PM Albanese’s visit to Beijing has ended. Are Australia-China relations “stabilised”? And if so, what’s next? To discuss these big questions Darren is joined by Ben Herscovitch, his colleague at the ANU and author of the indispensable Substack newsletter “Beijing to Canberra and Back”.
Relevant links
Ben Herscovitch, “The Prime Minister's visit, what really caused relationship repair, and a policy takeaway”, Beijing to Canberra and Back, 30 October to 7 November 2023: https://beijing2canberra.substack.com/p/the-prime-ministers-visit-what-really
Ben Herscovitch, “Australia should sanction Chinese officials abusing human rights”, Canberra Times, 7 November 2023: https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/8413517/no-escaping-an-uncomfortable-fact-about-pms-handling-of-china/
Darren Lim and Walter Colnaghi, “Allan Gyngell's podcasting contribution to Australian foreign policy”, Australian Journal of International Affairs, 7 November 2023: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10357718.2023.2272825
Yiruma, “River flows in you” (video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7maJOI3QMu0  N
NASA, "Pale blue dot" (image): https://science.nasa.gov/resource/voyager-1s-pale-blue-dot/ 
Jurassic Park (Film): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurassic_Park_(film)

Ep. 120: Where to from ”stabilisation” in Australia-China relations?

A discussion of the most important news and issues in international affairs through a uniquely Australian lens. Hosted by Darren Lim, in memory of Allan Gyngell.

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In the third episode of a mini-series on international order, Darren is joined by Amy King, an Associate Professor at the Australian National University, to discuss China. It is now cliché to say that China is having a major impact on the current order and its trajectory, but there is little agreement on what that impact is and how far it might go.
Darren has taken a keen interest in this question in his academic research, co-authoring a paper titled “China and the logic of illiberal hegemony” with John Ikenberry that was published in 2023. The journal’s editors subsequently invited two scholars to write critiques, one of those being Amy King.  
Darren opens by seeking Amy’s views on whether the “post-Cold War order” is a useful starting point to discuss China’s influence, and whether she agrees with US Secretary of State Blinken that that this particular order is at an end. They then turn to Darren’s paper, with Darren describing his model of “illiberal hegemony”, where China’s approach to order-building is partially extrapolated from its domestic models of political order and economic organisation. Amy has multiple disagreements both with the model and its implications, which makes for an engaging back-and-forth.
This is another long and wonkish conversation, but returns continuously to practical questions, such what Australian diplomats might say when defending the (old) order to their colleagues across the region.
Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Corbin Duncan and theme music composed by Rory Stenning.
Relevant links
Amy King (bio): https://amykingonline.com/
Darren Lim and John Ikenberry, “China and the logic of illiberal hegemony”, Security Studies: (ungated) https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4244377  || (gated) https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09636412.2023.2178963
Amy King, “The Collective Logic of (Chinese) Hegemonic Order”, Security Studies: (ungated) https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09636412.2023.2253148
Matthew Stephen, “China and the Limits of Hypothetical Hegemony”, Security Studies: (ungated) https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09636412.2023.2259801
Darren Lim and John Ikenberry, “China and Hegemony: An Exchange – The Authors Reply”, Security Studies (gated, contact Darren for a copy): https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09636412.2023.2252735
Richard Flanagan, “Question 7” (novel): https://www.penguin.com.au/books/question-7-9781761343452
Sam Sachdeva, “The China tightrope: Navigating New Zealand's relationship with a world superpower: https://www.allenandunwin.co.nz/browse/book/Sam-Sachdeva-China-Tightrope-9781991006172/

Ep. 127: A China-led international order?

In the second episode in a mini-series on international order, Darren is joined by Dr. Jenny Gordon to discuss the international economic order. Over the past 40 years Australia has arguably been the single greatest beneficiary of the post-war economic order, at least among the group of industrialised countries. But from the GFC to Brexit to paralysis in the WTO to the rise of weaponised interdependence, geoeconomics and industrial policy, the rules and institutions of that old economic order – and the international trade and investment that flourished within it – are all under threat.
Dr Jenny Gordon is an Honorary Professor at POLIS: The Centre for Social Policy Research at the Australian National University and a non-resident fellow at the Lowy Institute. Jenny had a long career in government, most recently as Chief Economist at DFAT from 2019 to 2021. Prior to that she spent 10 years at the Productivity Commission as the Principal Advisor Research, worked in the private sector, and began her professional career at the Reserve Bank of Australia. She holds a PhD in economics from Harvard University.
The conversation begins with the question: what was the old economic order, when did it begin and what did it do? As an economist, Jenny says the end of the Cold War is not a key turning point for the post-war economic order, one must go back to the 1970s and forward to 2000s find these turning points. She describes why the order worked well and how Australia did so well within it. The discussion moves to the problems and tensions that emerged that have led us to the current moment, and the two debate – and disagree slightly – on the actual state of the current economic order. Finally, they look to the future, and discuss industrial policy, climate change, alternative models of economic growth and, of course, geopolitics, as well as what the rules and institutions of the future might need to do to protect the benefits of economic openness while managing contemporary policy challenges like climate change.
Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Walter Colnaghi and theme music composed by Rory Stenning.
Relevant links
Jenny Gordon (bio): https://www.lowyinstitute.org/jenny-gordon
The Seven Moons of Maali Almeida: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Moons_of_Maali_Almeida
Peter Bellwood, The Five-Million-Year Odyssey: The Human Journey from Ape to Agriculture: https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691197579/the-five-million-year-odyssey
99 Percent Invisible (podcast): https://99percentinvisible.org/
Lupin (Netflix): https://www.netflix.com/au/title/80994082
Huberman Lab Podcast, “Dr. Becky Kennedy: Protocols for Excellent Parenting & Improving Relationships of All Kinds”, 26 February 2024: https://www.hubermanlab.com/episode/dr-becky-kennedy-protocols-for-excellent-parenting-improving-relationships-of-all-kinds

Ep. 126: The international economic order—Past, present, and future

China's foreign minister, Wang Yi, visited Australia this week. The visit attracted a great deal of scrutiny, not just for the long list of issues in the bilateral relationship, but also Wang's meeting with former Prime Minister Paul Keating. Stephen Dziedzic of the ABC joins Darren to discuss the week's events.
Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Walter Colnaghi and theme music composed by Rory Stenning.
Relevant links
Stephen Dziedzic, “Tibetan activists protest outside Chinese embassy against Foreign Minister Wang Yi's visit”, ABC News, 20 March 2024: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-20/apn-protest-outside-chinese-embassy-as-wang-yi-visits/103611798
Daniel Flitton, “Don’t be timid about Trump, Australia, just roll with the punches, Lowy Interpreter, 21 March 2024: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/don-t-be-timid-about-trump-australia-just-roll-punches

Ep. 125: Wang Yi visits Australia

This episode is the first of a series of at least three that are linked by the theme of international order. Last year US Secretary of State Blinken said “what we’re experiencing now is more than a test of the post-Cold War order. It’s the end of it”. The concept of the possible ending of an order raises lots of questions: what exactly was the old order, why is it ending (if indeed it is), and what might come next? Why do these questions matter for Australia in the world?
This series will try to tackle these questions from a few different angles.
The first topic is war and international order. The two-year anniversary of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has passed, and it is approaching six months since Hamas attacked Israel. These are conflicts with potentially major impacts on international order. They are also important for the leadership role the US might play in that order going forward.
To discuss these conflicts through the lens of order Darren is joined by Andrew Phillips, an Associate Professor at the University of Queensland. Andrew’s research focuses on war, strategy, and international order, with a particular focus on Great Power rivalry and asymmetric violence as drivers of transformative change in world politics.
Andrew and Darren recorded this episode earlier in March. They start with an assessment of where each of these conflicts is currently at, how they might end, and through what mechanisms they are affecting the broader international order, and the leadership role of the United States. It is one of the longest episodes in the history of the podcast, but the simple fact is that these types of conversations require such length to be done well.
Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Corbin Duncan and theme music composed by Rory Stenning.
Relevant links
Andrew Phillips (bio): https://polsis.uq.edu.au/profile/1348/andrew-phillips
Darren Lim and G. John Ikenberry, “China and the Logic of Illiberal Hegemony”, Security Studies, 28 February 2023: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09636412.2023.2178963
George Lawson and Ayşe Zarakol, “Recognizing injustice: the ‘hypocrisy charge’ and the future of the liberal international order”, International Affairs, Volume 99, Issue 1, January 2023, Pages 201–217: https://academic.oup.com/ia/article/99/1/201/6967344
Dune (Part 2): https://www.imdb.com/title/tt15239678/
Ezra Klein Show (podcast), “Marilynne Robinson on Biblical Beauty, Human Evil and the Idea of Israel”, 5 March 2024: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/05/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-marilynne-robinson.html

Ep. 124: Ukraine, Gaza, and international order

A frenetic period of Australian diplomacy has wrapped up, after Australia hosted the ASEAN-Australia Special Summit in Melbourne, which commemorated 50 years of Dialogue Relations. The ABC’s Stephen Dziedzic followed events closely and joins Darren to talk through the week’s news.
Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Walter Colnaghi and theme music composed by Rory Stenning.
Relevant links
Stephen Dziedzic, “Australia and South-East Asian nations endorse watered-down Melbourne Declaration to strengthen ties in the region”, ABC News, 6 March 2024: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-06/australia-south-east-asia-melbourne-declaration-asean-ties/103556630
Susannah Patton, X (Twitter) Thread with reflections on the ASEAN summit, 7 March 2024: https://twitter.com/SusannahCPatton/status/1765500247349039417
Greg Earl, “Economic diplomacy: Australia Inc’s new tilt at ASEAN”, Lowy Interpreter, 7 March 2024: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/economic-diplomacy-australia-inc-s-new-tilt-asean

Ep. 120: Where to from ”stabilisation” in Australia-China relations?

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