Derek explains why three years—1989, 2008, and 2014—are the key to understanding why Putin is willing to take a massive risk in invading Ukraine. Then, Derek asks five expert guests to walk him through the most important second-order implications of a long major conflict. What are the most important ricochet effects that nobody is talking about? How could the war transform Europe? How could it destabilize Africa and the Middle East? How will it change U.S. politics, or kick off a 21st Century Cold War?

Host: Derek Thompson

Guests: Charles Kupchan, Liana Fix, Matthew Klein, Alex Smith, Bonny Lin

Producer: Devon Manze

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices