Episode Description

In this episode of Intonicated, Kenneth Tupper is joined by Pedram Dara, founder of Psychedelic Lived Experiences, for a wide-ranging conversation on what psychedelic medicine looks like when viewed from the patient’s side of the table.

Pedram recounts how he first encountered MDMA-assisted psychotherapy through a Canadian clinical trial for PTSD, at a moment when both the problem and the proposed solution appeared in his life at the same time. From there, the discussion moves beyond individual healing to systemic questions about how psychedelic research and care are designed.

Together, they explore why “patient-centered care” often functions more as a slogan than a practice, and how lived experience is routinely excluded from decision-making in clinical trials, clinics, and regulatory processes. Pedram draws on his background in technology and product development to argue that healthcare, and psychedelic medicine in particular, lags far behind other fields in meaningfully incorporating user feedback.

The conversation also addresses treatment resistance, non-responders, potential harms, and the risks of polarization in public narratives about psychedelics. Ultimately, this episode asks what it would take to build psychedelic systems that truly listen to the people they are meant to serve.

Time stamps

1. 01:04 – Introduction
2. 05:32 – First learning about PTSD and MDMA at the same time
3. 07:27 – Opportunity to be in MDMA trial to treat PTSD
4. 08:51 – Background in tech and understanding importance of “user” experience
5. 12:49 – Meeting other psychedelic clinical trial patients
6. 14:47 – Tension between system-centred health care and patient-centred care
7. 17:23 – Meaning of “lived experience” and “patient-centred” care
8. 18:46 – Clinicians with lived experience
9. 20:34 – Psychedelic therapy patients who don’t get the outcome they hoped for
10. 23:27 – Talking about psychedelic therapy in a balanced way
11. 26:32 – Designing psychedelic research and therapy clinics to be more patient-centred
12. 29:14 – Importance of regulatory bodies in foregrounding patient-centred care
13. 32:29 – Broadening lived experience input beyond medical research
14. 35:34 – Interest in other psychedelics after MDMA-assisted therapy
15. 37:42 – Objectivity and therapists’ own experiential training
16. 40:44 – Different cultural perspectives on mental illness
17. 44:49 – Future of psychedelic medicine and influence of patient lived experience
18. 48:59 – Psychedelic Lived Experiences Summit

Guest

Pedram Dara is the founder and director of Psychedelic Lived Experiences, a patient-led initiative amplifying the voices of people who have participated in psychedelic therapies and clinical trials. Drawing on his own experience in an MDMA-assisted psychotherapy trial for PTSD and a background in technology and product development, he works to bridge gaps between patients, clinicians, researchers, and policymakers in psychedelic medicine.

Links

https://psychedeliclivedexperiences.com/

https://www.simonandschuster.ca/books/Crazy-Like-Us/Ethan-Watters/9781416587095

Host

Kenneth Tupper is a public health researcher, drug policy expert, and educator whose work focuses on psychedelics, learning, and wellbeing.

Disclaimer

This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only. It does not constitute medical advice. Psychedelics are powerful substances with known risks and are illegal in many jurisdictions. Always consult qualified medical professionals and follow applicable laws.