What's the price per head? A thousand bucks. Try going to university and studying. Try going anywhere to study. It's like every certificate is like five to 10 grand now. Totally. Well, and what this does, yeah. And what this does, like creating this coach mindset is creating, really is creating that beginner mindset, that growth mindset that you're looking for. So that people will learn how to learn faster, you know?

Anyways, I think this has been a phenomenal conversation uh thank you very much sir for joining me uh us perfectly imperfect beings uh and i was thinking about when you said um imperfect human on a t-shirt i was like can't we just sum that up to like human we can just simplify that to human yeah yes yes uh the the misconception is that humans can be perfect which is quite egotistical i like to do a quick plug though yeah there's a movie okay i love because you said beginner's mindset yes and the movie is about getting to like black belt or perceived mastery. Okay. Realizing that true mastery, you need to that whole unlearning thing and coming back to white belt, that beginner's mindset. And the movie is Jet Li's fearless. Okay. So well done. I need to watch it. Watch what happens when Jet Li becomes the master, but then when he falls to true mastery, it's, it's amazing. And honestly, I like to, I base a lot of what I do, hoping to get to that tabula rasa, the blank sleep. Beautiful. I'm not there yet. Maybe someday.

Thanks Erin.

Thanks Garen. maybe someday

Thanks Erin

Thanks Garen

Don't forget to stay weird stay wonderful and don't stay out of trouble!

With over 20 years of experience in talent management and organizational effectiveness, Founder of Stay and author of a book with the same title, Kelly MacCallum brings passion, energy, and a depth of expertise in enhancing leaders, cultures, and teams. With her practices grounded in science and data, Kelly drops gems on creating a workplace culture that employees will never want to leave!

Stay in Touch:

https://ca.linkedin.com/in/kellymaccallum

Purchase Kelly's book today, and transform the workplace culture tomorrow:

https://www.amazon.ca/Stay-Create-culture-theyll-leave/dp/B0CZBGY3PT

Script:

How you make people feel is everything.

Culture isn't the CEO. The culture isn't HR. The culture isn't one leader. The culture is the collective personality of the organization. And you have a part to play in that.

When organizations figure out how to take that and tap into that into the workplace, you know, you have the potential to be doing some really powerful things. We're responsible for culture. It's like, no, everyone's responsible for culture. Nice try though.

Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose. And I'm super happy to have Kelly McCallum on the show. Kelly, say hello. With over 20 years of experience in talent management and organizational effectiveness, founder of Stay, and the author of the book with the same name, Kelly McCallum Brings Passion, Energy, and a Depth of Experience in Enhancing Leaders, Cultures, and Teams. And we have some really juicy content, I think, that we're going to talk about today.

So Kelly, before we get started, I just want to tell everyone that I am a huge fan of yours, and I have been for about six months. I feel like a lot of the content, the stories, you're such a good storyteller and the stuff that you share just speaks right to my soul because I know it's so complicated, the world of work, but you have such like an honesty in the way that you speak.

Well, thank you so much, Erin. Thank you for having me today. I am like super passionate about this topic and I'm a passionate human in general. So, you know, I think that authenticity that you see, like, I think it's just me. It's just the way I am. So, you know, I'm glad it comes through in my writing because it's, you know, it's who I am. So really, really pleased to be here to chat with you today. Fantastic. So for those of you who, for the people who don't know Kelly, tell me who is Kelly? Kelly is a enthusiast that wants to make work lives better. I think, you know, all of us, you know, put in all these hours to work for these organizations or ourselves. And, you know, I think, you know, we spend so much time doing it, but so many organizations really fail at making it anywhere near as satisfying as it can be.

I don't think it's a hard thing. I think it's just an intention thing. And, you know, over time, companies just get complacent, and they do the same things the same ways, and they just don't stop to think that there's a better way. So I kind of exist on this platform to help people see that there's a better way and just kind of challenge some maybe traditional thinking when it comes to workplace culture. Totally. And some of the stories that you share, I think really do a good job highlighting that. One of the ones I think that I saw recently was you mentioned that some of the best jobs that you have or that you had or the best job that you ever had was the worst possible interview experience. It was totally a leap of faith. I loved that. I was like, yes, this is basically the same. I have the same experience for sure.

Well, it's so funny because you hear all these universal truths and advice on LinkedIn. If you ever have a bad recruiting process, absolutely don't take that job. I mean, that's terrible advice because maybe the recruiter's having a bad day. Maybe somebody in the background's hurting their process. It could have nothing to do with the hiring manager, has nothing to do with the role. So I mean, yeah, they could be red flags, but like, I think there's just more to it. And I think a lot of it's very nuanced. And so I like to use the stories, you know, to validate my own perceptions and to question my own perceptions and to question the perceptions of others as well. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And especially when you're working, if you like that, like creative work, you like working with founders, you like to have autonomy in your work. And a lot of people on this podcast who listen to this podcast are those people, you know, they're the weirdos in the workplace. Right. I don't actually think they're so weird, though. I think it's actually pretty common. I'm sure we'll get into this in a sec. For sure. Yeah. I mean, it's like, we feel like maybe we feel like weirdos or growing up, you know, we felt like outsiders at some point. And then we come into the workplace, and we sometimes don't always fit. Sometimes we fit better in a creative environment, you know, and that always, I don't think that always goes as smoothly. It's a little bit more chaotic sometimes.

Yeah. Chaos is okay. I always say embrace attention. Yeah, for sure. Embrace attention. I love that. Okay. So when I was stalking you on LinkedIn, I pulled out three questions that you said that you basically had tons of experience in. And what you said specifically was, I know what inspires employees. I know what drives them crazy and I know what it takes to keep them. And so that's what we're going to talk about today is what inspires employees, what drives them crazy and what does it take to keep them. Obviously knowing the diversity of human experiences, not everyone we can paint with the same brush, but if we are generalizing a little bit, trying to stay balanced and using our experience as a guide, what inspires employees? I think humans are remarkably consistent. It's in our biology. So there are certain things that tends to drive our behavior. And there's something very powerful called intrinsic motivation. And you hear about intrinsic motivation versus extrinsic motivation. And all that really means is that people are motivated to do something just because of the result or because it feels good, not because you're going to get a tap on the back or a paycheck for it.

So when that like when that desire, like is driving our behavior, like tapping into that's like just so important. So, you know, again, there's sort of a science behind it. And, you know, I'm far from the first person to ever talk about this, right? I think originally, Abraham Maslow talked about it in 1943. And he had a book on motivation and personality. And he talks about this hierarchy of needs. And I'll get to that in a second. But then later in the mid 2000s, a guy named Dan Pink wrote a book called Drive. And that book, like it's probably the most impactful book that I've ever read, like my favorite business book by far, because it speaks to the power of intrinsic motivation. Now, he doesn't go in and tie it together with workplace behaviors.

But all of my theory and all of my insights all come from linking intrinsic motivation to the workplace and the work of Maslow. So if you think about Maslow's pyramid, most of them have, most people have studied this in school. If you haven't, I'll do like my quick, my quick diagram on this. At the very, like the whole thing about that is what drives humans. There's like a, there's like an order of things. So, you know, before you can get into, you know, self-actualization and all these inspirational things at the very base of his pyramid, he talks about physiological needs. So if you think about that in the workplace, like if you're not making enough money to feed your family, it doesn't really matter what else is going on in the organization. All you're going to think about is I don't make enough money to feed my family, right? So it's foundational. We need to know we're going to have the basic provisions of life.

Second on that pyramid is safety. And so in work, that could, if you're a manufacturing plant, that could be safety on the floor. But in most workplaces these days, I would define that as psychological safety. And so in order for you to feel like you can do anything at work and be intrinsically motivated, you need to have a safe environment. That means your manager can't be a bully. That means you need to feel safe to say what's on your mind. You need to feel like your peers aren't making fun of you. So those things are very, very important.

So once you have those two sort of foundational pieces out of the way, they don't matter anymore, right? That takes the idea of money off the table. So money is not necessarily a motivator, but money is very important. So you can't, you know, you got to keep that in mind. But then when you get into the other pieces of Maslow's pyramid, it's belonging, it's achievement. And this is where it starts to align with Dan Pink stuff. And Dan Pink would say that the three intrinsic motivators are autonomy, mastery, and purpose. And I would throw in their sense of belonging, because I think that's very important, especially in the era that we're in today, because that really speaks to inclusion, diversity, and equity.

So when I talk about autonomy, it's about being able to choose where, when, and how you work. So that whole flexibility thing. So the more that we're entrusted and empowered, more that drives us to want to work. And I think that's why you see so many people getting hyped about remote work these days, right? It's like the whole argument about remote work. The reason remote work is so compelling is because you're providing your employees with autonomy. And when you do that, you tap into that intrinsic motivation. And so if there's like, there's a million good reasons for remote work, but that to me is the main one. So if you can give your people that kind of flexibility, it's really worth your while to do so, because we know that engaged and inspired employees drive business results.

So even if you're a miserable person, you don't care about your people, like you should care about your people because they drive your business results. So even if you're a miserable person, you don't care about your people, like you should care about your people because they drive your business results. So profitability goes up, productivity goes up, revenues go up, customer satisfaction goes up. So all these things are like super important. So leveraging these intrinsic motivators is pretty much everything. So, and we have mastery and mastery is all about learning and growing, right? Having that sense of accomplishment.

So, you know, it's like people say, well, why do people play video games for hours? Right? It's like they don't get paid for it. Right? What is it about it? It's mastery. Like it's addictive, right? So if you can bring that sense into the workplace, that's super powerful, right? And then there's purpose. And, you know, this whole Simon purpose. And you know, this whole Simon Sinek, you know, you know, people don't buy what you do, they buy why you do it, right? So a sense of purpose. And you see this a lot in areas like healthcare, you know, somebody you ask anybody who in their right mind wants to work in healthcare right now? Well, they're driven by a sense of purpose.

And that's why they do it. Right. So when you bring those three things together, and when organizations figure out how to take that and tap into that into the work you know you have the potential to be doing some really powerful things oh you sure do um i mean it sounds simple but i know like when you get in there and you're in the trenches it's not so simple right well no because we don't prioritize it people get all caught up on they just get caught up on the same old, same old. It's like, oh, we've got to do leadership development training and we've got to do this and we've got to do that.

And, you know, they don't stop and think about like what's inspiring. I mean, a good example of that is, God, the most archaic thing to exist that's, you know, it existed back in the early 90s and probably further back, probably the 50s, is the annual performance review. Nothing, there is nothing in the HR world that is more archaic and ineffective, but still so pervasively used. And they do it because they don't stop to think about another way of doing it. Yeah, it's an afterthought. It's like, oh, we just have to take care of it once a year. And if that, like... Yeah, this is just how we do things, right? For some reason, for that one thing, nobody has stopped to think, why should we not do this? This is really ineffective.

Or some companies have, but it's, you know, the big challenge with that is coupling performance with compensation. And by doing that, you make things very rigid, when, you know, rigidity is not really what inspires people. No, I would say maybe we could bump the 100 question employee engagement survey into the same category, you know, for large companies, like, well, I feel like there's better ways we can do things, you know, that are actually going to achieve some results here. What would you recommend for a company that's looking to transition away from the annual performance review? I mean, continuous performance management is, is like, that's where you're going to see better performance, right? So you do something management is like, that's where you're going to see better performance, right?

So you do something in the moment that's great, I tell you it's great, you're going to do it again. If you do something that's not so great, I still need to tell you, and sometimes leaders find that hard. But if you make like feedback part of your culture, and you start doing this on the regular, and like, the other thing about that is leaders asking employees for the feedback. So, you know, maybe you bring me in to chat about how you thought I could have done better in a certain way. And you give me that feedback and then I might give you some feedback and say, well, you know, had you supported me in a different way, you know, that we might have done a much better job together. And so there's like a mutual accountability. It's a conversation. It's not this once a year call to the principal's office where you're given a grade. Right. So and then you learn in the moment what you need to do to adapt. And then you don't have to deal with things like recency bias, right? Like how many leaders at the end of the year, they're like, okay, we've got to do your annual review for your 20 people. And so they're freaking out because they've got deadlines. They've got to write goals for these 20 people.

In two weeks after you write these goals, you've forgotten the goals that you've written, right? Because that's the type of, that's just the type of process it is. HR hates it because they have to herd the cats. Nobody loves it. But what works really well is this, you know, regular feedback cycle. And it's just something we need to practice, right? Yeah. I always like to, there's a lot of, I feel like there's a lot of responsibilities that HR believes they're accountable for, that it's really the, the manager's accountability. Yeah. Yeah. And leaders love to put it on HR. You're responsible for culture. It's like, no, everyone's responsible for culture. Nice try though. Totally. Yeah. So what are you seeing is like the trends in terms of employee retention? Like you wrote a book called stay, you know, which is about what, and I think you are like that is the most important thing for companies we need to keep people I just I don't think leaders understand how much it costs a company when people leave it's crazy what it costs right and I mean and I've got this I've got this fantastic like pdf that I downloaded from LinkedIn. It's something that LinkedIn put together with Gallup and it's the cost of disengagement and it's the cost of losing talent.

And it's, it's exorbitant. Like it's so much money. And if people were far more proactive in, you know, understanding what their people want and don't want, they could like save so much money. Like it takes itty bitty investment, but it saves them. It would save them so much money and so much intellectual knowledge walking out of their company, right? Like it's just, it's- The history, the whole history of the company, it's the culture of the company that's leaving every time someone leaves. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I've done over 1500 exit and stay interviews in my lifetime. So I've got the voices of all these people rattling around in my head, right? I've also conducted like 1000s of employee surveys. So I literally, you know, I go to sleep at night, and I hear these voices saying, why do they do this? And it's always the same thing. So when people leave people, I was like, oh, people leave for money, or they leave for a promotion. That's not why they leave.

They leave because they don't feel valued. And that's different. It sounds the same, but it's not the same. Because when you don't feel valued, it can be about not having your ideas heard. It can be that you're micromanaged. It may be that you found out that the more junior guy who was just hired, who has less experience and isn't as good at you at your job is making more money than you. Like that's not about compensation, right? That's about how you've made someone feel. It's like being passed up for a promotion. It's when your leader takes credit for your work. It's being disrespected from your colleagues. How you make people feel is everything, right? So that's what it comes down to, right? When people leave, it's, I mean, sometimes they leave for more money.

Sometimes it's just that. It's it's usually sales people so I think like sales people I think they're like the exception to Maslow's pyramid there's just some people that are just super wired to care about money right and that's why we like them as sales people you know that's why they make great sales that's why they make that's why not everybody does it right but yeah they're a different breed but they're you know but they're they're they're they're very driven by money and because of that they they achieve great things but that's actually backwards to what uh the research dan pink um talked about because they did work with london school of economics and mit and they actually proved that trying to incent people with money actually decreases their performance. Money is not a motivator. It's actually a demotivator. And it all has to do with performance stress, like not being your most creative, best self. So highly recommend that book. Like I can't recommend it enough to anybody because it does talk about those studies and what people learned about using money as a motivator because it's not what you think. Might be time for a reread. It's been many years since I read that. Yeah, yeah. And it stuck with me. It's funny how certain books just do that, right? That one. Yeah, that one's right there. So yeah, what can you do to keep them? Well, that's where my book comes in somewhat. So I'll give myself a shameless plug. But it's not what you think.

Like the book, I actually wrote the book. I had no intention of writing a book. So there was a client of mine who was on a budget. And so I was trying to figure out how to work with them. And I thought, oh, I'll do all these how-to guides. I'll create all these how-to guides that I can use with future customers. And then I'll just, you know, sign them on for some coaching. We can work through the resources. So I did a bunch of them. I did one on stay interviews and I did one on micromanagement and leadership and whatnot. But then I got to how to create a culture. And I thought, oh, this is going to be one of the longer ones.

It'll probably be at least 10 pages. And then I kept writing and then I kept writing and then I kept writing. And the next thing you know, I had this 150 page document. I'm like,'t a guide this is a book and so a friend of mine looked at me and said it is a book I'm like yeah but I'm not an author like what happened what happened with that I had a good friend of mine Leslie she uh she helped me uh you know add some more color and stories to it but if when you read it it, it sounds like a guide, it's because that's exactly what it was written as, as a guide. And it's all about, you know, creating a very intentional culture.

Again, like, so starting with purpose, like, what is the purpose of your organization, you know, and then defining values that are legitimately the values that align with your organization and how you want to do things and like not doing them because of the right things like everybody drives me nuts there's like the same list of values integrity and it's like okay like who's who's who's not running on integrity right like and you think about uh well you it's funny but you think they're not going to tell you that you know but you're putting it on the wall and it's like come on like that's a terrible that's a terrible value unless you can really be like you know that should it on the wall and it's like, come on. Like, that's a terrible, that's a terrible value.

Unless you can really, like, you know, that should just be the benchmark. That should be like, that's not a value. That's like, like level playing field. Right. But if you think about it, like Enron back in, I don't remember, was it 80s, 90s, whatever that happened, like they had these like golden values. Integrity was one of them. And these guys like were embezzling money and fraud and all of this stuff. You're like, okay, your values, your values were kind of meaningless guys. But, but then you get the opposite. You get a culture like Zappos. Now we don't like in Canada, we don't know a lot about them because they're a shoe company from the States, but we hear about, we hear about their culture because their culture was so revolutionary until Amazon bought them and kind of destroyed everything, which is kind of what happens. But the guy who originated Zappos, he just thought very differently.

And one of their values was deliver wow service. That's pretty clear what that means. If I'm an employee, if I hear deliver wow service, there's like not really a lot of different ways to interpret that. And I had a personal experience with Zappos. I bought a pair of shoes from them a number of years ago now, must have been a long time ago now. And I ordered the wrong size. Okay, so I get these shoes in the mail to the wrong size. And I hate that because it was my brand and I just made a mistake, right? Well, so I called them, I thought, I'll call them. But the first thing that was cool was when I got onto their website, the number to call was prominent. Right. That's so I called them. I thought, oh, I'll call them. But the first thing that was cool was when I got onto the website, the number to call was prominent. Right. That's interesting. That's different. And then when I called within two rings, I got a human being. Hmm. What? What? Like, what's like, oh, hi. And I'm like, oh, this is my predicament.

My shoes, my size, whatever. And they're like, no problem. What size do you need? It's like, I need, I need the six and a half. a half okay cool we're going to send those to you right away and they said when you get time you can send back the other shoes we'll send you a slip and and and you know uh you just got to drop them off at the at the mail i'm like so you're not gonna bill me twice and do this refund no no no and i'm like wow there you have it wow right. Right. So deliver wow service. I'm like, they need it. So when I hear other organizations cite customer satisfaction as one of their values, I'm like, Zappos can say that because they deliver on it. But what are you doing to deliver wow to your customers? Right. I just have a thing like that just popped in my brain that I just have to say. And it's like, you couldn't have that ethos. What they did there, it's like something that I like to talk about, which is let's assume that people are generally good, you know? Yes. Assume that people are generally good and like work from that as a foundational, like, you know, principle. Just be a good human. Assume that other people are good humans.

Are there going to be people who like take advantage of it? Yeah, but not most of them. Sure, you know, and then we can do the things that are right. If we make that presumption, if we presume that people are generally evil and wanting to take advantage of us, you know, we're going to build a whole culture and a whole company that's based on different kinds of principles. Yeah, and that's not where I don't think anybody wants to be there, right? Well, and you know what? Look, maybe that's a valid thing. Like, look to your customer service policies, you know? Well, everything, right? That's the thing about your values. Like, they've got to be entrenched in everything you do. So, you know, there's the whole exercise that organizations have to go with to start with, where do we even start about what our values are?

You've got to figure out what they are. You've got to figure out what it means because sometimes like like a lot of organizations really like these one word values i'm not a fan of them because like when you have one word like transparency like as an employee when i see transparency that could mean you tell me what everybody else is making you tell me about every single you know financial decision the company's making. When maybe what the company means is we're going to be transparent in the why we make decisions. Right. So if you don't define what that is, then people kind of, you know, make up their own truth. So it's really important that your employees understand what the values mean so that they can live them out. That's why Zappos was clever. They were easy. They didn't have behavior statements. They just, they just said things like deliver while service. Right. Right. Yeah. We can interpret that, but there's only so many ways we can interpret that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

And you know, those people were empowered. Like if they had like, I guarantee you, if I, I don't know, for whatever reason, I wasn't happy with how they answered my question. I bet you, if I started making demands, like, well, I want you to send me two pairs of shoes, they probably would. Yeah. It's a silly, it's a silly notion, but you know, it feels like, it feels like they're that kind of organization or they were, they were. You feel respected, you know, nobody wants to buy from someone who you feel disrespected by. Absolutely. So what does it take to keep our employees? We are in a very challenging climate right now. There's been a lot of downsizing. I don't think there's very much trust in the world right now between, you know, AI, generative AI. We don't know who's who or what's what, what's the truth.

I think the, you know, obviously the economy is very challenging for a lot of people politics is fracturing a lot of families even communities um so i'm seeing like really low trust environment what would you recommend to an organization who you know they they want to keep their employees they value their employees well if you want to value your employees you listen to what they have to say right so you don't know what you don't know. I think that's a Taylor Swift line, isn't it? Yeah, you don't know what you don't know. But yeah, that's the thing. Like a lot of people make assumptions, even with engagement surveys, right? So you ask your people for all this feedback, and you get all this data. And then I've done this where you present the data to an executive team, and they go, I know why that's like that. And they go off and you're thinking, well, that's not it at all. When I read the comments, that's not what I'm picking up from that. So there's like a bias that they think that they know what the problem is. And this is where self-awareness is such a problem, right? 95% of people think they're self-aware when only maybe about 10% of us are right. So all of that creates bias.

And then they, they create these overcomplicated action plans and that never make an impact. And they wonder why it's like, well, because you really didn't listen. Like you did kind of, but you didn't do it in the right way. And every person and every organization is very unique. So, you know, what is happening in that organization at that time? What stories are your employees telling? Like, what are the legends and like, what are the truths that they're spreading around to create this culture and to create the system of beliefs? You need to understand what those are. And if you don't have trust, you don't have anything. So you need to find out, like, first and foremost, do your employees trust you? If they don't, nothing else that you do is going to matter. Literally nothing else that you do will matter. Like they have to, they have to trust you. And that's the safety. That's part of that. It's part of the pyramid. Like that's the foundation. You take that, you take that foundation off and everything kind of tumbles. Yeah. Right. So you're right. And it's tough because we've got layoffs, right?

Like organizations are doing layoffs en masse and they i mean i mean i get it they have to they're under pressure from you know inflated costs and shareholders demanding value i mean this is a capitalist society we live in they they have to make profits so layoffs come with that and it sucks and it's there's like a human element to it but it makes the people who are left behind very nervous right like it's like oh am i going to be next why did they do that like they told us we were good they told us they weren't good and so now you have a really fractured uh organization who's going to take some time to heal and until that trust comes back you can't expect these people to be, you know, engaged and inspired and, you know, full of purpose and in all of this, right? Like you have to deal with, you have to deal with the issue at hand. And you do that by being transparent, right? This is what happened. Take ownership of what happened. Tell them what you're going to do to make sure that that doesn't happen again. Build trust, keep communicating, keep being transparent, right?

Authentic. Employees can sense disingenuous personality a mile away, right? They know if you're full of it. Like, so don't try to be full of it. Just be real. That's what people want, right? Yeah, throw your cards for sure. Exactly. Would you say there's any hope for a company if this CEO, if people generally sense that the CEO is untrustworthy? I mean, it depends on the organization. It's hard because the CEO drives the culture. But I have seen leaders create really strong microcultures, if you will, right? So they can insulate their team from it to a certain extent. But I mean, largely the CEO will, I mean, at the end of the day, depending on how involved they get on that particular team and whatever, you know, it can undo it quite well. But I have seen these microcultures actually positively impact greater culture, right? So you Yeah, so you get this team who operates in a certain way and it changes around all the people around them.

And so you get like almost like a grassroots culture. Right. So that's really cool when that happens. But yeah, ultimately I think the senior executive CEO, especially like they gotta be, they gotta be legit. And if they're causing trust issues, you're probably going to have people leaving in droves. Yeah. Yeah. I think the microculture thing is very interesting because I see this a lot with clients. I get people who are, you know, senior level managers, low level executives coming and saying like, I need to make a change. Like there's, there's like something critically wrong, blah, blah, blah. It's cultural. They want to do something, but then there's only so much they can influence upward right well they can and that's the thing like i i also want to encourage leaders not to take that victim's mindset and stop saying oh i can't do this i can't do this i can't do this like yeah but what can you do like you can talk to your people you can do a stay interview with your people you can find out exactly what they love about their job and why they stay and what it might take for them to leave and you might be surprised on what it is that might make them leave it might actually be very much in your control right it might not have nothing to do with the you know the fact that the ceo's uh you know not a very trustworthy character right like it could not be that at all but if you're like if you're smart list again, it's all about listening, listening and action. I know it sounds simple.

Listen, act. And if you're not going to act, don't pretend like you're listening, because that just makes things worse. Right? Completely. It's so true. Okay, so yeah, so that's good. So tell me a little bit about your book. Are you planning on going on a grand tour? What's going going on are you going to create a workshop from it are you going to write another book I don't I don't have any I have like like I said the book kind of wrote itself and then someone convinced me to publish it and then a bunch of people bought it and you're like oh that's interesting I thought might like you know your friends always buy your book because they're nice like that but like I've actually sold a lot more copies of it than I thought I would so that's fun and I'm getting some good feedback which is great um but you know like I haven't planned workshops I haven't planned any talks um I like it's it's kind of there if I want to though like I know I could build a talk on it because I could you know I could literally talk about intrinsic motivation for for hours and it's in there it's part of it and you know how it all plays in with how to create a good culture it's all baked into the book um i would love to do i actually would love to do a book on leaders creating microcultures because inspiring leaders right like they can they can do so much good right and there's so much like again as much as there's so much that's out of your hands there's so much that is in your hands and god you just got to realize it and so that might be I don't know, that might be the next one. I think that would be a fantastic book.

Honestly, one of the things that I'm concerned me is the number of women leaders that are leaving the workplace to try to start their own business or actually start their own businesses. actually start their own businesses, either becoming consultants or, you know, doing something freelance and just like piecing out of the workplace completely because they're tired. Well, yeah. Frustrated, right? Well, there's lots going on there, right? There's, first of all, there's moms, right? So like there's so much responsibility in having a families. And if an organization has not embraced a flexible workplace culture, whether that's flex hours or remote work, I think about like, I think about my daughter, like she's, you know, she's, she's 30. And she's been working for a few years now, when she first started working, what was really important to her was going into the office and meeting her friends and having a coffee and all of that. And then COVID hit and she had like two kids in COVID.

And then all of a sudden it's like, I don't know how I would manage like dropping the kids off at daycare, picking them up. And if I didn't have this ability to work from home. So she's really lucky. She's got a great employer. They have a remote policy, flexible work. And as a mom, that is a game changer, right? So, you know, whatever else she gets frustrated with, with this organization, like she knows she's got it really good. And this is a really high priority for her. And then, you know, I think, I think we're doing better in terms of equality in leadership. I think at least with women, I think we have a lot of work to do with, you know, all the other employee resource groups. That's like a conversation for another, for another day.

But, you know, I think, I think women have really held their own. But yeah, they have additional challenges, especially when they, when they have families. Yeah. Well, this has been an awesome conversation. I feel like we could keep talking for hours, but is there anything that you wanted to like, if there's like one more, what's like one thing that you want everyone to know about, about this topic? Well, I think, you know, culture is everything. I mean, there's that old Peter Drucker culture eats strategy for breakfast. Like the, I was watching a, a talk from Collision Conference and one of the CEOs there, he's from a company called BenchSci.

He was saying, culture doesn't eat strategy for breakfast. Culture eats everything for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. And what his point was, like everything impacts, like culture impacts everything. Like if you blow it in one area, it can completely destroy your company. So if you don't nurse your culture, your organization will suffer. Like big companies have, you know, gone out of business because of cultural issues. Right. And so it's really important. We used to think of it as soft and fluffy and HRE and all of that. It's like culture is powerful. And I think that's what like every, everyone needs to know that. And everybody needs to know that they have a place in culture because the culture isn't the CEO. The culture isn't HR. The culture isn't one leader. The culture is the collective personality of the organization. And you have a part to play in that. Yeah, absolutely. Culture. What was I going to say? Culture is the best survival tool. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Like, like, yeah, it's, I mean, it's, it's everything around you, everything, it's your community, everything around you defines what you do. Right. And you can be in culture is interesting. Like, I think I had a post about this the other day.

Like, you can be in cultures. Interesting. Like I think I had a post about this the other day. Like you can be in one culture and do the exact same thing that you do in another culture and have completely different results. I remember Simon Sinek talking about a story of running into two different baristas. I can't remember where he was, but he was talking about like the barista at one coffee shop was like really excited and, you know, gregarious and doing great customer service. And apparently that barista had the same job at another, like another store. And he saw the same guy at the other store and the guy was discouraged, demoralized, not friendly. And he was like, what's up with this? And of course, it's like, well, in this environment, I'm empowered. You know, in this environment, I'm not, I'm not recognized, right?

So exact same person, same skill set, two different cultures. Yeah. And everyone wants to actualize their potential. So you want to be somewhere, you know, that nurtures that for sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. Well, how can people, uh, get in touch with you because you're awesome and everyone should follow you. Well, follow me on LinkedIn, Kelly McCallum, MAC. Um, uh, you can, you know, read the book if it's interesting to you.

I think I will warn you, it's a step-by-step guide on how to create a culture. So this is not like a book full of, you know, lots of, you know, super ideas. It's like, it's really a how-to guide. So this is not like a book full of, you know, lots of, you know, super ideas. It's like, it's really a how to guide. So that's, that's what it is. And so if you're looking even as a leader to build a microculture, it's a really good place to start.

The book is available on Amazon, all countries. Yeah. And again, like if you, anyone wants to chat anytime, questions about what I'm saying, just send me a DM on LinkedIn. Happy to chat. Awesome. And I will post all of those things in the notes, in the notes for the podcast on all the platforms. You'll have easy access to Kelly at all times.

Sounds great.

Thanks, Kelly.

Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble!

Learn more about our new project: https://trainedtohelp.com/

Connect with Erin on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/erin-patchell

Script:

An entrepreneur is someone who jumps off a cliff and builds a plane on the way down. Hooey. Yeah, he is absolutely bang on.

You cannot do it by yourself. You need a whole team around you.

If you're in Ontario, I would highly recommend, you know, reaching out to your local community futures development corporations or CFDCs, because they have quite a bit of support that might be able to help you.

Today on Weirdos in the Workplace, I want to talk a little bit about becoming an entrepreneur. And I really don't mean becoming a business owner and I don't mean becoming a solopreneur or a independent consultant. I do mean becoming an entrepreneur and growing a business. business. Growing a business, I have learned, is very, very different when it comes to entrepreneurship versus growing a business incrementally and slowly over time. Entrepreneurship is, at least from my experience so far, much more intentional, much more strategic, and much more growth oriented.

I think until last October, I wouldn't have even really called myself an entrepreneur. I would have called myself a business owner. And then before that, of course, I was an employee in my previous role. And before that, I would have been self-employed. I would have called it being self-employed, which again, is not the same thing as being an entrepreneur. I think entrepreneurial people take significantly more risks. So that's something that I'm still kind of getting used to. And then my husband who is much more risk averse than I am is starting to get used to this idea that, you know, this is going to be a significant time, money and energy investment for both of us, since he's one of the co-founders for the train to hell project. But let me tell you the story a little bit.

So back in October, 2023, so we're looking at what was like eight months ago now, about eight months ago, because we're now into June, early June 2024. My, my team member, Sarah, who is a friend of mine since grade five, my first friend, if you've listened to some of the podcasts before, I've mentioned her a few times, my first real friend, Sarah, who is now my team member, who is now my co-founder. She has a partner named Tim who is, he's in a wheelchair. He's now quadriplegic. He had MS, was diagnosed with MS, muscular sclerosis, when he was about 33, 32, 33 years old. And so Tim's case progressed quite quickly. Within about four years, he's in a wheelchair and now he is currently paraplegic. So I've been hearing stories about how Tim and Sarah, you know, try to get around the world and how challenging that is. I've been hearing these stories for quite a long time because they've been together for, I believe, around seven years now, something like that. And it's, you know, it's a struggle for me to hear it because I want good things for them and I'm their friend. It's obviously a huge struggle for them. And one of the major issues was that, you know, even though she's good at doing the research and asking around, a lot of employees at retail locations, if they want to go out for, you know, lunch, or if they just want to go to the store, unless it's a large store, like a big box store, the employees usually don't know.

They don't, they're not informed. They don't have the education. They don't have the training to understand, you know, what is, if their location is actually accessible, you know, how they can accommodate different types of people. So it's a really big challenge for them. And it's a challenge that is, you know, common across many, many, many disability categories. Basically anyone who has a challenge moving around the world in any way. And now we know that, you know, the last in 2022, the statistics came out from Stats Canada, indicating that 27% of the population of Canada, 15 years of age and older, has at least one disability that makes it difficult for them to move around the world or to interact with the world, the physical world.

And so this was kind of in the back of our minds. And Sarah was part of the, or is part of the Accessibility Committee in the town of Carlton Place. This is where we live. And she, you know, learned that there was a business owner in town who had had kind of like a negative feedback from someone with a disability when they came to the location of their cafe. And the person with a disability learned that it really wasn't as accessible as it had been promoted to be. So this is a really big issue because, you know, we want people to be able to, we care about people, you know, we care about customer service. Retailers know that customer service is everything, especially nowadays, because if you're not going to do it well, guess what? Someone else will. And so having spectacular customer service, knowledgeable team members who can serve all of your customers with dignity, respect, and transparency is really, really important. But the very big issue is, you know, there's so much information to learn here.

So what we're doing with the Train to Help project is we're shining a really big light on this and we're creating really interesting online learning for people who are required by law to learn about disabilities and how to serve people with disabilities in the workplace, because we do have something in Ontario called the AODA, the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act. And they've got a customer service standard, and that customer service standard requires employees to be trained on the AODA. And there's very specific requirements there. So I know this sounds all very probably technical, but suffice to say, we want people with disabilities to be able to move around the world with more trust, to trust that they can explore the world, that it's safe to explore the world and that they'll be accommodated. And they know where they're going to be accommodated. So that's the whole goal of the project. Well, and why me, I guess I could say that, you know, me and my husband bring together a very unique blend of skills, you know, him being a software developer, which is a very key component, component, and myself having come from the learning and development space.

So we know we have the two of us along with Sarah, who is kind of our subject matter expert. We have a pretty good team. And then we've brought on four additional people to bolster up different areas where we need support. So we've got an amazing team behind us. But that didn't happen by accident. We started talking about it in October. And then, you know, by the time January rolled around, we realized, you know, I don't think this is just pretend anymore. I think we're really going to do this. So we had committed to it really in January, which is less than six months ago. And then by the time February rolled around, we had already applied to be part of Ignition, which is a program by Invest Ottawa within the Invest Ottawa ecosystem, a venture ecosystem. It's the first program that you can start with when you have a business concept. And so we started with Invest Ottawa, our program started in April. And ever since then, it's been an absolute whirlwind of, you know, creating our demo, getting our demo and applying to Collision Conference, which is on July 17th, you know, and then beginning on the MVP, the pilot, minimum viable product for our pilot, which is running August 14th is the launch date for that. And so we set some very aggressive timelines. And we did that very intentionally. A, you know, because if you're going to do it, you might as well do it and rip off the bandaid. And I would say that's true for anyone. So really this message that I'm sharing today is about like how to get something accomplished, you know, how to actually do it. If you have an idea, how do you get it across the line? How do you bring it to fruition?

Well, these deadlines aren't manufactured. I'm not making them up. So as the leader, as the CEO, and you know, I hate titles, so I don't call myself that, but as the person who's driving the performance of the company, the performance of the company, it's up to me to create deadlines and create some pressure so that we can, you know, pressure. And we've got to be careful because we want some stress because without stress, there's no result. But not so much stress that we burn people out. So we need to be very careful, like how much we're pushing on that gas. people out. So we need to be very careful, like how much we're pushing on that gas. But we do need enough pressure to actually get things done. And I think it would surprise you how quickly people can get things done when they're motivated to do something and when they have a passion for it and when they have the right skills, when the skills aren't holding them up. Now, if you have to learn a whole bunch of things, it takes a long time to learn, right? So that could be a roadblock for you. But if you can find the right people to come alongside you and help, and they have the right skills, and they also have the right passion and the right mindset for it, then you can create some real magic. And that's kind of what we're noticing now. some real magic. And that's kind of what we're noticing now when we brought on Jackie, a great project manager, when we brought in Alex, who's a phenomenal instructional designer, when we brought on Noemi, who has a passion for semiotics and user experience and customer experience and graphic design and marketing. She's like a Swiss army knife. Um, when we, when we brought on Debbie, who is another person with a disability, um, who's an amazing finance administrator, administrator, and we've worked together before, and she's going to be helping with making sure we stay on budget for the project. Um, and then when you, when you put all the things together and you, you know, you, you see what your skill sets are and what you're lacking and what you need, and hopefully you have some money.

So it's really hard to do anything unless you can find the money for it. So create a plan. Go talk to your family and friends and people who you know in your network. Convince them that your plan is viable and maybe they will actually loan you some money towards it. And that's how you get started. If you don't have your own capital put to put in, you need to convince people that this is true. And the process of convincing other people is also going to convince you and make you more aware of what, you know, the project has, the potential that it has, the real potential, and also its flaws and also its gaps. And so you're building this over time. There is definitely one thing that I know for sure, though, you cannot do it by yourself. You need a whole team around you. I've definitely talked about this kind of concept before as well. But even if you're, if you think you're alone, then you're probably not ready to be an entrepreneur. And you're probably not ready even to start a business necessarily. You can certainly be an independent consultant or a solopreneur and kind of manage to do things by yourself. But if you're trying to grow a business, absolutely no way in hell. You need a whole team around you, whether that team is part-time, contract, casual, full-time, mentors, advisors, full-time mentors, advisors, specialists, like you need to develop your whole ecosystem of support.

So if you're in Ontario, I would highly recommend, you know, reaching out to your local community futures development corporations or CFDCs, because they have quite a bit of support that might be able to help you. Any kind of economic development agencies, your local chambers of commerce. If you've got a business like Invest Ottawa, it's some kind of accelerator program or incubator program, definitely reach out to those, especially if you're in thinking about a high tech company. But you need to bring people, you need to bring your story to people and you need to bring people along with your story because it's going to evolve. It's going to change like, like pretty much constantly.

You know, our, our story has changed so much. Like I thought it's so much harder to do it for yourself too. Even, you know, I'm, I'm a business coach and I help other business owners kind of hone their value propositions and take their product to market sort of where I fit in. But even myself, it's so much harder to do it for yourself than it is to help somebody else do it. So when I was first starting Positivist Group, I did engage a business coach and I'm not, you know, ashamed to say that whatsoever. I think every coach needs a coach, uh, maybe multiple coaches even. So, uh, there's certainly no shame in getting help. Um, and it's okay to help for people to see what the process looks like. Uh, That's just part of having a growth mindset.

So if you think that you have to have everything perfect before you can share with anything with someone, I would suggest that's a very toxic sort of mindset to have if you're in the place of wanting to start and grow a business. You're going to have to get very comfortable with people seeing behind the curtain and seeing the process if you want to be successful. I haven't heard of anyone who's been able to be successful without that kind of support. So I know that those of you are out there, I know because I talk to you all the time. And you know that this is exactly the thing that I preach. So this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who's talked to me before. But our experience with Invest Ottawa was really good. It has been good and it's still good. We're not, well, apparently it's like Hotel California. Once you get in, you can never leave. California. Once you get in, you can never leave.

And I'm starting to see how that could be true. But we've had so far, I think it's been eight weeks that we've been within the program, within the Ignition program. It's been a very good experience. We've made a few friends. We've certainly sought the advice of many of the mentors that they have available there. And then the beautiful news is that it doesn't end. So once we've kind of aged out of the ignition program, we can begin to take advantage of their other programs, the flex program specifically. So I'm going to actually recite on June 20th. If you're available, you should join us. If you're from the Ottawa area, please join, um, register. I'll make sure there's a registration link in the, uh, in the event, in the event, in the script, the podcast script, I'll make sure there is a link to register for the Ignition pitch competition. So I will be going up there and I will be speaking stream of consciousness for three minutes and not a second more, apparently.

And then there will be an opportunity for both the crowd to vote. So there's a crowd winner. And then they've got a panel of judges as well who votes for the best pitch. So come and, you know, hopefully you can help us win because Sarah, my my partner in crime here, Sarah wants to win both of both of them. So certainly I think we've got the crowd in the bag and it's pretty much up to me. So I'm going to share my pitch with you and you tell me what you think. And if you think that there's anything that I can do to do better, I would love to hear your feedback. So here we go. Disability is part of the human experience. By age 60, nearly half of us will have a disability that threatens to diminish our freedom in the real world. My name is Erin Patchell and the Train to Help team imagines a real world shopping experience where everyone feels welcome. We have a multifaceted solution.

The first part is a membership platform that equips brick and mortar retailers with the up-to-date knowledge featuring the best AODA compliance e-learning on the market. The second part is a website for our members to attract customers with disabilities and their caregivers to their establishments and provide transparency of information. Let me tell you a story about Tim. With multiple degrees, world travel, and even a stint as a model in Japan, Tim's life was vibrant. Diagnosed with MS at 32 years old, he was in a wheelchair within four years. Now as a quadriplegic, his world would be very small without Sarah, his partner, and my business partner, who fights daily to keep his world bigger.

But this isn't just for Tim. Currently 27% of Canadians age 15 years and older have a disability, and they spend about $55 billion annually across 141,000 retail establishments in Canada. In the past eight weeks, we've surveyed retailers and customers with disabilities, uncovering a significant gap in understanding. 100% of small retailers had not implemented AODA training. 100% of employees who were trained admitted to not actually learning anything. 90% of customers with disabilities believed businesses did not understand their needs. 61% did not feel valued as customers. And these retailers actually really care about their customers, but they struggle with how much there is to learn. Sole proprietors especially fall through the cracks of accessibility laws, even though if they're discovered, the fines for noncompliance are extremely expensive. The good news is we're trained to help. Our seven-member team, including three co-founders, brings expertise from engineering to sales leadership. We have the belief, the skills, and the experience to transform the train to help project from a project into a movement. We're preparing for our pilot party in August and we have 15 confirmed businesses and over a hundred employees participating.

They will proudly leave with trained to help certificates, t-shirts, storefront signage, and a dedicated member page in our searchable website, allowing people with disabilities and their caregivers to explore a bigger world with more confidence. We have five more spots for pilot businesses. So if you know an independent retailer who'd be great champion for this project, we'd love to connect, or they can join our waiting list for our November, 2024 launch. Together, we're empowering customer service teams, enhancing retail brands, and making every customer's experience memorable in the right way. Join us in creating a world where inclusion is a retail cornerstone, not an afterthought. So what did you think? Honestly, I'm pretty happy with it. But again, if you are confused, it's a kind of a big concept to try to jam into three minutes. It is a somewhat complex solution. So I'm curious to see if it actually spoke to you the way that I hope that it speaks to the judges.

So I guess we'll say that we're just at the beginning here. You know, we're, we're putting our pilot out in August, August 14th. We have quite a few local businesses who are signed up for the pilot and that's very exciting. They're bringing their employees and everyone by the end of the night is going to be all trained up. They're going to be hopefully compliant with AODA and, and more, hopefully using those skills every day to bring a little bit of joy into somebody's life. But it's just the beginning. We have a long road ahead of us, like years, you know? So I'm going to talk a little bit about just like maintaining my own energy through the next little while, because obviously I'm putting out a podcast. We're developing a software company. Positivist group is also running, you know, smoothly and, and humming along. Um, and then I also do quite a bit of volunteer work. For example, I'm on the board of directors with the ICF, the international coach federation, Ottawa chapter. Um, and so, you know, I do grant writing as well for nonprofits for free. for free. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's definitely going to be a challenge to manage my own energy. And I think that's true for all entrepreneurs, right?

So really, I've got to say, what I've really just been focusing on is the basics, sleep, exercise, walking every single day for at least an hour, hour and a half. A lot of the time I'll do that while I'm talking on the phone with a potential podcast guest or potential customer or just a friend of mine. And so I can kind of manage to do some walk and talk phone calls and get some exercise at the same time being productive and, and also taking care of myself. So finding ways to do that. Also, I'll just take a day off if I have to, like on Tuesday, my mother and I are going to go to a spa together for the day. And I'm not stressed out at all about that. That's a lie. So, but sometimes you just need a day at the spa and that's okay too. Um, and then just making sure I'm hydrating. Uh, so sleeping well, eating well, getting some exercise and hydrating. And I know that if I'm doing all of those four things, usually my energy can maintain, um, for the 12 to 15, sometimes hours a day that I need to be working.

And in order to, to bring this project to a successful start, it's not even started yet, we're really at the beginning. And so, you know, finding ways to make yourself finding efficiencies in your schedule, and finding ways to keep yourself healthy are going to be really, really important. So I hope you enjoyed this podcast. I know it's a little bit different. It's our 10th episode. So every 10 episodes, I'm going to be doing a solo podcast. And I think because my life is revolving around this project, I'd love to take you with me on the journey. And so I'm going to be sharing, you know, a little bit about what's going on on the back end and how we're doing and how we're feeling. So if you have any questions about that, questions about, you know, what does it feel like to be a software CEO? I don't know yet. what does it feel like to be a software CEO?

I don't know yet. I don't know how to answer that question because it still feels like a little bit of sort of this doesn't really feel real yet, even though it's very real. It's certainly real financially. So therefore it's real. But it still feels a little odd. So anyways, if you have any questions about that, you've got this twinkle in your eye, an idea that you want to maybe think about, um, let me know, and then we can chat about it. So one quote that spoke to me this week is from Reid Hoffman, co-founder of LinkedIn. And I'm really feeling this one. An entrepreneur is someone who jumps off a cliff and builds a plane on the way down. Hooey. Yeah, he is absolutely bang on. Until next time, have a beautiful day at work.

Don't forget to stay weird stay wonderful and don't stay out of trouble