White Coat Radio

White Coat Radio

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White Coat Radio episodes

  • Episode 16 - Get to know Dr. Alex Surbaugh

    In this episode, we talk with Dr. Alex Surbaugh, one of the newest editions to faculty in the Department of Pharmacy Practice at East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy.

     

    Transcript:


    Stephen Woodward

    Welcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode, we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. I'm one of your hosts, Stephen Woodward, the Marketing and Communications Manager at Gatton. And joining us is Doctor Michele Williams, Assistant Professor of Pharmacy Practice and Director of Academic Success.

    Welcome, Doctor Williams.

    Michele Williams

    Thanks, Stephen.

    Stephen Woodward

    In this episode, we'll be talking with Doctor Alex Surbaugh, one of the newest additions to the faculty in the Department of Pharmacy Practice here at Gatton. Doctor Surbaugh, welcome to White Coat Radio.

    Alex Surbaugh

    Thank you. Good to be here.

    Michele Williams

    So we're really excited to have you here as our guest. And I understand that your specialty is in psychiatry. Is that right?

    Alex Surbaugh

    That is, yes. Psychiatry.

    Michele Williams

    And can you tell us a little bit about your practice?

    Alex Surbaugh

    Yeah. So I'm just kind of getting started. For anyone that's worked with Doctor Thompson, I'm kind of taking over and doing a lot of what she does, but kind of expanding in terms of—we've added a new clinic. So Kingsport Internal Medicine, and then also I’ll be in Johnson City Internal Medicine. So I split two days in Kingsport, two days in Johnson City.

    Day to day, I’m kind of seeing patients and working with them on their psychiatric medication. So really kind of talking with them, getting to know what their symptoms are, working with their diagnoses, and then figuring out with the patient what the best medication plan moving forward is, and then kind of following up with them as needed and making sure that we're really doing our best to get care into all settings, especially for our psychiatric patients that may not be able to get in with a psychiatrist.

    And so really excited to kind of get started with that patient population and make a difference, hopefully, here in East Tennessee.

    Michele Williams

    That sounds great. Good.

    Stephen Woodward

    So what courses can students expect to see you in so far?

    Alex Surbaugh

    The neuroscience course—I will be teaching this fall—the bipolar lecture. So that'll be kind of my first big lecture to teach. And then also kind of helping in some of the skills labs, communications, interprofessional education, things like that. But hopefully we'll continue to kind of ramp up as time goes on.

    Michele Williams

    So what are you most excited about with regard to working at Gatton?

    Alex Surbaugh

    That's a really great question. I first came up to East Tennessee and Gatton in February for my interview. And so when I was here, the one thing that was really apparent was just how much of a family atmosphere is promoted here among the faculty, but also with the faculty in regards to the students as well.

    I love that people know students’ names, because I was a student on a distant campus, so I had a smaller subset of faculty that I really got to know, and that really impacted my journey as a student pharmacist. And so I would say that's one of the things I'm most excited about here at Gatton, is being a part of that family atmosphere and being able to build those connections with students as well.

    I know mentorship is so important, and having those people you can ask for advice on next steps. I'm like the first pharmacist on my side of the family, so I had no idea what really to be looking for or what was coming and what to expect. And having those mentors was great, and the faculty that I could reach out to. So really excited to get to know the students and work with them and build those relationships.

    Michele Williams

    Oh, that sounds great. Yeah.

    Stephen Woodward

    Well, tell us a little bit about your backstory. Where are you from originally, and where did you work prior to starting at Gatton?

    Alex Surbaugh

    I am from the Nashville area, so about 30 minutes south—born and raised in Franklin, Tennessee. Lived there all my life, and then went off to undergrad at the University of Mississippi. So I am a diehard Ole Miss fan. Football season is obviously coming up, so for me it’s an exciting time of year. But I spent four years in Oxford, enjoyed it, majored in chemistry, and knew that I wanted to do some sort of medicine.

    And so that led me to apply to the College of Pharmacy at the University of Tennessee so that I could start to make my way back home. So I spent a year in Memphis and then three years in Nashville on our distant campus.

    Once I finished pharmacy school, I knew I wanted to get out. I think it's really important—and it was really cool to me—to see practice somewhere different. And so I moved out to Kansas City and lived in Missouri but worked in Kansas at the University of Kansas Health System. So I did my general PGY1 training there—just very generalized—and then specialized. So I really committed, stayed, and did my PGY2 year in psychiatry at the University of Kansas as well.

    So now I'm kind of making my way back to Tennessee, and that was always the plan. So here we are, back in East Tennessee now.

    Stephen Woodward

    Thank you.

    Michele Williams

    That's great.

    So it sounds like you considered Tennessee home. And what drew you to Gatton in particular?

    Alex Surbaugh

    Well, I will say, like I said, we knew we wanted to come to Tennessee. We knew we wanted to get back home. And then I would say the family atmosphere and how apparent it was on interview day. I feel like I didn't meet a stranger, which is really hard to do when you're coming in completely blind to someplace and you've never met anyone there in person.

    But from my first interaction with Doctor Thomas over Zoom as a pre-interview to my actual time here, Johnson City and East Tennessee just really felt like home—somewhere I could see us putting down roots and building our own family and getting connected in the community, but then also within the college and with the students.

    And I love the atmosphere and the culture that's promoted here. And so that's really what drew me in. And so far, I've been really pleasantly surprised with just how true that picture that is always portrayed really is, and just how reflective that is of my time here so far. Everyone's been great.

    Michele Williams

    That's terrific. Good to hear, too.

    Alex Surbaugh

    Yeah.

    Stephen Woodward

    Well, for the prospective students out there considering a career in health sciences, what do you think is special about pharmacy? And why did you want to become a pharmacist?

    Alex Surbaugh

    Pharmacy is one of those fields that I think is continuing to grow. When I first started pharmacy school—it sounds really silly because I obviously was going into pharmacy and committing my life to it—I just knew about the pharmacists that worked in the retail setting. I didn't realize that there were pharmacists in the hospital. I know it sounds silly to say now, but I remember the first day when we talked about residencies and specialty pharmacists that can specialize in different areas—psychiatry, cardiology, family medicine, any of that. I mean, it's just so expansive.

    Now we're also seeing people in industry that are doing pharmaceutical sales, that are working on the research side of things. So I think that's what makes pharmacy so unique, is that we are such an expansive field that continues to grow, continues to expand.

    And I think the second part of that is how accessible we can be to our patients. Medications are, I think to a lot of people, very scary. You read one warning label—someone always told me if you read the warning label, you'd never take the med. But I think we are in a great position to really work with patients on why these medications can be beneficial to them, what they should be watching for risk-wise, what the realistic risk-benefit is, and helping them to make educated decisions and being that kind of frontline person that has that conversation.

    So I do think we bridge a lot of gaps for patients when it comes to their medical team care as well. And so that's something I love about my job as a pharmacist, is being that person that advocates for the patient and kind of making sure that their questions are answered and that they feel comfortable with what they're doing, while also advocating for them with the team.

    Stephen Woodward

    Great. Thank you.

    Michele Williams

    And what do you like to do in your spare time?

    Alex Surbaugh

    I am just now getting back some spare time post-residency. I think everyone always says residency is a busy time in your life, but especially when you uproot and move to a completely new city and then you're doing two years, it is a big time commitment. Very well worth it.

    But I'm a big reader, so that's something—especially in the evenings—I love to just pick up a good book. I'm not really super specific on my genre, so historical fiction, thriller, mystery, anything like that—that's kind of how I unwind.

    I do have a dog, so she is a Maltipoo, and we've really enjoyed taking her for walks.

    Michele Williams

    I bet she's cute.

    Alex Surbaugh

    She is. She's really little. She's about eight pounds, and I think she's a lot more ferocious than she really is. So we've enjoyed exploring the area, going for walks in the evenings, cooking. And then, like I said, college football season is coming up, so my Saturdays will be spent on the couch watching Ole Miss play. And my husband-to-be is a Bama grad, so unfortunately the Tide too. But—well.

    Stephen Woodward

    Is there anything else you'd like to mention?

    Alex Surbaugh

    Everything's been great so far up here. I'm really looking forward to getting started and really getting to know the students and working with all of the students here at Gatton. If I can ever be a resource or help to anyone, I hope they know that my door is always open. So there’s my email—feel free to email me or stop by my office and just say hello so that I can get to know everyone.

    But thank you all for having me. It's been wonderful.

    Michele Williams

    Well, thank you so much for joining us. This has been terrific. And thanks for giving us a chance to get to know you a little better.

    Stephen Woodward

    Yes. Great. Thank you very much.

    11 min
  • Bonus Episode - Dr. Melissa McCall's ('10) inspirational speech at the Class of 2028 White Coat Ceremony

    In this special bonus episode, we hear an inspirational speech from alumna Dr. Melissa McCall, who graduated from the inaugural Class of 2010 and recently spoke to the Class of 2028 at their White Coat Ceremony in August 2024. Dr. McCall serves as the Pharmacy Professional Services Manager at Food City/KVAT Foods and oversees daily operations for 31 Food City Pharmacy locations.    

    In addition, she completed her undergraduate pre-pharmacy coursework at ETSU and holds a Master’s Degree in Business Administration from Milligan University. In 2018, former Gov. Bill Haslam appointed her to one of the highest pharmacy positions in Tennessee— serving on the Tennessee Board of Pharmacy.   

    8 min
  • Episode 15 - Meet P3 Carolina Davis who interned at TPA

    In this episode, we talk with Carolina Davis, a third-year student pharmacist at ETSU Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy who recently served as the inaugural Executive Intern at the Tennessee Pharmacists Association (TPA). TPA is a membership organization serving all pharmacy professionals, student pharmacists, and pharmacy technicians in Tennessee and advances, protects, and promotes high-quality pharmacist-provided patient care in the state. Our student pharmacists frequently have opportunities to attend TPA meetings throughout the year, which are important for professional and leadership development.

    Transcript:

    Michele Williams

    Welcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode, we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. I'm one of your hosts, Doctor Michele Williams, and joining me today is my co-host, Stephen Woodward, our Marketing and Communications Manager.

    Stephen Woodward

    Hi, Stephen.

    Carolina Davis

    Hey. Good morning. In this episode, we'll be talking with Carolina Davis, a P3 at Gatton who recently served as the inaugural Executive Intern at the Tennessee Pharmacists Association. TPA is a membership organization serving all pharmacy professionals, student pharmacists, and pharmacy technicians in Tennessee and advances, protects, and promotes high-quality pharmacist-provided patient care in the state. While at the college, Gatton students frequently have opportunities to attend TPA meetings throughout the year, which are important for professional and leadership development. Carolina, welcome to White Coat Radio.

    Stephen Woodward

    Hi. Thanks for having me.

    Michele Williams

    So TPA sounds like a great place to be. Tell us a little bit about the Executive Intern position that you had. And you were the first one, right?

    Stephen Woodward

    Yes. I was the inaugural intern, so there were really no expectations for me when I was going in. And I tried to keep a really open mind. And they sure hit me with a bunch of stuff. My first two days, I felt like I was in a tornado, just learning all of the things that they needed me to do.

    But I had the most amazing experience. So one of my biggest projects that I was able to complete while I was there is I drafted the Fellows of TPA program. So it's a program for practicing pharmacists to become a Fellow of the association. So they’re just very committed to the association and kind of the mission of the association. So I was able to draft all of that, and it’s to be presented to the Board of Directors in September, hopefully for approval to kick off the first class of Fellows this year.

    Michele Williams

    Wow, that sounds really exciting.

    Stephen Woodward

    Yeah, that was great.

    Michele Williams

    How did you wind up in this particular role? How did that experience come about?

    Stephen Woodward

    So I've been a member of TSSP, so it's a student society within TPA, since I started at Gatton. I've loved it since I started. I have been a member-at-large for two years, so I've been helping kind of plan all of the meetings and all the student programming from the day I actually started. And so that was really awesome.

    And while I was at the Winter Meeting this past year in Nashville, the staff approached me and were like, okay, we think you could do this. You should do it. And I was like, oh, I don't know. That’s a lot.

    Michele Williams

    You’d have to move and, like—

    Stephen Woodward

    I don’t know. But like, is it paid? I got all of the information, and I applied, and I talked to my mentors about it. What do you think? Do you think this is a good opportunity? Is it really what I want to do long term? But what do you think? Can you do it? And they said never say no to an opportunity like that.

    And I’m so glad I didn’t. I’m so glad I said yes and went. So I interviewed, applied, and got the position.

    Michele Williams

    That’s great.

    Carolina Davis

    How long did it last? And kind of walk us through what the day-to-day looked like.

    Stephen Woodward

    Yeah. So I was there for two months, but moving forward it’s going to be a 12-week program. But I had my rotations already planned and scheduled for May, so I wasn’t able to start until the first week of June and stay to the end of July.

    Day to day is not the same when you walk in. So at the beginning, it was very much just getting my bearings, learning kind of how TPA operates. We learned a lot of the differences between TPA as the association and CPRS, which is the Community Pharmacy Research and Education Foundation, which is their 501(c)(3). So anything legislatively, money that goes into the foundation—that’s where all the grants go through.

    I was able to learn all of that kind of in the first few weeks that I was there—the history of TPA, who all was there at the beginning making those foundational steps. And I met a lot of people my first two weeks. Really sat down and met with the team and some of her colleagues. I met some pharmacists from across the board. I met with John Cerasuolo, PBM Director at the Department of Commerce and Insurance. So I was able to meet with a lot of people.

    Michele Williams

    And what is PBM?

    Stephen Woodward

    That is Pharmacy Benefit Managers—whose job is to regulate pharmacy benefit managers within the state agency.

    Michele Williams

    Wow.

    Stephen Woodward

    Yeah. So that’s really great moving forward with the practice of pharmacy. So hopefully we’ll get some more things straightened out through legislation.

    But later on, I started helping plan the Summer Meeting. So I was able to make PowerPoints, review slides, review scripts, all of that stuff. So a lot of just baby tasks moving forward. I was working on that Fellows program in the background, trying to get all that done. I had three presentations while I was there—very short ones, just to kind of get some more presentations under my belt, which were really fun.

    But yeah, a lot of fun laughs in the office. It was very laid back the whole time.

    Michele Williams

    Oh, that’s great. Cool. And so what did you learn? What really were the takeaways from this experience for you?

    Stephen Woodward

    Yeah. So I got really great project management skills and kind of like moving in time blocks and not just looking at something for 17 hours and hopefully getting it done. I really solidified that, like, you have two hours to work on it today. If it doesn’t get done, work on it the next day. So I was good at spacing that time out and learned how to do that quickly.

    But I also really took away the power of networking and helping people. I think that is such a big, important factor of the profession, because everybody helps everybody in some way, shape, or form. So yeah, being able to network was really important.

    And I also really understood how important advocacy is. I always knew that it was important, but I really got into it this time around and saw what all goes into planning for the legislative year and how impactful it is to pharmacists and pharmacy and even patients. So I really enjoyed that kind of knowledge and what to do about it.

    Carolina Davis

    That sounds really cool.

    We’ll talk a little bit about why you want to be a pharmacist and what your goals are now after graduation.

    Stephen Woodward

    Yeah. So I wanted to be a pharmacist when I was like ten years old. My mom has epilepsy, so I have been involved in her care since I was very young. You see all the things that she’s had to go through and how many medicines she has to take. And so since I was little, I was like, oh, that’s crazy.

    To figure out how that works—I’m curious how that happens and why is this happening to her, and why can’t she just be fixed? You know, like all of those things. So that was one of the biggest reasons that I wanted to go into pharmacy. And those goals—how to get there—changed along the way.

    I kind of started with pharmaceutical research to the brain that way, and then I was like, no, I don’t really like the lab work. And I really like patient care and advocacy that way. Also, my aunt—she was really heavily involved with the opioid epidemic and things like that. So seeing how that played into her life and her children’s lives and then my family as a whole—those things, and just the things that Appalachia has to deal with—have really pushed me into the pharmacy profession. And I’ve accepted it fully. I love it.

    So moving forward, I’m working to keep as many doors open as I possibly can to see where the world puts me. But I’m really interested now in ambulatory care, family medicine, and just being a constant in a patient’s life and not having to jump in and out—really helping to find a regimen that works for them and advocating for the patient. So that’s what I’m looking at now, kind of family medicine areas.

    I’m also really interested in still being involved with TPA and working—not maybe as a staff member—but definitely as a volunteer leader within TPA. I’d really like to get involved there, hopefully more on the political affairs side and seeing how we can interact with legislators. You know, they’re not scary people. They just have a lot to do.

    Michele Williams

    Well, I know whatever it is that you decide to do, you’re going to be awesome at it. And what has been your favorite part of pharmacy school so far?

    Stephen Woodward

    That’s such a hard question. I love it all. Even if I say that I’m tired and want to go to bed, I really have loved it.

    Honestly, I think just meeting the people in my class and getting to know those people who have been such an impact for me. Seeing all the different walks of life we come from—that’s been something that I’ve really enjoyed, past all of the pharmacy things, I guess. It’s just getting to be really close friends with my classmates. That’s something that I’ve really enjoyed about the journey.

    Michele Williams

    That’s awesome. We really do have some great students.

    Stephen Woodward

    Yes, I agree. And the faculty and staff, too. I think just getting to know them and being close and in-person support from faculty and staff is really cool.

    Carolina Davis

    What was it that brought you to Gatton?

    Stephen Woodward

    Well, I did my undergrad here and played softball there, so I had been here for a hot minute. And I actually met with Julie Hurley when I was 15. She kind of got me into the Gatton loop, and I have loved it ever since.

    When I came to interview, the second I stepped over here into Gatton, I felt like people really care about you here. They don’t treat you like a number. They want to know who you are. So that’s why I fell in love with Gatton. It’s just the family aspect and the family atmosphere that’s here within the walls. It feels like home when you walk in—for me.

    Michele Williams

    Awesome.

    Carolina Davis

    Where’s your hometown, and where do you hope to go after you graduate?

    Stephen Woodward

    Yeah. So I’m from Englewood, Tennessee. It’s about an hour south of Knoxville. Really small town, foothills of Appalachia. Tellico Plains is the biggest touristy area around, but it’s not very big at all. So born and raised in Englewood.

    I’d love to go back there one day, but residency and things like that—I think I want to get out for a little bit, maybe get some highlights and then come back and serve the people of Appalachia. Ultimately, I want to end up back in the place where I was raised to help the people that raised me.

    Michele Williams

    That’s great. That’s terrific. And so, as you know, our P1s have just started. What advice would you give a P1 who’s just starting here at Gatton?

    Stephen Woodward

    I have so much to say in a few months, and I tell them every time I see them. But I think the biggest piece of advice that I would have for anyone coming into any pharmacy school ever is to do things that get you out of that normal pharmacy student silo. So take opportunities. Be involved in extracurriculars.

    Do things that would set you apart from just your normal pharmacy student. Because everybody can do that. Everybody here has gotten accepted. Everybody can be a pharmacy student once they’re here. It’s what sets you apart from those people. And I think, like I said, getting out of the pharmacy silo is something that’s really important—taking those opportunities when they come.

    Michele Williams

    That’s some amazing advice. I think that’s great advice. And I hope our P1s listen to this and take that to heart. That makes so much sense.

    Carolina Davis

    An opportunity like going to TPA and being the inaugural Executive Intern.

    Stephen Woodward

    Yeah, I know. That is one that’s on my résumé forever.

    Carolina Davis

    That’s pretty cool.

    Stephen Woodward

    I definitely think that that’s such a great opportunity, and it’s going to be there for a long time. So in your P1 summer or P2 summer, it’s an open opportunity to any of the six pharmacy schools across the state. So anybody can apply for the position.

    Michele Williams

    Well, you’ve got it off to a great start.

    Stephen Woodward

    I hope so.

    Michele Williams

    Thanks so much for joining us today and for sharing your experience with us. It’s been terrific.

    Stephen Woodward

    Yeah. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

    14 min
  • Episode 14 - Interview with Mary Little about disability services at ETSU

    In this episode, we talk with Mary Little, Director of Disability Services at East Tennessee State University. Little is the point of contact and a vital resource for our students and faculty when determining student eligibility for accommodations at ETSU Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy.

     

    Transcript:


     

    Michele Williams

    Welcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode, we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. I'm one of your hosts, Doctor Michele Williams, and I'm joined today by a new co-host.

    Michele Williams

    Our regular co-host, Dan Vanzant, will be working remotely for the next year or so. Stephen Woodward, our marketing and communications manager, has agreed to co-host with me during Dan’s absence. Welcome, Stephen.

    Stephen Woodward

    Thank you. It's good to be here.

    Michele Williams

    So in this episode, we'll be talking with Mary Little, director of disability services at ETSU. Mary Little is a point of contact and a vital resource for our students and faculty with regard to determining student eligibility for accommodations here at Gatton. So she's our go‑to person. If someone needs an accommodation, Mary, welcome to White Coat Radio.

    Mary Little

    Thank you. Thank you for inviting me.

    Stephen Woodward

    So your full title is Director of Disability Services and ADA/504 Coordinator. Can you just tell us a little bit more about what your office does?

    Michele Williams

    Sure.

    Mary Little

    Our primary responsibility is to provide accommodations to students with disabilities. The ADA coordinator piece of my job is also to provide accommodations to faculty and staff with disabilities, and also to interact with facilities on our physical campus. But the biggest thing we are doing is providing accommodations for students across campus.

    Michele Williams

    That's great.

    Mary Little

    And that's all students—graduate students, undergraduates, medical school students, pharmacy students.

    Michele Williams

    So we've used the word "accommodation" a lot. What exactly is an accommodation? And if I'm a student—a pharmacy student—how do I know that I need an accommodation while I'm in pharmacy school?

    Mary Little

    Okay. What's an accommodation? In a perfect world, everything would be completely accessible. Nobody would have a hard time getting in the door or upstairs or accessing online materials. But there are many things that are not accessible. And where access is not, an accommodation is needed to make that bridge so that the person with a disability can access it as well.

    Mary Little

    So that's what an accommodation is in the short version. If you have had—if you have any kind of disability, or if you are a student and perhaps you had some assistance going through K through 12 and high school, it's really worth it to reach out to our office and talk that through. You may be eligible for an accommodation.

    Mary Little

    And we can help you with that. So if you have any kind of disability—we’re serving all kinds of disabilities. People often think disability means people in wheelchairs. It does, but it also means all kinds of disabilities. We have a huge number of students with medical disabilities. I'm always surprised by that, I guess, by the number of students who have chronic medical issues. But no, there's mental health, there's learning disabilities, autism, all kinds of ADHD.

    Mary Little

    So it's a wide range of disabilities. So if you have any of those things and you think that it might be impacting you in any way in your academics, it's worth it to talk to us.

    Michele Williams

    Okay. Okay.

    Stephen Woodward

    Just to play devil's advocate for a moment—would asking for an accommodation be a way just to get an advantage on an exam?

    Mary Little

    No, I'm glad you asked that question, but it's absolutely not that. And an example I would say is—we all wear glasses and we don't think a thing about it. We wouldn't think to take an exam without our glasses, because we wouldn't be able to access that. We can put our glasses on and we can. So the accommodations are simply that—they're leveling the playing field for the person with the disability.

    Stephen Woodward

    So what is an invisible disability?

    Mary Little

    So invisible disabilities are the ones that are not readily obvious. If you see a person in a wheelchair, you know they have a disability. A deaf student may have an interpreter with them. A blind student often uses a cane. So the invisible disabilities—which is actually the vast majority of students with disabilities—it's all the chronic medical, mental health, the learning disabilities, the things that would not be obvious in just seeing a person or talking with them.

    Stephen Woodward

    Thank you.

    Michele Williams

    So if a student thinks they might have a disability that could be accommodated, do they need to wait until they start making failing grades—or non‑passing grades as we say in parentheses—before they look into getting an accommodation?

    Mary Little

    Yeah, that's a great question. And the answer is no. Don't wait. Come and see us. Really, when you begin school, it's a good time to just talk about it. I encourage students who have disabilities—and a lot of freshmen think they want to come and try it without—but I encourage them to establish the safety net.

    Mary Little

    You don't have to use accommodations even if you have been made eligible for them. So it's important for a student to have the safety net. And I would recommend they use them as they get their feet under them, because if you're not eligible for them, there's nothing I can do for you after you've failed the test.

    Mary Little

    But if you are eligible for extended time on an exam, for instance, and you don't use it, nobody may understand. So I would say absolutely don't do that. I don't understand the math in this, but a bad grade hurts you more than a good grade does you good.

    Michele Williams

    So yeah. And in pharmacy school, there's not a huge amount of time to correct—to correct the problem. So being prepared, and if you think you might have a disability, it sounds like it's a good idea to get in touch with your office to make sure.

    Mary Little

    Absolutely.

    Michele Williams

    And if I'm a student who has an accommodation, do I have to tell my professor I have a disability? And will my fellow students know I have a disability?

    Mary Little

    So when you request accommodations, you're establishing the idea that you have a disability. When I communicate the accommodations to your faculty, that's what I communicate—the accommodations.

    Michele Williams

    Okay.

    Mary Little

    So there's no disclosure from me or my office about what the disability is or why that's needed. It's just—that’s sort of what we're tasked with, being the clearinghouse for the documentation and having read it and knowing that it means this. And then I can just tell faculty this is what we need to do.

    Mary Little

    So they're going to know there is a disability, but they're not going to know the specifics. And your peers are not going to know that either.

    Michele Williams

    Okay. Good to know. And if I think I might need an accommodation for pharmacy school, how do I get in touch with you? What's the easiest way? Do I call your office? Do I go to the Disability Services website at ETSU, or how do I do that?

    Mary Little

    You can do any of those.

    Michele Williams

    Okay.

    Mary Little

    We are located on the third floor of the Culp Center, and you are welcome to drop by. Our phone number is (423) 439‑8346. And you can absolutely give us a call. You can email [email protected]. You can go to our webpage and do the application, and then we'll contact you. So really any of those things work, and we respond to all of them.

    Michele Williams

    Great. One other tip—you can also go see Doctor Williams at the College of Pharmacy, and she'll give you Mary Little’s card. And then you'll have it there.

    Mary Little

    Yeah.

    Stephen Woodward

    What's your favorite thing about your job?

    Mary Little

    Oh wow. I would say my favorite thing is the creativity of it. It is not a job where one size fits all. There's no two people that are the same. Two people can have the same disability—it’s not going to be the same. They're not in the same program. And there's never a shortage of things we've not heard of before, a need we've not done before, or a new disability we've not heard of before or worked with before.

    Mary Little

    So I love that you have to think on your feet. And you need to like doing that piece, which I do.

    Stephen Woodward

    On the flip side of that, what's the biggest challenge that you face on a daily basis?

    Mary Little

    Gosh, you know… so the disabilities in and of themselves are not so much the issue. I think we're at a really interesting time as a country and as a university where things are really changing. You know, we talk about equity and things like that, and disability is a piece of that. And so moving from a place of compliance to true accessibility—I think we're on that path.

    Mary Little

    And so it's a challenge and it's an exciting thing both.

    Michele Williams

    And you were talking about that one of your favorite things is being creative. And I know from my interactions with you that you're a really good problem solver. And one thing that's come up recently that I hadn't really thought about before—that you and I have worked on, that you and Doctor Alexander have worked on—are accommodations for students who are going on clinical rotations, particularly the advanced experiences, the APPEs.

    Michele Williams

    So can you talk a little bit about what students should do if they feel like the accommodations that they’re getting in the classroom—they may need some other version of that out in the field, in a clinic, or in that sort of environment?

    Mary Little

    Yeah, I think it's really important—really for maybe any student who is receiving academic accommodations—to maybe touch base with you, to touch base with me, and say: we're getting ready to go into these clinical experiences; how is this going to translate? And is there something we need to do? So the academic accommodations are under Title II of the ADA, and then workplace accommodations are under Title I of ADA.

    Michele Williams

    Makes sense, yeah.

    Mary Little

    So the process is the same—it's just a different law and a different way of navigating it. But there may be things that you didn't need in the classroom that you will need in the work world, or vice versa. So I would almost say anybody who is getting ready to do those rotations—APPEs—that's getting accommodations, it would be worth touching base with you and me to talk that through.

    Michele Williams

    That's good to know, because I think students get very focused on the academic accommodations. They want to make sure they have what they need for exam time and those kinds of things, but they don't think ahead to—especially students maybe with medical accommodations—that when they get into a clinical setting, some of that may translate into that setting, but that requires a greater degree of preparation.

    Michele Williams

    It seems like, than extra time on a test or something like that.

    Mary Little

    Yeah. I guess, you know, the different pharmacies are set up differently. And working with Doctor Alexander has been a great experience for me. She knows the different ones and what they have and what they are strong in. And you can select them based on what you're trying to accommodate. A person might be best served in one setting over another.

    Mary Little

    So—and I think the other piece of that is equipping the students for knowing how to advocate once they are in the work world, and how to ask for accommodations, and to know that as a person with a disability, you have certain rights. You're not asking for a favor or anything like that. But knowing how to do that with confidence and respect—you know, sometimes just counseling on that is helpful.

    Michele Williams

    Yeah. And so talking to you about that can be really helpful, too, so that they're sort of equipped when they get out into the working world. It almost seems like preparing in that way for an IPPE or definitely an APPE gets you ready for moving into your career and making sure you have what you need to be successful.

    Mary Little

    Yeah, absolutely. That's great.

    Stephen Woodward

    Do our alumni have access to your services after they graduate?

    Mary Little

    I have talked to people—not at the same level as a student one—but I think the university is always a resource to alumni, if I'm not mistaken.

    Stephen Woodward

    We can cut that out.

    Mary Little

    Yeah, you might want to cut that out.

    Stephen Woodward

    All right, Dan, cut that out.

    Mary Little

    I also might want to cut out when I said "equity" there on our school anyway.

    Michele Williams

    Might. Yeah. Yeah.

    Stephen Woodward

    So okay.

    Michele Williams

    And so I'm going to pause for a minute and then may ask you a question about assistive technology. So what if I need some assistive technology in the classroom? What kinds of technology are available to students with disabilities? And how does that work?

    Mary Little

    So it's such a broad landscape, you know, of disability, and therefore what technology would be helpful. But I'll talk about the things that are kind of really cool. So a lot of students will have trouble note‑taking, which is a complicated process, right? If you're listening, distilling, writing, all at the same time. And if you're a person with a disability or something like that, it can really slow you down.

    Mary Little

    So we offer note‑taking software.

    Michele Williams

    What is a print disability? Like dyslexia?

    Mary Little

    Anything, you know, where you are not processing printed word as quickly. Yeah. So we offer note‑taking software to a lot of people, but there's also the LiveScribe pens, which just look like a pen. They're the coolest thing, right? They just look like a pen, but it interfaces with the internet. And you're taking notes and you know it's recording, and then you—

    Michele Williams

    Sync it with your computer?

    Mary Little

    —in Evernote, which is where it works perfectly. And you hear the professor lecturing and your handwriting is magically appearing on the computer screen. And it's "Oh, here we go to that glitch where I zoned out for a minute," and I can fill that in because I'm hearing it again. You upload it and it's there. That's very cool too.

    Mary Little

    You know, that does sound cool.

    Michele Williams

    Yeah, I think other students might be interested in that too.

    Stephen Woodward

    I'd like to get one of those.

    Michele Williams

    Yeah. Yeah.

    Mary Little

    I have an attorney friend who uses it for all kinds of stuff. But I mean, you know, yeah—buy him one. But the other thing we got recently is a reader pen. So again, students who have difficulty learning disabilities—previously the accommodation might be a reader as needed on an exam. So this is a person who's reading in our office.

    Mary Little

    We do like to encourage technology largely because you're not going to want to ask a person to read things on your job. So the more tools you have and the more you know how to use them—the more independent you are. Makes sense, right? So the reader pen looks kind of like a highlighter, and you can go over printed material and it will read it out loud.

    Mary Little

    That is cool.

    Michele Williams

    And do you have that equipment over at Disability Services?

    Mary Little

    We do. In fact, you can take a picture of it, translate it to another language, and then have it read it to you.

    Michele Williams

    Interesting.

    Mary Little

    Yeah. Wow. Traveling—you might want one. But I mean, a lot of students might have use for something like that.

    Michele Williams

    Well, that's great. Is there anything else about getting an accommodation or advocating for yourself as a student, or anything else about the kinds of things that your office does, that you would like for our students to know?

    Mary Little

    I guess the biggest thing I would like students to know is, again, you're not asking for a favor. You're just asking for the thing that makes it level—just like using a step ladder or glasses. And it's no more than that. So I would love for students to assimilate that and feel comfortable with themselves and with that.

    Mary Little

    Other than that, I would say, if you think you need help, please come see us early and let's work together to put in place what you need. If you need documentation, you know, we can explain what would be needed because it's going to depend on—if it's a medical disability, it'll be a doctor's letter, or if it's a mental health disorder, maybe your therapist is writing your letter.

    Mary Little

    Or maybe you've had an evaluation at the Behavioral Health and Wellness Clinic on main campus. So it would depend. And the earlier you talk to us, the earlier we can get everything into the pipeline.

    Michele Williams

    So you help give students advice on what it is that they need and how to do that.

    Mary Little

    Yes.

    Michele Williams

    How to do that. That's great. Well, Mary, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been really, really helpful. And hopefully students will take the step and reach out to your office and make sure they get those accommodations when they need them.

    Mary Little

    Well, thank you very much for having me. It's great to work with the pharmacy school. Thank you.

     

    20 min
  • Episode 12 - "POGIL", what is it, and what to expect as a student with Dr. Stacy Brown

    In this episode, we talk with Dr. Stacy Brown, Professor of Pharmaceutical Sciences at East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy about the Process Oriented Guided Inquiry or "POGIL" teaching strategy.  In addition to being a POGIL expert, Dr. Brown is an award-winning educator and researcher.  She teaches Medical Biochemistry and Medicinal Chemistry and serves as the Interim Chair of the Department of Pharmaceutical Sciences at Gatton.  

    Transcript:


    Dan VanZant

    Welcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode will cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. We are your hosts, Dan VanZant.

    Michele Williams

    And I'm Doctor Michele Williams, director of academic success. In this episode, we'll be talking with Doctor Stacy Brown, professor of pharmaceutical sciences at Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy. Doctor Brown teaches medical biochemistry and medicinal chemistry and serves as the interim chair of pharmaceutical sciences. She's also an award‑winning educator and researcher. Welcome to White Coat Radio, Doctor Brown.

    Michele Williams

    Thank you very much. So we all know you as the coordinator for the chemistry courses in the P1 year, but you are also our resident expert on teaching with an instructional model known as POGIL. Can you tell us a little bit about what POGIL is and why you use it?

    Stacey Brown

    Okay. So POGIL—the acronym stands for Process Oriented Guided Inquiry Learning. And so this is a student‑centered, group learning teaching strategy. It was developed back in the 1990s by some chemists at a smaller university, intended to help students learn chemistry. So that's the framework where it originated. But now it’s expanded to all different— all kinds of different fields.

    And in a POGIL classroom, the students are working in small teams, and the instructor is the facilitator. So there's not a lot of lecturing, not a lot of slides and things like that. What they're working on are very specifically designed exercises that take them through the learning cycle. And so you give them data of some sort—a figure. I use chemical structures all the time. Sometimes there's a table, and you use guided questions to help them look at that model or that information.

    So we would call this just the exploration phase. They’re looking at the model. They're answering questions. And sometimes the questions look super easy. But the whole point is to make them look at it and say, what kind of information can I get out of this? I mean, even as simple as—if it’s a graph—what are the axes? You know, what is this graph of?

    So they explore the model and then eventually they go to a phase called concept invention, where they try to see some trends in the information and then come up with some sort of hypothesis. So the idea is that you've followed kind of the scientific method with this.

    So they come up with a hypothesis to explain the model, maybe generalize what they're seeing. This is the concept that we're trying to get at. And then finally they're going to apply that concept. So now we have our idea, and I'm going to throw some new information at you in an application question, and you're going to see how the concept works.

    So that’s what the classroom looks like. The process part is a little bit harder to quantify and to assess, but there are tools for that. And those processes are very intentional. They include oral and written communication, teamwork, time management, problem solving, critical thinking, and assessment work—both self‑assessment and metacognition.

    And so there are rubrics from the POGIL project, which maintains all of the resources for this strategy, to assess each of these things. If you have an activity that's really focused on critical thinking, there's a rubric to go along with that so you can see how well your students are doing.

    But as far as why I use this—I started teaching in a chemistry department at another university. It was a military college, and that will be important later. But when I first started teaching, I just did exactly what I had seen as a student. And I was a good student and did fine. So whatever that was, I thought, well, this must be the perfect way.

    But my students were really doing poorly, and they were the lowest cohort of Gen Chem students in the department among six or seven instructors. Mine were like a full standard deviation below everybody else. And so I thought, okay, maybe I should quit my job because I'm awful at this. And my chair talked me out of it and said, no—you’re not awful. You just don’t know how to do it yet.

    And so she sent me to some training at an American Chemical Society meeting. And I learned about POGIL there. And I just signed up for something random. I didn’t—I was like, okay, well, you sent me. Let me do something while I'm here. And it was sort of a transformative moment because I said, oh my gosh—first of all, sorry, but all the teachers I had before were not doing a good job. Because I stood at the chalkboard, you know, and wrote things. Or stood at an overhead projector and wrote things.

    And so I came back to my job and I said, okay, I'm going to do this totally different. It's going to be awesome. And it—it was. Wow. It was really good. But I had a lot of pushback from the students, like, whoa, what are you doing? And even from some of the other faculty because they thought I had gone off the deep end with my ideas.

    But it was working really well for my students. They kind of turned their ship around. And then when I came here, I said, I'm going to bring this strategy with me because it worked really well. And I was the only person—the first person—to ever teach a class. So there was no precedent. I could do whatever I wanted, and it was all mine.

    So slowly I developed activities to go with medicinal chemistry. And then now I'm working on biochemistry.

    Michele Williams

    So have you gotten any pushback from students here—either when you first started using it or at the beginning of a new semester? Do students get a little freaked out about this model? Or are you experienced enough with it now that you sort of take care of that before it starts?

    Stacey Brown

    Initially in a few—it would—the pushback would only come in the form of evaluations at the end of the semester. Like, “I'm not paying all this money to teach myself.” Like—okay, well, that’s fine. That’s not what happened, but that’s okay.

    And so now I just sort of preface everything in the first class. I just tell them, like, look, I want everybody to succeed. I don't have a preconceived notion of, “We're going to give out this many A’s and this many B’s.” I want you all to know this stuff. And this is the way that I've learned—and research supports it. And if you like reading research papers, I can provide those. That helps you.

    And then, you know, I often have individual groups in each classroom that don’t like to sort of coalesce together and work together. And I just try to encourage them a little bit more—like learning is a community thing. And it's so much easier if you have that community to support you. So let this be your little community while you're in here. And maybe you don't study with these people later. That's okay. But while you're working through this stuff—

    So I don't get a lot of pushback anymore. But initially I did, and I really did when I first started. But I also think I startled them.

    Michele Williams

    By—like, that's a big change.

    Stacey Brown

    Yeah, it was a huge change. Yeah.

    Dan VanZant

    So it seems like you make chemistry less daunting. And you have a very high reputation amongst your students. So how do you achieve that? How do you do that?

    Stacey Brown

    Yeah. Well, I don't know that I help them love it, but my goal is to build their confidence with it. Because—I took medicinal chemistry with the pharmacy students at the University of Georgia. So I was a PhD student, but in that program PhD students and pharmacy students are on the same track for the first year, and then they diverge.

    In my med chem class, all we did was memorize structures. That is—we drew them and we identified them by the way they looked. And that is all we ever did. And I thought—that is a waste of time. And we're not going to do that in my med chem class.

    So I’ve thought a lot over the years about what information you can get from a chemical structure that would help you understand that drug. Because they're going to see new drugs in their career. And I want them to be able to use all the information about it—not just the clinical trials, not just maybe the kinetics and the package insert—but even look at the structure and say, oh gosh, I understand why we have to give this IV. Or I understand why you only get this once every six months. Or whatever it is—you can find those data in the structures.

    So that's what I set out to build their confidence in. You're not going to memorize stuff for the sake of memorizing it. It's all about learning a handful of tools and then just applying them to new situations.

    So building their confidence that they can use information in the chemical structures—and then keeping their morale high. And this is what I learned teaching in a military college—that if their morale is low, and they're scared and nervous about the content, and they're nervous about their ability to do it—that is a huge roadblock to success.

    So despite how high‑achieving they might be—if their morale is low about that ability—they won’t be as successful.

    So learning the value of morale is another thing that’s applicable to any class. But it really helps with the chemistry stuff because many students do come in with a lot of trepidation about it.

    Michele Williams

    You know, you're saying that really makes a lot of sense to me in the context of talking to students individually. Because they talk about their past struggles with chemistry and so forth. But when they get into your class—after they've been in there for a little while—I don't really hear that from them anymore.

    And it can be incredibly discouraging if you don't do well on an exam—particularly for pharmacy students. They come to pharmacy school having been good students, and they are not accustomed to getting failing grades or non‑passing grades. And for any of us, it puts a big dent in your confidence.

    So it makes a lot of sense to hear you say that you work on their morale and confidence, because that does seem to be part of the transformation they make when they get into your class. They seem less discouraged, which I think is huge.

    The motivation—if you don't, first of all, have a need to know—which it sounds like in your description of understanding the structures versus memorizing them—built into that is a need to know. Why do pharmacists need to know chemical structures? And that's why.

    But also the idea of: you can do this, you should be confident in your ability to do it. And just listening to you talk to students actually makes me a little jealous because I'm thinking—I wish Dr. Brown had taught me chemistry. I would have felt a lot more confident in my abilities.

    But when you talk to students—that’s why I encourage them to come see you—because that can be transformational. Just to have that conversation with the expert and understand, “Oh—I can do this. I think I can do this.”

    So yeah, that makes so much sense. Now you're in that room with them the whole time.

    Dan VanZant

    Yeah, I can relate to that too. With my chemistry class—or several classes—you have a topic that's known to be difficult, and then you mix that with a professor that doesn't seem to care about your morale or give you the “can‑do” attitude. And it really makes a difference in being able to learn the material.

    And then also the application piece is huge. Every time I've had a professor who has gone the extra mile and shown how it fits into this broader picture—it really is helpful and meaningful.

    Stacey Brown

    And I can't do much of the application stuff in the first year just because I don't have the clinical background yet. But then, through the other courses—where we teach along with the therapy and pharmacology—I’m always in touch with the clinical instructors to help me identify some good application things.

    For example, in infectious disease, they might talk about which antibiotics you're going to give orally and which are IV only. And I can do that in the med chem portion of it. So we can learn to look at the structures and decode that. Then they're not just memorizing the list—they say, “Oh, okay, I remember that chemical feature that made this one restricted to IV only versus oral.”

    So I'm always trying to weave those real applications in. Because I'm not a pharmacist. But I happen to know a few. And they help me figure out how to get the chemistry in there.

    Michele Williams

    Okay. Great.

    Dan VanZant

    Also—thinking about the structures. When I was taking some of these classes—nobody had an iPhone in their pocket. And as I recall, we did have the little model kits that we'd have to put together and look at structures that way.

    We were just getting into having computers where we could kind of look at some of those—if you were fortunate enough to have one in your dorm. But now that we have all this technology—have you found any apps or do you use any apps in class that help students visualize structures?

    Stacey Brown

    I personally don't use a lot of that kind of thing. I provide all of those resources—figures and things like that—but I don't have any apps that necessarily help them.

    What you're talking about is more like in organic chemistry—you would look at the three‑dimensional space that a molecule fills. And I guess you can still do that—and you could probably find those images pretty easily now, where before you would have had to physically build them.

    But they probably are more aware, honestly, of different apps than I am. I just self‑generate what they experience.

    Michele Williams

    So you mentioned that you teach further into the curriculum. The students will see you again in various classes. And you mentioned infectious diseases. What other classes do you teach in, as well as those first‑year classes?

    Stacey Brown

    So I'm in every semester now. Infectious diseases and pulmonary for the P2s in the fall. And then for the P3s in the fall—the endocrine and men’s and women’s health course, neuro psych, and GI—which is actually P2 now. I'm a little discombobulated about where they fit.

    Then for the spring P2s—I have cardiovascular. And for the P3s in the spring—I see them in the oncology course and in critical care. And if I'm missing one, I apologize.

    Michele Williams

    Those sounds like a lot.

    Stacey Brown

    But it's really fun to see that progression through the curriculum. Because especially starting in med chem with P1s—we’re working on very fundamental things: functional groups, what's an acid and a base. And then I see them in spring P3 and I'm not—and I give almost zero instruction at that point. There's no preface. They just come in and start working.

    And they’re sitting there debating in that critical care activity I have—it’s a toxicology one. They’re debating, like: “Okay, which antidote is better for this type of cyanide poisoning?” Or “Is Narcan the best choice, or is there something else?”

    It’s just fun to hear them having these conversations. And it's all predicated on their understanding of the chemistry. But I didn't tell them anything about it. They're just coming up with it because they have the background.

    So it's really awesome to watch them grow. And I always compliment them. I'm like, “You're so smart. Look at you having all these smart conversations. And two years ago you were trying to figure out what's a carboxylic acid.”

    Michele Williams

    That's the astonishing thing about pharmacy school—the development of a person’s expertise over such a short period of time. They just transform into pharmacists. It's pretty cool.

    Stacey Brown

    Yeah. And teaching every semester—I get to witness that happening. It’s awesome. I love it.

    Michele Williams

    So if we think about the P1s for a minute—if you were giving advice to a P1 about what they need to be successful in medical biochemistry or medicinal chemistry, what bits of advice would you have?

    Stacey Brown

    Well, I do—on the syllabus—for each class—I have pre‑work. And it's usually just…the idea is that you preview the content. You don't turn anything in. I just want you to look at it and start to generate a little bit of action in your brain about it.

    So: preview the content a few minutes before class. Just look at it. And then when you come to class—in the P1 courses—I do preface the activities with some lecture. So I'm like, “Okay, here's the terms we're going to use. Here's some framework for you to build on.” And then I—wean them off of that over time. But because they need some foundation, I give them some content.

    Then for the group activities—my advice is to come to participate. You have the time set aside. You’re paying for that time. It is for learning. So use it. Use your classmates. Use me. Don’t squander it by shopping on Amazon or whatever distraction. Use the time because you will learn during that time—and it will be easier than trying to learn later in your apartment on your own.

    Michele Williams

    Amen.

    Stacey Brown

    I always liken it to going to the gym. You've paid a personal trainer. You go to the gym. And you're just standing off to the side watching, not doing anything. What a waste.

    And we talk even on the first day of biochemistry about skill‑building: Who plays a sport? Who plays an instrument? Who does technical crafts? And getting them to think about how they learned those things: by doing them. Not by reading about them.

    Same applies here. You can’t just read the book and get the same level of understanding that you would get if you actually do the work.

    Michele Williams

    Yeah. That makes so much sense. And I concur with you. Students underestimate sometimes the value in previewing the work before class. They are saving so much time and getting so much more out of class by priming their brain.

    Trying to learn the same amount later at home isn’t the same—and it won’t stick as well.

    Stacey Brown

    Yeah. It just feels better to know what’s going on. It feels terrible to walk into a room where everyone else seems to know what’s happening and you don’t. You can prevent that feeling.

    Michele Williams

    It’s like one of those bad dreams where you show up not wearing shoes or something.

    Stacey Brown

    Right. And you're the only one. You’re not ready.

    Dan VanZant

    Is this exam day one?

    Michele Williams

    Yeah. Well, thank you so much. This has been a great conversation, and we really appreciate your time today. Thanks so much for joining us.

    Stacey Brown

    All right. Thank you.

     

     

    25 min
  • Episode 11 - What to expect in Infectious Disease with Dr. David Cluck

    On this episode, Dan and Michele talk with Dr. David Cluck, Associate Professor in the Department of Pharmacy Practice at ETSU Gatton College of Pharmacy.  He specializes in Infectious Diseases Pharmacotherapy, and is the course coordinator for the Infectious Diseases course in the Integrated Series  Dr. Cluck shares his advice for success in this challenging course! 

    Transcript:


    Dan Vanzant

    Welcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode, we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty to pharmacists. We're your hosts, Dan Vanzant, and I'm—

    Michele Williams

    Doctor Michele Williams. Today we'll be talking with Doctor David Cluck, associate professor in the Department of Pharmacy Practice. He specializes in infectious diseases pharmacotherapy and is the course coordinator for the ID course in the integrated series here at Gatton, which students take in fall of their P2 year. Doctor Cluck maintains a clinical pharmacy practice with the Infectious Diseases Consult Service at Johnson City Medical Center.

    In this episode, we'll talk with Doctor Cluck about his course and get some advice on how students can get the most out of it. Welcome to White Coat Radio, Doctor Cluck.

    David Cluck

    Thank you. Thank you for having me.

    Michele Williams

    So let's talk about your course a little. Some students can be a bit intimidated by ID. What makes this content so challenging?

    David Cluck

    I think that it's challenging for a number of reasons. I think that the transition from the P1 to P2 year, which we're going to talk about, is pretty staggering for a lot of students. You sort of delve into clinical‑based scenarios. The clinical questions—I think that alone probably intimidates students the most—is the questions and just not being familiar with how to approach those types of questions.

    Michele Williams

    The dreaded case‑based question.

    David Cluck

    The case‑based questions, yeah. And then I think the material in and of itself is just difficult. I think it's not something that—most students have seen Medical Micro, but that may have been some time ago. And then to look at it through a clinical lens, I think, makes it all the more difficult.

    And then I tell students in the course, usually in the first week, it's a lot of volume. It's a lot of volume, especially in the first exam. You need to spend a lot of time with it. It's a lot of memorization. So dividing up your studying and having good study habits—that’s revisiting over time leading up to the exam.

    But I think all those things kind of collapse into one and make it a really challenging, challenging content, challenging course. I don't know—I think every student's different. I think every student probably looks at it differently. Some students might not have the same fear about case‑based questions. They may be good test takers. But the content again in and of itself is still a challenge for a lot of people.

    Michele Williams

    It’s a course—from my experience working with students—where it's a bad idea to get behind.

    David Cluck

    I would agree. Yeah, I would agree. I try to tell students as well, don’t wait until a couple of days before the exam. I think this is a course that—so many students find out their study habits leading up to ID and then subsequent integrated series courses—you can't do the same things and get away with studying for 2 or 3 days really hard and skipping class and that be sufficient. So yeah, I agree it's a challenge.

    Dan Vanzant

    Yeah. So, what P1 course or courses are most connected to ID?

    David Cluck

    So I think the P1 course for me that's probably the most connected is probably not the one that's the most obvious. And I would say UTC. And the reason I think it's UTC is because I think that is the introduction where you start to see case‑based questions. Students have to reason through why selecting this therapy over other available therapies listed, and why it's correct and what's most correct.

    I think that's kind of a sneak peek as to what you get when you begin the integrated series. I do think immunology does kind of come back, but it's not realized until probably the P3 year when you get into HIV and some of the concepts in the IHOP course.

    Michele Williams

    So it sounds like that memorization—the fundamental facts you learn at the very beginning of the course—does factor into being able to answer case‑based questions, because you have to apply what you know to a case.

    David Cluck

    I think so. I think that UTC, again, is kind of the first introduction into case‑based questions. Then you get into ID and you see really a lot of case‑based questions. And I often say—tell students—that once you make it through my course, prepare yourself for all subsequent courses because you're going to see case‑based questions in every other course moving forward.

    So I do think, yeah, there is application that they carry with them. Whether they fully appreciate that, I don't know. I do have students that come back to me—more so in the P4 year, not after the P3 year. In the P4 year, they appreciate what was talked about in ID. They say, “I’ve been on rotation and all those things we talked about in class—it’s been a little while—but it's kind of come full circle.”

    Michele Williams

    Well, you offered a really great segue to the next question, which is: What courses in the curriculum does ID prepare students for? So in the spring of P2 and then into the P3 year and P4.

    David Cluck

    I think the answer is all of them, at least in the integrated series. Because ID is essentially in every integrated series course. It presents itself in every course—to my knowledge. It might not be taught by me, but it is in every other course.

    And I think a few years back I remember hearing some students say that for IHOP in particular—don't neglect ID. It kind of represents itself. And if you've slept on it, well, it does present itself in the curriculum in our courses. But it's only in sort of bite‑size amounts.

    So I think some students might say, “Well, 7 to 10 questions versus 20 questions on neuro psych,” and so it's easy to say, “This is not my priority.” But I do think remembering concepts from ID is important through the didactic portion and especially important for rotations.

    One of the things I tell learners—I just told this to students recently—ID will find you. It doesn't matter where you go. You can avoid my rotation and go with Dr. Chair or Dr. Covert and I guarantee you'll see plenty of ID.

    So ID is important right at the beginning because it represents itself over and over again—even beyond the classroom.

    Michele Williams

    And I really liked what you touched on just a minute ago—counting up the number of questions represented by a subject. I think that can be a recipe for disaster. Saying “There are only five ID questions, so I'll focus on the others.”

    Well, ID will find you, as you just said.

    But also, that’s a grade‑based orientation versus a learning‑based orientation. You have to learn everything to be a competent pharmacist. So I’m glad you touched on that—because a lot of students use that strategy and then wind up coming to see me because they're not doing well in certain subjects.

    Michele Williams

    So, thank you for bringing that up.

    What are some things that you see students doing in class where you think, “Yes, that student is doing well,” and that bodes well for their grade? Are there things you see students doing that are a recipe for success?

    David Cluck

    I think the answer here is—I’m not really 100% sure. And I say that because there's so much heterogeneity. Everybody’s different—how people process things.

    Students come see me and say, “This is not sticking—what can I do?” So we walk through strategies. For some students it’s making note cards. But I usually say be wary of note cards—you can spend all your time making them and then have one day to use them. Not a great use of time.

    What I usually tell students—and it’s not their favorite answer—is: put it into your own system.

    If that means making study guides, rewriting notes, highlighting them—do what works for you. I had a student years ago with at least ten colors of highlighter. Everything highlighted. She’d come into my office and say, “Pink means this, blue means this…” If it works—great.

    But I can't say, “If you do this one thing, you'll be successful.” I don't have that.

    David Cluck

    Some students seek additional resources—bug‑drug guides, cheat sheets online. I would say that’s helpful for some, but be cautious. As a student, you don’t know what's good and what’s validated. Something may not line up with what’s in my notes—and then you're frustrated. I've seen that happen.

    I’m always happy to validate something and say, “Yes, use that,” or “No, don’t use that.” But ID sits in this tricky space—lots of info online, but not all of it is good.

    So my best answer is: it depends on the student.

    Michele Williams

    I agree—it depends on whether you're someone who processes by talking or by writing. Some students need time alone before joining a study group. Some jump right in. You have to know that about yourself.

    And yes—students can always come see me if they want help learning their learning style. We can talk through what’s worked before and adapt it.

    And I also agree about Quizlet. Using someone else's cards can be risky. They might match the notes—or they might reflect someone who made a D in the course.

    ID is one of those courses where if you don't know yourself as a learner, it’s time to figure that out fast.

    David Cluck

    Yeah. When I was a student, I didn’t really get the benefit of group learning until maybe P3. And I realized—I missed out. But you can’t come into a group having studied nothing. You won’t contribute—you’ll panic.

    I see that sometimes in review sessions—a day or two before the exam. Panic rising because there’s an area they didn’t spend time on.

    I endorse group learning—but you need to know where you are before engaging.

    Michele Williams

    It can have a counter‑effect otherwise.

    David Cluck

    It will not be good.

    Dan Vanzant

    Yeah—you can't ask other people during the test what they know. You’re by yourself.

    Michele Williams

    Right.

    Dan Vanzant

    So if I may—since I'm the ID person (instructional design, not infectious disease!)—do you have any tools that are your go‑to if you need to refresh your memory? Maybe something from when you were a student that stuck with you?

    David Cluck

    It’s a tricky question because the temptation for students is to download the Sanford Guide. And that’s just… too much. We live in a world where everything is an app now.

    When I was a student—this will make me sound old—we didn’t have all this. Smartphones existed, but the app ecosystem wasn’t what it is now. I carried the Sanford Guide around.

    But Sanford is too much for a P2 student. I would NOT purchase it yet.

    There are things out there that are good—Quizlet, ID Stewardship, bug‑drug charts online. But I don’t have one source I point to as “the thing.”

    And honestly—reach out to me. Email, Teams—whatever. Sometimes it's just better to come talk to me. Email can become a novella. It’s easier in person.

    Last year I had structured hours where students could come in. I’ll do that again. I also hold review sessions before most exams. And students who’ve been through ID will tell you: go to the review session.

    I’m always mystified that it’s not the whole class. But people have jobs and obligations, so it’s recorded. Still—you miss the chance to privately message questions.

    And that is something students love—anonymity. No one sees the question but me. And if one student has the question—ten others do too.

    Michele Williams

    I love that. Students really do struggle to ask a question when they think they’re the only one. The private message option is brilliant.

    And you're right—when several people ask the same question, that tells the instructor something. It helps us see where the gap is. Students don’t always realize that their questions help us teach better.

    David Cluck

    Yeah. I can usually tell in person from body language. Zoom made that harder. But in class—I can see on their faces when something isn't landing.

    Dan Vanzant

    Shifting in the seat, yeah.

    David Cluck

    Yes.

    Michele Williams

    Do you have any other questions, Dan?

    Dan Vanzant

    Nope, I'm good.

    Michele Williams

    Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Doctor Cluck. This has been great. And I learned some things about ID that I’m filing away for future reference. And thanks so much—we’ll see you next time.

    David Cluck

    Sounds good. Thanks for having me.

     

    26 min
  • Episode 10 - Meet our Student Pharmacists from Puerto Rico

    Bienvenidos al White Coat Radio! a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy, in Johnson City, Tennessee. In this episode, Dan and Michele talk with Gatton student pharmacists from the beautiful island of Puerto Rico to learn more about why they chose Gatton. 

    Transcript:

    Dan Vanzant

    Bienvenidos al White Coat Radio podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode, we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. I'm one of your hosts, Dan Vanzant.

    Michele Williams

    And I'm Doctor Michele Williams. And today we'll be talking with Gatton student pharmacists Gilary Cortes Oliveras, Yareliz Pellot Soto, and Janer Torres Ramirez, and all of them come from sunny and beautiful Puerto Rico. So welcome, everybody.

    Hillary

    Thank you.

    Yareliz

    Thank you.

    Janer

    Thank you for having us.

    Dan Vanzant

    All right. So let's get started by each of you just telling us a little something about yourself.

    Janer

    Well, as was said, my name is Luis Janer, pharmacy student, as you know. But I come from a rural area in Puerto Rico, in the mountains—private farm, privately owned farm. And so even though I feel like I'm pretty extroverted, I was raised in an introverted environment, I guess. But I like to do other stuff. I like drawing, I like to work on cars, and to play the guitar—a lot of instruments. I used to be in a musical group when I was back in my college in Puerto Rico, at the University of Puerto Rico Río Piedras campus. And that taught me a lot, not only in the area of music but in discipline. And so, yeah—that's part of why I'm here too. But that's a long story.

    Michele Williams

    Well, thank you.

    Yareliz

    Well, that's hard to follow.

    Dan Vanzant

    laughs

    Yareliz

    So I'm Yareliz. I'm from the west coast of Puerto Rico. I love the beach. I am shy, but I love—I'm a people person. I really enjoy talking to everyone.

    Janer

    You're also with all the organizations, right?

    Yareliz

    Yeah. I love to be in all the organizations—well, most of them. I'm in a fraternity, part of the leadership committee. I belong to SNAPhA, to CPFI—that’s the Christian organization—the fraternity PDC, and I'm part of the directive committee.

    Michele Williams

    Nice.

    Yareliz

    It's me.

    Dan Vanzant

    And if you wouldn't mind—what year is each of you in the program? Are you all in the same year?

    Janer

    Well, I'm P1.

    Yareliz

    I'm in my second year.

    Gilary

    Hi. My name is Gilary. I'm the last one. I'm P2. I'm also from Puerto Rico. Of course. I was born and raised in Manatí. I have almost all my family there, so that's kind of hard for me. Normally I am introverted, but I always put myself out there even if it's uncomfortable for me. And I love to talk with people, so probably you'll see me normally quiet, but when you know me, I cannot stop talking. I'm also, like, the realest—I’m in most of the organizations. And I'm part of Phi Delta Chi too. I love to spend time with my family, friends, and read. I love to read as many books as I can, but I don't have a lot of time now.

    Michele Williams

    I was gonna ask—if you've been doing a lot of reading for pleasure lately.

    Gilary

    Like, yeah—now we read papers.

    Dan Vanzant

    And we do.

    Yareliz

    And we love traveling.

    Gilary

    Oh yeah, that is probably the most important thing. I love to travel. I met Yari one year ago—one year and a half—and I have traveled with her more than I’ve traveled with any other person, so I'm happy with that.

    Michele Williams

    That's nice. Well, thanks so much for those introductions. And let's talk a little bit about pharmacy school and what has been your favorite course so far in pharmacy school. And Gilary, we'll start with you—tell us what you enjoy about it.

    Gilary

    Okay. So when I was thinking about this—because this is like a normal question that people ask and I'm always struggling, like, what will it be? But I say like the first one… and the one that made me choose Gatton probably. Or one of the reasons that I chose Gatton was for the interprofessional careers that we have here. I really enjoy meeting people from other—
    disciplines.

    Michele Williams

    Disciplines.

    Gilary

    Disciplines—like med school, nursing, or even I have, personally, my small group that is speech therapy. So it's very good for me to learn about these other disciplines and now know how to work with them. So I really liked that. And I will say that is my favorite.

    Michele Williams

    How about you, Yareliz?

    Yareliz

    Well, this is hard for me because I found so many classes so interesting. I loved all the interprofessional classes we have. But like—one of the reasons I chose pharmacy school was because you're an accessible health care provider. So one of the classes that I enjoyed the most was the OTC class. I was able to learn—for example, everyone takes Tylenol, everyone takes Advil, but you never read the instructions because it's something everyone takes. But then you can instruct people: “Oh, you shouldn’t take more than this,” or “If you have this, you should not take it.” I thought it was very interesting in applying and helping others.

    Michele Williams

    So it sounds like you learn a lot about everyday products that people take for granted, but there's a lot more to it. Exactly right. We might need to talk later.

    Dan Vanzant

    Yeah, yeah.

    Michele Williams

    How about you, Janer?

    Janer

    Well, in my limited experience here in Gatton—only being in one semester and half of the spring semester—I can safely say that my favorite class by far has been anatomy. I just love understanding how the body works and all the systems, how they work together to form this working body.

    To me, that's very interesting, very amazing. Before coming here, I knew I loved anatomy. And I've been told by some doctors I know that I should have gone to be a physician. Yes.

    So I really like anatomy. But I also kind of like the physical pharmacy class, or what they call DDS. But that was probably mainly because it was Dr. Digavalli doing the class, and I found it absolutely wonderful—the way he taught, the tutoring he did. It was just wonderful.

    And I really enjoyed that class as well. And obviously, like I said, I like anatomy—but then Dr. Pond… you combine anatomy with Dr. Pond and she’s going to make a great class. And I really enjoyed that one. That’s my favorite.

    Michele Williams

    Yeah, it does sound great. Makes me want to sit in on those classes more.

    Dan Vanzant

    Yeah, yeah. See what Dr. Digavalli is doing in the class.

    Michele Williams

    Yeah.

    Dan Vanzant

    So you all have mentioned inside the class what your favorite classes are. What's been a good experience you've had outside of the classroom?

    Yareliz

    For me, I haven't been able to do a lot because we don't have a lot of free time. But all the hiking trails nearby—I’ve been able to do, I think, three. A professor recommended a whole list of trails and things I should know about Johnson City or nearby.

    So it's definitely not the same as Puerto Rico, but Johnson City has its own thing. And it's been nice—at least the trails.

    Gilary

    I will say the same, because we are like a package. When I see Yari, I'm behind.

    Yareliz

    So yesterday, a professor told us, “Oh, it's funny because when I see one, I see the other.”

    Dan Vanzant

    Really? laughs

    Gilary

    So I will say the same. But also—I love to cook. So every time we have an exam or something, I go to Yari’s house and I cook for them. That is something good to do outside the classroom without any stress—or at least having a break from the stress.

    I just like to be here. I find Johnson City very close to my home in Puerto Rico. I live in a place called Monte Bello, which translates to “beautiful mountains,” and in Johnson City we have a lot. So I feel like home on that side.

    Janer

    Especially in the summer. Summer looks a lot like Puerto Rico.

    Gilary

    Oh yeah.

    Janer

    Well, in my case, I've done so many things, I can't even start to list them here. But just to name a few—we actually went outdoor laser tagging with the girls and the fraternity. We did mini golf. I've gone to the trampoline park. I've done axe throwing. I went to Gatlinburg and saw WonderWorks, and went through… what was that?

    Gilary

    Anakeesta?

    Janer

    Anakeesta! I went to Anakeesta—I love it.

    Yareliz

    You didn't see bears.

    Janer

    I didn't see bears, but I wish I had. It's just very fun to go there.

    And the area around Johnson City—

    the reason I picked Johnson City intentionally before coming here is because of the access to all the things it has. It's big enough to have everything you want, but small enough for people to be kind and for there not to be high crime rates or anything. I really, really like the city. And who knows—maybe I’ll end up staying here after I finish the degree. So yeah—I actually really like it here.

    Michele Williams

    Nice. So as all of you know, Gatton has the PEER‑E2 program funded by the Tennessee Board of Regents. PEER‑E2 stands for Promoting Engagement, Excellence and Retention for students whose first or best language is not English.

    Funds from the program have allowed us to travel to Puerto Rico to recruit students. And Gilary and Yareliz have been members of the recruitment team, and Janer is one of the students we had the good fortune to recruit.

    So let's start with the students who have traveled to Puerto Rico as part of the recruitment team. Tell us what that has been like.

    Gilary

    For me, it has been a very beautiful and excellent experience. I've been to Puerto Rico with the recruitment trip twice, and every time is a different experience. The first time we went with Rochelly—she’s a P4—and we had an amazing experience. We had the opportunity to visit not only schools but also specialty pharmacies in Puerto Rico. And that was a very cool experience.

    Before going on that first trip, I didn’t know we had so many specialty pharmacies close to San Juan. That changed me—I’m now looking at that pathway, maybe when I finish my PharmD.

    The second time was amazing too. We visited more schools. You have a unique opportunity to talk about your experiences to other students who maybe only think about Puerto Rico and don’t think about the other opportunities we have in the States. It’s very cool to talk with them and see the interest in their eyes.

    Yareliz

    For me, it was my first time going this year, and the experience was awesome. Going back to my alma mater and talking with undergrads—and remembering when I was there too. Even though I hate the spotlight and it’s way out of my comfort zone, it felt so good talking about the school and my experience.

    Michele Williams

    And remind us again—what is your alma mater?

    Yareliz

    Inter American University of Puerto Rico.

    Michele Williams

    Okay.

    Yareliz

    Tigers!

    Dan Vanzant

    Yeah!

    Yareliz

    The students were so engaged. They asked so many questions. They wanted to know much more. Because in Puerto Rico we only have two options for pharmacy school, and they’re both in the capital area. So you don’t really consider going outside of Puerto Rico. We're very family‑oriented, and being far from family is scary. We don’t consider outside, mostly.

    But they wanted to know more—

    “How have you been doing?”
    “What did you do to get here?”
    Because usually you think graduate school is so hard it’s impossible. Then they realize it’s not impossible. And they can relate to us.

    Janer

    She said a lot of things I wanted to say. Even though I've never been on a recruitment trip, I’ve had experience recruiting. I have two friends—one still applying, one recently accepted and already doing the paperwork to get here next year.

    Gatton made it easier because the things this college offers are so different from my experience—so different from other colleges I applied to—it’s easy to convince people to come here. Not just because of the college, but the area and the staff. Everyone here is so wonderful and welcoming.

    In Puerto Rico, we think entering pharmacy school is extremely hard because there are only two schools, and both are in the top ten hardest to enter in the U.S. So we think that’s what pharmacy school is everywhere. And since we're family‑oriented, we don’t want to leave.

    But once I tell them how possible it is—and how accepting the staff is—they’re blown away. They try it for themselves and end up liking it. I hope one day I can make the trip too. That would be awesome.

    Michele Williams

    Yeah, that would be awesome. So tell us a little bit about what your P1 year has been like. It's coming to an end before you know it.

    Janer

    Well… the P1 year has been—and I don't want anyone to misinterpret this—way easier than I expected. And the reason is that when I was at the University of Puerto Rico Río Piedras campus—the biggest campus—I actually had a harder time getting through my bachelor’s. Not because the classes were hard, but because of everything going on.

    Puerto Rico was going through riots, earthquakes, hurricanes Irma and Maria… the governor was thrown out. There was always something happening. And I still had to study on top of that.

    One thing I wanted when picking schools was a place that would limit distractions. And that alone made it so much easier to focus on what I needed to focus on—studying. That’s why it’s been easier in my P1 year.

    Michele Williams

    That makes so much sense. A lot of students don’t realize that studying and class rigor is just the beginning—life is still happening. You still have things to manage while you're in pharmacy school. So that’s a very interesting perspective. Thank you for sharing that.

    Janer

    That's why I feel like most Puerto Ricans are probably prepared to deal with the things they have to deal with here. We've already gone through so much, and we still had to study on top of it—and keep up with homework and grades. A lot of them—if they've done a science degree—they're probably prepared to deal with a pharmacy degree.

    Michele Williams

    Are there any other things you'd like to share about your experience at Gatton? So I talked a little bit with Kwaku before this—he’s our graduate assistant—and he gave me some good advice about questions to ask.

    He said to ask you all:

    What information do you need to know coming to pharmacy school, and what information is just good to know?

    Gilary

    I will probably say one of the most important things—at least for me, and I’m still working on that—is finding the best way to study. That made me struggle. I'm still learning what the best way to study is, because not all classes are going to be the same way. And you have to adjust that for each class. So probably if you find the best way to study the first year, the first semester, that will be great.

    Michele Williams

    Great. Thank you. I can help with that too.

    Yareliz

    Yeah. So absolutely—I'm still struggling on how to study because every professor is different. In one class, we can have multiple professors, and one study way is not going to be the same for another class or professor. So you need to get comfortable with change, I guess.

    Michele Williams

    That’s a good point.

    Janer

    Well, in my case—again, I only went through one semester, so I don't have too much experience. But I can say the earlier you get used to the methods the professor uses to teach, the better it will be in the long run. Don't wait too long to get used to how the professor teaches and how you're supposed to study for the class.

    Be quick about getting there. And when you do get there, it will feel much more consistent.

    Gilary

    Probably—don’t be nervous or shy about asking for help. Here, I learned a lot of things, and one of the things I’m very grateful for is the faculty. They have given me a lot of things to get better. Even when I was in Puerto Rico, I never had a person who was like, “Hey, are you doing good?” or “Do you need help?”

    So for me it was very difficult to say, “Hey, I need help. This is happening, and I don't know how to deal.” So probably—if you come here with an open mind, saying, “Okay, this is not going well, I need to ask for help”—please do it. Because they have the tools to help you. And they will help you.

    Michele Williams

    Great. That’s all really good advice.

    Dan Vanzant

    Could you give examples of the different teaching styles—how you've had to pivot from one class or professor to another?

    Gilary

    I would say for us—now that we are in P2—cardio has a lot of professors. So sometimes the way they ask the questions is kind of hard. Also in renal, we have like three different professors. And sometimes when we do something like, “Okay, this is not that good,” we go to the professor to ask what's happening. And they say, “You did good in these questions from this professor, but this professor is the one where you’re not doing well.” So my biggest thing is—some professors are more superficial, some are more specific. So you have to know which specifics you need to deal with.

    Dan Vanzant

    Okay.

    Yareliz

    For me—for example—we try everything. Teach someone else, or have someone else teach the class. Take notes, don’t take notes. Do a study guide, do flashcards. Everyone learns differently.

    In cardio, with some professors, it’s me and Gilary—we study our material apart, then we come together and say, “Did you understand this?” If I understand it, I explain it to her. If she understands, she explains it to me. In undergrad, I studied by myself because I didn’t have classes with the same people and I was shy. But at the beginning of P1, that didn’t work. Then we started studying together—and that helps the most.

    Also, for renal—I bought a whiteboard bigger than I expected for my home. Writing things down and doing diagrams helped me a lot. For other classes, I do a study guide in Word so I can make things prettier.

    So it all depends on each individual and each professor.

    Michele Williams

    Thank you.

    Janer

    Yeah. Like they said—we have professors that like to teach in a broad spectrum, and others who like very narrow, specific teaching. You have to be fast at recognizing what type of professor you're dealing with and what type of questions they will give.

    One thing I like about Gatton is—they give out a lot of quizzes. They’re meant for practice. Yes, they’re graded, but they help you understand the professor’s question format. When the test comes, you already know what to expect.

    The hardest classes are the ones that don’t do quizzes—only lectures. When the test comes, you don’t know what to expect. So if a class doesn’t have quizzes, be careful. Those tend to be perceived as harder.

    Dan Vanzant

    Interesting. Thanks.

    Michele Williams

    Well, this has been great. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences and advice for future students. And thank you so much for coming today.

    Janer

    Thank you for having us.

    Yareliz

    Thank you for having us today. And now that you mentioned advice, I just thought of something. Sorry! So like, in general—not in regard to classes—I would advise everyone thinking about pharmacy school to not let fear dictate your decisions. I’m not saying don’t be scared… the best decisions of my life, I've made them dead scared. Even if it's scary—if it's what you want—at least try it.

    Michele Williams

    Yeah. That’s really good advice.

    Janer

    I think we should say adios then. Like, together.

    Dan Vanzant

    Yeah.

    Michele Williams

    Do you have something you'd like to say in Spanish?

    Janer

    Oh, yeah.

    Dan Vanzant

    Maybe Michele can translate it later. laughs

    Michele Williams

    That's right.

    Janer

    Sigue tus sueños.
    Follow your dreams.

    Gilary

    Yeah… I don’t know. I will say, like—

    Michele Williams

    Say it to your friends and family.

    Gilary

    Muchas veces se nos hace difícil tomar decisiones por el miedo, como dijo Yareliz, pero si empiezas y tomas el primer paso, después de que estás aquí, todo se hace un poco más sencillo, y en el camino encuentras personas que van a hacer que tu camino sea mucho mejor, así que no tengas miedo.
    (ENG: A lot of times we find it difficult to make decisions because of fear, like Yareliz said, but if you start and take the first step, then after you are here, everything becomes simpler, and on the way you will find people who will make your path much better, so don’t be afraid.)

    Dan Vanzant

    Just beautiful. Yeah.

    Michele Williams

    Awesome.

    Yareliz

    The only thing that comes to mind…
    Donde Dios guía, Él provee.
    Where God guides, He provides.

    Janer

    So it sounds like it even rhymes in English.

    Dan Vanzant

    That's good.

    Dan Vanzant

    That’s awesome.

    Michele Williams

    Well done, y’all.

    Dan Vanzant

    Yeah.

    Janer

    Adios, on three.

    All

    ¡Adios!

     

    34 min
  • Episode 9 - Managing stress and anxiety while in pharmacy school with Dr. Lori Mills

    This episode features Dr. Lori Mills, a clinical psychologist who is an expert on mood and anxiety disorders, as well as positive psychology. In addition, she provides counseling services to our student pharmacists at ETSU Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy. Dr. Mills shares valuable advice on how to manage stress and anxiety in order to thrive in pharmacy school.

    Transcript:

    Michele Williams

    Welcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode, we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. I'm your host, Doctor Michele Williams. In this episode, we'll be talking with Doctor Lori Mills, a licensed clinical psychologist in the state of Tennessee.

    Michele Williams

    She's an expert on mood and anxiety disorders, positive psychology, and counseling. She's a professor at Milligan University. And fortunately for us, Doctor Mills provides counseling services to our student pharmacists here at Gatton. Doctor Mills, welcome to White Coat Radio.

    Lori Mills

    Thank you very much. I'm glad to be here.

    Michele Williams

    Well, I'm really glad we have this chance to talk to you today because you are an amazing resource for our students. But you and I rarely have a chance to chat this way, and so there are a lot of things I've always wanted to ask you. So before we begin talking about students, can you tell us a little bit about your background and what led you to a career as a psychologist?

    Lori Mills

    Sure. I am probably one of those rare people who decided in high school that I wanted to be a psychologist. And I'm from a very small town in Illinois, very small high school. So I never had a psychology class in high school, but I went to Milligan University—actually was where I did my undergrad—and I was a psychology major from day one. Never changed my major, never veered off of that. And then as I prepared to go to graduate school, I didn't know whether I wanted to be a licensed clinical social worker, like a professional counselor, marriage and family therapist, whatever. But one of my professors just kind of steered me towards clinical psychology, and that's where it went. And I think sometimes I say I had a friend who had a very traumatic accident the summer before my senior year, and that kind of solidified my senior year in high school. That kind of solidified that I can be around people going through really difficult things and enjoy—maybe the wrong word—but giving support in that kind of situation. So that sort of solidified, I think, my interest in psychology and doing therapy in particular.

    Michele Williams

    So you had that sense that you had that skill, that ability in you to support people in that way. Well that's awesome. I'm really glad that you do. How long have you worked with pharmacy students again?

    Lori Mills

    So it has been about six years. I was thinking about this. It's been since the spring of 2016.

    Michele Williams

    Okay. And what has that been like?

    Lori Mills

    It's been very fulfilling. I have really enjoyed it. I'm like a lot of other people who go into clinical psychology. I thought, oh, I'm going to have my own private practice. That's what everyone thinks they're going to do. And then you realize how tough that is to build your own client base and all that kind of thing. So anyway, I fell in love with teaching undergraduate psychology, and that really has been the bulk of my career. But later in my life, I really think I've gotten better at doing therapy. I had to kind of get comfortable in my own skin and I think more confident and self‑assured. And I think I'm a better therapist than when I was a younger person.

    Michele Williams

    You never think about that with therapists. I don't think that they have a learning trajectory too. And they have to get comfortable as well. So being accepted into pharmacy school is a huge achievement, obviously, but it comes with stressors and responsibilities and demands that are not always easy to cope with. If I'm a student pharmacist who's starting to feel pressure in pharmacy school, how do I know it's time to reach out to you?

    Lori Mills

    Well, I think the first thing I would want to say is any time is a good time to reach out to me. I'm always happy to meet with any students. But more to the point of your question, I guess this question made me think of a common theme that runs through mental health and mental illness: when something becomes a problem is when it causes impairment or distress. And so how I would say that is impairment is if this thing that you're dealing with is interfering with your life or interfering with your academic performance, interfering with your relationships, interfering with getting out of bed in the morning. So that would be the impairment piece. And then the distress piece is just, you know, like, I'm feeling really sad. I'm feeling really anxious. I'm feeling irritable all the time. I'm having trouble controlling my anger. Those kinds of things would be the distress. So when either of those—you feel like, yeah, this isn't just something that's been going on for a couple of days, this is lingering and it's causing me problems—that would be a time that I think you say, okay, now's the time to reach out.

    Michele Williams

    That makes so much sense. So to just sort of use that as a kind of measure of, you know, how long has it been going on, and is it interfering?

    Lori Mills

    Yeah. And I think, for example—and I know we'll get into things like test anxiety probably later—but maybe a typical situation would be that someone might feel like, wow, I get anxious at test time. Well, most people do, okay? I mean, there's some degree. Yeah. So you are going to feel anxious around tests. But if it's: I can't sleep at all the night before I have a test, I vomit every morning when I have a test, and I have isolated myself from all my social contacts… okay, those are things that are saying this is not sustainable. This is taking away from the quality of your life. Like those kinds of things would be indicators that yes, this has gone beyond what you want to keep happening and something that you might want help with.

    Michele Williams

    So beyond just wanting to do really well, and I'm nervous.

    Lori Mills

    Right. Because I think the vast majority of people have some of that.

    Michele Williams

    Yeah. And what can a student expect when they make that first appointment with you? What is that going to be like?

    Lori Mills

    Okay. So generally they would have contacted me—and you go straight to me. You generally call me and let me know that you'd like to meet. And I work with you to make an appointment that works for you and for me. And then ETSU owns a house that is probably maybe a mile from the pharmacy school, and it's just in a neighborhood. And so I give you the address of that house, and you come there and meet me. And we meet for 45 or 50 minutes, something like that. That first appointment I generally ask more questions than I would at any other time, just trying to get to know students, asking them what brings you in, tell me a little bit about your family. I ask specific symptom questions to know sort of what they're dealing with. And by the end of the session I get around to, okay, let's try to narrow this down: what are your goals, what do you hope to get out of meeting with me? And then we talk about, okay, yes, that's definitely something we can work on. Because it's one thing to sort of go and pour out a lot of information, but then it's like, well, okay, we have to get some kind of focus to what we're doing and see how we can proceed from there.

    Michele Williams

    And so the goal setting, that's where you sort of figure out what the plan is—what you're going to do.

    Lori Mills

    Yeah.

    Michele Williams

    So one area of expertise—and you alluded to this just a minute ago—is anxiety. And just in the most general sense, what is anxiety? I mean, you hear people say I have anxiety, or test anxiety, or just, you know, I feel anxious. But actually, from your point of view, from an expert point of view, what is anxiety?

    Lori Mills

    I think the closest maybe synonym or word that we use interchangeably with anxiety would be worry. And I would call this anxiety excessive worry. It's funny because we use the word anxiety, or we say anxious, but then there's diagnosable anxiety that rises to the level of disorder. So anxiety—I think a certain amount of it is okay and actually preferable. If you had zero anxiety about starting pharmacy school or zero anxiety about starting your rotations or zero anxiety about a test, you're not going to prepare, you're not going to study, you're not going to perform at the level you need to. But that's not what most of us are dealing with. Most of us are dealing with: my anxiety has gone too far. It's too much. So that's when we sort of say, okay, what can we do to take the edge off of this? We're not trying to remove anxiety. Therapy is just not that magical to do that anyway. But that's not even what we're trying to get to. We're trying to bring it down to a manageable level—a level that's appropriate to the situation. So excessive worry about maybe a specific situation that then takes on these different physical symptoms—shortness of breath, muscle tension, fatigue—and then also cognitive and emotional symptoms like difficulty concentrating, irritability. When it starts to gather in those other kinds of symptoms, I think that's when it becomes more anxiety that's problematic, not just “I feel a little worried about my test.”

    Michele Williams

    Right. That makes sense. And just based on your experiences working with pharmacy students, what role do you see anxiety playing in the lives of pharmacy students?

    Lori Mills

    So I think for some people who maybe again, it's not super problematic, it plays the role of pushing them to work hard. So that's when anxiety is manageable and in check.

    Michele Williams

    It seems almost to me like conscientiousness. You know, if someone is conscientious, they worry what the professor thinks of them or how they're going to perform on an exam, and it seems to just come with the territory of someone who's a conscientious student.

    Lori Mills

    Well, even to put this in another context—if you think about, for example, a school teacher. A lot of people would say a school teacher should have anxiety their first day of school every year. And if they don’t, maybe it’s time to retire or something. If it’s the first day of school and you don't even worry—you just say, oh, I'll just take out my lecture from last year—you might not be invested. So I think yes, that level of anxiety: most people don’t need to worry about having enough. But you’re right, it’s more conscientiousness.

    But anxiety also unfortunately plays a very different role for some students. It causes difficulty studying, causes them to be preoccupied with negative thoughts, causes them to underperform, to second‑guess themselves on tests. Even more broadly, thoughts like: should I even be doing this, am I smart enough, do I belong here? So unfortunately I think it plays that role for some students.

    Michele Williams

    And it’s interesting you say that. Because when I talk with students and they're having difficulty performing on an exam or on a clinical rotation, I often hear them say, “I just drew a blank,” or, “I froze,” or, “I knew the answer but I couldn't say it.” And then after the exam they remember it. I sometimes suspect that might be anxiety.

    Lori Mills

    I think so too. For sure.

    Michele Williams

    Okay. And why do you think it's so common? Working with many different types of students over the years, I feel like anxiety is a pretty large part of some pharmacy students' lives.

    Lori Mills

    Yes. Let me say something about pharmacy students in particular, and then something broader.

    Pharmacy school involves high‑stakes testing. Other types of educational programs may spread grades across papers, presentations, projects—but pharmacy school is very heavily weighted toward tests. And you know you have to get a certain score to pass. Even licensing exams add to that pressure. Financial pressure also lingers in the background.

    Then on a broader level, I think our culture feeds anxiety. We live in an “age of anxiety.” We hear about every bad thing happening in the world and feel powerless. The 24‑hour news cycle has been widely discussed as harmful for mental health.

    And culturally, we're told we should be happy—and if we’re not, something’s wrong. If we just bought the right product, used the right planner, ate the right diet, decluttered the right things—we’d be happy. This pressure to be perfect contributes to anxiety.

    Michele Williams

    Yes, you're right. We feel pressure for everything to be going great, and life doesn't always work like that.

    Lori Mills

    I think we have—this is going off‑script—a cultural narrative that says we should work ourselves to exhaustion so that “one day” we can finally enjoy life.

    Like the story of the Mexican fisherman. He already had the life he wanted—simple, meaningful—but the Harvard MBA tried to convince him to build an empire so that someday he could retire and do exactly what he was already doing. That’s so much like American thinking. And it's unfortunate.

    Michele Williams

    It is. And it's easy to fall into that pattern, especially in pharmacy school.

    Lori Mills

    Yes.

    Michele Williams

    So we talked about anxiety in general—but what is test anxiety? And what tips do you have for helping with it?

    Lori Mills

    Test anxiety is extreme distress in testing situations that interferes with performance.

    There is a very high correlation between procrastination and test anxiety. It becomes a chicken‑and‑egg situation. If you procrastinate, you will feel unprepared, which leads to anxiety, which makes you feel overwhelmed, which leads to more procrastination.

    Sometimes underperformance gets labeled as test anxiety when lack of preparation is the real issue.

    I like to think of it like pain medication: doctors say “we have to get ahead of the pain.” You need to get ahead of the anxiety by preparing early.

    Michele Williams

    That is a great analogy. And you had some tips?

    Lori Mills

    Yes. The first is preparing a sufficient amount and studying over time rather than cramming. Spreading out studying reduces anxiety.

    Studying effectively is also important—Michelle helps students with that. Not just studying more hours, but studying in ways that actually work.

    Self‑care is crucial—sleep, nutrition, exercise, relationships, doing enjoyable things. This is a marathon, not a sprint. You can't deny yourself all self‑care for four years.

    Something I found recently that I like is a calming worksheet. On one sheet, you list meaningful quotes, reminders like “breathe deeply,” your goals, your supporters’ names—things that ground you.

    Deep breathing helps. Even taking one minute before a test to breathe in through your nose and out through your mouth slows you down.

    And refuting negative thoughts. When you’re really anxious, you're probably telling yourself extreme things like “I'm going to fail” or “I can’t do this.” These thoughts are not helpful. You need to have prepared statements like “I can do this,” “I’m prepared,” “I know this material.”

    You’re not trying to wipe out all negative thoughts or pretend everything is perfect—just nudging yourself away from the negative extremes.

    Michele Williams

    I love that. Being ready to respond to those thoughts makes so much sense.

    Lori Mills

    Right. I come from a cognitive‑behavioral perspective. A lot of people get anxious about having negative thoughts, which makes it worse. Sometimes you can just say, “I'll think about that later. Right now I need to look at this question.”

    Or, “That thought isn’t true because I’ve passed every other test.”

    Or, “Another way of seeing this is I won’t know every question, but I will know a lot of them.”

    Michele Williams

    That makes so much sense. So what advice would you give pharmacy students with regard to taking care of their psychological well‑being?

    Lori Mills

    One thing is: not everything should be about pharmacy school or the career of pharmacy. You need interests outside of that. You need friends outside of that. If your whole life is pharmacy school, everything will feel catastrophic when something goes wrong.

    Another thing is stepping back and taking a long‑range perspective. Yes, this is hard. It’s supposed to be hard. But you can get through it.

    Another important thing is seeking other people's feedback. Students get locked into their own narrative. They’re often afraid to talk to professors because they think the professor will judge them. But professors genuinely care. They want to help. So does Michelle, and so do many others.

    Don’t lose connections to people outside pharmacy school. Those relationships remind you who you are beyond grades.

    Michele Williams

    Yes. I think students don't always realize how many of us are willing listeners. If they see an open door, they can come talk to us. Ninety‑nine percent of the time, we'd be happy to talk.

    Lori Mills

    Students are more than their grades and test scores. One of my own students once implied that professors only liked the top performers best, and I thought, that's simply not true.

    Reaching out—even when it's scary—is important.

    Michele Williams

    Doctor Mills, thank you so much for the conversation today. It's been terrific—really helpful. A lot of things I don't think students realize about the resources they have here. Are there any other things you'd like to add?

    Lori Mills

    I would just add—doing things outside of school, like volunteering, is incredibly healthy. One of the most consistent findings in psychology is that helping others makes us feel better.

    Getting outside, participating in something bigger than yourself, doing life‑giving things… whatever those look like for you. Identify the activities that energize you and make sure you keep doing them throughout pharmacy school.

    Michele Williams

    I think that's great advice. And thank you so much for talking to us today and giving us great tips on maintaining good mental health, and what to do when the pressure is on and we may need a little extra help. Thank you so much for chatting with us.

    Lori Mills

    Appreciate you asking.


     

     

    30 min
  • Episode 8 - An introduction to Academic Affairs with Dr. David Stewart

    Michele and Dan continue the conversation with Dr. David Stewart, Interim Associate Dean of Academic Affairs and Institutional Excellence and Professor of Pharmacy, about his role as the head of Academic Affairs at ETSU Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy. In this episode, we discuss services the department provides including insights into academic progression and student course evaluations. 

    Transcript:


    Michele Williams

    Welcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City, Tennessee. Each episode we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. I'm one of your hosts, Doctor Michele Williams.

    Dan Vanzant

    And I'm Dan Vanzant. Today we'll be talking with Doctor David Stewart, interim associate dean of assessment and academic affairs and professor of pharmacy practice at Gatton. He specializes in cardiovascular pharmacotherapy. In this episode, we'll talk about Doctor Stewart's role as associate dean and learn more about how academic affairs serves the college and most importantly, our students. In particular, we're going to learn more about those course evaluations that students are asked to complete at the midterm and at the end of the semester—where they go and how they are used.

    Dan Vanzant

    Doctor Stewart, welcome to White Coat Radio.

    David Stewart

    Thank you, Dan. It's good to be here.

    Michele Williams

    So, Doctor Stewart, all three of us work in the Office of Academic Affairs—you as dean, Dan as our instructional design and technology manager, and I'm the academic specialist—but I'm not sure our listeners really know all that Academic Affairs does within Gatton College of Pharmacy. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

    David Stewart

    Yeah. So, you mentioned that I'm the interim associate dean, and I've been doing this role for about a year now. I have to admit, a year ago I don't think I knew all that Academic Affairs had within the College of Pharmacy. I was really fortunate to have some great folks in the office, and as you mentioned, everyone on the podcast here today is part of that office. We also have a director of assessment and institutional excellence, and an office coordinator. So it's a five‑person team.

    I would say the two biggest buckets based on the title would be:

    Academic Affairs covers things like curriculum, and then we have the assessment component. Assessment is really important for our accreditation efforts and also guides a lot of what we do here at the college—curricular design and improvements, etc.

    Other things we do include student success, academic progression, instructional design issues for the college, and housing office duties. So those are probably the big buckets.

    Dan Vanzant

    Great. So as I mentioned in the introduction, Academic Affairs is responsible for distributing the midterm and end‑of‑semester course evaluations—formative and summative evaluations. We always encourage students to complete those. But what happens with those evaluations behind the scenes? How are they created? And then what happens when students fill them out?

    David Stewart

    Yeah, that’s a great question. And I get the same questions from students about how these things are used. Oftentimes it's not even a question—it may be more of a comment: “Why would I fill these out? Nobody ever reads them. I don't think they ever use them. I never see anything change.”

    So I think from a student’s perspective, I can see why they would feel that way. What I really try to encourage students to understand—and what I tell them upfront—is how they are used, because I don't think we do a very good job of telling students what we do with the data they provide.

    When a student receives a course evaluation—the technical name is a student assessment of instruction (SAI)—we’re asking them about two things: the course and the faculty. There are specific questions for each faculty member and for the course as a whole.

    So who gets them?

    I get a copy in Academic Affairs. The faculty member gets a copy. And the department chair for the faculty member also gets a copy. Our faculty are in one of two departments: the Department of Pharmaceutical Sciences or the Department of Pharmacy Practice. Each department has a chair, and the chair is responsible for reviewing evaluations with faculty each year during annual evaluations.

    So these evaluations are used not only by faculty for feedback but also as part of their performance evaluation regarding teaching effectiveness.

    As a faculty member myself in Pharmacy Practice, our chair asks us to identify things we plan to change and to provide a written plan for improvements based on student feedback.

    I find this very helpful because students often point things out I may not appreciate or didn’t realize were happening.

    Students are often hesitant to complete evaluations because we ask for them before finals are due, but they are completely de‑identified and anonymous unless a student includes identifying info. The system anonymizes them immediately—we only get the responses.

    Dan Vanzant

    Okay. And did you mention this? Do any of those get added to accreditation documents?

    David Stewart

    Yes. Accreditation is one of those things—like in healthcare, where the Joint Commission accredits hospitals. If a hospital isn’t accredited, they can’t bill Medicare, and they’ll fail financially.

    Likewise, if a College of Pharmacy is not accredited, students cannot sit for the national board exams. So accreditation is essential.

    Our accreditors ask us to report on quality improvement and how we use assessment data. We have latitude in how we use our data, but we must always have ongoing quality assurance processes. Evaluations help us show how we collect and use assessment data, including examples of where students suggested things and we implemented changes—or where we developed alternative solutions aimed at curricular effectiveness.

    Students often feel like nothing changes because they typically won’t see the changes themselves. It's usually at least a full year before those changes happen—long after they’ve moved on and forgotten about the course.

    And sometimes changes are iterative; we might refine something over two or three years. Students may think “They’re still doing that!” when in fact we’re improving it each cycle.

    Michele Williams

    And they just haven't seen that evolution as it took place.

    David Stewart

    Right. By the time the final version comes out, they’ve graduated and are working.

    Dan Vanzant

    Do you think that’s true of formative evaluations too? That faculty often don’t make changes mid‑semester, even though the intent is to?

    David Stewart

    Great question—and yes, that may contribute to student frustration. Formative assessments—open‑ended feedback about what’s going well or not going well—are meant to allow short‑term changes.

    We usually try to do these around six weeks into the semester. Block courses complicate timing because they’re so short. If we don’t have good systems in place, we might miss the window.

    This year we asked faculty for the optimal timing for formative evals so feedback would be meaningful. That worked well.

    Best practice is for faculty to close the loop: tell students, “Here’s what I heard, here’s what I can change now, here’s what I may change in the future, and here’s what I can’t change and why.” Students need to feel heard, even if everything can’t change immediately.

    Summative evaluations are easier to analyze—Likert scales, trends, comments. We can identify consistent areas for improvement more clearly. But again, students themselves rarely see the results of their feedback because changes occur in the next offering or several offerings later.

    Dan Vanzant

    Feels like putting a message in a bottle and throwing it into the sea.

    Michele Williams

    But there is somebody who finds that bottle.

    Dan Vanzant

    That's right—future classmates behind you.

    Michele Williams

    Yes. Students may not see the benefit of their feedback, but they benefit from the feedback of those who came before them.

    David Stewart

    Absolutely. They are reaping the benefits of previous students’ suggestions, and future classes will benefit from theirs.

    Michele Williams

    And some students give great feedback, it must be said.

    Dan Vanzant

    As a faculty member, what types of feedback do you find most helpful?

    David Stewart

    Generalizations are helpful, but specific examples are even more helpful. If a student says, “Dr. Stewart could present information more clearly,” I don’t know what that means. But if they say, “For example, when he explains things with a picture on a slide it’s helpful, but when it’s just words, I struggle,” that’s actionable.

    If a student says expectations are unreasonable, that’s vague. But if they say, “There was too much pre‑reading—it took me this long—and the assignments took this long,” now I understand.

    Michele Williams

    So when students give open‑ended feedback, it helps if they include rich detail and an example.

    David Stewart

    Exactly.

    Michele Williams

    You also mentioned Academic Affairs oversees academic progression. Could you talk about that?

    David Stewart

    Academic progression can sound intimidating. But all students are monitored throughout their entire pharmacy education. Each semester, a committee reviews student grades and votes on progression.

    If a student earns a non‑passing grade, the committee evaluates what’s needed.

    You can’t be a pharmacist if you don’t master the content, so we must ensure competency.

    For some students, if they earn a D in one course, they may complete expedited remediation over the summer. Others may need to repeat the course. Students doing very poorly may be dismissed.

    The committee advises the dean. Academic Affairs oversees the administrative side—tracking, documentation, ensuring students are treated fairly and consistently.

    Our goal is to help students progress. Student success is part of our office. Your role, Dr. Williams, involves supporting students through tutoring, success plans, mentoring, and resources. Students are often hesitant to seek help, but once they do, they often say, “Why didn’t I do that sooner?”

    Michele Williams

    Yes. Many students don’t realize how much support exists and how invested we are in their success. Pharmacy school is very different from undergrad—but Gatton especially is a supportive environment.

    Dan Vanzant

    Their success is a measure of our success.

    David Stewart

    Exactly. And if a large number of students consistently struggle, that reflects on us too. Education is always changing. Students today are different from students 20 years ago. Society has changed, K–12 changes, undergraduate differences… we must constantly adapt how we teach. It’s a never‑ending refinement process.

    Michele Williams

    Yes. That’s part of what makes higher education interesting—it never stays the same.

    David Stewart

    The one thing that stays the same is that it’s always changing.

    Michele Williams

    Definitely. Do you have any other questions, Dan?

    Dan Vanzant

    No, I’m good.

    Michele Williams

    Well, Doctor Stewart, thank you so much for talking to us today about the role of Academic Affairs and all the different things our department does at Gatton. We appreciate it very much.

    David Stewart

    It was a pleasure being your guest. Thank you.

    Dan Vanzant

    Doctor Williams.

     

     

    22 min
  • Episode 7 - Tips for success in Cardiology with Dr. David Stewart.

    In this episode, Dr. David Stewart, Interim Associate Dean of Academic Affairs and Institutional Excellence and Professor of Pharmacy Practice, talks with Michele and Dan about the Integrated Series at ETSU Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy and offers important context and advice for success in his cardio course. 

    Transcript:


    Dan VanZant

    Welcome to White Coat Radio, a podcast from East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy in Johnson City. Each episode, we cover a wide range of topics about the pharmacy school experience, from study tips to deep dives with faculty and student pharmacists. I'm one of your hosts, Dan VanZant.

    Michele Williams

    And I'm Doctor Michele Williams. Today we'll be talking with Doctor David Stewart, interim associate dean of assessment and academic affairs and professor of pharmacy practice at Gatton. He specializes in cardiovascular pharmacotherapy and is the course coordinator for the Cardio course in the Integrated Series at Gatton, which students take in the spring of their P2 year. In this episode, we'll talk with Doctor Stewart about this very important and challenging course and get some advice on how to get the most out of it.

    Michele Williams

    Doctor Stewart, welcome to White Coat Radio.

    David Stewart

    Thank you. It’s good to be here.

    Dan VanZant

    So I think many students are a bit intimidated by your cardiovascular course—or “cardio,” as it's known. What do you think makes the course challenging? And should students be nervous about cardio?

    David Stewart

    Well, Dan, thanks for the question. I was kind of surprised when you said students are intimidated. Makes me sound like I'm a whole lot meaner than I think I am! Anyway, it is a transitional period for our students. As I talk with students going from P1 to P2 year, they’re beginning to transition from the foundational pharmacy science classes into more of the clinical courses.

    Their first experience with that will be the Integrated Series in the fall with the Pulmonary course and the Infectious Disease course—that’s about 4 to 5 credit hours of material from an Integrated Series or clinical pharmacy standpoint. Contrast that with the spring semester: when they return after winter break, they’ll have a five‑credit‑hour course in cardiovascular pharmacotherapy, a two‑credit‑hour renal course, and a two‑credit‑hour GI course.

    So for the semester, they’ll be focusing nine credit hours on clinical pharmacy practice and the pharmacology and medicinal chemistry associated with those disease states. That’s about 50% of their time in the classroom. Meaning at any given time, they are in two courses: cardio plus either renal or GI, depending on the half of the semester. That’s nine hours of material per week.

    Students sometimes think, “Oh, I have two classes to study for,” but they must think: “This is half of my curriculum.” They need to spend about half of their study time devoted to these courses.

    Michele Williams

    That makes so much sense. I've never thought about it that way before, but that's a really important note for time management—to think of it as, “I should devote at least half of my study time to these courses.”

    David Stewart

    Well, and Doctor Williams, I’m not surprised you say that, because when I ask students on day one—while we're going over the content of the course—and I ask about credit hours, I realize students often don’t appreciate what a credit hour means. There’s a criterion behind it. So I explain on day one: allocate time based on credit hours. One credit hour doesn’t deserve as much time as a five‑credit‑hour course.

    And also—they cannot get behind in a five‑credit‑hour course. If you think about compounding interest, time compounds like interest. If you put it off until the first exam at the end of month one, you're going to be so far behind, you’ll be in a very deep hole.

    Michele Williams

    That's really good advice—to be proactive and think about it that way. So at this moment, we're at the end of the fall semester. If I’m a student listening before cardio begins—or maybe I’m a P1 thinking about my P2 year—what’s the best way to prepare? What can students do to be ready for cardio?

    David Stewart

    One of the biggest challenges students face is the mindset of making a grade, achieving a bar, then compartmentalizing and moving on. It's understandable—they’ve been doing that for years. But in pharmacy school, you must apply foundational sciences. You build on them continuously.

    If a student asked me in December how to get ready for a course that begins in January, I’d say: understand the cardiovascular system. How does the heart work? How does the vascular system work? Blood flow, basic anatomy, heart physiology, contractility, action potentials.

    Knowing those fundamentals makes it easier to understand arrhythmias and antiarrhythmic drugs.

    Number one thing:

    Blood flow through the heart, coronary arteries, vascular system.

    We’ll talk about stroke, VTE disease, venous and arterial vasculature.

    Coagulation is also important—we discuss anticoagulants like warfarin and the DOACs (apixaban, rivaroxaban) versus antiplatelets like aspirin.

    Students need to understand mechanistically how these drugs work.

    Michele Williams

    That’s interesting.

    Dan VanZant

    Yeah. I never really thought about that before.

    Michele Williams

    So would you say it would be a good idea for a student who struggled with the cardio aspects in physiology to go back through that chapter and review it?

    David Stewart

    Absolutely. Physiology of the cardiac system would be very worth your time.

    Second—review the Top 300 cardiovascular medications. There are roughly 75 drugs from the top 300 that we discuss. Knowing the class, generic/brand names—that gives students a leg up when we begin discussing pharmacology, mechanisms, etc.

    Dan VanZant

    Makes sense with the drug cards.

    Are there any apps you recommend for review?

    David Stewart

    Great question. I remember getting a PalmPilot in 2001 and thinking it was incredible. Today, we have smartphones—everything is apps. But somewhere around the 2nd or 3rd generation iPhone, I realized technology was moving faster than I was. I used to love it, but now I only use what I need to do my job.

    And honestly, I use less technology today than 10–12 years ago because it can distract students. So instead of apps, I recommend learning how to learn.

    Read books on academic success, or how to teach yourself material. On day one, I tell students: here is my responsibility as faculty, here is your responsibility as a student.

    My job: facilitate learning.

    Your job: apply yourself and learn the material—not memorize and regurgitate slides. Students who survive on memorizing slides haven't truly learned foundational skills.

    If students recognize they are not using good study skills, cardio is a great opportunity to fix that.

    If I could get away with it, I’d throw PowerPoint away and go back to handwritten notes. When I hand‑wrote notes, I learned better. PowerPoint often becomes someone else’s way of thinking—not your own.

    Michele Williams

    I agree. And handwriting notes is supported by cognitive science. Writing things down starts the encoding process. It's why you remember your grocery list even when you leave it at home.

    And it’s more efficient to shop when you create a list.

    David Stewart

    Exactly.

    Michele Williams

    I also have a question about case‑based questions. Cardio requires students to apply what they know. By cardio, they’ve already had some courses with these questions, but students still struggle with them—even P3s. And NAPLEX uses these sorts of questions. How can students become more adept?

    David Stewart

    Great question. And I’ll be blunt: our society wants cheap, fast, easy. But learning clinical material requires time and deep engagement.

    Students say:

    “I struggle with Integrated Series because of the case questions.”

    So I ask:

    Do you understand the material?
    Or do you only think you understand it?

    I often pull up exam reports with Bloom’s taxonomy tagging. Students will say they know the basics but struggle with application. But when we look at basic recall questions—classifications, mechanisms—they miss those too. So they think they know it, but they don’t.

    It’s like sports. You don’t learn piano by reading about it. You don’t practice only on the weekend and expect to perform well.

    Students often misuse practice tools. They click through quizzes fast, eliminating answers. They get the correct answer the third time and say, “See? I knew it!”—but they didn’t learn.

    Correct method:

    1. Take the quiz slowly—as if it’s an exam.
    2. Justify why each option is wrong or right.
    3. If you get it wrong, go back to notes or textbook.
    4. Retake it only after reviewing the content.

      5. Another tool is the Pharmacotherapy Casebook. Students hate it because there’s no answer key. But that’s the point. Like a clinician, you must think through it.

      Michele Williams

      Yes—flashcards and Quizlet can cause illusions of competence. When the answer is close to the question, you don’t struggle—and struggle is how learning happens.

      David Stewart

      Exactly.

      And another disconnect: students don’t understand the federal definition of a credit hour. For every 1 hour in class, you must spend 2 hours out of class. Minimum. Most students don’t.

      They need to budget their time like money. Pencil study blocks into a calendar.

      Students try to read slides seven times in 20 minutes instead of spending two hours in deep work. They avoid cases because they “take too long.” But deep learning requires that time.

      And distractions make it even harder. Social media apps are engineered to steal attention with dopamine hits. Research shows:

      When you get distracted, it takes 25 minutes to fully refocus.

      Turn phone to silent. Mute laptop notifications. Focus for an hour, then reward yourself with a 5‑minute break.

      When I was in school, the library had no phones, no distractions. Students today are at a disadvantage—they have to create their own quiet.

      Michele Williams

      I agree completely.

      Dan VanZant

      So in summary: unplug, get some books, study deeply.

      David Stewart

      Exactly. I’m a huge proponent of classical learning: reading, writing, thinking.

      Dan VanZant

      Do you remember the viral “Death by PowerPoint” video? I showed it yesterday—talks about distractibility and keeping slides clean and clear.

      Michele Williams

      Yes. And I do love that tablets let students keep everything in one place. But technology is a tool, not a replacement for thinking. Use it; don’t let it use you.

      David Stewart

      I also think students have been conditioned by bad teaching. They come to expect passive PowerPoints instead of real learning.

      Michele Williams

      I agree—it goes both ways.

      Dan VanZant

      Definitely.

      Michele Williams

      Well, this has been so interesting, Doctor Stewart. Thank you so much for your time. And I believe we’ll talk with you again about Academic Affairs and some insights regarding that. Thank you so much for your time today.

      David Stewart

      Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here.

      David Stewart

      And—


       

       

      38 min

    About White Coat Radio

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    “White Coat Radio” provides listeners with helpful advice, stories, and insights from the faculty, staff, and student pharmacists at East Tennessee State University Bill Gatton College of Pharmacy…