When The Call Hits Home

When The Call Hits Home | Episode 14: Opening Up About Organizational Dysfunction

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Jennifer [00:00:07]:

Hi. I'm Jennifer Woosley Saylor. I'm a licensed professional clinical counselor and the kid of a cop. And this is the podcast when the call hits home. Hey, everyone. It's Ashlee Gethner.

Ashlee [00:00:18]:

I'm a licensed clinical social worker, and I'm also a child of a police officer.

Jennifer [00:00:24]:

Welcome back.

Ashlee [00:00:26]:

Ashlee, thank you so much.

Jennifer [00:00:28]:

And you again. I know.

Ashlee [00:00:30]:

But let me tell you, you were fabulous. Yeah. I loved your episode.

Jennifer [00:00:36]:

Wanna do it without you ever.

Ashlee [00:00:38]:

Yes. It was so, so, so good. How I mean, I can't help but ask you right now. Like, how did that feel?

Jennifer [00:00:45]:

Well, I mean, it just felt like a normal day because it's just talking to somebody I know pretty well. I've gotten some feedback that we have some great detectives in our audience because everybody's been like, I know who that was. I also got some feedback that I may or may not have spoken over our last guest, and I laughed a little bit. And I sent that to him, and he's like, typical big sister.

Ashlee [00:01:13]:

I'm like,

Jennifer [00:01:13]:

yeah. Typical big sister. I'm in charge and listen to what I have to say to do. I think big sisters are gonna wrap for being bossy. I don't know if you have any experience.

Ashlee [00:01:24]:

You know what's funny is that I actually really loved that because I felt like you got like, the dynamic was there, which I love because I I'm the baby of the family. Right. So I have 2 older sisters, and I I just I know that the cool thing about this is that one day I'll record with them and everyone will get to hear it. But I'm pretty sure that same dynamic will come out. However, I feel like as the baby, I'm the bossy one.

Jennifer [00:01:51]:

Oh, are you?

Ashlee [00:01:52]:

I'm a little more assertive, I think. Like, I'm a little more yeah. Just kinda call us, like, a spade a spade.

Jennifer [00:01:59]:

Yeah. Well, it's another great thing I love about you. But

Ashlee [00:02:02]:

she's thinking.

Jennifer [00:02:03]:

I definitely can be bossy. Loved it for

Ashlee [00:02:06]:

you guys. Like, I thought that was great. That's so funny you say that.

Jennifer [00:02:12]:

It's true.

Ashlee [00:02:13]:

It's true. It was a fantastic episode. Oh, well, thank you. You guys should be like, bro.

Jennifer [00:02:17]:

Too, and I'm glad that we're back at it.

Ashlee [00:02:20]:

I do have to share with our listeners that I'm coming off of a bear's loss. This is a big deal. Nice. It's a big deal. I'm on here.

Jennifer [00:02:29]:

Well, the fact that you showed up or actually would talk to anybody after a bear's loss is is difficult.

Ashlee [00:02:36]:

I got to know. Thoughts on bears. Or when the call hits home, family, as to know, this is how much I care because I'm on here. And and you know what? It feeds it feeds into some of these things we talk about. I think I so first off, everyone knows that I'm identical to my dad in a lot of ways, and this is one way. Mhmm. But, 2, I couldn't help but think so my dad's in Washington for the game, and immediately my brain was like, well, I hope he regulates his emotions right now because that can end not so good when you're in an away team stadium. He did.

Ashlee [00:03:10]:

He's fine. He's good. But I sure as heck struggled with it after that game. So I was like, wow. Talk about talk about learning how to regulate emotions after football games feeds right into the things we talk about on this podcast, but I had to share that because it's important for everyone to know. This is where my priority lies. You know?

Jennifer [00:03:30]:

Well, it is because I did message you and say, would it help or

Ashlee [00:03:37]:

hurt if we first said, so I'm kinda scared. Don't know what we should do here. No. I'm just kidding. I loved it. But I think we have a great so one of the things that we have been really work I mean, first off, we've been working hard, so I'm super proud of us. I think that our listeners are gonna be so surprised of what's to come.

Jennifer [00:03:57]:

I'm super excited. Like, I was speaking to a friend, and I was just like, I can't believe the things that are kinda happening behind the behind the scenes right now. So absolutely.

Ashlee [00:04:08]:

Yeah. Like, it it's about to it's about to keep getting bigger and bigger, and I'm just so excited for everyone involved. And I hope more people keep coming on and keep, you know, participating and and kinda getting these resources that are about to be their way. So I'm pumped about it. And I think today even, one of the things that we love to do is we love to talk to each other about, you know, what are some topics? What are some things that in our childhood or even, like, clinical wise

Ashlee [00:04:34]:

Mhmm.

Ashlee [00:04:35]:

Are we running across and something that's been kinda weighing heavy on me lately and just kind of encompasses everything. So it happened as a kid. I remember it as being a child of a first responder. And now just going through everything that you and I work through, is this piece of, like, organizational dysfunction or organizational trauma, whichever way you wanna put it, right, frustration within departments.

Jennifer [00:04:58]:

So can we define, like, what organizational trauma is or what that looks like for people maybe that aren't familiar or as familiar with that term, like, what that means?

Ashlee [00:05:09]:

So for me, like, when I think about that and, please, actually, you're really, really good at definitions compared to me. But

Jennifer [00:05:16]:

Let me give you a real quick hold on.

Ashlee [00:05:18]:

Right. I'm like, so this is great because I don't know the real one off the top of my head. But for me, it looks like my organizational dysfunction, right, is this struggle within departments or within wherever you work, honestly, career wise, this could be for someone who's not even a first responder even listening. Right? So within your own work, kind of having that dysfunction, maybe more of a negative feel towards others or having things happen to you that's negative. My brain can't help, and I can't go into it right now because that would be a whole another episode. But thinking about just like that moral injury, that that type of things that happen to us at our workplace that really don't mesh well. Right. So give us a nice breakdown of that if you want, Jennifer, because clearly my brain's not there.

Jennifer [00:06:04]:

Well, just, you know, some things that show up when you Google, you know, really top notch research here. But is an emotional response to negative event events at work? I mean, that's a pretty simple thing. But I think we're talking really about experiences within the can I keep using the word organizational? That's not good for a definition. But within the system of place. So, you know, when we're talking first responder stuff, we're definitely talking pieces about the firehouse, about, you know, if you're in a small city, even the city dynamics from which you're working in. Obviously, you know, thinking from a dispatcher perspective, the call room, and then obviously, you know, you and I a little bit in terms of the organization within a police department.

Ashlee [00:06:55]:

Well, I'm so thankful you just said systems because isn't that I mean, that's really what it falls back on a lot of the time I feel, and there's so many systems that are at play here.

Jennifer [00:07:04]:

Mhmm. So whether

Ashlee [00:07:05]:

it be the individual department itself, and then I my brain can't help but to think about also, some of these departments, if we're talking about sheriff's departments. Right? We're going even bigger scheme too. It's like

Ashlee [00:07:15]:

the

Ashlee [00:07:15]:

political atmosphere of things.

Jennifer [00:07:17]:

Oh, absolutely.

Ashlee [00:07:18]:

So there's so many systems that are intertwined, which make this topic, I think, extremely hard.

Jennifer [00:07:25]:

It is. And one thing I mean, I don't know. I the word trauma might be slightly overused in our lexicon. But what I will always say with people because, you know, when I meet with clients, we're not always comfortable using the word trauma. And so it's just really something outside of our control. You know? Like, something that we don't have control over, be it a situation, be it how a organization is run, like, all those kind of things. Okay. I think I had us down a rabbit hole about the definition.

Jennifer [00:07:56]:

But

Ashlee [00:07:56]:

that's No. Kind of what we're talking about. Important. Right? Like, if someone's whoever's listening to us, we want them to know that this is this is what we're talking about. It's a pretty heavy topic, and so that's why it's something that I felt like needed to to be talked about because that's some there's me. Everything in my life has been like, oh, that's a there's the fire walking at ash. But I think it is super important to talk about because it really struck a chord with me this past week of thinking back to my childhood. Mhmm.

Ashlee [00:08:24]:

And I feel like I did see this happen firsthand. Now one thing I want every first responder to remember is that your your children are always listening.

Jennifer [00:08:34]:

Always.

Ashlee [00:08:35]:

Always. And we hear everything. And I I remember often hearing about some of the things happening, like, within my dad's department and being being kind of like I don't just, like, kinda sad or disappointed sometimes. I'm like, oh, well, that's weird. Why would that because we put, of course, we put our first responders at such a high, you know, high standard in life. And to hear those things happening within departments are really sad. And I saw and I hope, you know, I think he's okay with me saying this, but I did see early on in my life, I remember my dad. Like, he first off, he always loved being a police officer.

Ashlee [00:09:12]:

That's something he was very good at, and it's something that he's very proud of, and he still is.

Jennifer [00:09:16]:

Yeah. I love what he said on his episode about getting in the wrong line.

Ashlee [00:09:20]:

Did he

Ashlee [00:09:21]:

not just I'm like, oh, here he is. You know what, dad? Let it out. No. Oh, so he he did love it, and he was very good at it. And I think it was a great career for him. I just do remember him towards the end of retirement being ready to retire, and I don't think it had much to do with the actual job. I do think it had to do with the department frustration on the lack of support Mhmm. And and just feeling like he was having to maybe do things or be a certain way in which he never had to be before, and he didn't wanna be that person.

Ashlee [00:09:57]:

And I felt looking at it now, I'm like, oh my gosh. That's such a hard internal conflict. Right. And let me tell you one thing that that is something I'm so extremely proud about with my dad, that my dad, his biggest thing when he was a police officer was serving his community. That was his favorite thing. He would go above and beyond. I promise you this man would give everything to anyone in his community. And so when he he actually started to, you know, have some kickback at some of the positive things he would do.

Ashlee [00:10:34]:

And when that started to happen is when he started to really be like, woah. This is not this is not what I signed up for. That was through my eyes.

Ashlee [00:10:42]:

That was

Jennifer [00:10:42]:

through my eyes. And so, I guess, can we talk a little bit about that impact for you in terms of, like, through your eyes?

Ashlee [00:10:49]:

Yeah. I think for me, I definite like, again, I definitely remember just being confused and kinda sad because we talk about these departments being such a a family place.

Jennifer [00:10:59]:

Right.

Ashlee [00:11:00]:

But then when you hear about stuff like that happening, you have to have this realization that it's maybe not what you think, and that's hard. Right?

Jennifer [00:11:09]:

Like That is. I mean, that's a grief. You know? There's a loss there of what my expectation was, what I thought this was gonna be, what I'm doing. And, you know, that changing, that's hard.

Ashlee [00:11:22]:

Yeah. For sure.

Jennifer [00:11:23]:

And I I can't imagine I mean, I don't know your dad. Like, you know, you know him. I feel very fortunate that I've gotten to meet him before, but I can't imagine him not just being him. You know? Right. Asking somebody to not be themselves like that.

Ashlee [00:11:39]:

Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And look at me like sharing his information. Dad, don't you can well, you can't really grab me anymore. I'm pretty old. But well, actually, go ahead. If that means, like, okay.

Ashlee [00:11:51]:

I'll stay home and not, you know Alright. No biscuit. I there's just, like, a memory that comes to mind for me, and I think it's a really good example of what this started to look like for him that I I just remember him being upset about about coming home upset about it. And this is the thing that I think is important and I want people to realize is that organizational frustration and I know we're gonna have episodes down the line where we really get into this. And so Yes. We are people. You must be. Yes.

Ashlee [00:12:16]:

I want people to to to think of this episode as kind of like the creaking the door open, but we're about to bust this door down in some of these later episodes. But one of these examples that I'm talking about here is I remember him coming home and he was really sad and, like, jus

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When The Call Hits HomeBy Dr. Ashlee Gethner, DSW, LCSW & Jennifer Woosley, LPCC S