Word to the W.I.S.E. #whystandardsmatter

You can read the transcript of that interview with David Wroth and Grace Callahan here:

Host: David and Grace, thank you so much for joining us on this critical episode of the Word to the W.I.S.E. podcast.

[00:01:13] David Wroth: You're welcome. It's a pleasure to be here.

[00:01:15] Grace Callahan: Yes. Thank you for having us.

[00:01:17] Host: So, to begin with, what was the idea behind working on this report to link UL standards, catalogues, and standards development processes with the UN sustainable development goals?

[00:01:28] Grace Callahan: So, the UN Sustainable Development Goals are a universal call to action for both developing and developed countries to work together to improve human lives and protect the environment. So, with this initiative at UL Standards and Engagement, we wanted to look at how UL standards can help achieve the 17 sustainable development goals in order to determine the impact and benefits of our standards globally. So, our goal with this initiative is to use this information to inform future standards development activities, develop standards to address gaps in the SDGs and to better align existing UL standards to the goals.

[00:02:08] David Wroth: Yeah, and I'd like to add on something that I think is sometimes a bit of a misconception about the sustainable development goals. As Grace mentioned, there are a wide range of goals and they're much more than just sustainability. The keyword is development and that means that we're advancing people, planet, and the prosperity together. So, the goals are about education, equity, but also innovation, meaningful and safe employment, and sustainability. And so, we believe that the SDGs represent a set of noble goals for the world, and we want to be a bigger part of it.

[00:02:52] Host: And can you tell us more on how you went about the entire exercise? Because one can see it's a rather exhaustive report that uses both qualitative and quantitative methods to determine that alignment.

[00:03:03] David Wroth: Right. Our approach you know, combined the best of subject matter expert, our colleagues throughout UL Standards and Engagement really get deep into the content that are part of our standards. And we know that they have this great body of knowledge that we want to tap into. But we also knew that assessing, you know, 1500 standards against 17 goals could be a very, very time-consuming effort. And so, we used some data science techniques. We used several algorithms to predict the association of a standard to an SDG by using a similarity score that takes a look at the text of each of the scope statements of our standards, and then compares that against the description of the SDG and its targets and using this natural language processing algorithm, it essentially takes a look, not just at- are there common words between those two pieces of content, but it's now sophisticated enough to look at - are there similar concepts between the scope statement and the SDG and its targets? And so, by using this similarity score, we gave that score and those results as an input to the subject matter expert, so that they could quickly and easily identify those standards that are most aligned with the SDG. And then they made the final call because again that natural language processing algorithm is just an algorithm and we wanted to make sure that our people, you know, we're able to stand behind the results that we have in this report. And so that's why we combined those two pieces, you know, the subject matter expert piece of our colleagues and the data approach as well.

[00:05:15] Host: And so, what are the key areas where standards can make a massive difference in meeting those 17 UN SDGs?

[00:05:24] David Wroth: Well to start, it's a great outcome, we think, that we have identified that there are more than 950 cases where a UL standard supports one or more of the SDGs. And in fact, each unique standard in that list supports an average of at least two of the SDGs. And then the other thing that we can say, kind of looking more broadly across the SDGs is for each one of the 17, there's at least one UL standard that can be used as a guide to help support the efforts that achieve those identified targets of the SDGs. But back to the more pointed part of your question, the SDGs with the largest number of associations that we saw. Our first, SDG 7, which is about affordable and clean energy, has more than 130 UL standards that have an association with that particular, SDG - SDG 9, which is about industry, innovation and infrastructure, has more than a hundred associations. SDG 11, which is all about sustainable cities and communities, has 154 individual standards that are linked to that particular SDG. And then finally another one where we have a lot of standards supporting the goal is number 12, which is about responsible consumption and production, which has 120 associations. So, you can see that our portfolio of standards really supports a variety of the SDGs. and in some cases, goes very deep into the goal and the targets that are associated with it.

[00:07:24] Grace Callahan: Yes. And we want to highlight SDG 7, which focuses on ensuring access to affordable and sustainable energy for everyone. So, through standardization, we, UL Standards and Engagement help ensure that energy storage designs are performance driven, but they also prioritize safety and reliability as well as sustainability. So, while we found 130 associations between SDG 7 and our standards, two examples of specific UL standards that support this goal include UL 95 40, which is the standard for energy storage systems and equipment, as well as UL 95 40 A, which is test method for evaluating thermal runaway, fire propagation, and battery energy storage systems.

[00:08:15] Host: Hmm.

[00:08:15] David Wroth: That's a mouthful Grace.

[00:08:17] Host: I know it's clearly a lot of standards and the SDGs do actually in fact provide strategies, like you said, David, at the outset, to reduce inequality and promote gender equity. How is UL Standards and Engagement promoting those efforts?

[00:08:35] David Wroth: Well, we have a number of different things that we're doing along those lines. But probably the most significant thing that we've done is that we've recently signed the UNECE Declaration for Gender Responsive Standards and Standards Development. And that signature really highlights our commitment to work together towards gender balance and representation in the standards development process in an inclusive way. We also commit to create gender responsive standards and to achieve gender equality through the empowerment of women and girls, which aligns with SDG 5. And so, it's really, a broad set of activities that are going to go across, you know, both who participates in the process of developing standards and making sure that the standards that we develop fully account for the, the way that women work, women and girls work and live and so forth. So, it's across multiple activities there.

[00:09:45] Grace Callahan: Yes, and we want to make sure that our standards are really developed for everybody. So, we are currently working on putting together our gender action plan, which part of which includes collecting data on the gender representation on our technical committees, as well as developing guidance information for our standards authors, to make sure that we're developing gender responsive standards.

[00:10:09] David Wroth: And there's, there's another angle that, that I'd like to, to highlight here as well. There's also an effort to look at the idea of inclusive language, and part of that highlights the idea that if we use language in our standards or even in our technical committee meetings, that offends people that has the, you know, the chilling effect of not really allowing them to bring everything that they know and the people that they are to the table. And what we've found in some of our analysis of the content of our standards is we have certain language that is very male oriented and sometimes has a, a bit of a, an odd connotation to it. And in talking with a number of standards professionals who are women, they've highlighted the idea that, you know, some of the language that's used in, in our standards and in our meetings, you know, tends to be off-putting. And so, we're addressing that inclusive language as a way to allow everyone who participates in those committee meetings to feel that they can really speak through their voice and bring forward their expertise into the process.

[00:11:25] Host: And that inclusivity is really important. So, the next question really is, what is the role of other international companies, institutions, and entities in achieving the goal set forth in the UN agenda, and how can they use the findings of your report to further support the SDGs?

[00:11:44] David Wroth: Well, I really believe that in order for us to achieve the sustainable development goals, because they are so broad and so far, reaching that essentially every organization, every company, every institution, and in fact each one of us individually, has a part to play in achieving these goals. You know, part of what we're trying to bring forward here is that standards are uniquely positioned to provide a framework to transition from the goals into specific actions. And by following industry accepted technical standards developed by UL Standards and Engagement and other standards bodies, it provides a blueprint for those products, those systems, and even services, to bolster the efforts that come about naturally. And by following standards you're both allowing people to know that the, the product or the system or the services are built and maintained and designed specifically to be of high quality and to meet this standard that other people have agreed to. But now it's also demonstrating that by doing that, you're taking steps towards achieving the SDGs. So, it, it essentially lays out a pattern that can be followed that makes achieving the goals associated or the, the metrics and the targets associated with the SDGs a little bit easier, and you get the other benefits of following a consensus-based standard. That is also very much something that is valued in the marketplace.

[00:13:40] Grace Callahan: Definitely. And so, you know, using the findings of our report, we're really working to identify the gaps in standardization in very key SDG areas. Using this data to really evaluate opportunities where we can develop standards to further support the achievement of the SDGs. So as more standards development organizations conduct similar initiatives to document their own contributions of standards to the SDGs, the standards development community as a whole can align and collectively address the gaps and continue to really support the achievement of the SDGs and contribute to, you know, improving sustainability in society.

[00:14:22] Host: So, coming together and addressing the gaps and action also seem to be quite an important. From what we understand there are also other resources that are being created by SDOs and research bodies that provide similar sort of data. How can UL Standards and Engagement then act as a central repository for all the information that is out there?

[00:14:44] David Wroth: Yeah, well, we're trying, both to, you know, collaborate with other SDOs and, we're keeping track of the similar efforts that Grace mentioned of other SDOs to, to do this. And what we see is this growing ecosystem of organizations that are tracking towards the SDGs. And we're going to continue to map what we're doing and be aware of what others are doing to support the SDGs and we're working to evaluate the impact of UL standards on the environment and on society. So, while we can't do it all alone, what we see is that we have a common understanding and a common interest in advancing the SDGs with a large number of other SDOs. And we see that we play a facilitation role, much more than a centralization role in, in doing this. But as we've identified these resources, we're certainly going to be looking to make them accessible through the UL Standards and Engagement website, ulse.org and through reports and other deliverables, if you will, or, or other content that we can make available to colleagues around the world.

[00:16:10] Host: So, what lies ahead? How can listeners of this podcast do something next with regards to doing more to contribute to furthering those SDGs when it comes to standards development?

[00:16:22] David Wroth: Well, I think the first thing is to go to the UN website on the SDGs and to really take a bit more of a deep dive into the SDGs and their targets. And it's a wonderful resource because it also provides a number of examples on how organizations, how companies, how people you know, are helping to achieve the SDGs. Because I think when people look across the breadth of the SDGs, it's likely that you're going to find something that you personally are passionate about. Or something that your organization can get behind because there is a commonality between the mission of your organization and one of the SDGs. So, I think the more we become aware of what the SDGs are and what their targets are, the more able we are to find our place in, uh, understanding how we can contribute to the goals. So that, I think is, is the most important action that each of us can take in terms of understanding how that goes. But then the other part of it is to, you know, again, find what you are doing as an organization or as an individual. And then look to understand what the standards are that support this area. Because again, what we see is that the standards that are developed provide a blueprint that allow you to take what you would normally do or what your organization would normally develop and produce and produce that in a way that is a contribution to the achievement of those goals. So, you don't have to reinvent the wheel, you can use this standard as a way to accelerate the achievement of your goals and the SDGs.

[00:18:28] Grace Callahan: And I would add that for the listeners of the podcast, you know, you can help us work towards achieving the SDGs by engaging in our standards development process. And so, there are many ways to participate. You can submit a proposal to create a new standard or revise an existing one. You can submit comments on proposals, and you can also attend a technical committee meeting. And so, our process is open to all interested parties and there are no membership dues. So, you know, as Dave mentioned, achieving the SDGs is really a group effort. So we're really excited, you know, to work with other SDOs and stakeholders to make sure that we are working towards SDGs and achieving, you know, sustainability.

[00:19:16] Host: And hopefully through the Word to the W.I.S.E., we will also put the word out there. David and Grace, thank you so much for speaking to the Word to the W.I.S.E. podcast.

[00:19:24] David Wroth: You're quite welcome. It's been our pleasure.

[00:19:26] Grace Callahan: Thank you.

One of the key indicators of the move toward gender responsive standards is the increased participation of women experts in decision making and technical bodies. Towards that effort, we travel today to Shanghai to speak to Miss Lin Xing Director Standards and Institute of Testing Technology, Shanghai Electrical Apparatus Research Institute.

She is part of multiple UL Standards and Engagement Standards Technical Panels, or STPs today.

You can read the transcript of that Word to the W.I.S.E. interview with Ling Xing here:

Host: Thank you, Ms. Lin Xing, for being part of the Word to the W.I.S.E. conversation.

[00:00:51] Ms Lin Xing: Thank you, host. I'm very happy have this opportunity, attend this program. Women play a very important role in the standardization and I'm waiting to share my standardization story with you today.

[00:01:08] Host: Thank you so much. And you are an esteemed member of UL Standards & Engagement's STPs, could you share your experience being part of these panels?

[00:01:19] Ms Lin Xing: Okay, first as you all know, UL Standards has a long history and widely used. Each UL standards will set up a group with nine interesting characters attends, including producer, supply chain, commercial industrial use, general, AHJ/regulator government, testing standards, customers, and international delegate. So that means if you are related with the standard Standardize Objects, you could attend the working group, which is called STP In UL. For me, I attended two STPs. One is STP 3300 Robot for service, communication, information education, and entertainment. The other is STP 1740. That is for the robot and robotic equipment. In this two STPs, I worked as a chief member in this group and participate in the discussion of standards technical contents. Mm, why I joined these two STPs. That needed to send to Jessie Guo. Jessie Guo, who is a contact person of UL in China, and she attend some standards meeting which was hold from my side, so we know each other and when there some new standard projects starts Jessie Guo introduced the CCDS system to me and new projects. For my experience, the STP groups organization and the management is very professional. And, before each meeting, the Chairman of the meeting, will send the emails to us and, uh, to book the time and, uh, during the meeting, she will, take the notes with our discussion. For the technical difficulties that something may not, we cannot solve in a short time, then, the Chairman or the Project Leader will,set to different groups and let different leader discuss separately and then merger them..

[00:03:51] Host: And could you briefly explain the STP panels you've been part of?

[00:03:56] Ms Lin Xing: Okay. , just like I said, I have joined two STP panels, for the 3300, um, this, uh, standards gives the requirement to the service, communication, information education and, entertainment robot. This robot will be used, in residential , commercial and light-industrial environments such like our office or classroom. At present, many robot in STP 3300 range are used in our life. We can see them in our life. Objectively speaking, which star robots appears in the main use. I mean, from the TV which we see had not been widely promoted. Well, the automation and the autonomy of robots we see every day are still in our relatively primary stage. And the safety is naturally also in a relatively preliminary stage. So, the role of the technical standards is very important. And about the another standards is also for the robots that is STP 1740. Uh, it gives the requirements of the robots and the robotic equipment related to 600 voltage or less and intend to installation in according with the national, electrical code NFPA 70. This requirement covers robotic,equipment and system intended for indoor and outdoor use in applications such as part assembling, , part transfer, automated material handling, inspection, loading, dye casting, widing .planting spring, automatic storage system and such things. Mm. I think, uh, these two standards almost covers robot usually used in the industrial or daily life.

[00:06:17] Host: Hmm. And as a member of two of our STP panels, could you briefly throw light on how this engagement has helped you both professionally and personally?

[00:06:31] Ms Lin Xing: Mm. when we talk from this group and with different experts , from different countries, we can learn each other. We share our, Mm, knowledge and, also, uh, from the talk we can get some information about how this kind of products used in different place of the world. So, um, I think that is a very good opportunity for all of the experts in the group.

[00:07:08] Host: You are also involved in leading the proposal of performance test methods for cargo E transport mobility to IEC and have taken a lead on many local standards developments as well. What are the outcomes and what has been the significant impact of the standards which were developed through these panels in terms of safety, security, and sustainability?

[00:07:30] Ms Lin Xing: Mm, yes. In November 2021, as the project leader, I put forward the international proposal to IEC on the cargo E-transport, , mobility method and these standards are successfully entered the CD stage now, at the same time, I also act as the co-convenor for IEC/TC/125 WG6. This working group is Safety for the Cargo e-transporters mm. As you know, performance is the direction that enterprise technology continuous purpose, and the security , I mean, the safety is the bottom line of the products. This kind of product used in hotel, uh, hospital and the parks, but the standards,are Blank. And the enterprise scale is not large. Um, so the product cost is very high. They could not offer supply of standard parts in the industrial chain. International sales are more difficult. So I think, the rapid development of IEC cargo e-transporters standards can help the industry solve this problem. And, that is very meaningful work.

[00:09:04] Host: That is so interesting. And so, from your perspective, how important is participation of women in standards development, technical regulation, and in the implementation of standards?

[00:09:17] Ms Lin Xing: Actually when I saw this question, I'm so confused because the number of women who participate in the standardization work in China is very similar the number of men. The standard is a product of compromise means men and women are similar education level in China and maybe women have higher ability in communication. So, there is very, I mean there is no, no difference of that. The standard itself serves industry regardless of gender. In fact, there is no obvious gender issues in the standard work. At least there are no difference in my surrounding.

[00:10:11] Host: And that's so incredible because that's clearly a very unusual situation. So do you believe having more women at the table lead to gender responsive standards?

[00:10:23] Ms Lin Xing: Um, yes that is sure, but in China there is a no such concern as women have the equal opportunity in this kind of work.

[00:10:35] Host: How important is diversity and inclusion in STP panels? Could you highlight the role played by experts from diverse backgrounds in the development of standards?

[00:10:45] Ms Lin Xing: Mm, Yes, I think the diversity and inclusion in STP panel are very important. For example, from the, um, perspective of a third party, you know, SEARI, my company is a third party. The integrity, the repeatability and the standardization for a standard are important aspects to ensure high quality standards. But the product, sold in the market is based on the cost and the customer's acceptance. The highest demand is not always be the best, suitable is the best. So the government regulation appartment also have this appeal diversity of the members, especially from the small and medium, companies innovative capacity can bring in different demands. Reach consensus through discussion and, comprise. This is also conducive to the application of later standards.

[00:12:03] Host: And how important is mentorship and what role has mentorship played in advancing you in your own career? Would you consider being a mentor yourself?

[00:12:15] Ms Lin Xing: Mentorship is important to help young, standard, participants grow quickly. I met a lot of teachers when I in this series, although they cannot be called a mentor, but an advisor in different stage of my job. My company is SEARI. Uh, it is a third-party inspection agency after I was hired because the standard work is not for gaining profit, I contribute a lot and the job is always taken up by part-time works. Uh, I have act a test engineer and then project engineer, a quality minister, minister of international certification and ect. While I was working both on standards. To be honest the change in my job offered me so experience and benefit me. Now I'm the Director of Standards and the regulation and the response for the standardization of TIC that is the department of SEARI and also construct, uh, training mode for the younger generation of standardization colleagues. Also, I advise some young men and assist them to rapid growth.

[00:13:50] Host: What would you tell women who are listening to this podcast about joining STPs or participating in the standards development process? How would you encourage them to join in and participate a little bit more?.

[00:14:05] Ms Lin Xing: Okay. In the standard world, there is no gender difference, only the technical discussion. Also, in UL and in the process of STP development, there are many different rules. No matter you are conference organizer, recorder, or the standard drafter, as long as you have a technical idea, you can bring it up and all the experts will fully respect and discuss that. At the same time, people in the group can learn a lot here because the standards has many dimensions. In our discussion, we can enrich our knowledge of standards and deepen our understanding of products, which will benefit us a lot. So welcome all of you.

[00:15:01] Host: Thank you Ms Lin Xing for being on the Word to the W.I.S.E. Podcast.

[00:15:06] Ms Lin Xing: Thank you.

You can read the full transcript of that podcast interview with Carrie and Grace here:

Host: Carrie and Grace, thank you so much for joining us in this Word to the W.I.S.E. Conversation.

[00:01:05] Carrie Schmaus: Great to be here.

[00:01:06] Grace Callahan: Yes, agreed.

[00:01:09] Host: Carrie, what is your role in the YEP program and how and why did you decide to get involved?

[00:01:17] Carrie Schmaus: So, my role in the Young and Emerging Professionals or YEP program is what we call it. I am the chair and I've been the chair for about three years now. And so, I really got interested in this work after I attended the IEC Young Professional Program or the YP program. So, we have YEP and YP, YEP is the US committee and YP is the international program, which I think Grace will talk about here pretty shortly. And after attending that program, which was in 2018, I left really excited about standards and conformity assessment, and particularly the role of young professionals kind of in that whole world. And so, as the program went on, I was elected a YP leader, which is a position that allows for three folks to get elected. And so those folks are able to work on a project of their choice for the rest of the year. And I used my year to focus on expanding support for the Young and Emerging Professionals program in the US, and because I was interested in that, I, of course joined the Yep. Committee and then was shortly thereafter elected Chair. And our work these past three years has really been focused on starting up, a US National YEP program. So, kind of a mirror program of what happens at the international level but focused on US Young and Emerging Professionals. And with this, we're really trying to build a community of these leaders in the United States. And it's been really rewarding for me to spend the last three years on this work.

[00:02:51] Host: And Grace, congratulations for being selected this year for the IEC's Young Professionals Program. What has been your experience with the workshop you just attended and the interactions you had so far?

[00:03:02] Grace Callahan: So, I was selected by the US National Committee of the IEC to represent the US in the Young Professionals Program. It was such an amazing opportunity to be able to participate in a week-long program where the young professionals were able to learn more about standardization and conformity assessment, as well as observe IEC technical and management meetings and attend sessions on topics related to standards, including digitizing standards and using them, to improve energy efficiency and achieve the U.N. Sustainable Development Goals. So, one of my favorite parts was actually just getting to meet the 85 other young professionals from 46 different countries that use standards in their jobs.

[00:03:48] Host: That's so interesting. And how has both your involvement with the IEC and the U.S. National Committee influenced your career and line of work and your understanding of standards?

[00:04:00] Carrie Schmaus: So, for me, my involvement in the IEC and USNC has really influenced my career, mostly in the sense that I've been able to refine skills that have been really helpful in my day job at the Department of Energy. And so, things like, you know, now I have experience building and implementing a program with the US National YEP Program. , I've planned and participated on panels, so lots of public speaking opportunities. And of course, I chair a committee, so I have some leadership experience, and this has really helped me in all aspects of my career. But I've also experienced a pretty interesting evolution of understanding of standards because in addition to the technical and safety advancements, I've also found the IEC to be a really powerful forum for international collaboration, which is another thing that I find to be really important in my work at DOE.

[00:04:50] Grace Callahan: Yeah, and I echo everything that Carrie mentioned. I think that the IEC Young Professional Program has been really great for improving my understanding of standards and conformity assessment through the week-long workshop. I think both the Young Emerging Professionals Committee that Carrie talked about as well as the YP program are both just really great ways for young professionals to really become excited about standards by getting to meet other young people that are also involved, and just by being able to exchange new ideas.

[00:05:27] Host: And what needs to happen to make it more attractive for younger professionals?

[00:05:33] Grace Callahan: I think the biggest thing is awareness. I would say most people, especially young professionals, don't even know about standards or why they're important, so much less having a career in standardization. I would say secondly, you know, increasing diversity in the standards industry, we really want to create an environment where young professionals feel like they can actively participate and add value. And lastly, I would say, you know, just really showing the impact that standards have on everyday life, like why they're important, why they matter. You know, standards are everywhere. So, we really want to make sure that young professionals know that by pursuing a career in standardization, they can really have an impact on, you know, helping to make the world a safer place.

[00:06:24] Carrie Schmaus: Yeah, I think Grace said that really, really well, and I totally agree. I think awareness is one of the biggest barriers facing people getting involved in standards and conformity assessment. And so, I mean, to be honest, before I went to the YP program, I didn't know much about standards. but once I went through that program and was able to spend some time learning and thinking and networking, and really considering the positive impact that standardized conformity assessment can have, particularly in sustainability, I was totally sold. And so, I think a lot of young people really need that connection to whatever it is that they really care about in their work. And so, for me, that thing is climate change. And so, once I understood how standards and conformity assessment could bring our society into a greener, healthier future, really my only question was, okay, how do I get more involved in this? And so, I think if that connection between the IEC work and efforts like the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals or the UN SDGs, were clear to more people. Then I think there would be a lot of interest.

[00:07:31] Host: And apart from awareness, what is the role of mentorship and how has it structured or been structured in the standards community?

[00:07:42] Grace Callahan: So, mentorship is really important for young professionals to really get involved in the standards community as well as stay involved. A mentorship can provide, you know, insight and guidance, and, you know, informal mentors are just as important as, you know, formal mentors because sometimes it can be difficult to find one. But I think that especially being a young professional in the industry, having someone who can give you guidance can really make a difference in, in your career and the way that you, think about things and kind of your career path going forward.

[00:08:18] Carrie Schmaus: Yeah, I think that is, that's totally right. And I know I've personally benefited from guidance and insight of both formal and informal mentors. But one thing that the US YEP Committee, is really excited about, especially for those coming into the standards and conformity assessment world. Maybe for the first time, or maybe they're still pretty new is that the USNC does have a formal mentorship program. And this is a really neat program because it actually matches the mentors and the proteges or the mentees and then provides kind of a blueprint. A blueprint for what that relationship can look like. And so, as Grace mentioned, of course, for the proteges, that's really impactful and helpful to have kind of that guidance insight into the world of standards, or conformity assessment. But for folks that are mentors, that's also a really rewarding way to spend time. And I think, at least for me, being a mentor can really help you see your career through a new lens as well.

[00:09:17] Host: And seeing it through the new lens. What lies in the future for the IEC and USNC plans to develop the next generation of standard leaders?

[00:09:28] Carrie Schmaus: So, as we talked about at the beginning, the US National Program is under development now, and with that program, our ultimate goal is to build a community of young and emerging professionals in the United States. And, we have four kind of core values that we've built this program around. The first is diversity, equity, and inclusion. The second is outreach to a wide variety of audiences. We have a group working on events and programming, that will benefit the membership. So things like trainings and other events that will really help people get ingrained into the work. And then international collaboration. And so for the program, we're really hoping to build on these core values and kind of build it out into something that will really serve the young and emerging professionals in the US.

[00:10:16] Grace Callahan: Yes, and I wanted to add that we meet monthly, via teleconference with this group. And it's just such a great opportunity to get to know people who are also involved in standards, and really work together and collaborate and, and share, you know, ideas from, from their industries. So if you're in the US and interested in getting involved, you can go to our webpage, which is on the, ANSI website.

[00:10:39] Host: That's so interesting. And for young and emerging career professionals, how can they learn more about and build skills in standards?

[00:10:48] Grace Callahan: I would say one way is to join the YEP Committee. If you're in the U.S., you can also apply for the IEC YP program. You know, if you're located internationally, as well, you know, you can attend trainings on standards or apply to get involved or participate with a technical committee, to learn more that way, again, being a mentor or being a mentee, is also a really great way to really get involved in the industry and learn more.

[00:11:20] Carrie Schmaus: Yeah, absolutely. And I also would say, I think most of the people that work in standards and conformity assessment are really excited about their work. I know that's true for me. I'm sure that's true for Grace. And so if somebody were to reach out to me and just want to learn more, I would be more than happy to have that conversation. And I think that's true for a lot of people. So, For folks listening out there, if you see somebody working on something that you think is interesting, just reach out via, you know, a social media platform or via email and just ask to have a chat. And I bet that, you know, would be a successful way to, to learn more as well.

[00:11:55] Host: And I think uppermost on a lot of young people's minds when they explore different options is what are their career prospects then?

[00:12:05] Carrie Schmaus: That is such a great question and one that certainly was on my mind and, and still is as I get deeper into my career. In the world of standards and conformity assessment, there really are many different ways that it can either be a, you know, the full focus of your career or a really rewarding aspect of it. There are many technical career paths in this world and so you could be a contributing member or a leader within the technical committees. But I also think it's worth mentioning that there are some non-technical career paths, which is really more where I fit actually. I'm not a technical expert, on the technical committee for which my work at DOE participates on. But I'm finding a lot of satisfaction in my career where I'm helping to expand the reach of standards and conformity assessment, I'm thinking strategically about how standards can benefit the technology that I work on at DOE and of course working to improve the diversity, equity, and inclusion of the standards and conformity assessment community with the work at the U.S. National YEP Program.

[00:13:10] Grace Callahan: Yes. And I just want to emphasize that standards and conformity assessment are relevant to any industry. So there's not a singular career path, in the industry. As Carrie mentioned, I don't have a technical career path either. And it's really just a way that talking to people that are involved in standards, everybody came from, a lot of people came from a different background. So there's just tons of ways to get involved. So, you know, if you really want a career where you can make a positive impact, and really see the difference that your work makes, definitely consider a career in standards or conformity assessment.

[00:13:48] Host: And Grace and Carrie, it's been so interesting to talk to you because there's so many perspectives that's coming from this conversation. Thank you for speaking to the Word to the W.I.S.E. Podcast.

[00:13:59] Carrie Schmaus: Thank you so much for having us.

[00:14:00] Grace Callahan: Yes, thank you.

You can read the transcript of that recording with Dr Azizah and Filwah here:

Host: Dr. Azizah and Filwah thank you for being part of this Word to the W.I.S.E. Conversation.

[00:00:56] Azizah Alogali: Thank you so much for inviting me along with my colleague Filwah to be guests on your podcast. It's actually a pleasure to spend the time with you and talk about developing standards that are truly gender responsive and representative. It's actually the topic that I'm personally interested in and I'm grateful for the opportunity to represent with my colleague, of course, Filwah SASO, and its effort towards achieving gender equality and standards development. Thank you.

[00:01:26] Filwah Alqahtani: Thank you, all, and it’s our pleasure to be part of this episode.

[00:01:30] Host: Thank you so much. But could you just for our listeners, tell us a bit more about your respective journeys, in particularly your career paths that brought you to the standards development space and what it is that you do at SASO.

[00:01:45] Azizah Alogali: Thank you for your question. Actually, for me personally, my professional career began 20 years ago when I start teaching at college. During that period, I was mostly involved in teaching, uh, offering academic advisory services and was involved of course, in the research. Since then, I have worked as a researcher at the University of North Dakota Program Evaluator at the University of Rochester. Then I moved to Saudi Arabia and started my career as a consultant, a full-time consultant, at a technical and vocational training corporation, and also part-time business development consultant in Nagaro. Would like to highlight my work with the women and gender studies department at the University of North Dakota. Within this collaboration, I was involved in examining issues of gender, social equality, and power dynamics. My experience through this career facilitated my understanding of the politics of sexuality and aspects of performance of gender. I also have the opportunity to understand women's achievement and their contribution to history. Generally, my working at the University of North Dakota helped me seek challenges related to women empowerment and take up all leadership initiatives within my community. Currently I work as a full-time consultant at the Saudi Standards, Metrology and Quality Organization (SASO). I start actually working at SASO since, uh, 2020, and I was collaborating all the time with the rest of my team to make sure that our project and initiatives are serving the needs of Saudi Arabia. I also work with the rest of my team to make sure that our initiatives are aligned with the strategic goals of the organization. It is also important to know that my responsibility is not only locally, um, sharing that we involved with our, um, activities at SASO and making sure that activities that SASO align with international organization that we're collaborating with, such as an ISO organization and other organization of course. Bulk of my personal contribution to SASO so far has entitled Developing a New Strategies for Action Plans Based or Recommendations. I have also collaborated with internal team members to develop a new awareness plans and solutions meant to facilitate the long-term growth of the organization. As part of my contribution also to SASO, I have also joined some of the ISO committees and representing SASO as a female employee in some of the ISO technical committees such as the Human Resource Management, governance of organization guidelines for the promotion and implementation of gender equality. And finally, I have joined also the Joint Strategic Advisory Group of Gender Responsive Standards that basically in short, my contribution and my career where it's starting and ending up with SASO.

[00:04:35] Filwah Alqahtani: So, for me, uh, I've been working for a while with SASO, but my journey in standardization got deeper a couple of years ago when I became the head of follow up and documentation section. At that time, my work included following up on standard projects from the initial step where a project is suggested to be added in the annual plan of a technical committee or department. Until the final draft of a project becomes an approved standard. Then I became the head of national technical committees’ section where my work shifted from focusing on projects to focusing on technical committee members who are involved in the standardization work. And now, as you mentioned earlier, I work as the manager of National and International Technical Committees department. And being a certified project manager, I represent Saudi Arabia in the number of regional and international technical committees about project management

[00:05:30] Host: So, what is your vision for the region in the future of standards development and how are you working towards achieving it?

[00:05:39] Azizah Alogali: Well, before I can lay out the vision of our organization concerning the future of standardization, I guess it would be imperative to define what a standard for our listeners who may not have enough knowledge or may not have, uh, familiar with the word standardization or standards. Well, a standard is the document established by consensus, improved by a recognized body that provides for common and repeated use. Rules, guidelines, or characteristic for activities or their results aimed at the achievement of the optimum degree of order in a given context. So, in a simpler term, I can say it's best referred for a standard is something that is established by authority Custom, or maybe General consensus as an example or point of reference. A standard is therefore a measure of, could be quantity, weight, extent, value, or quality. Our vision actually here at SASO is to be internationally trusted entity that empowers life equality and that the competitiveness of the national economy. Concerning standardization, we also focusing on issues Saudi or issuing Saudi standards and other relative documents that are consistent with international standards. We also focus on ensuring that the products comply with the standards approved by SASO, thereby guaranteeing environmental and health protection as well as general safety. Our organization actually known for ensuring the quality of national products and services. We do this by, uh, providing suitable Saudi standards that allow products and service to, to compete in the domestic and international markets. Uh, it is also our additional responsibility to protect the Kingdom's markets from the substandard and the counterfeit. As you can see here, our vision in general is to see Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Gulf also become a centre of excellence in standardization activities. Taking a step toward standards development could help our region accelerate action towards achieving the sustainable development goals set out by the United Nations. And to achieve this kind of vision, we have invested in collaborations and consensus that can facilitate the standards developmental process. SASO strongly believes in the fact that impactful standards are an outcome, just an outcome of a strong will to come together and build consensus on the way forward. The spirit, actually of the collaboration and consensus is what we need as a region. To drive standardization work and to achieve a sustainable future. Apart from that, we have also committed to inclusive in standardization process that place everyone, everyone in a leading position to achieve their ambitions for sustainable development. And this is why, maybe explaining why we have invested in bringing together expert from different sectors of the world and authorities experiencing coming together in their responsibilities. It is also important to note that we manage most of the national quality infrastructure in the Kingdom. Covering aspects of standardization, testing, product inspection, certification, metrology, and also technical regulations. I can also leave the floor for colleague Filwah to talk about the standards, issuing strategies as a part of our vision here at SASO

[00:09:12] Filwah Alqahtani: It's important to mention that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is a crucial country in the Gulf, region, and an equal part of the international community. For this reason, it's important that Saudi products and services have access to and are accepted on international markets. Therefore, SASO strengthened its position, operation, and work at the international level in cooperation with International Standardization Organization and has newly developed its standards issuing strategy to ensure that the internal needs of the Kingdom are met. Consequently, wherever possible, national, and regional standards will become the same, or let's say, at least based on international standards. Our standards’ issuing strategy was built on a number of criteria, which includes Saudi Vision 2030, government priorities and strategies, the needs of real stakeholders. So, uh, Saudi social and non-economic priorities in addition to exports and imports, this strategy resulted in 181 priority areas for product categories as well as technologies and services standardization that we are aiming to cover. Also, standardization in the broadest meaning of the term, of course, is not limited to the development of new standards. As part of the development of the strategy, SASO undertook a self-assessment of the standardization department against the requirement of good standardization practice as promoted by ISO to figure out areas in which SASO shall undertake improvements during the period of the strategy, which is from the current year in 2022 until the 2024.

[00:10:56] Host: And given what both of you said, how critical are the roles of technical committees, local bodies, and collaboration with other stakeholders

[00:11:05] Azizah Alogali: Thank you for your question. It's important to note that all of these institutions are critical in standards development. The technical committees are essentially the key bodies of standardization. Here at SASO, we engage technical committees, right from initiation of the project to its registration, assessment, development of standards, approval, publication, as well as maintenance and review of the standards. The committees are tasked with the responsibility of developing and drafting standards before they can be, ratified by the overseeing institution. Their primary purpose is to help the board in charge of standards apply their oversights responsibilities on certain technical matters that are beyond the scope or expertise of the non-technical board members. The technical committees consist of expertise in different fields, uh, representing the National Committees Professional Association, uh, industry experts, government trade unions, and other, uh, stakeholders with different layers and representation. With such a vast or different composition, you can be sure that the technical committees can handle any subject matter and help develop standards across industries. By applying technical committees in the process of developing SASO standards, SASO aimed to achieve many goals. Some of these goals, like increasing opportunities of related body to participate in developing technical committees’ annual plans, and to prepare SASO standards. Raise the performance level of developing SASO standards in all field, especially those that have directing back to national economy, health, consumer safety and environmental protection. Periodically also review adopted SASO standards and ensure that such standards meet national requirements and are comfortable within the international standards as much as possible. Also, updating SASO standards based on the review process according to the methodology set by SASO. To ensure meeting the largest possible amount of consumer needs regarding the products and the service SASO provides concerned parties with opportunity to suggest technical committees, which are considered important to be formed. Any public, private, or academic institutions today designing to nominate any of their employee to participate in the membership of one of the technical committees is free to do so.

[00:13:36] Filwah Alqahtani: Besides SASO publishes each standard and its official website for public reviews and comments for 60 days before adoption. And this is also to ensure that standards are the fruit of the work of relevant stakeholders. Talking earlier about the strategy, I mentioned that stakeholders were actually one of the main criteria that strategy was built on. Stakeholders were analysed according to the strategic direction for the development of standards. We expect with the end of the strategy and the start of the new strategy from 2025 to 2027, that the number of stakeholders will increase according to the strategic directions that we have covered and according to the future analysis of stakeholders.

[00:14:22] Host: And what are the key initiatives SASO has taken to increase participation of women

[00:14:28] Azizah Alogali: Yes. actually, statistics and data show that women all over the world are largely underrepresented in the development of standards. SASO is attempting to change this narrative through a series of initiatives targeted at increasing the participation of women in standardization. One such initiative is to increase the number of women in the committees that develop standards for products that we consume daily. SASO actually help always making sure that they are the forefront in the working jointly with other institutions to address the critical gender gap and also to increase participation of women. The organization also promotes the adoption of gender responsive standard and technical regulation as powerful initiatives to attain the SDG Five, which relates to gender equality and empowerment of all women, and girls. Our organization believes in the importance of bringing practical solutions to creating a standard that form gender accountable governance system, policies and laws that include and work for everyone.

[00:15:37] Host: And where are you with respect to increasing the participation of women in technical committees and panels?

[00:15:43] Azizah Alogali: Actually, here at SASO, we follow different approaches to create empowerment for women. Some of this could include accepting women viewpoints in the committees and panels they are assigned to, and also making an effort to seek them and raising their status through opportunities for education, awareness and training. We also run mentorship programs target towards raising the level of participation of women in standardization activities. We are focusing actually here in SASO on increasing a number of women to participate in standardization by making that, happen. We are making sure that the physical environment enabling women to perform their duties. We are also working on educating our society and letting them know how it's important of women participation in standardization activities. And we do that through couple of the activities, initiatives. An example of that, an event that we hosted in March 2022 under the umbrella of increasing, women participation in standardization activity and that's happened in Women's Day. We brought, people from different institutions to talk about how important to involve women in standardization and how important to make standards are responsible and, uh, sensitive to women's needs. And we are planning and hoping to make that event happen again in 2023 with the collaboration of other stakeholders here in the Kingdom.

[00:17:14] Host: And what is the work you are doing when collaborating with local, regional, and global standards bodies to achieve your vision?

[00:17:22] Azizah Alogali: Yeah, thank you for the question. This is a very important thing. At SASO, actually, we are keen on improving the national quality infrastructure within the kingdom. Among some of the drivers are the intentions to diversify the economy, to reduce oil dependency, maximize the trade opportunities, integrate farther into global economies, enhance the productivity of firms, and improve the quality of our products and services. We actually here in SASO, we are working hard to manage most of the NQI services in the kingdom, covering, standardization, testing, inspection, product certification, metrology, and technical regulation as well. As you may notice, also, the accreditation service has become an independent entity in the recent times, and this is meant to avoid a conflict of interest among QI institutions, and changes are being made in the technical regulations area. Considering our collaboration with the Global Standards Body, SASO is a full member of three relevant international standards organization, ISO IEC, and ITU, our organization is also as a signatory of the. W T O T B T agreement and is entirely committed to the objective set out in the agreement. We also here at SASO, leading member of regional organization and the GSO and SMIIC when we are collaborating, therefore, we ensure that the standards we adopt are based on international standards where they exist and are appropriate. Regional and regional or national standards are developed only where an appropriate international standard does not exist, although in some limit cases, international standards are amended or adopted with national modification, so to account for the specific interest, uh, of the kingdom, Saudi Arabia.

[00:19:24] Filwah Alqahtani: So, as Dr Aziza just mentioned, SASO actively participates in a wide range of technical committees, concerned with standardization at national, regional, and international levels, and gives such technical committees a high priority in participation in the preparation of standards or giving comments or even voting on projects, as well as attending their meetings and seminars. The same is the case under memorandums of cooperation between various national standardization bodies, which aim to enhance cooperation and exchange expertise by holding seminars, meetings, and training courses.

[00:20:01] Host: Are there any particular standards where SASO has played a key role in keeping in mind greater diversity and inclusion?

[00:20:09] Azizah Alogali: Interesting across its seven standard sectors. SASO has a current catalogue featuring over than 32,000 standards. The standards span across, um, collaboration, or our calibration and metrology sectors. Electric and electronic, chemical and petroleum products, mechanical, metal products, construction, building products, sector, and, uh, service sectors too. Filwah can share maybe some of the examples where SASO has played a key role in keeping in mind greater diversity inclusions through our standardization.

[00:20:48] Filwah Alqahtani: Thank you, doctor. There are many examples where SASO has kept in mind differences in diversity as much as possible when necessary. Examples include let's say in respect of age differences some standards that requirements and sizes for school chairs and tables for all ages. There are standards that specify requirements to be met in children's toys. Some toys are made of chemicals that shouldn't be given to children less than five years old, of course, to protect them from the danger cause of chemical elements, let's say, are put in the mouth or being swallowed. In respect of diversity between women and men, SASO has prepared standards to determine the different requirements for clothing between men and women, and it has also adopted standards for protective equipment for martial arts that take into account the differences of parts of the body to be protected between males and females. There are many examples that can be found in our catalogue of standards by visiting our official website, www.saso.gov.sa and searching our electronic services for logs of catalogues stored, where more information can be found about the standards that we have worked on and approved.

[00:22:03] Host: And for listeners of this podcast, especially from the region, what should they look out for when looking to participate in standards development in your organization and with other partners?

[00:22:14] Azizah Alogali: As I mentioned earlier, with more than 32,000 published standards in our catalogue at SASO, this number make us assume that many needs for standardization in the kingdom Saudi Arabia are already satisfied. So those looking to participate in standards development should watch out for consultation and analysis opportunities that can facilitate the identification of gaps in standards coverage. Opportunities for consultation may require those participating to facilitate the identification of areas for improvement. Once these areas are identified technical committees may be asked to review the current situation and suggest the new standards.

[00:22:59] Filwah Alqahtani: Adding to what Dr Aziza just mentioned at SASO, we welcome participation of any relevant or interested party in the field of standardization, and we also welcome, any expert whether standardization is part of his or her work. Or specialization or even having an interest to get involved in the standardization work, and we seek to achieve this goal by using all available means. SASO is always keen to allow the participation for all relevant and interested parties to achieve the principles of impartiality and transparency in the preparation of standards. We also motivate members and provide them with all that is required to help them play this role.

[00:23:43] Host: Dr Aziza and Filwah thank you so much for speaking to the Word to the WISE podcast.

[00:23:49] Azizah Alogali: Thank you so much for inviting us to your podcast. We appreciate the discussion we have had, and we hope we have more opportunities like this to discuss some matters concerning gender and the standardization process in the kingdom Saudi Arabia. We would like to take this opportunity to thank you again for giving us a chance and hope that we get more opportunities in the future. Thank you.

[00:24:11] Filwah Alqahtani: Thank you so much.

You also read the transcript of the podcast interview with Veronica Lancaster here:

Host: Veronica, thank you for joining us in this Word to the Wise conversation.

[00:00:58] Veronica Lancaster: Thank you for having me. It's an honor to be here and to contribute to Word to the Wise. Some of my friends and colleagues have participated and I'm happy to be included in the conversation.

[00:01:08] Host: You've such vast experience in the standards development industry. Tell us a bit about how you began your career and the opportunities that were offered for women standardization professionals.

[00:01:20] Veronica Lancaster: Yeah, well, my career in standards was somewhat of an accident in that my original interest was in training, development and human resources. I spent five years in the Army when I wasn't exactly sure what I wanted my day job to be, and that was a great learning experience. It helped me develop discipline and drive. After I was honourably discharged, I started focusing on HR and training and development, which led to a job working for a small satellite office that had three employees and was about the size of a bedroom maybe. So, it really left a little room for advancement, even though it was really focused in on developing training and development programs for different organizations. So, at that point, I, I started looking for other jobs that might have a little bit more opportunity for growth, and I found a job working for a telecommunications association that was focused on standardization. I fell in love with the process immediately and I grew within that association. I fell in love with the process itself, getting engineers to work together, and I started working for a few great people that really gave me room to grow, and they mentored me. So, when I started working in telecom standards in the late 1990s, the dotcom boom was still really hot. And there were a lot of companies that were involved at that time. However, the number of women that were working in the development of standardization was limited. Within telecommunications, it seemed to depend really on the specific field of expertise regarding how many women were participating. So, for example, we saw stronger participation from women in ordering and billing, as well as in network rating and routing. But other areas such as optical networking, timing and synchronization and packet technologies and systems, they were heavily male. Many other committees in telecommunications, but that's a pretty good example of how it gets started, but you know, it's starting to get better.

[00:03:31] Host: And where is the standards development field now with regard to greater diversity and inclusion and gender responsiveness.

[00:03:40] Veronica Lancaster: I believe that there is greater awareness about the importance of diversity, inclusion, and gender responsiveness, which is a great start to improving behavioural changes. As part of my volunteer work, as you mentioned, I'm the president of the Board of Directors for Women in Standards. And that's an organization that's focused on promoting the importance of diversity, equity, and inclusion in standardization. We're a fairly small organization with over 500 individual members. But our beginnings were humble. We really started as a networking organization. We were supporting the importance of getting to know each other in the field. So, we started with just a few networking events among, women that were working in standardization in the Washington DC area. It's an interesting community in that, a lot of people that work in the community tend to stay involved in standards. Like me, they love it. So, as we started with just a few friends getting together now and then We grew into an organization that incorporated in 2019. These women that participated, they could see the importance of networking, sharing information, and learning from each other and supporting each other. So, what I love seeing, is how internationally that's been, going down the same path. For example, in my personal work in the International Electro Technical Commission, also known as the IEC, I'm never sure if everyone knows what that is, but they're a global organization that's focused on bringing more than 170 countries together to create international standards. So, we had a very similar experience in the IEC. I work within a couple of technical committees, but specifically TC 100, which is similar to the work that CTA does, in audio and video and multimedia. When I started, there were only a few women that were participating, but we began to gravitate toward each other, and we started creating our own network. Throughout our time we began hosting dinners during our face-to-face meetings, and we started discussing issues and challenges that we were all facing, and that led to support and growth. We began to volunteer more. When I started working in this TC, the leadership was mostly male. However, I'm happy to say that many of the women in that network were now holding leadership positions within TC 100, and were also our nation's head of delegations at times. So throughout that support, we volunteer to be leaders of working groups, ad hoc groups, strategic groups. And TC 100 is now chaired by a woman, Ulrike Haltrich of Sony, and she represents Germany. And she's part of that original network, so I'm happy to call them all friends, but I'm happy to see that that awareness and that support and networking overall, it's led to greater things for all of us. I think, networking and mentoring and these types of scenarios can lead to greater confidence and support through caring and friendship.

[00:07:01] Host: So, with the networking and awareness and all the exposure that you've had to the international community of women, what will it make easier for women, particularly young and emerging professionals, to have a greater voice on the decision-making table?

[00:07:16] Veronica Lancaster: Yeah, I thought it's a great question. I think. Coming back to networking and mentoring. Those are two of the greatest tools that can be used to boost confidence and support a talented professional, whether they're just starting a career or showing an aptitude for standardization. I have a colleague on my team that originally started in CTAs research department. Her master's degree in her education is really focused on research. Research has a really nice alignment with standardization in that you can start to see how some of the trends are indicators of future standardization needs. So, she helped us support our standardization efforts throughout the pandemic and even though we all started our work thinking it was just temporary, she fell in love with the work and with how standards are built. So, when we, you know, started to come through the pandemic and we had a job opening, she applied internally and, she's been with us for a couple of years now. She has such a strong interest in learning more about national standardization efforts, as well as international standardization efforts. So, we're really thrilled to have her. She has that natural understanding of the linkage between the trends, that you'll find through research and the need for standardization in emerging areas that can support those trends. But she really has a knack for understanding the importance of the process itself. So, through that introduction to standardization. Mentoring and maintaining that networking connection with her after the temporary work was over, we created a new standardization professional. So, I'm excited to see her take the reign someday. I think she's going to be in it for the long haul, and that's exciting. So, To me, that's really what's important. Mentoring those that you see have a natural understanding and ability maintaining your network. And also, I think it's especially important for women to see themselves in the leadership roles that they aspire to hold someday. I remember attending an international event with a younger professional on my team years ago, and we were watching an opening ceremony and she mentioned to me we're sitting next to each other that it was, kind of a stark image to see a sea of men in black suits in the opening ceremony. And she wasn't wrong. So, I think we have to think about what we're projecting and what that represents to the next generation. So, in addition to networking and mentoring, could start considering what it is that we're projecting. You know, is it more of the same or can we make an effort to make diversity, equity, and inclusion a priority?

[00:10:10] Host: And as more women step forward and take on leadership roles, what needs to happen for the standards development community itself to come together to make sure that these voices are truly heard, where it matters.

[00:10:24] Veronica Lancaster: You know, I think awareness is a huge factor. For example, the, the US hosted the, the last IEC general meeting in San Francisco over the last week of October, in the first week of November of this year. During that time, our meetings were face to face for the first time since the start of the pandemic. However, a lot of progress has been made, within gender responsive standards initiatives. So, for example, United Nations Economic Commission for Europe's Gender Responsive Standards Initiative. That itself led to future work by a variety of international standards bodies such as the IEC ISO, ASTM International, and then there's a variety of national and regional standards bodies that support gender responsive standards, and that includes governmental authorities, regional organizations, UN organizations, such as the International Trade Centre and UNICEF, as well as academic and research institutions. So, let's talk a little bit about gender responsive standards and, and what they are. These are standards that consider the distinct and different needs for different genders. They also consider, the efficacy of that standard and how it supports all people, so it's not separate standards for different genders. But rather one that considers equity and balanced representation, and that's within the standard and the development of the standard. So, considering you, you're the makeup of the engineers that are there to support it. So, in my opinion, it's that progress and awareness that has started to change thinking. During. IEC general meetings, I watched some of my colleagues from Japan propose changes to the minutes to change the word chairman to chair, and they noted that inclusiveness is the reason. Right. Isn't that great? Yeah, so it's that awareness shift that I think we're making, and I think that's going to lead to hearing more voices by really understanding that inclusiveness is something we, we must and should consider. We're going to look beyond the traditional wording and the implication of using that kind of wording. For example, within coding you'll see words like master and slave used to explain the relationship of, you know, one technology to the other. But we could use different wording, I think by considering, and realizing what those words mean. We'll start to make changes and I think that awareness begins to change the way that we think. So, I think there's still more work to be done, though. I think this is a fascinating one for me. Thinking about, both the recent surveys that we've done in Women in Standards and Crash Test Dummies. So back in 2020 Women in Standards, we did a survey of our members. And we asked them about, what the participation of women in standards committees look like. So, I think this was in mid-2020, in July of 2020, even at that point, the participation was 30% or less. So that's interesting. Even though we're seeing some differences, we're still not quite there yet. And the, the crash test dummy is the one that really hits home with the difference in gender responsive standards. Standards Council of Canada highlighted risks of under representation in their study it was called When One Size Does Not Protect All. So, they identify different risks with, with the crash test dummy. So, what they noted and it's really interesting is that the risk of being injured or killed in a car accident is 73% greater for women because crash test dummies are based on male anatomy. So, the majority of safety policy and research, it's based on a 171-pound, five-foot, nine-inch male body, and it's 26 pounds heavier than a female. We have huge differences in male and female anatomy. And there's been requests to regulators, automakers and, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration in the US to get a true female crash test dummy. But you know, it's starting to get there. , I've read a couple of articles about some Swedish engineers that are working on one, and also a, a group that's working with. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to begin using a female crash test dummy. So, I think right now what they're doing is they're using a scale down male version but that represents only the smallest percentage of like 5% of females. So, it's equivalent to like a typical 12- or 13-year-old male. So, we need, we do need to see progress and to me it's interesting that we're only just starting to see that progress but it's a great example of, of why we need gender responsive standards.

[00:15:39] Host: And as that awareness and those conversations begin as a senior woman in standards leader, how can you hold these institutions and industries more accountable for their diversity inclusion manifestos, policies, and all that they're saying right now?

[00:15:54] Veronica Lancaster: Yeah, I think it's important that we're willing to speak up about it. We need to tell everyone about the importance of diversity and inclusion, and we need to demand its consideration. For example, when I'm participating on a panel, or if, CTA is producing a panel, whether that's at the consumer electronics show or it's at our different, events we ensure that the panel is at least 40% diverse. So, if the panel is not diverse, and we're asked to participate, we should decline or we should ask them to consider that it be at least 40% diverse. By demanding that diversity is considered, we're going to start to hear interesting perspectives we might not have considered previously. And also, what I think is good is that we're giving opportunity to the next generation of speakers, influencers, engineers, inventors. And if we're really not considering factors such as gender, race, age, religion, or culture, we're leaving those voices out of the equation. So, gender is a great place to start. It's, easy to consider having at least a 40% diverse makeup of panellists, by gender. And then we should consider race, age, religion, culture, and the audience that we're trying to reach. You know, is the audience a national audience? Is it international? What is the message that we're trying to convey? So, I think when we're, you know, if I go back to that colleague, I was talking about that I brought to the international meeting, it was such an obvious thing to her that gender was not considered right, um, nor was race, age, or any other factors. She was right. So, I think we have to consider that message and we have to demand that consideration. That's going to start to make changes. It's, it's definitely for CTA started to make changes in the content that we're developing and the panelists that we're inviting to be a part of it, and it's been great so far. You know, we're getting to hear from a lot of different people that we really weren't getting to hear from before. If you're focused only on, you know, the absolute, top of the line speaker, like a Tim Cook from Apple. That's a great voice to hear, but we've definitely heard that voice, right? Mm. I think we have to consider other voices to bring to the table to get those additional perspectives.

[00:18:26] Host: And getting those additional perspectives means that, apart from just mentorship, what about succession planning? The next generation of professionals, the next generation of influencers, how important is that?

[00:18:37] Veronica Lancaster: It is so important. Throughout my career. I've met different friends and colleagues and I treasure those relationships. But more than that, I think about those that I would like to see carry the torch when I'm ready to retire. So over time, I've maintained those relationships with colleagues that I admire, and I've been lucky enough to nurture those relationships across different employers and bring them with me. So, that's been great. To me there's no greater accomplishment to, um, than to see those people that I've supported as a supervisor, as a mentor, or as a friend, to see them move forward in their careers. That means everything to me. I think it also, you know, it's important that we leave the world better than how we found it. So, that can be done through teaching what we've learned to the next generation and identifying, you know, things that they can do. And, and give them those positions. I think that we should not be afraid of succession planning. I've seen that in, in some different committees where we have, an engineer that has participated for a long time and in some companies it's difficult to come up with resources. And so rather than creating a succession plan, they just get by. But when we lose that person in the standards committee, we've lost that person. You know that that experience, it's gone. So, rather than fearing succession planning. I think if we look at how mentoring can really create the next generation of leaders, you know, especially looking back, going through the dotcom bust, I went through and a few recessions, you know, I, I've seen that nervousness around succession and planning. But for me personally, I've, you know, been able to create a network and, and see that network grow. I'm excited when my teammates are able to take on new leadership roles. and it's a good thing. It's, it's making sure that, you know, if we're honest with ourselves, it's a great thing to teach the next generation to survive with your knowledge.

[00:20:56] Host: While there are many SDOs and industry bodies working on gender responsive standards. How can they have more impact on the ground, not just in specific regions, but also globally? You attended the IEC's general meeting. What really stood out for you?

[00:21:11] Veronica Lancaster: Many things stood out for me, such as the examples of the secretariat for TC 100, considering inclusiveness in how we write our minutes, and the impact that such words have, but also in how many people attended and how we were able to network. We were able to see growth in the number of diverse leaders from different countries and genders, and that sticks out for me. But I think also in how we continue to cherish and nurture our networks over the years and through the pandemic, it's really important to consider those networks on the ground and to promote those networks. Mentoring and succession planning are important outputs of those networks. So, not only do we want to support the next generation, but we need to be able to transition our own work as we move up. And I think that, networking specifically at the IEC general meeting, is an important way to do that. So, the USNC we held, a Women at the IEC luncheon where we invited all of the women delegates that were, attending that day, if they had the time, we invited them to come have a lunch with us. And we were able, within the USNC to discuss some of the initiatives that are important to us. And we also initiated a survey in order to gather feedback from the guests that were attending so that we could learn what's important to them, what are the, you know, what's the relationship building aspects that they would like to see? Where could we have more cultural understanding? Because those are all important factors in negotiating consensus, and specifically in international standardizations, they're very important factors. So, through that networking, through that relationship building, we're, we're teaching that next generation where we're supporting the future of standardization.

[00:23:07] Host: And it's interesting that you alluded to culture because of course a lot of our previous guests alluded to cultural and regional sensitivities. How do you balance that with the mission to have more women in leadership positions?

[00:23:20] Veronica Lancaster: Yeah, it's a great question. I think a solid understanding of what those cultural and regional sensitivities are that's going to be important as a mentor and as a leader. But it's also important in, in how we, address some of these factors in building international standards, and in succession planning. So not only should a leader understand what's important in negotiating that consensus, but a leader has to be willing to train the next generation on why these things are important, why understanding of different cultural and regional sensitivities factor into diversity, equity, and inclusion. This all leads to a greater understanding of cultural and regional sensitivities. I think that's really important aspect in, in negotiating that consensus. We need to have more of those voices at the table, sharing their perspectives to achieve greater understanding. But we also have to be willing to understand where those other voices are coming from. So, I think having more women in leadership positions does not limit that understanding. I think it broadens it. I think if we consider the total population of women in 2021, it was 49.59%. and some of my favorite statistics in looking at women in STEM positions and specifically in STEM leadership positions, there's a variety of surveys, but it, it averages at women participating at approximately 25% to 27%. And then if you look at the leaders, the, the female leaders in those roles, that's around 10% to 11%. So, there's a lot of room for us to help broaden those positions. I think if you, start looking at that, at just the, you know, the even number of male and females in our population and then looking at trying to even that out more in the leadership roles that we hold, it's going to provide a more balanced perspective of the challenges we have as a human race. And then if we drill down by other factors such as race, age, culture, religion, other factors, we can see beyond our own specific challenges. So, the mission to improve greater diversity of women leaders, I think promotes a greater understanding of challenges and hopefully, a diversified leadership, it's going to result in, considering those factors that maybe were not previously considered. It's also going to help the next generation of younger engineers start to see themselves in those roles. So hopefully it's a win overall.

[00:26:11] Host: And it is going to be very broad based because like you said, there's a huge potential. Now clear call to action of this podcast is to have more women on STPs. So, for listeners of this conversation, what must they bring to the arena to really make a difference?

[00:26:29] Veronica Lancaster: Well, my greatest advice is to nurture your network, mentor when you can, consider succession planning as you advance. And really think about the words that you use. Think about that awareness that we can create by having these discussions. Treasure your relationships if you have a chance to mentor someone that you think can really represent the next generation. Do it. Not only is that going to be personally rewarding, but it's going to create allies and supporters that may wish to follow you, when you are hiring in the future. My experience has been exactly that. I've nurtured relationships and kept in contact with friends and stellar employees and and colleagues. And throughout that I've been able to support those careers and help them build their dreams, but also create my own dream team. And it's been an interesting experience in that some of the executives I've worked with throughout my time, they're aware of that network. So, when they're looking for someone, they'll ask me for recommendations and for opinions. So hopefully I have the chance, even if it's not working with me directly, it's working with people that I would recommend and, and them getting to know those, those great skills that they have as well. So, you know, I think that, rather than thinking that you’re training your replacement consider you're supporting your own successful retirements. You know, you're transferring knowledge to the next generation, and hopefully you're leaving the profession in a better place than how you found it. I think that helps you to identify, how to fill gaps when that's needed, but it also creates those relationships that are so meaningful and loyalty. I think when you truly care about the people you're nurturing and mentoring, they also care about you, and they become loyal to you. That's really the, the best advice I can give. it's certainly been successful for me. I have a dream team now, so I'm very excited about that. Hopefully, everyone out there can start building their dream team as well.

[00:28:50] Host: And just hearing you on this podcast is just like adding a whole new dimension and network. So, Veronica, thank you so much for being part of the Word to the W.I.S.E. Network and the podcast in speaking to us.

[00:29:03] Veronica Lancaster: Yes. Thank you so much for having me. I'm, really excited to be a part of this.

You can read the full transcript of the interview with Megan Hayes here:

Host: Megan Hayes, thank you so much for joining us in this Word to the Wise conversation.

[00:01:09] Megan Hayes: I would just like to thank UL for the opportunity and I'm excited to provide my perspective on diversity and inclusion in standards

[00:01:17] Host: . What an incredibly rich experience of 22 years in standards. Megan, tell us a bit more about the industries you worked in and the work you do now at NEMA.

[00:01:28] Megan Hayes: So, I started my career a long time ago in telecommunications at the Alliance for Telecommunications Industry Solutions. After about four years there, I moved to the Consumer Electronics Association, which is now the Consumer Technology Association where I worked in wireless power and product safety. I then came to NEMA and I worked in lighting and medical imaging. I spent about a year and a half at the Plastics Industry Association, which was really interesting as they're dealing with all kinds of sustainability issues. And about four years ago, I came back to NEMA as their Senior Technical Director, where I'm responsible for their overall technical program from the standards that NEMA develops to the organizations that we participate in, like UL and NFPA and the IEC. It's a lot on my plate, but I have the most amazing team to support me in moving the electro technical industry forward.

[00:02:28] Host: And looking back at your career path, when did it become critical to you personally to have more diverse opinion and decision making on standards development bodies? And how did that come about?

[00:02:40] Megan Hayes: I'm not sure if there's an exact specific moment, and I'll bet that most of my cohort would agree that it's, it's almost a spectrum of understanding the importance of stakeholder diversity. But as I thought about. You know how my thinking has evolved over time. There are a few conversations and , events that have happened that have really helped to shape my thinking. One is discussions with the American National Standards Institute and the United States Consumer Product Safety Commission about the critical importance of the consumer perspective in developing standards for product safety. Another is the focus on ESG that so many of our member companies have and, and how that's shaped thinking for trade associations like NEMA. The IEC governance and reorganization work that has led to the diversity advisory committee. And then finally, and I think one that we're all thinking about is the United Nations Sustainability Goals, specifically goal number five about, gender equality. And that's really helped over time to ensure that so many people in standards are now thinking, "Do we have the right people at the table to make the most effective standards that we can?"

[00:04:00] Host: And as chair of IEC's Diversity Advisory Committee, what are your key focus areas?

[00:04:07] Megan Hayes: So, before the Diversity Advisory Committee, there was a task force of the IEC, council board, then now just the IEC board and that diversity task force did an amazing job in setting the diversity advisory committee up for success. And they identified three key focus areas for diversity within the IEC and those are gender diversity, regional diversity, and stakeholder diversity. And you know, if you think about it for an organization as large and diverse as the IEC, where the members are countries and not companies, those three factors are really the correct factors for the IEC to be focused on.

[00:04:52] Host: And apart from considering stakeholder diversity and gender, how can standards bodies themselves address the question of greater representation of diverse voices on their own technical panels and boards?

[00:05:04] Megan Hayes: I think that the first step for any standards development organization is to really think about who are the right people to have at the table. , The IEC Diversity Task Force did a great job focusing the IEC on those three factors, but those aren't gonna be the correct ones for all standards development organizations. And once an SDO has thought about, you know, what are the right diversity factors, then it's key to create a program that really ensures that the SDO is trying to engage with, diverse stakeholders and the people that we, that really need to be at the table. Sometimes it's really difficult, you know, I mentioned conversations with ANSI and the US CPSC on, on consumer participation. It's hard to get consumers at the standards table, but it's not impossible. And, you know, reach out to your networks and your colleagues and, and folks at other SDOs and, and talk about to them about how they've gotten the right people at their table and, and take those lessons to heart in your own organization.

[00:06:08] Host: And apart from getting the right people to the table, also, how crucial is mentorship and succession planning by the current generation of standards professionals to pass on the baton to the next generation?

[00:06:22] Megan Hayes: I think right now mentorship, whether it's through a formal mentorship program or an informal mentorship between two committee members is critical. When I first started in standards 22 years ago, which sounds so crazy to me, it was a lot of sink or swim. Join this committee, sit on this panel and figure it out. I don't think that's the best way to bring the new generation in. And it's, it's certainly key to ensure not just that you have the right stakeholders on your committee, but to ensure that they're being engaged in the work. And without that mentorship and having somebody who's been there, kind of explain what's going on, what the rules are, how the procedures work, Folks are just gonna be confused and they're not gonna engage in the actual work at hand. And so from my perspective, Everybody that's been sitting on a technical panel for more than a few years should be doing their best to welcome new participants, to mentor them either formally or informally, and to ensure that we're not speaking what I call "standard speak" at meetings and explaining what's going on. You know, the more acronyms you'd use does not make you smarter. It just makes everybody else confused.

[00:07:45] Host: And it alienates people so that engagement doesn't happen. So when you look at the standards development community the way it is right now with regards to being more diverse and inclusive, is it about striking a fine balance between diversity and how different regions also define gender and inclusiveness?

[00:08:03] Megan Hayes: So, I think that depends upon the standards development organization for the International Electro Technical Commission, as I mentioned, our members, our national bodies are countries, and it's key that we are sensitive to different cultural expectations from around the world. For NEMA, uh, we don't have the same challenges that the IEC has, but different companies have different cultures. And so I think we have to strike that balance between wanting to ensure that we have diversity and understanding where our members are coming from, whether they be national bodies, companies or organizations. You know, for the IEC, when we focus on gender, the expert management system allows three choices. That is Mr. Ms. or Mx. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and I understand that here in the United States and in many other countries around the world, we consider gender on a much broader spectrum. But that's not true for all of the IEC member bodies. So the IEC had to strike that balance, and, and I think that they've done a good job of that, and, and I think every organization needs to ensure that they're understanding their member's culture and being sensitive to any of those needs.

[00:09:20] Host: And it's about striking those balances. But are there any examples from your experience of standards challenges that eventually worked out because they were open to and went along with more diverse perspectives?

[00:09:35] Megan Hayes: I could probably come up with dozens of them, Right? and I think anybody that's been in standards long enough could. I'll give one example. When I was in the consumer electronics industry, we, we were working with the US Environmental Protection Agency on, energy efficiency for televisions. Mm-hmm. , and they wanted to. Write their own standard. We convinced them that the right place to do that on, on how to measure the energy consumption of televisions was at the IEC. When we started to do that work, we realized because we had this international community that people around the world watched TV differently. Mm. and when you take a TV out of the box in the United States, it's set up differently than if you take it out of the box in Japan. And, uh, that led to what the IEC staff likes to call the most boring CD in the world, or D V D. And it literally is just a set of clips that represents how people watch TV around the world. that Other regulators could rely on that standard and ensure that it reflected their own population.

[00:10:46] Host: That is so interesting because you're taking into consideration so many different factors. So what is the impact on standards development when the consumer perspective, is seriously taken into consideration while developing those standards?

[00:11:00] Megan Hayes: I mean, I think at the end of the day, if you're talking about a consumer product, you wanna be designing that product for the consumer. And without the consumer perspective, you don't understand how the product is being used. I always say if you're in a discussion on standards development and you keep hitting a block or you don't know the answer, you don't have the right people at the table. A while back we were in discussions again with the CPSC about the issue of button cell batteries and little children getting ahold of them, eating them, and getting really sick. And the consumers at the table were insistent that the only way to solve this problem was to ensure that the compartment where that battery was could only be opened using a tool. And when we discussed it with them, The engineers at the table were able to come up with other solutions that were just as robust, but allowed for different product designs. And it, and without that discussion with the consumer, without having those discussions with the CPSC about the impact of button cell batteries being available to children, those kinds of innovative discussions would not have happened. So, you know, I think at the end of the day, getting the consumers there, whether it's officially as part of the consensus body or unofficially having those discussions at round tables like we did at the CPSC, is only going to lead to better and more robust standards, whether that be about product safety or whether that be about another feature or function of the product.

[00:12:40] Host: And it all goes back to getting the right people to the table. And one of the calls to action of this podcast is to have more women from diverse backgrounds participate on STPs. As an industry leader yourself, what do you believe must change to make them feel heard?

[00:12:58] Megan Hayes: So I think one thing is getting more women, and I know that, you know, that that seems counterproductive. If, if the, if the challenge is getting more women and the solution is getting more women, how are we gonna do that? But, I've certainly seen more women at every standards organization that I work with over the years and. There's a, um, there's a tipping point, right? The, the research tells us that if you are looking to engage women or minority populations, it's like 30%, if 30% of your group is from that population, they feel more comfortable. One example that I love to give is on the United States National Committee to the IEC. When I first started, there were maybe two or three women there, and that was it. And over time we realized that. There were more and more of us and, and organically we started to have what we called the Women at the USNC dinner. It wasn't anything official, but it really gave us an opportunity to get to know each other outside of that, you know, work committee. And it made us all more comfortable in expressing our voices. So, You know, I like to encourage women to, to formally or informally get together. Last week I was in San Francisco at the IEC general meeting. It was really, really exciting to be there in person again after so long and, UL and NEMA and, CTA and a bunch of other organizations sponsored our Women in the IEC lunch. Mm. And it was so amazing. I it, the lunch itself was great and the speakers were fantastic, but the thing that I saw at the end that was the most encouraging, was women didn't wanna leave the room. They wanted to talk to each other and network. And, you know, I think that's great for the IEC and those kinds of things need to be happening more and more.

[00:15:01] Host: And for listeners of this conversation, considering the, that move to bring more and more women together, what should they bring to the table?

[00:15:10] Megan Hayes: I think that depends upon the standard that we're talking about or the issue but one thing is to bring your own perspective, whatever that is. If you're talking about, you know, a consumer product for children and you're a mom or a grandmom or an aunt or a sibling, think about how that is gonna impact your child. The other thing is when you're, there's a great push. From the UN, from the IEC, from ISO, as you mentioned earlier, for, gender-responsive standards. And if you're not bringing your perspective as a woman to those standards and saying, This is different for women, the standard is never going to reflect how women are gonna use those products. So as a woman, you just need to bring your authentic self, I think, and I think that's great advice for anybody at a standards table. Don't be afraid to raise your voice. Don't be afraid to provide your perspective, because if you don't, nobody's gonna listen. You know, they always say the, only stupid question is the one that goes unasked. And if you don't ask, the answer is always no. Mm.

[00:16:24] Host: Megan Hayes, thank you so much for your perspective and for speaking to us and giving us your time on the Word to the W.I.S.E. Podcast.

[00:16:31] Megan Hayes: Thank you very much. I really appreciated the opportunity. And, you know, I'm happy to answer questions from any of your listeners. So, I'm excited for more diverse standards development and to continue the work of the IEC Diversity Advisory Committee.

You read the transcript of the interview with Muhammad Ali and Caroline Treuthardt, here:

Host: Ali and Caroline. Thank you for joining us on this Word to the Wise podcast.

[00:00:48] Caroline Treuthardt: Thank you for having us.

[00:00:49] Muhammad Ali: Glad to be here.

[00:00:51] Host: Could you both tell us a bit about what you do in your organizations, especially around developing more inclusive practices with respect to standards development.

[00:01:01] Caroline Treuthardt: Sure, thanks again for having us here it is a pleasure to be speaking with you. And I can give you a quick intro into what we are doing here at UL Standards and Engagement. So, regarding inclusive language, we are currently in process of developing our own internal guidance for this approach. And that means drafting everything from documents, for handling our in-house policies and procedures. As well as planning for how we want to approach this topic in our standards catalogue. I, myself, I am a member of the inclusive language team that has been tasked with developing this guidance. And so, this team is in its infancy, and we have just begun drafting methods for how to introduce and implement the updated terminology. And in this stage, we are having to review and define our approach. It is really understanding the why of inclusive language to ensure that we reach the intended impact of the how. So that, includes educating our staff, our stakeholders, on why we are choosing to go down this journey of inclusive language. And then, you know, determining the best ways to have these terms implemented into our existing standards.

[00:02:08] Muhammad Ali: Thank you for having me. I work for Industry Standards, Program Office responsible for managing the overall external standards engagement and leading HP strategic standardization efforts in US based standards organization. HP participates in over fifty-five standards development organizations, trade organizations, consortia, and fora, with over four hundred experts involve in standards development. Creating a culture of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion has long been integral to HP success. And we think that diversity and inclusion at all levels drive innovation and performance. Internally I lead internal outreach efforts on diversity and inclusion for our office. And we have recently launched an internal toolkit for our experts participating in standards development activities. You know, we started out on these efforts, within our office by understanding our current demographics of our participants, and then coming up with a plan on how to expand diversity within standards development activities. So one of the outcomes of that plan was a recently released internal toolkit to educate our internal stakeholders on United Nations Sustainable Development Goals, specifically SDG Five on Gender Responsive Standards and inclusive terminology relevant industry standards efforts and then also providing them the guidance on creating and finding gender responsive standards.

[00:03:45] Host: And as both of you do these interesting things, why has inclusive language become so important in the standards development process? What does it bring to the table?

[00:03:57] Muhammad Ali: Standards development is not possible without the use of collaborative teams. We call them working groups in most of the standards development committees, and really, you know, effective use of inclusive language is essential to pull productive collaboration and really promoting diversity in, in standards, development activities. And language that is racially, ethnically, and culturally inclusive is effective in promoting respect, reflecting diversity, and avoiding any kind of negative stereotypes. Standards, procedures, and any kind of relevant technical documentation is therefore a powerful tool for building inclusion and supporting diversity. There are currently efforts underway in majority of the SDOs, major SDOs to create principles of inclusive terminology and other relevant policy documents pertaining to promoting diversity and inclusion at the org level. So, in my view, standardization is really a key to challenging gender inequality and standards and a standards development process, play a critical role in promoting gender equality.

[00:05:16] Caroline Treuthardt: I absolutely agree and second everything that Ali has just said. As he noted, HP and others and us here at UL Standards and Engagement, it is our belief that inclusive standards will open that standards development process to a wider set of stakeholders. And our intention as an SDO is to build the best, most applicable, most useful standards that we can. And if our spoken language or our written terminology is preventing full participation from our stakeholders, if they in any way feel unsafe or unwelcome, we are not going to be able to develop that standard to be as applicable as much as we intended to be. And so, for us to do our jobs well, and to serve the public by keeping everyone safe, you know, we need to have those traditionally marginalized voices at the table. And by incorporating inclusive language, we are going to create an environment where we welcome that wider array of voices. We include those experiences and hopefully more data actually to review and consider. And by inclusive data in my mind, I am thinking, you know, it is data that covers a wider set of demographics, such as a pain threshold or a body dimension of a woman or a child versus men, which is typically the data points that we have readily available. And so, with all of this included, this ensures that the science behind the safety in our standards is reaching more folks and helping more products and more systems be safe as it is more applicable to more people. And in more situations,

[00:06:51] Host: And as, you go about making standards applicable and you go and try and bring all that data in. How do you engage existing groups of decision makers with the whole idea of making standards development language more inclusive and all encompassing.

[00:07:06] Caroline Treuthardt: That's a great question. And this is definitely, a piece that we are still working on. And our executive team asked us this exact question, not too long ago. So, as we are kind of going down this path, first you're saying, you know, what levels, like, how do you engage these different groups? Well, pretty much we are going to speak to anybody that will listen. And as we are doing that, we are kind of figuring out the different, the best ways I should say to approach these different groups. And so far, we've kind of been able to weed out two prongs of an approach, and I am sure there is many more, but so far, we've, we've kind of stumbled upon two. And the first is really education. And I think that education piece is going to be very dependent on who you are speaking to. So obviously if you are speaking to executives or decision makers, you know, they are going to want to hear more of the business case. And if you are speaking to, the grumbly folks who just, think you are being, reactionary to the situation going on in the world today. You know, you can kind of break it down in a different way. To show it's just the difference of the way you approach it. And you could show some different things that way. So, it is really all about the education piece. And luckily internally here at, at UL Standards and Engagement, we have a group that specifically works with engaging our stakeholders. And so, we have been working with them to develop a focus group and these focus groups we were asking, you know, our stakeholders, what kind of information do you need to be engaged in this conversation? What do you think that you're going to need to make your best decision? and through that, we're hoping, you know, to develop a toolkit and Ali, I might reach out to you after this and kind of see how you're doing on your toolkit. So that's that's the first approach is defiitely, education. And then the second prong is the implementation. So, as we are kind of sharing this message with our stakeholders, a lot of the feedback, I should say, pushback, you know, if we, if we do get pushback, it is usually they are concerned with how we are going to do it. You know, are we going to do a copy paste and just ignore the application of the term where it is in the standard for, for example. And so, they really want to know what our plan is for implementing that. And that is where we are trying to engage them, to have them be part of that conversation to make sure that the right word goes in and you know, is it, is it a copy paste with just a word exchange? Is it rewriting the whole sentence? Do we need to re-evaluate what we are trying to say. So, it is I think we have a lot of interesting conversations ahead of us and I'm looking forward to it.

[00:09:42] Host: And so, as you educate and have those conversations to implement more inclusive language, for the sake of our listeners, if you could just identify some terms or terminology that can be avoided or replaced by other more inclusive terms?

[00:09:57] Muhammad Ali: Yeah, sure. Terminology should be clear and unambiguous conveying only the intended meaning to all readers. And we can produce more inclusive documents by avoiding terms with negative connotations. So, I will give you some examples, blacklist or whitelist. You know, these are some of the terms that are, used in many technical standards currently. And these terms have the negative connotation of, racial discrimination. So, some of the alternative terms that, that we could use instead of blacklist could be block list, denial list or drop list similar to that for whitelist, we could replace that with allow list, access list, or permit list. So, you see that, if you think about rewriting the text, instead of directly replacing the non-inclusive term, it actually makes the text much more clear and allow you to replace the text, with the more inclusive term I will give you another example: master/slave. That is also a very common term that is used in many technical documents. The negative connotation there is, human slavery. So, alternatives to those terms could be: main/secondary, leader/ follower or primary/secondary, and so on. So, you know, these are just some of the examples to kind of give you an idea of what we are dealing with when we try to replace the non-inclusive terminology with inclusive terms.

[00:11:31] Host: That's so interesting. And Caroline, you, you alluded to the fact that you wanted to avoid any cut paste situation. So, if you give us some examples of where it has worked and where more thinking may need to be developed.

[00:11:45] Caroline Treuthardt: Yes, so we are still in the early stages of our implementation, so I do have a couple of examples. And so, the first one deals with Internally when we had originally introduced this to our team, we had done, a brief introduction to inclusive language, speaking to the points that Ali's made of how it is inclusive. And we, we want to kind of remove any sort of racial or colloquial language that, is not necessary or respectful and our next step was to share, you know, a list of terms for everyone to review. And so, we gathered the NIST list of words that they have put together as well as INCITS. And they have got a pretty comprehensive list and we shared that with our team. And we said, you know, if you have seen any other terms in the standards that you work with, you know, go ahead, and add 'em to this list and we'll, we'll review it. And one of the feedback, one set of feedback that we got from our team members, was that we were being woke and that we were trying to soothe white guilt. And, so I, I was not expecting that response by any means. And I was like, okay, all right. So first we realized that we did not do a very good job explaining why. Right. We, we needed to do a better job at that. But the second thing, and what I think is very important and, and what I was mentioning previously is, is the implementation. So, I called that team member. We had a lovely conversation and I just kind of asked them to explain more, like, what were their concerns? What were they thinking we were going to do? So, I could explain what we were actually planning to do. And it really came down to, they had, there was a previous event where UL had tried to do this before, and they just did a copy paste and it didn't make sense in context. And so, we definitely do not want to do that. I guess that is one example of like, it started out, well, it kind of got bad and then it kind of got better again so, but another one we're going to introduce this as well for the first time to our technical committee and, I've shown the presentation to the group. And we are going to talk about it here in a couple weeks. And the feedback I have gotten so far is really positive. But they are like, but the words you are using, we do not like, and I am like, that is cool. Let us talk about that. Let us let us see what the right word is. So, I am, I'm really excited to kind of see how that conversation goes.

[00:14:06] Host: Let us talk about it. It is a very evolving and expansive exercise. So where can SDOs Caroline that is where you come in and the industry Ali that's where you come in, come together, and collaborate better to make inclusive language universally applicable. The reason we ask is that we do have a complex mix of geographical, cultural, and other differences to take into account. How mindful must we be of these nuances?

[00:14:35] Muhammad Ali: You know, there, there is definitely a room for collaboration here and collaboration and coordination is essential in this activity. You know, there there's several similar activities in progress at many standards development organization, and the problem really arises if each SDO is coming up with different alternatives for the same non-inclusive term. Therefore, you know, I think coordination and collaboration is important to make this initiative successful via, some sort of joint standards development activities, you know, using effective liaisons, and maybe doing some sort of like a targeted outreach, to, to get the right stakeholders involved in the development efforts.

[00:15:21] Caroline Treuthardt: Absolutely. And if I can add some responses there as well to build off of, kind of what Ali was saying, we are in that same boat, we don't want to come up with terms that, you know, for example, the electrical committee for electrical panels, that kind of thing. We do not want to come up with words that they're not familiar with and that they don't agree to. So, we are really looking towards, other institutions to give us guidance. So, we want that type of guidance from say the national electric code. And I know that is something that they're working on now. So, we are involved with them to know what words they are going to propose and potentially put into their documents. And that, in turn, is what we are going to recommend to our technical committees. And we are going to point back to that.

[00:16:08] Muhammad Ali: That's great Caroline, I am happy to hear those efforts. I think that is the way it should be done.

[00:16:14] Host: Interesting. And how does this exercise really contribute to the larger mission of achieving sustainable development goals?

[00:16:21] Muhammad Ali: By using inclusive terminology, you are actually contributing to the overall goal of gender responsive standards, and therefore also contributing to United Nations, Sustainable Development, or specifically SDG five on gender equality. ISO and IEC have both mapped their standards recently to UN SDGs. And you can actually now search standards meeting specific SDGs using their search tool. So, you know, the, these voluntary consensus-based documents incorporating inclusive terminology, removes technical barriers to trade, builds trust, promotes safety, interoperability, and performance while translating those ambitions from the UN SDGs into concrete actions.

[00:17:15] Host: And what is the work that has gone in so far towards achieving those goals?

[00:17:21] Caroline Treuthardt: Well, I know from our side, you know, as I've shared, we've done a lot of work internally, but we are reaching out like, as Ali had mentioned before, we don't want everyone stepping on each other's toes and kind of developing their own, you know, path to success. I think it is definitely something that we all need to walk along together. So, on the team that I mentioned internally, the inclusive language team. We have a couple of members who are participating in INCITS, they are definitely a leader in this. As well as Ali just reminded me that we have some team members on the ISO group but I, myself actually sit on the IEEE P3400 Work Group. They are the IEEE is working on developing an inclusive language standard specifically for technical terminology and communications. And so that is again, that is we want them to be the leaders and we want them to kind of push that, but we are all, you know, all hands-on deck and we're going to do everything we can to help them along that process. And so, once they have got that standard, that is easy for us to take back to our technical committees and point to and say, all right, let us let us look what they have done. Let us look what ISO's done. Let us incorporate those into to the standards. I think it just helps kind of build the case.

[00:18:33] Muhammad Ali: Yeah, and, and I am just going to follow up on what Caroline just mentioned. You know, besides INCITS and IEEE, which both are working on national standard for inclusive terminology as was just mentioned. Recently, ISO and IEC have also created a joint working group on inclusive terminology and, and in fact, sub clause, 8.6 of ISO IEC directives part two explicitly requires the use of inclusive terminology in all ISO and IEC documents, wherever possible. So, and I have mentioned this before that many SDOs are taking up this initiative, but really the key, is to ensure that we have this collaboration and coordination also going on.

[00:19:17] Host: So, this collaboration coordination clearly is becoming a theme that is going to be important. Where should the focus now be, to taking this mission of more inclusive language and terminology and standards development forward?

[00:19:29] Muhammad Ali: I think the focus should be to not duplicate the efforts of other SDOs, but to leverage and build on what has already been published and, and really create an international standard on inclusive terminology. I think that is where we are we have a gap there. We also need to ensure that standards development committees have the required training, tools and resources to effectively implement the inclusive terminology. Because you can develop all the relevant standards, and they can be published, but if, if, if it is not being used, then you know, what is the value of it? So, we, we really want to make sure that, while we are working on this initiative of getting a standard out and publishing it, we also equipped the standards development committee members with the required resources for them to actually implement what is in the standard.

[00:20:22] Caroline Treuthardt: I absolutely agree with everything Ali just said. We definitely need support in that. And I think having those international standards to refer to would definitely help. And I would say, I think my take on that is is kind of building it to the next step is, you know, we are, we're a standards company. We write standards. Our sister company uses standards. But it is really, it is also about a culture change and that's kind of where I see the main step forward. So, it is, it is just like learning a new language or trying to break a habit. Like I try very hard not to cuss all the time. And so, you have to replace those words. And so, this is just, it is a mind shift, and you have to take your time and try to remember what the correct word is going to be. So, I think we need to be pushing towards that main culture shift in have inclusive language in the way that we speak to our friends and our family and, and just use that kind of across the board. And, but we also need to allow that room for grace because people are going to slip up. So, it is definitely a learning curve, but it's, I think it's something that we need to take bigger than just at work. I think it needs to go larger than that.

[00:21:32] Host: So, developing an international standards and culture change, Ali and Caroline, that was so interesting. Thank you so much for taking out the time to speak with us on the Word to the WISE podcast.

[00:21:44] Caroline Treuthardt: Thank you for having us.

[00:21:46] Muhammad Ali: Thank you for having us.

You can read the full transcript of the conversation between Sonya Bird and Mark Ramlochan here:

Sonya Bird: Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here today with such an esteemed person in the field of diversity. Mark, how are you doing?

Mark Ramlochan: I'm doing, I'm doing well. Sonya. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having this conversation.

Sonya Bird: I am too. And it's so exciting. What we're talking about today is of course, gender diversity and gender responsive standards. And as you know, Mark, the UNECE Gender Responsive Standards Initiative aims to provide a practical framework for standards bodies. Seeking to make standards, they develop and the standards development process they follow, gender responsive. And I know that UL has been working for quite a while to consider signing that declaration and quite a number of international standards bodies have signed the declaration. Why is it that we have signed that declaration now?

Mark Ramlochan: Great question. You know, I think timing is a very important element of this and taking a look at the signing of the UNECE Gender Declaration. I look at it that that establishes UL Standards and Engagement as highlighting our commitment, right? Our commitment towards working towards creating gender responsive standards and achieving greater gender balance representation and inclusion in their standards, development process. I think it's also significant because we want to establish UL Standards and Engagement as a leader in supporting the achievement of gender equality and the empowerment of women and girls through standardization. Earlier this year, we launched a brand new, brand and organization through UL Standards and Engagement. And with that launch, we looked at this as the perfect time and opportunity to align our strategy on diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives. And the signing of this declaration, which really does memorialize our commitment to equality and to gender inclusion. To date for the, the last number of years, we've been working on some great initiatives, supporting gender and inclusion, but through the signing of this declaration, I see it as that it will formalize and amplify those initiatives while signaling to the rest of the world, that gender equality and gender responsiveness is a strong area of focus for UL Standards and Engagement.

Sonya Bird: Oh, that's wonderful. Mark. Thank you. So, I know that the UN ECE gender responsive standards initiative has a few objectives. One is to strengthen the use of standards and technical regulations as tools to attain the sustainable development goal five. Which is on achieving gender equality and empowering women and girls. the second one is on integrating a gender lens in the development of standards and technical regulations. And the third is on elaborating gender indicators and criteria that could be used in standards development. And so now that UL Standards and Engagement has signed what are our next steps in addressing that gender issue?

Mark Ramlochan: Well, Sonya you're right. Signing the declaration. That was a fantastic milestone, but this is really where the real work begins now. And as you pointed out earlier, the Gender Responsive Initiative under UN E C E provides a practical framework, a practical way forward for standards bodies who want to develop standards and their process to be more gender responsive. And in taking a look at the actual declaration, we made a pledge, and we made a pledge to three particular things. The first has to do with affirming the gender responsive standards and standards development declaration, which we did. We affirmed it through the signing. The second piece is creating and proactively implementing a gender action plan for our organization. And the third aspect that we pledged is tracking progress and collecting, ensuring data, success stories, and good practices. So, through the signing of this declaration and supporting those three points, I see the key next step is developing a meaningful gender action plan.

Sonya Bird: Gender action plan sounds so important. So, can you tell me what exactly that means?

Mark Ramlochan: Absolutely. You know, I look at a gender action plan as a roadmap, right? A roadmap for the activities, the objectives we hope to achieve related to gender responsiveness. It's also a great way for the strategic objectives that we'll be pushing forward to be linked to a time bound framework. You know, when exactly are we going to be pushing and achieving these objectives? The action plan also gives great visibility into those objectives we hope to achieve and provides a, you know, I called it a multi-pronged approach to achieving gender responsive standards. This is our personal organization's action plan. It's our articulation of how we support the declaration. So, to me, that level of visibility, that level of accountability, is important. It's important to signal that this is more than just a document we have signed and that we'll file away in a draw., it helps elevate it that this action plan and signing the declaration will be the basis for a strategy and the subsequent supporting initiatives that will help us be accountable and really express our resolve to work towards creating gender inclusive standards, , gender responsive standards, and making our organization more gender inclusive as well..

Sonya Bird: I love it, Mark. I think it's important that we not only signed the declaration, but we're putting that plan together. That's a very important next step. So just, what would you say are the themes that support our gender action plan?

Mark Ramlochan: This is, it is such a critical piece, selecting themes, right? When selecting the themes for our gender action plan, we're striving to balance practicality with impact. We want to be as impactful as possible, but yet be attainable. While the empowerment of women and girls, which is SDG number five, as you mentioned, constitutes just one of the 17 goals. To me, it's a prerequisite to achieving each and every one of the goals. So, it's appropriate to consider standards through a gendered lens ones that recognize that systemic misrepresentation and asks the, how can the process better support the fight for gender equality? So, through our gender action plan, looking at a number of themes, our approach to fulfilling this plan will be on a series of horizons. For horizon one will aim to establish a tenable foundation and those themes that we're looking at right now, they include representation, the technical applicability of standards requirements across genders and education on gender responsiveness.

Sonya Bird: And that's great. So, I know with, with representation we hear a lot about the need for diversity, right? And, from my experience sitting on technical committees you look around the room. I would look around the room and there were very few women in there. And so how, how can we get more women engaged and make sure that we have that gender representation within standards?

Mark Ramlochan: So, we feel that promoting women's participation standards development, that's a fundamental element to creating gender responsive standards. Highlighting representation as part of our action plan provides that practical and measurable way to improve gender responsiveness in the standards. And unfortunately, right now we don't have the disaggregated information, the data on the gender breakdown of experts participating on our standards, technical panels, to really understand how many women represent and participate in our standards, development work and where do they participate. Taking a look at some of the work of U N E C E they've informally surveyed some standards, developing bodies to assess the current participation of women in their activities. Many organizations similar to UL Standards and Engagement simply don't have that disaggregated information on gender breakdown. However, the ones that did it painted a very clear picture of, of disparity in representation. For example, at the IEC of the 45,000 experts that contribute to the IEC activities, only about 5,000 were women. Another organization And in Canada where I'm based, women make up almost half of the labor force yet only account for 24% of experts on Canadian technical committees at ISO and IEC. So, with this, with this information and these trends, we're aiming our action plan to measure and improve the representation of women on technical committees and ensuring that the meetings that they participate in are inclusive to foster participation.

Sonya Bird: Excellent. Thank you, Mark. The other key theme you mentioned was around the idea of technical applicability of standards requirements. And I know, some of the examples I've heard about where a standard maybe didn't consider the size of a woman's hand, for example, with, gloves, for firefighters, I've heard that as an issue. If the gloves are not adequately fitting, they're not going to give the proper degree of protection, how have you included that in the gender action plan for UL Standards and Engagement?

Mark Ramlochan: Yes, technical applicability is such, such an important aspect, right? To, for the coverage of, of standards to ensure that they're impactful for everyone. To me, it's crucial that standards represent the interest, the needs, the experiences and the expectations of both men and women. And I think looking at the data and looking at some examples of standards, going back. You know, to my earlier theme on representation, historically technical committees have been made up of male contributors who rarely examined the gender dimension and not really consider the unique, specific needs of women in standards development. One striking example is the conventional three-point seatbelt used in cars designed in the 1950s. They did not take into count the consideration of bodies of women and in particular, pregnant women. And as a result, women have been more likely than men to sustain severe injuries in automotive crashes. And these have been the leading cause of accidental, fetal death related to maternal trauma for decades. So taking both women and men as the norm now has led to the development of safer seat belt standards, um, designed for broader populations. I think it's also important as we look at technical applicability to go beyond just physical dimension, we need to consider other factors such as, you know, body fat percentage peripheral vision, sensitivity to sound, pain tolerance and, and various strength characteristics when developing standards and when developing requirements such each of these factors can have an impact on the suitability of requirements for certain standards. Through our gender action plan, we aim to better understand the applicability of standards requirements with relation to human morphology and take the standards that are to date what I would call gender blind, right? Gender blind, meaning that they don't currently take gender into account and transitioning them to become gender aware where they examine, and they address gender considerations in some way.

Sonya Bird: Yes. And I think it's important to note all of the examples that, that we've given those I gave and those you gave, there was never any intentional. misuse of data or anything like that, it was really just a matter of, of these committees, not considering, , the full impact, right. Or the full opportunity. And I am pleased to see that there have been advances made, in all of the areas that we've talked about so far to consider that there are some specific needs of women. So that's, that's a very big plus. The third, , theme that you mentioned, I think was on education. You said education and on gender responsiveness. Was that right? And, and can you () that's right). Talk a little bit about that?

Mark Ramlochan: That's right. You know, I look at education as definitely a key component to address, some of those earlier points. I mean, as you mentioned, the gender-blind standards for the large part, those were not intentional. You know, a lot of that was just lack of representation, a lack of understanding and awareness of the needs, of genders, of the women being represented on standards as well. And I mentioned earlier that the issue of representation to me is an issue of equity. And education is important since I see the root of some inequities that exist are really related to biases that exist and these could be unconscious biases. So, I hope, you know, through our gender action plan to push a stronger education unconscious and an unconscious bias as an important tool. Another area of education that I see as important through our action plan is gender inclusive language where using gender inclusive language means speaking and writing in a way that does not discriminate against a particular sex or social gender or gender identity and does not perpetuate gender stereotypes. And given the significant role that language takes in shaping cultural norms and social behaviors, the use of inclusive language in our standards. It really is a powerful way to promote diversity and inclusion. And I think the final, you know, kind of point around education would be for the standards development authors themselves around the technical requirements. Education to standards authors on how to properly understand and integrate gender or biological differences into safety requirements. So, some of this education would be. Almost like the right questions to ask. Right. Asking the right questions to me is the key entry point. Does the standard proposal differentiate between men and women? If not, is it based on research on both sexes or is it male or female reference model? If it does, how, how adequate are the implications investigated in relation to other social or biological factors? So, you know, these are, these are just a few demonstrative questions that I think technical committees and, and standards development committees need to be aware of when developing standards, when developing requirements to ensure that that they're technically applicable to all genders.

Sonya Bird: So, Mark, we've talked about UL Standards and Engagement signing the U N E C E declaration, and then the resulting gender action plan, that UL Standards and Engagement has developed. What would you say are the intended impacts of that action plan? What, what do we hope to accomplish?

Mark Ramlochan: Such a good question, Sonya, you know, I'm grateful that for that question. but it it's complex, you know, it's a very complex question considering, you know, where we are in, in the development, right. We're very early in the development of our action plan. It's undisputable that these commitments will contribute to bringing new talent in standardization, have better representation of women at the standards development table and expand the diversity of the professionals of those involved in these activities. This to me will enhance the quality of the final standard, making it more relevant to a wider audience. I looked at the timing of, you know, we've just signed this declaration. And as I mentioned, there are over 80 signatories to this declaration, Sonya. I know that ISO and IEC and some other international bodies have signed , the declaration as well. What do you see as has worked well or possibly what can we learn from other signatories?

Sonya Bird: Oh, yes, that's a, a great question, Mark. , I'd say probably the most notable thing that IEC and ISO did was to establish this Joint Strategic Advisory Group on gender responsive standards. And I was very happy to be part of that group. And in fact, our work is still ongoing. but already we've seen a few advances. And the first thing that JSAG did was to develop a guidance and assessment form, that would assist the committees in developing gender responsive standards. And it's actually very similar to some of the things Mark that you mentioned, that's happening here at UL Standards and Engagement, but the guidance indicates that all participants in the standards development process have a role to play in considering questions of gender responsiveness throughout the process. And there are a few basic steps that were defined and the first is to assess diversity of thought in the committee. So that goes to, already the representation piece that, that you mentioned and consider if there are need to encourage and recruit, you know, women and others in the drafting group. The second one is to assume that there are implications because of gender differences. It's really think about the fact that there are differences and assume that there are implications because of it, within the standards development. And then the guidance also indicates that you should consider that there are potential gender implications, accounting for both physical and social aspects of gender. And then, probably the most important thing that the JSAG has understood is that we do need this sex, disaggregated data. And that's also something Mark that you mentioned how important it is to rely on data to understand gender differences and needs of, of various users of standards under development. And one of the things that the JSAG found is that data is not always available. And, so that it's a way to encourage technical committees to, to seek it out or determine if there are other sources that need to be, reached out to, help address that question, could even be the need for additional research, but, this again is, what, IEC and ISO has already been working towards with that JSAG and, I'm happy that there is a lot of overlap and similarity, between what we're seeing here at UL Standards and Engagement. excellent. Mark. I think this has been a very interesting conversation today. And is there anything else that you want to mention to our listeners?

Mark Ramlochan: Yeah, Sonya, I think it's been a fantastic conversation. I think there's so much great work yet to do ahead of us and we position ourselves so well through the signing of this declaration. I guess, you know, my final ask for listeners is simply a call to action, you know, in that we cannot do it alone. The success of this strategy and the action plan it'll depend on you and all the listeners, the key dependent on stakeholders engaged in the network to participate, particularly have women, you know, seek out opportunities to participate on our standards development committees as well, have their voice heard around the table. I think, you know, addressing the gender gap in standardization demands a concerted effort from all parties. You know that I hear this premise, that gender responsiveness is, you know, a quote unquote women's issue. I don't think it is. I think it's a fundamental human rights issue that everyone needs to support, and everyone needs to be involved in at some level. So, I would love our listeners to stay tuned for some of the actions, the initiatives, the supporting initiatives to our gender action plan, and constantly be vigilant, looking for opportunities to participate in our standards development activities as well. So, thank you Sonya very much for this, this opportunity for the conversation I appreciate it, very much.

Sonya Bird: Thank you, Mark. It's certainly been a highlight of my day. Thank you.

Mark Ramlochan: Thank you.

You can read the transcript of the interview with Michelle Parkouda, here:

Host: Michelle Parkouda. It's really great to have you on this season of the Word to the Wise.

[00:00:48] Michelle Parkouda: Thank you Shivraj. It's great to be here.

[00:00:50] Host: Tell us Michelle, a bit about yourself. What led you to research on gender and standards?

[00:00:58] Michelle Parkouda: I'm going to be honest with you. I never imagined I would do research on this topic. Gender equality has always been something that's been really interesting to me, but honestly, I had no idea what standards were. So, a number of years ago, I, I saw a job opportunity and I saw the job description and I went through a description and I thought, oh, I can do all of those things. But the job description was through a recruiter. And so it didn't name the organization. So, I put in my application, I got a call the next day saying, you know, we wanted you to come in. And then they told me what the organization was. And as soon as I heard what the organization was, I said, Hmm, I'm not sure this is for me. And I did that thing that women do where I knew that I was qualified and I met all these qualifications, but then I had that little doubt because I thought that organization, and it's not familiar to me. I don't have enough knowledge of it. So maybe I'm not qualified for this position. And so, I hesitated, but I have a really pushy husband. And so, he's like, no, no, just go for it, go for it. And so I did, I applied and I went through with the interview process and I ended up getting the job. Even when I got the job, I was like, what have I done? I'm not sure this is the right fit for me. , My job was to demonstrate the economic and social value of standards. And so thankfully I've been given a lot of autonomy within that, and there have been initiatives that have taken place. So, in, in particular, the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe, they have their gender responsive standards initiative. And as I started to hear about that work and work that was happening in other places. It really started to inspire some of the research that I did. And it really, it really resonated with me. And so now here I am.

[00:02:31] Host: And so why is it so important to understand that link between standards and gender equality?

[00:02:39] Michelle Parkouda: So I think, I think like me, a lot of people aren't really aware of what standards are and they don't realize how much of a role they play in our society and in our life. There's research that shows that 93% of global trade is impacted by technical regulations, which include standards. And so what that means is if standards are not as responsive for women, that we are going to be perpetuating inequality just through the regulations that we have. And so I know that might seem a little bit abstract. So let me explain with an example, and I'm going to use an example of something that's become all too familiar to us lately and that's face masks. And so we've got these face masks. Now medical face masks are based on the measurements that you would have for a 20-year-old American male soldier. That doesn't fit a lot of women very well. It doesn't fit a lot of other ethnic groups very well. And so, what we see is that these medical grade face masks are not as responsive to people. And it's meant that women in particular have been at greater risk during the COVID pandemic, particularly those that work in healthcare settings. It's not just face mask. We've seen this with crash test dummies. So crash test dummies are also based on male anthropometry. And what that means is that women are at a higher risk of being injured or killed when they're in a car accident. Because these crash test dummies are not designed for them. So we've got all these examples that we can see in specific sectors and with specific products, but it can actually be broader than that. And so you mentioned some of the research that I did. So a couple years ago, now I did this study where we wanted to look at the relationship between standards and health and safety. The idea being that standards should protect health and safety. And so what we did with this research is we looked at the relationship between participation in standards development and the number of people that die as a result of unintentional injuries or accidents across countries. And we control for some variables that might be kind of confounding. We did find that there's a relationship, but it turns out that that relationship depends on your gender. And so for countries that are more involved in standards development, they have less men dying as a result of unintentional injuries. So, standards are helping to protect men. When we look at the results for women, there is no such relationship. So, it means that involvement in standardization is not protecting women as well as it is protecting men. And that's why it matters.

[00:04:57] Host: Hmm. And what is the current situation? You alluded to looking at different countries and the involvement. With respect to countries and how are you now challenging this gender bias or inequity?

[00:05:12] Michelle Parkouda: Yeah, so I think one of the greatest things that's happened is, um, the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe, they have their gender declaration for gender responsive standards and standards development. It was released in 2019. And currently there are over 80 signatories. And so, it has been signed by a number of countries and organizations all across the world. What's important about this, this gender declaration is that it asks the signatories to develop a gender action plan. So it's not enough to just sign and say, oh yeah, we agree with this. We actually want them to say, what are you going to do about it? So, the Standards Council of Canada, we've developed an action plan. You know, Rwanda has developed an action plan. A lot of countries have the, the Bureau of Indian Standards, their plan emphasizes improving representation, and also ensuring that standards are gender responsive. There's also regional bodies that are getting involved. And so there's increased awareness, at least at the organizational level about the importance of this and there's activities that are happening.

[00:06:09] Host: And what are the big challenges despite the action plans now there, out there for everyone. And where will we see the most success with changing the status quo as it is today?

[00:06:19] Michelle Parkouda: Mm-hmm . So I'm going to focus on two challenges and then I'll tell you what progress I think we've seen with those. So, the first is around awareness. And so yes, we are seeing things happening at an organizational level. However, sometimes that awareness is limited. And so, uh, about a year ago, ISO and IEC did a survey of their technical committee chairs. So, these are people that are responsible for overseeing the development of standards. When they surveyed them 75% of respondents said that they had not considered gender in the work of their committee. There was this perception that standards are neutral. That gender doesn't matter, that safety doesn't distinguish. And hopefully, you know, if you weren't already convinced you are now that there are safety differences when it comes to standards. And so, we have this large portion of people that still see that standards, you know, that gender doesn't matter. That's what they think. More personally, I can tell you that the first time I gave a presentation on this topic in my organization, I had somebody approach me afterwards. And they said that when they saw that, what I was going to be speaking about, they kind of rolled their eyes and thought, oh, this is another feminist rant and thought that there was no relevance to it. She said, and this is, it was important to note, this is a woman. And so, women and men can also have these both, this perception that standards are gender neutral. And so, she said to me that after the presentation, she realized that, oh, this does matter. There's something to it. So I appreciated the first that she had the courage to tell me this and that also that I was able to change her perceptions of it. Because clearly if she thought this, she wasn't the only one. It's something I've seen. This is where I've seen progress. So, within my organization, you know, At first, it would be me or maybe one of my colleagues that would really speak up on this issue. More recently, I've been in meetings where something will be said, and somebody else will mention the gender considerations before I can. And that's how I can see progress. There's this increased awareness and other people are taking this cause up. The second challenge I see is around representation. And so, standards are developed by committees of experts. And we know that when more women are involved in the development of a product, it makes it more gender responsive. Because we're relying on experts. We often are limited by the labour force. And so in countries, in particular where women do not participate in the labour force as much, it can be harder to get those experts on committees. This can also be limited by the sector. So we have certain sectors where women are not as likely to be employed. And so that means it's going to be harder to attract women in those fields. So representation is an issue that we need to address. But this is something that can be addressed. And so, the, what there is happening more is that there's been better tracking of this information for a long time standards. Developers had no idea who was involved in the development of their committees. They didn't know what the gender composition was. There's still a lot of missing data there, but it is something that is starting to be tracked. And as we do that, we're gonna be in a better position to see if we're making progress, to see which initiatives work. And that's where I can see us having some, seeing some benefits.

[00:09:16] Host: So, awareness and representation. What is the payoff then to make standards, gender responsive?

[00:09:24] Michelle Parkouda: So, everyone benefits from this. And so I'm going explain with some research that I did that has nothing to do with standards, and then I'm going bring it back to standards. So, a couple of years ago, actually, when I was a graduate student, I was having a conversation with my supervisor, and it was during the Olympics. And he said to me, he said, I'd rather live in a country that does well in the Paralympics rather than the Olympics. and, you know, it was just a discussion that was not tied to research, but I thought, huh, that's a really interesting idea. And so I gathered some data and thought I'm going to see if I can demonstrate that it makes a difference. And it turns out that countries that do well in the Paralympics have higher life expectancy and greater happiness for their population as a whole, even after you control for other variables. There's no such relationship for the Olympics. So, what it means is that doing well in the Paralympics is going be better for the population as a whole. So, I told my supervisor this, and he's like, that's great, but you could see the hesitation. He said, you know, it's not sufficient for a publication." And that was of course the goal. And so, I needed to have some other way of replicating this. And so what I decided to do is I looked at soccer. So, with the World Cup and we can see, and because soccer is such an international sport, we looked at how the women do versus how the men do. And we found the same thing. That how the women performed in soccer was more associated with the life expectancy and happiness for the country as a whole was how the men did, had no impact on it. What that research shows is that the treatment of marginalized and disadvantaged groups has benefits for society as a whole. And so now if we bring it back to standards, we can think there's an example of exposure to radiation. And so it turns out that with similar levels of exposure, women actually have a two times higher rate of developing cancer. If we were then to reduce those levels for women, we would get an even further decrease for men. So, both are going to benefit by these reductions. I've focused here on health and safety, but there's greater economic opportunities for women have also been shown to improve productivity and economic growth, which again, benefits both men and women. So, when we have gender responsive standards, it's not just women that benefit, everyone benefits.

[00:11:36] Host: And clearly your study is leading to my next question. So how important is both structural as well as systemic change?

[00:11:44] Michelle Parkouda: So, this is really important because how gender equality is framed. It has an impact on what solutions are considered to be effective. And so , when gender inequality is framed as an issue of women's empowerment, then the solution is to fix the women. And that's not the issue. The women don't need to be fixed. We have structural and systemic issues. Those are the problems that we're facing. So I lead a team, a project team at the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe, and we've been tasked with developing guidelines and how to develop gender responsive standards. In those guidelines, we emphasize the need for a process to ensure that standards are gender responsive. We argue that every standard for every standard we should look to see if there are gender considerations, we want to start with the assumption that there are gender considerations, because then that will impact the way that we go about it. Standards like other fields have a problem, Andro-centrism. So there's this tendency to see men as being default and representative and what that means is that we end up taking results from male data and extrapolating and saying that it applies to women. As you've seen with face masks and crash test dummies this doesn't work. So, what we need to have is better sex to segregated data. It's going to require more research and some investment and time. But when we do that, and as we go through that process, we will end up in a place where we can have standards that are more gender responsive, and that are better serving women as well as men.

[00:13:08] Host: So, more investment and definitely more support and advocacy. What can we do as a community or as individuals?

[00:13:17] Michelle Parkouda: So, there's a lot we can do as a communities and as individuals. So, I mentioned the guidelines that we've been developing. And when we developed those, we were really conscious of wanting to make sure that there were steps that were practical, that anyone could take. You know, certainly if you belong to a standard development organization, you can make some of those systemic changes and you can make requirements in place that will make things more possible. As an individual. And in particular, as an individual involved in standards development, you can also play an important role. And so we've talked about increasing representation and that's probably a little bit more on those standard development organizations, but then what happens when women are present in meetings? And so we know that in meetings, women tend to be interrupted more. We know that their contributions are often dismissed or undermined, and they're not given as much credit for those ideas that they bring forward. So here is where individuals can make a difference. We can check our behaviour. We can see, are we interrupting? Are we acknowledging all the good work that's being done. We can also make sure that we're helping to amplify voices. And so if a woman has a good idea and we think it's a good idea, then we should say, that's a good idea. And acknowledge that this is, that was the individual that brought that idea forward. These are really simple things that can be done, and it doesn't require a lot of work, but it just requires some conscious thought, and we can see improvements.

[00:14:33] Host: And earlier you alluded to the labour force and greater participation. What would be your advice to many women who are coming into the field or discipline of science and standards?

[00:14:46] Michelle Parkouda: So, I worry, this will sound a little bit trite. So, forgive me if it does. But if I think about myself and I mentioned at the beginning that, you know, I very nearly didn't take this job because I thought I don't really know the area and because I doubted myself. And so I would really encourage women to not doubt yourself so much, um, recognize that you have a lot to bring forward and that you don't have to know everything to be able to make a contribution. I would say. So don't doubt yourself. And then the second thing I could say, if I could, is to be persistent. So the World Economic Forum had their latest release of the gender gap and, and the time that it's going to take to close the gender gap and currently closing the gender gap is 132 years away. And so that requires us to be persistent, to ask questions, to propose solutions, because we wanna move that goal post forward rather than further away.

[00:15:36] Host: And talking about moving goal posts forward. What do you see as next steps? Any exciting projects or new thinking on the horizon for you?

[00:15:43] Michelle Parkouda: So, I am really excited about what's to come next. So we've seen that a lot of international standards development organizations are getting involved, that there is more an awareness and more activity around this topic. We've got the guidelines that I mentioned that there's an advanced copy that's been posted. They're going to have the final version available soon. There's also going to be training and videos that will go along with that. And so I think that there's really some great momentum that has been building, and we are going to see some change and activity in the coming years. The other thing I would say is that it's extending beyond these standards bodies. And so there's been discussions on this topic at the World Trade Organization, trade agreements are getting more involved in this, and that will help, as I said to perpetuate and make sure that gender equality is entrenched within our regulations. And so I think this is a really exciting time to be involved in this, because I think that we are going to see more progress.

[00:16:32] Host: And I think we're all very excited to continue the conversation. Be more persistent in closing that gender gap. Michelle Parkouda. Thank you so much for taking out the time to speak to the Word to the Wise.

[00:16:43] Michelle Parkouda: Thank you very much for having me.