In this episode of Conversations, I talk about one of the biggest tensions in the modern church: we’ve become skilled at gathering crowds, building brands, and producing experiences—but many churches no longer know how to host the presence of God.

Drawing from Exodus and the tabernacle as a blueprint for God’s presence, we walk through how church leadership has shifted from forming priests to creating consumers and spectators.

The tabernacle was never just structure—it was formation, reverence, holiness, and proximity to God.

We talk about:

• Why the modern church struggles with reverence
• The difference between crowds and priests
• Why God is near but never common
• The outer court: sacrifice and repentance
• The bronze laver: formation beyond forgiveness
• The holy place: prayer, truth, and priestly leadership
• The Holy of Holies: presence stewardship and awe
• Why performance-driven ministry cannot sustain spiritual depth
• How the church can recover wonder, holiness, and intentionality

If you’re a pastor, worship leader, church planter, or someone hungry for deeper intimacy with God, this conversation will challenge how you think about ministry, leadership, and hosting God’s presence.

I send a free newsletter where I share honest thoughts on leadership, ministry, faith, and building something that actually lasts. Subscribe here: https://conversations-with-josh-andrew.beehiiv.com/

🎙️ Editing & Production I use Descript to edit and produce this podcast. It makes audio and video editing simple, fast, and clean. 👉 https://descript.cello.so/5I4MealWKa2

Get More Views & Subscribers on YouTube https://vidiq.com/joshnandrew/

🔗 Connect with Josh Andrew Website: https://joshandrew.org

More links: https://linktr.ee/Joshnandrew